Level 10 degassing issue?

[cphilip]

Put this in field reports but also want to make sure its seen as I wanted some feedback:

Pressure retention when degassing is much higher. And presents a little bit of a problem. I am seeing like 250 - 300 psi still in the line when the system has degassed to a point that it will not shoot. I totally over looked this during install but it persists and was present then as I think back. I originaly thought it was a sticky Macro fitting but now realize It was under that much pressure. Now this is going to be a problem I think we are going to need to work on. Because in further demo last night I chopped my on off pin removing the valve and shot the on off assembly out. Breaking the on off pin!

We think this retention of gas is a by product of design here and can be a problem and require some sort of device like a slide check in the system to allow total degassing. Remember, I am not talking about that little hiss that you get most times but a big one 300 psi is way too much to start taking things apart. During install I was having to use and small box wrench to bleed the macro out. I had thought that was due to set up errors but it presisted even when the lvl 10 was working properly.

So I think its a part of the trade off here then and would like to know what others are seeing. Screw in tank guys will not see this. Quick connect guys are getting a big hiss I bet. Hard line set up guys with macro or SS line will see this i think.

I need for those of you with closed systems and adjustable tanks that have LP side guages to notice for me what pressures you see when degassed.

[brian terry]

well iv seen no prob with my sfl or my nephews retro mag .we both use 68/45 crossfire tanks.iv got a tourny this weekend so if something bad happons ill post.but iv shot over 3500 kicken paintballs in it with no prob or degasing prob at all.

[cphilip]

OK Brian take a look at that LP sided guage for me and tell me what is says when the marker quits firing.

I just moved the Lvl 10 kit over to the RT pro and got 200 psi left when stopped firing. Twice. A little better but still... Perhaps there is an adjustment to get that down a bit? Tom? anyone?

Reason I moved it over is the emag is dead in the water until I can get a new on off lin in it from my little boo boo last night.

[Moats]

Ive noticed this too. With my flatline i would still have alot of non shootable preasure in the gun. I switched to my dynaflow with on/off bleed valve and that releases all the preasure. I wish i could use my flatline grrrr

[cphilip]

Well not to worry we will figure it out. hey thats what Betta testing is all about! :)

You are the third of us to report this now since I brought it up.

One theory I am considering is that we may need to go up one carrier size or next losser. When I first set up i had chosen that one but leaked so I went one tighter. Perhaps I gave up on it too early and went tighter and shouldn't have?Perhaps we chose one that while it works it is a bit too tight? Gonna mess with that idea next.I also emailed Jon and the AGD guys on it. Let see what we can find out.

[mxracer33x]

I tried a looser carrier. All I got was a chopped ball. It let the bolt speed up quicker. I had a 1.5 and it worked well, I was actually thinking of a 1 to soften the hit a bit more but it already seemed a bit "sticky" at times. A spring change might be more likely to help in this situation.

[Lone Gunman]

I've had that problem ever since I got my mag. And I don't even have Lvl 10!
I usually get two or three shots after I shut my flatline off and then there is 200-250 psi left in the line. Then I have to whip out the modified washer or wrench.

[rudy]

all guns really need a bleed system, that is one thing I hate about my flatline 4500 is that it has that really nice on off but i cant bleed the gun I would like for the flatline on off to be redesigned at soem point to bleed off as well. I still usually have about 100 psi left on my retro with out lvl 10. and that is still a problem at times. If you hav lvl to and no bleed valve I suggest you put some pressure on the barrel and get it to leak out the bolt or get a bleed valve of some sort. cooper T used to make one that sat in a 1/8 npt port. or you can get an inline one. I have the same problem with the angel too.

[BlackVCG]

It's called a Quick Disconnect people!

Put it at the valve or at the tank. You can use them on all hose types, they aren't expensive and they bleed all the remaining air in the system.

I'll take a picture of it setup on Macroline. It's not that hard but people still need a picture to understand.

[virus]

welp i just checked mine.... sittin on about 350-375psi in the line after shutting off my flatline and firing till i can fire no more.....

but then again i have q/d on mine with some nice stiff teflon orings in them that were a pain to put in but it is worth it now...

on a good note though... my trigger now stayes pushed out like it is ready to fire so now i can sit here and just pull on the trigger to my hearts content w/o wasting any more air...

what i do know is the next couple of times i go out my flatline and warp will be stayin home... gonna take out my micro out so i can win me some money =) and so even after the tape on the paintball holding it 1/2 way into the breech trick... i'm playin with a 9v revy and stick the blimp on the top and fan the trigger at the chrono knowin that it wont chop.... but that will be a story for another day =)

[cphilip]

That may be the only solution Black but many have not needed one before and are not gonna be ready when there kit is there.

And going to not experience these retained pressures until after they first gas up with it. And degassing occurs a lot with lvl 10 set up so they need to know.

In normal cases Macro alone is a good enough quick connect as the retained pressure is low in the 100 or less range. At 200+ psi and even 300 + is not! And that is brand new.

This becomes a safety issue and a break your on off pin issue that needs to be forwarned and looked into. And perhaps a recommendation before trying installing of a slide check is in order. thats what this beta test is all about. Building on knowledge gained.

[nippinout]

Issues from multiple users during LVL10 testing:

Foamies.

From the testing, some have said that their foamies are coming off. I know my foamie came off when I was dry firing. I found it in my room, where no paint was shot.

Gas retention.

When the gas is shut off, the gun likes to keep some pressure.

There was on instance when I was trying to remove my valve and it would not come off. I was lost as to why, but I removed my intelliframe and rail.

Low and behold, my on/off pin was sticking out of the body. YIKES! I took a pen cap lid and pushed the pin back into place.

After all this, I found a way to relieve this problem.

My set up uses a screw in nitro with uni fill adaptor. I would shut off the fill adapator, and then started to unscrew the tank. When the tank passed the fill adaptor's relief hole, I just pulled the trigger a lot.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. :D

[cphilip]

these look good for the job I guess (the deggas slide check one) : http://www.skanline.com/productspb/co2-quick-dis/CO2_Quick_Dis_PB.html

[Paintballer86]

Originally posted by nippinout
Issues from multiple users during LVL10 testing:

Foamies.

From the testing, some have said that their foamies are coming off. I know my foamie came off when I was dry firing. I found it in my room, where no paint was shot.




It will do tha no matter what.... lvl 10 or not. Just super glue the foamie back on... it is supposed to happen...

and regarding the gas issue... that happens on ALL mags...

[cphilip]

gentelmen we already have a couple of threads going on this not going to allow more...merged this one into the main one

And no this is more than the normal mag hiss. We are not that stupid... :D

Nipping the solution may be as simple and is as adding a slide check but we need to make sure people knwo to do that or they may break something. its possible tom can curb it but not realy a big problem if not. We can just forewarn people to put in a slide check! easy!

[rudy]

I have a QD on both my mags but I and many others like our lines to be short and to the point and on my micromag. you cant get either the qd or the macroline off very easily and the pressure doenst help. I will pull a qd at 100 psi but I dont like to at 2 or 300psi and it just wont happen on several of my guns.

[Arturus]

So... havnig 150-250 psi left isn't normal?

Eh, I assumed it was since the day I bought my RT Pro. I have a SS line and a quick disconnect. It's always been louder than a little 'hiss'. I remember my first time when I pulled my quick disconnect off, and jumped at the sound of the remaining pressure being released. I think I was conditioned rather quickly after that to be extra careful everytime I take off the quickdisconnect; after lowering the pressure on the tank and dry firing my marker.

I guess I'm used to it and so not too worried about it.

What I am worried about is..

"Low and behold, my on/off pin was sticking out of the body. YIKES! I took a pen cap lid and pushed the pin back into place."

That. :confused:

[oldsoldier]

Cphilip, thats what I had to do. My first QD male adapter no longer works, because I was unaware there was that much pressure left in the line. So, I put on a second one. I got it off a couple times by wiggling it, bleeding enough air to disconnect safely. Well, just got back from my pro shop, got a 32 degrees slide check valve...works fine now. Maybe Tom should put that into the installation instructions? Something along the lines of, before beginning installation, you need to have a system to allow bleeding off of gas in the lines. A slide check valve for steel, or a regulator that you can bleed off, whatever. Hopefully, people will read these comments before installing.

[mxracer33x]

After some testing in the last hour, This is what I have found. No matter what spring I used I had pressure in the line after turning it off and firing out what I could. The pressure was proportionate to the spring used. Longer the Spring, the more pressure left in the line.

Shims made no difference in this test. The only time it didnt have any air left after a degassing, was if it had a shim leak to start with.

Without a screw in bottle I found 2 ways to relieve the pressure. Turn out the reg on my flatline till it bled off, or disconnect the quick disconnect using a little force.

I then put in my standarve classic 68 valve and tried the same thing. After turning of the air I got 5 shots and a few small sputters. (with the level 10 I got 1 and occasionally 2) But the pressure was unreadable on the gauge. Upon disconnection the quick disconnect I did get the normal..psst. but not the resounding POW that I got with the level 10.

Here is a pic of the gauge after degassing the mag with my Level 10 ReTro. And the one following is a pic of the male end of my quick disconnect after several 300-400 psi bleedings. Still functionable but not desirable.

[mxracer33x]

Notice the bumps at the right end of the nipple. The left side is smooth. When disconnecting under pressure it mars the nipple.

[cphilip]

Ok well its all workable realy. Something we have contributed to then. Sounds like a degassing slide check might be handy now.

I will say that since moving it over to the Rt Pro the level retained is lower than it was in the emag. 200 twice and 250 once. Seems also the rt pro leaks down faster than the emag. I can wait 10 minutes and it will be down to zero where as on the emag if seemed never to move but perhaps I was impatient and of course that one was like 300 or so.

Anyway I did go down to the one carrier from the 1.5 and still it is working and now I am on the middle cut spring and working waiting to try the longest one (pressure to go on down) but nothing I have done has change retention of air in the line. That seems to be gun specific.

Anyway its not a show stopper its an adjsutment to use this fine mod its great! well worth the trouble of a degas slide check it that turns out to be the best thing to do.

[FatMan]

Not jumping you here dude, but you should edit that with a short explanation of what we're looking at. I know its the male of a QD, but I don't see the damage you are talking about.

On another note, there are high-end QDs designed to not only be a QD, but to hold pressure when disconnected. They are more on the $50-$60 a set range, they are not cheap, but they are probably better built to disconnect under pressure. I've seen folks disconnect them while connected to a bottle under full pressure. They are also a little larger.

Just another data point.

FatMan

[nerobro]

This is the nature of the level 10.... in old mags all you needed was 1-200psi to pop the bolt forward. in the level 10 you need MOST of the shooting pressure psi to push the bolt forward. This is how you get the low force for the bolt... So.. either you need to pull the bolt forward to degass it, or some up with some way of dumping the gas in the lines. Hmmm how would one release spring pressure on the bolt?

And to think i used to complain about he 150 or so psi that used to be left in my mag ;-)

As for you damaging your nipple... here's the trick to that. Push on the hose so that it is no longer locking on the berrings in the quick disconnect. then you can push the ring back just like the gun was degassed, then just be carefull about backing off on the hose. :-)

[cphilip]

Well Skaline makes a degasing slide check for like $15 that is designed to degas the gun side...and since that side would be less than 400 psi should serve the purpose alright.

Interesting last thing I did was go to the longest spring in the rtpro and am getting a little bolt stick now need to play more with it but when I degassed this time it stopped at 400 psi and no amount of urging from the rod on the bolt will make it cycle one more time. So it kinda seems random in a way. But higher at lighter setting. Fortunatly the Pro will leak down in like 15 minutes or so.

[cphilip]

Yes nero it most likely is a side byproduct of the thing. Makes sense and we probably should have anticipated it. But the point that needs to be made is people need to be aware of it. And prepare for it... so...I wanted to report it. Seems now people noticed it but failed to report that. It is kind of important.

[nerobro]

I knew this would be a side effect, given that we're running a heavier spring and a smaller piston in the bolt... that just means that spring can hold the bolt shut at hight pressures. This is why I didn't report it as anything unusal.. It was a given in my mind......

This is really only a big deal for those without screw in n2 systems. if you're running a screw in n2 system, it'll clear itself. If you're running co2, it'll solve itself too.

I suppose it woudl be a good warning to put into the manual..........

[cphilip]

Originally posted by nerobro
I suppose it would be a good warning to put into the manual..........

Yep! Exactly! Least you break your on off pin learning the hard way!!! :(

But it's not a problem...It's an opportunity! How about some AGD level 10 slide checks!!!!! :D

[BlackVCG]

Originally posted by mxracer33x
Notice the bumps at the right end of the nipple. The left side is smooth. When disconnecting under pressure it mars the nipple.

You get what you pay for. Cheap nickel plated QD's like that will wear out. They're too soft.

[CTG]

I have a solution that has been working for me. Use a stick squeegee's other end to push on the bolt and it will bleed off the last of the pressure.

[EnW]

Haha...CTG, you beat me to the post. That is the solution that I found to work also!
It is a bit uncustomary...but it beats taking a chance on marring your gun using a wrench to hold in your macroline fitting.

[AGD]

LVL 10 Users,

I have read all the posts for residual pressure and the results make sense.

The bolt acts like a cork holding back pressure in a bottle. When you fire the marker the air pressure pushes out the "cork" BUT the mainspring is now holding the cork in with more force than before. This results in more residual pressure in the system.

In other words the fact that the LVL10 mod causes your gun to stop shooting abruptly at the end of the tank and the gun holds more residual pressure is the result of the same thing. This is all caused by the stronger mainspring.

My personal opinion is that removing a macro line from a fitting is a poor choice to degass a gun. I would recomend everyone use some type of degassing fitting to loose all the pressure before dissasembly. Most people with screw in tanks will not have a problem. The others will just have to get a degassing fitting because this effect is a normal part of the LVL 10 operation.

We didn't see it here because we use degassers on our lines. Overall I see this as the only hiccup so far in the LVL 10 testing.

I should warn everyone that the Retro Valve and RT Valve will hold residual pressure even with the air source removed. You should NEVER remove your valve and mainbody together and then pull out the valve. This can cause the on/off assembly to shoot out at high speed. By removing the valve while the mainbody is still attached to the rail the system will degass properly. This is the best reason to NOT ADJUST YOUR TRIGGER ROD!!

Besides this I don't have any other solutions to the residual pressure problem. You just can't shoot it down to nothing with this new setup.

AGD

[mxracer33x]

Thanks Tom
The level 10 kit works flawlessly in all other aspects. I think we all just wanted to be sure we werent missing something, and at the same time, make others aware of the proper way to release the residual pressure.

Once again, thanks for a great product and your continued support of your users.

[echoes]

Originally posted by AGD
This is all caused by the stronger mainspring.


Am I the only one who is successfully running level 10 with the original mainspring? Mine has been running beautifully... bouncing off of paint, squeegees, fingers, etc. :)

I haven't noticed this problem because so far I've only used it with my PMI screw in tank. But I use a proconnect with my Armageddon anyways so I'm not really concerned.

[cphilip]

No Arno your not...in fact I think all of us STARTED our set up with the stock and moved on. But for most I should think the stock would be a nice conservative way to go. But many of us because this is a beta test wanted to run through the full range of settings for the reports back to Tom.

Those of you talking about pushing on the bolt to release all of the gas...not going to get it. I tried. Many times with my wood dowel. Could not get it to do this. How its working for you I just do not knows. Gas is only releases when the bolt is moving partialy forward not when its fully retracted. Perhaps your managin to get it to move forward somehow. But I think this is a poor choice when better solutions exist.

As we all have discovered those of us with hard line setups are going to need to degas with some kind of device. We got by for a long time "cheating" (if you will) by using macro and regular quick connects. But should not continue with this practice much longer with Lvl 10. Cheating on 50-100 psi was alright. Cheating with 200-400 is not. So now we know.

Good stuff realy I think. Remember this is a Beta test! We are discovering new things. Fun too I might add.

[FreshmanBob]

any recommended devices?

[cphilip]

Look back up in the thread Freshman. I put one in for the Skanline ones. Click on the degasing slide check one. Only like $15 for the nickel. Proconnects are good but pricey. remember some slide checks are not degasing slide checks. Get one that degases

[FreshmanBob]

o ok thanks phil

[ELLAS]

I dont have the level 10 mod but...
i use a remote line to run my retro and yes there is a problem with pressure. To fix this i have a slide check built into the remote line and a small flick release all pressure quick and easy..no problems.

[LittMag]

Ok, I just want to double check, (I haven't gotten my lvl 10 kit yet) but this is only an issue for non-screw in Nitro Tanks.
If you run CO2 you should be fine b/c in order to remove the pressure you have to "break the circuit" by removing the CO2 bottle.

[FrAuStY]

Here's a link to the De-gas valve metioned..
http://www.skanline.com/productspb/co2-quick-dis/CO2_Quick_Dis_PB.html It's 14.95 and it's ONLY A DEGAS VALVE....not Degas+quick disconnect. That one 20$ and you can see it from that link. :D I gotta order one and some other stuff.. oh well :) All in the name of AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE...at least thats what ricers say :)

[Doobie]

I'm a dumb grunt here and pictures speak louder than words. Could someone who has a bleed with macroline pleaase take a pic of the attachment and post it. I have macro coming from a Nitro-duck minireg. I appreciate any help.
:confused: :D

[Russ]

Well, this is how it's working for me...

Long silver spring
#2 carrier
2 shims

When I shut the air off (68/4500 Flatline) I fire a few dry-fire shots to release pressure. Then the gun just "bleeds out" any residual pressure. The hissing sometimes starts right away, and lasts only a second or 2. Sometimes it retains pressure for quite a while. I do have a Q/D, to release pressure in the line (and mke disassembly easier).

[davej946]

Hey Phil,
After checking it out, I found that I have 350-400psi left in my lines. That's on a ReTro Valve with the original spring (the one that came with the ReTro) coming out of a 68/3000 Flatline.

Hope this helps ~ Dave

[cphilip]

Originally posted by drx975
Well this isnt good news at all....

So with this setup am I going to experience this problem of high pressure left in the gun?

Thanx

ps: Tom fix this plz I realllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyy want this mod :(

What in the world are you going on about! Did you not read any of the thread at all? You have a screw in tank. Just unscrew it and you will have removed all the residual pressure! There is nothing to fix! It works!!!! just that some of us will have to do a better job with our set ups to degas is all. Please read the entire thread before you go running around like a chicken with your head cut off. All this thread was supposed to accomplish was to make people aware of the higher pressures left in the marker. Go ahead and get the darn thing. It works. Just unscrew your tank!

[drx975]

Alright man sorry, jeez im sorry. I haven't ever used a non-screw in tank so I didnt realize it. Now that I think about it I guess that was a really stupid question. :(

[cphilip]

No...it realy wasn't a stupid question...but it was one that was answered already if you had read this thread! :D

[cphilip]

I am unsticking this thread ad a link to it is now in the "Classic: All LVL 10 Info Here" thread.

[FrAuStY]

I have found a simple...no cost solution to the degassing issue for fixed tanks...using macro or microline. If you have a <a href=http://www.tecratools.com/pages/service/graphics/35108l.gif target=crimper>butt connector crimper</a> like the one shown. (yes there are things called butt connectors) If you notice... you can loosely grip the macro/micro line with the crimper while using it as leverage to bleed the line. I used it to setup my level 10 as I don't have fittings for my degas valve I bought for fie dolla! (make you holla!). Anyway...its a temporary solution to a permanent product of the low impact bolt system. Anyway figured it'd save you some fittings... just remember... don't squeeze the crimper too hard, let slide along the gas line and depress the fitting seat. Works wonderfully.

BTW.. MY LEVEL 10 ROX!!

[TransMan]

could someone please tell me if this www.paintballgear.net/039-5500-3.html (http://www.paintballgear.net/039-5500-3.html) slide check bleeds the airout of the gun? thx

[TransMan]

i would really like it if some one would answer my above question thx

[Top Secret]

Yes, that will bleed the air out. I recommend Pro-Connects. Mine has worked fantastic. Another idea, on my Conquest tank that I use with my cocker setup, by shutting off the tank, it bleeds out all the air in the gun and line. Just a feature that I liked about it. For other air tanks(that can actually power the Lvl 10, just get a pro-connect or slidecheck.

[Shirow]

How do other tanks connect then? I thought all tanks screwed in. Sorry if this is a dumb question ;)

[manike]

proconnect! It's the best thing I have added to my guns since level 10! thanks a huge bunch to Tunaman who got them for me (he can get them for anyone). You can't get them over here easily (I've certainly never seen them often here) but they are worth every penny.

here's a pic on my gun...

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/proconnect1.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~Manike/proconnect2.jpg

in fact they are so good I may go start another thread on them :)

manike

[hitech]

Originally posted by Shirow
How do other tanks connect then? I thought all tanks screwed in. Sorry if this is a dumb question ;)

Adjustable tanks usually do not screw in. They connect via a hose. You can see most of it in the link to my marker in my signature.

[Shirow]

Oh, I see.. thanks!

[Doobie]

The guys at Planet were able to get there hands on a old but un-used Venom hardline Deluxe for me. It has a bleed built into it and the pipe looks very clean running from my vert adapter to my vavle. Gets rid of that "hose everywhere" look that mags are notorious for.:cool: