40 balls per second on Spyders... ?

[Arturus]

I found this at PBnation.

"6) The gun will fire faster than any hopper can feed paint, so rate of fire is not a concern. When a spyder is allowed to go full cyclic it will cycle at more than 40hz. This would be 40 balls per seccond. If you're having troubble fireing fast, it's not the guns fualt. (yes that is faster than a RT, yes that makes angels look sad, and yes, all spyder/piranha/JT/raptor/f1/vm-68 type blowbacks are about the same)"

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?threadid=42392

I'm guessing if there's any truth to that, it's with major shootdown and horrible consistency? Just looking into low-end/entry type markers for friend(s), and ran into that.

The moderator posted the FAQ thread - he sounded honest and reliable, just wanted to confirm it with the forum here.

[FrAuStY]

My brother and I did that with my spyder... WE just removed the sear from the trigger guard... pull the hammer back and let it rip... it was going so fast I could do nothing but let it drain about 8 ounces of co2 out of my 20oz before it finally stopped. It was wild... like holding a machine gun with infinite shells. I'm sure I could have stopped it...but it was too much fun. Anyway..that is a valid statement butt you're right about the consistency thing...the hole bottom line setup was frozen...after it froze the gu started firing real farty. I don't belive its a good idea to run it that way either... I had to replace my spring as I guess it got hot...next time I chronoed it it was shooting 180 instead of 280 :eek:

*EDIT* - This is only Cycles per second...not BPS.. in my eyes..cycles means full motion of firing mechanism... from rest to firing to re-cocking back to rest with no paint! BPS would be the same...only shooting paint. In my experience this was simply cycles... I don't know exactly how fast but it was up there...I mean.. it felt like the gun was vibrating... Anyway...I replaced my spyder with a mag so what does that tell you? I got inconsistent velocties with 10 bps.. lol imagine what 25-30 would be like.. 280-160-180-140-160-180-100-150 lol you get the idea!

[wes]

for my spyder i put another pin inside the sear and it was f/a and i made a recording of it. CAtch me on aim to hear it

[FeuerFri]

actully, it may be a lil streached truth, but i had a spyder flash that i could out shoot my revvie 12vlt easy in just semi. with the right mods, no shoot down. i had a lp set up on my old gun, had a high flow open face bolt, a black ice reg, high flow valve and valve pin assembally, and a drilled out v/a, and that puppy ripped like no ones bisnuess(sp?). i would say 15-20bps is a reasonable claim for right set-up. i have also seen ppl who have fit angel electronics inside of em1's.

[RT_Luver]

can you say SHOOTDOWN. dude, that is TOTALLY BS.

['Mag]

I made a full auto sear for the Spyder. It has the same dimensions as the normal sear, but instead of a slot it just has a hole. This stops the sear from sliding off the trigger (thus recatching the striker), so if you hold down the trigger it shoots full auto, but when you let go it stops. The cycle rate is very fast (if my microphone worked I'd record it and find out how fast it's really going), but I think it's well over 20bps. I could try it with the Halo B and see if it's aournd 22bps, but that'll have to wait for a time when I have extra paint sitting around. I'm sure I could at least get some crazy fast bursts. If only I had a digital camera.......

[Arturus]

This thread wasn't started to challange, or have a debate about which gun can cycle/shoot the fastest.

Rather to gather and confirm what's true, so I can have a general idea of how Spyders will/can operate under the right conditions.

Friends deciding on either a Spyder or Tippmann - though he seems to be leaning towards the Spyder early on.

Anyway, I didn't want there to be any room for this thread to suddenly turn into an argument and/or flame. If any objections, I'd rather have a 'discussion'.

Thanks for the responses so far.

[paintbattler]

thats a bunch of crap..it will be lucky to get 10 bps

[DarkPhoenix]

We have to remember that the author of the aforementioned post said "cycle". I would have to make an educated guess and say that this is achieved without firing paint. Now the facts that he mentioned about the RT valve were also true but, unless I am mistaken, he failed to mention that the results were attained by actually firing paintballs (by forcefeeding them, true but nevertheless) without measurable shootdown.

The "cyclic rate" of any firearm, unless I am wrong, is measured by the speed of how many times weapon can complete a load and fire cycle per second.

The information extended by the linked post was very well-written, but unless I am wrong, the speeds to which a spyder can achieve a "rate-of-fire" or "cyclic rate", in which the marker is shooting paintballs, have not been tested, to my knowledge. In my own opinion, I am sure should the spyder undergo the same testing which the RT valve underwent, the results would not come close to that of the RT, the rate-of-fire might come close but with what ammount of shootdown?

Anyway, it is not the gun, it is the person behind the gun.

[Butterfingers]

Read my post in PBN.

[Arturus]

FrAuStY and Wes -

Thanks, I'm getting an idea of how the high 'cycle' (couldn't come up with a clearer term) rate is achieved, under certain circumstances.

DarkPhoenix and Butterfingers -

Thanks for the clarifications, in uses of terms and such. Makes it easier for me to explain or try to on how the Spyder can perform.

Call it a bad habit, but when I read posts on other forums and unsure of the answer, I come here to confirm it.

;)

[Top Secret]

Cyclic rates in firearms are typically in Rounds Per Minute as to actually let you see the complete difference in speed clearly.

RT Valve(26bps) = 1560 rounds per minute without shootdown
Emagnum(30bps)= 1800 rounds per minute
Angel@13bps = 780 rounds per minute

16bps = 960 rounds per minute

15bps = 900 rounds per minute

It lets you clearly see that the mere difference of one bps, is actually an additional 60 rounds into the air every minute.

As for 40 bps, 2400 rpm. All I can say is...

Yeah right...

['Mag]

The trigger mechanism would definitely slow down the rate of fire in a Spyder. Just having the sear slide back and forth, then catching and releasing the striker would greatly effect the possible rate of fire in semi. I bet it would at least cut the rate in half.

If any of you have shot one of those cheap electro Spyders that Kingman is selling now, you probably would have noticed that the supposed 13bps in full auto is considerably slower than I can fan in semi with my Hyperframe. I'd say it's somewhere's around 10 bps, maybe a little more. I think that this is about all the faster that the solenoid can activate the sear.

But in straight cylces per second I bet the Spyder can go pretty fast. Once you start using the sear and trigger mechanisms it really slows down.

[RRfireblade]

I would say no dice to 40bps.I have a Piranha ProTsG3.It has all the typical LP mods and fires 285fps @ 300psi.Thanks to PMI,it has a full auto option right from the factory.WHATT?? you say.Piranha's,maybe not all I don't know,have a sear release right on the grip for field stripping and guess what depress that and pull the trigger and its full auto baby!You wanna see the electro boys scratch thier heads in the middle of the game and nearly lose thier minds!Anyway,firing paint it won't do over 20-22bps for like 1/2 a second before it's starving(and pinching but it rarely ever chops believe it or not).With out paint the best I can figure use basic audio analysis,it's close to 26 or 28.Thier's just to much recipricating mass in the bolt and hammer to get much faster and then it'll only flow so much air through the valve.And trust me,I got that thing opened up as much as humanly possible without threat of mechanicle failure.

Anyway thats my experiance,

Jay.

P.S. Having both a Shutter(my Bro) and the ProTsG3 I believe the Piranhas are machined better with tighter tolerances and are overall better guns and should have more potential.But whatever that means.

[RRfireblade]

Here's a pic.And you of course it wasn't with that hopper,it just looks cool in the pic.

[SIGSays]

it does go about 40.. like a jack hammer... but if you fed it paint... chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop chop

but it's a little lower than 40 too fast to count

[Curly]

LOL that would be soooo funny to see. But yeah there is no way it could feed at 20 a second. That thing would be an even bigger blender then my old mag with hyperframe.

[InfinatyBPS]

I got my raptor with a new trigger spring to 9-11 bps once, with paint. No chops, it was great, I had a wave file of my shooting it but I think I lost it in my comp change, but I may have posted it here somewhere, if someone dosen't beleive me do a search from a while ago and you will find it, acutaly if someone does have time find it for me please :)

[Timmee]

it may be able to get to 40 cps, but not 40 bps. In a full auto mode, the bolt won't come back far enough to chamber a ball. You'll more than likely get chops, pinches, and misfires.





Scares the crap outta unsuspecting people, though. :D

[cphilip]

If you can prove to me it will shoot a clean 40 BPS I will kiss your behind and give you half a day to draw a crowd! :eek:

[314159]

i have been working with nerobro to see how fast we could get a blowback to cycle at reliably. there is a thread going in deep blue documenting the progress. right now it is at 20 balls per second, this is with the sear catching every time with time to feed with the gun firing for aprox 5 seconds.

either thursday or this weekend, i will adapt one of my custom electro boards for a popular paintball gun for the blowback, this will give me total controll for all timing, and let me trip the sear as fast as i want to and see how long the gun can keep up.

when we reach the point that we reach the limit of the gun, i have a couple tricks in mind to get it up a little higher.

[314159]

cphilip, we might have to take you up on that offer ;)

[cphilip]

I knew you would try!! :D

[314159]

"the only difference between insanity and genious is sucess" ;)

[cphilip]

yes and I am betting you are insane!

[AcemanPB]

yeah my old spyder did 40bps all the time, when i ran out of Co2! everyone knows that noise

[314159]

but i was supposed to tell you my evil plot first!

the faster paintball guns shoot, the greater the volume of paint produced, and the cheaper the paint will cost per ball. and the cheaper stock class play becomes. ;)

soon everyone will play stock class, yes stock class. >:)


in reality i am just dooing it because it can be done.

[nerobro]

I'm the moderator who posted that in the FAQ.

right now, 314159 and I have a spyder that's cycling 20bps f/a And has quite a bit to spare.

so long as the spyder has enough air being fed to it, it will be kicking the hammer back far enough to feed a ball. But at 40bps there just isn't time to feed.

the claim is no different than the emag doing 30bps video that's out there. (actually.. the emag which holds it's sear down for 40ms... well do the math there, they had to change the sear duration)

So. FOR SURE, We know the gun can do 20. That post that said 10 doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

RTfireboy. Your LP mods on your pirhana will only hinder the guns ability to cycle fast. The pirhana also has a fatty striker which is heavier and will slow down the cycle rate.

If it says anything the dragun we're using is a fatty striker dragun (the new draguns are slim) and we're still getting 20 ;-) I'll talk to 314159 about gettingn an audio file of the gun going cyclic.

the 40bps was the nubmer I was given a coupple years ago. I have never gone to try and firm it up becuase paint couldn't be fed more than 15-18bps at the time anyway. all I needed to know was the gun was a whole heck of a lot faster than that.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by nerobro
I'm the moderator who posted that in the FAQ.

right now, 314159 and I have a spyder that's cycling 20bps f/a And has quite a bit to spare.

so long as the spyder has enough air being fed to it, it will be kicking the hammer back far enough to feed a ball. But at 40bps there just isn't time to feed.

the claim is no different than the emag doing 30bps video that's out there. (actually.. the emag which holds it's sear down for 40ms... well do the math there, they had to change the sear duration)

So. FOR SURE, We know the gun can do 20. That post that said 10 doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

RTfireboy. Your LP mods on your pirhana will only hinder the guns ability to cycle fast. The pirhana also has a fatty striker which is heavier and will slow down the cycle rate.

If it says anything the dragun we're using is a fatty striker dragun (the new draguns are slim) and we're still getting 20 ;-) I'll talk to 314159 about gettingn an audio file of the gun going cyclic.

the 40bps was the nubmer I was given a coupple years ago. I have never gone to try and firm it up becuase paint couldn't be fed more than 15-18bps at the time anyway. all I needed to know was the gun was a whole heck of a lot faster than that.

The stock electronic duration of an e-mag is 30 ms. The E-magnum was set to a sear pulse length of 10ms with a 33 ms holdoff time for 30 cps. It was locking with each shot. This must be the case because when the sear is unlocked the on/off pin is also closed. In order for any air to enter the chamber for the next shot the sear must lock.

My point was when a spyder goes full cyclic the bolt does not open all the way. It oscilates with a set amplitude less than a full cycle.

The easiest way to find the true theoretical cyclic rate of the gun is to find out how much time in ms it takes the gun to complete 1 full cycle. You divide that number by 1000ms and you get the max cyclic rate of the gun.

If the cyclic rate exceeds this number you know for sure the gun is producing partial cycles.

[nerobro]

well.. responce number one is DUH. Excuse the additude, but you're coming into this without data on your own part. ... and you're making assumptions that I'm "cheating" to get my numbers. i'm not, and I'm willing to go get more data to back it up.

So long as the gun is getting full pressure, it will cock back all the way. the gun can't "half cycle" so long as it's getting enough pressure.

Now, what you're thinking is when you hear a spyder fart on the field. that's usually due to a lack of pressure. that lack of pressure makes the hammer not come back all the way, and no, the gun doens't finish cycling.

It would be nice to have a number for how long a cycle takes on a spyder. That would probally be more accurate than having it go full cyclic for a seccond or so. Again, we'll have more solid numbers for you later. i'll tell you right now, i'ts much higher than 20 :-)

so on the e-magnum you can set sear duration... setting it down toe 10ms may cause problems.... According to tom at the tech sessions the hyperframes use a pulse 6-9ms and it can cause issues with eating up the sear or bolt. (not enough time for the bolt to stop bouncing)

[Raptor3359]

i did that fullauto thing RRfireblade was talking about with my piranha a while ago. did it with out paint because it looked cool. I tried with it with paintballs adn the first ball that was in the chamber shot but no balls even loaded after that, no chops, no shot, nothing it just cylced. Wont that mean that that the bolt wasnt coming back for the ball to enter the chamber? there was enough pressure, it was 95 out and i have an x-chamber and a 20oz tank.

[314159]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
The easiest way to find the true theoretical cyclic rate of the gun is to find out how much time in ms it takes the gun to complete 1 full cycle. You divide that number by 1000ms and you get the max cyclic rate of the gun.

If the cyclic rate exceeds this number you know for sure the gun is producing partial cycles.

i suppose i can whip out the storage oscilliscope tomorrow and rig something up, not going to have a chance today.

if that dosen't work well, the way i had originally planned it was to adapt this board i made for another gun for the blowback. the existing frame pulls the sear for 6ms. with the asumption that the gun is cycling lower than 167 cycles/second (this is proven because if it were greater than 167 bps, then the gun would fire multiple times when the sear was down for 6ms). so i would crank up the rof from 20 by 1 bps, fire for about 5 seconds, and listen for any irregularities in the sound. (skipping a shot... by making the sample time long enough, we can rule out the bolt moving back past and forward again after the sear is allready droped).

another idea that might work, i could hook up a mic to the input of my sound card, record a couple shots, note the amplitude. with the assumption that if the hammer does not go back all the way, it will hit the hammer softer, and make a quiter sound when it fires. then i could pull off the frame, pull the cocking thing back, let it go fa for a while, and look at the amlitude of the pops that it would make while firing, and compare em to the amlitude of the single shot pops.

[314159]

Originally posted by nerobro
So long as the gun is getting full pressure, it will cock back all the way. the gun can't "half cycle" so long as it's getting enough pressure.

Now, what you're thinking is when you hear a spyder fart on the field. that's usually due to a lack of pressure. that lack of pressure makes the hammer not come back all the way, and no, the gun doens't finish cycling.



we could also measure the pressure, and assume the gun is making a full cycle unless the pressure drops. i wonder what thoes nice liquid filled guages go for?

[Aranarth]

Way to do this is hook it up to a scuba, like with the emagnum at 30 bps. Record what spyder internals you are using, since it has so many (this includes manufacture and tension of springs). Make sure all the flow restrictions are removed, since spyders have a lot (those va's have tiny holes. . .) Then install the sear override already discussed. Get a digital tachometer. Aim it crosswise at where the the cocking rod is. Latch down the trigger, and read the tach.
The higher input pressure, and the stiffer springs (both main spring and valve spring), the faster it will cycle. I'd say get that scuba down to 1000 psi, open it all the way, and let it rip to empty.
That will tell you how many times a spyder or spyder clone will cycle. Within a good factor, close to its max. Of course, this is full auto, spyder style. Override the sear, so you have no sear cycle time to consider. You just gotta get something to force feed balls. Use a lower input pressure or weaker main spring to lower the cycle time to whatever your feed system can handle. Use a lot of spring swapping to get it within reasonable fps now. Thats the hard part.
Now if I just had access to a scuba tank, and a digital tach.
If someone does this, record the sound profile, or take a pic of the tach display for all you non-believers. I bet the spyder clones do higher than 40 though. Of course, paint soup is for dinner. :)
-AranarthX

[DarkPhoenix]

It is not that I don't believe a spyder can cycle at 40 cps. I just don't believe it can achieve a ROF even close to that number. It would be extremely hard to prove it anyway as I do not believe there is a force feed system out there that could supply the necessary feed speed to prove it.

[Butterfingers]

Woah, hold on a sec there. Not out to make enemies just sparking a little debate.

:)

A full blast of air may make the hammer go back all the way at the expense of some speed. When the bolt is not half cycling the distance it has to cover now increases in order to perform a full cycle.

Ocilatory motion follows similar patterns and physycal laws as rotational motion. If you have a string and you spin it around in a circle with a radius of 10 cm if you increase the radius while the string is still in motion the velocity will still be the same but the distance it has to cover will increase and the cycles/revolutions per second will decrease.

I have had my E-magnum on 10 ms for a few hundred thousand dry fires and shots with no problems. Seems the geometry of the e-mag sear is "mechanically correct" The sear and bolt wear arises no concern. The RT bumper also remidies much of the bolt bounce. The Hyperframe and boo yah frames replace the RT bumper with a cheap plastic washer.


Originally posted by nerobro
well.. responce number one is DUH. Excuse the additude, but you're coming into this without data on your own part. ... and you're making assumptions that I'm "cheating" to get my numbers. i'm not, and I'm willing to go get more data to back it up.

So long as the gun is getting full pressure, it will cock back all the way. the gun can't "half cycle" so long as it's getting enough pressure.

Now, what you're thinking is when you hear a spyder fart on the field. that's usually due to a lack of pressure. that lack of pressure makes the hammer not come back all the way, and no, the gun doens't finish cycling.

It would be nice to have a number for how long a cycle takes on a spyder. That would probally be more accurate than having it go full cyclic for a seccond or so. Again, we'll have more solid numbers for you later. i'll tell you right now, i'ts much higher than 20 :-)

so on the e-magnum you can set sear duration... setting it down toe 10ms may cause problems.... According to tom at the tech sessions the hyperframes use a pulse 6-9ms and it can cause issues with eating up the sear or bolt. (not enough time for the bolt to stop bouncing)

[nerobro]

I think i have some slightly incorrect data on the emag. I'm going to have to ask a lot of questions later ;-) Again, I'll have some hard data for you later. 314159 and I will be at it as usual.

[314159]

http://9375.adahost.com/prod_det.asp?id=3239

"Emagnum Board - 20BPS anyone F/A
If you don't like being limited, capped or locked into an only semi mode. If you want the flexibility and the power to change every firing mode and characteristic such as dwell time and the like, look no further. Probably the best single performance upgrade for the AGD Emag.
$200.00"

i see 20 bps here, i have seen a emag shoot 20 bps, for everyone here that is saying 30 bps, where are you getting that number from?

[314159]

Originally posted by DarkPhoenix
It is not that I don't believe a spyder can cycle at 40 cps. I just don't believe it can achieve a ROF even close to that number. It would be extremely hard to prove it anyway as I do not believe there is a force feed system out there that could supply the necessary feed speed to prove it.

actually it is not that hard to prove, once i get the time that takes the gun to make 1 full cycle, we can use the loading time of others (the racegun croud looks like a good area) and get a maximum firing rof.

[314159]

anyone have the time that it takes a lvl 10 mag to make 1 full cycle? (sear down, till the time the bolt is back against the bumper) and cycling speeds for other configurations of mags? (w/ superbolt, and without superbolt)

[shartley]

Originally posted by 314159
http://9375.adahost.com/prod_det.asp?id=3239

"Emagnum Board - 20BPS anyone F/A
If you don't like being limited, capped or locked into an only semi mode. If you want the flexibility and the power to change every firing mode and characteristic such as dwell time and the like, look no further. Probably the best single performance upgrade for the AGD Emag.
$200.00"

i see 20 bps here, i have seen a emag shoot 20 bps, for everyone here that is saying 30 bps, where are you getting that number from?
Well, just to help you out....

What you quoted was an "official" statement. Want to see where they got the 30BPS from? Mind you this is full cycling, but no balls since no feeding system can load that fast.. but it IS verified... not just "theory", not "math", not conjecture or "sounds right".... actual proof.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39551

Enjoy.

(Note: for future reference, it is always better to form an argument using more than one source…. And to actually do some research. ;))

(Note 2: Oh, I also like Spyders… my household has TWO of them!:D But they don’t, and never will, hold a candle to my RTP.)

(Added Note 3: We DO have an edit feature here on AO. There is no need to make a totally new post for every new THOUGH… that looks like Pwing. You can respond to MANY people’s posts simply using the quote code.)

[314159]

Originally posted by shartley

(Note: for future reference, it is always better to form an argument using more than one source…. And to actually do some research. ;))


more than one source is not needed when you are currently in the role of devil's advocate. i will put anything here that will prove my point (and tend to omit things that don't). if i would have posted the link that you posted it would not have helped my point.

i figure my role is somewhat of a catalyst, i know that my posts are taking the thread away from it's intended purpose, but in hopes that it stirs up some real numbers that we can benifit from. one of thoes "the means justify the end" deals.


Originally posted by Arturus

This thread wasn't started to challange, or have a debate about which gun can cycle/shoot the fastest.

Rather to gather and confirm what's true, so I can have a general idea of how Spyders will/can operate under the right conditions.

[Butterfingers]

Uh oh! you have disagreed with Shartley prepare for a beat down. :)


Originally posted by 314159


more than one source is not needed when you are currently in the role of devil's advocate. i will put anything here that will prove my point (and tend to omit things that don't). if i would have posted the link that you posted it would not have helped my point.

i figure my role is somewhat of a catalyst, i know that my posts are taking the thread away from it's intended purpose, but in hopes that it stirs up some real numbers that we can benifit from. one of thoes "the means justify the end" deals.

[shartley]

LOL guys.

I might note that I also play the Devil’s Advocate at times (actually quite often), however I would never do so with such an easy thing to prove wrong, or get the correct information. The thing that makes a true Devil’s Advocate so effective is that although someone might disagree with you, they can’t help but go…. “Hmmmmm he does have a point. Damn, he is GOOD!”

And THAT can only be done by research and covering all your bases. So yes, to be an effective Devil’s Advocate you DO need more than one source, or someone more skilled in the art will come in and blow it all to pieces. :D:D:D You can not leave such gaping holes…… because they WILL be exploited. :D

The 30BPS issue is not even close to that since it is being made on a forum that is FILLED with very bright and educated folks, as well as to find the reference was SUPER easy. ;) I do admit that I can see the stirring of the pot thing, being a catalyst, and it is creating good conversation…. But the DA part? Nah, wrong reference, wrong situation. ;)

(but see.. no real "beat down"... HeeHee ;) I am in a nice mood. :D)

[nerobro]

I'm begining to believe 40 (the number that started this) is a LITTLE high. But as we saw Mr pirhana up there was getting 25 from his LP fatty striker gun. we shall see.. we shall see ;-)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by nerobro
I'm begining to believe 40 (the number that started this) is a LITTLE high.

I sure hope so!!!! :eek:

[the jackal]

This is just a little rant but it seems to fit here. Kingman, imo, loves to hype up their products, they even refer to the spring loaded trigger on the sprint frame as a response trigger. Don't you think that if a spyder could reliably shoot even close to 20bps that kingman would be all over that in the marketing department. Also, the sprint frame is limited to 8bps in full auto, most likely so it doesn't reach blender stage and its limited to 13bps in semi but the stupid response trigger makes that very hard to attain. I'll believe it when I see it.

[314159]

Originally posted by the jackal
Kingman, imo, loves to hype up their products, they even refer to the spring loaded trigger on the sprint frame as a response trigger.

almost all manufacturers do this, when the rt came out, smart parts started calling the trigger on their turbo shockers a reactive trigger. when the angels first came out, one of the features they listed was vacume assisted feed....


Originally posted by the jackal
Don't you think that if a spyder could reliably shoot even close to 20bps that kingman would be all over that in the marketing department. Also, the sprint frame is limited to 8bps in full auto, most likely so it doesn't reach blender stage and its limited to 13bps in semi but the stupid response trigger makes that very hard to attain. I'll believe it when I see it.

second of all, i am not using a sprint and i am not using a kingman spyder. i am using a m3 dragun frame with a old rental pirahna and m3's older non elecro dragon upper.

to cover where things are going, yes the dragon frame is limited to 20 bps, i have shot paint out of it at 20 bps, because of some issues with the used rental pirahna and it's many years of luvin, i have moved to using nerobro's dragon upper on the m3 frame. this weekend i am throwing together a new circuit board for the m3 frame to allow me to surpass 20 balls / second, actual firing speed.

[nerobro]

Um... the nubmer didn't come from kingman. It came from another conversation with someone who had some faith in the spdyer design.

[314159]

i just measured the time it takes for the dragun to make 1 full firing cycle. that is the time that it takes for the hammer to go completley forward and completley back.

and the answer is 20 milliseconds

maby we should change this threads title to 50 balls / second on spyders ;)

[nerobro]

Now, allow me to add a little fuel to the fire. this is a fatty striker gun. So this is the SLOWEST they will cycle with stock springs in them. With a red spring and a harder valvespring, you can push the ROF higher. With a slim striker you have less mass so the bolt will travel faster as well.

I think we have a winner :-)

[Kaiser Bob]

If that is indeed the speed they travel at, (50+ bps) they should have a worse reputation then mags for chopping paint. :p

[314159]

lets just say that i have an idea up my sleve that is the equilivant of lvl 10 + ace for a electro blowback =]

[shartley]

How about this? I love Spyders and all, but I don’t personally care if you could prove “mathematically” that they could cycle 50,000 times per second. When you can show me footage of a Spyder shooting anywhere close to what a STOCK E-Mag or RT Pro can shoot with NO shootdown, I will be more impressed.

Show me… that is all I ask. No math, no hype, no chicken chest puffing, show me the actual footage. Also don’t show me a totally reworked marker. Personally when something is worked over to the point that it is only the same product in NAME alone…. you showed me nothing but your ability to CHANGE the product.

And you will never convince me that ANY Spyder compares in overall quality of parts, workmanship, or reliability. This is not saying they are bad markers, because they are NOT. Like I have stated, my household has 2 of them, and they are GREAT! But it would be like going to a McLaren forum and bragging about your Honda Civic.

And WHY are we even discussing this on AO? LOL ;)

[zads27]

Originally posted by 314159
i figure my role is somewhat of a catalyst, i know that my posts are taking the thread away from it's intended purpose, but in hopes that it stirs up some real numbers that we can benifit from. one of thoes "the means justify the end" deals.

other way,
the end justifies the means. ;)

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob
If that is indeed the speed they travel at, (50+ bps) they should have a worse reputation then mags for chopping paint. :p

Not quite my friend. The reason mags were breaking paint wasn't so much chopping, but breaking the next ball in the stack. (at least this was what appeared to be the case in my gun) The spyder's bolt accelerates hard, but it's still picking up speed by the time it passed the next ball in the stack.. appearantly less speed than an automag ;-)

IIRC the bolt on the automag, when all out, can complete the cycle in 10ms (I'm doing math backwards here..... I remember hearing that the bolt and spring combination on the mag led to 100hz or so, I'm open to correction by the ones who know better) so that puts the spyder bolt moving half the speed.

Also note, the limit on the mag is the reg, not the bolt.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by shartley How about this? I love Spyders and all, but I don?t personally care if you could prove ?mathematically? that they could cycle 50,000 times per second.


This isn't math, this is real world :-)



When you can show me footage of a Spyder shooting anywhere close to what a STOCK E-Mag or RT Pro can shoot with NO shootdown, I will be more impressed.


That's the easy part. Give us a number. I've done 15 consistantly. Shootdown is a matter of the regulator. the only reg I can get my hands on that's nearly up to the task is the stab, and that'll only keep up till 20bps or so. that leaves me with running open co2... that might just do it.



show me the actual footage. Also don?t show me a totally reworked marker. Personally when something is worked over to the point that it is only the same product in NAME alone?.


If you look up in the thread, ther'es a guy who tested his pirhana, tricked out, all decked to the gills and he only got 25bps.

This gun is stock internaly. Utterly and totally stock. the only change is the trigger frame, and that doens't effect cycle speed. (every o-ring on the gun is original) In general when people tweak spyder type guns they make them worse.



And you will never convince me that ANY Spyder compares in overall quality of parts, workmanship, or reliability. This is not saying they are bad markers, because they are NOT. Like I have stated, my household has 2 of them, and they are GREAT! But it would be like going to a McLaren forum and bragging about your Honda Civic.


Car analogys don't hold up in paintball discussions. for a lot of reasons. You're also straw manning the point. The point is that the guns can cycle fast. The gun that was tested now, is 100% parts compatable with kingman, but was made in a better factory. There's a reason TK went with the regulated air chamber design, it's always cocked. Even when air pressure is low. That advantage the gun still has. IT also has the build quality and company backing it up. And probally more importantly it has the reg standing tall behind it and keeping it well fed.



And WHY are we even discussing this on AO? LOL ;)

It's a credit to AO that it can happen here. Just don't change the point of the thread. In fact, at this point it could be closed and the point would still be made. Spyder type guns cycle at more than 40bps, and my statement on PBN stands.

[shartley]

I will let you have your fun… it is what your statement MEANS to the general public that is important (not that it is or is not factually correct), and sorry….. it is more than a bit misleading, and I think you know that. And I say this because I believe the average noob will grossly misinterpret what that data translates to in real world marker use.

And that point was clearly lost to you with my last post. I will take my RTP and toss it up against the BEST Spyder you can come up with.. any day. And that is not because I dislike Spyders, or that I am an AGD Drone.. because neither is true. It is because it is just a superior marker.

Yes, the Spyder (and your Spyder clones) will cycle fast…….

[blackmag3]

nerobro either stop talking or SHOW ME proof of ANY spyder or clone shotting at 40bps. i don't think you can do it. heck think , i KNOW you can't do it. all you keep doing is writing "it's the real world" or "math backs my point up". who cares? show me proof or stop typing please. find visual proof dont just type what you think is true. if a spyder can out shoot an e mag then i will willingly eat my shoes.

[nerobro]

Shartley, given that my math with the mag is correct. This places blowback spyder designs in seccond place versus a mag. I think you missed the point of the thread... it was "can the spyder do what he said" and it can.

What else this means is that it puts spyders in with the mag with world class bolt open times, so paint can feed faster.

This also puts the spyder in a funny place. Look at the cost of a spyder, versus that of a mag.

Cost vs. preformance is a scary number right now.

[blackmag3]

my point was until you can SHOW some form of proof that isn't just typed your argument has no effect what so ever. if your so confident that a spyder can do 40 bps then show me some proof. stop typing and start showing. it is so annoying when someone with no visual proof believes anything that they say to be the truth. so in short put up or shut up.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by blackmag3 SHOW ME proof of ANY spyder or clone shotting at 40bps. i don't think you can do it. heck think , i KNOW you can't do it.


50bps is how fast the gun CYCLES. Given the time necessary to feed paint... 35 or so is possiable. IIRC it would take 8ms to load a ball given a properly setup warp, and paint that fit right.

But that was not the point. The point is how fast the gun cycles. The quote on the page refers to worrying about yourself outrunning the gun. that's just NOT going to happen. So long as the gun is faster than you, and faster thanyou can feed paint, the number is irelevant.



all you keep doing is writing "it's the real world" or "math backs my point up". who cares? show me proof or stop typing please. find visual proof dont just type what you think is true. if a spyder can out shoot an e mag then i will willingly eat my shoes.

The only time I talk about real world is in relation to collecting hard data. and we did. And backed up the point.

If you wanna define outshoot.. a spyder can be just as efficant. (Actually with the AKA kit you're talking 130 shots per ounce of co2, but it's low pressure, so I can't state anything about it's cycle speed, other than it uses the same hammer and springs) Accuracy is a matter of the barrel, not the gun. And my spyder was +-2fps. So.. I think we're talking a gun that's JUST behind the mag, and not seriously so. Again I'm still waiting on the bolt cycle time of a mag. it's some single digit number now that i think about it.....

Remember, this thread was NOT started as "the spyder is better than a mag" it was defending my 40hz+ cycle speed of the spyder.

This also does not account for time to load a paintball. Which is the OTHER major factor on the maximum fireing rate of a paintball gun "system" We have video of an emag doing 30. Given the recharge curve of the RT, it's going to be showing some dropoff at that speed. so what we're left with is a gun that SERIOUSLY outruns the gas we can feed it.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by nerobro
Shartley, given that my math with the mag is correct. This places blowback spyder designs in seccond place versus a mag. I think you missed the point of the thread... it was "can the spyder do what he said" and it can.

What else this means is that it puts spyders in with the mag with world class bolt open times, so paint can feed faster.

This also puts the spyder in a funny place. Look at the cost of a spyder, versus that of a mag.

Cost vs. preformance is a scary number right now.

You mean performance minus consistency, reliablility, quality of build, and being able to achieve those ROFs WITHOUT any shootdown. And the BEST customer service in the world.

To me thats worth a couple of hundred bucks.

Its like comparing a Honda Civic to a corvette. Both can be made to do 12's in the 1/4 mile.

The civic will require drag slicks, a stripped interior, a motor that is difficult if not impossible to drive in everyday conditions, it will be somthing that wont pass SMOG. Will require race fuel. And won't be reilable.

The corvette is still streeetable, has better handling, has a broader powerband and overall a better car. All this done with no fuss in factory form.

Nero the recharge curve of an RT sharpens dramatically as the input pressure goes up.

If the input is high enough given the way the RT valve works it might not show shootdown until the theoretical max limit.

[blackmag3]

well hey im done reading this topic. feel free to PM me with a vid showing a spyder cycling 50bps as you say it can. until then think what you want it doesnt make it true. basically it comes down to this , you cant show me proof that your right and it hurts you to admit it. have fun in your fantasy world i'm done dwelling in it. later

[314159]

it will be at least till the weekend till we can crank up the cyclying speed of the gun catching the sear, releasing it, and cycling paint.

i got a 40 hr/week job, and a night calc class right now, and i need to grab some parts from digikey for my custom board that will let me crank up the rof. i am also limited to the hours that i can be noisy in the house.

also, i do not have a webcam or a camera, (can probally get my hands on one) but answer this question blackmag3, why should i go out of my way to impress some unbeliving soul on the net, there will always be thoes, and if that is the case, what makes you so special?

let me say that i also like mags, dispite a bad expierience a while ago with one. but i put that behind me.

[314159]

i am sorry about any coments that are of a pointient nature, it is easy to get deffensive when everyone else seems to be agresive.

[blackmag3]

sorry if i seemed mad or agressive cause that wasnt my intent. and i in no way have a problem with syders. all i am looking for is a way to see with my own two eyes to confirm wether this is right or wrong. heck man seeing is believing. all i want is ot be able to say sorry i am wrong you are right or ha im right you are wrong. i understand people are busy but please when you get the time varify this with a video and post it.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
You mean performance minus consistency, reliablility, quality of build, and being able to achieve those ROFs WITHOUT any shootdown. And the BEST customer service in the world.

To me thats worth a couple of hundred bucks.


Snipped false car analogy

Well, it is a case of you get what you pay for. But I've never had any problems with my spyder type guns. Ever. My mag however........

Shootdown is a problem with the air being supplied to the gun. give the RT reg to a spyder, and you'll see the same lack of shootdown.

why do you think I press so hard for a RT inline reg?



Nero the recharge curve of an RT sharpens dramatically as the input pressure goes up.

If the input is high enough given the way the RT valve works it might not show shootdown until the theoretical max limit.

Well, that;s somethign I didn't think of with the RT, you also end up with a higher and higher temprature/pressure spike (bad news...) But given that issue, and given the same reg, up to the speeds we've seen mags at, the spyder would keep up.

Another thing to note... this WAS NOT a vs. thread untill YOU GUYS made it such. There is also a thread I started in Deep Blue hoping to have a conversation that did not take this route on.

I think this thread should be closed, it's wandered far off topic, and it's quality is decending as more people continue to equate dollar signs with preformance. Just the same as people are now calling the e-mag electropneumatic, when it's just as much a sear tripper as a e99 or dragun.

Blah, now I'm ranting.

Back to the original point. My post on PBN is correct.

[BTAutoMag]

Originally posted by cphilip
If you can prove to me it will shoot a clean 40 BPS I will kiss your behind and give you half a day to draw a crowd! :eek:

ill kiss it too cause its impossible. at 30 bps the bolt is already moving at 124mph any faster and NASA minght be looking for you.

['Mag]

Won't a Mag's bolt travel ~200mph? If you're shooting at 300fps, then that's around 200mph right? Well, since the Mag's bolt is accelerated by the same gas pressure that accelerates the ball, then won't the bolt's peak speed be around 200mph?

Becuase of how the on/off and bolt spring work, won't the on/off close, then all the air gets dumped, and THEN the bolt spring can push the bolt back???? If so, then the bolt should be traveling the full 200mph.

If any of this is totally wrong please explain it too me. I understand that the bolt spring could possibly be slowing down the bolt for half of the bolt's forward travel, but it seems that it wouldn't be.

P.S. If the bolt is going from 0-200(or whatever)-0 in like 6ms or whatever, then what kind of G-forces is this little piece of steel being put to?

[314159]

Originally posted by BTAutoMag
ill kiss it too cause its impossible. at 30 bps the bolt is already moving at 124mph any faster and NASA minght be looking for you.

let's just say that the bolt travels 1 inch

124miles/hour * 5280feet/mile * 12inches/foot * 1hour/60 minutes * 1minute/60seconds = 2182.4 inches/second

seeing the bolt travels 1 inch, the bolt would move an inch in 1/2182.4 of a second or 1 inch in .0004582111 seconds.

that just ain't right

[BTAutoMag]

Originally posted by 'Mag
Won't a Mag's bolt travel ~200mph? If you're shooting at 300fps, then that's around 200mph right? Well, since the Mag's bolt is accelerated by the same gas pressure that accelerates the ball, then won't the bolt's peak speed be around 200mph?

204mph accualy but who's counting

EDIT: that comment i made had no sence behind it...

a ball moves at 204mph assuming that the gun is at 300fps (we know thats hardly ever true because of pressure spikes and such but lets pretend it is) if the bolt itself is moving at 204mph then why would we need air... the bolt would already get the ball up to speed. all the bolt does is seal the chamber so the gas doesnt go up the feed tube. this is the opposite principle behind the EPIC... there is no bolt, only a little door that seals the chamber and the air is all that is pushing the ball.

[BTAutoMag]

Originally posted by 314159


let's just say that the bolt travels 1 inch

124miles/hour * 5280feet/mile * 12inches/foot * 1hour/60 minutes * 1minute/60seconds = 2182.4 inches/second

seeing the bolt travels 1 inch, the bolt would move an inch in 1/2182.4 of a second or 1 inch in .0004582111 seconds.

that just ain't right

im not sure if your math is right.... if it can do one cycle every 1/2182.4 of a second then you should be able to do 2182 bps... i dont think your counting recharge time

[nerobro]

Well... the mag bolt averages 18fps. or about 13 mph. not 200mph.

the spyder would be (given that the bolt's stroke is 1.187" and it takes 20ms to cycle) an average of 9.8 fps. Signifigantly slower than a mag.

[314159]

btautomag, i got that number based off of your bolt speed

either my calculation (which are shown) are wrong, or it could be the bolt speed that was given.

where did you get that number?

['Mag]

Nerebro - If you're just dividing the distance traveled by the cylce time, then this wouldn't be the top bolt speed. This would be the average speed the bolt is traveling at. This includes starting at 0 accelerating, then stopping and accelerating in the opposite direction. So, I figure the top speed would be considerable higher than the average speed.

I think to get a better estimate, then you'd have to take half the cylce time (just the bolt going forward), and then probably take half that time (half the time it's speeding up, then half the time it's slowing down). This should be the average speed it's traveling while it accelerates. I realize this wouldn't be much more accurate, but it (hopefully) shows that the bolt is moving a little faster than 10fps.

Please point out any problems in this theory (I'm sure that it's not airtight, and I'd like to know the correct way). And try to get a better estimate of TOP bolt speed.

[314159]

instead of just splitting it in half. if you subtract the time the bolt has the valve open, and divide that by half, then you can get the average speed over most of the bolt movement.

the problem is that to get an actuall speed, you must specify a exact location to take that speed at. for what we are futzing with right now, i think that the average is fine.

[nerobro]

I'm quoting numbers I can be sure on. the level 10 mag bolt moves ~4fps untill the bolt passes the ball in teh stack, then it moves faster, then it moves fastest when closing.

the spyder bolt moves faster and faster untill it's shut, then returns equally fast and comes to a stop. :-) None of us have the proper equipment to get the real data. the MOST you could assume is that the spyder bolt is going 2x the speed I quoted when it's finally shut. but that's not entirely true because the boltspring looses force as it extends....

Basicly it's a lot of math, for a number that doesn't matter.

[314159]

just put in an order to digikey for the receptacles i need to plug the solenoid, power (also going to add another 9v conector in paralell for more power), and trigger.

if everything goes as planed, and my calc class dosen't engulf me, i should be able to throw together something this weekend ^_^.

here is some eye candy in the mean time
http://www.speakeasy.org/~aaronw/board2.jpg

[Azemoth]

Hehe, the "BENCH" dum dum duuuummmmm.... hehe, I can't wait to see some proof, but I was over last night to 314159's house and he showed me the equipment he used to test it and I have to agree with him. I do NOT know a lot about tech stuff. But, I've seen the system that he uses to test it, and I would believe it if he says it.

[Arturus]

The thread's turned into what I was hoping for. An informative discussion without the usual flaming and blatant accusations that may have been found on other forums. (well, close enough to it ) ;)

Not being as technical and up to par as some of the posters, I'm doing my best to keep up.

And yes, this thread was never started with the intention of being a Mag vs. Spyder debate. Rather to see if there was any truth to the claim. I've never been one very hyped up on the issue of ROF and cycle rate, but I wouldn't mind seeing a video of a spyder shooting anything near 40bps.

[nerobro]

You won't ever see a spyder doing 40bps of paint.... Though we are working on getting you a video of one cycling at 30bps and 40bps.

40 and 50 bps don't allow time for paint to load.

[Muzikman]

This is very interesting, and all I can say is that anything Nerobro is involved in is interesting. But closer observation determines that that pic of the "Bench" has to be fake. What respectable geek would be drinking Canada Dry not Mt Dew or half a pot of coffee:)

[314159]

Originally posted by Muzikman
This is very interesting, and all I can say is that anything Nerobro is involved in is interesting. But closer observation determines that that pic of the "Bench" has to be fake. What respectable geek would be drinking Canada Dry not Mt Dew or half a pot of coffee:)

i do frequent 7-11 enough buying fountain drinks(caffiene) to feel good about helping put someones kid through college.....

ok i have been faking the geek life to be more popular and have the chicks throw themselves at me. they really admire a big..... intelect ;)

[nerobro]

/me pulls himself back into his chair and hits reply....

Muz, i'm not so sure how to take that ;-)

As for the bench, tha'ts an older version of the bench, ther e are now much newer and interesting bits on it. A nixie tube frequency counter.. and things like that :-)

[314159]

tektronix storage scope mainframe, couple extra modules, dual powersupply with volt/current controll. and about 5 7-11 cups ^_^.

[314159]

i even have a half full 7-11 cup waiting in the car for me after work ^_^

[MagDog68]

Am I the only one that wants to play with a pump now?

~Fred

[joeyjoe367]

wow. Interesting topic.

...on a side note, I don't think that it would matter if you could get a spyder to shoot 40 bps anyway. The mass of the spyder's bolt AND hammer (where the mag only has a bolt, and SB2 is uber light :)) is pretty dang heavy, and when you've got that amount of mass reciprocating at 40hz....

...can you say "recoil" ? ;)

[314159]

i like to play with pumps too. i have a pgp, pmi-1, p68 at, and a sterling. kinda ironic that i love pump play eh? if you are going to be down at the iao keep any eye out for the team playing 7 man novice w/pumps.

(PacMan/terminal_err/3141519/.... thoes are some of my handles)

[nerobro]

I'm going to be at the IAO with a pump. I play all the time with my PGP, and won sportsmanship at skyball :-)

[314159]

Originally posted by joeyjoe367
wow. Interesting topic.

...on a side note, I don't think that it would matter if you could get a spyder to shoot 40 bps anyway. The mass of the spyder's bolt AND hammer (where the mag only has a bolt, and SB2 is uber light :)) is pretty dang heavy, and when you've got that amount of mass reciprocating at 40hz....

...can you say "recoil" ? ;)

it is an intresting sensation, why would you not want your marker to kick a little, it has a nice feel. and if you are throwing that much paint, it is kinda nice to have a little of a spread on it ;). go try and shoot a vm-68 magnum, that thing has kick (due to it's massive bolt), and it is fun to shoot.

as far as the weight thing goes, i think that the derlin bolts for the bushmaster might have the superbolt 2 beat in terms of weight.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by 314159


it is an intresting sensation, why would you not want your marker to kick a little, it has a nice feel. and if you are throwing that much paint, it is kinda nice to have a little of a spread on it ;). go try and shoot a vm-68 magnum, that thing has kick (due to it's massive bolt), and it is fun to shoot.

as far as the weight thing goes, i think that the derlin bolts for the bushmaster might have the superbolt 2 beat in terms of weight.

You have to add the ram assembly to the wt too. That is also reciprocating mass.

[nerobro]

Those "ram asemblys" also have hammers on them ;-) but they also accelerate slower than the spyder. So you'll feel less force. total impulse will be in the same reigon, but it's over more time...

[314159]

i guess i could edit that to a derlin shocker bolt..... but shockers max out at just above 10bps, so that is not a good example.

didn't work on the program for the board tonight, (ended up at a friends house). i will have the board done on sat (unless digikey shipment has fallen through, which is never has so far)

oh well, on with life, i need to go to bed and get a little sleep before i wake up early and sing the company loyality song for the last time this week.

[314159]

anyone want to take a guess on how fast i can get the thing going with a forcefeed and a better power source?

around 16bps, the marker has problems cycling with a single 9 volt. i have an idea of a trick i can do with the board to overcome this. i will need a little time to think about how i am going to implement it though.

i am thinking that a larger power source (which i have been using) is the best source.

[Butterfingers]

Hook it up to a car battery :)


Originally posted by 314159
anyone want to take a guess on how fast i can get the thing going with a forcefeed and a better power source?

around 16bps, the marker has problems cycling with a single 9 volt. i have an idea of a trick i can do with the board to overcome this. i will need a little time to think about how i am going to implement it though.

i am thinking that a larger power source (which i have been using) is the best source.

[314159]

some stuff just came up this weekend, have almost all the code marked up on paper, i can't wait to see the results of the actuall firing tests.

[nerobro]

from this weekend we know none of our hoppers are up to the task ;-) the gun could shoot the stack dry at what ever ROF we had it set to....... and caught the next ball to fall.

[Muzikman]

Well..bring this whole rid to the IAO and we can set it up at my place and you can use one of my warps:) I want to see how many BPS this thing will shoot. I also have the vid cams and software to dump it to mpg:)

[314159]

i was thinking of something to the effect of a spring loaded stick feed.

update, calc homework 1, working on board 0. don't worry, i am not trying to neglect it too much ;)

[Arturus]

Muzikman -

"Well..bring this whole rid to the IAO and we can set it up at my place and you can use one of my warps I want to see how many BPS this thing will shoot. I also have the vid cams and software to dump it to mpg"

Now that sounds interesting.

:)

Hope to see it happen.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by 314159
i was thinking of something to the effect of a spring loaded stick feed.

Ok, I can work that out too. I have access to 20' pieces of PVC pipe...I think we could rig something up. How about air powered instead of the spring?

[nerobro]

Glen was feeding 20bps just using an air dump setup. I think we could copy that. Just dump LOTS of air down the feed tube. Though a rock with a little slug could be effective too. I wonder if 1cfm is enough ;-)

[314159]

Building M3.HEX...

Compiling M3.ASM:
Command line: "C:\PROGRA~1\MPLAB\MPASMWIN.EXE /p16F84A /q C:\PROGRA~1\MPLAB\M3.ASM"
Warning[224] C:\PROGRA~1\MPLAB\M3.ASM 77 : Use of this instruction is not recommended.
Warning[224] C:\PROGRA~1\MPLAB\M3.ASM 82 : Use of this instruction is not recommended.
Warning[224] C:\PROGRA~1\MPLAB\M3.ASM 95 : Use of this instruction is not recommended.

Build completed successfully.



you guys know what this means...... right?

[nerobro]

*waits to hear that 314159 needs help soldering up a series of 40bps boards for draguns*

[314159]

i could just be lazy and send it off to a board and production house ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by nerobro
Look at the cost of a spyder, versus that of a mag.

The cost of a PF automag classic vs a spyder with a regulator isn't all that much different. Cost of ownership over five years probably favors the 'mag. :D

[314159]

the reason i started messing with the blowbacks can be stated like this, i would feel really bad about taking a power drill to an automag.....

[PBpunk]

The cost of a PF automag classic vs a spyder with a regulator isn't all that much different. Cost of ownership over five years probably favors the 'mag.

hitech I wouldn’t be so sure about that I had a spyder for 3 years and it never failed me once and I never spent a cent to fix or upgrade it other that o-rings. on the other hand my brother has had a mag and he has had to buy power tube spacers and upgrades and also I think people are more inclined to spend money upgrading their mags then their (nobody wants to put money into a spyder) so I mean it all depends

[hitech]

Originally posted by PBpunk
hitech I wouldn?t be so sure about that I had a spyder for 3 years and it never failed me once and I never spent a cent to fix or upgrade it other that o-rings. on the other hand my brother has had a mag and he has had to buy power tube spacers and upgrades...so I mean it all depends

Yes, it all depends. However, with a large enough sampling I believe the cost of ownership will be lower. Two people just isn't a big enough sampling. ;)

[314159]

there is nothing wrong with the stacked tube blowback idea, there are some small problems that are a result of cutting corners to make a economy paintball gun though.

i am playing around with the idea of picking up a diecent webcam so i can show u guys some things that i am working on.

[PBpunk]

Yes, it all depends. However, with a large enough sampling I believe the cost of ownership will be lower. Two people just isn't a big enough sampling.

good point

[314159]

getting a webcam that can do 640x480@30frames/sec to get some video.

the electronics for the frame are all functional with the exception of the mosfet to controll the solenoid, i just don't have one that can handle the power laying around. that will be fixed when i make my weekley parts order. maby i will order from newark this week and spice things up.

[Arturus]

Keep us updated - A few of us here must be waiting to see that Vid.

[314159]

counted my pennies, relised that i had enough cash for iao/.... and another order to digikey with the parts i need.

i have the webcam, just have not had time to set it up, been busy lately.

[kungfufita]

what ever happened? - did it work or what?

[Skreemer]

thanks to the IAO and a few other projects that came up it's all still sitting there but I don't think anything new has been done on it in a day or so... I'm driving them to the IAO and have some room in the car... if he wants to pack the stuff and bring it with him I'll help em pack it up...

[314159]

Originally posted by kungfufita
what ever happened? - did it work or what?

it all comes down to time and money. i currently blow about $200/month working on my side projects (digikey loves me). between the time it takes to work on the project, classes, my job, and a little fun. priorities start kicking in.
(got a little over an hour of sleep last night, have time to crash early tonight and get some sleep)

i have a functioning circuit on a bread board, all except for the mosfet. picking up some mosfets that can handle 10A >=] (enroute from digikey), so that should work out. i hope to have a little time to throw something together before iao, but i haven't had free time to set up the webcam that i picked up yet.

also getting some microcontrollers with more bells and whistles so i can add some neat features to the frame.

picked up some parts to try out a new in circuit programmer for the frame, this one will generate the 12-14 volts necessary to program the controller using a voltage pump that it powered by the serial port itself. NO EXTERNAL POWER REQUIERD.

some parts for a dropin m3 warp interface

starting to gather parts for a nimh battery fast charger

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nerobro informed me that i would have a board ready for the IAO my package should be here today or tomorrow. if all ese fails, i can go over to the local parts mongers (www.crashelectronics.com and www.radioshack.com *shudder*).
either case, i will drop it on a piece of protoboard on sat.

/me shudders as he rembers how fast he dumped his tank on 20 bps. and ponders the need for a scuba fill station.

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got the parts today.....

had a very intresting night to say the least, the past 2 days have spun my world around, and i am back on my feet again, but i am getting hit by everything that is still spinning in my world.

i think that i can mannage to throw together the board with the sanity that i have left ;). i suppose i will get some sleep first.

[PBpunk]

sweet dude, keep up the work i want to hear the results

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had some time today, set up the mosfet control circuitry.... right now it is running off of a bench power supply, on a large breadboard. maby tomorrow i will whip up a pcb and a battery pack for it.

here is a sound file of me firing off a couple 30 shot/second strings. (have to wait till i can take it out to the back yard before i can cycle paint through it)

http://www.speakeasy.org/~aaronw/30bps.mp3