evolving the rt/retro/emag valve

[xatle]

now that the lvl 10 is finalized and ready for production i would like to push for some focus on what i think is the next logical step in creating a more perfect mag, and thats resolving the inconsistancy problem that the rt valve has at different rates of fire. i have read all the documentation on tank output pressure and how it effects the rt valve and i still think theres alot of room for improvement in the valve.

now i believe that the rt reg valve has 2 possible positions by design, fully open and fully closed. this is how we get the insane recharge rate. this is also the reason why it cant compensate for the small drop in dump chamber pressure when the air cools. please correct me in detail if im wrong about this.

the first idea i had on how to fix this is to tap a hole in between the on/off valve and the regulater and run a secondary reg, maybe a micro rock modified for higher pressure, to fine tune your cold shots up to your hot shot velocity. im not gonna be the guy who tries this out since im sure it would void my stars and i cant afford a new one.

the other idea i had was to increase the amount of space between the on/off and the reg in order to have a cache of preregulated air in the hopes that it will allow the valve to run cooler.


im also curious to know if the folks at agd are already working on this and what theyve tried and how it worked out.:D

[314159]

there was a video out there demonstrating the halo loader on a mag with a standard air valve and a custom hyper frame set to 15-16 bps automatic. this didn't appear to have dropoff.

some people remove parts of their air valve essentially creating just a straight pathway through, and use something like a palmer stabilizer to regulate it. palmer has said that the stabaliser can recharge at 20bps +.

i am thinking with the magnetic trigger of an emag, that the reactive trigger might be a thing of the past (except for thoes of u that like hybread mode with the reactive trigger). instead of trying to invent a new reg, one could always build a stabiliser based air valve.

[Butterfingers]

What inconsistency problem per se?

Even at high inputs it rarely ever deviates past +/-5.

Tapping a hole on the on off could have some intresting effects on the way the RT valve system works.

The RT basicly works backwards to the way a normal reg works.

The on/off chamber and the firing chamber have a hole connecting them in which gas is not shut off by the on/off pin. The on off just controls the pressure equalibrium needed to throw the reg pin open.

When the on/off opens small amounts of pressure enter the chamber and throws the reg pin open. The amount of air that flows through the on/off assy via the reg pin is very small comapared to the second stage.

Now that the reg pin is open it throws your full input charge into the chamber and does not stop until the pressure inside the chamber is able to throw the reg piston and reg pin and on/off back to thr resting state.

[SlartyBartFast]

My post in another thread probably might add to this discussion as well...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42202

[AGD]

If you don't want the gas to get hot and cool off just run lower pressure into the gun. At about 6 psi it acts just like a standard mag valve. See, we think of everything.

AGD

[Shadow221]

Now you just have to think of a way to run the gun at 6 psi. Then automags would start selling like hotcakes. It seems people just want lower pressure. I've seen people brag that their gun runs on 47 psi. Just imagine. Some noob saying"mags suck because they're high pressure and break a lot of paint."(actually a guy at my pro shop said they stopped selling mags for that very reason). Anyway then us mag people could say "since when is 6 psi high pressure?":D

[magnj]

I would crap my pants if someone could get a mag to run on 6psi. THats like exhaling( i dont know for sure but thats gott be close lol ) COuld you imagine tanks could be like 35/4500 lol .

[Person]

We need a tank that can adjust down to 6 psi... mags would be EVERYWERE if that was possible :D Tom please make a super ultra highflow tank that can go down to 6 psi :D

[Patron God of Pirates]

Air pressure at sea level is 14.7 lbs. 6 psi would be vacuum. I think Tom was having some fun with you.

Hey, we could always build a total reversed system that fires paintballs by sucking them out of the barrel.

The only way I can think of to stabilize the pressure and prevent shoot-up would be to have some kind of thermal dump chamber that maintained constant air temperature. I have no idea how to accomplish this.

[vf-xx]

Possibly add heat sinks to the valve? If you do it right the heat transfer happens close enough to insintaniously that it might work. (If i'm understanding my Thermo II prof right.)

[BlackVCG]

Why would you want to do that? Getting something to rotate at 26 revolutions per second is a heck of a lot more difficult than filling an air chamber at 26cps.

A rotating air chamber is pointless.

[Potatoboy]

Um.. methinks you're taking Tom's word as gold.

Have you ever heard of a typo?!

P.S. He means 600 psi.

[flanders]

okok, u can' steel my idea..so umm, to bad

[magnj]

i know it was a typo i just thought of how cool it would be if it were true.

Flanders, thats a cool idea but have no idea how to do it lol. It would also make the gun alot biger probably.

[flanders]

im actually gonna delete those, gonnae use it for profit, so if iu liked it, u ahve about 1 minuet to read

[Smoken]

so set your input to about 600psi, and file your on/off pin EVER SO SLIGHTLY (to increase reactivity), and you have yourself one kick*** setup:D

[athomas]

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates
Air pressure at sea level is 14.7 lbs. 6 psi would be vacuum. I think Tom was having some fun with you.



The 6psi is measured relative to the surrounding pressure. At sealevel, if you filled the air tank to 6psi, you would really have (6psi + 14.7psi = 20.7 psi). The gauge would still read 6 psi.

Now to the topic.

The air heats when a high volume of air is rapidly expanded from a small passage to a large chamber. The only way to prevent this would be to make the air passages larger. That way it would be more of a movement of existing air than compressed air filling a large empty space.

[Smoken]

air heats when a high volume of air is rapidly expanded from a small passage to a large chamber

Actually ( if I understand my Physics right), when the air rapidly expands it cools down. The rise in temperature occurs when the air is compressed as it passes through the small passage ways in the gun. It's like if you fill a compressed air tank it gets hot; but if you open the valve on the tank and let it drain, it gets condensation on it.

[athomas]

Originally posted by Smoken


Actually ( if I understand my Physics right), when the air rapidly expands it cools down. The rise in temperature occurs when the air is compressed as it passes through the small passage ways in the gun. It's like if you fill a compressed air tank it gets hot; but if you open the valve on the tank and let it drain, it gets condensation on it.

You are partly correct.

Air cools as it decompresses and heat as it is compressed. The bottle will cool as it is emptied because it is decompressing. The bottle will heat up when it is being filled because the air going into the bottle is compressing once it reaches the bottle.

The air chamber in a mag heats because the air going into the front chamber is recompressed once it gets there. The faster it compresses, the higher the temp. The bottle temp decreases because it is decompressing at the same time. The bottle decompresses so little that the temp drop is hardly noticable.

The total number of calories transfered from cold to hot in the air chamber should be equal to the total number of calories transfered from hot to cold in the bottle (not counting losses).

I hope this makes sense. It was a little confusing the first time I wrote it.

[SnapShot]

the human body is constantly at homeostasus (Homeostasus-a constant temperature of 98.6 degrees)
we could make a mag air system that will have a homeostasus air "dump" chamber that would read the inside temperature of the tank, and then either heat it or cool it somehow. Wouldn't this eliminate the problem?

[athomas]

Originally posted by SnapShot
the human body is constantly at homeostasus (Homeostasus-a constant temperature of 98.6 degrees)
we could make a mag air system that will have a homeostasus air "dump" chamber that would read the inside temperature of the tank, and then either heat it or cool it somehow. Wouldn't this eliminate the problem?

Its not the temp of the tank that causes the temp change in the valve chamber. Its the transfer of energy during decompression that takes heat from the tank and gives it to the air leaving the tank. The compressed air gains energy (not in the form of heat). The recompression in the chamber causes the energy in the compressed air to be released in the form of heat.

[SnapShot]

Oh, I understand.
Why does everyone have to QUOTE each other?! It almost like your hanging on every word I type! Quoting is the worst thing to happen to AGD! thats how arguments are started, and then people get banned! that's my view on the quote thing.

[athomas]

Quotes allow you to answer specific posts within a thread. There is no question as to which post the answer is directed at, especially if the thread has diverted from its original topic.