Warped.... Mayhem???

[nicad]

heheh.. still getting the bugs worked out. I think there prolly like one other person out there that I know of that has done this.. :)
its a MayhemEC2 with modified body for 45* below warp feed entry.

http://www.deadlywind.com/files/dump/07160005_s.jpg

http://www.deadlywind.com/files/dump/07160009_s.jpg

http://www.deadlywind.com/files/dump/07160001.jpg

out!

[Rynoboy06]

Melt the revy and that'll be TIGHT!

[magman007]

thats pretty cool! hey is it true the mayhem is based on the nova?

[nicad]

yeah both were developed by PGI.. except the mayhem' bolt moves instead of the barrel..
100psi operating pressure
angel threaded feed tube.
cocker threaded barrels.
closd bolt (good/bad/ugly.. it just is)
very light weight.

gas HOG.
chops.. would cut a finger off.
loud.
slow (8bps max)

anyways.. thats the rundown of Mayhems. there is a very small handfull of us who are trying to modify it to make it better in some regards. :)
from chopless to faster to less gass hog..

out!

[lunchbox]

yeah but why melt the revy on that gun the hose pretty much goes straight up to the gun. i mean just cause everyone melts there revy isnt a good reason to melt a revy. they melt it to keep the hose straight. and on this gun the hose looks alot straighter than it would running thru the revy.

[paintballrulzs]

I almost got a mayhem a while ago. How does it perform to other priced guns

[nicad]

melting the revvy would allow the revy to be twisted in more.. but since there is not foregrip on this setup, the hopper does not get in the way of the front hand. (its confy holding onto the bottom of the warp caseing)

paintballrulzs- I think you can get Mayhems for like $250-$300, which isnt bad for an electro.
they can be quit frustrating if they chop, since they require almost complete teardown to clean the bolt/chamber.
Sicne it is closed bolt, it has a pre-set wait time for a ball to fall in. if it catches a ball, it will chop it cause there is over 100LBs (im not talkin psi here) of force that the bolt exerts.

hope this helps..
out!

[sniper1rfa]

:)
hmmmm... so whos the other guy... :D
you did precisely what i did, right down to thinning the tube to fit the hose over it and down to the plastic getting bent enough to turn it white in the top ring of the warp hose. ;)

good job.

BTW, the bolt exerts a little over 175 pounds (the piston part of the bolt has an area of roughly 1.765 in squared, running at 100 psi). it can almost cut a pencil in half. although i think with a little (read: a lot) of modification, a sort of LX mod could be done, ill look into it.

[nicad]

well speak of the devil! >:-)
pretty slow over on pbnation, isnt it?

yeah it was fun making it all "hooverphonic" looking.. :)
i didnt know you had done the feed in from the lower part as well tho.. but who could resist on the mayhem's body setup, right? :)

the feed tube is about 1/2" long sticking out.. I turned a coupla ridges into it so that the warp feed tube would snap over onto it and hold itself on w/o any distortion..

yeah I still think the mayhem holds some potential.. my main focus is of course getting the bolt to not chop.. i like your "level10" idea... Iv also made a bolt setup which should lower the exertion force down to around.. oh.. 4lbs? :)
the new bolt weighs 0.2oz (6grams).
might be giving Tom's claim of the automag having the least reciprocating(spl?) mass a run for the money.. :)

latuh..

[BajaBoy]

my friend looked into those last xmas, 8bps max?????? no way...

[DiRTyBuNNy]

wow...8pbs..you might as well get an Epic...oh..they're like 9bps...(I'm one away from 1000 posts...here i come...Post Whore Status is MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[sniper1rfa]

stock mayhem is easy. just make a new powertube-ish-type-deal that doesnt have that one way valve o-ring setup. then block off the main vent into the dump chamber, after that its a simple process to drill holes in the sleeve at the point where the powertube clears if the bolt is about halfway open. instant level ten, though you need to drill out the vent to the powertube-ish-type-deal. since the return spring is so hard, it will counteract the first stage force of 19 lbs (its about 25 lbs compressed, so probably around 15 halfway there) and drop it to about four. :-) INSTANT level 3 (10). which i may talk leon into being a stock feature, BUT, my new spring will be too, so that will cause problems.
you say you have made something that would, and thats not possible. did you physically make it or no?

now, try figuring out how to do it with my spring. measures in at 9 lbs compressed (gets rid of blow back with a well fitting bolt), and about four where you need it in that mod. makes major complications in the setup, as it only brings the bolt pressure down to about 15, still too much.

and damn, you beat me, mine wieghs about 15 grams. no kick :D

bajaboyAGD, i have cycled mine at 12 bps, which is fast enough. with a little drilling and an RT style reg, im sure i could get it to about 15-16.

and i did melt the revvy (score for me), makes the gun really tight. its also easier to tip the gun without exposing the hopper coming out the left.

[nicad]

sniper1rfa-

have you made that L3 mod yet, and does it work (like its suppose to)? I like it.. its very simple. :)
what do you mean "block off the main vent into the dump chamber".. are you talking about the slot milled into the power-tube piston? Im assuming you would want to re-make that piston(without a slot in it to start off with) since you have to make its Oring seal and not one-way.

My only question about operation of this is, when you fire, the air is dumped out from behind that piston, but it is now also directly dumping air out of the main chamber (via our new holes in the power tube). will this still create enough pressure difference to break the piston away from the bolt?

To make it work with your "wonder spring" (which i should prolly order a few from ya) :) shouldnt be too hard.
think along the lines of the AGD lvl10 again. do everything you mentioned before, but now lets look only at the piston.

Im thinking of two slightly different ways of doing it..

****************** #1 ****************
for now, lets say our second "stage" begins at half throw (bolt, piston, etc..). like you said your holes in the power tube would engage at half of piston travel. now imagine slipping a sleeve down into the power tube to reduce the ID to about 0.375" from the original 0.5". the sleeve would be half the length of the piston travel(about 1/2") and somehow pressed in so that it will stay in place. the piston would also be reduced down on the end of it with a second smaller oring that would fit into the sleeve. as the piston moves out, the second smaller oring would exit the sleeve just as the main oring clears the powertube holes.

the orientation of the main oring on the piston would have to be moved up on the piston to make room for the reduced section/sleeve. I dont have one in front of me, but i think there is enough room for it all.. might be pretty close.. (crossing fingers) :)

about the only thing I have not thought out yet is how to easily/efficiently vent the pressure/vacuum which will develop between the two differently sized orings on the piston as the piston moves in its first half of travel... but im sure its all possible.

****************** #2 ****************
same as everything above, except no holes in the power tube. instead, let the larger (0.5") Oring be one-way again. it would still have to be moved up on the piston, etc.. but this way the smaller 0.375" Oring would BE the first stage. as soon as it exits its sleeve, the air would go around it and push past the larger one-way Oring, filling the chamber. when fired, and air is dumped out from behind the piston, the one-way Oring would still seal off and you would have no main-chamber air escaping with it, like in stock configuration.

as the piston continues to move back after the small Oring enters the sleeve, the pressure built up between the Orings can now vent past the one-way if it likes (if theres time!). when the piston moves out, there will be a slight vacuum pulled between them, but that should never get above 1.2Lbs (assuming full vacuum @1 atmosphere, which will not likely happen :) ) but this vacuum is just helping in preventing chops.

with the 0.375" powertube reducer sleeve(1/16" walls), the force pushing out the piston for the first half of its travel drops from your original 19.6Lbs down to 11Lbs. this minus the 4lbs your spring will be providing up to that point, that leaves about 7Lbs (shockers are at ~9lbs)..
MIGHT still chop, but dam its better than 175Lbs! lol..

ok my fingers hurt. if your still reading this, your a freaking die-hard mayhem fan (sniper1rfa excluded..) :p

out!!

[nicad]

oh yes.. all that i didnt even answer your question about what iv been working on. :)

what iv done is pretty much replace the bolt with one that has a drastically reduced "piston plate" on the back of it along with a reduced sleve around the outside of it for it to seal to (instead of the main body shell), but that not all. its a true sleeve bolt with a real stationary 'powertube' inside of it. the poppet-piston in the back seals into the back of this power-tube instead of the back of the bolt. the bolt is fed a constsnt 100psi to the front of it (the "spring") via internal plumming, and is still pushed forward from the back with the main chamber pressure. The poppet-piston only moves about 1/4" to fire, so it only dumps that much air from behind it, as opposed to stock configuration of it moving over an inch.. so should be more efficient

this might be very confusing, seeing as i just stated it all very poorly (and fast cause i gotta go!!).. but thats the general idea. Ill try to clear some of it up later...
I did build a prototype. im having a little difficulty mounting/sealing it to the existing components.
theoretically it should move at 4Lbs forward and about 6Lbs backwards. i love theories! heeh

oh and the bolt is 6grams made of aluminum.. i made a delrin one that was 3grams (with an oring). itll prolly die tho... ;)

out!

[sniper1rfa]

whoa... posted at the same time... :-)

by main vent i mean not the one in the powertube. there are two, one in the powertube, and one behind the bolt beside the powertube.

as to your original ideas... im either confused or they are complicated. hmmm.

with my design, the pressure differential should be enough, but it will be slightly less efficient (D'OH!).
now that i think about it, with my design and my spring, i should be able to make it much easier on paint and much more efficient with the smaller powertube diameter.

as to your second post, huh? care to draw a pic? (you lost me...)

now, i think i get your second one, and i like it. ill have to whip something up along those lines for it.

[nicad]

sniper1rfa-

the vent your talking about, in both of my mayhems (V2's), there is a hole in the location your talking about- but it goes nowhere!!(that i can see). there is a setscrew coming in from the outside which cuts off the hole. even without the setscrew, the hole dead ends. I may be missing something, but that hole/screw make no sence to me.. :-/

I measured the piston and power tube length last night.. looks like there will be just enough room to fit everything for its own lil "L3". I dont know if you have had a chance to work on it any- I was all geared up to build it yesterday, but then company came over.. :eek:
now ill be away all weekend. Ill be watching the thread if you come upon anything over the weekend.. otherwise ill work on it monday and see how it does..

yes im sorry my description in my second post was horrible.. :-p
when i get the time ill try to draw up the springless 6gram bolt setup..

out!

[sniper1rfa]

well, thats just wierd. i always assumed that it was a second vent to the bolt chamber, but now that i think about it, that wouldnt do anything. wierd. i am probably going to do it today, but i need to get a few more springs made.

uh oh, problem. the little piston will have to have a one way o-ring set up also. otherwise, the air will not vent from behind the big piston part one the little piston seals on the way back.

[paintbattler]

thats awesome..u need to melt your hopper

[sniper1rfa]

IT WORKS! sorta... i made a "prototype" out of 1/2" s/s capillary tubing (9/32 ID) and a turned down nylon 1/4-28 1/2" stand-off. i polished the inside of the tubing and then slowly turned down the stand-off till if fit snugly in the tubing (i turned the standoff with a screw in it so it didnt deform and got a good fit). popped the tubing in with some purple loc-tite and screwed the stand-off onto the piston. gassed it up and the bolt came foward realllllly slow. took it back apart and realized the stupid vent is off-set, so i filed a slot in the tubing to allow the gas to get in. put it back together and gassed it up again. cycles fine, but the bolt doesnt return all the way. i think i make have to make a complicated little on/off in the piston, a little ball valve would probably work.

the bolt pressure, however, is just about perfect, though maybe slightly too little. the idea does work though.
BTW, i tested it in cocker mode.


OOPS... found out why the bolt didnt return... the o-ring on the piston was purple loc-tited to its face on the piston. guess that means i wont have to put a one-way in ( i didnt in the first place).
works fine now, besides the fact that the pressure steadily increase because of the fact that the stand-off is not great for a make-shift o-ring.

[nicad]

very cool! i knew it all had to work-- I saw it working in my head at least.. :)

need to go ahead and just re-make the piston tho i think..
how long did your first stage end up being? if ya just used the length of the threaded tip of the piston, that cant be much more than 1/4"..?

sorry for the silence-- my weekend ended up being quite a bit longer than expected.. :-/

BTW- the vent hole is offset.. lol

out!

[sniper1rfa]

precisely 1/2", though i may make it shorter when i make a nicer one, this one was sorta proof-of-concept. i just used the threaded part to hold the stand-off on so i didnt have to make another poston.

i think i am also going to see if i cant get leon to change the stock mayhem so that the vent is centered and about twice as big, to recharge 4 times as fast. the current vent is just too tiny. makes the gun slow.

oh btw, i tried it with the stock spring, no dice, it didnt move much at all (a five pound wieght compresses the spring a little under 1/4", and its already compressed that far when the gun is idle, so i had a 2 pound difference between spring and piston. the bol9t didnt move far enough to pop).

[nicad]

yeah that hole is offset to give more room for the aplifier(sideways) spool.. Im sure it could all be compressed some and the hole be moved to the center.. but it would require re-tooling for machining the spool's ring-port inside, as well as a new shorter spool. :-/ but I wonder why all that wasnt done in the first place...?!

anywho.. ya have any word on PGI's own mod that Kristen's Mayhem has on it already (the cover of July APG)?

If your still doing runs on your spring.. send a couple my way. PM me info for payment, etc..
cant wait cant wait cant wait to get home and working on this thing again.. :)

out!

[sniper1rfa]

ah, sorry, just sent for a run, though maybe i can work something out...

actually, it would require any retooling(except the one hole, which could be done as the same size as like a screw hole) as such, just a change in some CNC code. im bet i could get him to prototype one or two though... show him how much faster and easier to operate the gun would be.

no clue about that mod, i cant get anything out of him. meh, itll come out sooner or later.

[nicad]

ok well i finally had a chance to scratch out some diagrams of my origional idea (warning very horrible MSPaint drawing atached!). its much more complicated than your L3, and requires modifications to the body.. but i still think it would be the most effienct running as for gas useage.

legend:
Red = sleve bolt
Blue = power tube + outter shell for bolt (would almost have to be made out of two pieces and assembled..
grey = mayhem front body piece. has a new oring groove in it for sealing off the bolt prior to the breach.

the front area of the blue part (outter shell) would be fed a constant 100psi piped in from the back mayhem body part via a small tube. this pressure acts as the spring to push the bolt back. when the chamber is pressureized, it has access to the back of the bolt, and since it has a larger surface area to push against, it will eventually overcome the same pressure holding the bolt back and push it forward.

Iv built all this so far. I havent had the time to figure out how to connect the blue part to the grey part and keep it sealed.

the piston coming from the back would only be working in its backmost .25" throw.. saving much wasted air. it would seal into the chamfered(spl?) part of the back end of the blue power tube. when fired, it would pull back away from the back of the power tube and dump all the chamber pressure out through the power tube.

a coupla notes-- there would also need to be a sealing disk somewhere which goes out to the origional mayhem body to seal off the front section of the chamber. it would have to be placed in a position which results in the optimal amount of chamber air volume. And oh yes this is my 100th post.. weee!!

out! :)

[sniper1rfa]

there are only two problems i can see with that design.
dues to having to keep the sleeve strong and blunt enough to not chop a ball, it would probably have to be about and 1/16" thick (youve already made this, how thick is it? maybe a little thicker?...). then with an o-ring to seal the inside of this would make the blue part have to be another 1/16 (this time more like 1/8). this only leaves about 1/4 or a little more to vent into the barrel. this may not lead to sufficiant velocity with your AA.

the other is unless there is very, very little area one the sleeve, your gunna get some massive blow-back, though maybe not (i assume there is not much in the way of scale in that drawing...). seems like it would be easier just to seal that whole bit off and use a spring.

that and it makes 2 more dynamic seals and 1 more static one (for the return vent type thing). though this isnt really a problem if you use good o-rings.

other than that, I like it, though i think i am going to stick with mine, as i dont feel like machining anything like that.

[nicad]

I would agree about going with a return spring, except that springs are progressive, and at ~6lbs pushing the bolt forward, the spring would be changing drasticaly over an inch of travel. i havent run any numbers, but i think it would throw things too far off. :-/

about dimensions.. yes the picture was sloped out with no real scale. the blue powertube IRL ended up being 1/2" OD and almost 3/8" ID (where the air would have to flow through). this should be enough flow (possibly?).
the bolt is right at 1/32" thick walls. pretty freaking thin. but its at this thinkness you get down to ~6Lbs pressure @ the 100psi.

for reference, all the o-rings in the drawing are 1/16" diameter.

all in all.. ill never have the time to finish this thing. till then, the little "Hoover" will just have to be happy with the cool, simple L3.. :)

out!

[sniper1rfa]

thats true, i was thinking that as i was typing about the springs, but remember, so would your little air return, probably actually a noticable amount. but hey, whatever.

of course, i still like mine better, cause it works, right here, right now. ;) bang bang pop bang bang aaaaaahahahahahahaa pssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
SH**!

:p

and guess what, of 26 posts, only 7 are by somebody besides me an' you. :D

[RT_Luver]

i while back ago at my field they had a Nova for sale. that thing was FUGLY. ahd to be the ulgiest thing I've ever seen....SERIOUSLY. it had like a freak barrel on it or something. kinda odd.

[nicad]

ok.. time to revive the thread.. sniper1rfa wake up!! hehe
i cant believe i just now got around to working on this.. and i still havent gotten the MO out for your spring.. sorry. will soon!

did everything as planned. works like... poop!
made a new piston out of delrin. placed an oring on the back end of it (3/8" OD) and moved the main one-way oring up a little. inserted an aluminum 1/2" OD x 3/8" ID down into the powertube. drilled into the body and put a setscrew so that it clamps the sleeve in place. overall 1st stage travel is .375".

the poopie part-
as the piston is in 1st stage, it is moving the bolt forward while the main chamber is still sealed. since the bolt's plunger area is soo much larger than the 1st stage area, its creating a major vacuume in the main chamber as the bolt moves forward. with my (stock?) spring setup and a 3/8"D 1st stage area, the bolt hase a very hard time getting past the 1st stage..

sooo.. to take care of the vacuume, iv decided a way to fix it would be to make the bolt's plunger be one-way as well.. :)
i think simply drilling some small holes through in the bottom of the bolt's o-ring groove would do it.. look for an upadte this evening hopefully..

out!

[sniper1rfa]

zzzzzzzzzz*snort*...
huh, whu? oh, you again. :D

never thought of that. mine didnt do that probably because it was all leaky. well, when i make the final one i will be sure to make the big piston one way.

definately tell me how it turns out.

[dansim]

i just saw a warped mayhem last sunday...it was gold or yellow:D

[nicad]

..well, it works. great actually. just need a slightly weaker spring i think (ie one of yours).

iv tossed a coupla pics up for everyones enjoyment.. weee...

see the vents in the bolt oring groove... its a must! (for my setup..) origional piston included for compairison.
http://www.deadlywind.com/files/08010001.JPG

everything all pretty and happy
http://www.deadlywind.com/files/08010007.JPG

[SyntaxError]

Originally posted by RT_Luver
i while back ago at my field they had a Nova for sale. that thing was FUGLY. ahd to be the ulgiest thing I've ever seen....SERIOUSLY. it had like a freak barrel on it or something. kinda odd.

well, I dont see how it could have a freak on it, as nova barrels were all brass and produced in little or no aftermarket places. but they shot well, very well, I almost bought one if it weren't for classic mags being as cheap as they were few years ago. Now i'm VERY happy with my purchase

[SyntaxError]

dammit nicad! beat me by like 5 seconds!!

[nicad]

oh yes and BTW- for those of you who thought stiking your fringer in a non lvl10 mag was bad news.... heres what about .2 seconds in a mayhem can do.
the pen is (was) pretty hard plastic with a rubber sleeve..
SNAP!
http://www.deadlywind.com/files/snap.jpg

[keiphers]

All I can say is wow.

[sniper1rfa]

danism, you didnt happen to be carrying a blue warped e-mag at CCPB sunday (or were there with somebody who had one), and see a gold mayhem with a mysteriously blue trigger, did you.. (and some shrimpy 15 year old holding it, possibly shooting it over the chrono)? :D

how didja like my gun? if it was indeed you, you were the ONLY person there who had EVER seen one (albiet pics).

darn, it WAS you, your in cape cod and you said cape is the best place in mass. d'oh! shoulda said something, you coulda shot it! lol
just another reason for AO jerseys....

nicad, swweeeeet! i am definately making something like that. have you run run paint through that sucker (specifically somewhere between the bolt and the breech wall)?

[nicad]

yep held a ball with tape in the breach... acted LUST like a mag lvl10 (but closed bolt..).
with the ball suspended half in/out of the breach, and the marker gased up, the bolt moved forward and stopped on the ball.. repeated trigger pulls resulted in a small amount of air firing out the bolt and then the bolt moving back/forward just to stop on the ball again. over and over about 50 times on the same ball.. the ball started getting a little mal-formed and indentions in it from the repeated pressure.
remove the ball (or chamber a ball), and it acts just like a regualr mayhem.. even though i can just barely tell the bolt is moveing a little slower going forwadr in 1st stage.. thus the need for a slightly lighter spring..

out!

[sniper1rfa]

my spring will be way too light, its almost half the pressure of the stock one. 3/8 piston will chop a ball with my spring, as that will put like 10 pounds on the ball. no good. it might work, but you will probably have to make a smaller piston (im making mine 9/32, so it never ever ever chops). also, if you make another piston, make it the same except make the small piston start where the old threaded part starts. i have noticed that withought the 1/2" of hose on the back of the old piston, the bolt sits way way back when open. with the new piston and the half inch spacer, it should work perfectly, and the bolt will rest in a nicer spot on the edge of the breech. also, you gotta be careful, your bolt may be going back far enough to clear the whole front piece, and may jam once in a while.