My idea (or half idea) for a closed bolt automag

[InvisibleBill]

Okay, I am fairly new too mags, and I am not to techy, but I had an idea for a closed bolt mag. My idea was that you could use an air powered ram (not sure what the tech term is) that is using air from the reg to close the bolt. When the marker is gassed up, the air that enters the air chamber would also push the ram forward, moving the bolt into the barrel. then, when the marker was fired, the air chamber and ram would be emptied of air, and the bolt spring would push the bolt back, feeding another ball into the barrel. Then, air fills the chamber and ram, pushing the bolt forward.
I am not sure if this would work, so any opinion and advice would be accepted. I have looked at Punishers PneuMag, which is partly why my mind started thinking about this, though I thought that if the three way wasn't needed, it would be more stable performance and maintance wise. Thanks IB.

[sniper1rfa]

the problem lies in the fact that the mag empties the dump chamber as soon as the bolt is closed. to change that would be to change the base of the operation of the mag.

[InvisibleBill]

hmmm. I didn't think about that. I'll think some more. Thanks. IB.

[Miscue]

There is no reason to convert any gun to closed bolt. Closed bolt offers ZERO advantages.

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by Miscue
There is no reason to convert any gun to closed bolt. Closed bolt offers ZERO advantages.

There's no reason to do a lot of the things in paintball. It's still an interesting tinker project.

[Have Blue]

I disagree that closed bolt offers no advantages - A closed bolt system should provide a more stable firing platfrom, as you have less mass being flung around before the ball is actually fired - compare the moving mass of a Viking (bolt and hammer) vs. an Excalibur (just the hammer).

Additionally, it would seem to me that a closed bolt system could theoretically be more consistent (in velocity) than an open bolt system. I say this because in an open bolt system, the ball is chambered and fired in the same process. It's possible that changes in ball orientation could affect how easily the ball is chambered, thus using different amounts of energy. This differing energy that gets robbed from the chambering portion of the sequence means a different amount of energy available for the firing portion of the sequence.

[InvisibleBill]

Thanks for standing up for closed bolt guns. I agree, they are more stable. Since the bolt is closed when the gas is released, your velocity will be more consistant from shot to shot in cockers and the like, unlike say, an angel or bushmaster.
Miscue:Think about how cockers are known for their accuracy. Wouldn't that be awesome if the mag had killer accuracy and was super easy to maintain?
Anyway, if any one has anymore help or comments, I would like to hear them. Thanks IB.

[sniper1rfa]

oh come on, open bolt guns can be just as accurate as closed, and vise versa. to prove this, i took my mayhem (closed/dye excel) and put three shots on top of each other at about 30 yds. i then took a friends mag and put three shots on top of each other on the same board. did the same with an impulse, and a cocker. bols position has been proved time and time again to be irrelevent.

now, saying that, converting a mag to closed bolt would be SWEET, just because it would take some hard work and thought.

[InvisibleBill]

I agree, there is not much of difference in accuracy at 30 yds. But what about at 50 yds? Then that extra gas that doesn't go down the barrel might mean the difference between an elimination and a miss. But again, it is possible to use a "carpet bombing" (spray and pray) technique to circumvent the whole accuracy agruement, but it is fun to get those one shot eliminations:). By the way sniper1rfa, do you like the impluse? My friend was looking into one...Thanks, IB.

[sniper1rfa]

actually, i hate them. sloppiest trigger ive ever pulled.

[Have Blue]

I must agree with sniper1fa - note that I never stated that closed bolt guns are more accurate, as that's patently untrue - they should exhibit the very same accuracy as an open bolt gun. Assuming that the guns are clamped down, that is. It's reasonable to say that one gun might be more accurate than another in the hands of a certain player because that player may be able to exercise less control on how much a gun jumps around when shooting.

[Kweasi]

I don't buy this idea that open-bolt marker "jostle" the paint more than closed-bolt and hense closed-bolts are more consistent.

Any "jostle" only exists in the breech and once the ball is in the barrel it's irrelevent. And let's not forget that the ball is in the barrel before the air-charge sends it on it's way in either set-up. Essentially, ALL markers fire from a closed-bolt. The only difference in each operating system is how they wait to recieve the ball before firing.

-Kweasi

[Gambit22]

I have to go against the recoil argument as well. In paintball markers there isn't enough mass moving to make much of a difference. In addition, before the ball is a fired in an Autococker, the striker moves and hits the valve, therefore we still have moving mass before the ball is fired. In addition we have to remember that the mass of the moving parts is tiny compared to the overall mass of the entire setup, even more so if we include the tank and the full hopper in the total mass.

[Have Blue]

There isn't enough moving mass to make a difference? Obviously you've never fired a VM-68 :)

[Gambit22]

Well that one I'll give you :)

[Nomad]

The only advantage of a mag close bolt I could really think of is noise reduction. I have yet to see an open bolt marker that that's quiet (with the exception of electros).

However most close bolts I've ever fired are surprisingly quiet (again, cept for maybe the AT85).

That's my useless .00002 cents.

[InvisibleBill]

Hehehe...Mass? Go fire a m98 as fast as you can. The thing climbs. Now, having a gun climb isn't that bad, you just compensate for the rise. The main reason I would like a closed bolt mag is because it would be a bit more accurate. Now if any one tells me theres no difference between open and closed, go shoot a m98 or procarbine with out a hopper, then shoot an autococker. me and my friend did a little test, since so many people say that the 98 has massive amounts of air going in to the hopper. we stacked balls into the elbow of each gun (a m98 and a procarbine) and fired. Each time the balls jumped up a bit. We haven't done this with an autococker, since no-one that I know in Bend has an autococker, but I have heard that there is no "ball bounce", so if any one does try this, I would love to know the results. Ah, well, if any of you people would help me with my design delimma (did I spell that right? probably not), That would be real cool. Thanks, IB.

[Gambit22]

Oh, Jesus. That's his proof.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason why the Cocker doesn't jump as much is because it uses a ram to recock rather than an unregulated burst of air?And that the blowback burst is normally around 800 psi, compared to 100 psi? Cockers DO have blowback, violent blowback if they are mistimed.

[Kweasi]

As for the claim that closed bolt marker as quieter- that may be a trend but it's certainly not a rule.

A well tuned Matrix is possibly the questest marker on the feild, anywhere, ever. It's a very bold claim, and not one that I have the means to varify, so I have to ask that you "just trust me".

Anyway, it's an open bolt.

-Kweasi

[Gambit22]

Well, that may be a byproduct of another overused term: low pressure. I don't think the gas would make quite the same bang at the end of a barrel as if it used higher pressure.

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by Gambit22
Well, that may be a byproduct of another overused term: low pressure. I don't think the gas would make quite the same bang at the end of a barrel as if it used higher pressure.

Doesn't matter, he still countered your statement.

You do understand why you shouldn't be allowed to say "A = B" and if someone said "not if A is one and B is two" you said "well it shouldn't count then."

This really is a horrible argument for both sides, especially considering so many exceptions apply to every "rule" of open bolt and closed bolt comparasins.

It's all in the gun...

[Gambit22]

Uh...which statement of mine exactly did he counter? I simply hypothesized on the reason why the Matrix may make less noise.

[Kweasi]

Let's keep it Blue gentlemen....

The point of by previous post is supported by what both of you say. That is, "quiet" is not something that can be attributed to bolt operation, there are other, WAY more important factors. Like valve dwell, and operating pressure.

-Kweasi

[Gambit22]

I don't think that bolt operation affects much of anything. In an Autococker a hammer still strikers the valve, and it still uses a Sheridan system to release gases through the bolt. Like I said previously, the only think that really separates it from a JABB is the method of recocking via a ram.

[chris99506]

blazers and cocker's are closed bolt and that's why they shoot so straight and far

[Have Blue]

Cockers and Blazers shoot straight and far - that I will give you. However, they shoot no straighter and no farther than any other gun, closed bolt or not. There are no closed bolt pixies that gently carry your ball through the atmosphere - the ball doesn't care what sort of gun it was launched from. Clamp down a cocker next to a mag and you'll see that there is no discernable difference in how the ball flies.

[Kweasi]

Nuh-uh!

My pro-shop owner, Jub-Jub, says that cockers can shoot all the way across the feild at 50fps, but mags only go straight for 20ft then suddenly drop no matter how fast you shoot. Unless you have a boomstick. And a really expensive tank.

-Kweasi

[Gambit22]

I think that was MuffinButt, I don't know a Jub-Jub.

[thei3ug]

i have a HUGE muffin butt.

[chris99506]

i have a stock class phantom (which is closed bolt) with an all american barrel and an old spyder compact that i use as a backup for my RT, the spyder has an All American barrel the same length as the one on my phantom pump. my phantom shoots further and straighter than my spyder or my rt, i'm not saying it's way way better but it is noticeable.

[InvisibleBill]

Howdy. My theory is that the closed bolt design puts that gas that would normally exit through the elbow behind the ball, giving it better velocity. Thanks for giving you opinions! IB.



Geez, I didn't think this idea o' mine would spawn a some twenty odd replies...

[Kweasi]

Chris, Bill,

A ball will only go farther than another if:

1) It is fired at A HIGHER VELOCITY (capitalized because this is the big one).

2) It is fired from a higher elevation.

3) It is fired at a steeper angle (though equal to or less than 45 degree to the horizontal).

4) It is fired on a planet/plantoid will less gravitational force than the first.

5) It is fired in an environment will less air resistance.

6) The second paint is made in such a manner that it offers less air resistance.

Bolt configuration has possitvely nothing to do with range. Repeat: Bolt configuration has possitvely nothing to with range. If you insist that you have observed a closed bolt marker shooting further than an open-bolt marker when they both fire at the exact same paint at the same veloctiy then you are an idiot and/or a liar (flatlines and other backspin devices aside). That sounds harsh, and it is, but it is completely inexcuseable that this absurd myth is allowed to continue, especially here.

-Kweasi

[mikebridge]

heh, ok, could it be possible that closed bolt systems are more gas efficient than open bolt systems? since the entire air charge will be used to drive the ball down the barrel, instead of some it escaping the feed tube? and does your phantom fire farther because of some intrinsic quality, or is it because of how you are firing it? aka, 1 shot, wait 1 second, 1 shot, as opposed to your semi, where you fire 3 quick shots, then wait, 3 quick shots. one will be more consistent than the other.

[thei3ug]

It can be more efficient until the ends of the earth. It will not matter. The chronograph measures velocity after the ball leaves the barrel. LONG after the gun has stopped affecting the ball. For all purposes, if those balls are going the same speed, are fired from the same spot, they will go ABOUT the same distance (being subject to the elements, of course).

possibilities why one flew farther:
1) You WANT to believe the ball goes farther, so that's what you see. It's a common human condition. Eyes are the worst recording devices for measurements.
2) They chronoed in differently.
3) One of their adjusters backed out.
4) CO2 fluctuates enough to change the velocity of one or the other.
5) God decided physics doesn't apply to your guns.

[314159]

a couple of the previous posts forgot to make the following points.

the more money you spend on a marker, the farther it will shoot ;) *

adding a pump arm to anything makes it shoot farther.... this includes the automag vs pumpmag, autococker/sniper 2... ;)

closed bolt operation "0wn3z" physics, it will make you shoot further, more accurate, have your paintballs follow other physics... even as you approach high rates of fire, and closed bolt operation mimics open bolt operation, closed bolt still is better ;)

some mornings i wake up and wonder why i even bother with certan types of people

*i have seen people that make the argument that their marker shoots futher than brand x marker carry tools to change their velocity on the field.

[InvisibleBill]

Okay, why does the pump arm make it shoot farther? Thanks, IB. Oh, yeah, kweasi, wouldn't that extra gas that hits the ball in a closed bolt gun give it the more veloctiy?

[Kweasi]

Read very carefully:

We all agree that setting aside things like air resistance and the angle and elevation of the shooting platform, the thing that decides range is velocity- yes? Right, Good.

We all agree that velocity is the speed of a ball as measured by a chronograph- after it has left the barrel- yes? Right, good.

So, that means that whatever the bolt does to the ball before it exits the barrels doesn't mean dink-all, since it's the velocity of the ball AFTER IT LEAVES THE BARREL that's important- Yes? Right? Good!

So, that means that open-bolts and closed-bolts, if firing at the same velocity fire at the same range- YES!! RIGHT!! GOOD!!! DAMMIT!!!!

You guys are making my blood pressure go through the ROOF!

-Kweasi

[Have Blue]

IB, the pump arm does not make anything shoot farther - it was a statement made in jest. It would be like claiming that a double trigger will make a gun shoot farther.

To put Kweasi's post another way, if you have a cocker and a mag sitting side-by-side, and both are chrono'd to 285, the closed bolt gun will not have a higher velocity - they are both shooting 285!

[InvisibleBill]

okay, thanks for you comments...now, though, I am stumped on my design/idea. So could you help by giving Ideas? thanks IB.

[PBpunk]

my autococker shoots father AND flater then a mag cause its a closed bolt design cause the magical blue fairys make it work better cause they only like closed bolts

[magman007]

bill, why would you wanna ruin sometiin that is perfect? making a mag closedbolt i think would not add any advantages, it would be cool and be like BIZZWAH WOOT! closedbolt mag Yeah....but i cant see any actual use for it. also, how would you return the bolt? you would have to stup using the spring

[Kaiser Bob]

Open bolt vs. Closed bolt hehehe... They both operate the same at a rate of fire more then a couple bps. Air will still come up the breech of a cocker if you fire a string of shots.

PS- 300 fps is 300 fps. Even if the extra air down the barrel gave a higher velocity, you would still need to turn it down to 300 fps :)

[InvisibleBill]

blue fairies?? I have orange fairies that bless my mag every day. beat that!:) The only reason I would ever think of turning a mag into a closed bolt operation is for the fun of it, and it was fun to think of how I would turn the mag into a closed bolt gun, because there isn't much else to think about when you a swimming a timed 400 five times in a row. :D Rock on, IB

[The Creature]

ok, this thread has a lot to do with open vs closed bolt and i need to say the following.

1) open bolt and closed bolt markers will attain the SAME DISTANCE!

2) closed bolt markers ARE MORE ACCURATE AT LONGER DISTANCES than open bolt!

The fact is ANYONE who has shot a cocker (with good paint/barrel match...VERY IMPORTANT) and shot any open bolt gun, they will deffinently say the cocker was more accurate. this is not because they love the gun, or are "cocker jocks" or that kind of crap...the fact is the gun really is DEAD ON ACCURATE AT ALL DISTANCES from when it leaves the barrel to when it hits the ground.

the further away your target is, the more accurate a closed bolt cocker will be. anyone can sit here and blab on and on about physics and why this and that is true or false, but the simple fact remains that if you shoot a cocker and then shoot lets say a mag, the accuracy up close (say 30 yards) is identicle...however at a further distance (lets say 50 yards) the paintballs shot from the cocker will have a far more stable and identicle trajectory than the mags, thus making the gun more accurate.

I currently own a minimag with a freak barrel system. my friend owns a 2002 stock vert feed cocker with a J&J barrel. in any event we wanted to test which of our guns was more accurate. we both used PMI premium paint for our tests (i had the correct freak incert and *the paint* is the same bore size as the J&J). we held our guns at the same angle perpendicular to the ground and fired a string of 15 rounds each. my gun (the mag) was just as accurate as his cocker for approximately the first 35 yards. after that my gun would be inconsistant, meaning the ball did not always end up remaining in a straight line. my friend's cocker retained the same perfect line of paint from start to finish. ball after ball would stay in a near perfect line one after the other. same at 10 yards, 20 yards, 30 yards all the way till it hit the ground i'd say about 50-60 yards away. i did the same test with his cocker and my tippmann and my mag and my tippmann (the tippmann also had a J&J barrel) and was no where near the cocker and less consistant than the mag. the same test was preformed with a spyder xtra, flash and compaq. none of those guns came close to the cocker, and all had a J&J barrel. all guns were run on compressed air also. the only gun that preformed nearly identicle to the cocker was an angel.

no physics was needed for this test, the results spoke for themself. the fact is that cockers in general, when working properly...when we did this test my friend had taken the gun stock from the box and not touched a thing on it meaning it was all factory timed and working perfectly, are a more accurate gun than any open bolt. i only speak for cockers when i say closed bolt, because i have not had any experiece with any other closed bolt gun.

if anyone says open bolt vs close bolt is a myth, then before making yourself look like a fool go and compare a properly timed and working cocker to any other open bolt gun and prove to yourself that you're an idiot, instead of wasting other people's time doing it for you.

[FreshmanBob]

Originally posted by chris99506
my phantom shoots further and straighter than my spyder or my rt, i'm not saying it's way way better but it is noticeable.

Then maybe your phantoms velocity tends to spike w/ 12 grams?

As far as the moving mass goes, someone do me a favor an weigh an autococker hammer and an automag bolt, i doubt there will be much difference..

[FreshmanBob]

Originally posted by The Creature
we both used PMI premium paint for our tests (i had the correct freak incert and it is the same bore size as the J&J).

I hate to tell you, but the freak inserts labeling isn't always accurate, usually pretty off. Try doing the same test with a j&j.

[The Creature]

i did it with 4 different incerts, the 684, 685, 687 and 689. those were the closet matching bore sizes. the 687 worked the best and yeilded the best results. however, none of them compared to the cocker at approximately 50 yards. i do know what i am doing, i am not some newbie feeding the hype.

[The Creature]

also, the spyders (compact, xtra, flash) and tippmann 98 custom had the J&J ceramic barrel...same one as the cocker only different threading...and yet they did not come close to the cocker at even 40 yards, explain that.

[The Creature]

Originally posted by FreshmanBob
As far as the moving mass goes, someone do me a favor an weigh an autococker hammer and an automag bolt, i doubt there will be much difference..

for a regular level 7 bolt i bet there won't be much of a difference, but as for the level 10 bolt it would be way lighter. i will test it out next time i visit my friend.

[Coaster]

The creature, were you shooting these guns over a crono?

[The Creature]

the cocker was having a bit of trouble keeping a steady velocity because it was new and the o-rings had not been worn in...however later in the day the gun was finally getting a steady reading over the crono of between 280-290 fps. my minimag was shooting consistantly between 293-297. the tippmann was between 275-290. the spyder compact was all over the place. the xtra about 277 (thats about the average cause it did jump high and low once or twice). and the flash at around 275-290.

the velocity jumps between each gun do play a role in the accuracy, however that is part of the defect of each gun and it must be taken into consideration. my mag was shooting PERFECTLY all day keeping within 4 feet per second with each shot. mags deffinently deserve a lot of credit for being so consistant because it really helps a lot. after the o-rings on the cocker were worn in the velocity spikes stopped and it stayed consistant at around 280-290.

[The Creature]

so are you guys done trying to find flaws in my test or can you simply not accept the fact that cockers are a more accurate gun because of their better and more efficient design? before you nit-pick and say "thats crap" why don't you go try it for yourself? you can be happy with your spyder or tippmann, they are good and reliable guns, however the cocker will preform better, as would an impy, angel or bushy. they are just better guns, and when the cocker is working properly it is the better gun of the group. if you want a perfect blend of speed, accuracy and distance then get an angel...if you want the most superior range and accuracy, then get a cocker. if you want to have a gun you can rely on to work and not have to worry about breaking or having to adjust, and will last, then get a mag. if you do not want to empty your wallet on a gun, then get a spyder. that is the way it is...stop trying to give explinations as to why "all guns were created equil" because they are not!

[Have Blue]

Actually, I have bench mounted a cocker right next to a mag, chronied them, and tested their shot patterns at 4 different ranges (using a large gridded board as a target, noting the impact of each shot). There was no noticable difference between the two.

[FreshmanBob]

Again, until you use a J&J barrel on the mag, use the same pressure regulating system on all the gun's and give people more than a day or two to reply, I'm not convinced. Especially seeing how I an many others have had different experiance.

I will give you that a spyder and tippman won't be very accurate, but that is the whole moving mass theory. Most other somewhat high end guns should shoot pretty much the same.

[The Creature]

you are so pathetic...what you are asking me to do is make all the guns created EQUAL and they are NOT so stop asking me to do it.

you could put all the upgrades in the world on a spyder, but in the end it will still be a SPYDER...it has a limit to the preformance it can achieve...the cocker's limit is much much higher, even straight out of the box stock. that is the point i am trying to make.

[Have Blue]

I must agree with FreshmanBob - it is imperative that components which may affect the ball's flight must be matched as well as possible between the guns being tested. Otherwise, how can you claim that it was the magic pixies in the cocker and not the barrel? When I did my tests, I went out and purchased 2 Armson barrels and 2 PMI ceramics in the same length for each gun. To do otherwise is to knowingly run a flawed experiment.

[The Creature]

you people annoy the hell out of me...i simply do not understand why it is so impossible for you to accept the fact cockers are the most accurate guns on the market. you give me this crap about flawed tests and paint/barrel match, then when i say the tippmann and spyder had the same barrel you give me this "mass" crap...it's true, and that is why the gun is not as effecient as a cocker. the closed bolt system is one of the most amazing things paintball has ever seen...the drawback to it is the fact they are complicated and can break easily. it seriously is like talking to a group of brick walls in here. i am a mag owner, and i love my mag, however the accuracy is simply not as good as the cocker's, and never will be, unless you turned it into a cocker (i.e. the closed bolt mag idea).

[Coaster]

if the accuracy is so good at long ranges with cockers, why doesn't Bud Orr say that in his adds? Because he knows the truth, and it would hurt him financialy if he did.

[Have Blue]

why it is so impossible for you to accept the fact cockers are the most accurate guns on the market

Because as I mentioned above, I did the experiment, and both guns shot with equal accuracy. That is why I cannot accept the 'fact' that cockers are more accurate. It's called science.

[magman007]

ok, listen "the Creature"

First off, you did not do the test in a controlled enviroment. Now i dont mean no wind, perfect whether stuff, i mean you didnt try to test one variable. You added too many variables and came up with a load of crap.

First off, you didnt use the same barrel to test. I dont really care about that, you can try it.

Second off, you were holding the paintball markers. Are you stupid? your friend is probabally a better shot than you, thats all! IF you wanted to test accuarcy you should have bench mounted the markers. Hence waht Have Blue did.

Third off, was the cocker running on co2? was the mag running on C02? did you use the same tanks?

Also you said the cocker was shooting irradically, how do you know it didnt start to act up again?


fourth off, you seem way to influenced by hype, and that you did not research your material. go look on warpig, they did a closebolt vs open bolt comparison and found no difference.

Also i ask you, why are some of the most popular markers open bolted? (Angel, timmy, mag, bushy, impy....) if it was so bad, do you think people would use them? do you think companies would spend thousands of dollars producing something that wasnt goping to satisy the consumer?

Let me guess, you think the low pressure of the cocker makes it accurate also? well lets see, the mag is LP too! ha ha. give it up man, ok? we know the facts, and you do not have them. you need to do your reaserch. please, come back when you know what you are talking about

[The Creature]

alright magman, before you go shooting your mouth off with senseless crap why don't you first read what i wrote. i did mention that i used compressed air for all guns. each gun had a Nitro Duct tank 68ci/3000psi. and for each test I shot the gun, i did not shoot WITH my friend, i physically took his gun over a crono and shot it. at the beginning of the day he was having velocity spikes, he used it and wore in the o-rings until he was remaining consistant, then i did the test. so shut your mouth with this useless crap trying to flame my experiment.

[The Creature]

Originally posted by magman007
fourth off, you seem way to influenced by hype, and that you did not research your material. go look on warpig, they did a closebolt vs open bolt comparison and found no difference.

Also i ask you, why are some of the most popular markers open bolted? (Angel, timmy, mag, bushy, impy....) if it was so bad, do you think people would use them? do you think companies would spend thousands of dollars producing something that wasnt goping to satisy the consumer?

i am not influenced by the hype, i took the cocker and shot it and see how it did compared to my mag, tippmann, xtra, compact and flash. the cocker preformed the best.

and at no point did i say that angels, timmys, bushys, impys, or mags were bad...you are putting words in my mouth in a desperate attempt to make me look like an idiot. now i sit here defending myself against things i never said, thanks, i hope you feel special now.

[magman007]

Originally posted by The Creature


you are putting words in my mouth in a desperate attempt to make me look like an idiot.

Well, i didnt make you look like an idiot, you did it your self. And yes, i do feel special, because i know the truth.

First off, you have to bench test the markers. ANd some one already did that. And once he got the real results (the ones you didnt want to hear) you dismissed them. HAve Blue has been testing things in the paintball industry for some time, and has dispelled alot of the myths. Also, Mr. Bill Mills of warpig tested that closed bolt, vs open bolt didnt matter. ok? soyou look stupid here, trying to prove evidence wrong, this stuff may float over in PBC and PBN but not here, not where we have the cold hard evidence. It is physics my friend, look into them.

[MAGician]

Originally posted by Gambit22
Oh, Jesus. That's his proof.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason why the Cocker doesn't jump as much is because it uses a ram to recock rather than an unregulated burst of air?And that the blowback burst is normally around 800 psi, compared to 100 psi? Cockers DO have blowback, violent blowback if they are mistimed.

Exactly the operation is the same as a semiauto firearm
AND closed bolts are more accurate because it closes of the firing chamber. As for the 30 yd test between open and closed thats like pitting a rifle(semi auto) against a handgun and at that distance there aint much difference.( Both guns would have to be shooting the SAME exact ammo.)
At say 50 or 60 yds. there would be a massive difference

[Gambit22]

Open bolts seal off the breech before firing too, you know, if that's what you're implying. At any distance it will not make a difference.

[magman007]

ok, you people are incredibly thick headed. We told you that you are wrong and you reffuse to accept it. THen we tell you to test it correctly and you keep telling us but this and but that. well give up already. also look at this.


open bolt. open:closed: open:closed: open:closed: open:closed
closes bolt. Closed: open:closed: open:closed:


NOtice a difference? no, the bolts act the same in rapid firing. GIVE IT UP you are wrong. OK? tell me exactally why you are not wrong. tell me with correctly conducted experiments. tell me relating to physics how exactally a closed bolt marker can be more accurate. TELL me. there is no way. THank you. Deep Blue was created for intelligent threads, this one was, until you started crapping it up. If you wish to become respected members, learn your facts, then if you have something intelligent, and not ignorant, please post it for all to see


also, if you kknew your markers, you would know that mags use a return spring instead of unregulated air to recock

[Vegeta]

Lets look at the operations here:

Cocker:
Closed-Fire-Open-Repeat.

Mag:
Open-Closed-Fire-Repeat.

You misunderstand the operation of hte mag. The gun does not fire directly after pulling hte trigger. It fires at the END of the bolt stroke when the piston opens the powertube and gas exits. At the end of the bolt travel the bolt is sealed in the barrel. The only diffrence is the orded in which is it performed.


Cocker:
.......-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open

Mag:
Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open


Let's look at those side by side:

.......-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open
Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open


Same thing. The only diffrence is the time of the gas release. The cocker's is at the beginning, and hte mag's is at the end of the bolt stroke.

[The Creature]

ok, tell me exactly what you would have to do to a stock minimag to make it preform exactly like a stock vert 2002 autococker. and if any one of you fools dares to tell me that the stock mag will be as accurate as a stock cocker i will come to your house and slap you up side the head for being an idiot.

[Vegeta]

You.




Idiot.











.I don't think I am the thickheaded one here. it has been proven in tests that they shoot exactly the same. Equal distance and equal accuracy WHEN and ONLY WHEN the expiriment is performed under controlled conditions. that means same barrels same velocity same mounting same input pressure same tank same everything.

[The Creature]

alright, so tell me EXACTLY what to make each thing for the cocker and for the mag and i will go do it. if they work identicle i will be happy to have gotten my mag to work that way, and will come back and post my results proving myself wrong. if it doesn't work, then you can bite me :mad:

[MAGician]

Originally posted by magman007
ok, you people are incredibly thick headed. We told you that you are wrong and you reffuse to accept it. THen we tell you to test it correctly and you keep telling us but this and but that. well give up already. also look at this.


open bolt. open:closed: open:closed: open:closed: open:closed
closes bolt. Closed: open:closed: open:closed:


NOtice a difference? no, the bolts act the same in rapid firing. GIVE IT UP you are wrong. OK? tell me exactally why you are not wrong. tell me with correctly conducted experiments. tell me relating to physics how exactally a closed bolt marker can be more accurate. TELL me. there is no way. THank you. Deep Blue was created for intelligent threads, this one was, until you started crapping it up. If you wish to become respected members, learn your facts, then if you have something intelligent, and not ignorant, please post it for all to see


also, if you kknew your markers, you would know that mags use a return spring instead of unregulated air to recock

SO wut if i'm worng geez u make it sound like its the end of the world or somthin. lightin up a little magman. i doubt if you've never been worng before. SO FORGIVE ME FOR SPEAKIN MY MIND!!!!

[billmi]

Originally posted by Have Blue
I disagree that closed bolt offers no advantages - A closed bolt system should provide a more stable firing platfrom, as you have less mass being flung around before the ball is actually fired - compare the moving mass of a Viking (bolt and hammer) vs. an Excalibur (just the hammer).


That is a generalization that while often true, is not always true. It has to do with specific paintgun design, and not bolt position.

For example, the Delrin blow forward bolt in a Sidekick Semi weighs less than most metal Autococker hammers.

Moving mass (both speed and weight come into play here for total intertia) compared to still mass (i.e. movement generated by a heavy part can be off-set by a heavy receiver dampening it out) before firing can have a negative effect on accuracy for a single, handheld shot.

That doesn't apply much to a typical paintball situation though where players tend to shoot strings of multiple shots. In that situation, total moving mass vs. still mass will affect accuracy if it happens before or after the shot is fired, because when it happens after a shot, it is happening before the next shot.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by
Since the bolt is closed when the gas is released, your velocity will be more consistant from shot to shot in cockers and the like, unlike say, an angel or bushmaster.


The bolt is also closed in Bushmasters, Automags, Angels, Spyders, and other open bolt paintguns when the gas is released.

The terms "open bolt" and "closed bolt" refer to bolt position at rest between shots, not bolt position when the gas is released.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by
I agree, there is not much of difference in accuracy at 30 yds. But what about at 50 yds? Then that extra gas that doesn't go down the barrel might mean the difference between an elimination and a miss.

If that extra gas did go down the barrel, the velocity would be higher, and you'd have to adjust the paintgun to eliminate that "extra gas" (i.e. tune down the velocity).

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by
Howdy. My theory is that the closed bolt design puts that gas that would normally exit through the elbow behind the ball, giving it better velocity. Thanks for giving you opinions! IB.

That makes perfect sense Bill.

If all paingun valves put out the exact same amount of gas when fired, you would have an advantage to having a bolt/recock system that is more gas efficient (not that open bolt is necessarily less efficient, but many blowback open bolt paintguns do waste gas up the feedneck as you have noticed). The better paintguns would have more velocity and thus better range.

The problem with that theory is two fold. First not all paintgun valves are the same. Secondly, on most paintguns the velocity is adjustable. Since paintball velocities, for safety reasons are limited to 300 fps, and most paintguns are capable or reaching and exceeding this limit, there is no "velocity advantage" to closed bolt paintguns.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by The Creature
The fact is ANYONE who has shot a cocker (with good paint/barrel match...VERY IMPORTANT) and shot any open bolt gun, they will deffinently say the cocker was more accurate.

That is not true.

The SC Ironmen have shot 'cockers and they shoot open bolt Matrix paintguns. They do not say the 'cocker is more accurate. This is from casual conversation, not something they're forced to say for sponsorship reasons. The same goes for Ground Zero and their open bolt Intimidators. The same for the guys on Aftershock that shoot open bolt paintguns - they don't have to choose based on sponsorship, they get to shoot what they want.

If there really was this difference in accuracy, why would so many pro and top am players, who's chance of winning depends on being able to shoot accurately, use open bolt paintguns?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Ooops, hit reply instead of edit :-P

[The Creature]

i would assume cause they are (usually) faster and more reliable than cockers...

In any event, i did not mention guns such as the impy and bushy or angel much, because i really did not think much about them. I guess you are right, but considering i have never shot one of them i can not compare them to any of the guns i listed and used. If i did, according to what i hear, i am sure they would work just as good, if not better.

I generalized and i shouldn't have, sorry.

[FreshmanBob]

Bill Mills,
Your the man.

[The Creature]

BIll i appreciate how responcibly and unbiosed you reply to people whether right or wrong, because it makes things so much easier. I do not mind admitting i am wrong to someone who can still treat me with common decency. Naturally the more offensive a responce is the more people tend to become defensive, so when someone proves you're wrong, but does it in a way that is fair, considerate and non threatening it allows the person to say "oh ok i see your point, now i know better." Instead of "screw you ^%@&*"

[Top Secret]

I have seen zero difference in the accuracy of my cocker or my mags which both utilize the same Freak kit on them. I have also seen no difference between my cocker which I run with stock internals vs. the cockers of people who use the various LP internals on the market. It's hype. Don't buy it.

Bill, Matricies are closed bolt btw. ;)

[billmi]

The Creature,

Thanks. I'd much rather spend time talking about paintball than getting into a 4th grade level name calling match. One of the reasons AO is on the short list of forums I post in is because it is well policed by the mods and has a good set of rules in place to keep it more to conversation and discussion, rather than little ego contests.

Top Secret,

No sir, the Matrix is an open bolt paintgun. See the 2000 World Cup episode of PigTV (http://www.pigtv.net/00_summary/00_WorldCup.shtml). There's an interview with Eric Stork introducing the 'gun and shots of it firing without the breech in place, where you can clearly see the bolt back in the rest position, and popping forward when it fires.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Top Secret]

Interesting, I always believed that they operated closed bolt.

[billmi]

Originally posted by Top Secret
Interesting, I always believed that they operated closed bolt.

I think, at one point some of their ads said something similar to Air Power's label that they used for the Vector - "Simulated closed bolt." That's "marketing speak" for "open bolt."

I was told by a magazine editor that the Firestorm kit PGI makes for the Autococker, which the manufacturer says has both "open bolt" and "closed bolt" modes is also always open bolt. The "closed bolt" mode just forces a delay holding the bolt closed for a moment longer from the time it closes until it releases the gas (haven't seen it myself, so take it with a grain of salt.)

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Gambit22]

The Firestorm is released in two version: open bolt and closed bolt.

[billmi]

Originally posted by Gambit22
The Firestorm is released in two version: open bolt and closed bolt.

And according to the magazine editor (again, I haven't seen this in person to confirmit ) the spoke to me about this, the version they is being sold as closed bolt is actually open bolt, and just waits for a longer time period after the bolt closes before it fires.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Vegeta]

Mistre Mills is just cleaning up in this thread.

Nice to see someone well know in the comunity be so informative someplace like here.

[Top Secret]

Originally posted by billmi


I think, at one point some of their ads said something similar to Air Power's label that they used for the Vector - "Simulated closed bolt." That's "marketing speak" for "open bolt."

I was told by a magazine editor that the Firestorm kit PGI makes for the Autococker, which the manufacturer says has both "open bolt" and "closed bolt" modes is also always open bolt. The "closed bolt" mode just forces a delay holding the bolt closed for a moment longer from the time it closes until it releases the gas (haven't seen it myself, so take it with a grain of salt.)

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Just re-toured the E-Matrix page. I'm suprised AO-ers haven't ripped that gun to shreds with all the claims that they put out. "Statistically the most accurate..." "ROF: Classified. No equal" When will manufactuers learn...

[magman007]

hmm, bill im sorry if i came off as a little child arguing, but after the creature being told repeatedly by several memebers, i know i started to get a little testy. I appoligize. Any ways, the creature has been steared to truth.


Now if olny arkfear would listen...

[The Creature]

lol, you just said sorry for acting childish, yet you still play the blame game trying to explain why it was everyone else's fault but your own.

[bapachu]

Ok, I know this post is kinda old, but still, I want to put something up. I (in my head) talked to myself for quite a while about why a closed bolt gun might have more range than an open bolt gun. This is what we (I) decided on. Ok, so it has been stated that both guns fire in the same order, but the gas release times are different, this is very true. However we all seem to have forgotten about gravity.

In a closed bolt gun, the ball is fired from the "rest" position. This means that there is little or no movement occuring as far as the ball is concerned. In an open bolt gun the ball is fired from a non-stationary position, the ball may be rolling or the paint possibly swirling inside...hmm...which way would paint swirl?

I believe that the possible "roll" and "air bearring" effect i've read about when combined together may cause a foward-spin on a ball. A foward-spin on a ball would cause the exact opposite of what tippmanns flatline barrel would. (obviously) Thus, the ball looses range. I'm not saying this is "fact" it is an _opinion_, my opinion. Let me know what you think.

I think this may be how the range/accuracy arguments were started years ago. I do believe that a proper paint/barrel match makes all guns equal, but years ago, who knew about that?

[tjmpaintball06]

well with a cocker it is running 80 billion gigawatts through the flux capaciter next to the pneumatics which actually transports the balls back in time the back to the present right in front of where you were shooting. the back block is moving at 88mph which allows travel... the mag just has magical eleves which are sometimes sick.....



























































joke...

[bapachu]

thats funny, but seriously, what do you think about the idea of a foward spin?

[ProX9]

My two cents. I have a viking which is open bolt and its pretty smooth imo, I didnt really know smooth until I shot an excal which the only difference is closed bolt. I noticed that the excal has a different feel ie a lot smoother cycling and therefore it was easier to keep my stream on target. The first game I played with the excal within 5 seconds of the break I put 3 out of 3 shots on someones halo which was barely sticking out, I dont think I would of made that shot with the viking. What im saying is: open and closed bolt have the same potential for trajectory and accuracy but closed bolts are smoother shooting so they have no barrel rise and less side to side movement. However in a bench mount they would perform exactly the same.

[athomas]

It is usually the movement of the bolt and/or ram that causes kick or movement of the gun. If you lighten any moving parts and limit the force on them, then you have no extra energy to be dampened by the body of the gun. No excess energy means no energy to move the gun, which in turn means no kick. This is true for both open bolt or closed bolt guns.

[bapachu]

that makes sense thanks :)

[Magluvr]

Originally posted by Have Blue

Additionally, it would seem to me that a closed bolt system could theoretically be more consistent (in velocity) than an open bolt system. I say this because in an open bolt system, the ball is chambered and fired in the same process. It's possible that changes in ball orientation could affect how easily the ball is chambered, thus using different amounts of energy. This differing energy that gets robbed from the chambering portion of the sequence means a different amount of energy available for the firing portion of the sequence.

Sorry if this has been addressed already but I didn't have time to read the whole post.

Actually the reverse is true, the more tight fitting and precise the firing mechanism and barrel then the more variables will affect the paintballs flight. So, essentially yes it could be more accurate but only if you made the pressure contacting the ball perfectly consistent along with the ball size in relations to the barrel and the balls weight. Since all the variables are not controllable, hence the world variable, it wouldn't make enough difference to actually be noticeable.

[mikebridge]

but would a closed bolt 'mag be more air efficient?