** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[AGD]

Guys,

Post your LVL10 issues here we will try to help.

AGD

[cwuchu]

Here's my issue with the my level 10. I can get the modification to work in my classic RT with only the short spring (it's the same as the stock one). Attempts at using the middle and long ones have failed as the reg piston would just start venting. The carrier I am using is the 1.5 one and the pt piston slides into the pt and inside the pt o-ring just right - not too loose not too tight (the #2 spacer leaked). The problem is the bolt still feels like it's going pretty fast [to chop a ball] with the short spring on it as I have felt it by shooting against my finger. Any helps on how I could get a softer setup?

AGD: You need to replace your regulator piston. It is venting at too low a pressure.

[hitech]

Have you chronoed the marker? You need to turn up the "velocity" when installing level 10. You very well may be shooting down in the 250s.

[Panzerr]

I found that after putting two cases of paint through my new Level 10 kit that i developed a very slight leak in the power tube from time to time. I removed the o-ring carrier and installed the next smallest size and the leak stopped. Apparently the o-ring "broke in" and was a tiny bit too loose.

[Cypres0099]

This isn't really a problem but more of a question.

I noticed that you said to put the cut end of the middle spring on the bolt and put the good end pointing out. Would there be any noticeable difference if you switched it around?

[Minimag2002]

I put in the smallest carrier and it still leaks. the smallest one is no lines no dots right? Could something else be leaking? nothing was leaking before Level 10.
Please Help Me

AGD: Take out all your shims and try it again.

[Manuel_FZR]

How long will it take for the both longer springs to weaken (they are another material than the original short one)? When must the spring be renewed?

AGD: They should last years.

Manuel_FZR: Thanks Tom for the answer.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Minimag2002
I put in the smallest carrier and it still leaks. the smallest one is no lines no dots right? Could something else be leaking? nothing was leaking before Level 10.

Do you have any shims in? If so, that them all out. Put them back one a time, checking for leaks. Make sure everything is oiled. Also, check the condition of the black oring on the outside of the carrier. If you put the carrier in without oil it is possible to damage the oring. Let us know.

[CenterFire]

My friends level 10 came in today, and in the process of putting it together, we realized that the bolt can't fully slide over the power tube tip. When the thicker part of the bolt piston thing gets to the power tube tip, it's too wide to pass through... are we doing something wrong or is there something wrong with the kit?

Any help is appreciated,
CenterFire

EDIT - Sorry thats its in the wrong forum. Mods feel free to scoot it over to Tech. Hoping to get an answer faster in the more crowded forum is all :p

[Potatoboy]

Link to my problem post:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=387573

BlackVCG is sending me some parts that hopefully should get me up and running. (Reg Piston Assembly)

[Jacob]

Originally posted by Cypres0099
This isn't really a problem but more of a question.

I noticed that you said to put the cut end of the middle spring on the bolt and put the good end pointing out. Would there be any noticeable difference if you switched it around?

Yes.

I tried doing that when I was first trying to set mine up. At first I thought that I was having trouble putting my valve assy. in, but when I investigated, it turned out that the spring had actually threaded past where it is supposed to stop, and into the breach. This would definitely not help in preventing ball chops. By placing the cut end against the bolt, you give it a good surface to seat against where it won't thread through.

[hitech]

Originally posted by CenterFire
we realized that the bolt can't fully slide over the power tube tip. When the thicker part of the bolt piston thing gets to the power tube tip, it's too wide to pass through...

It doesn't/shouldn't go in that far. Are you using the new power tube tip that came with the level 10 kit? How far does the power piston extend past the end of the bolt (it should only be about a 1/2 inch or so)?

Here is a link to a cut away view of the new bolt (so you can see if yours is the same):

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=362082

[CenterFire]

When I fully assemble the valve and etc, other than the bolt and spring, everything seems normal. And yes I'm using the new powertube tip. When I try and slide the bolt onto the assembly, it doesnt slide down the power tube. It stops a little less than an inch from where the bumper normally is.

Edit - And after testing, we came to the conclusion that the wider part of the power piston is too wide to fit through the power tube tip...

[hitech]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CenterFire
[B]My friends level 10 came in today, and in the process of putting it together, we realized that the bolt can't fully slide over the power tube tip. When the thicker part of the bolt piston thing gets to the power tube tip, it's too wide to pass through... are we doing something wrong or is there something wrong with the kit?

Any help is appreciated,
CenterFire

AGD: This is very strange, see if it will go over the old power tube tip. If it will see if the new pt tip goes into the original bolt.

[hitech]

I posted you question in the official problems thread. Here is a link to the thread:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=389019#post389019

[CenterFire]

Ok thanks... anyone with any help, feel free to reply to the quote in the official problems thread or here if you're lazy :rolleyes:

[CenterFire]

As clarification, when I fully assemble the valve and etc, other than the bolt and spring, everything seems normal. When I try and slide the bolt onto the assembly, it doesnt slide down the power tube. It stops a little less than an inch from where the bumper normally is. And after testing, we came to the conclusion that the wider part of the power piston is too wide to fit through the power tube tip...

[Nemesis]

oh just thought i let you know that i am his friend he was refering to. you can e-mail me at Kmart_kicker@swirve.com

[personman]

Are you using SBII or the regular one?
You have to use SBII.

[Peanutt]

OK i have taken my mag down to the aother mag guys at the field today and the bolt fits on there lvl ten. they said that my powertube tip was machined wrong.

No it does not go on the old powertube tip when the origanl powertube is assembled, but yes the new powertub tip goes on the original bolt.

Oh yeah i changed my fourm name hope ya dont mind:)

AGD: call us for a replacement bolt.

[Minimag2002]

okay my leaked was fixed when i figured the added pressure in my macro was to much and caused a leak in the connector, (fixed with teflon tape). anyway now i have the 1.5 carrior, and when i try to shoot the marker it shoots then the bolt just starts leaking and won't stop untill i push it back with my battle swab. i have tried diffrent shims and nothing helps im using the original spring and don't have a chrono but im about 2-3 turns out.

P.S.sorry but the tech part of paintball is not my strong side:confused:

AGD: It sounds like your on/off pin is too short. If you fire and hold the trigger does it leak? If not then did you use the backing washer all the way in the bottom?

EDIT: Thank You So Much For The Help Tom YOu Were Right As Usual It Was My On/off pin it got snapped after pulling the valve out. Thanks Again

[MagNumPI]

Hey guys, My powertube tip had a crack in it and it let go.

When i was finger tightening it into the PT the tip snaped off.

Has anyone else incountered this problem or did i just get a bad one?


Any help would be great.

AGD: Call the factory for a replacement.

[Thrilliam]

I am having the same trouble. I can not even get through a game with out having to push my bolt back to get it running. I am using 1.5 carrier, the medium spring, and 3 shims. 4 shims and the gun leaks down the barrel. I have tried the longest spring with the same outcome of bolt stick. I can not trust the gun in a tournament as of right now. Need Help....
thanks

AGD: Try the shortest spring, if that doesnt work you might have to call us for an RA.

[Peanutt]

I know this sounds stupid but should i call the front office or tech support:rolleyes:

-edit- also which department should i go to from automated telephone menu. I am new at this

AGD: call tech support. they have their own phone # you can look it up on airgun.com I dont have it.

[Thrilliam]

I think I found yout my problem. It was not in the level 10 it was in the hyperframe that I was using... I am running a normal 45 frame and all my troubles went away. Thank you for the fast response AGD...:D

[dyerules]

Ever since i put the level 10 on my velocity has gone to hell. Its wierd, w/ the regular bolt it's like -5/+5 or so. I did the break in procedure, am using longest spring w/ 1.5 carrier and 1 shim. I have a han held chrono that i used. After seeing it fluctuate i thought it was the chrono. So i chronoed at the field on saturady, 265,260,285,270,255. It was kinda grose. I chronoed real low so not to asses any penalties. I was wondering if there's anthing i can do. I keep everything lubed well. Also if i put in a 1.0 carrier, that will slow down the bolt more, right??

AGD: If you use too small a carrier it will add too much friction to the system. This leads to variable velocity. Go with the largest carrier that doesnt leak.



dyerules: Thanks for the quick answer!!! But if i was to put in a larger carrier, wouldn't that increase the bolt force???

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I put in the LVL 10 worked fine, then yesterday a slight hiss would occur, so light I was not sure where it was coming from. I noticed when I put the trigger p against the pin it would go away and if I let the trigger hang lose it would not. Tried a few different carriers same problem.

Az

AGD: try tightening the field strip screw with a wrench. Your valve is slightly out of alignment.

[Mud]

I can seem to have shoot down rapid firing ion my emag. I tried tinkering with it and chronoing it like an RT in hybrid mode. (velocity e-mode 294 Hybrid 294, 207, 255 , 194)

I installed the level 10 using the #1.5 carrier (#2 carrier leaks) ,the medium and short sping.

please help:confused:

AGD: THis is not a level 10 problem , look at your tank and hoses.

[spyder3634]

ok, i just got lvl 10 today for my emag. i put it all together and try to go out and shoot it. it wont shoot at all. when i pull the trigger in any mode, it doesnt shoot. what am i doing wrong?

edit: it was the velocity, everything working great now!!!:D

[snowman]

Installed on my RT Pro, Zgrip, stock barrel and PMI Pure energy 3000, 47cu tank. For testing purposes I was using a coiled remote. Ended up with the small spring, two shims and 1-ring carrier.

- On this tank it significantly less efficient, I primarily play indoor leagues with speed at 260. Around 300 left in the tank, it just quits, I now have to fill after every game, where I could ususally last two games w/o filling.

- Been using 1 year cruddy paint to test w/o any breaks, have shot about 1000 rounds of RP Premium w/o any breaks yet.

- Problems that I have encountered are wierd. During my league play I have to get my tank filled every game. So then I would walk right to the chrono and get the speed going 215, 220's. I set it like that for a reason. I would then play the next game 10-15minutes after that. Then during the game, I'd put about 200 rounds through it, and when I would Chrono off it would be high 250's, low 260's. Comming on the field I would be at 220's, 230's. This would happen every game. I don't totally understand the physics behind cooling tanks and velocity, so I know there's a connection to be made, but I don't know where. I am not certain what to do. Any suggestions?

AGD: L10's don't really like to be shot at low velocity. Best bet is to get a really short barrel and reduce your velocity that way and still maintain pressure.

[SeigneurDeVoodoo]

Ok I put in about 800psi into the gun and setup my mag according to the instructions but my bolt won't move when I fire the gun. When I put in a loose carrier it leaks like the instructions said and when I hold down the trigger it stops....i've messed with the springs and made sure the carrier wasn't too tight...it just won't fire the bolt whats going on?!



-Voodoo

[Arturus]

No expert on this, but have you tried turning up the velocity?

I believe many have had to turn their velocity up, more so than normal, for the marker to fire with the lvl 10 kit.

[SeigneurDeVoodoo]

Well I took apart my gun and looked at what might have caused it...and well...let me just say that the only main spring that worked in my kit was the small one that came attached to the bolt...after I had my gun shooting at 280...the other two main springs wouldn't fire. I can't really say how I fixed my problem..but it wasn't velocity, I had it way up. After putting oil in it, made sure the carrier O-ring fit properly and tossed in two shims it started to barely more forward...I then cranked my velocity back up and it started shooting..but I think the bolt could be tuned to be slightly lighter on paint. What the problem may have been was just stupidity on my part and I had one of the grey main springs on in the first place.

[LittMag]

I'm using:
Classic Mag/ Classic body
CO2

Setup:
1.5 carrier 3 shims
SHORTEST (brass) spring

Problem:
Basically the gun would fire, then stop firing. Sometimes when it didn't fire, it would make the ball pinching sound then reset, sometimes the bolt would just not fire at all.
At the crono I was very inconsistent (but probably because of the cool temps and CO2) However when it warmed up during the day, I would crono around 310-320, turn it down, crono at 285 (the field limit). I would fire one or a string of a few, then the bolt wouldn't fire. During one game, the gun would just not fire.

I'm using the shortest spring, and I believe that the velocity issue was supposed to be solved by spring length... what should I do?!?

AGD: Go with the biggest carrier that doesn't leak. Try that.

***EDIT*** 7/26/02
1.5 carrier is the largest carrier that doesn't leak, carrier 2 and 2.5 leak. Any other suggestions? If I can't get it to work, would it be possible to send it into AGD for some work? (I would expect to pay for this)

[demonguy8]

sigh i finally get my lvl 10 in and i cant seem get it to work correctly...

alright im using an rtpro input pressure @950 (if that makes a difference)


Following the instructions on the site I started with the carrier with 2 grooves on it and no dots.. LEAKED HEAVILY from barrel.. (im talking a 100 psi/a sec).. assuming it was the described barrel leak i upped the velocity hoping it would stop. It actually seemed to get worse right up until the point wher air came out of the back of the gun..
now down to 2500 psi .. i figured it was the wrong carrier... same situation now 2200 psi... went to the 1.5 carrier which very snug on the back of the bolt and got same result yay 1800psi... convinced now that it wasnt the carrier but either the spring and/or shims i began to try diffferent combinations to no avail... i put back in the non lvl 10 componants just to make sure it was the kit and not my gun and my gun worked as normal...
*note i did the thing where you install the lvl10 with no shims and push on the bolt face while its leaking to hear if it changes tone.. and it didnt change at all

So basicaly facts are:
pretty sure I have the carrier picked right (the one wiht one solid line and no dots)

Heavy venting from barrel..... about 100 psi a sec..

No change in springs or increase in velocity made the leak stop or even slow (unless you count when the velocity went up enought to make it vent out back of gun instead of front

gun works fine with Non lvl 10 parts...

ANY SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT I COULD BE DOING WRONG OR WHAT THE PROBLEM IS WOULD BE GREATLY APRECIATED
thanks in advance

*P.S. I watched the video and did the install right,does the AGD tech dept take walk in appointments since I live not even 30 min away?

AGD: Good possibility your bolt pin is not pushed all the way in. There is a big problem, call the office and see if you can come in sometime next week. We can look at it.

[sonicnofadz]

Ummm...this is going to sound really weird but my superbolt doesn't even fit into the body. I have the regular longnose bolt for my micromag RT (yes its a micromag body) and a ANS venturi foami, they both fit fine. When I tried putting the superbolt in, you could visibly see the bolt not being able to fit inside the breach area inside the body (where the tube gets smaller to fit the bolt inside the breech). Upon inspecting the superbolt for any deformations I saw that the tip of the bolt appeared "rounded" and had a larger diameter than the rest of the bolt which has caused me to believe this is why it cannot fit inside the breech's inner diameter. Has anyone else ever seen this? I thought to myself that maybe the Micromag's bore size might have been different but then again the AGD longnose bolt fits like a glove...Im not sure what I should do, the bolt doesn't fit. Has anyone else see superbolts with the tips of them slightly swollen or rounded?


edit: ok I just took a piece of emory cloth and rounded off the front edge of the bolt...after I could finally put the bolt in properly the level 10 kit was pretty easy to install...had a few leaks at first but then I just changed the carrier to a tighter fit and it stopped. The level ten works like a dream. I have no problems with bolt stick. No problems with leaking. No problems with velocity. My micromag rt is officially my main gun now. I tried to break paint, used some non brand name crappy field paint...fanned the trigger, shot sideways, turnned the hopper off...shot a half case...not even a barrel break. I used the smallest bolt spring, (lengthwise) and the number 2 carrier(two stripes)

AGD: This happens occasionally when the washer inside the mainbody develops a burr. You need to take a round file and carefully file off the inside edge of the washer.

[squidboy69]

Ok, I'm still having a bit of problem with my LX.

If any of you recall, I had to find a shorter spring (shorter than the stock one actually). I ended up finding a spring that *just* reached the end of the LX bolt. The gun fires now, without venting out the AIR, however it seems to chop occasionally(sp?). I'm using 1.5 carrier, and I currently have 3 shims (trying to get it to vent sooner)... It'll still leave a good dent in a pencil. Seems it'll bounce two or three times, then *pow* it'll cycle all the way.

Any ideas? it's hard to show off this way :(

AGD: Squid give me all the details of your setup in a new post at the bottom so I see it.

[Havoc_online]

I don't know and didnt read about your old problem but the longer the spring, the more pressure on the bolt to slow it down(hence the softer on paint).

[squidboy69]

with the longer springs I was having to turn the velocity up so high it was venting out the back of the AIR

[Havoc_online]

have you tried to use a 2.0 carrier?if it does not leak with a 2.0 the bolt can slide easier so you would not have to turn up the velocity as high and you will be able to use a longer spring.(just an idea)

[emile518]

Using a Classic AIR P/F I ended up using 2 shims and the 1.0 carrier as the 1.5 I was using started to leak after about 1,000 - 1,500 shots. I had to replace the regulator piston because it was an old one from around 1994 and it would vent when the velocity was anywhere near 250 fps using any spring. The problem is even after I replaced the reg piston the velocity must be turned almost all the way up to reach 300 fps. I even replaced the regulator seat. There is little veloctiy adjustment available. I am using the longest spring which is extremely easy on the finger during testing and wish to keep this setup, I just hope my velocity can stay close enough to 300 fps without venting. If anyone could advise if using the 1.0 carrier instead of the looser 1.5 carrier would cause more friction and thus reduced velocity? If that is the case I could try to use the 1.5 carrier with a new O-Ring as maybe the old one leaked because it was damaged when I pulled the carrier out of the power tube during tuning.

[hitech]

Originally posted by squidboy69
Ok, I'm still having a bit of problem with my LX.


What does it chrono at?

[LittMag]

1.5 carrier is the largest carrier that doesn't leak, carrier 2 and 2.5 leak. Any other suggestions? If I can't get it to work, would it be possible to send it into AGD for some work? (I would expect to pay for this)

AGD: call the tech line.

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by Panzerr
I found that after putting two cases of paint through my new Level 10 kit that i developed a very slight leak in the power tube from time to time. I removed the o-ring carrier and installed the next smallest size and the leak stopped. Apparently the o-ring "broke in" and was a tiny bit too loose. Is this the appropriate action to take? I noticed today (after about 1 1/2 to 2 cases of paint with Level 10) that I would get a slight leak between shots occasionally. Sometimes shooting the marker would stop the leak, sometimes it wouldn't. I am currently using the 2.0 carrier. From what I read around here, the 1.5 carrier would be my next move?

Also, I am having horrendous efficiency. I shot 600 rounds in a game today and it ate entirely through 68*3000 of HPA.

AGD: If you are leaking only occasionally I would leave it alone because this means you have the least friction on the oring. Reports coming back seem to indicate that using the longest spring gets the worst effciency. Is that what your using?

ben_JD's response to AGD: I am using the middle spring. It leaks only occasionally, but I fear that the leak is what is really impacting my efficiency (roughly 280 fps). Before you posted this response, I added a shim (now up to two) and the leaking seemed to abate. Is this just coincidence, or might that be the answer?

I was using the middle spring, but that still hurt my pinky when I demonstrated the new Level 10 to the folks at the field, so I moved to the longest spring. I will move back to the middle spring, because I am having no problem with chopping. I may even move to the lightest spring, but don't want the bolt to have too much force.

AGD: You should not use your pinky when demoing the marker. Remember, the second half of the forward stroke is under full pressure and will hurt more. Use one of your FAT fingers :)

[Moats]

My emag in manual mode worked fine before level ten, but not the sear pin/rod will not come out after a couple shots. It will stick back and after a couple seconds you will hear air flow and it will come bakc out. How can i correct this? Is it velocity, preasure, ect...

Thanks

AGD: Add a shim or two

[Arturus]

Original setup - #1 carrier, 2 shims and longest spring. Constant 750-850 psi.

I went on to the field, and found out that I could not get it to shoot below 295-315 fps, no matter what I did. After 200-250 shots (along with the 150-200 dry shots) I gave up.

************************************************** *********

I went to the middle spring this time, hoping I could get a reliable FPS in the 270-280s range. I highered the velocity, until it began to shoot. I was getting 295-310 fps again. I kept lowering it, until I hit 275-280s... Was pretty excited about it. I went back to my car, and set it up with the Warp Feed, as I was initially only using a revvy to do the test. This took around 5 minutes... I went back to the chrono and found I could not shoot, unless I highered the velocity. Which left me shooting above 300 again.

************************************************** *********

I finally, with hesitation go to the smallest spring. Again, I start at a 300+ fps. I lower it enough so that I begin to shoot in the 270-275 fps. I go to the field and play 3 straight games, with absolutely no chops and have a great time.

Then on the 4rth game, after resting for about 5-10 minutes I return to the field. I pull the trigger and nothing, which to me indicated that I needed to higher the velocity again. Well, I try to pull the trigger 3-4 more times... then on the next pull the gun cycles and I can shoot, without adjusting/highering the velocity at all. I play for the next 2-3 hours without problem. Then again afte resting 5-10 minutes, I return to the field and run into the same problem... I pull the trigger without result 3 times, then on the 4rth pull I can shoot.

Is this because, in effect I'm pressurizing the valve each time I 'pull' on the trigger, enough to gas it up and have it cycle?

If this is the case, can I do this with the middle or longer spring and have it fully cycle? As in, each time the gun stops cycling I pull the trigger until it begins to shoot reliably; without adjusting the velocity whatsoever... ? Since adjusting the velocity would mean leaving the field and having to chrono.

From reading other threads, these seem to be my options so far:

- Dry fire hundreds of times with the middle and longest spring, and have them 'break in' while shooting hot... And hope I can fire reliably at 270-280s range.

- And/or change to a #1.5 carrier, from the current #1 and hope it allows me to shoot with the longest/middle spring.

Would appreciate any corrections on my assumptions and any other advice on how to get my marker cycling/shooting reliably at 270-280 fps with the middle/longest spring.

No chops with the shortest spring, but would like the added insurance of having the longer springs.

AGD: Its acting exactly like it should with too tight a carrier. Go to the biggest carrier that does not leak and it will solve your problem.

[squidboy69]

with the excessively short spring it chronos at 250+/- with the shortest spring in the kit, it would chrono at 276 every single time, no variation, but it would vent out the back when I got the velocity high enough to cycle the gun.

AGD: You need to buy an new reg piston yours is old school.

[alf]

I just got my level 10 bolt in today...YAY!!!

but, i dont think i got a backing washer, and i did not get a 2.0 carrier...i DID get 2 3.5 carriers....

is the backing washer still needed? (i think, yes)

well, just wanted AGD to know that at least one kit went out incorrectly...im not complainin, this stuff happens...and the reason that im not complainin is because of the people like Marcia and Joann that Tom has working for him will make my life easy.

I'll get in touch with Marcia tomorrow...shes cool

-alf

[riooso]

Classic with an RT valve and a benchmark trigger frame with a flatline running about 850 p.s.i.. 2 shims, medium spring, 1.5 carrier (a 2 leaks) Shot about a half case of paint through it. I have a bit of a different problem than any post that I have read about here. As long as my tank is filled to above 1500 it seems like it shoots ok but below that I get really bad dropoff. If I single shoot seems ok. Is it suppose to be that way? I am also seeing some really wide crono speeds that I did not have with the standard bolt. The field that I play at wants 285 fps is that a problem?

AGD: switch air systems with someone to see if thats the problem. Does not sound like a lvl10 issue.


I did that and found no difference. I solved problem by going to small spring.
I would like to make it softer but it is pretty good now and I can shoot Hellfire paint, which is really brittle stuff (0 bounce)! Thanks!

[Cobrachs]

My problem is similar to AzrealDarkmoonZ, a slight leak that goes away when I put pressure on the trigger. I tried tightening the field strip screw and it got even worse, so I loosened the screw and it would stop then I would shoot and sometimes it would start hissing again and I would turn the srew a little and it would go away. Do I have to find just the right spot for the screw or is there another problem?

AGD: go half size smaller on the carrier.

[legion]

Kinda a problem, kinda not, more of a question of operation on the L10.

When my bolt stops on a ball, i have to pull the trigger again to reset it... is this normal operation?

Legion

AGD: yes its working perfectly

Legion: Coo, thanks!

[lillfroboy]

Hey the do you guys knoiw the little black things that were on the front of the new bolt mine is gone how do you replace it

BlackVCG: That's the foamie. Your LVL 10 kit should have come with an extra one. Use a good epoxy and glue it back into the bolt

[Angel_Freak069]

OK like i have a emag, warp with 12 X revy.... anyways when i start shootin like i will get a ball caught half way in all the hopper Warp and revy are workin and i only have about 1900 psi in my flatline and its about 90 degrees outside whats goin on with my gun!!!!???!!!!!!!!

BlackVCG: If I deciphered your post correctly, you need to add one or two shims.

[Havoc_online]

does the bolt stay stuck on the ball or does it rengage?

[CenterFire]

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to get any of the carriers to fit all the way into the power tube tip... I'm gonna go back and keep trying (I've oiled the carrier o-rings too).

Thanks,
CenterFire

EDIT- Got the carrier in finally, but now I need an easily found tool to get it out... just as hard as getting it in *sigh*

BlackVCG: Use a Bic pen to press the carrier in and get a dental pick to pull out the carrier. You can get them at hardware stores.

[Arturus]

CenterFire -

I had the same problem, getting it in and out.

Try using the tip of a plastic pen. One that'll obviously fit into the carrier. Press it it until it feels 'stuck' - you'll have to put a good amount of pressure on to it. Then pull it out.

It takes a little practice, but once done right.. Well, I have no problems taking Carriers out now.

:)

[lillfroboy]

i had the same prob i used the quick strip bolt on the bottom back of the gun the holds the valve assembly on it fits perfectly but still does any of you know if those black things are important in my new LX kit (the ones on the new Super Bolt)

[halo13]

Ok, here's my problem. I tried to install the lvl 10 kit on my emag but I'm getting some weird venting problems. The first time I installed it i used the 2.5 carrier. When I gassed up my gun (750psi input) I satrted to get a gass leak down the barrel, and it didn't make the normal "click" cocking sound. When I tried to shoot the gun it just made a louder-than-usual clicking sound in e-mode. I turned off the air and went down to the next smallest carrier. The air venting noise became quieter but there was still no cocking and the trigger problem is still there. Eventually I went down the the 1.5, 1 carrier. I still have the air leaking problem, the gun doesn't seem to cock, and there is pressure behind the trigger (in manual) even after I turned off my air. I have tried a variety of different spring combos but I haven't screwed with the shims yet, I've consistantly been using 2.

p.s. I'm going to try the #.5 carrier next but I'm waiting for the pressure in my line to do down so I can actually remove it from my gun. Hopefully I can remove it in the next hour. does anybody have a clue as to what my problem could be caused by?

[edit]
Ok, I have successfully installed the level 10 mod. It seems that I really had to crank the velocity. I think I did about 6-8 360 degree turns (which seems really abnormal to me, is it supposed to go up that far?). I tried it out on my squeege and it seemed to work correcty. I just need to get my hands on a chronograph to check the speed. I'm about 92% sure that the lvl 10 stuff is working the way its supposed to, but I don't think i'll be sticking my tounge in my gun any time soon.

Here's another question. I'm currently using the medium length spring. Do the different springs affect velocity at all?

BlackVCG: Get a quick disconnect to bleed the pressure from your system. Yes, you need to crank on the velocity to get it working. The springs will affect the velocity the gun will operate at. The longest spring will let the gun work in the 280-300fps range, middle about 20fps lower and the shortest spring for indoor speeds i.e. 240fps.

[hitech]

Originally posted by halo13
Do the different springs affect velocity at all?

Not exactly. They provide "back" pressure against the bolt. They affect the minimum velocity the marker will shoot at. The longer the spring, the higher the minimum velocity the marker requires to fire. You want the marker to start firing about 20 fps BELOW what you want your velocity to be.

[halo13]

hmm, ok. I think I'll stick on the shortest spring and see what happens. Damn, i need to get my hands on a chrono.

[cledford]

This may sound dumb - but I was following the level 10 instrutions and got to where it tells you to install the valve assy with old bolt spring into the body. It will not fit into my emag body :) the Valve assy (with new bolt) seats just fine in an automag/warp body, but not the emag. I even took the emag body off the rail. Any suggestions?

-Calvin

AGD: Your main body washer has raised a burr from repeated use. Just go in there with a round file and work it off.

[cledford]

AGD,

Sorry - didn't see you edit - or I wouldn't have posted the second thread. A couple of other posters said the same.

Thanks,

See you Sunday ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by halo13
hmm, ok. I think I'll stick on the shortest spring and see what happens.

Remember, you can use the stock level 7 spring. This spring is shorter than the three supplied with the lvl 10 kit.


Originally posted by halo13
Damn, i need to get my hands on a chrono.

Man, do I feel your pain (haven't chrono'ed mine either). :(

[WicKeD_WaYz]

alright heres my problem...i put the mod in exactly how the instructions said to. now it comes time to shoot it, every spring i use even with my velocity turned up to the point where it wont turn in anymore it wont shoot. the trigger just simply moves. every now and then i would hear a lil gas come out. when i tried it i was at about 1000 psi. now im at about 500 and i wont be able to refill untill this afternoon. the only spring i havnt used is the old one because im starting to think the problem is more thsn just the spring. thanks in advance

BlackVCG: Most likely your tank output pressure is too low. Is it a preset? Get your tank filled and check the output pressure and as long as it's up around 800-900psi, then it should cycle fine. Also, make sure your carrier isn't too tight.

[lillfroboy]

it vents... it vents..... it vents.... i have tried everything more shims differnet carriers more shime di=ffenent carriers and less shims diffent springs with different carriers turn the vrlocity all the way up and it still doent work and if i get it to work it only fires about 10 times and stops

BlackVCG: You might have a bad bolt. If you have a friend that has lvl 10, then try out his bolt and see if your setup works. If your bolt is bad, call up AGD and get a new one.

[Load SM5]

I took my lvl 10 SFL out on the field and everything was going pretty well at the beginning. I'm running 1.5 carrier with 2 shims and the shotest spring in the kit. I would run the medium cut spring but it leaks out the back at around 230 FPS. I have a new regulator piston on order so hopefully that will help. Without going into a great amount of detail I went through every kind of E-mag related valve problem imaginable, bolt-stick, full auto and finally air gushing out of the back. Finally as I was about to stab myself, Matt Davis of Jax Warriors showes up. Between the 2 of us, and a repair kit we managed to get it shooting 290 without leaking. At this point the bolt is still hitting pretty hard. I can stop it with my finger if I brace for it but if I'm not ready it will pinch you finger pretty good between the bolt and barrel. But at this point, I'll take it because I can finally play. I go out and play my first game. After about 4 minutes I start hearing a hiss down the barrel. It starts to get much worse as the game goes on. finally by the time the last guy is gone my SFL has air rushing down the barrel and my tank is almost out. I flick off the tank and go break down my mag again. This time the back half of the bolt piston has shot off and gone down inside my valve. I break down the valve and fish it out. I take some blue loctite push it back in the bolt as far as it will go and pack up and go home. Hopefully the loctite will hold the bolt together and the new regulator piston will allow me to use a longer spring and soften the bolt a bit more. Right now if I were to stick my tongue in there I would lose it.

[Arturus]

Originally posted by WicKeD_WaYz
alright heres my problem...i put the mod in exactly how the instructions said to. now it comes time to shoot it, every spring i use even with my velocity turned up to the point where it wont turn in anymore it wont shoot. the trigger just simply moves. every now and then i would hear a lil gas come out. when i tried it i was at about 1000 psi. now im at about 500 and i wont be able to refill untill this afternoon. the only spring i havnt used is the old one because im starting to think the problem is more thsn just the spring. thanks in advance

Try the next larger carrier that won't leak down the barrel. If you're using the longest spring, try the middle one. If that doesn't work, go down to the shortest spring.

Once you change your setup, it'll probably leak out back since I'm your velocity is set pretty high at the moment. All you'll have to do is lower the velocity then, until it shoots reliably and it stops leaking.

Make sure you've put a bit of oil on the Carrier Orings as well. Just dab it on with your finger.

That should fix it.

[Arturus]

Originally posted by lillfroboy
it vents... it vents..... it vents.... i have tried everything more shims differnet carriers more shime di=ffenent carriers and less shims diffent springs with different carriers turn the vrlocity all the way up and it still doent work and if i get it to work it only fires about 10 times and stops

Start all over.

1.5 Carrier, 2 shims, and the middle spring. Make sure you dab a bit of oil on to the Orings on the carrier.

Once you gas it up, higher the velocity until it shoots. If it starts leaking down the barrel, go with the next size smaller carrier.

If it's leaking out the back, lower the velocity until it stops. Even after lowering it, if it keeps leaking out the back, pull the trigger once. If it stops then and starts up again, degass your marker and tank completely. Without changing the setup, gas it up again.

From there, try the chrono. Higher or lower the velocity and try to get your preferred FPS. If it's constantly shooting hot, go to the next size smaller spring.

Make sure you 'break-in' the orings by shooting several hundred dry shots. Once you get it working reliably with a specific set of carrier and spring size, you can then start 'tweaking' it to your liking.

I probably just confused you even more, but try and follow the steps mentioned. First field day last week, it was working reliably with the shortest spring. I messed with it today, and it would constantly vent/leak, regardless of the spring and carrier size. I started from scratch and eventually got it to work with the middle spring - I can now leave my finger by the bolt and pull continuously without a worry at all.

[Jason Reed]

I have l-x installed, 1.5 carrier, 2 shims, longest spring. I have noticed that the valve is not getting reactive, instead it hesitates before it resets, sometimes i have pull the trigger another time for it to reset. i want my reactiveness back and still want to use l-x. can ya'll help.

[robert heatwole]

i turned up my velocity all the way and it still wont fire HELP

BlackVCG: Explain your setup. I can't do anything for you unless you explain which parts you're using.

[paint king]

Okay when i put a ball and the breach and try to chop it the ball doesnt chop (VERY HAPPY). But on the videos it shows tom pulling the trigger fast on the ball. When i try to chop a ball for testing it seems to vent a LOT more air then in the videos. How can I fix this? Thanks.

By the way im using the 1.5 carrier with 2 shims and my original spring because i have to have the volicity lower for indoor play.

[hitech]

Originally posted by paint king
But on the videos it shows tom pulling the trigger fast on the ball. When i try to chop a ball for testing it seems to vent a LOT more air then in the videos. How can I fix this? Thanks.

It sounds like it is not venting soon enough (maybe). Try adding shims, one a a time, until it starts leaking. Then remove one shim. That will get it to vent as earily as possible.

[paint king]

I will go try that. Thanks for the advice.

[robert heatwole]

my bolt will go just 1 cm. and then the bolt sticks
:( HELP:confused:

[paint king]

I tried that and it vents fine now. But now i have another problem...sigh.... Okay well i can shoot the can without with the original main spring now. But when i try to get the gun to shoot with the middle and the long springs it doesnt shoot. I turn the volocity all the way up and and doesnt vent out the back either. Thats just my first problem though my other problem is that it leaks when i air up but when i pull the trigger it stops. Could someone answer these questions for me. Thanks.

P.S. It just started leaking i have tried to get it to fire with the middle and long springs when it wasnt leaking.

BlackVCG: What's your output pressure? If it's not high enough, it's not going to operate with the larger springs. Also, if the carrier is too tight, then that might be adding too much friction and the air chamber pressure can't build high enough to overcome the force of the longer main spring and o-ring friction.

Paintking: I have no way of checking my output pressure. I cant get nitro filled around here so whatever my co2 is pushing out which im not sure what it is. I have tinkered with it and I think my problem might be that i dont enough air left in all of my tanks because when i put a 1.5 carrier in there even with my original spring the bolt only moves a couple centimeters(I also tried with 2 carrier, 2.5 leaks.) If it is my tank then i think I have the ride combo because before it started only going a centimeter or 2 it was stopping on paint great. I will resume testing when i get the tanks filled.

[Arturus]

Originally posted by robert heatwole
i turned up my velocity all the way and it still wont fire HELP

Try reading through the other posts on this thread...

Since we're at it, try a shorter spring. If that alone doesn't work, then use a carrier one size larger.

[robert heatwole]

found the problam didnt have enough pressure in my tank

[paint king]

Okay guys i got the gun to fire at a decent volocity without leaking with 1 carrier 2 shims and middle spring. But it chops still. I dont know what to do. Any advice would be great. Thanks.

[Peanutt]

AGD: call us for a replacement bolt
Hey Tom, I shipped my bolt about 3 weeks ago and I havent got it yet. I was wondering if they are backed up with other lvl 10 orders and if I should give them a call??

[paint king]

Well i have been at work constantly on my level ten and it still chops. I can use any carrier from 2 to 0 and it doesnt leak. I can use up to 4 shims without it leaking. I can use the middle spring also. I have tried every combo and it still chops. What am I doing wrong? I would really appreciate some help. Thanks. By the way I have also noticed that the valve is not reseting fast enough instead it hesitates before it resets, sometimes i have pull the trigger another time for it to reset. Thanks.

[SIGSays]

BlackVCG edit: Grow up. You're not worthy of being a beta tester. That was part of the deal in buying LVL 10 right now and a post like yours is a complete waste of forum space. Post something like that again and you're banned for good.

[Peanutt]

i'll take your bolt if u dont want ur lvl ten SIGsays

[lillfroboy]

Hey what happens if i dont have the backing washer

[paint king]

SIGSays if you are talking to me then just calm down. I was just asking questions so i could get my level ten going. In your eyes i guess im not worthy of being a beta tester but im just trying to work out the bugs with it so it works. Isnt that the point of having it beta tested? So that if some people cant get it installed you can find out whats wrong with the product (There isnt but if there was) or the troubles people are having installing it so that when it does go into full production people dont have a hard time getting it to work. Sorry if this post upsets you but thats how I see it.

[hitech]

Add shims to get it to vent eariler. Go back and read your old post, BlackVCG added comments to it via an edit. :D

[Moats]

lilfroboy

look for a white one. My backing washer was white.

[BlackVCG]

Paint King: Sorry for the confusion. I edited SigSays' post because it was full of foul language and completely bashing LVL 10 because he was too stupid to figure out how to get it to work. The comments in his post are mine and I reedited it so it should be more clear as to those being my words and not his.

lilfroboy- The setup will work without the backing washer, but you risk popping out the white carrier o-ring into the air chamber while you're shooting. Get the backing washer so it pop out and leak like a sive while you're on the field playing.

[Moats]

Originally posted by Jason Reed
I have l-x installed, 1.5 carrier, 2 shims, longest spring. I have noticed that the valve is not getting reactive, instead it hesitates before it resets, sometimes i have pull the trigger another time for it to reset. i want my reactiveness back and still want to use l-x. can ya'll help.

I am having the exact same problem, can someone help us out.

[paint king]

Okay sorry about th emix up. My fault.

[Jason Reed]

Hey ya'll give me and moats some help. you have helped evryone else out but us. come on it is frustrating not being able to have your gun work at 100%. please help.

[lillfroboy]

is it the bolt sticking or what we need exact details

[Moats]

It is the sear and pin not coming back out, so the gun can not shoot.

[Snewk]

I got level 10 installed, Automag Classic. Used 1.5 carrier, long spring, 2 shims it works...but. When I short stroke on purpose it doesnt fire, but when I shoot it properly after short stroking and it vents, two balls shoot out.

BlackVCG: Sounds like your gun is on the threshold of working/not working. Try turning up the velocity a bit or going one size larger on the carrier. Also, stick your finger in up close to the bolt and hold it there. If it hits your finger and doesn't vent, then add shims until it does.

I can stick a barrel cleaner in the breech and it vents properly, just after that it shoots out two balls.

BlackVCG: Replace your nubbins with new ones. If you're using metal nubbins, get the plastic ones.

10-4 good buddy.

[lillfroboy]

take it apart and make sure its in correctly or you can call agd for more info

[jerminator]

i am using mm11859 the number 2 carrier 2 shims and the shortest spring it works great but if i turn up my velocity anymore it vents out the back im not sure if i should replace my reg piston or try changing the pieces i use in the level ten
i am also using a pure energy 4500psi 68cu tank any help would be greatly appreciated

BlackVCG: You need a new reg. piston. If you're going to be at the Ballahpalooza tournament at the Washington County Fairgrounds, I'll be there and can help you out.


where is that exactly and when ????
and would it be wise to change my spring back to

[lillfroboy]

Moats, What I Think It Is, Is The Bolt Sticking So The Gun Can't Cock If The Bolt Isn't In Firing Posintion ( Just Assuming):)

[emile518]

I have an older mag built around 1993 and when I installed the Level 10 upgrade I had the same problem. After replacing the REG PISTON and SPRING PACK I could turn the velocity all the way up to like 375(just for testing) using the middle spring. This will allow you to use any spring, even the longest without venting. :)

[Jason Reed]

i am having snews problem also.

[Restola]

Here is a problem I had that seemed perplexing, but was amazingly easy to fix.

I installed level 10, everything seemed to be working fine. But if I didn't shoot for 10-15 seconds the first shot would just "pffft" and half-shoot. I figured it was leaking, but I listened VERY hard and nothing, I shifted around the barrel, nothing. Finally I just put the next smaller carrier in (1.5) even though it seemed too tight. Worked PERFECTLY all day for 2000 rds.

[PsychoMag]

I have rebuilt my Emag several times with the LX upgrade. I have it set very sweet as I am told, pretty gentle on the finger etc...

My problem is when I go to manual mode, the gun doesnt fire. It wants to, but just doesnt. Seems like the pull isnt long enough to release the bolt, yet in Emode it is the sweetest thing on the market.

What do I do?

BlackVCG: Are you using one of Timmy's blade triggers? If so, that's your problem and the only way to fix it is put back the stock double trigger. If you're using the stock trigger, then make sure that the trigger rod is 2.125".

PsychoMag: I hav the stock trigger on it since I believe in 100%genuine AGD parts, but I will check the measurement of the rod length tomorrow. Thanks for the response

[Bartleby]

I'm sorry to say i am in a bit of a bind. I don't have time to read all the posts on this thread looking for my specific problem, but i type real fast so i figure just post it and run. Here's the scoop:

I have a small leak out the back. It was not there before i installed level 10, and did not begin to leak untill i increased the velocity to bring the fps to 250. At this setting, i get a very slight leak out the back of the valve, when i turn the velocity down, the leak stops untill i fire a few times at whcih point the leak starts up again. I'm not sure if this is actually from level 10 or just from an o-ring in the original valve. by the way, the valve is just a normal 68 Automag valve. Everything is original with the exception of level 10.

Thanks for your help. And once again, i'm sorry if someone has already presented this problem.

BlackVCG: You need a new piston. It's venting out the back due to the increased pressure needed to operate the gun with LVL 10.

[Skweegi]

First off thanks for being about the only manufacturer to be this aggressive in communicating with and helping their customers. That is sorely appreciated.

I have a Centerfeed RT Pro with a Centerflag Hyperframe. I installed the L10 no problem following the directions. My problem is that the bolt is tearing through the anodizing on the inside of my barrels.

I closely inspected the bolt and did not see any obvious protrusions, burrs, etc. The barrel in the picture is a Smart Parts All-American Teardrop .690 so I know its not the smallest internal diameter barrel around. I am scared to think what would happen with a .686 barrel.

The picture is the least blurry i can seem to muster with the cheap crackerjack camera I got. You can see the silver streak though, it has never developed anything of this nature using regular bolts.

Please advise. Thanks

Matt Falbe
NE Hurricanes
AKA Fish
AKA Skweegi

AGD: switch to your stock barrel and see if the problem persists. Also make sure you put the cut end of the mainspring toward the back of the bolt.

[ogre55]

Please help.

I shoot an RT Classic

I just installed, or tried to install, level 10. No matter what I do the gun leaks both through the barrell and out the back. I tried everything I know how. Changed the velocity. Installed 2 shims, one shim, no shims. Tried all the various carriers.

Still no luck.

Then, out of frustration, I installed my level 7 parts back and it worked like a charm. Chopped one ball all day and that was when I showed off to a friend how fast the gun can shoot. (He was complaining that someone was shooting FA because of how fast they were shooting and I had to show him just how fast one can shoot a semi.)

Thanks in advance.

Ogre
AGD: you need a new reg piston we have them in the store.

[Potatoboy]

A bit of an update.

After finally having access to my tank again I gassed up the classic with the medium spring, and the proper carrier for the bolt.

It fired!
I don't have a chrono, but it looks like less than 280 just by the trajectory of the ball.

Screwing the velocity nut in anymore causes the pressure relief to vent.

[spyder3634]

ok, maybe this has been answered by someone, if it has then it should be an easy fix.

i have LX in my emag, it worked fine for a while, but now it just shoots like a regular emag. today my friend who doesnt even play chopped one with it. basically, i have all the LX internals in but it still shoots like it used to before i got LX. any help would be great. thanks

AGD: we cant help you unless you give us all the specifics of what exactly is installed in your gun.

Spyder3634: ok, i have 1.5 carrier, 2 shims, any spring it does the same thing, i think thats all you need. i have to go work right now but if you need for more info i will post later.

[RILEY]

I have a mag with a powerfeed body, retro valve , and a hyperframe and i resently put in my level 10 and installed as the directions from online told me to do.Then when i tried all the springs it came with and the gun wouldnt fire with any of them. So i put my original spring back on and the gun and it finally fired but the problem i have is that when i shoot it and then stop shooting usually the bolt will stick but the bolt never sticks when i am shooting rapidly and i always oil it before i play so if anyone has any ideas for me i am open to suggestions.
thxs alot joe

BlackVCG: Are you turning up the velocity to get it to work with the longer springs? You have to turn it up about 2 full turns to get it to work with the longest spring.

[ogre55]

In an earlier post Tom suggested that for those us us running a lvl 10 with a hardline, rather than a screw in tank, we should use a degassing fitting to degass the gun as it is impossible to shoot it down due to the "cork effect" of the lvl 10.

I have scoured the net for degassing fitting but to no avail. Can anyone suggest a brand/supplier. I checked the online store and have not found any.

Ogre

[krafty]

Ogre,

put a slide-check in-line downstream of your reg.

[sinman02]

I had my level 10 installed by a "professional" at a pro shop on my automag RT. After the install I could not get the gun to fire above 250 on the chrono. When I tried to increase the velocity, the gun started to vent out the back. I took the gun apart myself and examined the carrier and found that the fit was a bit too snug so I replaced it with the next larger one. I have the "middle" spring just slightly longer than the stock and the air pressure was at around 800-850 psi. I also have 2 shims with no apparent leaks from the barrel. I couldn't chrono it at that point since I don't have a personal chrono, but could the reason the gun chrono'ed so low be because the carrier ring was too tight? Does the length of the spring have an effect on ball velocity? Will going with a shorter spring make the velocity higher?

BlackVCG: Shorter springs will allow the gun to start shooting at a lower velocity, but the bolt force is greater. If you plan on shooting 280-300fps use one of the gray springs because they'll start shooting just before that velocity range and be the most gentle on paint.

If the carrier o-ring is too tight, it will require excess pressure in the valve to get the bolt moving. This might make the gun vent too soon. If you get to the point that the next size up carrier from what you're using makes it leak and you still can't get the velocity you want, get a new piston because it will be set for a higher blow-off pressure.

[Duke Henry]

Probably has, I likely missed it.

Anyway, I picked up a Level 10 kit and have tried to install it in my new RT PRO.

I am using the 1.0 carrier, longest spring, and two shims. Anyway, I air it up (750 PSI) and there are no leaks, which is a GOOD thing. However, when I pull the trigger nothing happens.

The piston for the RT is strong, it comes right back and pushes the trigger back for me, but nothing happens when I shoot. I was shooting 270 FPS, and so I imagine my velocity is quite weak now with the long bolt. Should I just crank up my velocity? Thanks

[Havoc_online]

you need more air to the gun at least 800 but 850 is better. yes you will have to turn up the velocity but you still need more air.

[Duke Henry]

O.K., I cranked up my output pressure to around 850-875 PSI. Gun still airs up, with no leaks but pulling the trigger does nothing either.

I turned the velocity screw to up the velocity quite a bit, but without me being able to cycle it (and therefore chrony it) I have no idea what it is shooting at. I did turn it up HIGH though, almost a complete half turn.

Any other ideas?

[Havoc_online]

it will take way more than a half a turn, keep going. it should be close to the point where it bleeds out the back.

[Duke Henry]

Alright, I cranked the velocity up QUITE A BIT, about 3 full turns but I noticed no change. Problem is, that I noticed that my tank is not outputting more than 800 PSI anymore, since my tank is too low.

So, I will get a refill Tuesday and try again. Thanks

[BajaBoy]

sounds like your carrier is to tight

[lillfroboy]

yep sounds like your carrier is to tight, i got the same problem, so and i have just given up on trying to put the lvl 10 on my gun, i even wrote all the combonations that i have tried on paper and have done each at least 10 times (literally)it has pissed me off so much, but any way i had the same prob, i get it to stop venting out the barrel, but i crank up the velocity till i can't screw it any more and it doesnt work, so i got to the next smaller carrier and it vents out the back so i turn the velocity down till it stops venting out the back and then it vents down the barrel, i turn the velocity up till it stops completly and it doesnt fire so i turn it up just a tiny tiny bit and i can here the bolt trying to move so i oil it and it will shot maybe about 5 shots then leak down the barrel, and by this time im so pissed off i want to throw my mag away so i quit that day, man the first day i got it i was working on it for 24 hours strait (i ate 3 times) so i have given up on the "Incredible LvL 10" and Envy the peoples who "incredible LvL 10" works on their guns

[Duke Henry]

I made some progress today - sort of. I got a fill, and proceeded to go back to the beginning and just get the carrier in and air the gun up with the stock spring.

No shims in at all. Slapped the stuff in there, and actually got it shooting, but after about 10 shots it started pouring out of the barrel. Tried a few other things but again I ran out of air.

I will probably not be able to get another fill until the weekend, so I will a person who has already slapped in a LX to help me while I continue the process.

Man, I need to get me a SCUBA tank...

[Edit: I rechecked my carrier, and I truly do think it is the best one. I also was able to get the air to blow out of the back of the gun, so I am confident I can figure this out...with a bit of time!]

[Havoc_online]

if it leaks down the barrel, the carrier may be too big, the object is to use the biggest one that doesnt leak(by the time you break in the o'ring, you may have to goto one size smaller).

As far as shims, some ppl have none but if your bolt sticks on a ball and can't bleed the pressure, you know what to do(2 shims usually works best)

Getting the air to blow out the back of the gun isnt really a good thing, just set your velocity low enough so that it doesnt leak air out but high enough that it fires reliably(till you get a chance to chrono)

[Duke Henry]

For sure, I will change carriers if I continue to get a leak down the barrel. However, I have a feeling I am getting the leak since my tank is low.

Until I had my velocity up high enough to "overflow", pulling the trigger did nothing. Now, it actually does. This I like...

When I have a large supply of air (i.e. SCUBA this weekend) I will be able to get this thing hammered out.

Thanks again everyone for your help.

[tylerdurden1803]

Just installed my Level 10 and I've gotta problem. I've got the middle spring in with two shims in and the carrier with 3 rings, NO dots. When I turn the air on (Maxflow), it will leak(not alot, not a little) then when I pull the trigger it shoots but then it starts leaking ALOT. Any suggestions? Thanks for any replies.

BlackVCG: Using the same white carrier o-ring put it in the 2.5 spacer (Two rings and three dots) and try that. Put the o-ring on the carrier and slide it onto the bolt stem to get a feel for the fit of the o-ring on the stem. It should be fairly snug. If it leaks no matter what carrier you use, remove shims until it stops leaking.

[Doobie]

Keep going down in size with the carriers until it does not leak. It sounds like you are using a big carrier and the air is venting around the bolt stem.

[sliknik]

Hello,
It's been a while since I've posted, but I just recently recieved my level ten. I first installed it with 2.0 carrier, 2 shims and long spring. It leaked bad. So I put in the 1.5 carrier and it didn't leak, but it wouldn't shoot either. I decided maybe it was the spring, so I went down to the medium spring and it leaked down the barrel, and still wouldn't shoot. I will keep trying different combos but I just thought that maybe someone has had the same problem, can offer advice and save me some time and air. Thanx

BlackVCG: Are you turning up the velocity to get it to shoot with the longer springs? You have to turn it up at least one to two full turns to get it working with the long gray springs.

[Gijim]

I can't seem to fire the mag when the barrel is on but if I take off the barrel the mag fires fine. I tried different springs but that hasn't helped then I checked to see if the bolt is too tight in the barrel but it fits fine outside of the gun. I'm stumped why the bolt seems to get stuck on the barrel. Need some serious help, thanks. Setup is old valve in a minimag with 1.0 carrier and currently long spring.

[sliknik]

Well I got it working, thanks blackVCG. Kind of weird though I am having the exact same problem as Gijim. It shoots great with the barrel off. When the barrel is on though, it seems as if the barrel is in the way of the bolt. What should I do???

Oh by the way I am using the 1.0 carrier, 2 shims, and the long spring.

BlackVCG: What kind of barrel are you using? I've seen this problem happen with a 32 Degrees Carbon Fiber barrel. It can happen with any barrel if it's drilled off center.

[tylerdurden1803]

Originally posted by tylerdurden1803
Just installed my Level 10 and I've gotta problem. I've got the middle spring in with two shims in and the carrier with 3 rings, NO dots. When I turn the air on (Maxflow), it will leak(not alot, not a little) then when I pull the trigger it shoots but then it starts leaking ALOT. Any suggestions? Thanks for any replies.

BlackVCG: Using the same white carrier o-ring put it in the 2.5 spacer (Two rings and three dots) and try that. Put the o-ring on the carrier and slide it onto the bolt stem to get a feel for the fit of the o-ring on the stem. It should be fairly snug. If it leaks no matter what carrier you use, remove shims until it stops leaking.

I did as you said and now its leakin out the back. It was leakin from the front a little too. Take shims out? Change carrier? I took out one shim already so theres only one in there. Thanks for any replies.

BlackVCG: Okay, so you went to the 2.5 carrier right? If it started leaking out the back then turn it down to the point that it stops leaking and check the velocity. Be sure to fire it a few times while you're turning down the velocity. If you can't get the velocity you want and it's not leaking down the barrel, then get a new piston and it will be fine.

[grEnAlEins]

ok, i posted this on tech, but i doin it here to. there is metal in my power tube, it looks like a washer, but i cant get it out. it is about 1/2 inch down the tube. it is not the spacer, or spring, i took those out. is this thing suposed to stay in?

BlackVCG: Yes, that's a washer that is part of the PT and is suppose to be in there to keep the o-ring from being shoved all the way down in. With LVL 10 it keeps the white washer from dropping down into the air chamber.

[Magaholic]

Hello all,

I've been running Lvl 10 in my 'mag for about a month now. I've put somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 cases through it in that time, playing woodsball. I've scanned most of this thread and I didn't see anyone else having the same issue as I seem to be encounterring.

Setup: 68 classic with standard valve. 2.0 carrier, middle spring, 3 shims. 'Mag is running on HPA and shooting around 280 FPS with this configuration. I'm running a J&J ceramic for larger bore paints (mine seems to have about the same bore size as a crown point barrel) and a Lapco Autospirit or Bigshot for smaller bore paints. As for oiling the valve, I put in 5-6 drops before every day of play.

Problem: During my initial setup of lvl 10, I installed the 1.5 carrier, middle spring and 2 shims. This seemed to work fine...for a bit...At some point, I started shooting small bore paint thru the J&J. Actually, it was mixed bore paint...some small, some medium. Occassionally, the marker would act as though it had pinched a ball, giving the 'pfffttt' sound and resting. After it reset, however, I could not get the thing to actually fire...It would just vent and reset. Pulling the barrel off revealed it had actually pushed 2 balls into the barrel. After clearing the barrel of balls, most times, I could get the marker to fire again but sometimes it would just vent/reset, even when there wasn't an extra ball in the barrel. So I'm thinking to myself, "Ok, I guess we'll just make sure we have proper barrel/paint match at all times." As it turns out, I still have this problem intermittently, even when running with a decent barrel/paint match. It seems to happen later in the day, after about 1/2 case of shooting, rather than early in the morning/at start of play.

Things I've tried: Since it would still vent/reset at inappropriate times, I tried to tune in my lvl 10 a little better. I first switched to the shortest spring. This seemed to work at first, but later in the day, I had the same problem. The next thing I tried was adding a shim since I had read that adding shims causes the bolt to vent earlier on in the cycle. I figured that might cause the bolt to vent and not push 2 balls into the barrel. This didn't seem to help with the middle or the short springs. Just recently, I moved to the 2.0 carrier from the 1.5 carrier. The 2.0 doesn't leak, so I figured I'd have reduced friction, making things run a little smoother. I haven't tried the 2.0 carrier with the short spring but when used with the middle spring, I made it thru most of the day yesterday without any problems...I did, however, loan my 'mag out to a friend at the end of the day and it started acting up again. This time it was with an Autospirit barrel running Blaze paint. This leads me to believe that it is not a problem with a specific barrel, i.e. the J&J. I've also read that some people are having problems getting their 'mags to fire at the chrono due to loose barrels. When I was cleaning my 'mag after yesterday's outing, I did tighten the twist lock assembly slightly. My barrels fit slightly more tightly now. I didn't, however, consider the play they had before to be excessive. I have not had a chance to play since I screwed in the twist lock, so I'm not sure if that solved the problem.

Does anyone have any ideas on what the issue is? I'm sure I've missed something obvious...

Thanks for the help!

[BlackVCG]

Magaholic-

Thanks for the detailed information. It really helps me to figure out your problem.

The first thing I noticed is that all of your barrels are a bit on the small side. The JJ Ceramic usually runs about .687" and the Autospirits are about .686-7". I know you said the JJ seems to be the size of a Crownpoint, but have you actually measured the bore? Try sliding the bolt into the barrel. If you feel resistance, you need to smooth out the tip of the bolt since it's a bit oversized to prevent blowback.

If you have dial calipers, measure the distance from the tip of the bolt to the stem sticking out the back of the valve. The overall length should be 2.010".

Also, what kind of gripframe are you using on the gun and what is your input pressure?

Just give me that info and I should be able to figure out the problem for you.

[Magaholic]

I will check the bolt/barrel fit when I can.

As for the other info, I'm using an intelliframe (blade) and for air, I've got a 45ci/4500 ACI bulldog II with 800psi fixed output pressure.

As for actually measuring the bore of my barrels...I haven't done that. (And I'm pretty sure I don't have access to the proper tools to do it.) I do know the paint that fits the J&J nicely (properly) also fits the crown point nicely. That's why I feel they are about the same size. As for the Autospirit...I haven't used that barrel much since I picked it up. I've been running the Bigshot primarily since the paint I've been using was a little big for the Autospirit.

Thanks again and I'll post later with the bolt/barrel fit...

[Magaholic]

I checked the length of the bolt and it is indeed 2.010".

The bolt slid easily, without any resistance, into the J&J ceramic barrel. When I tried the Autospirit, I did feel a surprising amount of resistance. My question is, then:

If I need to sand down the tip of the bolt slightly, what is the best way to go about doing that?

Your help is very much appreciated!

[BlackVCG]

Don't use your Autospirit unless you sand down the outer casing of the bolt up towards the tip. You'll see the seam about 1/4" back from the tip and just in front of the seam you'll see the bolt is has a slightly raised area. Sand down that part all around the circumference of the bolt to reduce the O.D. and make it fit your AS better.

I'll bet your problem was due to having too tight of a carrier and it worked better when you switched it out, but since it was in the Autospirit when you made the switch, it still had a problem with the bore being too tight.

Also, what kind of oil are you using?

[Magaholic]

I'm currently using Gold Cup oil. I'll take a look at sanding the bolt down a little before I use the Autospirit again. (Shouldn't be for a few weeks, anyway....The paint I have now is too large for the Autospirit and it'll take some time to use it up...)

Thanks for all the help!

[BlackVCG]

Try using the blue KC Oil if you can get it. With a high performance setup like LX, you really can see the benefit from using a high performance oil like KC.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
Try using the blue KC Oil if you can get it. With a high performance setup like LX, you really can see the benefit from using a high performance oil like KC.

I'm surprised you would reccomend KC Oil when AGD's own Autolube is just Gold Cup repackaged.

Ogre

[BlackVCG]

I'm well aware of that. Just because AGD puts it with there guns doesn't mean I like it or it's actually a good oil. The way I see it, it's a decent oil, but it drys out o-rings and discolors them. KC is the superior oil. RobAGD and I both use nothing but KC and I know Rob has yet to replace any o-rings in his RT, which he's had since 1996. We're working on getting Tom to switch to KC oils, but there is a big price difference.

[ogre55]

Now see what you done?

:D

I am going to have to go and get KC Oil after I ordered and received 2 tubes of Aotolube for me and a friend. Damn.

Oh well. Paintball is an expensive sport and if it means better use of my RT, I'll make the investment. What's a good place to get it? My friend ordered a bottle from I and I Sports some 3 weeks ago and he is still waiting for it.

Ogre

[BlackVCG]

Here's a list of dealers that sell KC Oils. I can get it at a few local stores for about $5 a bottle. One bottle will easily last a year or so.

http://www.kercon.com/dealerlocator.htm

[LittleJP]

sigh i finally get my lvl 10 in and i cant seem get it to work correctly...

alright im using an rtpro input pressure @950 (if that makes a difference)


Following the instructions on the site I started with the carrier with 2 grooves on it and no dots.. LEAKED HEAVILY from barrel.. (im talking a 100 psi/a sec).. assuming it was the described barrel leak i upped the velocity hoping it would stop. It actually seemed to get worse right up until the point wher air came out of the back of the gun..
now down to 2500 psi .. i figured it was the wrong carrier... same situation now 2200 psi... went to the 1.5 carrier which very snug on the back of the bolt and got same result yay 1800psi... convinced now that it wasnt the carrier but either the spring and/or shims i began to try diffferent combinations to no avail... i put back in the non lvl 10 componants just to make sure it was the kit and not my gun and my gun worked as normal...
*note i did the thing where you install the lvl10 with no shims and push on the bolt face while its leaking to hear if it changes tone.. and it didnt change at all

So basicaly facts are:
pretty sure I have the carrier picked right (the one wiht one solid line and no dots)

Heavy venting from barrel..... about 100 psi a sec..

No change in springs or increase in velocity made the leak stop or even slow (unless you count when the velocity went up enought to make it vent out back of gun instead of front

gun works fine with Non lvl 10 parts...


I am having the exact same problem as demonguy and lilfroboy. I installed the LX in my retro valve and it began to work after finding the right carrier (1.5) that worked. However, after about 40 shots it just vented air out of the barrel at a VERY fast rate, quickly bleeding my air off. So today I got a fill and it did the same huge leak thing. I switched carriers about 5 times, tried shims, no shims, spring size, etc. Nothing worked, still just vented out barrel, but stopped when I pulled trigger (didnt shoot, though). Having almost run out of air, I put the original assembly in and it worked fine. I had an extra co2 tank, so I installed LX on my classic valve. It did the same thing, venting out barrel at very high rate. Again I went through, trying all possible combinations of carriers, shims, springs, to no avail. (Yes, I tried raising, lowering velo., didnt do anything)

Please help, or send me to someone who can help. I don't live near anyone with much knowledge about LX, so I doubt anyone nearby can fix this. Thanks.

BlackVCG: Measure the bolt pin length. Use dial calipers and measure from the tip of the bolt to the tip of the pin sticking out the back. It should be 2.010". Also, is the nylon backing washer in place and are you installing the carrier with the o-ring side first? Test fit the o-ring and carrier on the bolt pin before you install it to make sure it has a good friction fit to it. If it doesn't try going down in carrier sizes. If none of the carriers get the o-ring tight on the bolt, then try a new o-ring since they all differ in size.

LittleJP: Haven't gotten home (from school) yet to measure bolt pin, but I was using the backing washer and the oring/carrier combination (carrier 1.0) was getting a good friction fit for me

BlackVCG: Does your carrier have the black o-ring on the outside and is it in good condition? Are you installing the carrier with the o-ring side pointed towards the back of the valve? Are you using any shims?

LittleJP: I have tried with and w/o shims. black oring looks fine. I am installing everything in the right orientation. This leads me to believe the bolt pin IS the problem, which i will verify tonight.

[nospmas311]

Hey. I just installed the LvL. 10 but have not been able to shoot paint out of it. I put my squegee in it to test and it fires and works fine, but seems a tad bit hard. I've tried adding more shims and am at the .5 carrier. The 0 carrier does not let the marker fire. Any ideas?

[Havoc_online]

shims dont change how hard the bolt is, only the ponit that the bolt can release pressure, just leave 2.

the object is to use the BIGGEST carrier that doesnt leak, not the samllest that fires;)

hope this helps.

[nospmas311]

that helps alot. I thought I wanted the smallest that fired. Thanks

[k9hero]

HMM i use a automag classic and i was thinking about bying a lvl 10. But looking at this page and all the problems i just want to know if its worth it?

[WAH11]

Ha Guy's and Gal's,

I got my level 10 the other day, no instructions came with the bolt but it didn't mater. I spent 2 hours in this site reading all the postings from people who have already installed a level 10, i took there advice and in 5 minutes my mag was running great.not 1 probem so far.

Thanks everyone for your help, i made the installation of the bolt so eazy.

WAH11

[mrhooie]

Originally posted by k9hero
HMM i use a automag classic and i was thinking about bying a lvl 10. But looking at this page and all the problems i just want to know if its worth it?


worth every cent and every minute :)

[kutter]

OK, got my Level 10 in for my SFL and went to install it and the bolt will not fit, it gets hung up on the stainless insert on the mainbody. Now, it appears that it has developed a bit of a lip, but before I break out the ole' wood rasp and go to hacking away, I was looking for some input from some folks. I read some post earlier about some similar things but do not recall anything concerning SFL's. So would it be best to sand down the insert, since it seems that the lip would have developed as a result of bolt motion over time?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

[Havoc_online]

the SFL needs a different sized bolt.(I'm pretty sure, anyway)

[BlackVCG]

The SFL needs a larger bolt than the stock LX bolt. If you got the SFL bolt from AGD, then you have the right bolt and just need to smooth out the SS insert to get it to fit.

[kutter]

Yup, I got the level 10 kit from AGD, well I guess I will have to give that a go then, thanx for the info Black :)

BlackVCG: Yes, but did you specify that you needed an SFL bolt? If you didn't then you need to get the real SFL bolt. The difference is the tip is larger so it has less blowback.

[JodoCast]

My level ten works great

but when i get to about 800 to 900 psi left on my tank gauge

it stops working

what should i do??

any feedback would be great

thanks

will

[lillfroboy]

nothing, its what its supposed to do, it needs alot of psi to opperated thats why you turn up your velocit to let more air in to power the LvL 10

[Duke Henry]

O.K., I have acquired a SCUBA and can put in my level 10 tonight.

But, since I am still a MAG newb, I have a really stupid question.

I have put in a 1.0 carrier, no shims, and the stock spring as suggested to start off.

Now, when I air up the marker air comes pouring out of the barrel. Now, I rechecked my carrier and it really is the best choice. The 1.0 is pretty snug, whereas the 1.5 just slides off. The .5 is really tough to get off.

So, I should also state that my velocity has to be really high. I had previously cranked it up, and if I keep cranking it up I notice that my leak does get much weaker. However, I have begun to see the thread on the back adjuster, and I don't want the thing flying out on me either!

It is not leaking out of the back, but if I keep turning it, can I damage the gun?

Also, when I get it to the point where it stops leaking, pulling the trigger does NOTHING.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[slateman]

My lvl 10 seems really loud, like I'm firing with the stock bolt and stuff. Is this normal?

Second: When I install and test the carrier pack I hear a very slight leak. I have to put my ear right up to the hole in the powerfeed to hear it. I went down to the smallest carrier (the one with no grooves, right?) and I still heard it. It's almost completly inaudiable at a distance of over 1 foot. Is this normal?


Edit: I just realized that my tank has 800-900 psi left. Is this an issue?

[Havoc_online]

Duke Henry if you can see threading, you might be turning down the velocity.(I assume it's a RT/Emag valve and not an A.I.R. valve)...remember clockwise is higher velocity.....counter clockwise is lower velocity...(I'd put 2 shims)

slateman you may have a bad o'ring if it leaks with the zero carrier, I'd just start over with a new o'ring. It shouldnt leak.

[Duke Henry]

Oh god - what a blunder! Man I feel embarassed! Note to self - do not work on both Tippmann and Airgun Designs guns in the same night until I remember that they are different!

Thanks

[slateman]

ALright. I switched the O-rings and got it working using the second to smallest carrier. No leaks. i did the next step (the shims, dropped two in and had no leaks. The gun cycled (had to turn up the velocity a bit). So I move to the spring and try the longest one. Air leaks out the back so I move to the "middle one" (the one that's been cut, right?) same thing happens. What now?

[Havoc_online]

you know to use the biggest carrier that doesnt leak right?
not the smallest one that works(just checking)..

Use the cut spring, make sure the cut end is on the bolt side, back out the velocity so it doesnt leak, see if it cycles.

[slateman]

OK. The gun works with the stock spring (the copper colored one). I have the largest carrier I can get w/o a leak, and I have two shims. When I switch to one of the other springs, I have to turn up the velocity to high and it stats leaking out the back.

I tried the middle spring both ways and it didn't help. I switched reg. seats and that didn't help.

Any ideas? :confused:


P.S. I really apperciate everyone's help.

BlackVCG: You need to replace the piston if it's venting before you can get to 300fps with the middle spring.

[Fluffy_the_Conqueror]

my lvl 10 didn't come with a back washer. would AGD send one or is there a hardware store that you could get it at (i doubt the hardware store has it though).

[kutter]

OK, well I got the bolt to go into my SFL and so I have Lvl 10 set up on both my Micro and SFL, but here is the rub, both of them still chop balls. No matter what configuration I use the bolt comes forward with too much force. I even tried the tightest carriers with the longest springs, I of course got bolt stick, but when it did not stick it was still to strong. So it sounds like I need new regulator pistons for both of them. Is this correct?

Looking for all the help I can get. :D

[Havoc_online]

slateman what type of barrel are you using? If it's a long ported barrel, that can be hurting you.
Try backing your velocity out a bit and using a stock barrel. that might do the trick.

Fluffy_the_Conqueror I believe you settled everything in another thread.

kutter the bolt doesnt take long to get into second gear, are you sure the first stage is still that hard?

[slateman]

I'm not using a barrel at all. I'm dry firing it w/o one till I can get it to work properly.

[Havoc_online]

you may need a new reg piston.

[slateman]

Yea. I was just talking to Rob on the phone and that what he said. Is there a special High Pressure Piston?

[Havoc_online]

for Classic valve (http://store.airgun.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=17&Product_ID=48&CATID=6)
for RT valve (http://store.airgun.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=17&Product_ID=136&CATID=6)

[kutter]

Yeah, there is no doubt its not working right. I have seen the videos of what it should look like and if I put a squegee about 1/4" in front of it, the bolt definitely strikes the squegee with more force than it should. I will just have to order 2 new RT regulator pistons.

[BlackVCG]

kutter- What's your velocity set at?

[kutter]

Well Black, when I had my Micro out a few days ago it was set about 285. I think the setup I have in there right now is this: 1.5 carrier, with well broken in o-ring, 2 shims, and longest spring. I noticed that my gun was too reactive with the middle spring but got a lot better with the longer springer, still nice and crisp, but not so prone to runaway. Temperature was in the mid 90's with humidity about the same and I was shooting fresh Marbalizer. I did not bounce test it as I shot all I had that day.

I have not had a chance to chrono my SFL since I got the lvl 10 installed, that will occur this weekend. I keep meaning to buy hand chrono but that Keely Watson poster at the pro shop is sooooo distracting :)

I ordered 2 regulator pistons yesterday and they should be here by friday, at least thats what I asked Marcia to do for me, so when I get them in and replace both then I will have a better idea what is going on.

[Irish Deth]

Just want to make sure I'm doing this right.
Changed the carrier to 1.5 to stop the down the barrel leak.
Leaking out the back, tried the shortest spring in the kit, leaks at 230fps or higher. I believe I need a new reg piston.
Is this correct?

I'm using a All American 14" from a splash kit.

[Havoc_online]

ya, sounds like it, what tpye of barrel are you using?

[DarkPhoenix]

After several months of flawless operation, I have to report a slight hick-up in lvl 10 operation. While at my local paintball store, allowing several friends and customers to try out my E-mag with the lvl 10 inside, my E-mag developed a massive leak down the barrel. After removing all paint and air from the gun, I proceed to remove the valve to find the bumper was totally shredded ( they did put almost 10 cases of paint through the gun, trying to cause a chop). After changing out the bumper, I re-aired the gun with the same problem. I then went home, being that I am the only E-mag in the area that I know of and probably the only owner of a level 10 in the area, to use my tools and parts. After trading out all the O-rings and switching O-ring carriers, I finally gave up and decided to post my problems on the tech forum. Havoc recommended that I check the piston on the bolt to see if it had moved out any, and lo and behold it had. After pushing it back in, the only way I could do it was to gently but forcefully use the desk to push it in, I re-aired my gun and it worked as usual. I was wondering if we have come up with a fix to this problem, as I have read long time ago of problems with the piston coming out, that and I am too lazy and time pressed to actually look it up because I am going out to the field to play!

[ALIAS_RT]

Alright i just baught a used RT, i put a lvl 10 in it, but i'm not sure if its working correctly, it won't break paint but 3 out of every 12 or so balls gets burped out and only go about 10yrds and sometimes i get a few balls that just roll out of the barrel when i tip the barrel down to the ground. Does the lvl 10 need to be adjusted or does it sound like i have something wrong with the gun itself?

Automag RT
Crossfire 88/4500
DYE Boomstick
LVL 10
Intelliframe on its way

[DarkPhoenix]

The balls rolling out of the barrel appear to be either a problem with the paint to barrel match (they might be very small) or a failure of the ball detent/nubbin. I recomend going with the newer plastic nubbins, as they will last a whole lot longer and they will not slice a ball, as the wire ones are likely to when they break.

As for the balls burping out, I have experienced that once in a while, but not extremely often. It only seems to happen to me when I fan the trigger for excessive periods of time. I do not know the cause, but my guess is that the tradeoff with having the level 10 is a slightly decreased rate of fire, which I am willing to deal with in exchange for not chopping paint

[BlackVCG]

DarkPhoenix- If you're handy with tools and Loctite, take off the foamie, take a drift pin and tap out the bolt pin from the hole exposed when you take off the foamie. This will remove the bolt pin so you can put a dab of RED Loctite on it and press fit it back in. Be sure to fully clean off any dirt from the tip of the pin surface that is press fitted into the bolt with rubbing alochol. Use a q-tip to wipe off any Loctite that comes out from pressing it in. I suggest using a flat faced hammer on the end of the bolt pin with short, but firm taps. The end of the bolt pin that you'll be hitting with the hammer doesn't contact anything so it's not an issue to hit it with a hammer, so long as you tap it in straight and don't slip. Use calipers to measure from the tip of the bolt to the tip of the pin. It should go in to 2.010".

[Dr.StockClass]

I know the carrier should be *snug* when its pushed in but how snug is snug? I snapped a pencil pushing so hard trying to get a carrier in. It seems like the carrier was machined too wide for it to fit in past the threads in the PT. I can't get the carrier in far enough for the lvl 10 PT tip to catch on the threads, but almost. Should I resort to *tapping* it in with a mallet or something similar?

[LittleJP]

Black, in my post (which was burried too quickly, Grrr) you told me to measure from the bolt tip to the end of the bolt pin, a distance which is supposed to be 2.01". Well, I did measurements and the bolt is 2 and 11/32 inches, much longer than 2.01". What do I do now? Should I send the LX kit in for a replacement bolt or what? Thanks, you have been very helpful up to now, and I appreciate it.

Edit: Thanks a million Black; everything looks good now, just waiting for it to be completely dry.

[BlackVCG]

Dr. StockClass- Pop it back out and then drop it back in. Use the back of a BIC pen and push it in with that. If you push it in wrong, it will go in at angle and it won't budge. Just make sure it looks like it's going in straight and it will go in.

LittleJP- Are you handy with loctite and a drift pin? If so all you need to do is take off the foamie, insert the drift pin into the hole that is uncovered when you take off the foamie and tap out the pin. Clean off the tip of the pin that press fits into the bolt with alcohol and and then put a dab of red loctite on it. Put it back in the hole and tap it in with a flat faced hammer. You really can't do any damage to the pin with the hammer so be sure to tap it nice and hard so it goes in all the way. Measure it so that it's 2.010" and then use a Q-Tip to wipe off any of the red loctite that came out when it was being press fitted. Let it sit for 24hrs and it should be good to go. Use one of your extra foamies that came with the kit to replace the old one. Be sure to clean off all of the old glue and rubber material before you put on the new one.

[Strider]

I've noticed that with level 10, the reactivness of my trigger is down to practically nil. Any recommendations? I saw a few posts regarding this earlier, but no answers... (I might have missed it, this is a LONG thread. :) )

Perhaps a FAQ regarding level 10 teching might be in order?

[Havoc_online]

it shouldnt affect reactiveness, what are your settings? are you sure you are using the biggest carrier that doesnt leak?

[MagMans13]

ok my level 10 is awesome but sometimes i have to push on the front of my bolt to get it to fire again

then it will fire a couple shots then i must push again


what do i do ????????????????//


any help would be great

also i have some probs with my crossfire tank and it leaks out the fill nipple

any suggestions

thanks will

[Havoc_online]

if the bolt doesnt bleed the pressure, drop in another shim.

as for the fill nipple, check the o'ring that's in itmake sure the tank is empty

[HIKARU]

Just posting my personal experience with the LX installation process.

Using ReTro Valve, black hopper right powerfeed body, agd flatline 68/3000 tank. output pressure at 850~900. Velocity unknown after testing (no chrono) since I want all the leaks and misc. problems solved before putting paint through the marker.

-Used 5 line carrier (3 on front then 2 on rear) 2 shims, longest spring. Problem massive leak down the barrel.

-Used 2.5 carrier, 2 shims, longest spring. Problem massive leak down the barrel again.

-used 2 carrier, 2 shims, longest spring. Problem massive leak down the barrel.

The previous three leaks were due to the carrier being too loose around the bolt.

-used 1.5 carrier, 2 shims, longest spring. Problem gun would shoot then stick. STOPPED LEAKING THOUGH!

-used 1.5 carrier, 2 shims, medium spring. Problem gun wouldn't shoot. Solution turned up velocity to unknown amount (no chrono available oops). new result gun would shoot and bounce back with nothing there at lower velocity setting and as i increased it the gun would resume shooting normally and bounce back if i held my squeege in the chamber (down the barrel, haven't tried down the power feed yet). UPDATE gun shoots fine but developed a small leak after about 50 shots. Proposed solution according to an earlier post on this thread it was said that using the next smaller carrier will stop this leak. I have yet to try it. I will reply once I tried it with my final setup.

[Koosh]

What is the easiest way to get the carrriers out of the power tube? mine doesnt want to come out, and I get a small leak down the barrel, so would that be the next size smaller, or larger?

[HIKARU]

UPDATE
LX setup: 2 shims, 1.0 carrier, medium spring, lapco big shot barrel, ReTro Valve, BIG BALL paintballs.

STATUS
-Leaks are all gone

-the bolt stuck one time on rapid fire(only within the first 30 shots after i made the above adjustments to LX), but never did it again.

-the Level 10 system is working, I put a dollar bill in it bounced, i put scotch tape on a paintball and put it half way into the chamber fired 2 times, bounced both times (didnt try beyond that since I didn't feel like cleaning up a mess atm). Fired 100 rounds while having inconsistant velocity and on about 4 occasions heard the Level 10 psssht noise in effect.

-the VELOCITY is VERY INCONSISTANT NOW!!! using a radarchron hand held chrono I was getting velocity readings from 249 to 291 and it seemed to jump anywhere within this range every shot. THIS HAS TO BE FIXED!!!!!

Proposed Solution
Reading through some old posts here I see that solutions range from changing the type of paintballs you are shooting, to replacing/cleaning the REG SEAT.

IF ANYBODY KNOWS ANY SOLID SOLUTION TO THIS INCONSISTANT VELOCITY ISSUE PLEASE POST AND PLEASE PM ME.

NOTE: My friend with a EMAG w/LX installed (snakestangs old emag) gets VERY CONSISTANT VELOCITY when we used the same radarchron hand held chronograph his readings ranged from 183-188. So its not the chronograph..

TheFlamingKoosh,

Since I dont have a dental pick, I improvised and used a paperclip and bent one end with a pair of pliers (note: bent on the extreme end of the paperclip so you can have a tiny hook, having too large of a hook will make you unable to get into the carrier hole, ok that didnt sound good but thats how it works).

If your leaking down the barrel I would suggest changing your carrier to the next smaller size.

[Snewk]

Use your field strip screw, set it into the powertube and into the carrier, turn it to the right to kind of "thread" it into the carrier and simply pull. Works like a charm if you don't have dental picks or some other kind of picks. Wal-Mart sells a really nice set of Stanley picks for around four dollars.

[HIKARU]

paperclip, bent with plier... works like a charm. dont use the cheapo flimsy paperclip u need the average size ones.. not the heavy duty kind either.

[Duke Henry]

I probably have missed it looking through the 7 pages, so I do apologize if this has already been asked.

I have slapped in my LX into my RT Pro. I am using 2 shims and the 1.5 carrier.

Anyway, I am noticing two things.

1. When I fire, I notice that the bolt seems to return too far back. When I let go of my trigger after firing, the bolt seems to move forward just a pinch and when doing so gives a little hiss. Should I remove a shim?

2. This could be related, but right now I am sitting around the 295-310 FPS range. Should I continue to chrony the gun, and fire as much as possible to break in the o-ring and perhaps this will allow me to drop my velocity a bit? Right now, if I drop it down any farther the gun will not do anything.

Thanks

[BlackVCG]

The bolt is suppose to move a little bit forward when you release the trigger. If it constantly leaks or lets out a little hiss and then stops, then you have it set right at the point that the o-ring is barely sealing the vent hole in the bolt piston. Remove a shim and it should be good.

Are you using the longest spring? If so, then put in the middle one so that it will start operating at a lower velocity and be more reliable up around 290fps. It needs to get a bunch of cycles to break in the o-ring. Make sure it's oiled too.

[Duke Henry]

Right now I am using the middle spring (cut spring). Just to see, I will remove one shim and see how that works.

If I put in the longer spring, would that make my velocity problem worse?

Also, temperature it is quite cool out right now. Just above freezing, around 5 degrees C. So, somewhere in the 40's in F. Thanks

[Edit: I just noticed that I never removed the little plastic bumper on my assembly. Am I supposed to keep it on, or remove it and store it with my old bolt? Just curious...]

[Update: I put in the shortest spring and am able to drop below 300. Right now I am running around 270-290 FPS. There are some spikes in the range, and so I will have to fine tune my velocity setting when I can get more paint.

Now, I can put my squeegie up near the bolt, and the bolt will tap it, and then reset. But, I have a feeling that it is still hitting a bit too hard. I put a ball halfway into the port, and it chopped the ball. Now, I would imagine that putting in a longer spring would fix the chopping problem. However, then I do not think I will be able to chrony below 300 again.

When I dropped down to 1 shim, I had leaks and it was inconsistent all over the place. When adding another shim my velocity is much more consistent. However, I could not get it below 300 using the middle spring. When I put in the shortest spring, I could go below 300.

Any ideas? Thanks]

[lillfroboy]

take it off

[Duke Henry]

Once I get the SCUBA filled again today and get more paint I will remove the rubber bushing, and put the middle spring back on and try again.

Thanks

[HIKARU]

UPDATE
LX setup: 2 shims, 1.0 carrier, shortest spring, lapco big shot barrel, ReTro Valve, MARBALLIZER paintballs.

air system: AGD Flatline 68/3000, currently adjusted to 850~900 psi output.

STATUS

-No leaks

-Haven't done a rapid fire test yet to check for bolt stick.

-Consistant velocity, 6 shots, individually loaded results:

283
289
286
285
268
283

Odd how the 268 got there. I tested another 6 shots individually loaded and got results ranging from 283-290. Close enough for me! Previous chronograph results ranged from 249-291.

-Scotch taped a MARBALLIZER paintball and lowered it half way into the chamber and fired (once). Result was the expected bounce back of the bolt.

-Put finger inside chamber and fired, result again was the expected bounce back. I'm assuming Level 10 functions are all there.
Solution
In my previous post I mentioned that I was experiencing inconsistant velocity after installing Level 10. I read a more recent post regarding this issue and somebody proposed that changing over to the shortest spring alleviates this.

In my previous post I was testing using the medium spring and since then I have changed the spring to the shortest spring size and couldn't be happier with the results.

History
-ReTro valve without Level 10 - Shooting consistantly, 6fps variance at most (example 283-289).

-Installed Level 10, 2 shims, 1.5 carrier, medium spring - Everything was ok until I fired about 50 times a minor leak developed down the barrel. Due to the leak I didn't check velocity.

-Adjusted Level 10, 2 shims, 1.0 carrier, medium spring - The smaller carrier stopped the leak. Chronographed the gun and had very inconsistant results 249-291 fps.

-Adjusted Level 10, 2 shims, 1.0 carrier, shortest spring -
Chronographed the gun and had very CONSISTANT velocity results in the 283-289 range.

Judging from my history I started with what I presumed to be a clean ReTro valve since it was shooting consistantly before the Level 10 installation. I did have a lingering thought that perhaps my valve became dirty or otherwise mucked up in the proccess of playing before I installed Level 10, or perhaps in the installation proccess itself (I find this hard but you can never be too sure).

I hope this information can be of assistance to anybody else, I thank the AO forum members for all their valuable insight to the various dillemas associated with the Level 10 installation.

I will field test this in speedball this weekend will post performance results.

[Duke Henry]

Congrats Hikaru! I look to have mine running as well as you. It is also good to hear of something using the shortest spring, and getting it to work so well. I was afraid it would still be too hard on the paint.

Definately encouraging!

[BlackVCG]

Duke- You're talking about the clear/yellowish bumper that goes on the valve and the bolt comes back and hits that, right? If so DO NOT remove it. That must be there, otherwise you'll end up breaking your bolt or powertube.

[Koosh]

Ok, here is my problem...

Got and installed the level 10 in my SFL E-Mag. Thw 2 carrier leaked a little, so I went down to the 1.5. Installed it with 2 shims, everything worked fine. I thought that the carrier/bolt was a little tight, but the next one up leaked, so I guess that is what I have to do.

Everything worked great. While playing around with it, (using the Cut spring) it stopped on everthing, fingers, paintballs, just like the level 10 is supposed to.

When I went to use it in a game however, it all changed. It fired fine for about 10 shots... then I got the level 10 PFFFT noise, and the next shot broke. I am assuming that it pushed a ball in the barrel but didn't fire it, the next one fired and broke both of them. At the time however, I assumed it was a fluke, cleaned everything out and went to start the first game. fired another 20ish shots, same thing happened... I didn't bring a squeegee on the feild because I had so much faith in the level 10... long story short: I continued breaking balls like mad the entire day.

About half way through, I completey took my gun apart, and added another shim. With that, the problem went away mostly... I broke like one in 200 balls, instead of one in 20 like I was. There was alot of paint goo all around the breech, so I am assuming that that could have caused the break.

I am out of paint and air for a while, but does my current setup sound good? I mean, do you think that fixed the problem?

thanks guys...

[HIKARU]

TheFlamingKoosh,

This is just my opinion.


I broke like one in 200 balls, instead of one in 20 like I was.

That is totally unacceptable for an emag with Level 10. I'm sure you know this :). Lets try to fix the problem shall we?

-What is your output pressure set to?

-What velocity range are you firing in, example: 283-289 fps.

-Was your gun firing consistantly (velocity wise) prior to the Level 10 installation.

-Is the cut side of the cut spring facing towards the valve?

[Koosh]

Heh... I'm not sure if you'll get the answers you want...

Output pressure was 850 psi on my preset Crossfire tank.

Velocity looked fine, I played woodsball on my friends land, so no chrono. If I remember right I turned it all the way up, then unscrewed it two entire turns. I didn't have enough time or air to see if unscrewing it more would help...

I bought the gun used, the previous owner didn't give me the level 7 bolt, and he uninstalled the level 10 kit... figured it would be the best for me to install it myself. He says it worked perfect for him... He used the '2' carrier, which is the one that leaked a little bit when I had it.

Cut spring has the cut-end facing the bolt, not the barrel.

I just got to thinking, wouldn't putting in a shorter spring help with the thing? I mean, that way it would have less resistance and it could move faster before venting. Just my idea...

I probably won't be able to try any more things until this sunday at the earliest, I'm kinda of poor and won't be able to afford the paint. DOH!

[Duke Henry]

O.K., I am keeping the rubber bumper on there (never did take it off).

So, I am using the shortest spring, 1.5 carrier, and 2 shims.

Now, as stated before - I can't seem to get the gun to chrony below 300 with the middle spring. (I put about 400 shots through it).

Also, with the shortest spring I still chopped some paint. Now, assuming that the fault is not with the paint (I will pickup some new stuff Wednesday), what are some suggestions for getting my LX up and running sweetly?

Should I try to get it to work with the short spring, or the medium spring, or something else?

Thanks

[LawFox32]

ok well my problem isn't that bad,but its annoying, if I do not shoot my gun btw games then right off the break, I pull the trigger around 3 times and nothing happens and then after that third pull, everything is fine, I have the med. spring, 2 shims and 1.5 carrier, what can I do to get it working all the time

thanx

[BAD007]

Sorry if this has already been posted,
I have been trying about all carriers in my mag but what what happens is that I gas it up it will leak big time then I can hold the trigger down and it will mostly stop and the bolt can be clicked back agin then if I let go of the trigger it does it again. I have no shims in for the fact that I am testing the right carrier.

[MPRoberts0]

Hi,
I have a mini-mag with a 10" CP .685 barrel that was working fine until I upgraded to the level 10. Now the bolt is sticking inside the small bore barrel. I have 4 other medium barrels and this is the only one that this happens with. I've emailed CP and they haven't returned my email yet. I really love this barrel! What should I do???? Any help would be appreciated.
Marc

[ogre55]

Originally posted by BAD007
Sorry if this has already been posted,
I have been trying about all carriers in my mag but what what happens is that I gas it up it will leak big time then I can hold the trigger down and it will mostly stop and the bolt can be clicked back agin then if I let go of the trigger it does it again. I have no shims in for the fact that I am testing the right carrier.

What kind of gun? Is the leak out of the barrel or out of the back?

Ogre

[bunkerhugger]

Originally posted by LawFox32
ok well my problem isn't that bad,but its annoying, if I do not shoot my gun btw games then right off the break, I pull the trigger around 3 times and nothing happens and then after that third pull, everything is fine, I have the med. spring, 2 shims and 1.5 carrier, what can I do to get it working all the time

thanx

Go to a bigger carrier or super polish the bolt piston. I had exact same problem, polished my piston and everything is great. This seems to be a problem when the carrier is so minutely too tight that going to a bigger carrier causes slight leakage.

[bunkerhugger]

Originally posted by MPRoberts0
Hi,
I have a mini-mag with a 10" CP .685 barrel that was working fine until I upgraded to the level 10. Now the bolt is sticking inside the small bore barrel. I have 4 other medium barrels and this is the only one that this happens with. I've emailed CP and they haven't returned my email yet. I really love this barrel! What should I do???? Any help would be appreciated.
Marc

Try honing out the barrel slightly, but only the breech part. Then you still have a small bore barrel, but the bolt won't hang up on it anymore.

[BAD007]

I have a classic mag, its comming out of the barrel a lot and does with all carriers. I can put the 7 in and it will work fine though.

[Duke Henry]

Originally posted by BAD007
I have a classic mag, its comming out of the barrel a lot and does with all carriers. I can put the 7 in and it will work fine though.

Have you cranked up your velocity? You will need to do so after installing the LX.

[BAD007]

Yeah I know that but its not going to stop the leak comming out of the barrel.

[Duke Henry]

Do you have an adjustible tank? If so, make sure you are pushing out at least 800 PSI, maybe up to 850 PSI.

[hitech]

Originally posted by BAD007
I have a classic mag, its comming out of the barrel a lot and does with all carriers. I can put the 7 in and it will work fine though.

The carrier(s) are not sealing properly. Make use the black oring on the outside is not damaged and oiled properly. When changing carriers are you removing the small power piston oring and using it (the same one) in the new carrier?

[BAD007]

im using a crossfire preset. I am using different o rings also. I oiled them too. I have tried all that thats why I posted because I was starting to think something is really wrong with this thing. I am going to try that stuff aagain and tinker around with it, thanks for your help guys.

[bunkerhugger]

Originally posted by BAD007
I have a classic mag, its comming out of the barrel a lot and does with all carriers. I can put the 7 in and it will work fine though.

Check the piston on the level 10 bolt. It should only be sticking out of the back of the bolt by a quarter of an inch or so. If that piston isn't seated properly it can back out and will cause leaks like that. Unfortunately it is not a user repairable item. Fortunately AGD will replace it for free. Your best way to check this is to compare your bolt to another level 10 and see if they look identical.

[Bulldog]

Very small leak down the barrel

Using 0 carrier, no shims, short spring or cut spring, seems like no matter the setup, it still leaks a little down the barrel. It's very small leak but agravating. Arrg.

[dugger]

ok so here goes, got level 10 kit and have been trying to get it installed and working. i have read a couple of pages of threads and hasn't fixed my problem.

as far as the o-ring carrier goes, i am using the loosest one that won't leak as per the instructions. i have no idea how you guys are coming up with the labelings as 1.5, 2.0, etc., however according to what i have read i am using the correct one.

i have tryed all the springs that came with the kit, including chopping an extra stock spring.

intially the gun would take pressure but pulling the trigger resulted in nothing. i read about the main spring, so i chopped the extra one i had. the gun now fires and even stops on a folded dollar bill.

however, i cannot and i mean absolutely can not rapid fire.

when i pull the trigger with no paint i can rapid fire all night. when i have paint in the gun i get off no more than 2 shots per second. i can hear the bolt resetting after each shot.

wtf?

-dugger

[NiHiLo-thc]

I just recently installed a Level 10 on my MinniMag and I can gas the gun up no problem without it leaking. But the trigger wont engage when I screw on my tank. It just sits there like there was no gas in the gun... Thanks for all the help :)

[Koosh]

Dugger:

You can tell the size of the carrier by looking on the outside of it. If you see 1 ring, and 1 dot on it, then it is the 1.5 carrier. Rings= 1 and dots = .5

What is the velocity at? I am no tech, but I think you need to increase either the velocity, or the Pressure from your tank, if it is adjustable.

NiHiLo:

Same thing I am guessing, either increase tank pressure, or increase velocity.

Like I said before, I am no tech or anything, but reading all the responses by techs always seem to say to increase pressure/velocity if it isn't firing well...

[NiHiLo-thc]

Well thats the problem it's not firing at all. When I gas it up there is no leaks but my trigger sear wont ingage so it is just flat. But as I turn the velocity up it starts to leak outta the front of the barrel and makes a clicking sound(the air does)...Once again any help with this would be appreciated... :)

[Duke Henry]

If it is not doing anything at all, then usually turning up your velocity fixes that issue.

However if you start leaking down the barrel as you turn up your velocity, use the squeegie test to see if you need to drop to a different carrier.

Also, make sure that all o-rings are lubed thoroughly...

[MPRoberts0]

Originally posted by bunkerhugger


Try honing out the barrel slightly, but only the breech part. Then you still have a small bore barrel, but the bolt won't hang up on it anymore.

What about polishing or sanding down the bolt a little bit??? any reccomedations???????? Thanks in advance.

[Koosh]

UPDATE!

Today I switched to the "stock" spring, I had 4 springs that were given to me with the kit (remember I had bought it used). I used the second smallest one, but not one with the cut-end. I also took out the third Shim I had installed.

So now I am running the 1.5 carrier, 2 shims and that spring:

Today during play I broke a few balls, but I am not sure how. I know of at least 1 barrel break, but there was TONS of goo in the breach again today. That is either from it chopping (don't think so, it hardly made the level 10 PFFT noise at all), or me using bad paint (I had crappy 32* compitition... hey, its cheap!), or the brand new HALO I was running. It was a halo-A, so it could have got a little exited and ran the balls in too far... coupling that with the crappy paint, and that would equal goo in the breach.

Either way I am going to try to add the third Shim for my next day of play, see if that will make any difference, then I will send the halo for the B upgrade, and I'll be set for life!

[ogre55]

What is the bore on the paint. I had a similar problem with crappy Severe paint, which was tiny bore and my HALO B. It could be because the small bore paint, force fed by the HALO caused a jam.

Or that the tiny paint, able to roll down your barrel, is then hit by another ball that is shot at it, in the barrel, causing the barrel break.

Ogre

[Koosh]

The bore was pretty small, the paint barely rolled out of the Boomy on the mag, every 6 balls or so I put through it stopped in it, but a very small "blow" and it went right through. I don't know any specifics on the 32* paint though....

[DoubleDutch]

Will Level 10 be standard on future AGD markers? I have been toying with the idea of getting a nifty new RT Pro or E-Mag, or getting the Retro valve for my Automag Classic, but I was wondering whether I should wait until they came standard with Level 10.

[dugger]

well, i tryed jumping the pressure but to no avail. i am not sure what the pressure was at (i am using CO2, yes i am still using CO2) so i looked around and finally found someone with tech stuff on bolt pressure through a normal bolt. a little more searching told me the pressure of CO2 should be way over that (duh it works). within this site i found people who had to go 800+psi (still under CO2 tank pressure), but with my reg as far in as it would go still nothing. i eventually came to the conclusion that i should try doing what everyone always told me to not to do: clean the regulator. i did and it is working awesome. my shots are stable to within 3 f/s. i would still not recommend as a general maintenance to clean out your reg. but it was my last ditch attempt to get this to work and it did.

-dugger

note: i did have an airsmith at a pro-shop check my cleaning to verify i wasn't going to blow anything up prior to gassing up.

[pbzmag]

Just got my level 10 bolt today. I had a problem getting it to fire. Turns out to be my hyperframe, though the battery is old.I'll try with a fresh battery. It took me a few hours to figure it out after much tinkering. Anyone else have this problem? I'll wait till tomorrow to fine tune it.

Update:
I replaced my battery in my Hyperframe and everything was fine. It was weird, with the stock bolt, the hyperframe was fine but with the Level 10, it had problems.

[srrdude]

foamie fell off while chronoing the gun at the shop today.. i have the xtra one... but wat should i use to get it back on? and what will the affect b if i play without it? can i use a rubber cement? or hot glue (shudders)? i need help asap.. got game in 9 hours (and its 12:15 in the morning here by the way) so please help pronto!!

[Havoc_online]

WOW I havent checked this thread in a while! everyone's being a great help!

Bulldog if your getting leaks with the 0 carrier you need to use a new o'ring.

TheFlamingKoosh
it's important to know what your chrono'd at to get the full effective use of your gear. I'd suggest that you and your friends all pitch in to buy a radarchron so you are more organized(and safe) when playing on your own land.

2 shims are fine, they only change the position that the bolt vents at, if you not getting bolt stick then your fine.

If balls were rolling out of your barrel, then check your nubbins. Halo's do put a lot of pressure on the ball stack so a bad nubbin could easily double feed and break paint.

32* paint is not very consistent in it's size, if you want to shoot great you need to buy good paint, sorry but that's the way it is.

the cut spring will be softer on paint(a lot softer) than the standard size spring.

Duke Henry
if you can't get the cut spring to chrono below 300(while your using the biggest carrier that doesnt leak) you could cut the spring down a bit more till you can chrono just right so it will be softer on paint than the standard spring.

also, you don't really want to oil the carrier o'ring directly cause it gives a false sense of friction so you will have to keep constantly oil'ing it for it to work properly.

LawFox32
it's a classic problem, try polishing the bolt stem a bit. (if your already using the biggest carrier that doesnt leak)

BAD007
sounds like a bad bolt stem if your using the cut spring with the cut side on the bolt. get your hands on some calipers and see that the bolt stem tip to the front of the bolt measure to 2.010-2.015"

MPRoberts0
the level 10 bolt is thicker so help with blowback, that's normal with small bore barrels. Do what bunkerhugger said if you can get your hands on that type of equipment, but dont polish the bolt, it's hollowed out as it is. All I can say is use another barrel with paint that fits it good.

NiHiLo-thc
are you putting at least around 800-850psi into the marker?make sure your trigger rod length is 1.98". use the cut spring(cut side on bolt). turn up the velocity till it fires reliably, if it leaks down the barrel, try a smaller carrier. if it leaks from the velocity adjuster, get a new reg. piston.

DoubleDutch the valve's will eventually come with the level 10 installed(right not the only ones that do are Extreme's) but it most likely wont happen until AGD sales a good chunk of their current level 7 bolts and parts.

pbzmag
that happened because the hyperframe has to use more power to move the sear with a level 10 because there is more pressure on the bolt. You will most likely run through batteries faster(I prefer the Iframe over the Hyperframe)

srrdude
It happens, you should use superglue, not rubber cement or hot glue. make sure you scratch off all the old glue, scratch the surface a bit with a screw driver so the glue has more contact surface and you should be fine. Put pressure on the foamie when you glue it for a while, and let the bolt air out anywhere but inside the marker so it could cure in time. Good luck.

[The Last Conformist]

I spent 3 hrs at the field and could not get my lvl 10 working properly. First the 2 carrier worked, but i guess the oring "broke in" so now .5 is the largest carrier that wont leak.

Any way my setup right now is .5 carrier no shims smallest lvl 10 spring. The behaviour of my system is as follows.

1. If i add shims it leaks.

2. If i use the middle or longest spring i cant get it below 300 fps.(i get like 350 with longest and like 335 with medium)

3. It is very inconsistant in its current state. Velocity goes something like this.

278 286 290 215(not a typo) 284 291

My understanding is that this type of inconsistancy is usually caused by to small a carrier but anything above .5 leaks. And i have oiled the thing several times.

4. If a ball only goes half way in the breach the bolt hits and cracks the ball(2 bounce paint) then resets and the ball falls into the breach where the next trigger pull nicely distributes the paint evenly throughout the breach and barrel.

5. This is just odd. I was first testing with my dye stainless steal barrel but i noticed that when i rested my barrel on the cronograph that it started leaking. So i pushed up on the end of the barrel with my hand and it leaked, but stopped leaking when i stopped putting pressure on it. I switched to my j&j ceramic(larger bore than dye) and it stopped.

Help me please, i am very confused :confused:

BlackVCG: Here's what you need to do. Put in a new o-ring and test fit it to the bolt Start with the 1.5 carrier. If it feels like it has friction, but is pretty loose, then go down in size. If it's nice and tight to begin with, then leave it at that carrier/o-ring combo. Get a pair of side-cutters and cut off about 1/2 of a coil on your middle spring. Test it out and see if you can get it shooting right around 280fps.

LX is very inconsistant at first until the o-ring has broke in. Just cycle it as much as possible and then go the to chrono station. The leak when you push on the barrel means that the carrier size is one size too big. You can put double o-rings on your barrel, put some black electrical tape in the grooves and then put on your barrel o-rings to tighten up the barrel and keep it from moving around as much when you push on the barrel tip.

[Koosh]

Thanks alot Havoc!

My original problem was that it was pushing paint into the breech, and not firing it... so it was ventin too early.

My thought was that it was pushing against too hard a spring, so it would move faster, and vent later with shorter spring, so thats what I tried. It worked really good, but I still got some ball breaks, I am just unsure about where they came from. I won't be able to play for a while now (no job = no money! doh!) so I won't be able to test some new Ideas...

[Mike Meeks]

Only two issues during the install of my level 10.

A. The foamie shot out of the bolt almost immidiately.

B. The bolt did not fit inside my JJ Ceramic barrel.

Neither are that big of a deal in my opinion. Barrel thing is kind of annoying but I had planned on getting a new barrel anyway.

More of an FYI than a request for help.

[ogre55]

Mike:

You may want to run a search on the thread, but I beleive there is at least one other person who reported problems with the Level 10/JJ Ceramic Barrel combo.

Ogre

[Severe]

Mike,

I was having the exact same problem with my J&J 12". The small amount of play in the barrel was enough to cause my gun not to fire. However, I was using the middle spring at that time. I went to the shortest spring and it solved that problem!

If you're still getting some barrel stick, try lapping the breech on the barrel a little. Or even check the barrel 0-rings.

Hope this helps.

[G-force]

I put the level 10 in my automag classic.....i have the smallest spring that comes with the kit, 2 shims and the #1.5 carrier, i got it to work fine but, i have to turn in my velocity screw in the back way up and it is now too far in for my tourney lock on the back...I cant get the tourney lock on any threads of the velocity adjustemt...What can i do? is there a longer adjustment screw you guys sell or can i mill the back of the cylinder itself a few thousand so i can get the tourney lock to catch the threads?? Need to know in a hurry if at all possible...thanks alot

[dugger]

i hear people complain about sex all the time too. that doesnt mean it isnt worth the occasional problem (ie dealing with the gf).

i had issues with this at first like many others but they have been resolved. my advice to you is play with your mag for a while. if you chop balls upgrade the bolt. if not, leave it alone. before i put in a two finger trigger i chopped > 1/1000, afterwards i had issues due to short stroking.

my gf thinks i care more about my mag than i do her?!? what do you think?

mag
o-ring kit/oil $$
fires everytime i finger the trigger
doesnt get handled by other guys
ugly green AA barrel

gf
going out $$$$$$
gets @#$king "headaches"
goes to random house
parties
has hottie roommates

ok...so maybe its close.

-dugger

[DonkeyKev]

i just got a level 10 for my minimag yesterday. i set it up exactly how the instructions said on the website, and it worked fine. then today when i went to shoot my gun again, it wouldn't shoot at all. i turned up the velocity and tried all three mainsprings but nothing worked. please help me fast!!

[ogre55]

Originally posted by DonkeyKev
i just got a level 10 for my minimag yesterday. i set it up exactly how the instructions said on the website, and it worked fine. then today when i went to shoot my gun again, it wouldn't shoot at all. i turned up the velocity and tried all three mainsprings but nothing worked. please help me fast!!

I had the same problem. Try changing your carrier to a looser one. Find the loosest carrier that you have, that will not cause a carrier leak down the barrel. Also, as you switch carriers make sure to keep using the same o-ring with the carrier.

Ogre

[DonkeyKev]

i already tried a different carrier but it leaked. i think i used a dif o-ring on the second carrier though. i also tried replacing every part in the lvl 10, including the mainsprings, but nothing.

[Havoc_online]

dugger - why upgrade?
If you don't have chopping problems, that's great, I didnt either, infact a lot of ppl I've talked to didnt see the need to upgraded because they never chopped. But then some ppl change thier because...

... everyone wants an accurate marker. When it comes to accuracy the things that matter most are the barrel, paint/barrel match/ consistency, and recoil(reciprocating mass) which matter under rapid fire.

Pretty much all high-end markers are capable of being equally consistent and of course the barrel/paint doesnt apply between markers much since you can get the same barrel for most markers and obviously use the same paint. So what does it all boil down to? Recoil. The level 10 bolt give the marker less recoil(since there is less mass moving when the marker is fired) than any other marker. So, in theory, the level 10 mag is capable of being the most accurate marker(not including the factor of a persons preference).

DonkeyKev
try a higher input pressure. what are you currently running?

[Gijim]

I couldn't get my mag to shoot with level 10 until I took the barrel off, then it fired fine. So I took the valve out put the barrel back on and found out the barrel was slightly offline from the body. At first I assumed it was the barrel but it was a problem on each barrel, with more examination I found out it was the barrel lock pin that was sticking up too high and causing the barrels to be off center. The body rail I got from smartparts wasn't drilled properly and the lock pin didn't seat right in the rail. So watch out the pin could be the problem, if it shoots fine without the barrel then you know its the barrel or the pin that holds it. That was my problem hope this helps someone.

[Tankdriver]

To start off, I've read this whole thread a couple of times trying to figure out my problem, so essentially done my research on this topic trying to troubleshoot the problem.

I got my level ten two weeks ago, as per the instructions, I put in the 2.0 carrier, longest spring, 2 shims. Turned up the velocity until it fired consisently and a small leak developed down the barrel(~100 dryfires). At this point I switched over to the 1.5 carrier, with the same o-ring, leak stopped, the gun worked. I don't have a chrono but I was satisfied with the being able to get it to fire consistently under rapid fire and put my gun away.

A week later, I decide to install the new Palmer sideline reg that I got. I put it on, wouldn't fire, so I turned up my Stab until it did. Fired about twenty shots, then it stopped firing no matter how high I turned up the velocity on my Stab. At first, I thought their was too much friction preventing the gun from firing, so I switch to the middle spring. Still didn't work. Switched to the 2.0 carrier. Still didn't work. Then with the shortest spring it would fire halfway.

It occurs to me that I might be out of CO2, but my 20oz still feels pretty full. And having read previous posts in this thread about how the gun stops firing when there's 800-900 PSI left in the tank(BLACKVCG can you confirm this?)

Anycase, I go over the Glenn Palmers website and I dig up this info from one of his FAQs

amount of liquid CO2 in a 20oz tank pressure

21 oz 1150 psi+
20 oz 950 psi
19 oz 875 psi
17 oz 825 psi
15 oz 815 psi
12 oz 810 psi
6 oz 805 psi
2 oz 800 psi

Here's my hypothesis-

a) IF the above information is correct(no reason why it shouldn't be, coming from Glenn himself the Co2 expert)
b) AND If the level 10 does indeed stop working at around 800-900 psi left from the air source

THEN following the above conditions

The level 10 will not work with a Co2 air source, given that output PSI drops below 850 somewhere between 19-17 oz of CO2 left in the tank! So basically, with a 20 oz Co2 tank, I can only get 2-3 ozs of shots with it before the output pressure drops into the questionable range of 800-900 PSI where LX isn't going to operate with the middle or the longest spring?

I am going to the store to get my 20 oz CO2 tank weighed this afternoon to see how much CO2 is left and to see whether my hypothesis is correct. I am reasonably sure that this is why I can't get my level 10 to work.

Help is sincerely appreciated, especially from Havoc and Black.

Here's the link from which I got the info-

http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/FAQ/stabfaq.htm

[BlackVCG]

It sounds as though you're low on air. Go ahead and get your tank filled and see what happens. You might run into some problems running the stabalizer with Co2 and LX. Since that's a double regulated system and the output of the Co2 tank fluctuates with temperature, then you might experience certain times where it doesn't fire consistantly or at all. Test it out and see how it does, but if you experience problems with not being able to get the velocity you want, not firing or something of that sort, then try switching to the shortest spring or the cut middle spring.

[Tankdriver]

BlackVCG,

Thanks for the fast response, but my question wasn't answered.

The level 10 will not work with a Co2 air source, given that output PSI drops below 850 somewhere between 19-17 oz of CO2 left in the tank! So looking at that table above, with a full 20 oz Co2 tank, I can only get 2-3 ozs of worth of shots with it before the output pressure drops into the questionable range of 800-900 PSI where LX isn't going to operate with the middle or the longest spring?


"Since that's a double regulated system and the output of the Co2 tank fluctuates with temperature, then you might experience certain times where it doesn't fire consistantly or at all. "


I don't see why I should have any more problems using a secondary regulator than another that is using a nitro setup. Using a Stab on an automag makes it into a dual regulated system, same as anyone else that is using regulated nitro airsource(assuming that most nitro tanks have a built in reg) therefore reducing variations in input pressure. Isn't that the purpose behind having a regulated airsource? I don't really understand what you said about temperature fluctuations on Co2, isn't the regulation ratio from the secondary regulator supposed to take care of that? 50:1 change in PSI, or whatever.



Co2 tank pressure(very unstable, affected by outside temperature, liquid phase etc) -> Palm Stab, regulates it down to whatever I set it to -> the automag valve with LX, which I'm assume operates at 800-900 PSI when using the middle or the longest spring.

Following the above statement, if I want to use Co2 with LX, then I am limited to using the shortest spring in order for the marker to fire consisently(taking into consideration the outside temperature, and how much co2 is left in the tank), correct?

Sorry if these are dumb questions to anyone, I am just trying to learn about my automag and how to get the LX to operate with co2.

[Koosh]

why not take the sideline stab off and see if the gun fires with the co2 left in your tank? Is the tank aluminum or Chrom molly? I know I was always fooled into thinking I had more co2 in my chrome molly tank than my aluminum...

I know there are people out there that use co2 and leval 10 without only having 2-3 oz of usable air. I also dispute the leval 10 needing 850-900 psi to work right, I mean, my 800 psi output crossfire tank worked great on it, I still got shots off when it went below 800 psi, the gun continued to fire (even though the velocity was crap) until there was around 400 psi in the tank before it gave up...

Just my thoughts...

[Lakeview Bulldog]

I have new 68 AutoMag Classic one of the first upgrades I was going to buy was the Level Ten. But after reading the problems people have had I am now a little intimidated. Are they really that hard to put in? Or are these just rare occurences that have all just congregated here for help? Also does the Level Ten come with a detailed instruction manual or do you have to go to the site for instructions? Thanks.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Directions are on the AGD site and here in the forum. It's not to hard just takes some time. These are the 2 pages that helped me most, other than cphilip! http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40904
http://www.automags.org/resource/level10/index.shtml

[rtpro2002]

hey room can any one tell me. if mags shoot well with lp tanks . just wondering

[minimag187]

Gas is leaking down my barrel with my lvl 10 minimag when I gas it up.

I got it fixed, using longer spring and a new carrier.

[RoadDawg]

OK. My problem is I got a huge leak down the barrel. I'm trying to remove the carrier but I can't get it out. What is the easiest to get it out and is that really the problem. Thanx for the help. Oh it is also on my Minimag w/ Retrovalve.

[dugger]

i have used a dental pick, paperclip, and a nail punch. i dont recommend the nail punch.
-dugger

[RoadDawg]

Man this thing is in tight. My dental pic isn't budging it. Any ideas?

[dugger]

if you have 2 of them (dental picks), try to apply force on opposite sides of the carrier. you may be unevenly applying force and making your job more difficult. otherwise, if you can get a hold of a nylon bolt and force thread it into the carrier you may be able to pry it without damaging the carrier. other than that, i am pretty much out of ideas. how much force did you have to apply to get it in there to begin with? it shouldn't have needed much...

-dugger

[RoadDawg]

Woo Hoo. I finally got it out. A dental pick and a paper clip finally got it out. It didn't take much to get it in. I think I was putting uneven pressure. Thanx for your help.