IAO AGD BillBoard Sighting! [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

shartley

07-26-2002, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by skirts
sorry to burst your bubble, but that billboard will make heads turn and is just what airgun designs needs.

inovative marketing students???
what do you think they teach us in marketing...
do what works.

it made you look twice and made you comment, so it worked.

im not going to turn this thread into another pissing match but i hope you stay with AGD for their quality markers

kisses and hugs

skirts
I believe we have had this discussion in private and have come to an understanding, and agree that not everyone will agree on all things. And this is not a bad thing.

That being said, no bubbles have been busted. Seeing a car wreck also turns heads, but it is not always a good thing now is it? ;) How about if you put a naked girl on a street corner holding the AGD logo over her head… THAT would turn heads as well. A good thing? Not likely. The idea of “any press is good press” or “as long as you get their attention it is good” are simply not true in many cases. And I will leave it at that.

I agree about doing what works…. I will also say that MANY things work. This type of advertising is not the only thing proven to work, it is only one choice. And this choice in some people’s eyes is not a good one. I am one of them. I am actually disappointed that it was made. Will I not stand by AGD products because of one thing I feel is a GROSS mistake and lapse of judgment? No. But I hope that it NEVER happens again, and it is alright for members to express their opinions on that matter.

I am not saying you were trying to stop anyone from posting negative opinions of the billboard, but I can assure you that there are more than a few who feel that way… but don’t post because they don’t want to get “attacked” for their opinions. AGD has always stood for CLASS, not …. Well, you get the idea. People buy its products because of the quality of the product, not the quality of the breast shown with it (or in this case insinuated, which is pretty much the same thing as it is used.).

Tom has never been one to subscribe to the “monkey see, monkey do” mentality…. I would advise him not starting now.

I would not have even commented on this, since we have already polished off this topic in private (LOL), but your post prompted me to point out the other side of the coin. No hard feelings on this end…. As there were none when we talked about it before. :D

(I hope it WAS you that I talked with… LOL I know it was one of you guys. ;))

P4ULuk

07-26-2002, 09:58 AM

You're right it is disgracefull....... they forgot the follow up poster with the halo on a warp feed with the charming yound ladies 'assets' clearly on show to the masses and It should be here as the tag phrase. :rolleyes:

Lol just playing guys,

Paul.

:D

skirts

07-26-2002, 10:25 AM

;)

i know its been discussed before, just adding my thoughts
we have all been heard

see you guys at IAO

hehe

wes

07-26-2002, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by shartley

...That being said, no bubbles have been busted. Seeing a car wreck also turns heads, but it is not always a good thing now is it? ;) How about if you put a naked girl on a street corner holding the AGD logo over her head… THAT would turn heads as well. A good thing? Not likely. The idea of “any press is good press” or “as long as you get their attention it is good” are simply not true in many cases. And I will leave it at that...

Sam, if the naked lady held the sighn abover her head, the woulndt look at the sign....:eek: :D :D ;)

Riotz

07-27-2002, 02:40 AM

Some people buy a product because some hot chick models it off.

Some people buy a product because it is a GREAT idea.

If you don't want to buy a GREAT product just because some chick models it, then that's your loss.

shartley

07-27-2002, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Riotz
Some people buy a product because some hot chick models it off.

Some people buy a product because it is a GREAT idea.

If you don't want to buy a GREAT product just because some chick models it, then that's your loss.
I understand where you are coming from..... And that is fine.

But this "that's your loss" stuff gets OLD really fast, and is very dangerous for any business that is SERIOUS. But it is easy to say when it is not your money on the line, OR reputation. I just shake my head every time I see people so easily toss away paying customers as if they don't want or need them..... bad business.... bad business. Simply put, it is not THEIR loss, it is AGD's loss....

AGD makes fantastic markers, but let's face it, they are NOT the only company that does make great markers. ;)

TRIAD

07-27-2002, 09:59 AM

Shartley, I agree with you. I was appalled after seeing that billboard. This sport can be undermined by anti-gun people and people against violence, we don't need parents mad about sexually-related advertising. Sure, if the whole world were horny 16-year-old males, this billboard would be fine. But it's not, and therefore this billboard is a disgrace to AGD and the sport itself. Indeed, I still believe AGD makes fine items, but that they have made a mistake with this billboard.

Now, since this has become a political debate about sex, this thread should be closed. My thread about AO'ers against GOD in the pledge was closed, after much debate, because of its political nature. Therefore, in keeping with the rules of this forum, I believe this thread should be closed. As in my thread, much debate has occured, and everyone has had their chance to say what they think. Any more discussion will be futile. Make this a classic thread and put it in Historic Posts for everyone to see for all I care. But, this thread must be closed.

Riotz

07-27-2002, 12:10 PM

Do either of you drink Pepsi?

Riotz

07-27-2002, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by TRIAD
Now, since this has become a political debate about sex, this thread should be closed. My thread about AO'ers against GOD in the pledge was closed, after much debate, because of its political nature. Therefore, in keeping with the rules of this forum, I believe this thread should be closed. As in my thread, much debate has occured, and everyone has had their chance to say what they think. Any more discussion will be futile. Make this a classic thread and put it in Historic Posts for everyone to see for all I care. But, this thread must be closed.

This thread is about an AGD billboard and "sex". I'm sure your thread was just about god.

shartley

07-27-2002, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Riotz

This thread is about an AGD billboard and "sex". I'm sure your thread was just about god.
You are correct.

And yes, I drink Pepsi... but I don't recall any nude or suggestively nude ads by them.... yes, Britney shows skin, but it is a bit different than the billboard no matter how much you may be trying to link them together. And I will also add that when I first saw them using her, I hit the roof..... ;) So, what is your point exactly? ;)

Riotz

07-27-2002, 12:29 PM

It is the same, NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY. They are both using "sex" to sell their products.

shartley

07-27-2002, 12:39 PM

No, sorry it is NOT the same. LOL And trying to explain how blatent nudity (and smut) or the perception of it is different than showing belly skin (which is actually a fashion style again) and cleavage but not in a sexual position or inuendo seems to be a waste of time.

Yes, sex sells, but it seems too many people just can't understand the difference between class and smut. Again, you are free to LIKE whatever you want.... but I am very sorry to have to tell you that the truth to the matter is there is a HUGE difference... whether you want to admit it or not.

I do however realize it may make you feel better lumping it all together.... why don't we also lump all CARS together as well. That would end a lot of arguments here on AO as well. LOL But I am sure most of us would agree that having a motor, 4 wheels, and all the things that make a car a car, does not make all cars "the same". Yes, they will all be cars..... but they are not all Sports Cars, or all Family Cars.

(Added: Sex vs Sexuality. Big difference.)

Croix71

07-27-2002, 01:07 PM

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. As for me it's just an ad. Big deal, move on.

KHartley

07-27-2002, 01:25 PM

Why do you think that in order for AGD's product to sell that you HAVE to have a naked woman on a billboard?????

This confuses the heck out of me. Would you all be going goo goo if it was a naked male holding the marker down just covering his privates on that billboard? I highly doubt it.

You want to say that if we don't like it don't look at it? Well, if it's thrown in our faces how do you honestly think that we have a choice NOT to look at it. Come on. Get real.

I have read some of the other threads where so many of you drool over some girl. It is shameful and I really do not believe it has any place on AO boards. As has been stated before this is not a "boys" only club.

As Sam said sex does sell but there is a HUGE difference between smut and class. That billboard in my honest opinion is just plain smut. No class whatsoever.

And, Riotz, I drink diet Pepsi, do you think I buy and drink it because they show Brittney? Man, I think not. I buy it because I like the taste of it.

Skirts: Do you mean the only way that AGD is going to sell their product is by using that billboard????

The kids are not the ones handing out the cash to buy most of the paintball gear,it is their parents. You should not forget that. It seems to me that too many times it is forgotten who actually shells out the money for the product. Just because a kid uses the marker does not mean that HE/SHE paid for it.

I for one am disgusted by this type of advertising. But then, I don't HAVE to look at it right?!:confused:

manike

07-27-2002, 01:34 PM

If it was a billboard in the UK or Europe people would be much less bothered by it than they are with it being in the USA. We have much worse (!?), advertising products for women (maybe via men?) such as make up and lingerie.

It doesn't bother me either way to be honest. I see it and think 'good AGD is doing some marketing'.

That said, this one does come across as much more erm how to put it 'smutty'?

Sex and nice images that appeal to the market audience do sell products but there are ways of doing it with 'class' or ways that are 'crass'.

I don't know if this billboard fits into the 'class' version which I would usually associate with AGD products.

manike

Thordic

07-27-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by KHartley
Why do you think that in order for AGD's product to sell that you HAVE to have a naked woman on a billboard?????

No one ever said you HAVE to. But Tom CHOSE to, based on the fact it WILL draw a lot of publicity. If you think it'll draw more negative publicity than positive, especially in this sport, well, time will tell, but I'd put money on the fact it'll get AGD positive attention.

This confuses the heck out of me. Would you all be going goo goo if it was a naked male holding the marker down just covering his privates on that billboard? I highly doubt it.

If it was a female dominated sport, then AGD would be smart to use a male model. As it is, the market is over 90% male, and using a male would be bad marketing.

You want to say that if we don't like it don't look at it? Well, if it's thrown in our faces how do you honestly think that we have a choice NOT to look at it. Come on. Get real.

The point of a billboard is to make people look at it. If you don't like it, don't buy AGD products, don't post on AO, hell, don't buy KAPP or WDP products either. Oh yeah, JT and Crossfire (magazine) are pretty bad too. Why are you in this sport again? All these evil companies use sex! How dare we support them.

I have read some of the other threads where so many of you drool over some girl. It is shameful and I really do not believe it has any place on AO boards. As has been stated before this is not a "boys" only club.

Its not a "boys only" club, but out of the 5,000 members you have what, 20 girls maybe? You in the vast minority. If you want AO to have a more female-oriented atmosphere, start a push for more women to play paintball. Don't blame us for paintballs demographic.

As Sam said sex does sell but there is a HUGE difference between smut and class. That billboard in my honest opinion is just plain smut. No class whatsoever.

Have you talked to Tipper Gore lately? You two could do wonderful things on this whole censorship thing. Imposing your morals on the rest of the world is a great way to make friends, Im told.

And, Riotz, I drink diet Pepsi, do you think I buy and drink it because they show Brittney? Man, I think not. I buy it because I like the taste of it.

And now we get to least intelligent comment of this post, or at least the easiest to refute.

We don't buy AGD because of a chick on a billboard, we buy it because it WORKS GREAT. Pepsi uses women to attact people to buy thier product, and then they rely on their taste to KEEP those customers. It works well for Pepsi, seems like AGD is just taking a lesson.

The kids are not the ones handing out the cash to buy most of the paintball gear,it is their parents. You should not forget that. It seems to me that too many times it is forgotten who actually shells out the money for the product. Just because a kid uses the marker does not mean that HE/SHE paid for it.

I see TONS of little kids running around with WDP/JT/KAPP, etc products. Those companies have been using sex to sell thier products for FAR longer than AGD, in much more suggestive ways than this billboard. I fail to see parents caring about how the company advertises.

In the end, it comes down to what is going to make AGD the most money. Thats the bottom line. Taking the moral highground doesn't pay the bills.

If some people, such as yourself, are offended and won't buy AGD products, then thats too bad, because AGD will pick up 5 new customers who WILL buy their products.

shartley

07-27-2002, 01:44 PM

Thordic,
I will only say your post made you look like a total rear. And I will leave it at that as to not break any AO rules.

irbodden

07-27-2002, 01:51 PM

I personally find it in bad taste.

Besides the marketing for AGD, it makes paintball look like a sport filled with a bunch of scummy trash.

Everyone wants our sport to 'come out of the woods' and be a respected hobby for any proffesional. From doctors to lawyers, make the sport just like bowling or golf. But its not going to happen with trash like this.

You expect to get the game into mainsteam media? How better than getting wealthy people hooked on the game? It's not going to happen with ads like this, some people have 'class'. ;)

irbodden

07-27-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Thordic
No one ever said you HAVE to. But Tom CHOSE to, based on the fact it WILL draw a lot of publicity. If you think it'll draw more negative publicity than positive, especially in this sport, well, time will tell, but I'd put money on the fact it'll get AGD positive attention.

Man..

What are you thinking? It might please the average backwoods trash, but do you expect the sport to grow with ads like this?

If you ever want people with CLASS to play, you'll need to show them the paintball community has CLASS. Which I am starting to doubt.. :rolleyes:

Muzikman

07-27-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by irbodden
I personally find it in bad taste.

Besides the marketing for AGD, it makes paintball look like a sport filled with a bunch of scummy trash.

Everyone wants our sport to 'come out of the woods' and be a respected hobby for any proffesional. From doctors to lawyers, make the sport just like bowling or golf. But its not going to happen with trash like this.

You expect to get the game into mainsteam media? How better than getting wealthy people hooked on the game? It's not going to happen with ads like this, some people have 'class'. ;)

Muzikman Claps...

15 years old (or is it 16) and more mature and logical than what most 20 somethings would be on the subject. I knew I liked this kid for a reason and it isn't his 22 other guns...:)

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by shartley
Thordic,
I will only say your post made you look like a total rear. And I will leave it at that as to not break any AO rules.

If I had any attention span I would have read this entire thread, but as I get bored easily I will just comment on this post.

Sam - I respect you and your opinions, but I don't like the fact that you can tell everyone on this board that they are right or wrong and the second someone comments on your wife's post you call them a "rear." Sounds hypocritical to me.

~Fred

shartley

07-27-2002, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by MagDog68

If I had any attention span I would have read this entire thread, but as I get bored easily I will just comment on this post.

Sam - I respect you and your opinions, but I don't like the fact that you can tell everyone on this board that they are right or wrong and the second someone comments on your wife's post you call them a "rear." Sounds hypocritical to me.

~Fred
Ever hear "it is not what you say, but how you say it"?

Noone has ONE problem telling ME off or saying I am out of line... BUT when I do so, I get posts like yours? Wouldn't that be more on the lines of hypocrital? Same standards for everyone please.

Plus, his post was not just a "comment", and to think a man would not stand up harder for his Wife or children is silly. Think about it. I think most people would WANT a father, husband, friend, etc. like me... but I could be wrong.

Mango

07-27-2002, 04:19 PM

I never jump into marketing threads because, quite frankly, I'm the least qualified person to discuss the topic. But I will say that I was at first disgusted with the add from the initial shock that AGD would do something so bold. But lets face it, walk through any shopping mall in america and you see scantily clad models in the windows of just about every clothing store.

But this billboard is just what AGD needs to spark interest. It will get people to stop by the booth and see what AGD is up too these days. Well thats my opinion on the whole thing.

But another thing, look at advertiseing for, lets say, the X-games. They hardly show any women at all. They just show guys flying on dirtbikes, or skateboarders doing nutty tricks. So once again, I'm confused as to what works and what dosent.

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by irbodden
Everyone wants our sport to 'come out of the woods' and be a respected hobby for any proffesional. From doctors to lawyers, make the sport just like bowling or golf. But its not going to happen with trash like this.

You expect to get the game into mainsteam media? How better than getting wealthy people hooked on the game? It's not going to happen with ads like this, some people have 'class'. ;)

OK - where have all you people been for the last 35 years? How is this any different from Brittany Spears ripping off her outfit to dance on stage in a thong and bra or the WWE using "Women Wrestlers?" Does anyone watch Anna Kournikova for her tennis abilities, or could it be because she was just voted the sexiest woman in the world by FHM magazine? I am pretty sure that the ATP has exploited this for its own gains.

Sex sells, plain and simple. If it wasn't accepted by the "mainstream media," I doubt many advertisers would use it so much.

~Fred

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 04:35 PM

Ever hear "it is not what you say, but how you say it"?
I have read plenty of posts from you that have been condescending, so don't act victimized.
Noone has ONE problem telling ME off or saying I am out of line... BUT when I do so, I get posts like yours? Wouldn't that be more on the lines of hypocrital? Same standards for everyone please.
True Sam, many people do react to your posts this way, but you should expect it when you have dubbed yourself "The Enforcer" and delight in making teenagers look stupid

Plus, his post was not just a "comment", and to think a man would not stand up harder for his Wife or children is silly. Think about it. I think most people would WANT a father, husband, friend, etc. like me... but I could be wrong.
True, but I think your wife is probably old enough to defend herself Sam, without the childish names. I am merely pointing out that your reply was in line with what you usually complain about. People making personal references rather than arguing the facts.

~Fred

shartley

07-27-2002, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by MagDog68

OK - where have all you people been for the last 35 years? How is this any different from Brittany Spears ripping off her outfit to dance on stage in a thong and bra or the WWE using "Women Wrestlers?" Does anyone watch Anna Kournikova for her tennis abilities, or could it be because she was just voted the sexiest woman in the world by FHM magazine? I am pretty sure that the ATP has exploited this for its own gains.

Sex sells, plain and simple. If it wasn't accepted by the "mainstream media," I doubt many advertisers would use it so much.

~Fred
I am not Rick, but....

You can not compare what Britney does as part of he ACT on stage to sell her SONGS, with mainstream marketing. And the other examples don't wash either since they don't (to my knowledge) post nude or topless (at least not in a public place). Female wrestling? Again, you are not seriously putting that in with mainstream marketing are you? That is the product they are selling. LOL

The difference is one is selling just that. The Billboard and similar things are selling an item NOT related to sex or sexuality, WITH smut. ie. sex and sexuality done in a classless manner

If your way of thinking held true you would see an ad on the wall in Sears with a half nude woman holding the strap wrench. But you don't. If you wanted a poster like that, you can get them from many compaines such as Snapon, but you PAY for them and put them up yourself. That is what the issue is. What is a choice for the consumer to see and what is not.

And you can not say that you can choose not to look at a huge billboard..... the reason is that it is put in a public place and to make that determination you HAVE to see it first to know if you want to look or not.

I think we can all agree that it is each of our personal opinions as to if we LIKE something, but it is another knowing what something IS. It is like arguing that a skunk is not a skunk because you say it looks similar to a cat..... sorry, it still stinks no matter what you want to call it.

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 04:45 PM

Grow up man - look at the world you are living in! You are going to argue about semantics, but not the issue of people using sex as a way to sell. I don't know what children you are raising, but I think Brittany is more responsible for 10 year old girls dressing like hoochies than any Paintball ad.

You can argue the details, but the simple fact of the matter is that SEX sells! You can't argue that. This billboard will get the attention of paintball players, we aren't looking to sell paintball products to nuns.

~Fred

shartley

07-27-2002, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by MagDog68

Ever hear "it is not what you say, but how you say it"?
I have read plenty of posts from you that have been condescending, so don't act victimized.
Noone has ONE problem telling ME off or saying I am out of line... BUT when I do so, I get posts like yours? Wouldn't that be more on the lines of hypocrital? Same standards for everyone please.
True Sam, many people do react to your posts this way, but you should expect it when you have dubbed yourself "The Enforcer" and delight in making teenagers look stupid

Plus, his post was not just a "comment", and to think a man would not stand up harder for his Wife or children is silly. Think about it. I think most people would WANT a father, husband, friend, etc. like me... but I could be wrong.
True, but I think your wife is probably old enough to defend herself Sam, without the childish names. I am merely pointing out that your reply was in line with what you usually complain about. People making personal references rather than arguing the facts.

~Fred
LOL I discussed the "The Enforcer" with Tom himself before I started using it. And Tom HIMSELF thought it would be funny to use and that the membership would get a kick out of it. So I would please respectfully advise you to know what you are talking about when making statements like that.

I also don't "delight" in making teenagers look stupid. This may sound arrogant, but so be it... I am NOT responsible if someone who happens to be a teenager makes themselves look stupid by posting something stupid. I would be more happy if they just didn't post, and that goes for any age.... you simply give me far too much enjoyment in other peoples actions.

And at what point does a man stop standing up for his loved ones? LOL It has nothing to do with her age, or her ability to defend or stand up for herself.... I take it you have no kids or wife?

Again, I am sick and tired of people wanting to correct ME, bash ME, scold ME, tell ME what they think, and then NOT expect the same from me, but say it in reverse. If someone finds offense in MY posts they come out and say it. But I am not allowed the same? If someone thinks I am out of line, they come out and say it.... but I am not allowed the same? But then you try to parrot these things back to me?

Okay... I see. I have also heard that people don't like me here on AO either, but just stopped posting about it. Funny that I still get in E-Mails and requests for help on almost a daily basis. Sick of it? YOU BET!

A few loud mouthed folks want to stand up and join the SHartley is the devil croud, so suddenly I AM the devil? It is time the rest stand up and tell them to take a hike. Or, everyone stand up and say what an awful guy I am (and now it seems my Wife is too).

Enough is enough.

(Added: and I find it funny that when I successfully shoot down a weak argument, I get told to “grow up” or personal attacks are made.)

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by shartley

If your way of thinking held true you would see an ad on the wall in Sears with a half nude woman holding the strap wrench. But you don't. If you wanted a poster like that, you can get them from many compaines such as Snapon, but you PAY for them and put them up yourself.

The half naked woman is getting the attention of someone driving by at 55 miles an hour - you cant compare that to someone in a Sears browseing the tool department.

OK - that sounded stupid, but it is your argument. The issue boils down to sex, anyway you look at it.

~Fred

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 04:53 PM

Well if you want to start a poll, I'll be the first to say you are the devil then.

~Fred

PS Who said you were successful? I still think you are wrong.

irbodden

07-27-2002, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by MagDog68
Well if you want to start a poll, I'll be the first to say you are the devil then.

~Fred

PS Who said you were successful? I still think you are wrong.

Why are you turning this into a personal flame war? :confused:

When I see a Pepsi Ad with Britney Spears topless with a soda can covering her chest saying "Wish these weren't here?" THAN I will agree with you. Until then, your wrong.

Sex does sell, but trashy sexual ads doesn't sell to people with class.

If you want to keep Paintball a 'frowned upon sport' keep up with this trash. Otherwise your going to need to get some decently classy ads to draw classy people. Classy people will bring BIG money to the sport..

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 05:28 PM

I didn't start the personal flame war, I am just not backing down from Shartley. Read his post to get more insight on the "devil" comment.

And I personally think the AGD ad is great. Why don't you go pick on the Herbal Essences commercials?

~Fred

Riotz

07-27-2002, 05:47 PM

Shartley is probably upset because AGD ignored his previous opinions and used the billboard against his wishes. Awwww.

TRIAD

07-27-2002, 05:50 PM

This is not a matter of what everyone ELSE does, it is a matter what the paintball industry does. Sure, there are sexually-oriented commercials from companies like Herbel Essences,. but that does not mean these commercials do not anger people with class. Now, I have heard plenty of people complain about the haughtiness of commercials such as these. You people, with the exception of a few, don't seem to understand that IT'S NOT WHAT YOU LIKE. Sure, you horny guys want to see half-naked women on billboards, but if you want to see that, go look at porn. Billboards are there for all to see, not just paintball players, and smutty, haughty, sexually-oriented billboards do NOT impress the common person. While most paintball players will understand the "That Hopper Shouldn't Be There", many people won't understand the warp feed part. They will think, hmm, paintball is a dirty sport, "Jimmy, don't even ask to play". So there goes one child who could change the sport, it will never be known. So, quit being so ignorant and look at the big picture.

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 06:20 PM

I don't think AGD is suddenly going to start plastering all its advertising with smutty pictures like Bruizer or WDP - but in this instance I think the picture works great.

It accomplished two things, it gets your attention quickly as you are racing by on the highway and it adds a punchline to the advertisement. I personally feel this is adding humor to the "sex sells" slogan. At least they didn't just put nude women in for the hell of it. The sex in this ad is a part of the ad, not just the "shiny box" it is wrapped in.

~Fred

shartley

07-27-2002, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Riotz
Shartley is probably upset because AGD ignored his previous opinions and used the billboard against his wishes. Awwww.
:rolleyes:

Not it at all... sorry. You guys can turn this into a SHartley issue if you like, but it simply isn't. Am I disappointed? You bet. But not because they did or didn't do what "I" thought was right.

All the other crap is just that, crap. And I would appreciate it if you let it drop. This is my one and only time of being civil about all this. The issue now (as I am sure many of the regular members know) is not really about the billboard at all, but one of causing problems for me, and now my Wife…. I for one let it all pass… you guys evidently have not. And that is sad.

Lone Gunman

07-27-2002, 07:14 PM

What ever happened to the family that is AO?

When I first joined right after AGD purchased this forum, it was a family! There might and I repeat might be a slight difference in views every other month back then. And I had heard more cussing in a Disney movie! But that was back then.

Now there is a fight or serious dissagreement, like this one, every week. And don't even get me started on the cussing or finding different ways to circumvent the cuss filter. If I were not a kid myself and had young children, I would never let them on this forum, not anymore at least.

Why can't we all just get along?

dansim

07-27-2002, 07:48 PM

BLAH BLah Blahlook i just made the most sense in this whole thread
well its already up and its not coming down i personally could care less first i look at the girl then i drool over the gun

i just want someone to quote me so i feel good

MagDog68

07-27-2002, 07:58 PM

I'll do you one better...

Sooky

07-27-2002, 08:51 PM

Man, I feel like a little kid caught between two fighting parents... :(

However, I think everyone has raised good points concerning the billboard. I have mixed feelings though...:confused:

dansim

07-27-2002, 09:37 PM

no i feel special!!!!:D

Gijim

07-28-2002, 02:09 AM

Actually I'm with Shartley the ad is offensive to the average parent. The big difference is this ad is out where everyone can see it, where as the other ads(JT, Kingman,etc..) are in paintball magazines where most non paintball people won't ever see it. That is the reason I don't buy PB magazines, I have 2 little girls at home and they don't need to be subjected to that type of stupidity. Also in Shartleys defense if you attack him he takes it well but that post directed at his wife was a little rude and I would have blasted that person far more than he did, so he played it quite cool. Anyway, the ad makes me somewhat regretful I bought an automag, some thought will be considered in possibly selling it if AGD can't be more respectful towards the public and the paintball community. Besides we should be more willing to give things up so that more women will be intersted in paintball, half naked women on billboards will turn them away.

manike

07-28-2002, 03:17 AM

Are any of the other BillBoards around the IAO using such images to promote their products?

manike

billmi

07-28-2002, 03:44 PM

Some thoughts.....

Worlds must be colliding, because I don't think I've ever read any other thread where I've agreed with so much of what Shartly had to say.

As to Shartly's comments about sex vs. smut, I think back to the late 80s ads that JT did with "Bon Bon". The most revealing thing she was ever dressed in was a jersey that came halfway to her knees. Certainly the ads got attention because she was a young woman with a big smile - It's fair to say that was "sex in advertising" - but it wasn't smutty, and I don't recall seeing folks offended by it. The first few years that we had the "Warpig Roast" sales at Bad Boyz Toyz Bonnie was signing posters (in which she was fully clothed) with mothers and fathers of teenage players happily bringing them in to the store to get the posters and autographs, and buying products at the sale.

In contrast, last year at the IAO, Wicked Impulse had wet t-shirt contest that devolved into a strip-off (I must also include that it was not authorized by the promoter of the International Amateur Open). I saw two parents, apparently from different families, as it was happening (one a father, and one a mother) dragging their teen and pre-teen children out of the vendor's tent and to the parking lot. The mother, was telling her boys, despite their protests "No, we're not coming back to this one or any other." One of the key employees for the event promoter was told by her husband that he didn't want their sons working at the event the next year because of the environment presented.

I think this billboard, placed near or en route to the entrance of the event, will definitely set the tone for the event in the eyes of the visitors, as being an "adult" event rather than a "family" event. Considering the average age of paintball players (both demographics I've seen from the industry, and from WARPIG's readership), I don't believe that offending parents of teens and pre-teens, and giving them the impression that paintball is not "family friendly" is a very sound move.

Another aspect I thought rather surprising about the billboard was the message that HALO loaders don't belong on AGD markers. Looking at this from a mass media standpoint, the advertisement really only speaks to people who already know what a warp feed is. For someone who already knows what a Warp Feed is I don't expect responses that differ far from "hey, if the loader wasn't there we could see her ****" or being offended.

However for someone who doesn't know what a warp feed is, what message can they get from the billboard? It doesn't tell them that a Warp Feed moves the hopper to a new location on the paintgun. It doesn't tell them that the Warp Feed provides more cosnsitent feeding. The only clear message in the ad is that the HALO should not be on the paintgun. Does that mean that HALO's aren't compatible with Warp Feeds (the brand name listed on the banner)? Does it mean that HALO's are somehow incompatible with the gun shown? It's not really clear.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Note: I edited to change some wording about the wet t-shirt contest. As I had originally written it, one might think I was saying that the company running the wet t-shirt contest didn't mean for it to turn into a strip-off. This was not the case, they encouraged it. What I meant to say, and edited the text to say, was that Team Effort events was not pleased with it, and as I understand the situation made it clear that it was not to happen again.

irbodden

07-28-2002, 04:19 PM

Bill, EXACTLY. Its good to hear it from an 'insider' who can put it so powerfull.

squidboy69

07-29-2002, 10:55 AM

At the risk of escalating this 'flame' war here, the attitude of some of the people here is pretty scary. I'm not so good at this quoting thing, but I saw Throdic say (in the second page of this thread)

"the moral highground doesn't pay the bills".

Now stop and think about that, Bill Mills had told you that the lowest common denominator had cost paintball at least two families (that *WE* know about).. I know I for one refuse to buy WDP equipment because of their shameless attitude, and stopped buying multiple paintball publications due to their advertising practices.

Is it any wonder that our sport is having a hard time getting out of the woods? At least in the woods you have to look for the garbage, nobody throws it at you.

Thordic

07-29-2002, 11:10 AM

Well, first off, this arguement is kinda a moot point, since the billboard is UP, and we won't know until after IAO is well over how well this all turned out.

But I think the very fact this debate is going on is proof AGD's ad is going to be successful at AGD at getting people talking. AGD has been in the background of paintball hype for a LONG time, and before they launch any sort of large campaign to push new products, they have to get themselves back in peoples minds. I think this ad does that.

I also see what Bill means about the ad being somewhat ambiguous to people who don't know what the warp feed is. But, even if people don't know what the warp feed is, I think the ad will draw more people to the AGD booth. And then they can find out all the information they want.

But like I said, the proof has yet to be seen, and they may not even be a clear enough effect so that someone is proven right or wrong. But we'll just have to wait and see.

cledford

07-29-2002, 12:18 PM

For a VERY long time now we've been TRASHING AGD about their advertising practices not being competitive from the prospective of the likes of WDP. Now finally AGD is making strides to match other vendors in the industry and now everyone is crying "boo-hoo, it's not family oriented..." I think this is completely wrong. It is a proven, well established fact that SEX sells. How many people here have written Pepsi about the Brittany Spears campaign? I'll wager not one. Regardless of what people say, the outfits Brittany wears, the gyrations that she does in her dance routines are just this shy of a striptease. Why doesn't this offend your delicate sensibilities? Why, if these advertising practices are so abdominal, are they so effectively used by almost every industry leader in virtually all consumer areas?

Bill Mills, I respect what you've contributed to the sport, but I've got to call you out on this matter. Paintball is not a family event, never was, and shouldn't be. There is a very strong initiative by promoters to have paintball accepted as a true "Extreme Sport." This initiative includes associating paintball with sports such as freestyle biking, skateboarding, and inline skating. There is now a push to have paintball venues at other extreme sport events and progressive/modern rock musical performances. If you've ever been to one of these other type of events - sex permeates the whole environment. (and often not just sex, but alcohol and drug abuse as well...) From what people wear, to the statements on their shirts, to what their doing with one another, and on and on. We can't one day of the week link ourselves with counter-culture type activities, pastimes, and music where decidedly un-family like acts, displays of open sexuality, and very explicit lyrics are the norm - then try to establish a "family environment" the other times.

I'll express what may be an unpopular opinion (especially with the younger crowd) but if a person can be harmed by advertising that has an element of sexuality expressed in it, then they are TO YOUNG TO BE PLAYING. I started paintball when I was a Junior in high school, and dropped skateboarding and bike freestyle for it. Even back in '89 those sports had an element of sex associated with them. That doesn't have seem to harm the kids participating, and those sports have now gained a level of acceptance and participation that none of us would have ever expected. But if a "child" could be harmed by such marketing - should they even be playing at that age? Really, has anyone ever addressed what an appropriate age to start playing is? I'll wager that there are plenty of reasons aside from the sex marketing that there should be a mandatory age limit for paintball. The saddest part is that paintball started out as an adult sport, and has year after year accepted younger and younger players into it ranks. The reverse aging of the sport has been PUSHED by the industry for one reason and one reason only, it makes them more money - period.

You guys need to chill a little - when a women can have an "artificial" orgasm on a commercial for shampoo during prime-time network TV without causing a problem, you need to accept that sex advertising has reached main stream. AGD has a product that is unparallel in the paintball industry. Much more important then that - they are the only vendor I know of that does true SCIENTIFIC research regarding our sport -and they share the data for free!!! If having the most technically advanced marker, and the data to debunk costly myths was an effective means to sell guns they'd be the biggest marker producer out there - instead right now their product has been almost completely eliminated from the ranks of professional competition. Obviously, marketing on technical merit alone does not cut the mustard - and look at WDP, a pretty (yet technically substandard marker to the Extreme) marketed with a HEAP of sex seems to be the most popular "E" marker in use today. At the end of the day, if AGD can compete with them on the marketing front (the easier of the 2) they will lead based on their technical superiority. Until then they won't even get a chance to compete because a bunch of people with nothing else to do will keep the markers from mainstream because they put their interests (how they think the markers should be advertised) before that of the company.

One other thing, I'd much rather see sex marketing then the occult, paginsitic, or satanic stuff that covers most of the rest of the industry - and I'm not even religious. How many people shoot Diablo paintballs? Do you think that the soccer mom's of America aren't going to let their little pumpkins participate in the IOA because the events promoter bases ALL of it's advertising on Satanism? I serious doubt it. If the soccer moms can separate the two - maybe you guys should be able to as well.

-Calvin

MagDog68

07-29-2002, 12:59 PM

Some people may read what I am about to say and think I have made a complete 180* turn from my previous comments -- but I think its is closer to 90*. AGD has made one flaw in this ad -- it put it up in a public place with no explanation of what it is selling. And worse yet, the ad has a hint of "70s porn" to it.

I personally was not offended, nor did I ogle the model in this ad. I thought it was a great eye catcher and did what it was supposed to do -- grab people's attention long enough to say, "AGD has an awesome product -- inquire within!"

If nothing else, I think AGD will make paintball people wonder what the heck they could do to get the hopper off the top of the gun and that is great for AGD. However, I think that would be the best of all possible worlds and as you know, this is definitely not the best of all possible worlds.

What will probably happen is people in the know will appreciate the humor of the ad and may stop by the AGD booth at the IAO for a demonstration of the Warp Feed. And if Veronika (the model for the ad) were there -- it would be so much better.

BUT....people who have no idea what the heck a Warp Feed is will probably think, "What's the nude girl doing with my son's or daughter's paintball gun?"

The dilemma here is not the ad itself, but more where it is placed. If this ad were placed in APG or on Paintballgear.com, people who have a clue would be checking out the ad and asking questions about the warp feed.

As it is, the ad is on a 20 foot high billboard on a highway leading to an event that most mother's probably wish their children weren't participating in as it is. Huge naked paintball chicks while great in my book, don't usually fly with moms! Its generally not a good thing when moms have to worry about their children suffering bodily harm AND sexual innuendoes.

Now I am not saying we have to put a PG rating on paintball, that is completely unreasonable. I do think that when at all possible we should put our best face forward when speaking directly to the general public. In this case, I don't think AGD has done that. The ad is great, it is just being used in the wrong arena.

~Fred

PS To everyone saying that sex sells -- sex sells when it is directed to the right audience. I don't think the naked chick is going to make more people interested in the warp feed if they are not first interested in Paintball. This is where the marketing flaw is. You can't get someone interested in a warp feed if they have not interested in paintball -- just like you can't get someone interested in an inexpensive alternative to HP Laserjet Toner if they don't own a LaserJet Printer. No one puts huge Printer Billboards up because you won't be advertising to your key audience.

This ad should be placed INSIDE the IAO grounds, then it will be targeting the right audience.

billmi

07-29-2002, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by cledford
It is a proven, well established fact that SEX sells.

You know, as often as I hear people who have little to no professional or educational marketing or media background say that, not one of my professors in college while earning my BA in broadcasting said it. Not my media audiences and effects prof, not my Public Relations prof, not my advertising prof, and none of my scriptwriting profs.

Is California State University so off the mark when hiring professors? Several of my professors did teach how sexuality can grab attention in advertising - however it does not "sell" - and if not used carefully enough it can offend driving away potential customers.

As Tom Kaye had stated in the previous thread (Re: the Mancow full auto video), AGD's new marketing focus is on stirring up controversy. As I understand what he was saying in that thread, the whole goal of these ads is simply to get people arguing, thereby drawing more attention to AGD. It's pretty clear that's the real purpose of the billboard since it doesn't tell you anything about the product it's advertising (or even show it), suggests that you should not use another company's product, and the only URL listed on the billboard is for a website selling porn videos. All are well selected points to offend some people with, and get others to argue in favor of it.

As for working to make paintbal less family friendly, perhaps you should send a letter to Debra Krishke, who produces the IAO. From every conversation I've had with her on the topic, more family involvement has always been her goal for the IAO - I think that's pretty evident with the young guns and female divisions run at the tournament, and the anti-drug policies on the property, and her response to the wet t-shirt contest that happened last year.

Also, a question that just struck me... If Capo is the AGD Spokesmodel, why wasn't she used for the billboard?
[and to clarify why I asked that - I'm not implying that she should be used in ads like that, but asking why someone else was used because I suspect the answers have to do with class and respect and beg further questions about class and respect]

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Thordic

07-29-2002, 01:10 PM

Paintball Company Banned From Pennsylvania: Story At Eleven!

When are they going to make the movie? I hear Woody Harrelson is playing Tom, and Courtney Love is playing Marcia. :)

MagDog68

07-29-2002, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by billmi
Also, a question that just struck me... If Capo is the AGD Spokesmodel, why wasn't she used for the billboard?

Because they couldn't take the chance of Fatman and cphilip trying to tak the billboard home with them.

~Fred

billmi

07-29-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Thordic
Paintball Company Banned From Pennsylvania: Story At Eleven!

That would be the second time someone has mentioned something being banned or censored in this thread, yet no banning or censorship has happened, nor has anyone advocated it.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Thordic

07-29-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by billmi

That would be the second time someone has mentioned something being banned or censored in this thread, yet no banning or censorship has happened, nor has anyone advocated it.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

I meant it as a joke, Bill :)

As for Capo, well, you aren't really asking a question so much as fishing for an answer. I figure someone will give you what you are looking for anyway, so I might as well lay it out.

The point Bill was trying to make is that Capo wouldn't do that type of ad because it is somewhat degrading or whatnot. Therefore, by that arguement, if AGD's own spokesmodel wouldn't do the advertisement, why would they do it at all? At least, thats my approximation of what he was getting at. Close enough, Bill?

On the other hand, while Capo may be AGD's spokesmodel, she isn't a professional model. A professional wrestler may say its ok to grapple with half-naked oiled-up men. I personally, not being a professional wrestler, have an issue with touching oily half naked men. When I wrestle with my brother because hes annoying, he is clothed and non-oiled. Its a matter of amateur vs. professional :) You could argue my analogy is totally off base, which is fine, because it is, but hopefully someone understands there is a point in there somewhere, even if it is very loose.

But lastly, no one ever said this ad was classy. No one ever said Veronika or whatever her name is was classy. I don't even think there ever any indication the ad was INTENDED to be classy.

So, in my opinion, whether or not the ad was "classy" enough for Capo to be in is a moot point since class was never an issue in the first place. Whether or not it SHOULD have been an issue is more what we are talking about, so you are ahead of the game by a bit, Bill :)

Also, as for your statement about sex selling and marketing, etc, you make a good point and a not-so-good point. Your good point is sex doesn't sell on its own. You can't sell anything with sex except sex, which is illegal unless you are Miscue (He lives in Vegas, before anyone thinks I called him a man of ill repute :) ). But, sex is a VERY effective attention-getter. Now, I can't speak on using sex in marketing from personal experience. I've worked in marketing for a few years now, but it for a design firm where the client is usually the US Government, and using sex to get jobs from the government is a no-no ever since the Clinton administration left office.

However, the principles of marketing are still the same. You want to capture your demographics attention, and create a buzz about your product.

Ever see really cool or weird commercials that don't advertise a product at ALL? Remember those weird Coke ads a few years back where all the commercial said was something about a weird website, with no mention of the product at all? I wonder how many visits that website got of people going "What the hell is this advertisement for? Should I know already? I want to find out!" Coke created a BUZZ, and drew peoples curiousity. They spent millions of dollars on TV time, and didn't show thier logo or their product ONCE. You had to go to the webpage to get a clue what was going on.

Just as people will have to go to the AGD booth, and go they shall. That ad will create a LOT of buzz about AGD at IAO and in the weeks following. Look at the stir it has caused here, in a SMALL community of the paintball whole. It will get people saying "AGD". That's the point. It's not about selling sex, or selling warp feeds, or selling ANYTHING directly. It's about creating that buzz, getting people talking.

And read the last few pages of this thread, people are ALREADY talking, and the IAO doesn't start for another two weeks.

TransMan

07-29-2002, 01:45 PM

Well im no offended by the bill board but i do agree with shartley and Bill. There are a lot of parents out there that would never let there kid(s) play paintball after driving by that bill board or seeing the wet t-shirt contest. I would have rather seen that ad in a magazine and not on a billboard but would rather not have it at all.

irbodden

07-29-2002, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by cledford
There is a very strong initiative by promoters to have paintball accepted as a true "Extreme Sport." This initiative includes associating paintball with sports such as freestyle biking, skateboarding, and inline skating. There is now a push to have paintball venues at other extreme sport events and progressive/modern rock musical performances. If you've ever been to one of these other type of events - sex permeates the whole environment. (and often not just sex, but alcohol and drug abuse as well...) From what people wear, to the statements on their shirts, to what their doing with one another, and on and on.

You must have been out of it for a LONG time. Skating comps and events aren't like that anymore.

B3, XGames and any demos are 'kid' friendly events. Hell at some Razor (Skates NOT scooters) demos the pros were going out of their way to talk to any little kids they saw, PLENTY of familys showed up.

You have to remember, big sponcers took over these sports and they aren't going to let those types of shennigans go down at any of their venues.

Not trying to flame you though, I read that you got out of it 13 years ago..

ShooterJM

07-29-2002, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by shartley
It is time the rest stand up and tell them to take a hike.

Difficult topic. C'est la vive.

As to my views: I agree with SHartley and Bill.

Perspective though. This is AGD's first foray into marketing. And, from an amoral point of view, they've done a very good job. Considering the demographic, there a few things that will attract as much attention while doing 70mph on the way to a tourny. Do I agree with it, no. Do I understand it, yes. Given the same situation would I choose that billboard, I really don't know. Probably not (specifically because my mother would fly to my house and slap me :D).

Both sides have been presented and I'm sure Tom has read this thread with great concern. I highly doubt that AGD will make this a trend. If it does, then this issue will no doubt be raised again with a bit more urgency.

cledford

07-29-2002, 02:08 PM

Ha-Ha Bill, maybe you're dating yourself. Look around at most of the marketing campaigns for any other male oriented product (Try picking up a Maxim to help) - obviously those marketing gurus didn't go to school in CA... Also, be careful about what you assume about people, in my case you guessed correctly, I do not have an educational background in marketing - but there are posters in this thread that do. For what it's worth, the issue came up 3 time in my academic career: Psychology, Business communications, and Speech. In each the consensus was "Sex sells." Now maybe the Professors here on the east-coast aren't as savvy as their esteemed west coast counterparts, but they seemed pretty certain on the matter when I was in school.

Regarding the letter to Debra Krishke, why? Even if her commitment to the "family" is as strong as you seem to suggest - how does that have any bearing on any of the other national events with their all-female paintball wrestling contests, WDPs "Angels" (complete with heaven) or any of the other goings on's like the cheating, cussing, temper tantrums (gun throwing, "bonus balls"), and everyday attendees walking around in various states of undress with a multitude of body piercings and tattoos? The point is that paintball started as an adult sport, and remains that way if not for the periphery content alone. It isn't for the milk-toast, bible-thumping, thin-skinned type. That may be to bad - but is really a commentary on the state of society in general at this point, not paintball. For the record, I was not specifically suggesting that she is moving the sport in that direction - just that it seems (at least at pro level) the rest of the industry is. Also, I again suggest that people look to advertising practices of the main promoter of the event to determine how "family" family might be. Ask most people from down south or the mid-west about what they think of the "Diablo IAO" and those who participate in it, and you might get an eye opener with regard to main-stream (or should we say main-street?) acceptance to paintball.

My point is that like it or not, the sport is using tactics that are used to sell many other products successfully to the public, especially to adolescent and adult males - and you can't argue with proven success. I agree with your assessment on why AGD put up the sign, and think that (as it was stated a long time ago) "There's no such thing as bad publicity." I'd also submit that "families" aren't necessary for paintball to survive. They are only required for the continual "reverse-aging" I mentioned before - that lines the pockets of promoters (on an increasing basis) by bringing younger and younger crowds (that mommy has to drop off in the mini-van) in.

Finally, I haven't seen anyone else who viewed the ad as a "dis" on Odyssey - of course we know and understand what the Warp is any why it would "move" that hopper. Since the Warp has been out for over a year, I'd suggest that most others do as well.

-Calvin

billmi

07-29-2002, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by cledford
For what it's worth, the issue came up 3 time in my academic career: Psychology, Business communications, and Speech. In each the consensus was "Sex sells." Now maybe the Professors here on the east-coast aren't as savvy as their esteemed west coast counterparts, but they seemed pretty certain on the matter when I was in school.

More likely, they were talking about the idea, that sexuality can, and often is usefull in advertising. There's "sex sells" in the literal sense - like people buying the soft porn videos sold on the web site advertised on the AGD billboard, which has been true for years.

However, to elaborate on what my professors taught, "beyond the simplistic "sex sells" statement....

It's not the sex that sells. The sex can draw attention to the ad... That however is a double edged sword. The sex can also distract from the ad's message, or offend the target audience away from the ad. Certainly without the ad's message, the sex in and of itself won't make the sale.

Again, a prime example... The Bruizer. The main focus of the NuLine advertising was women with large breasts in revealing clothes. If it's true that "sex sells" the large ads they took out that were based primarily on sexuality should have made the Bruizer a smashing success in terms of sales. You see Bruizers all over at your local fields don't you? And similarly, PMI advertised the Mokal Titan with full page ads with a woman in a ripped up t-shirt, and Titans sold incredibly well as a result, right? Wrong, because the sex didn't sell the product. All the sex could do was draw attention toward the ad. Unless it was backed up by a product that makes the customer happy, and a successful sales pitch in the ad, the sex alone does nothing.

Sex can and often is a component of a successful advertisement, but it's not the sex that makes the sale.

These are also prime examples of campaigns that were national (or even international) and failed to sell a product. Similarly, it is erroneous to look at any other national campaign for any other product, and say "see, they did this, so that proves it works." In order to know how well that ad "worked" you'd need sales numbers, from that, and other ad campaigns for the same product. What the existence of a national ad campaign means is that the decision making person or persons placing the ad were sold on the idea for the ad.

Another example of an internatonal campaign that didn't do well.... Ever seen the Dan Bonebrake Action Figure Ad? It was meant to use the action figure as an attention gaining device (much as many ads use sex to grab attention) but the action figure ended up grabbing the attention away from the "sell." It has generated a lot of responses from people wanting to buy the action figure, has drawn less attention to WARPIG that other ads. Just because it's unique or in a national campaign doesn't mean it works.

Regarding the letter to Debra Krishke, why? Even if her commitment to the "family" is as strong as you seem to suggest - how does that have any bearing on any of the other national events with their all-female paintball wrestling contests, WDPs "Angels" (complete with heaven) or any of the other goings on's like the cheating, cussing, temper tantrums (gun throwing, "bonus balls"), and everyday attendees walking around in various states of undress with a multitude of body piercings and tattoos?

The billboard being discussed is on a road leading to only one paintball event - the IAO, so what would the audience other event promoters have to do at all with the audience the IAO's producer is trying to develop for it?

Ask most people from down south or the mid-west about what they think of the "Diablo IAO" and those who participate in it, and you might get an eye opener with regard to main-stream (or should we say main-street?) acceptance to paintball.

Another interesting point, further reinforcing the idea that the marketing tactic of "being offensive" does drive away some customers. For the most part, Procaps recognized that some people would be put off by the Diablo brand name and imagery. Since then however, they have sold off the name, and now call their paint DraXxus - the Diablo IAO sponsorhip deal was set up prior to their name change.

My point is that like it or not, the sport is using tactics that are used to sell many other products successfully to the public, especially to adolescent and adult males - and you can't argue with proven success. I agree with your assessment on why AGD put up the sign, and think that (as it was stated a long time ago) "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

There definitely is such a thing as bad publicity.

If there were "no such thing as bad publicity" there would be no such things as public relations firms and consultants.

The publicity Jeffrey Dahmer received made the public aware of what he did, and very likely, people knowing what he did was the reason he was stabbed to death in a prison shower. If he had received no publicity, he would likely still be some anonymous joe sitting in a prison cell.

Following the publicity of the core overheating at the Three Mile Island nuclear reactor, no community in the US has allowed a new nuclear reactor for supplying public power to be built.

Bad publicity cost the Ford motor company big when the media got ahold of info about the Ford Pinto.

Bad publicity cost Richard Nixxon his presidency.

There is most definitely such a thing as bad publicity.

I'd also submit that "families" aren't necessary for paintball to survive. They are only required for the continual "reverse-aging" I mentioned before - that lines the pockets of promoters (on an increasing basis) by bringing younger and younger crowds (that mommy has to drop off in the mini-van) in.

Considering what has happened to the numbers of people buying paintball products since the "reverse aging" trend took hold, I would think most companies would really strive to reinforce that. If you're advocating that decreasing the customer base makes things better, then why advertise to increase customers? Isn't "lining the pockets" the whole point of advertising?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

sk8dood

07-29-2002, 04:20 PM

B3, XGames and any demos are 'kid' friendly events.
Obviously you havent been to any demos lately.

AGD

07-29-2002, 06:55 PM

Time for me to chime in here since Capo and Debra Dion have been mentioned. As most of you know I am not one to go for controversy. I do look around and see what works for others because I really don't want to learn from my own mistakes.

Almost all of the people that saw the prototype billboard laughed. This was both young and old. This to me was an important factor in determining which billboard design to go with. Billboards are only there for a few seconds and you have to bang the idea into their heads. This billboard seemed to have that characteristic over the others.

I want everyone to know that BEFORE we decided to go with the billboard I showed it to Debbie and asked her opinion. Both her and her husband Ryan were ok with it. They thought it was just the right amount of edgy and was on the same plane as an add they were going to run in the local theaters. Debbie and Ryan have a teenage daughter so they are representative of the parent crowd.

I also showed it to another mother who owns a paintball store and she laughed and thought it was great. At no time did any of the older people I showed it to express any missgivings about the style of add.

Needless to say I was shocked when the billboard company refused to accept the artwork. It turns out they were not against the partly naked woman but the tiny lettering on the bottom reffering to mancows site. They said the site was over the top and they couldn't advertise it. Situation resolved with the removal of the tiny lettering.

When you are on the top of the ladder you can afford to be conservative in your advertising approach. Angel continues this way with only a minimum of neutral advertising in a few magazines. Being the underdogs we have to scream to get noticed and that's what we are doing with the Mancow stunt and the billboard. Certainly once we do get noticed we can change the tactics.

I think AO has a problem with all this because the forum does not see us as underdogs and it doesn't make sense to people here that we should go to these lengths. As far as Capo is concerned she is one of us. She is someone you get to know and respect for her personallity and playing skills. To put her half naked on a billboard would present her in a completly different light that we don't need to do with family. I do plan on having her in posters and she will be sexy as we can make her but still clothed. The Capo Fan Club is going in the right direction. This is why Capo is going to Am Open and not the billboard girl.

If the tournamnet has this much discussion about the billboard it will have done it's job.

AGD

irbodden

07-29-2002, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by sk8dood

Obviously you havent been to any demos lately.

Went to a Razor demo last fall, even chilled with the guys for alittle while after. They were personal friends with one of my buddie's sister and boyfriend who we all hung out with.

So stop trying to act cool. :rolleyes:

shartley

07-29-2002, 07:27 PM

Tom-
I can see your point, but I have to respectfully disagree. I have ALSO talked to Women in Paintball and who were mothers as well and they did NOT find it appropriate.

It is no wonder if you hang around a certain crowd that members of that crowd may tend to agree on things. This is not saying it is bad to do so, we are all entitled to our opinions and views, but it is clear that the limited people contacted on this matter seemed to not only have some ties to each other, but also share the same values and opinions.

The reason I say this is that you make it seem like noone had a problem with it, and I find that odd because I don’t know any random group that would find ANYTHING perfect.. but yours seemed to. Also, to say your friends were representative of the parent crowd? Come on Tom, for someone who stresses stats, figures, etc. you should know that your “cross section” was an indication of nothing. Well, it was an indication of what your friends and associates thought. And they just happened to be parents, but I can assure you that parents here on AO have already stated how they felt.. and it was not what your “representative of parents” felt.

And how do we usually pick our friends and associates? They tend to share the same beliefs, values, and opinions as we do… for the most part. But I have already said that haven’t I? LOL

I would also like to say that saying those on Top can afford to be conservative… are you serious? If that was the case, wouldn’t Angel have conservative Ads? To run smut is a choice, no matter what position you are in. And I for one don’t accept that excuse…. It also goes against everything AGD has ever stood for. You DO have a coat of arms as your logo, right? ;)

You also seem to think AO thinks we are NOT underdogs? Do you even read your own forums? I don’t think ANYONE thinks AGD is not playing catch up. Please don’t confuse AO members thinking you make the best markers on the market as them thinking you SELL the most. I don’t think anyone is under that illusion.

I think what you don’t realize is that YES you will get people talking, but talking is not enough. What they will be saying is more important. And it seems as if you just don’t care what they say, as long as they say something. Simply put, as Bill and I (and others) have stated, there IS such a thing as bad press. And take the fact that you then say that once you get noticed you can change how you market…. What? You honestly think they will go from, “AGD is peddling smut” to “AGD sells classy high end and reliable markers.”? Talk about switching gears….

Not to mention that this goes against EVERYTHING AGD has ever stood for in the past.

Hey, it is your business….. but what you responded with just does not say much at all. But those who support the Billboard will think it does, oh well. Again, great markers Tom, but this decision is a bad one in my opinion. I just don’t think you are truly open to any opinions other than your own on this matter, and were set on doing it from the moment you saw the first graphic. It did not matter what anyone said, no matter how much sense they made. As long as you get people close to you telling you they agree with it, all the other voices don’t matter. So much for objectivity.

Personally I would have preferred you just say “I did it because I wanted to.” And left it at that.

(Note: I don’t expect any FLAMES on this post from other members. I was not insulting, nor rude.)

Miscue

07-29-2002, 07:40 PM

WDP Love Juice
<IMG SRC="http://www.warpedsportz.com/warped/800/Paintball/Airsystems/Accessories/3lovejuiceWHI.jpg">

<IMG SRC="http://store6.yimg.com/I/kapp_1698_5427094">

<IMG SRC="http://store6.yimg.com/I/kapp_1698_5370527">

<IMG SRC="http://www.smartparts.com/FFcover6.jpg">

<IMG SRC="http://www.smartparts.com/FFcover1.jpg">

<IMG SRC="http://gallery.paintballcity.com/data/22890mardi_chicks2.jpg">

irbodden

07-29-2002, 08:11 PM

Are those on billboards? :rolleyes:

than205

07-29-2002, 08:15 PM

Personally, I find it confusing to have a "family" forum and a billboard like that.
I've said it before and I'll say again. I thought and loved that AGD was above the "sex sells" mentality.

I like a wee bit o'smut, but that has it's context. I play a sport which I love, and I use a marker which I love.
I want AGD to come out on top without having to use the lowest common denominator.
Sure shake things up. Do it the way you've always done it through innovation. I think level 10 has more carrying power than we all recognize. There are so many things that you have shown us that are on the prototype table.
I think AGD's time is now.
I wish this could all be done with class.

MikeCouves

07-29-2002, 08:26 PM

Horny yes, impressed? Not really. I like the way paintball is compared to other sports/extreme sports. In skateboarding magazines there is alot of swearing and alot of unneeded content, and before I played paintball, I wouldn't have even noticed. It disappoints me to see the skateboarding magazines not editing this stuff out! I was reading my first PGI a couple days ago because you can't get them where I live, and I was on vacation. I was utterly shocked to see the swearing and phrases. Even if it was censored, it did not look good at all. I personally like the Kingman or whatever it is in the other picture. Although the AGD one does have a little comical sense to it, I don't like the sex sells theme. It disappoints alot of the more mature players that don't find it that funny.

On the other side, she is pretty hot for a paintball model. Most of em are nasty like the ACI one...*shudders*.

Muzikman

07-29-2002, 09:19 PM

Than205 brings up a REALLY good point. This is a PG-13 forum, where I can't even say the word A$$ without being warned about it. Then AGD turns around and runs that billboard. I mean come on, is this not a double standard? If you make the arguement that there is worse in a PG-13 movies then you are right, but they also use some pretty nasty language in them to.

I rememeber once someone said that they wanted this forum to be something that parents would not mind if their little kids got on and read? Well I want the billboards to be something that the parents wouldn't mind if the little kids see it while driving down the road.

billmi

07-29-2002, 10:42 PM

The post above addresses the double standard issue - see the reference to "family."

tremis

07-30-2002, 01:17 AM

Gee, I lose internet access for a bit and look what happens.

There have been a number of good points brought up. I don't mind the ad. My daughters aren't old enough to care. (2 and 5) Of course, if it wasn't for the Push video, they would have no idea what happens when daddy goes to play paintball. Nor will they for a long time. I never felt like this was a sport for children. Somebody mentioned Shartley making teenagers look stupid or something to that effect. My take on that,... teenagers are stupid. Now I'm gonna get a bunch of teenagers swearing that they are not stupid, but I said the same thing when I was one too. Now I say "boy was I stupid".
On a related note there has been some folks treating Shartley with less respect than he deserves. I'm saying this should stop. On this particular subject, I don't agree with Shartley nor did I when I first ran into him here. But I have NEVER seen him be remotly unapropriate in the manner in which he disagrees with us.( or when he does agree with us for that matter).

I think cledford hit the nail on the head when he talked about who this is aimed at. The indusrty as a whole doesn't seem to care a whole lot about Classy family type players regardless of what Debra wants. There is this huge financial boom going on in the other 'alternative' sports. Not so in Golf, Tennis or Polo. They want in on that action and paintball will fit in that culture a lot easier than it will fit in with the classy doctor/lawyer culture.

The one thing that actually has a point that I'll add is this. If the kid that doesn't want the mag to begin with (and face it most don't) sees an ad like this and maybe wants to look into it and now can't because his Mom is offended, whats the loss? Sure The mom was driven away, but neither her nor the kid were a potential customer to begin with. He wanted an Angel or a Timmey. That's whats kool.( or at least what his friends told him and they are the biggest influence on him in this case) Now in a year or two when the kid isn't in school and is going to buy his own stuff, he still has a favorable image of AGD, even if his mom doesn't. Of course thats just one other way to look at it.

One last thing, I can't believe that the Thordic fan club actually has multiple members.

Tremis

squidboy69

07-30-2002, 01:31 AM

I have to agree with shartley on the AGD reply. It does seem a little lop sided to gauge the response of a) a paintball event promoter, and b) a paintball store owner... irregardless of how many and how old their kids are. I mean they already play paintball, it's not like they'll stop because some tart has her ta-ta's on some billboard in Pittsburgh. Really, it's not just the people already playing that we are trying to reach.

It would seem to me, that based on some of Tom's other posts that he realizes that warp was not the breakthrough he was looking for with *current* tournament players. Why flog it do a jaded demographic, I would think that warp ads would be more effective aimed at new players without these preconcieved notions about their markers. Tom's "test market" knows paintball, sure they'll find it funny.

I know I'm not a big, important, 4 digit post count member here, but I really thought that AGD's technical merit were well above this level. I saw how Tom cared about his 'family' here, and the superiority of his products, and to be honest it was infectious. I dusted off my 'mag, I bought my LX kit, pre-ordered my C&C extreme, and talked up 'mags at my local store. Now I'm just flogging the same drek as every other mfg. out there. A flashy gun with a chick behind it.

I don't recall ever being this offended by any Worr Games ads when I shot a cocker... how many units do they sell?

Miscue

07-30-2002, 04:55 AM

If that billboard bothers you... you outta see all the hoochi mama 'gentlemen club' billboards plastered all over Vegas, adult mag news stands all over, nudie leaflets all over the ground depending on where you go... a dozen naked girls except for a dental floss thong on every other taxi cab. A huge adult super store I pass by everyday going to and from school... with a big text sign that tells you about the stuff they stock... It's a wonder how any of us in Vegas can go on with our day-to-day lives... :)

I see this billboard and don't see what the problem is. You can see more skin looking through the lingerie section of the Sears catalog. Take a look! I'm not kidding!

When there's some girl in a thong with her legs over her head and her tongue on a DYE Boomstick with a milk moustache for endorsing increased calcium consumption or something... then ya... I can see a problem.

This billboard is clean and playful... I like it.

You think 14-25 year old guys (approx target audience) will find it offensive? OMG!! My eyes! It's a skantily clad girl! Yeah right... just take a look under their mattresses and see what 'treasures' are hidden.

shartley

07-30-2002, 06:10 AM

Time and place.

Las Vegas is not in Penn. ;) I think manike said it well… if in Europe it would also not be such a big deal… but it is not in Europe. Same with Las Vegas.

Lingerie? The comparison of lingerie, swimsuits, etc. to that billboard just does not make sense. When you see lingerie in the Sears Catalog, or in a Victoria’s Secret poster, or wherever, that is the product being SOLD. The same with smut shops. I guess AGD is now selling smut? I thought they were selling Paintball Equipment.

I also find Porn Magazines perfectly acceptable. I however do not find them perfectly acceptable on my coffee table, or if they were in a Dr.’s Reception Area. Same with the Ads in them… I don’t find them inappropriate one bit when in the Porn Magazine, but I WOULD if they were in my Morning Paper or Business Publication. I am not a prude, I just know what is appropriate and what is not, and know when and when not as well.

And as for what “treasures” you may find under a teenager’s bed…. This may very well be true, however, does that mean you should advocate it? How about this? You may also find a bag of marijuana as well, so why not just roll him/her a joint with it? Or why not just go out and get him/her a good rock of crack, syringe, spoon and lighter? Being a responsible adult seems to suddenly change when you have children, and you can almost always tell those with, and those without by their views on many topics. ;) And I laugh each time a new young person joins the ranks of parenthood and suddenly their views change…. But they would have sworn it would never happen. :D

I have no problem with people liking that billboard. That is their personal choice and opinion. My point has always been if it was appropriate, had any class, and would generate positive feedback toward AGD. I think it is clear that I believe it is not, has none, and will not. As a Poster that a person could choose to purchase and place on their own wall, sure… NO problem. But as a billboard open to the general public, no.

However, it has already been done. We will now have to sit back and see how it goes. You also have to keep in mind that those who dislike it are NOT apt to come running to AO or their local shop and say so… they will just not purchase the products, or at a minimum lose respect for AGD. Far too often I have seen clambering minorities seem like the actual reaction to things… but then after closer observation notice that the majority actually feels the total opposite, they are just quiet about it…..

On the point about paintball not being for kids. You know, I had this same discussion on Sunday. Take 10 years ago and the amount of kids you saw on the fields. Now take YESTERDAY. WOW, I would say a good half to over half of the people there were 13-18, and I can tell you that the place had a LOT of people. And the proportions were not abnormal. Now those playing in the higher Tournaments may be older, but to discount children and women as a large and growing part of paintball is in my opinion a huge mistake.

Also the sports that get families and youth involved tend to do better in the long run. Look at any successful sport or activity and most likely you will find people actively promoting it to young folk and families. And the reasons for this are obvious.

(Those other comments from folks… Thank you.)

Thordic

07-30-2002, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by tremis

One last thing, I can't believe that the Thordic fan club actually has multiple members.

I was quite surprised as well, it was supposed to be a joke :)

MagDog68

07-30-2002, 08:00 AM

I joined the Thordic Fan Club because he has been a productive AO member long before most of the "Popular" people here knew about the site.

I am pleased to be the first member of the Thordic Fan Club - I don't think I like your implication that it is a bad thing.

~Fred

MagDog68

07-30-2002, 08:02 AM

Am I the only one who thinks this is a great ad that is just posted in the wrong place?

~Fred

shartley

07-30-2002, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by MagDog68
Am I the only one who thinks this is a great ad that is just posted in the wrong place?

~Fred
Ahhh Now there you may have something! If it was in Maxim, or any of the other magazines that have similar things, I am sure it would not be as much of a problem. (Reference my latest post.) I know I would still not be impressed with it, but I would not have such a problem with it either.

MUST HAVE COFFEE!!!!! (stop thoughts and post… get coffee…. )

MagDog68

07-30-2002, 08:38 AM

This ad would be great in Maxim! One of those eye catchers and when you turn the page all will be explained - and the model will be wearing pasties - LOL. Something anticlimactic has to happen. maybe she has a hairy chest or something. Who knows?

~Fred

MagDog68

07-30-2002, 08:46 AM

Miscue, you can't use those pictures in this argument - you are comparing apples and oranges. KAPP can use those images in Paintball Publications or a Men's magazine like Stuff or FHM, but it dare not put it on a billboard near a major highway.

I am not in any way shape or form a conservative or holy roller here - I don't want anyone to get the idea that I dislike the ad. As a matter of fact I love it! But I would also be embarrassed to walk down the street with my mother and point out the AGD logo on that billboard.

My point is that there is a time and place for everything and that billboard is not the place to display AGD alongside a half naked woman.

~Fred

bofh

07-30-2002, 08:51 AM

Is it just me, or does anybody else find it odd that in Bulter County, PA, both IAO and Pennsic are going on in the same week?

http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn31/

It's a shame I'm not going to either this year.

Thordic

07-30-2002, 09:08 AM

SCA people scare me...

alkafluence

07-30-2002, 09:17 AM

This whole issue has been a bit disconcerting...

Okay, I'm 22, a recent college grad and I was in a fraternity. Do we want to say target audience here? But I find this off base and completely against the very image that AGD has maintained for all these years.

My first marker was a Tippman, I loved that marker because you could throw it off the Sears Tower and it would still function; but eventually my playing style demanded a more capable marker as I started playing in some tournaments and things other than just rec-ball. At this point I was about 15-16, and I started doing some research into some of my different options. And guess what? I bought a mag (that I still have to this day) because of its "solid reputation" and especially because of it's stellar performance.

At the time, my parents were extremely questioning of my purchase because that is alot of money (Yes! It was my money from a job I worked 30 hours a week at.) to spend on a paintball marker when you're that age. [Remember there were no Timmy's, Impulses, or 1k+ Angels back then] If my mother would have seen a billboard like this before I had made my purchase and made the connection between them, you can sure bet that I would not have been able to get that mag even though it was my money.

People can argue for or against the merits of "sex selling" all day long until they are blue in the face. But, the truth of it is, it has to be in the right place [If you want to market this way, it should be in Maxim or FHM, etc. I'm sure any PR agent or marketing rep will tell you this] On the other hand - a huge billboard in the middle of Pennsylvania is NOT the place. Consider how many people might or will be in the same position I was back when I was younger.

This has seriously made me reconsider my opinions of and position regarding AGD. Tom, I seriously hope you will reconsider on doing this type of thing in the future.

Now that I've finished, what has probably been my longest post on AO to date, I will return to my job and revitalize my brain with my morning coffee.

cledford

07-30-2002, 10:56 AM

I couldn't resist :) I logged onto WarPig to read Bill's review of the Angel Air and saw a link to an article regarding a Punk music concert at the IAO. I kinda thought it might add to the debate about whether paintball events are family oriented or not. I'm not necessarily saying that Punk music would for sure promote an "un-family" like atmosphere - but I'd bet a quick search for lyrics might produce some things that many parents might take much more issue with then a racy bill-board ad.

Here's the quote:

"According to Wretched 7’s Ciesiun, music is a driving force to bring extreme sports in front of mainstream audiences. “Establishing the connection between paintball and music is crucial, I feel, toward the development of paintball as a core extreme sport. That said, this concert just makes sense. Why not bring in some of the hottest pop punk bands to support an event like the IAO? We need to establish to the general public an image that paintball is an extreme sport, making this connection is simplified through music.”

The artical can be found http://www.warpig.com/paintball/articles/news/072302_IAOconcert.shtml

Sorry Bill, I'm not trying to attack you - but I just don't see how extreme sporting can be two things at once - extreme and family oriented.

I'll be at the IAO and will reserve opinion of the matter until I here the music - but if it's anything like the Punk I'm familiar with, it wouldn't be considered a feature presentation at a family event. How many Punk bands play at amusment parks?

-Calvin

billmi

07-30-2002, 04:34 PM

Cledford,

I didn't take your posting as a personal attack at all, nor should anything I've written here been construed as a personal attack on anyone. I'm talking about pros and cons of methods of marketing.

As for the punk music and the IAO... if you're not following that scene, the phrase "punk" may be making you think of stuff from the 80s (Dead Kennedy's, PiL, Skinny Puppy, etc.). Up until a few years ago, that's what I pictured in my mind when I throught of punk - Johnny Rotten looking pretty scraggy and being pretty sleazy on stage when I saw him opening for INXS in '87. The look and sound of punk and emo these days is pretty different, and not at all necessarily (though like music in general, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't) at conflict with a "family audience." My eyes were oppened when Jim Stiffy (a pb player from Penn) handed me a demo CD from a punk label he was helping to promote. It had songs from Allister, New Found Glory (their from the Screen To Your Stereo CD is SWEET) Midtown and others. There are even punk bands like MXPX, Relient K, etc. that get airplay on the Christian radio charts - it's certainly not "anti-family" type music if anything could be called that, but modern punk music is being tied in with a lot of extreme sports these days.

Take a listen to Mest and Midtown, and The Reunion Show (the bands playing at that concert). Check the Mardi Gras Open 2001 episode of PigTV - the song in the music montage is from Midtown.

And of course, even if this concert were a group like PiL, that were not so "family friendly," it's a connected event, with a separate price tag, and separate crowd from the tournament (the gates don't even open until after the tournament and trade show are closing up for the night), this music won't be blasting at the tournament attendies (families or otherwise) unless they happen to also be concert attendees.

Much on your lines of thinking about the whole "Extreme" image, I wondered the directions things would go when it was announced that there would be an "Extreme" tent.

After I saw it, I thought it a dichotomy. They had the main vendor tent, and the "Extreme" tent. The "extreme" tent had paintball companies, a DJ, side show acts (an escape artist and blockhead - he'd tap nails into his nose), and even a body piercer. The main vendor tent had typical paintball booths. I saw a lot of families walking through both tents. The side-show acts and body piercer (this doesn't mean people were getting naked to get pierced - he was piercing ears, tongues, etc.) had people pointing, and watching with their families. Yes, families also walked through the vendor's tent as well, but it's the main vendor's tent that housed the Wicked Impulse Wet-T shirt contest that led to the two families I saw leaving.

Extreme doesn't mean extrmely offensive.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

1stdeadeye

07-30-2002, 07:32 PM

My God!
Aren't we all getting a little too worked up over 1 billboard outside some little town in western PA. What do like 5 people live there? I know the IAO is a big deal in the Paintball World, but how many of the general public are actually going to see it? Whether you like the ad or don't, who is really seeing it? It's not like it is on the Jersey Turnpike by the GW Bridge where millions and millions pass by daily.
As a matter of fact, how many in the paintball world actually are going to this event? 1,000? 3,000? 5,000?
I am more disappointed in the fact that I think that this is poor judgement on how to spend AGD's advertising dollars. Open up any paintball magazine, and you will see it filled with WDP, WGP, Tippman, and Spyder ads. Why do you think so many people play with spyders? It sure isn't the quality!! Ha, ha, ha. I would like to see more exposure where it will actually do some good. If this billboard is a hit, how many more markers does it sell? Great, Tom can corner the Western PA market! Spend the money in more targeted venues! I can understand not wanting to make a mistake and playing catch-up, but look at what your competitiors are doing. How many billboards do the other companies have combined?

P.S. As for the ad, it is nothing special. I am not offended by it, nor drawn by it. I don't find it very original though. Check out WGP's current campaign for the Autococker-"You Da Man"! Pretty simple and catchy.

Anyhow these are just my two cents.

wimag

07-30-2002, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by shartley
Come on Tom, for someone who stresses stats, figures, etc. you should know that your “cross section” was an indication of nothing. Well, it was an indication of what your friends and associates thought. And they just happened to be parents, but I can assure you that parents here on AO have already stated how they felt.. and it was not what your “representative of parents” felt.

please do not be so quick to express how you think i may feel. I can assure you i have no problem with the ad. I like the ad. Yes i am a parent with two children.

cledford

07-30-2002, 09:20 PM

Bill,

Thanks for the open debate. I appreciate the frank and well thought responses - and did not take offense to any of your posts either. I was a bit concerned about trading differing viewpoints with a paintball icon, so am glad that it all was taken in stride. This issue obviously has created strong opinions about several different areas related to it and appreciate the fact that 1) we can enjoy open debate, and 2) Tom has provided us a place to do so.

I look forward to meeting you in PA. We're planning an AO dinner Sunday the 4th, will you be around?

-Calvin

billmi

07-30-2002, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
My God!
Aren't we all getting a little too worked up over 1 billboard outside some little town in western PA.

Oh, you're so right, we've gotten so worked up and out of hand! AGD has put up a billboard and we've taken the outrageous, outlandish and excessive action of using a discussion forum to..... discuss it! Next thing you know someone will chat about it in a chat room, or talk about it on a telephone!

[end sarcasm]

The point of the ad is to try and generate this sort of discussion.

[b]
As a matter of fact, how many in the paintball world actually are going to this event? 1,000? 3,000? 5,000?
I am more disappointed in the fact that I think that this is poor judgement on how to spend AGD's advertising dollars. Open up any paintball magazine, and you will see it filled with WDP, WGP, Tippman, and Spyder ads. Why do you think so many people play with spyders? It sure isn't the quality!!

Well, I'm sure if the E-Mag were available at the same price as a Spyder you'd see more E-Mags out there, that probably has something to do with it too, I just don't think that's something that is in economic reality.

You need to consider with the IAO marketing audience though, that it's not just how ever many thousands of players attending. The IAO has by far the best attendance of store owners of any event in paintball. For manufacturers and distributors it's a good place to attend, advertise and make an impression. A player buys one paintgun, but a dealer will by several, or tens, or even hundreds if they are big enough. Making a dealer into a "convert" is very powerful, because they then go out and make their customers into "converts."

Wimag,
Maybe you're seeing something in Shartly's post that I didn't. He said that parents on AO had expressed feelings about the billboard different than the parents Tom had spoken to. He didn't say all parents on AO felt that way, only that some who did spoke up about it.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

wimag

07-30-2002, 09:55 PM

Bill, i am rather comftorable in what i wrote earlier.
He assured Tom that parents on AO did not represent what Mr. Kayes "cross section" felt.
Like i said earlier i have no problem with the ad. I support AGD in what they did.
My original reply was no way to be interpreted as any type of attack, but rather as support to AGD.

billmi

07-30-2002, 10:34 PM

Wimag,
What Shartly said was "I can assure you that parents here on AO have already stated how they felt.. and it was not what your “representative of parents” felt."

Since you don't have a problem with the billboard, you are not one of the parents on AO that Shartly was talking about. Shartly himself is an example of an AO member and parent who stated a disagreement with the ad.

Shartly did not say that all parents who are AO members (i.e. a group that includes you) feel one way or another. No where in the segment of text you quoted, did Shartly make a statement about how you feel.

That is why your post did not make sense to me. It's good that you are comfortable with what you said. I'm comfortable with the fact that you said it, what I don't understand is why you said it. If Shartly had said something like "The parents of AO disagree with your representative parents," then what you said would make sense to me, but considering what Shartly said, it doesn't.

Cledford,
No, unfortunately, I booked my airfare before the tech training was announced, so I won't be there in time for the dinner. I'm sure we'll be able to meet at some point before the week is over though. It's OK to have a differing viewpoint from me :-) I have a different viewpoint from Tom on this and I think he's way more of a paintball icon than I am. I think it's pretty cool that he's hosting a discussion forum and allowing and considering viewpoints other than his own.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

1stdeadeye

07-31-2002, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by billmi

Well, I'm sure if the E-Mag were available at the same price as a Spyder you'd see more E-Mags out there, that probably has something to do with it too, I just don't think that's something that is in economic reality.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Bill,
I understand your point. Perhaps I should have used Angels as better example. They are indeed in the same price range as the Emag. Yet on all of the local fields, I may see 2 Emags all day (One being my buddy RKEZ10), while we will see 20+ Angels. I know that your point about reaching dealers is valid, but don't you think they read the trade magazines too? Hell, most of them are published by them. So I am still convinved the money would have been better spent in publishing ads then in billboards. Plus Tom could have produced a whole series of these ads giving us so much more to chat about.

P.S. Bill, you're right. There are more then five people living out there, I hear it's like 10!:D

P.P.S. I thought my previous post was funny.:(

shartley

07-31-2002, 06:25 AM

Thank you Bill, that is exactly what, and how, I said it. I was not speaking for ALL AO Parents, but pointing out that there were indeed parents on AO that did not find the Ad appropriate.

wimag
I am sorry if you felt I was talking for you, but as Bill just posted and I have confirmed, I was not.

On another note… if you want to use a Quote from me in your Signature, please use it in its full context and how it was actually written. As you have it now (taken way out of context, truncated, etc.) it does not actually say what I said or how I was saying it. It does not express the way I really feel about things.

Please feel free to reference your signature and bounce it off of what was really said:

Again, I am sick and tired of people wanting to correct ME, bash ME, scold ME, tell ME what they think, and then NOT expect the same from me, but say it in reverse. If someone finds offense in MY posts they come out and say it. But I am not allowed the same? If someone thinks I am out of line, they come out and say it.... but I am not allowed the same? But then you try to parrot these things back to me?
As you can clearly see, they mean quite a bit different things. Please either correct this, or remove it from your Signature.

Thank you.

billmi

07-31-2002, 03:48 PM

1stdeadeye,

10 people? Be realistic there's at least a dozen :-)

Looking at WDP though they don't do nearly the print advertising that Kingman and Tippmann do (or if they do it hasn't stood out to me, I've not done an actual ad count to compare). It's my impression (read as next best thing I have to an analysys of their marketing :-) that more of their marketing efforts go into presentation of themselves at events (large booths, hosting "Heaven" parties, etc.) and on sponsorships to make sure many of the top teams are shooting their products, appearing with their products in magazines and impressing the teams below them.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

wimag

07-31-2002, 05:22 PM

Bill, Ahhhhhhh now i see it. Hey 12 hours of work and a twelver of coke and i see it differently. Oh well, wasnt like i was making a federal case out of it.;)
I will keep it simple next time and just respond to Mr. Kaye rather than go through the hassle

hitech

07-31-2002, 07:09 PM

I am an AO parent. If I were going to this event the billboard WOULD be a problem. If the NPPL tournament in LA is normal, I probably wouldn't take my wife and children to such an event. If I did, I would normally explain how AGD (the company I stand behind) is different. THAT billboard would make that a very hard sell. I can hear my wife now, so THAT is why you want to come to these things! :( As i saw it, the NPPL in LA was NOT a family event.

The AGD billboard does NOT belong at, or in association with, a family event.

Jezus

07-31-2002, 08:23 PM

Most of us here are adults and as adults you should be more mature about the issue. Its just a girl without her shirt on. So what, if she had a bra on would it make a bigger difference :confused:

I mean its skin, all skin is hte same just some is curved differently :p

AGD Isnt really using sex to sell there markers, its a build board to attract attention. I mean common 95% of all players in this sport are men lets face it.. Im not trying to start a flame war of men against the women but its the truth. not a lot of girls play and AGD realizes this. I have no problem with the build board what so ever. It looks great to me.

shartley

07-31-2002, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Jezus
Most of us here are adults and as adults you should be more mature about the issue. Its just a girl without her shirt on. So what, if she had a bra on would it make a bigger difference :confused:

I mean its skin, all skin is hte same just some is curved differently :p

AGD Isnt really using sex to sell there markers, its a build board to attract attention. I mean common 95% of all players in this sport are men lets face it.. Im not trying to start a flame war of men against the women but its the truth. not a lot of girls play and AGD realizes this. I have no problem with the build board what so ever. It looks great to me.
When did not thinking something was appropriate make anyone less mature?

AGD has always tried to maintain a Woman Friendly stance (to my knowledge) and Family Friendly stance (look at AO). But suddenly we toss out that Women don’t make up the majority of players, so who cares what they think? And kids and families don’t matter? Then why do we always state that this AGD owned Forum should be presentable for all ages and sexes and a guideline is that if you would not be ashamed to have your Grandmother read your post it is within AO (hence AGD) standards?

We have often had discussions on getting MORE women into the sport, but when that means we have to show just a tad bit of class in a public place, forget it?

I thought people AO and AGD were about advancing the sport. It is okay to talk about wanting women and families in the sport as long as you don’t have to put your money where you mouth is?

This issue is not whether someone LIKES the billboard or not, but if it is APPROPRIATE for the time and place. And I don’t recall anyone who thinks it isn’t calling those who say it IS any names, or that they are less mature because they can’t think with anything but their genitalia. (Note: I am NOT saying that, but it would be the opposite argument for Jezus’ comments.)

As for the skin argument…. Why not try that argument by walking down the street of your home town naked, except for a pair of socks. Hey, it is just skin, right?

And as for it NOT using sex to sell their markers… you are correct, it is an Ad for the Warp Feed. As for it being a billboard to attract attention… ahhh that it is. It is the type of attention that we are debating, not that it will or will not GET attention.

I was actually going to stay out of this because most everything has already been said, but personally, it bothers me that any insulting or belittling remarks seem to be going on one direction in this discussion (note: Not by all, but by some.). I have things that I find perfectly acceptable for me, but would NOT want my children seeing them. I think this is where some of us part ways, and are confusing issues. Think I don’t LIKE naked women? LOL You are right! I LOVE naked women! :D But I don’t think it is appropriate to put them in a public place open to all ages and sexes. (Except of course in a Red Light District)

So please, if anyone else wants to make further comments, may I suggest they leave out any insults, belittling remarks, etc. and stick to the actual issue… We are not all going to agree on everything, but we can think about how we express that.

1stdeadeye

08-01-2002, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by billmi
1stdeadeye,

10 people? Be realistic there's at least a dozen :-)

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

WOW,
There are that many now? I better get out there and option some land for developement. Yee Haw, I'm gonna get rich off of this one!!!!:D

beam

08-01-2002, 09:43 AM

I can't believe I missed this one. I only read the first 2.5 pages of posts, and then decided that I had to chime in with my opinion.

2 Thumbs down...AGD took the "low road".

And as a side note about maturity...I think that restraint shows a LOT of maturity. How much maturity does it take to "give in" to peer pressure? That is actually a sign of immaturity. AGD displayed corporate immaturity by giving into the "sex sells" pressure.

MagDog68

08-01-2002, 11:53 AM

Damnit Bill - his name is SHartlEy!
:D
~Fred

AGD

08-01-2002, 11:57 AM

You guys are also not remembering that the billboard was second runner up in the design contest. This controversy is good though I am constantly reading it.

AGD

MagDog68

08-01-2002, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by AGD
You guys are also not remembering that the billboard was second runner up in the design contest. This controversy is good though I am constantly reading it.

AGD

Tom - I don't think many of us are denying the ad is cool. I love it, however it's placement in a public area where people don't have the choice to look at it or not was bad judgment.

In a paintball Magazine it would be great, but in a public place conservative would be better. There is no reason to portray a smutty image to people who don't have any interest in paintball or worse yet, dislike it all together.

How about we just put up a big sign that says "Donut Orgy Inside" with the AGD logo? I bet you will get more customers from that billboard!

~Fred

beam

08-01-2002, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by MagDog68

Tom - I don't think many of us are denying the ad is cool.

COOL!?!?!

Dog gone it...this just ticks me off! Everyone keeps saying, "Sex sells", "You gotta realize, sex sells.", "Hey, don't you realize that sex sells?!?! AND IT'S COOL!"

It just ticks me off. NO ONE has asked, "SHOULD sex sell?" I have two daughters, 5 and 3. Am I gonna tell them when they are older..."Oh, it's ok sweety that Timmy doesn't like you, just take your shirt off. That will work because sweety, SEX SELLS." What the freak?!?!?! Now I know that a bunch of you are gonna be all over that analogy, but tough cookies...history has shown that WHAT ONE GENERATION DOES, THE NEXT WILL DO IN EXCESS!

The last thing I want my boys(7 and 10mos) to develop is a total lack of respect for women. In my opinion, women should be honored, not put up as pieces of meat used to sell...what...PAINTBALL EQUIPMENT?!?!?! AAAAAH. I can't take it anymore!

To stay on track with the topic, AGD's billboard (I just deleted a long rant about our sex crazed media), I think something that would have been REALLY cool, would have been if AGD made fun of how ads always use sex/sexuality to sell products. We could've used our brains to come up with something really witty, and intellectually sarcastic. Instead, we got a topless woman. hmmmmm :(

hitech

08-01-2002, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by AGD
You guys are also not remembering that the billboard was second runner up in the design contest.

I'm missing what difference that makes. :confused: If I were going to this event that billboard would possibly keep me from bringing my wife and children. At a minimum it would eliminate the "But honey, AGD is DIFFERENT!" argument. ;)

Patron God of Pirates

08-01-2002, 02:01 PM

I take offense to the notion that respecting women and appreciating attractiveness is somehow mutually exclusive.

Does this mean I have to date ugly girls? Because I cannot respect good looking ones?

I just don't see the connection between sexuality and immorality. If you raise your daughters to respect themselves then you won't halve to worry about men that don't respect them because they won't put up with it. Raise your sons to respect women and they will see that billboard for what it is, a clever joke.

It is not AGD's or any other companies responsibility to raise our children. I treat all people with respect, and I like naked girls too!

That billboard is not smut, it's not even borderline. Is it the classiest billboard around, not even close. But to call it smut is a massive exaggeration. In order for me to loose respect for AGD over it, I would have to buy into the concept that sex in marketing is the "lowest common denominator". I don't, because it's not.

In paintball terms, the "lowest common denominator" is lieing to sell your products. "Further and more accurately", "State of the Art", "Easy on paint because it's low pressure", etc.

I have tried to stay Swiss on this issue up until now. I just think there are much more important things to get our panties in a wad over.

irbodden

08-01-2002, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates
I take offense to the notion that respecting women and appreciating attractiveness is somehow mutually exclusive.

Does this mean I have to date ugly girls? Because I cannot respect good looking ones?

I just don't see the connection between sexuality and immorality. If you raise your daughters to respect themselves then you won't halve to worry about men that don't respect them because they won't put up with it. Raise your sons to respect women and they will see that billboard for what it is, a clever joke.

It is not AGD's or any other companies responsibility to raise our children. I treat all people with respect, and I like naked girls too!

That billboard is not smut, it's not even borderline. Is it the classiest billboard around, not even close. But to call it smut is a massive exaggeration. In order for me to loose respect for AGD over it, I would have to buy into the concept that sex in marketing is the "lowest common denominator". I don't, because it's not.

In paintball terms, the "lowest common denominator" is lieing to sell your products. "Further and more accurately", "State of the Art", "Easy on paint because it's low pressure", etc.

I have tried to stay Swiss on this issue up until now. I just think there are much more important things to get our panties in a wad over.

You can like naked women, nothing wrong with that. But the billboard isn't your personal porno stash from Kazza, its an ad for a company. That OTHER people also are subjected to.

Do you think parents bringing their kids to IAO are going to find it "a clever joke"? (Don't tell me familys aren't going, I know atleast 3 teams filled with young-guners making a family vacation out of IAO.) Do you think women will find it "a clever joke"?

If you had a model fully clothed, with a cute little smile, THAT would be "appreciating attractiveness".

Instead, the billboard has a topless lady on it, that is "appreciating attractiveness"? Is that classy advertising? No, its not.

If its not classy, what is it?

SMUT!

-RS

Patron God of Pirates

08-01-2002, 02:36 PM

Wow..... That is a wide spectrum of possibilities there.

Classy <-> Smut

Not allot of wiggle room the way you present it. And yes, I think many of the parents at IAO will think it is a clever joke. Unless being a parent automatically transforms you into being uptight.

There is the problem of not knowing what a Warp Feed is, I won't address that. It will probably break even with the number of parents who don't even know what a hopper is.

No sense in arguing it with you given the range of options you left me. I'm not trying to prove the add is classy so it appears we agree.

Edit: My personal poro stash from Kazza? LMAO

Paul La Rue

08-01-2002, 03:19 PM

Did anyone go and look at the web site AGD is promoting at the bottom of the billboard?
:confused:

Now that's great family fun...
:( :mad: :(

Patron God of Pirates

08-01-2002, 03:35 PM

The link to Mancows site does not appear on the actual billboard. Go back and read Toms comments in this thread.

Patron God of Pirates

08-01-2002, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by irbodden
Your point being?

We are talking about the ad on airgun.com... :rolleyes:

Since when? The entire debate on this thread up until now has been about "A Billboard in a public place where families will see it".

Whether or not that add is appropriate for a family friendly website on the internet is a wholly different debate.

Edit: Where on airgun.com is that add?

irbodden

08-01-2002, 03:54 PM

My bad. I either misread it at a glance or he edited it within 5 minutes of posting..

Paul La Rue

08-01-2002, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates
The link to Mancows site does not appear on the actual billboard. Go back and read Toms comments in this thread.

Well at least that is a good thing. I must have missed where Tom said that.
Either way, it still falls into the debate about AGD taking up a "sex sells" attitude.

I did quite like the comment about posting pictures from that site here...how long would it take to get you banned doing that do you think???

irbodden

08-01-2002, 04:12 PM

Paul, want to find out? LOL

I honestly wouldn't mind trying.. LOL :)

Vegeta

08-01-2002, 06:37 PM

Not going to comment on the matter at hand,

but i agree,
that hopper should not be there.

1stdeadeye

08-02-2002, 11:27 AM

A wise man once said that he could not define pornography, but he knew it when he saw it. This can also apply to smut. The key here being who sees it. One man's smut is another man's art. I think everyone has pretty much staked out their position on this billboard. I don't think we are going to see to many people crossing over now.

So let's just agree to disagree!

Patron God of Pirates

08-02-2002, 11:58 AM

Agreed

PS- Nice use of the supreme court to make your point :)

Krazy Ivan

08-02-2002, 12:10 PM

I think the billboard is very clever. While it does depict a woman in more of a sex appeal type of manner, it's done with at least some class. If the girl was standing with a bikini on that barely covered anything it's more of a subjectification. This is more to make a clever tongue in cheek look at how people design their markers, instead of saying, "hey if you buy my gun, you'll get chicks."

Just my 2 cents, will hopefully drop a quarter in later, but I don't have time now.

hitmanng

08-02-2002, 11:50 PM

I am amazed that this is being discussed like it is a new issue. The discussion already happened back in May:
To review the old discussion and save my fingers.

hitmanng
Slayer of Sacred Cows

OK not to beat a dead horse but what exactly was the product this billboard was marketing. I would bet at least 50% of the "target market" does not think much about the warp feed every day. Even on the way to a tourney. They simply wouldn't get it.

To skirts, actually I do look at the billboard thread almost every day and try to reevaluate why people like the ones that they do. Why is this billboard the most talked about?? Because it most makes us think about ourselves and how we want to be represented. Thordic mentioned "families, kids, priests, nuns, doctors, garbagemen, cats, dogs, birds, teachers". Take out the animals and I have seen all of these except the Nun at a paintball field. They are also all a part of our community and all will have a part in deciding whether those in the paintball community are ever invited back to their home. I have to agree with Shartly it is not the pretty women factor it is the class factor.

The billboard never even mentioned the warp feed or what its function is to help you in the game. It clearly states to me "I wish I could move that hopper to get a better look at her". Not a paintball message.

Just my opinion.
Hitmanng

Toms clear response:

AGD
President of AGD (really)

MAN you guys are all over this thing!! The old marketing adage "there is no bad exposure" seems to come to mind along with my buddy Mancow saying "when they stop talking about you, your dead".

We are behind the 8 ball on marketing, that's a fact. We don't have the time or money to work on a long term strategies like "4 out of 5 dentists recommend Crest". Whatever we do must stand out in a crowd of WDP adds and not be crowded out by 10 pages of spider promos.

We can't be cool(WDP) or custom(WGP)or flashy(every spider clone). We have to find our own wedge to split through the noise. The one thing the design in question has is that it's FUNNY! Everyone who has seen it has laughed. I know from actually READING about marketing to teenagers that the funny bone is highly valued and underutilized in most teen marketing strategies.

This is for a one shot billboard. It was my idea to get the billboard in the first place so AGD has gotten first choice of the four that are available. The rest have all been grabbed by the major tournament sponsors. I have competition in the works and I have to make this count.

I feel that I have little choice but to go with shock treatments at this stage in the game. We need to re-emerge from the shadows in a bold move. I can't wait months for people to hear about and see the results of LVL10 I need to shake them up NOW!!!

The Mancow stunt was a case in point. Over the top, got huge commentary from across the industry from top to bottom. Other industry people are now worried about what we will do next and a lot of players have that little video etched in their minds. (our server flatlined at max output when we put it up). Would I do it again? You bet if I was still in this current situation, if I had WDP's rep I would stay away.

I have already made a series of videos for LVL10 but they are not bold enough to shockwave into your brain. We have a new video concept that will undoubtedly make several people leave this board in disgust. My lawyer is checking to see if we will get arrested for anything (no women involved by the way). I am trying to do stuff that is so dramatic that just verbally REPEATING it to your friends will make them want to see it.

Many people have a personal relationship with us from this forum. We appreciate and can understand that acting in an over the top manner can generate hard feelings from our friends here. We ask you to look at the big picture and remember the number of players out there that have the words “mags suck” burned into their minds. To replace that view is going to take something dramatic and bordering on unbelievable to get them to take notice. This is Theater of the Mind where the bad guy always gets a lead roll.

We might just have to be the bad guy for a while.

AGD

I think I summed it up pretty well with this:

hitmanng
Slayer of Sacred Cows

I must say this is some of the saddest information I have ever heard on this forum. I think Tom has spent way too much time hanging out with Mancow. I can say I did not in the least way find that billboard funny. And I think most who will still won't spend $100.00 on a warp feed because of it. You state you feel you have to go with shock treatment at this stage in the game but 6 months ago you where telling us that AGD is a viable company the way it is and has no need to worry about anything. I am glad you don't have WDP's rep. I didn't think you wanted it. I find it sad that you want to stick in people's mind even under the man is that sick area. At least you do understand the ramification of your actions and that you now have to get the WDP bussiness or bust because your old school loyal fans may not be there in the future for you. I hoped someone took your password and made that post but I know that is not true. I guess Tom Kayes wants to be the new bad guy in town. Good luck to you.
By the way, what was the AKLAMP's website I think I need to buy an Excaliber.
Oh and Tom I finished the billboard for you: Thought it would save you a little time.
http://members.aol.com/hitmanng/billboard

Tom's response:

AGD
President of AGD (really)
Remember what I said in the first post, if I had WDP's rep I wouldn't have done the Mancow stunt. NO I don't want to have the same rep as WDP, I think it's one sided and does nothing to represent their engineering skills.

Shock value is a dangerous road to follow because it wears out so quickly. To use a father analogy, if you yell at your kid every day, after a while it becomes normal and your child still doesn't listen. Your only choice is to yell LOUDER and MORE often which is a loosing battle. If you rarely yell and blow up when your kid comes home with a bad report card THAT gets his attention!

Right now, in this situation, with the current state of affairs, I need to hit the donkey in the head with a 2x4(most of you probably don't remember that joke).

AGD

Feel free to read the entire discussion here:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37182&perpage=30&highlight=billboard&pagenumber=4

I am really sad to see this actually happen. As you may have noticed I haven't been around much. I am not giving up on AGD after one billboard but there is a trend being set I really don't want to be a part of.
Hope to see you all soon at Shatnerball.
Your Friend
Gordon

MagDog68

08-03-2002, 04:32 AM

Whatever - the board is up and time will tell. I doubt AGD will sell a naked lady trigger anytime soon, so I am not too worried about them ruining their image with one billboard.

Originally posted by Vegeta
Not going to comment on the matter at hand,
but i agree,
that hopper should not be there.
Finally someone has enough CLASS to be totally honest! :rolleyes: :D
~Fred

DiRTyBuNNy

08-03-2002, 04:49 AM

I really don't know what to say...half naked chick or not..i think the billboard is showing off the wrong product..you yourself stated that you thought the warp feed was going to lift AGD out of the dolldrums and in your own eyes it's been a commercial failure which has only now started to hit it's stride and now you're spending all this cash on a billboard showcasing it? I would have gone with something like a shot of the Extreme...with the Websters definition for the word extreme but add a new definition to the end of the websters one, saying something like "The most technically advanced marker from one of the oldest companies in paintball"...and then put a little banner in the corner saying "Now with Level 10"...or a do a banner with a tagline such as "Paint Chops? with level 10 we don't get no stinkin' paint chops!" and then show off the new Extreme...

manike

08-03-2002, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by MagDog68
Finally someone has enough CLASS to be totally honest!
~Fred

You've got to be kidding me if you think that's what CLASS means.

Here let me help you with a link...

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=class

This is what class means in this context...

"Elegance of style, taste, and manner: "

manike

MagDog68

08-03-2002, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by manike

You've got to be kidding me if you think that's what CLASS means.

Here let me help you with a link...

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=class

This is what class means in this context...

"Elegance of style, taste, and manner: "

manike

It was a joke - seeing as how everyone is talking about CLASS - damn you people are WAAAAYYYYY tooo uptight!

~Fred

manike

08-03-2002, 08:40 AM

Sorry, Jokes usually come with Smiley faces. Otherise it is hard to tell 'tone of voice' when typing :)

manike

MagDog68

08-03-2002, 02:32 PM

I am not up on internet communications and etiquette I guess...my bad. Check it now, makes more sense.

~Fred

1stdeadeye

08-03-2002, 07:54 PM

Since I like quoting people, here is one for you:

"Can't we all just get along?"
:D

billmi

08-04-2002, 04:25 PM

While it takes another step further down on the class scale, I think hitmang's version of the billboard sure is funnier. If "there's no such thing as bad publicity" why not just a picture of a player holding up the gun and two big words "I SUCK!" People will remember that and talk about it. But then again, I DO think there is such a thing as bad publicity.

Just because you're dead when people aren't talking about you, doesn't mean you aren't dying or dead when they are talking about you. Look at Elvis, all that talking isn't bringing him back, unless you believe the Enquirer article that he was spotted pumping gas in Lodi, California.

See you on the field,
-Bill

P8ntballerAK

08-04-2002, 04:57 PM

MY GOD PEOPLE!!!!

you need to calm down, seriously. I hope none of you guys watch television, caus there are sexual inuindos(spelling) every where. And the nerve to say that this is a discrace to AGD. Who the He** are you guys to judge AGD, I don't see any of you making decisions on what to put up on a billboard. And I sure don't see you guys running the company making the finest paintball markers in the world. If a parent has a child playing paintball, then chances are that they have seen the girls for ronin gear and other products. This is now worse than them. I just can't believe that the people who don't run AGD should say anything about a "discrace". In my shop I have all sort of little things like this laying around, and the negative comments I get on them is minimal compared to the positive feedback. And no matter what you do there are gonna be a group of people who disagree, so get off AGD's back and go post something constructive.. /flameoff

shartley

08-04-2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by P8ntballerAK
MY GOD PEOPLE!!!!

you need to calm down, seriously. I hope none of you guys watch television, caus there are sexual inuindos(spelling) every where. And the nerve to say that this is a discrace to AGD. Who the He** are you guys to judge AGD, I don't see any of you making decisions on what to put up on a billboard. And I sure don't see you guys running the company making the finest paintball markers in the world. If a parent has a child playing paintball, then chances are that they have seen the girls for ronin gear and other products. This is now worse than them. I just can't believe that the people who don't run AGD should say anything about a "discrace". In my shop I have all sort of little things like this laying around, and the negative comments I get on them is minimal compared to the positive feedback. And no matter what you do there are gonna be a group of people who disagree, so get off AGD's back and go post something constructive.. /flameoff
Who is NOT calm? Speaking up and saying you disagree is being “not calm”? LOL Seems that you are the one not calm…. Might you take your own advice? ;)

Also, what anyone else does is not the issue, it is what AGD does that is. And you know what? AGD has touted that they were DIFFERENT from day one. ;);)

As for who we think we are? LOL I know you are new to AO so I will clue you in…. We on AO are who Tom Kaye comes to for opinions, those that agree with him and those that do not. It is one of the reasons he bought the forums. We are also the ones who have helped him design things, promote his products, give feedback leading to the development or improvement of his products, etc.

You also ended it with “/flameoff” when one of the RULES here on AO is NO FLAMING. You are now openly admitting to breaking the rules? I know I am personally offended by your post, it seems to be made from an uninformed position, and a blatant attack against anyone who disagrees with Tom (or yourself). The true test of respecting opinions and being able to state them, is respecting and upholding the right of those who you disagree with to state theirs as well…. And this is a WELL known aspect of AO. It almost looks as if you have either forgotten this, or never known it.

But with that in mind…. One might ask the same of you, that which you asked of us….. ;)

1stdeadeye

08-04-2002, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by billmi

Just because you're dead when people aren't talking about you, doesn't mean you aren't dying or dead when they are talking about you. Look at Elvis, all that talking isn't bringing him back, unless you believe the Enquirer article that he was spotted pumping gas in Lodi, California.

See you on the field,
-Bill [/B]

Elvis? Where?
Is he one of that dozen living out in western PA?:D
:D

hitmanng

08-04-2002, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by shartley

As for who we think we are? LOL I know you are new to AO so I will clue you in…. We on AO are who Tom Kaye comes to for opinions, those that agree with him and those that do not. It is one of the reasons he bought the forums. We are also the ones who have helped him design things, promote his products, give feedback leading to the development or improvement of his products, etc.
;)

Exactly Shartley, I have a lot of respect for Tom Kayes and the company that he has built through inovation and invention. I believe that the Automag is one on the best designs ever created for a paintball gun and way before it's time.
The problem I see is that Tom is trying to get market share in the wrong way and I think in the end it will backfire. I think the billboard would be fine for a strip joint but not a paintball add at a paintball tourney. Where we are trying to increase public awareness and support for paintball as a competative sport.
In a market where there are now many great paintball guns (ask Tom about all the other guns he owns and loves), Tom is making a wrong move at this time. But that is not my call. I do respect all that Tom has done for me, and all of us here at AO, and I pay back that respect by giving him my honest opinion. I am not flaming, I am trying to help. I think that anyone that has listened to me ramble here at length in the past knows that. This is not about flaming it is about education. I hope we all learn something about the world around us.
Hitmanng.

P8ntballerAK

08-04-2002, 10:08 PM

So have your opinions, but don't post that something is a disgrace. Thats just plain wrong. And the /flameoff is turning off my anger, not the burning of a particular post. you seem to be well edumacated shartley, but personaly, I dont believe there is a person here who can talk about this being a disgrace to agd. I believe its quiet the opposite. as for being offended, you offended me by calling this a disgrace, I don't know about you but I am a sexual being and darn proud of it. And so is every other male i know. I hope AGD uses more props like this, and I hope you will refrain from the use of harsh words in the future. You could have just as well said ( I dislike what they have done with the billboard" and made your point.

shartley

08-04-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by P8ntballerAK
So have your opinions, but don't post that something is a disgrace. Thats just plain wrong. And the /flameoff is turning off my anger, not the burning of a particular post. you seem to be well edumacated shartley, but personaly, I dont believe there is a person here who can talk about this being a disgrace to agd. I believe its quiet the opposite. as for being offended, you offended me by calling this a disgrace, I don't know about you but I am a sexual being and darn proud of it. And so is every other male i know. I hope AGD uses more props like this, and I hope you will refrain from the use of harsh words in the future. You could have just as well said ( I dislike what they have done with the billboard" and made your point.
I don’t quite know how to answer that post….. You take what people think about what AGD does as a personal affront to YOU? And you think I used harsh words? I can have my opinion but just don’t POST it?

All other points have been more than covered by myself and other AO members……

Timmee

08-04-2002, 11:52 PM

Personally, I agree with SHartley, Bill Mills, and others. I think that AGD shouldn't have gone with that ad, and that another ad would have been more suitable. That isn't to say that the billboard won't do it's job by catching peoples attention, but there are other ways. It's been stated that humor is an underutilized marketing strategy for the demographic. A better billboard utilizing humor, IMO, would have been showing someone with a goggle hit, with the text, "With the AGD Warp Feed, you no longer have to worry about hopper hits" (or something to that extent).

SSMercury

08-04-2002, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by beam
"SHOULD sex sell?"

No, I don't think it should. Does though.

Originally posted by beam
history has shown that WHAT ONE GENERATION DOES, THE NEXT WILL DO IN EXCESS!

Actually, it's very interesting. Historically, the next generation flips. Conservative to liberal and back. And even more radically liberal/conservative. 1940's and 1950's=very conservative. 1960's and early 1970's=very liberal is an example

Originally posted by beam
In my opinion, women should be honored, not put up as pieces of meat used to sell...what...PAINTBALL EQUIPMENT?!?!?!

Agree, sort of. I disagree on an off topic point about men-women relationships I'm not going to bring up here.

Originally posted by beam
I think something that would have been REALLY cool, would have been if AGD made fun of how ads always use sex/sexuality to sell products. We could've used our brains to come up with something really witty, and intellectually sarcastic. Instead, we got a topless woman. hmmmmm :(

Also agree. Having read the thread up till this post on...4rd page? I side with the people believing the billboard WAS appropriate. It fit the target audience, like it or not. This thread is more like a clash between conservatives and liberals, not necessarily a bad thing. We all have paintball in common, we don't necessarily have matching opinions on whether a billboard was appropriate.

However, this billboard isn't what I'd attribute to Airgun Designs. Advertising through sexual/sensual explicit advertising isn't how I'd go through advertising AGD's products. Truth is, I can't think of anyway to demonstrate AGD's superiority. Unless you can just...well...demonstrate in person. That's AGD's strength, true technical superiority. You can have truthful advertising, but it's like shouting on Wall Street. The message gets lost with everyone else's. If I saw this billboard in a paintball magazine such as APG, I'd say, yeah, yeah, and turn the page. Demonstrating in person at fields, tournaments (especially tournaments), manufacturers, anywhere anyone could amass the cash for AGD's products. Oh, and making AGD products cheaper can't hurt.

P8ntballerAK

08-05-2002, 01:34 AM

OK, shartley if your gonna put a qoute down from me, at least read it. I did not say don't post your comments, I said don't post that something like that is a disgrace. yes points are well made on both sides of the line, but most of them were done so conservatively, I just think that some people could have used better words thats all. I am not coming back to this thread so don't bother to reply.

shartley

08-05-2002, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by P8ntballerAK
OK, shartley if your gonna put a qoute down from me, at least read it. I did not say don't post your comments, I said don't post that something like that is a disgrace. yes points are well made on both sides of the line, but most of them were done so conservatively, I just think that some people could have used better words thats all. I am not coming back to this thread so don't bother to reply.
I know you stated you were not coming back to this thread, but my response is to rebut your comment made openly.

I did read what you wrote, and in fact I am a stickler about that. It seems however that you did not read what I wrote. I did not say “comments”, I said “opinions” (which was the exact word you used in your other post). This may seem like nitpicking, but it is not, since it really changes what the meaning of the statement using it is. And your comment made it appear that I was the one who did not read your post(s) and then misquoted or misrepresented what you said, when if anyone reads the entire banter between us, they will see that this would only be true in reverse.

And the problem is, that this has happened many times in this thread (not just by yourself). The convenient shift of (or substitution of) words to alter what someone said (even if so slightly) to either intentionally or unintentionally change what a person said, how they said it, or meant it to be.

You do indeed say not to post your “opinions”, and do so again. If someone thinks that it WAS a disgrace, they should not POST that “opinion” when making “comments”. See? I never said you told me not to post my comments….

Also, if you read, I was not (by far) the most “harsh” about this issue. But I am a good target right? You picked me to directly debate with, fine, but I would suggest sticking to what we both said…. Unlike what you insinuate, I actually DO read people’s posts… word for word (even my own since people tend to try to use my own words against me… but like you just did, tend to use them inaccurately).

I have nothing against you personally, please believe me. And this is only one issue in our lives. Just next time please don’t DO what you claim I have done, but actually did not.