How much is too much

[ogre55]

So I have been thinking about the sheer density that is 20 BPS and to be honest I don't know if it's a bit of overkill.

Many if not all of us have seen the footage of the Lvl 10 E-Mag with the Richochet or HALO pumping out 20 BRS without a chop and empying the loader in less than 15 seconds. I have yet to see anyone try to use that kind of firepower on the field, and most fields do not allow people to go FA, but with the capability out there, sooner or later, they will.

Just to give an example of what 20 BPS is, it is 1200 balls per minute, a cyclic rate that rivals gatling style miniguns. For those of you who do not know what I am talking about, miniguns are the super rapid firing, six barrel guns that Jesse Ventura carried in the movie Predator, and more recently, that you saw used out of the sides of helicopters in Black Hawk Down.

I have been under fire by multiple guns blasting away at 6, 8 or even 10 BPS and while expending loads of paint, I don't think they had much of chance to blast through the barricade I was behind.

So I ask, my fellow paintballers, at what point do you go from the useful to the superfluous, 6 BPS, 8, 15...

[Krazy Ivan]

I had to go with 15. Not really the excessive point, but 20 is a little too excessive. I'd say 17+ is excessive, because with that much paint being thrown your not going to hit anything better, but rather just make the opposition stay down. However would they really stay down longer than if your ripping at 8, or 10 bps? no, because it's still bps, a second doesn't change.

[personman]

Well, full auto 20 bps is crazy, but imagine what kind of snap shot action you could get with 20 bps on 3 rnd burst? :D

[TransMan]

Hmmm i think FA is not needed and anything over 15 is too much bt if im not mistaken Mini guns Shoot A LOT faster than 20 RPS.

[Jonno06]

15 is too much........

[marley618]

I think 15 is the limit for me. I can see somone shooting 15bps on the break if they are a back player. After that its just a waste of paint.

[RusskiX]

I don't think the question is what BPS is enough. Its all relative compared to what the other guy is shooting. When pumps started mass production, all the PGP and splatmasters were put to shame. When blowback semis became popular, the pump crowd thought it was overkill. Now electros are making the mechanical crowd wonder what limit should be placed on BPS.

The arms race is just a natural outgrowth of the technological advances made in the last 15 years. What ROF is enough? Whatever rate gives me an edge over the other guy! All things being equal, I have as much fun playing with Splatmasters as with my Autococker and Mag, as long as everyone is equally matched.

Just my $0.02

[SlartyBartFast]

If you are talking about continuous fire, I have to say even at 6 BPS you're just wasting paint.

In use as 3-round bursts, 15 or 20 BPS may indeed be a good thing.

Might be interesting to look at the reasons that most army training uses three round bursts. Isn't the M-16 and other American and NATO weapons limited to this in full-auto?

Part of the reason was simply conservation of ammunition, but wasn't part of it also linked to accuracy and probability of hitting target?

[CleenSweep]

15bps full auto is way to much. If you can pull the trigger snap shooting that fast...fine. But just pulling a trigger and shooting 15-20 (I've seen it done) is out of control.

Can you say bonus balls:mad:

[ogre55]

I can think of two ways to measure. 1) Running through or dodging paint. I have dodged single balls flying at me from across field. But having 5-10 balls flying at me it would be impossible. So when does it become impossible to avoid the paint? 5 balls, 10? Also, how thick does a stream of paint have to be to make sure that anyone running through it will be hit? Due to the slow speed of paintballs, compared to bullets, in order to hit a moving target at more than 20-30 feet you have to lead your target. Much easier to just send a stream of balls in front of your target and let your opponent run through it. What rate of fire assures that your target will be hit? I don't think anyone can run through a line of paint more than 8 BPS.

2) Intimidation. This is much simpler. Keeping your target down is important even if you don't hit him. So at what point does your target just not care how much paint you can throw? I usually use controlled bursts of 3-6 balls to keep an opponent down effectivly.

[Fanatic]

well here is my point
20 bps IS a waste of paint IF your shooting the heck off a bunker at fully auto to keep someone down.
As for the burst opinion earlier, 20bps is just not a limit but i would have to say, almost a must. I feel that when i want to shoot at a target, i would never try to unload 20 shots but a short burst of shot at 20ROF as to BPS. Thats sounds a bit weird, but i feel the faster rate of fire(ROF) to those burst shots tightens the string and increases the accuracy.(cycling the shots with min. shoot down)

I think the question should be that of rate of fire. The faster your marker cycles to put that next ball into the breach the better....

....thats just my experience:D

[Wheelman]

Originally posted by ogre55
Just to give an example of what 20 BPS is, it is 1200 balls per minute, a cyclic rate that rivals gatling style miniguns


I think that the cyclic rate of a minigun is closer to 6000rpm, but I could be wrong.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Wheelman



I think that the cyclic rate of a minigun is closer to 6000rpm, but I could be wrong.

You are not wrong. The cyclic rates for miniguns are adjustable from as low as 300 to as high as 6000.

My bad.

[CRiZO]

I agree with it being all about fair competition, personally, if both me and some other guy were both capable of 20 bps, it would be awesome, imagine the intesity of the game. The thing that would keep it from ever really being fair, is $$. For those of us who have to pay full price for paint, it racks up quickly. Whoever has more money can shoot more, that simple. Soon major paintball tourneys will have subclasses, like auto races, that way its still competiton about skill and not all the machine.

Pro > semi-mech
Pro > semi-electro
Pro > too much paint
Pro > ghetto

[TransMan]

I wouldnt mind seeing sub classes but instead of limiting it to only one type of gun it should be more like this:
PRO-Anything Goes
PRO-Semi any gun
PRO-Semi mechanical
and so forth so that if you had a semi mech you would still be able to compete with electros if you wanted to or just have limits on how much paint you can carry in each class like this:
PRO-200 balls a game
PRO-500 balls a game
PRO-1000 balls a game
and so forth so that players would have to limit there selves.

[j.t.]

Personally I dont think that it should be divided into classes because you would need alot more teams to fill each class and it would cause alot of confusion. This is why I would like to see more varied tournaments. Instead of subclasses, each tournament could have its own restrictions.

[SyntaxError]

jesus, suppression can be accomplished with 5 balls per second just as well as 20. A person isn't coming out for 5, why would they peek their head out when they hear 20 coming at them? I can understand that shooting faster in short bursts is important, especially for front players who are snapshooting, but honestly, if you can't do your job with the capability of 10-12 bps, why play?

[FaSSt]

One major point nobody brought up yet - safety.

Current safety equipment such as lenses or entire masks will most likely not withstand a large number of shots fired at a fast rate from up close.

Arbitrary numbers are meaningless here. Safety would depend on:

1. Equipment used
2. Players
3. Referees

I have seen situations where single shots would not even be safe due to the lack of reffing and idiots playing; conversely, I would not have a problem playing with full auto at 20 bps with some people I know and trust.

As long as you keep it (TRUE) semi only, I think the likelihood of something awful happening is greatly reduced.

Oh, and there already is a tournament series that limits paint: Pan-Am.

[KamikazePenguin]

when I play, i like my gun to be set high enough that i'm not going to miss any shots from pulling too fast, which is usually 12bps. I don't shoot 12bps, but the way my shots are spaced out sometimes i'll get two that are about as close as a constant 12bps would be, and if my gun were set too low on the ROF i'd skip a shot or two once in a while, which is annoying. On full auto, 8BPS is more than enough. On semi, a 13bps limit would still be fine. This is assuming an electro gun. With a mechanical anything over ten is overkill, by far.

I voted 15.

[RT_Luver]

I agree in some forms and in some I dont. while in a game, 20BPS IS a little ridiculous, but when your just wanting to have fun shooting your gun. it can be QITE entertaining. when I first fired my emagnum today in FA at 20BPS. my dad had a hard time believing that a gun could do that and NOT break ONE BALL. He about made me pull the barrel out to make sure i hadn't. but their wasn't paint in the barrel or in the breach. and I shot about 100 balls(yes, in 5 seconds) and I'm telling the truth, I dont have Lvl 10. I sold that to tuna when I couldn't get the ROF i wanted with it in. so ina game, its not that important, but when your wanting to scare your friends...it can be more then worth it.

[TRIAD]

The miniguns you saw in black hawk down have a shot rate of 1400-1600 rpm, with 1/4 of those rounds (usually) being tracers, so you have actual bullet rate of 1050-1200

[paintbattler]

my best advise i can say is... 'the more, the better'

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by TRIAD
The miniguns you saw in black hawk down have a shot rate of 1400-1600 rpm

with that being so...and if i understand rpm being rounds per minute. then the guns COULD shoot about 23-26 bullets per second. thats if I'M understanding everything correclty(which i may not be)

[P4ULuk]

Semi only, as fast as you can pull the trigger!

Paul.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by RT_Luver


with that being so...and if i understand rpm being rounds per minute. then the guns COULD shoot about 23-26 bullets per second. thats if I'M understanding everything correclty(which i may not be)

20 BPS translates to 1200 BPM.

[Vern1]

Greetings,
What ^HE^ said.
Semi only as fast as YOU can PULL the trigger.
Full auto is for lamers(or cheaters) who can't pull the trigger.
On break, the more paint you can put down field and in the lanes, the better.
After you settle into your bunker, finesse, control and accuracy comes into play.

Full auto is cool to demonstrate the capabilities of a marker or loader but has no real use other than that.
Also, the insurance companies that insure paintball fields don't allow full auto.

[Tyril]

No limits! Why? Because that gives paintball gun manufacturers an incentive to design, perfect, and innovate their own technology, upping the bar for everyone. This has a few excellent points, like that of lowering the cost for the consumer across the board. Imagine: back in the days of the pumps, the first semi-auto markers were amazingly expensive, and many pump players rejected them as cheap. But the great advantage that the semi-auto marker allowed our average Joe Paintball gave manufacturers a brand new market. Different designs came out and everyone's prices lowered. I feel that the same is happening with our current electro-heavy arsenal. Electros used to be only for the pros, the rich, or the sponsored, but now, with cheap new electronic guns coming out right and left, we will see price drops as companies strive to remain competitive. Capitalism can be a beautiful thing.

-mike

[845]

I think that there should be no limit on guns speed as long as it is semi mode. Full auto is like a ferrari in the city. It is pointless because it is impractical accept for picking up chicks(ferrari) or showing off to your friends (Full auto 20bps). :)

[Restola]

I bet 10 years ago this same discussion occured, and whatever decision they made was trampled by technology.

The technology will keep comming, and game will change.

[Tom Sparkman]

Originally posted by TRIAD
The miniguns you saw in black hawk down have a shot rate of 1400-1600 rpm, with 1/4 of those rounds (usually) being tracers, so you have actual bullet rate of 1050-1200

From the Military Analysis Network:
"The GAU-17/A utilized on the UH-1N, H-3, and H-60 aircraft, is a crew served, electrically driven, 6 barreled, rotary action, percussion fired weapon, with a maxi-mum rate of fire of 6000 rounds per minute. In the current crew served application the rate of fire is selectable at either 2000 or 4000 rounds per minute."

That translates to 33, 67, & 100 rounds/sec.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m134.htm

Tom

[TRIAD]

Yes, that's right. Sorry, I read a lot of books (2 or 3 a month), and after Black Hawk Down and Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger (which both had the chopper with the gun), I guess I got confused. Yes, it is 2000-6000 rpm, 1400-1600 is waaayyy too low, but 1/4 of those 4000-6000 rounds are tracers. While this may intimidate the enemy, seeing so many tracers, they do not kill. So, it's actually 1500-4500 actual bullets per minutes, or 25-75 bullets per second, and 8.3-25 tracers per second.

[kool_aid39]

This is coming from my uncle: Tracer ammunition is nothing more the a ball round with magnesium embedded in the base. Yes they can kill. Tracer rounds are used for marking, directing and correcting the point of impact of the weapon.

Oh yeah, my uncle was a helicopter gunship pilot in Veitnam and he fully knows what a minigun is capable of.

-Mikal

[P8ntballerAK]

30 BPS,
ya thats right you heard me!!

lol just kiding. Did everyone forget about the 3 shot rule?? If your shooting 20bps in 3 shot bursts and you a good aim and let off4 bursts, your out along with oyur opponent. As long as the 3 shot rule is still in effect, then f/a will not be allowed. I would like a gun that could cycle 30BPS without shootdown, then I would never have to worry about misfires.

[MagManOne]

The direction the sport of paintball heads, I think, will be determined by how much skill is involved. It will not destoy the sport by any means, it may even make more people come. But I'd think some will be turned off by 25 bps and being lazy on the field. Skill is becoming less and less important now. I've find the people who grew up on pump guns are some of the best players I know. They're better & more efficient than the 12 year old down the street that had his mom buy him an Emag (no offense to anybody). Mechanical guns at unlimited ROF are the best bet (such as RT). I've heard the argument on behalf of super fast guns that it will cause more competition in the industry, but I really haven't seen much of that in terms of making the sport less expensive. Instead, it costs much more for a great gun, which favors those with the dough. Holding down the trigger and 3 balls come out and f/a is becoming sickening, though it is fun just for the heck of it. I don't have anything against the manufacturers though. Let's say in 5 years, when near all guns can shoot 20 bps (let's just say), games will become much more one-dimensional. think about it, all u gotta do is bunker someone with your 20 bps, hold em in place, let somebody else run up from your team, get the kill. One on ones will become boring. Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't care if I am, but that's my two pennies.

[fearc7]

i think multi-mode should be aloud. I mean it makes sense because i think its silly we have to pull the trigger for every shot, and that makes your accuracy not as good(sorry if anyone disagrees but thats my oppinion). Now, i think the modes should not be target of rules, just bps. i would be happier shooting a full-auto gun at say 10-12 bps, than say 14-16 semi, because i think the shots would be more effective and accurate. At 12 bps, thats not too excessive, but not too slow. Plus, bonus balls are caused by careless people not the guns. Don't blame it on the gun, blame it on the controller!

[Mag89]

The Faster the Better.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by TransMan
limits on how much paint you can carry in each class like this:
PRO-200 balls a game
PRO-500 balls a game
PRO-1000 balls a game
and so forth so that players would have to limit there selves.

I think this is the way to go also. If you emptied your hopper in 15 seconds and couldn't shoot the rest of the game you would be screwed. People like to see running sliding and diving. People popping up their lids and realizing they only have 5 balls to get out 3 people. This kind of stuff is exciting. Supression fire by people carrying 7 140 round pods is kind of boring to watch.

[oldsoldier]

I have been in the presence of these things firing, and at night to boot. I have to say it is a truly amazing site. The sound is constant, and a 1/12 ratio of tracer still seems like a laser; woe to anyone caught within its sight!



EDIT: also, due to the inherent design of the gun, it ejects rounds from the breech, whether fired or not. This prevents jamming, but makes for one helluva lump when it lands on you. And 20 mm brass is hot AND big.

[P8ntballerAK]

I think it should be by players, not a class.
like in a ten man, you have 3 of each and one wild card guy who you can place wherever you want. Like this
3 backplayers- 1 hopper and 8 pods each
3 mid players- 1 hopper and 3-5 pods each
3 front players- 1 hopper and 1-3 pods each
1 wild card player-1 hopper and 1-6 pods each any position

heres the 7 man
2 back players- 1 hopper 7-8 pods each
2 mid players- 1 hopper 3-5 pods each
2 front players- 1 hopper 1-3 pods each
2 wild cards- 1 hopper and 1-5 pods each any position

5 man
1 back player- 1 hopper 6-7 pods each
1 mid player- 1 hopper 2-4 pods each
1 front player- 1 hopper 1-3 pods each
2 wild cards- 1hopper- 1-5 pods each any position

3 man
3 wild cards- 1 hopper 1-6 pods each

Make each type of player wear like a certain armband, and make rules on positions like offsides, backplayers can't pass front players unless all front players and mid players are eliminated. That way you dont have a wild card with 7 pods playing front all the wild cards have to pick a class and stay with it. you can think of more rules this is just how I might set my field up here in Alaska.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Ok this is the way i see it. you have a marker that can shoot 20 BPS, big deal. You are not shooting full auto on the field and there is no way you will get to 20 in semi mode (well, possible but unlikely). If you have skill you can get around the string of fire and win, because remember, alot of times the constant strings of 20bps will be from a player with no skill and mad cash. Also, i saw some of you said games in the future will be boring seeing 20 bps fly across the field, but guess what? If both teams are shooting the same amount of paint, they will both have the same challneges therefore making it exciting.if you like it or not, everyone will always want something faster and better then the oter guy. That would be like turning down a Ferrari because it goes too fast and getting a Ford tarus instead. And as far as modes go, modes shouldn't be allowed, F/A and 3,6,9 shot burst are pointless. that is what makes it boring. Having a gun limited to 13 would be pointless too because think if you were trying to snap shoot 3 balls extremely fast, well you would get them out faster if you had a gun shooting at 30 Rather then shooting at 13 because the gun shooting at 30 will cycle faster then the one shooting at 13.

[drx975]

Ok here we go. Here's my view on this, but first this quote by Magman:

The direction the sport of paintball heads, I think, will be determined by how much skill is involved. It will not destoy the sport by any means, it may even make more people come. But I'd think some will be turned off by 25 bps and being lazy on the field. Skill is becoming less and less important now. I've find the people who grew up on pump guns are some of the best players I know. They're better & more efficient than the 12 year old down the street that had his mom buy him an Emag (no offense to anybody). Mechanical guns at unlimited ROF are the best bet (such as RT). I've heard the argument on behalf of super fast guns that it will cause more competition in the industry, but I really haven't seen much of that in terms of making the sport less expensive. Instead, it costs much more for a great gun, which favors those with the dough. Holding down the trigger and 3 balls come out and f/a is becoming sickening, though it is fun just for the heck of it. I don't have anything against the manufacturers though. Let's say in 5 years, when near all guns can shoot 20 bps (let's just say), games will become much more one-dimensional. think about it, all u gotta do is bunker someone with your 20 bps, hold em in place, let somebody else run up from your team, get the kill. One on ones will become boring. Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't care if I am, but that's my two pennies.

Alright now I TOTALLY agree here. In honest reality, gun manufacturers are just going to make their gun shoot faster because surveys show (like this one) that people like a gun to shoot faster rather than slower. So we cant beat that, but we have a way to control ROF.

Like the idea in the past few posts, we should create rules for amounts of paint to be brought into a game. Now im not familiar with tourney play, but for a Ten-man game, X amount of paint should be allowed in by each TEAM. This way, the team can decide how much paint to give each player (bringing a whole new strategy into the game) and we wont have people just streaming paintballs down the field for minutes on end. Maybe 5,000 to 6,000 rounds per team.

What does everyone think of this?

[MagManOne]

Totally agree there with all your ideas on paint limit rule. Yeah that was just my opinion, though I can't blame manufacturers for producing what alot of paintballers want. But with your idea, people have to use a bit more logic. :rolleyes: lol. I'm not the smartest or most natural player in the world though.

[RusskiX]

but for a Ten-man game, X amount of paint should be allowed in by each TEAM

One major drawback to this approach is that it is the increase in paint volume that has led to decreasing prices for paintballs. A case used to retail for $140 when I started; now its closer to $40 online. If you limit the amount of paint being shot, prices may not be so advantageous.

Just a small example of the law of unintended consequences...

[meat]

Now everyone stop , anyone that plays paint balll knows that the faster the better as long as you use the speed when you need it , i shoot faster than anyone i play with but i am the most conservative because i dont waste it , here is a scenario that will change your mind if you vote any other that faster = better ... your playing ball , rec or speed , and a guy doesnt know that you can see his butt hanging out , you shoot your slow peice of sludge and 2-4 get sent before the first of the 2-4 gets there. It will take him a couple of seconds to pull himself back into the bunker , if you can shoot 20 bps ( times a couple of seconds is 40 balls) you got alot of balls going at him making it alot better chance of a kill , witch will save you paint if you would have had to shoot 200 more balls at him trying to get him out ... and ... your in speedball game and you set up a lane ( steam of paintballs shot were a player will walk into it ) if your rof is so fast that paintballs are 2 feet apart there is no way they cant get through it without a trip to the dead box awaiting them at the other side of your lane ... and one more ... shooting fast is flipin awsome buddy boy ... this should um finish the tread but here comes another :rolleyes:

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

I think there should be no limit on how much paint you can shoot. i could go through a case doing 5 BPS or 500 bps (not literally but you see my point)

[gatorchris]

This argument needs context. The 20 bps label doesnt mean its firing 20 bps all the time, its more of an indication of the responsiveness of the marker as a whole. It can register up to that many shots per second, as long as there is no FA mode it means little more than that. A 30 bps marker just means its even more sensitive and responsive, but how does that change the face of the game when your finger can only pull 8-12? I think the answer is it doesnt, the only time anyone should be using these rates of fire is on the breakout. 8 bps is putting the paint 2 feet apart (pure guess, work with me here), 16 bps is putting it one foot apart, which is ideal when you are sweet spotting? After the break everyone settles into their bunkers and begins snapping and supressing, and at that point rof really doesnt help much. The player that is fundamentally sound is going to win the battle over rof every time. Playing tight and snapping fast is going to beat the guy thats fanning on his trigger trying to put out 10 bps strings. Until you start seeing 4-6 players dropped on the break, I dont think theres really an issue here. I dont think theres a safety issue with high bps counts either, for both scenarios. If you are snapping you are only out a second, so even if someone was firing 20 bps, you shouldnt take more than 3 balls before coming back in. On the break if youre running through a stream the same applies, you are moving and should only take a handful of paint. On bunkering, if someone puts more than three on you its not the fault of the marker, its the fault of the player, and should be dealt with accordingly. Again, bps doesnt change the fact that its one pull, one shot.