The Angel Rifle

[Hunter Killer]

I was curious if the angel rifle is as good as they say it is. I was tempted to buy one but hesitated just to make sure that I wasn't buying an expensive paper weight. My second question is what company actually manufactures the Angel? Thank you for any information on these questions.
HK

[mike e]

im guessin angel rifle is just a regular angle. the angel is manufactored by WDP which is a british based company with some us distributors. honestly, ive shot angels and they are nice but it really comes down to personal preference. i myself hate centerfeed, which is one reason why i dont own a angel. they really can turn out amazing rates of fire though. on a side note the origin of the name as i understand it was based on the old british comandoes (SAS) "Who Dares Prospers" some people say it was modified for wdp to "Who Dares Plays" but i really am not sure. either way wdp is the manufactorer. my advice to you is to try as many different high end guns as you can get your hands on and see what fits you. also check the angel forum and see what their take is, get as many opinions as possible. just my 2 cents

mike e

[Hunter Killer]

Thanks for the information. In a way I hate the center feed myself and mainly use a rifle sight to acquire my sight picture, a feat that would be awkward with the Angel's config. I have spoken to many people and they pretty much say the same thing. But as you know there are many types of players in the game, and it depends on your play style as well. Some use accuracy by volume and others are true marksmen. I personally don't try to use high rates of fires unless the situation otherwise calls for it, i.e. covering fire, fire and movement, withdrawal techniques etc... Maybe it's just me but I take pride in trying to get hits with the "double tap" method. Talk to you soon.
HK

[mike e]

ill tell you what have you looked into shockers? they dont have insaine rates of fire but they are very quite and very accurate. i picked up a old pvi shocker for 270 dollars not to long ago so they are out there and they are cheap. they have a good upgrade path but are a gun i would truly play with stock. One of the best things smart parts has ever done is give all there guns great stock barrels. check out the shocker forum at shockerworld.com be paitent the site is down frequently. also shockers come in right feed. if electros dont tickle your fancy, look into mags and cockers. but if you go the cocker route i really recomend a swing installed by someone competent. i put my swing on my cocker and it completely elimated my short stroking. just a few thoughts

[TransMan]

Hunter im going to give you a little advice ok in the future people will under stand what your talking about much better if you dont call a marker a rifle. Paintball guns are not rifles and the only way to have an accurate gun(if you call a paint gun accurate) is to have a good paint o barrel match and also have good consistancy. No matter what people tell you a closed bolt gun is not going to shoot farther or more accurate then an open bolt gun. The best way to know what kind of gun you want is by shooting and playing with a lot of guns to see if you like the feel and go from there.

[Hunter Killer]

Okay hold on!

[Hunter Killer]

Just so you know....paintball guns fit into a catergory that is classfied by the A.T.F. as an air-rifle. So technically and officially they place it in this class. The term rifle, although ubiquitous, is construed to mean the class of long guns; handguns barred. A.T.F. also classifies any item or object that fires any, and I stress any projectile, from a closed barrel or shroud is considered a firearm. The definition gets way more specific but there isn't enough space on this website to get into that much detail. It also elaborates on the fact of what mechanism is used to cause the objecto fire...i.e. trigger, sear, bolt, semiautoamtic, fully etc "Rifle", a weapon having a rifled bore (such is the case with some paintball guns), with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger. The term ''firearm'' means

(A)

any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

(B)

the frame or receiver of any such weapon;

(C)

any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or

(D)

any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.(7)

The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

(8)

The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
So as you can see the definition is very broad on purpose..it is for one simple reason. That reason is so if they wanted to place a ban on these types of weapons, airguns or whatever...they easily could. If you want furter information look it up on the B.A.T.F. official website under definitions of firearms.
HK

[Gadget]

HK - Transman was giving you some good advice, they're markers or guns, not rifles.


"Rifle", a weapon having a rifled bore (such is the case with some paintball guns)

I'd imagine 99% of markers don't have rifled barrels.


any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

Which excludes paintball guns as they use a gas, not an explosive as a propellant.

Btw, Mike - the motto of the SAS (who are very much present day and an entirely separate entity from the commandos) is 'Who Dares Wins', not 'Who Dares Prospers'. :)

[Hunter Killer]

You know we could sit here for a thousand years trying to get each other to understand or place certain guns in certain categories. Did you know that there is an air-powered rifle the Navy Sealy use, almost looks like the old school PMI II, that is considered lethal and is qualified as a firearm / rifle. Anyway thaks for the good information and conversation. I do appreciate the things that I have learned. If you guys come across any other info for me please feel free to share it with me. I know that you will all agree with me when I say that we do have to do a lot to improve or help outsiders understand our sport more. Many people misunderstand our sport all the time. I a way I understand why we shouldn't call it a rifle.
Hunter Killer out.....

[xmetal2001]

We COULD call it a Angel rifle, but i've never heard anyone say that, and i've talked to a whole lot of paintball players.

And no offense, but it made you sound like a newb when i first read it, not saying you are, but thats a name that a newbie would come up with.

[Miscue]

It is never referred to as a rifle by paintball players, despite what some group may categorize it to be. Heck, it don't even resemble a 'rifle'. You don't refer to your car as your combustion-propelled carriage right? Is it technically correct? Yeah... but people won't know what the heck you're talking about w/o having to think about it.

Oh, and don't change your text color. 1st Warning.

[Wheelman]

I have only heard of three 'paint rifles' Sheridan's Kp-1 Kp-2 & Kp-3 (I think there were three) but man would I love to get ahold of one of those.

[John Molloy]

I've tried a KP2 (Tyger has one and he won't sell it:( )its very nice...... Over the other side of the pond from you Americans and your ATF the description used is an air rifle, this is based on mussle energy with below 6foot pounds being an air pistol and 6-12 an air rifle, markers come into the latter category much over 300 fps or significantly increase the weight of the paint and it becomes legally a fire arm. We call 'em markers to stop ignorant (those who do not know or understand) people thinking we use guns

[Hunter Killer]

Yeah...well cars could also be called kinetic energy capsules but we don't call it that do we?!! The term marker is used to please the public or to make it seem like it isn't really what it is. The fact of the matter is that should you be so inclined / stupid to kill someone with your "marker", take for example those kids that were shooting random people and video taping their fiasco, should you kill someone...that "marker" in court will be labeled a weapon #1 and #2 the legal definition of a firearm constitues just that. If you know law or have studied some as I have, legal definitions are broad and encompass a wide range of things. The very fact that it has some sort of projectile will classify it as a rifle. But we could sit here and argue till our balls swell up (paintballs that is) but the fact of the matteris that is a gun and people every where associate that with negative connotations. You could call it a "marker" all you want, but when it comes down to it, whenever some outsider or general public see you playing with your "marker" to them, it's a gun=weapon. I understand the need to try and make it seem harmless by calling it a "marker" but when reality sets in...it is what it is. Oh...and another thing....what characteristics are these "markers" modeled after...what's that oh yeah a rifle. Hmmm didn't see that one coming. The very principle of your "marker" is based one of the most dangerous inventions known to man....think about that before you answer it isn't as easy as it seems.

[Hunter Killer]

Yeah...well cars could also be called kinetic energy capsules but we don't call it that do we?!! The term marker is used to please the public or to make it seem like it isn't really what it is. The fact of the matter is that should you be so inclined / stupid to kill someone with your "marker", take for example those kids that were shooting random people and video taping their fiasco, should you kill someone...that "marker" in court will be labeled a weapon #1 and #2 the legal definition of a firearm constitues just that. If you know law or have studied some as I have, legal definitions are broad and encompass a wide range of things. The very fact that it has some sort of projectile will classify it as a rifle. But we could sit here and argue till our balls swell up (paintballs that is) but the fact of the matteris that is a gun and people every where associate that with negative connotations. You could call it a "marker" all you want, but when it comes down to it, whenever some outsider or general public see you playing with your "marker" to them, it's a gun=weapon. I understand the need to try and make it seem harmless by calling it a "marker" but when reality sets in...it is what it is. Oh...and another thing....what characteristics are these "markers" modeled after...what's that oh yeah a rifle. Hmmm didn't see that one coming. The very principle of your "marker" is based one of the most dangerous inventions known to man....think about that before you answer it isn't as easy as it seems.

[Hunter Killer]

Forgive the double post. I refreshed the page and is resent to info.
HK

[Hunter Killer]

What's up with not changing the colors of my text, when you offer the option in the pre-post section. Second, what happens your "warnings"? Let me know when you can...if it messes with the posting I'll understand. What's the reason for this...
HK

[than205]

Originally posted by Hunter Killer
what characteristics are these "markers" modeled after...what's that oh yeah a rifle. Hmmm didn't see that one coming. The very principle of your "marker" is based one of the most dangerous inventions known to man....think about that before you answer it isn't as easy as it seems.

If we wanted to perpetuate this lunacy, "Markers" more "resemble" (if you need to make that correlation) pistols. I think your more burned by the fact that you called it a rifle and in retrospect you know deep down that it's not one. Someone called you on it and you don't like to be wrong or at the least corrected.

I feel that the game of paintball more resembles tag or the all time favorite dodgeball. The intention is not to kill. The intention is to show everyone that the person has been tagged. Or better yet "Marked".

Most markers don't have stocks and to a similar proportion foregrips are vertical not horizontal. Thereby, lessening it's similarities to a rifle. On a lesser note very few barrels are actually rifled. The common belief is that rifling does nothing for the projectile.

I am speaking of the evolved form paintball that we play now. Things have changed.

[Gotcha3]

Man--- I thought that WDP had come out with some new marker!
::::::::D :::::::::::::D :::::D Check It Ref!

[Timmee]

I think the term "marker" first came around because of the way it was used. Originally, paintball markers were used to "mark" cattle and trees. Paintball markers were developed by the Nelson brothers (still around in the business). Hope this helps.

[Hunter Killer]

"If we wanted to perpetuate this lunacy, "Markers" more "resemble" (if you need to make that correlation) pistols. I think your more burned by the fact that you called it a rifle and in retrospect you know deep down that it's not one. Someone called you on it and you don't like to be wrong or at the least corrected." (Quote by than205)

By the way than205, you seem to "try" to start fires where there are none and instead of jumping in still waters with both feet before you test the depth is a bit childish. I thought you were an engineer, not a psychologist. Before you think about how someone might feel emotionally, make sure they are in your office laying down on a couch and your getting paid for the session, that's my thought deep down if you really want to know. This forum is for conversation and discussions, if you want to fight get married. I love to be corrected if it makes sense. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I happen to have the fortunate experience of working on several cases which paintball "markers" were used in commission of a crime or misdemeanor. What they are labeled by law is what category they fit into. As far a rifled barrels go, they still exist if you want one. The issue isn't if things have changed, it is your matter of perception on an item. As for Timmee, I agree and knew about the orginal purpose of the forefathers to the modern paintball gun. I was and still am a Nelson fan. If it weren't for them we wouldn't be were we are right now. All of it is in good fun and good conversation. One more thing than205, when you hit someone with your "marker" what do you call it? Also how long have you been playing? Just curious no agenda.
HK

[Miscue]

/me rips out his handy dandy book of logical fallacies, but spares everyone a detailed analysis. :)

Sophistry... ack. That crap don't cut it on the LSAT... :)

Ok... bickering ends now. Otherwise, thread will be closed.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Hunter Killer
What's up with not changing the colors of my text, when you offer the option in the pre-post section. Second, what happens your "warnings"? Let me know when you can...if it messes with the posting I'll understand. What's the reason for this...
HK

Ok, I just read this.

This thread is dead, so I don't care about cleaning it up. next time... no colors... and delete your double posts.

[Vendetta]

Calling these things “Markers” is just the politically correct thing to do. When I first started play paintball, no one called their guns markers. I'll have to check my old magazines, but I’m pretty sure that “markers” was never used by anyone.

PS. My first paintball gun was a Sheridan Rifle.
:D

[Vendetta]

Was I not suppose to post:confused:

[than205]

LOL.
Wow, you got me all figured out. Can we do tea while we discuss more of my problems?
I'm sorry I was so wrong about you. My bad.

8 or 9 years, I can't remember anymore. Your right, that really means nothing.

I do have an Armson rifled barrel on my F1. Which I used for a long time. Now it's my backup or my friends use it.

Honestly, it certainly seemed that despite numerous people trying to explain something that seems so obvious you doggedly held to the notion. I'm on the fence about the whole "marker" thing. It seems most people prefer the term "gun", but the with everyone so eager to make paintball mainstream the logical and perhap more "PC" term falls back to marker.

I really don't care what you call it. As long as everyone has fun. You just sounded like a newbie calling it a rifle and I found it somewhat funny how after that you had to have such elaborate responses to everyones comment. I guess my post was perhaps too pointed.

[BeerCitySk8brds]

Originally posted by TransMan
Hunter im going to give you a little advice ok in the future people will under stand what your talking about much better if you dont call a marker a rifle.


hahaha

I thought he was talking about a rifled barrel. o man

[Hunter Killer]

I know that your are right about having fun, which is what this sport is all about. I also understand to politcal correctness of calling it a "marker". No hard feelings, we're still friends. I just like to shake things up a bit. Just to let you know I have been playing since 1984, back in the days of the pump. Your post wasn't too pointed...it is good when you can have a good conversation with someone and not take things personal. I'm sure I will see you in other posts....take care my friend.
Hk:D

[fiendkuja]

hi. I like to start flames for no reason. kudos to you, fine sir. you are a gentleman and a scholar...

now with that said



ri·fle1 Pronunciation Key (rfl)
n.

1.
1. A firearm with a rifled bore, designed to be fired from the shoulder.
2. An artillery piece or naval gun with such spiral grooves.


a) As already stated, a paintball 'gun' isn't a firearm as it does not use a key part of that phrase, 'fire'. There is no combustion, simply a redistribution of hydrogen molecules in a bolt-valve release.

b) In 99% of the paintball industry, the barrels are not rifled for one major reason. Due to the shell consistancy of your everyday ordinary paintball, there would be mass choppage and you'd have a $500 blender as apposed to a 'leet gun'.

c) Hunter-killer, for as 'elite' as you are, I'm truely shocked your name doesn't have crazy symbols or perhaps a deviation of standard grammer with something like 'Hunta-killah', or maybe the ultimate in name-enhancing techniques, the devoid capitalization. "HuNTeRKiLlEr" would be pretty rockin', no?

toodles.

[Miscue]

Well... PB barrels aren't rifled because there is no need to do so (except for marketing purposes). You use rifling with ball ammo because if you don't, it can spin randomly at high RPMs and veer off... the rifling spins it the same way each time for sake of consistency. With a PB, you don't have significant random spin problem that could be corrected by rifling... shoot two-tone paint and look at it yourself.

[Hunter Killer]

Yes Mr. Fiendkuja I know that many barrels, hardly any, are rifled these days. Miscue had a good point in shooting two-tone paint....We all know for a fact that at certain distances the paintballs hook and curve. I was shakin' the hornets nest so-to-speak!!! I like discussion especially when I get someone else to give me thier POV. It's no fun if we all don't learn something rigt?! I play for the comraderie and the sportmanship as well as the good friends that I / we make on some of the fields we play on. I forget the gentlemen's name in the discussion about the technical terms, but we can all agree that what people on the outside perceive our sport can be way off from what we intended it to be. I do know that there are other factors that affect the way the balls fly through the air. Plus I agree on the ball choppage...it is also due to minor imperfections with the ball itself, the seams or otherwise. I feel that barrels with muzzle breaks and holes in the barreling have far greater affect on the trajectory of the ball than rifling. Now about my name....I have a really cool logo that I have designed but it is way too big to post it after my postings, I haven't figured out how to reduce it to look like I originally designed it!! I was going to change the spelling of my name i.e. HuNta Killa' but on other discussion boards many people didn't know what it means. It would be cool though huh?! Kinda straight forward....hey give me a couple of days and I will come up with something controversial....heh heh heh (Sinister laugh). :D
HK
Good lookin' out!!