More WAS BS. [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

Butterfingers

07-31-2002, 09:49 PM

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117346&perpage=21&pagenumber=1

WAS claims that the e-mag was not shooting 20 BPS?

Anybody wanna take a shot at dissecting the Halo B E-mag vids then presenting the data on a silver platter.

Then I can say... Happy Gilmore Style, "Uh oh... sombody's faster" :)

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 09:55 PM

links bad

Butterfingers

07-31-2002, 10:01 PM

Correction

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117346&perpage=21&pagenumber=1

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 10:08 PM

i wanna know who the hell cares??

no one will EVER be able to shoot that fast so wtf???

what difference does it make if your gun can shoot 50 or a million, or if it makes a neat clickety clack when shot.. who really cares, i think its about time that the players step up and say this is enough, lets spend our time and money perfecting paint or perfecting a good hopper that doesnt cost an arm and a leg

Cliff

shartley

07-31-2002, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Cliffio
i wanna know who the hell cares??

no one will EVER be able to shoot that fast so wtf???

what difference does it make if your gun can shoot 50 or a million, or if it makes a neat clickety clack when shot.. who really cares, i think its about time that the players step up and say this is enough, lets spend our time and money perfecting paint or perfecting a good hopper that doesnt cost an arm and a leg

Cliff
I agree!

TRIAD

07-31-2002, 10:22 PM

^What he said.

Really, get me some straight-shooting paint, get me a lvl10 for my cocker, get me a smaller front block, i mean SMALL, get me a gun that runs at 25 psi, get me a barrel that is computer-controlled to fit your paint every time, get me a gun that takes wind velocity into account when shooting, get me a sight that gives range, get me a hopper that's inexpensive, put my hopper on a backpack, put my hopper as part of a really small gun, I DON'T NEED MORE BPS.

Arturus

07-31-2002, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Cliffio
i wanna know who the hell cares??

no one will EVER be able to shoot that fast so wtf???

what difference does it make if your gun can shoot 50 or a million, or if it makes a neat clickety clack when shot.. who really cares,

You're right, no one will ever be able to shoot that fast.

However it does matter to people, even if you believe 'them' to be irrational. For one, it is important to spread factual information and debunk myths in the paintball industry. From cockers having superior range, to the constant closed and open-bolt debate.

And people do care about the products they purchase. There are people out there who will spend large amounts of money, just to make sure they buy a superior product (in their mind).

The list of reasons go on and on. The debates may even be a matter of pride.

Originally posted by Cliffio
i think its about time that the players step up and say this is enough, lets spend our time and money perfecting paint or perfecting a good hopper that doesnt cost an arm and a leg

Cliff

Believe it or not, that's one of the reasons debates like this go on. So that the paintball industry will be put in a position where they will have to back up their claims - for the consumers to have the final say in the products they purchase.

Not here to start an argument, but to simply respond to your post and even agree on the major point of it.

:)

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by TRIAD
^What he said.

Really, get me some straight-shooting paint, get me a lvl10 for my cocker, get me a smaller front block, i mean SMALL, get me a gun that runs at 25 psi, get me a barrel that is computer-controlled to fit your paint every time, get me a gun that takes wind velocity into account when shooting, get me a sight that gives range, get me a hopper that's inexpensive, put my hopper on a backpack, put my hopper as part of a really small gun, I DON'T NEED MORE BPS.

pass that man...........your stoned

Kevmag

07-31-2002, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Cliffio
i wanna know who the hell cares??

no one will EVER be able to shoot that fast so wtf???

what difference does it make if your gun can shoot 50 or a million, or if it makes a neat clickety clack when shot.. who really cares, i think its about time that the players step up and say this is enough, lets spend our time and money perfecting paint or perfecting a good hopper that doesnt cost an arm and a leg

Cliff

You're just saying this b/c you shoot an Angel and your gun is much slower than a Timmy and E-Mag. ;) JUST KIDDING! JUST KIDDING! JUST KIDDING!

I absolutely agree with your statements. I'd love for someone to focus on making a quality paint that costs less than $40/case.

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 10:30 PM

art- i know what you are saying, but enough is enough, what is the point? if you can only shoot 11 bps yourself why even have a marker that will shoot 30 or 40 or whatever, and i see your logic but then again, why bother? seems to me this bps is a hype like LP was, hopefully it will pass and we can all go back to shooting our humble 7-13 bps markers

i know for example my angel is set on 12 bps, just because in a game i will never go over 10 or 11 so what good will the 20 bps that my angel CAN do do?

i mean im not arguing i agree with what you are saying, i think that its time people realize that you make the marker, its only gonna shoot as fast as your hopper will feed or as fast as you yourself can shoot it

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by Kevmag

You're just saying this b/c you shoot an Angel and your gun is much slower than a Timmy and E-Mag. ;) JUST KIDDING! JUST KIDDING! JUST KIDDING!

I absolutely agree with your statements. I'd love for someone to focus on making a quality paint that costs less than $40/case.

here is another side to that, for me no marker is faster, i shoot em all about the same.......so i pick the one i like:)

12bps is 12bps is 12bps is 12bps

Butterfingers

07-31-2002, 10:33 PM

It was a request... I would have never posted this on my own motivation cause im just too lazy :)

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 10:38 PM

i dont think anyone is blaming you

at least im not

:)

Cliff

its just people are stupid.....

i think there should be a poll on what people would like to see next, i dunno i would like some good paint that was under 50 bucks

xmetal2001

07-31-2002, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Cliffio
i wanna know who the hell cares??

no one will EVER be able to shoot that fast so wtf???

what difference does it make if your gun can shoot 50 or a million, or if it makes a neat clickety clack when shot.. who really cares, i think its about time that the players step up and say this is enough, lets spend our time and money perfecting paint or perfecting a good hopper that doesnt cost an arm and a leg

Cliff

Very true, but if you were gonna pay a LOT OF MONEY for a ferrari, or the same amount of money for a ferrari that goes faster, which would you choose. Although you would probably never go that fast(if your sane).

I totally agree that these 18bps, 20bps, 30bps claims shouldn't influence your decision on a marker much but it is always fun to say, "My Emag shot 20bps, wanna see a video?"

(Someone probably said exactly what I just said in this thread, but i just skimmed the posts)

TRIAD

07-31-2002, 10:40 PM

I'm not stoned, but I would like some $25 dollar a case stuff that's as good as my Big Ball.

Arturus

07-31-2002, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Cliffio
art- i know what you are saying, but enough is enough, what is the point? if you can only shoot 11 bps yourself why even have a marker that will shoot 30 or 40 or whatever, and i see your logic but then again, why bother? seems to me this bps is a hype like LP was, hopefully it will pass and we can all go back to shooting our humble 7-13 bps markers

i know for example my angel is set on 12 bps, just because in a game i will never go over 10 or 11 so what good will the 20 bps that my angel CAN do do?

i mean im not arguing i agree with what you are saying, i think that its time people realize that you make the marker, its only gonna shoot as fast as your hopper will feed or as fast as you yourself can shoot it

Pretty much agree with you on every point. ;)

I wouldn't mind, like someone mentioned above, quality paint at $40/2000 rnds. I'm paying a decent $60 for marbs/all-stars at the moment, but even that drains the pocket.

I for one just encourages debates like the one mentioned above to take place in open forums, for the public to see and judge for themselves. Although again, it'll be nicer if the debates and research dollars were focused on making the sport friendlier(cheaper) for the average consumer.

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by xmetal2001

Very true, but if you were gonna pay a LOT OF MONEY for a ferrari, or the same amount of money for a ferrari that goes faster, which would you choose. Although you would probably never go that fast(if your sane).

I totally agree that these 18bps, 20bps, 30bps claims shouldn't influence your decision on a marker much but it is always fun to say, "My Emag shot 20bps, wanna see a video?"

(Someone probably said exactly what I just said in this thread, but i just skimmed the posts)

the car thing is good but then again when you have that car and the speed limit is 30 what is the real difference between that and some station wagon? none 30 is 30

while there is a little difference between a speed limit and how fast a person can pull the trigger, if you can only go 20 then what good will 120 do you?

i mean i totally understand what everyone is saying, dont get me wrong, but i wanna know what good will this do us? is it really something that we all need? higher bps?

i think most would say no, but yet people that make these guns put the emphasis on bps when it plays no real factor when you cant shoot over 10, but like i said i understand what eveyrone is saying

Cliff

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 10:47 PM

i guess what im realling trying to say is that, bps is cool and all but any person in their right mind would sell their gun because another shoots faster

Cliff

Top Secret

07-31-2002, 11:01 PM

Still, he claimed that the Equalizer Timmy is the fastest gun on the planet, and wants proof otherwise. This man is very strange. Claims that he thought up the HAL trigger and wasn't aware of the emag system, guess he "isn't aware" of the 30bps Emagnum vid...

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 11:07 PM

because now 50% of all tourny markers wil be this timmy

yeah right, not if wdp has anything to say about it

Cliff

Webmaster

07-31-2002, 11:13 PM

Ill tell you why 20bps is better than say 13 - or 9...

sure you can maybe only keep up a 10-13 pbs rof consistantly - but what about BURSTS.

This game is often won by bursts. Who can get out, shoot, and get back in. When i burst I can spaz my hand and get one hell of good amount of paint out the end of the gun. How many do you get? 3? 5? 8? During that split second burst, that one extra ball just increases your chances of nailing your opponent... thats one reason why its important.

TRIAD

07-31-2002, 11:15 PM

OR AGD (sometime in the future)

kemikos

07-31-2002, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Cliffio
...lets spend our time and money perfecting paint...

Cliff

Not to pick nits with you, Cliff my man, but someone has perfected the paintball. They're called "Perfect Circle paintballs"; you get three guesses who makes them. :D

Unfortunately, they don't shoot significantly better than standard paint. At least the way I understand it (and without getting into a bunch of physics), there's not nearly enough of a performance increase to justify the extra cost, at least for paintball purposes.

Cliffio

07-31-2002, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by kemikos

Not to pick nits with you, Cliff my man, but someone has perfected the paintball. They're called "Perfect Circle paintballs"; you get three guesses who makes them. :D
and how much do those cost?

also webby, i know, i agree bursts are good, but who can burst that high?
not me, i would be lucky to get 11

i can only get 12 sittin here by myself no air no nothing

Cliff

edit--also im not saying perfect paint, im saying great paint for cheap, not perfectly round

kemikos

07-31-2002, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Cliffio

edit--also im not saying perfect paint, im saying great paint for cheap, not perfectly round

Ah. Yes, that makes more sense. I'm with you on that one. Although, come to think of it, paint prices have dropped drastically, even in the few years I've been playing. I expect the trend will continue, but I don't suppose it'll ever get as cheap as we'd like, hmm? :)

freek133

07-31-2002, 11:52 PM

Why do companys worry about bps when they know that nobody will ever shoot that fast?

the answer is simple, because life is a pissing contest. I am happy that agd is winning right now, then atleast the peole who are into the fastest shooting gun will look into agd and then discover that they have a heck of alot more to offer than bps.

Cliffio

08-01-2002, 12:15 AM

but according to him that timmy is faster

Cliff

freek133

08-01-2002, 01:31 AM

... and according to every ao'er the emag is faster.

Cliffio

08-01-2002, 01:55 AM

according to who? ao'ers? yeah ok.... this IS an agd website, lets not forget who we are dealing with, but if what he says is true, then that gun is faster, but wtf WHO CARES???

FooTemps

08-01-2002, 02:05 AM

I DO! I just want a gun to wow my friends. That means I want that 30 bps just so they can drooooooool! lol. JK!(kinda)

I would much much rather have CHEAPER high quality paint. I wish high quality paint could be 20 dolla per case.

Cliffio

08-01-2002, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by FooTemps
[B]I DO! I just want a gun to wow my friends. That means I want that 30 bps just so they can drooooooool!

you and freek in the same boat

WHOA DUDE YOUR GUN IS SET AT 45BPS, DUDE

gimme a break

i dont understand how people cant see that it means nothing

FooTemps

08-01-2002, 02:16 AM

Hahahaha, Didn't you see the jk? All I care about is putting my friends in the deadbox!

Cliffio

08-01-2002, 02:18 AM

yeah i saw it:)

you sugar crazyed foo

Miscue

08-01-2002, 02:44 AM

Why is 20 bps important? Cuz slack is good.

Say a gun maxes at 14. Another gun maxes at 20. Which one is more likely to be most reliable at 14 bps? The one that can do 20 bps and is sitting there waiting for the next ball... while the other is running in the red-line. Mechanical things work better when you are not running them to their limit.

You weigh 170 lbs. You wanna stand on suspension bridge that supports 170 lbs? or the one that supports 250?

SSMercury

08-01-2002, 03:49 AM

Why do companys worry about bps when they know that nobody will ever shoot that fast?

the answer is simple, because life is a pissing contest.

SO true, sadly.

I am happy that agd is winning right now, then atleast the peole who are into the fastest shooting gun will look into agd and then discover that they have a heck of alot more to offer than bps.

We can only pray.

manike

08-01-2002, 05:18 AM

I don't care about who is faster. As long as the gun is faster than me then that is just fine.

I do care A LOT about people making false claims and misleading people into spending more money on something they don't need rather than just getting out and playing.

I do care about hype. If you claim something to promote your product over others then you had better well be able to prove it!

It's like all the guys who claim to have achieved COLD fusion. Doesn't mean jack if you can't prove it to someone! It's all just vaporware.

We are very priveleged here in that AGD backs up a lot of their claims with good scientific data. Most manufacturers do not... because they CAN NOT!

manike

HyperSnyper

08-01-2002, 06:10 AM

Vern1

08-01-2002, 07:31 AM

Greetings,
Coming from the Timmi side, I see it as humorous.

Sure, I would like to be able to say: This Timmi right here is the fastest thing ON EARTH - it even outshoots a mini-gun. Just like any Brand X owner would like to say about theirs.

Shooting - and I use that term loosely - on FULL AUTO looks cool and is good to demonstrate or fully test the capabilities of a marker or hopper or warp, but has no use in a real paintball game.
They only allow semi-auto on insured fields and in tourneys, so why not concentrate on making it go fast in that mode?
Because that takes practice and money.
Some people can't afford to actually practice and make their fingers work that fast, so they have to have a crutch - the "gazillion BPS capability" of the marker - but, it MAY ACTUALLY help your mindset in a game. And the mental side of a game is still a big part of it.

The only people who will win in this argument are the paint manufacturers.

Will I get a WAS board for my Timmi? Definately Yes!
But I am also looking for an EMag to "play around with" - WAIT!! DID I JUST SAY THAT?????

Dragoon

08-01-2002, 10:07 AM

Manike hit the nail on the head.

Hype is worth squat. Prove what you can say or don't say it. The trouble with paintballers on the whole is they are willing to beleive whatever they hear as long as the sorce is "offical". Paintballers need to be more questioning. If everybody was then AGD would be the top dog in town.

Douglas

i-luv-my-rt

08-01-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Webmaster
Ill tell you why 20bps is better than say 13 - or 9...

sure you can maybe only keep up a 10-13 pbs rof consistantly - but what about BURSTS.

This game is often won by bursts. Who can get out, shoot, and get back in. When i burst I can spaz my hand and get one hell of good amount of paint out the end of the gun. How many do you get? 3? 5? 8? During that split second burst, that one extra ball just increases your chances of nailing your opponent... thats one reason why its important.

Webby- I somewhat agree with that statement.

I play with an amatuer A team that shoots all slide frame cockers. They snapshoot like hella good. We practice against Lockout(shooting raceguns), shockwave UK(matrix LCD's), and yea they can shoot more but we make those shots count. To me ROF doesnt really matter. I worry more about getting my gun tuned in and getting it consistent.

That is just me, it takes alot of practice to snap really good. It is easier as you say webby to through alot more paint at them and you have a better chance.

Cliffio- again you have come back with the great idea's. Again I agree with you, I can't shoot my angel close to as fast as my emag but it just work better for me in every game condition, the his ROF's arent needed.

Vegeta

08-01-2002, 11:32 AM

I woudl MUCH rather have paint costs cut down than have a faster shooting gun. I can barely afford PB, and it is mostly because of paint.After we get over hte hurdle of expensive paint then maybe more people will want faster guns...

Vegeta

08-01-2002, 11:38 AM

not that we don't want faster guns now....

but I mean I personally would not be able to afford to get electro and still play. Yes, I have the cahs for the gun, but I cannot afford the paint I shoot with it.

Paintball used to cost me about 7 bucks a day when I used a Talon with a 45 round hopper and a 200 round thing of paint from wal mart. I could afford that every weekend. Three years have gone by and I now need about 70$ a day minimum to play.

And paint is 90% of that. 7% is field costs and 3% is air.

SSMercury

08-01-2002, 12:06 PM

Bragging rights is two words Hyper. ;)

Actually, I don't think AGD would be the top company in paintball if everyone was well informed. Historically, mags DID chop paint more often than X marker, because you have to watch the trigger pull. And they had shootdown. Now, I don't think there's one thing that AGD hasn't solved that was a problem that plagued their guns. First was HPA, then the RT/retrovalve, and the level 10 pretty much let's you have all the fun you want. :) Oh, and all the other goodies like the Warp Feed. So, yeah, AGD would probably be best now, above and beyond the best if the level 10 had come out say 5 years ago.

However, I'm also in the cheaper quality paint group. I personally prefer some 55.00 case stuff. I'd LIKE to see it closer to 40.00 per case.

bigsarge72

08-02-2002, 02:48 PM

I still say most people are legends in their own minds when it comes to how fast they can actually shoot. I'm always reading about guys who are ripping strings of "12-14 balls per second". Ok, right. Let's see, say it together:
One-thousand one.
Did you just twitch your finger 14 times? Could you do it several times in a row?
I agree, once they hit 20bps, which no human being will ever hit, they should have started figuring out ways to make their markers cheaper without degrading the quality of the marker. That would be a better investment of their time and research dollars in my opinion.
Also, I'm all for the cheaper paint thing, although, when I started playing in '87, my friends and I used to split cases (we also shot less using splatmasters and PGPs), because it was more economical per hundred, but it still cost $100-$125 per case of 2500 rounds.
$60 for premium paint seems pretty cheap now-a-days.:D

i-luv-my-rt

08-02-2002, 03:19 PM

I get paint at about 30-35 bux a case so paint prices dont bother me.

I would pick a more accurate/consistent gun over a faster gun!!!

the jackal

08-02-2002, 10:20 PM

How exactly do electronic guns limit the bps? I assume the shots are spaced out evenly over a second so when set to 10bps the board will only allow the gun to be shot 6ms after the previous shot and when set to 20bps it will allow a shot 3ms after the previous shot, is this correct?

RT pRo AuToMaG

08-02-2002, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by bigsarge72
I still say most people are legends in their own minds when it comes to how fast they can actually shoot. I'm always reading about guys who are ripping strings of "12-14 balls per second". Ok, right. Let's see, say it together:
One-thousand one.
Did you just twitch your finger 14 times? Could you do it several times in a row?

it is different when you are shooting an actuall paintball marker playing a game and concentrating on shooting that fast then doing it in the air. why do you ask that people want 20 bps instead of 14 or 13? simple, because people want faster and better then everything else. would you rather a Ferrari or a 1971 ford? i'm guessing that you'd want the ferrari but the ferrari goes 190 and you will never go that fast so you will take the 1971 ford?? of course you wouldn't so why get a gun limited to 13 bps when you can get one that does 20 bps? you can do another comparison too. would you want a stereo with 15 speakers or one with 7? 7 is all you need for surround sound, but 15 would be alot nicer. basicly, it's bragging rights, showing off, and insurance. i wouldn't pay 1000 for a cocker that can do 13 when i can get a e-mag that is capible of 30.

MajorDamage

08-03-2002, 01:58 AM

I get Anarchy at $42 a case so Im good on paint costs

ENDO!

FooTemps

08-03-2002, 02:08 AM

but wouldn't you rather want paint in the 20-50 range instead of the 40-70 range?

MajorDamage

08-03-2002, 02:11 AM

Yeah, but If it were in the $20-$30 range I would want it in the $10-$15 range lol :). Im just saying I can handle $42 alot better than $65(altho I only get it for $42 cuz I get wholesale price for reffing)

ENDO!

FutureMagOwner

08-03-2002, 09:17 AM

manike they do make cold fusion :D :D :D
http://www.supercocker.com/markers/glacier.jpg

manike

08-03-2002, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
manike they do make cold fusion :D :D :D
http://www.supercocker.com/markers/glacier.jpg

OK, now fit THAT into a test tube :D

manike

DaFlip

08-03-2002, 10:57 AM

He lied. May that alone hurt his business.

But, I might forgive him for his ignorance seeing the other features on his board. Its still a great product. If people want to buy it, its their gun, their choice, their money.

DaFlip

Jonno06

08-03-2002, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Miscue
Why is 20 bps important? Cuz slack is good.

Say a gun maxes at 14. Another gun maxes at 20. Which one is more likely to be most reliable at 14 bps? The one that can do 20 bps and is sitting there waiting for the next ball... while the other is running in the red-line. Mechanical things work better when you are not running them to their limit.

You weigh 170 lbs. You wanna stand on suspension bridge that supports 170 lbs? or the one that supports 250?

i agree 110%!!!