full auto and burst modes cheap???

[jerminator]

I live in a small town and we dont see much tourny action here so i mostly play recball. i find my self switching to 3 rnd burst and even full auto every now and then. It doesnt help my game any i just enjoy it a little more now for the question.

Do you consider using full auto/burst modes cheap and why???

[Thordic]

It's not cheap, its unsafe. There is a reason why those modes are illegal at any well-run paintball tournament.

In modes such as burst and full auto, the liklihood of a serious injury goes up drastically.

Imagine shooting at someone in semi-auto, and their mask falls off. You may hit them one or times after it falls off just because you have that many balls in the air still.

With burst or full auto, the liklihood of you have 4-5 balls in the air is much higher. The more balls that are in the air, the higher the chance that one will hit a vital area (eye, mouth) and cause an injury.

Granted some players can shoot at a ROF equal to many guns Full Auto rate, but usually not in a sustained manner.

Full Auto and such is just dangerous. If you need proof, go do a search for the video where Tom shoots Turd on full auto. From close range, it tore the guys tshirt to shreds, and even with rubber padding underneath his stomach was still all red.

[Hexis]

I look at it his way. All guns are slightly different so may ROF deepends on the setup and user. However in a semi world they all require 1 full trigger cycle per shot. I think adding FA to that fix is like trying to walk into a pump game with a semi. I think that would also be cheap and unfair. So if you can find a place where everyone had full auto, only then would I think things were fair. However, I highly doubt that many people would want to play in an all full auto game.

[TheTramp]

I think it has its place in things like senarieo games. One or two players per squad can use it as though they were machine gunners or some such.

As far as regular rec games, if everyone agrees that modes are allowed then go for it.

[jerminator]

Originally posted by Thordic
It's not cheap, its unsafe. There is a reason why those modes are illegal at any well-run paintball tournament.



I never said in a tourny i strictly meant in recball and i dont quite understand exactly how it is "unsafe" besides if everyone adhears to the safety guidelines set you souldnt have prblems with eye or mouth shots ive been shot numerous time afeter saying hit by ball that were in the air right after the first one the big dif between full auto and semi is holding the trigger down or ripping on it

[Timmee]

I think the unsafe thing occurs when you have multiple balls in the air. If multiple balls hit the lens of the mask is quick succession, the fear is that one or more will punch the lense out from the frame, creating the serious risk of a permanent eye injury. The only time I intend to use F/A (or any other enhanced fire mode) is when I'm messing around at a targeting range. It's too much of a risk in ANY type of play (rec, tourney, scenario) to be safe.

As for semi, I recall hearing something about marker manufacturers attempting to agree on a bps cap of 13 in semi, to help prevent the same situation. I don't know if that's true or not, however.

[wes]

actually it would cost more becaues youd shoot more paint and break things :D if your going to use FA, i dont reccomend it but set it to like 5 bps or somthing i dont know or turn your velocity down to like 210ish I DONT KNOW ok

[FeelTheRT]

yes they are cheap to a certain extant, thats why there aren't any fields that allow them.

[JEDI]

I dont see a problem using 3 or six shot outside of tournaments. I can rip in semi mode a lot quicker any way. As far as balls in the air goes. I fire a lot of paint at you. If I hit you, chances are 3 or even 4 more may follow. Thats part of playing the game. I dont complain when it happens to me, and I hate to hear whiners when it happens to them. I dont think any one can dispute that.
I've fired snapshots that consist of 20+ shots from my back can. Is any one gonna tell me this is wrong? If you think it is, you haven't played competitive speedball. Modes dont belong in this type of play, but I think you can see the comparison.

[RetroEclipseMan]

Originally posted by JEDI
I've fired snapshots that consist of 20+ shots from my back can.

Dang. That's a good snap shot. I normally average about 2-3 balls per snap shot. maybe because it's i play front a lot. I agree that some player whine a bit about being shot too may times but in terms of recball where you are playing against people of all abilities there is a limit. That's why a lot of fields in washington have a 3 break rule and also no bunkering for rec ball at a lot of the fields i have played at.I remember playing my very first time and getting bunkered bad and almost never wanting to play again.

[MikeCouves]

20+ snapshots? That's not a snapshot, a snapshot is getting 2 maybe 3 shots off and hauling *** back into your bunker. Not hanging out like a gorilla for 6-7 seconds.

[zbody]

Anyone have any actual statistics on paintball injuries or is this just your opinions? I'll agree that it isn't cheap but the chances are the same as semi. You'll either get hurt or you won't.

[JEDI]

Have any of you guys ever fired an Emag? It doesn't take 10 seconds to shoot 20+ balls. You dont need to "hang out" to shoot that amount of paint. So yes, I would call that snap shooting. If your only job is to keep the opposite back player in, 20 balls is nothing. The point i'm trying to make is that full auto isn't used in tournament play, but todays guns come damn near it any way with semi alone.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by jerminator


I never said in a tourny i strictly meant in recball and i dont quite understand exactly how it is "unsafe" besides if everyone adhears to the safety guidelines set you souldnt have prblems with eye or mouth shots ive been shot numerous time afeter saying hit by ball that were in the air right after the first one the big dif between full auto and semi is holding the trigger down or ripping on it

Well, you don't want to believe its unsafe - and you don't want to hear us tell you you shouldn't do it - you want us to tell you "its OK, go ahead and do it." Well, we're not going to, because its not safe and it isn't OK. There have been dozens of experts who know a lot more about it than you look at it and the unanimous conclusion is ITS NOT SAFE.

But people like keep you keep saying "I'll be careful, and I'll just use it a little, and I won't buy an electro that doesn't have it" and that keeps pressuring the industry to provide it. Of course, when acidents happen YOU don't have the money or insurance to pay for it, so the victems sue AGD or whoever made the marker. And it doesn't matter if it didn't COME with full auto, if its an AGD marker and it puts out some guys eyes, it costs them - so they have to buy more insurance and the cost of things goes up.

Its a bad idea - its bad for the sport, its bad for the industry, its just all around not a good thing, and the excuse that you are just BORED and want something more exciting to do is childish. Find something else to do, but don't come here asking for absolution because you want to do something WE ALL KNOW IS UNSAFE.

THERE!

FatMan

[FatMan]

Originally posted by zbody
Anyone have any actual statistics on paintball injuries or is this just your opinions? I'll agree that it isn't cheap but the chances are the same as semi. You'll either get hurt or you won't.

Go talk to Tom about getting sued for eye injuries and the people in the industry who have looked very carefully at this with medical professionals and all agreed ITS NOT SAFE.

And the turn around and sell full auto anyway.

You can make the argument over and over again and say if *I* can't give you the proof then it might not exist, but the reality is the studies have been done, they don't have to keep doing them over and over again.

Go ask Tom why he won't sell full auto - why he removing burst modes.

FatMan

[FatMan]

Originally posted by JEDI
Have any of you guys ever fired an Emag? It doesn't take 10 seconds to shoot 20+ balls. You dont need to "hang out" to shoot that amount of paint. So yes, I would call that snap shooting. If your only job is to keep the opposite back player in, 20 balls is nothing. The point i'm trying to make is that full auto isn't used in tournament play, but todays guns come damn near it any way with semi alone.

OK, technically that's NOT a snap shot - but that is all besides the point. If you can do 20+ balls in semi and its the same thing as FA - why does anyone want FA? Answer that question and follow it to its logical conclusion and you see why FA is a lot more dangerous than semi.

FatMan

[zbody]

Anyone know where I could get ahold of one of these studies? I am not interested in getting in a debate whether or not full auto is safe, cheap, etc. I doubt that anyone's opinions will be changed here anyways. I am just looking for some unbiased research. Personally I had full auto available on my micro emagnum and didn't even use it. I could almost get the same results with the reactive trigger.

[Thordic]

Originally posted by zbody
I could almost get the same results with the reactive trigger.

Reactive trigger is illegal and unsafe as well.

As for getting the studies, I doubt they are published online, but use some common sense. Full auto puts more paint in the air at the same time, which leads to more impacts.

Not only do injuries increase, but so do problems such as bonus balling.

Do you enjoy bonus balling people? Because you will with FA or firing modes.

[zbody]

Originally posted by Thordic
use some common sense. Full auto puts more paint in the air at the same time, which leads to more impacts.


It really depends on what the rate of fire is set on full auto and how fast the semi shooter is pulling the trigger. Thanks for the help though. Anyone else with some real info?

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Thordic


Reactive trigger is illegal and unsafe as well.



Might want to be careful with that - there is more thanone def of a "reactive trigger" and one is OK, the other isn't. The trigger on the Automag RT or a RetroMag or an EMag in manual or hybrid mode is reactive, but not what you are talking about.

FatMan

[FatMan]

Originally posted by zbody


It really depends on what the rate of fire is set on full auto and how fast the semi shooter is pulling the trigger. Thanks for the help though. Anyone else with some real info?

GO ASK TOM - I believe he has references.

FatMan

[cphilip]

One fact here that needs to be understood is that if you accidently set off the trigger on a Semi Automatic marker for a breif moment of time only one ball comes out and if you accidently set off the trigger on a FA marker several balls come out. Increasing the likely hood of multiple hits and eye injuries. It's this Accidental situation that is most likely to cause the injury. And the probability goes up with the more balls in the air that one or even two of them will do damage. And these accidental releases are more likely to be at close range and more likely to strike someone without a mask on...You get it? We are not trying to debate teh use of it in actual play when people have their masks on. ITS THE ACCIDENTS THAT HAPPEN THAT MAKE IT UNSAFE. And if you can prevent an accident then it is no accident. Its on purpose. Leave it to the legal system to drive that one home on you. If it happens and we knew it could have happened and we allowed that possibility to exist anyway...we are now criminaly negligent. It's not safe and should be outlawed.

How in the world does anyone say they want to use it in Rec Ball and not Tournaments? Wher eis the difference? As if thats some kind of justification to be less safe in Rec Ball? Or that is would be Safer to do it in Rec ball? Nonsense!

In fact is more often, probability wise, to happen in rec ball! More people playing Rec. Sometimes less safety enforcement in Rec. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

[jerminator]

Originally posted by FatMan


Well, you don't want to believe its unsafe - and you don't want to hear us tell you you shouldn't do it - you want us to tell you "its OK, go ahead and do it." Well, we're not going to, because its not safe and it isn't OK. There have been dozens of experts who know a lot more about it than you look at it and the unanimous conclusion is ITS NOT SAFE.

But people like keep you keep saying "I'll be careful, and I'll just use it a little, and I won't buy an electro that doesn't have it" and that keeps pressuring the industry to provide it. Of course, when acidents happen YOU don't have the money or insurance to pay for it, so the victems sue AGD or whoever made the marker. And it doesn't matter if it didn't COME with full auto, if its an AGD marker and it puts out some guys eyes, it costs them - so they have to buy more insurance and the cost of things goes up.

Its a bad idea - its bad for the sport, its bad for the industry, its just all around not a good thing, and the excuse that you are just BORED and want something more exciting to do is childish. Find something else to do, but don't come here asking for absolution because you want to do something WE ALL KNOW IS UNSAFE.

THERE!

FatMan



OK well for starters I AM NOT coming here for absolution i simply wanted to get an opinion on whether or not using full auto is cheap or not so BACK OFF ok

I didn't start this thread to discuss the saftey issues of full auto and dont care how unsafe any of you consider it its your OPINION and you are entititled to it that doesnt mean i have to agree with it. AND ITS NOT PEOPLE LIKE ME that keep saying i just use it a little blah blah blah i dont say anything about it other then letting the people im playing with know that im using it. I would buy a electro if it didnt have full auto i dont realy care about fullauto on a marker i have an angel a minni mag a acouple of spyders i prefer to use the mag but the angel is easier on my air tank .
so THERE

[845]

Depends if it is a tank shooting full auto and theres a ref behind the gun it doesnt really scare me. If the field allows it so that everyone uses it it becomes a safety issue.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by jerminator

OK well for starters I AM NOT coming here for absolution i simply wanted to get an opinion on whether or not using full auto is cheap or not so BACK OFF ok

I didn't start this thread to discuss the saftey issues of full auto and dont care how unsafe any of you consider it its your OPINION and you are entititled to it that doesnt mean i have to agree with it. AND ITS NOT PEOPLE LIKE ME that keep saying i just use it a little blah blah blah i dont say anything about it other then letting the people im playing with know that im using it. I would buy a electro if it didnt have full auto i dont realy care about fullauto on a marker i have an angel a minni mag a acouple of spyders i prefer to use the mag but the angel is easier on my air tank .
so THERE

Bull! And no I won't back off! Clearly you want to avoid the real issue - which is safety (so, ignoring the fact that its unsafe, is it cheap? - sheesh!) And you can call it opinion all day long, it doesn't change a thing. Its all opinion until it bites you in the rear.

FatMan

[jerminator]

Originally posted by FatMan


Bull! And no I won't back off! Clearly you want to avoid the real issue - which is safety (so, ignoring the fact that its unsafe, is it cheap? - sheesh!) And you can call it opinion all day long, it doesn't change a thing. Its all opinion until it bites you in the rear.

FatMan

LOOK I said i put up the thread to get an OPINION and thats what i meant. I personaly don't see the what you problem is i sasked a simple QUESTION about whether its CHEAP NOT IF ITS UNSAFE. one of my markers has the capability of doing it and i will do so if i choose. What is your problem cant you just vote and go to the next thread istead of badgering me like im some dumb 12 year old who's mommy and daddy bought them there gun im not a moreon so plese back off

[FatMan]

Originally posted by jerminator


LOOK I said i put up the thread to get an OPINION and thats what i meant. I personaly don't see the what you problem is i sasked a simple QUESTION about whether its CHEAP NOT IF ITS UNSAFE. one of my markers has the capability of doing it and i will do so if i choose. What is your problem cant you just vote and go to the next thread istead of badgering me like im some dumb 12 year old who's mommy and daddy bought them there gun im not a moreon so plese back off

Cheap and unsafe. Cheap because it is unsafe. No I can't just vote and go to the next thread, and no I won't back off. It's what I do. I badger young morons until they get it through their thick skulls. It's unsafe! Don't care if you're a 22 year old whose mommy and daddy let him do whatever he wanted when he was 12, we don't play that way out here in the real world. Don't care what question you asked, this is the answer I'm giving. NO FULL AUTO.

Getting it yet?

FatMan

[cphilip]

Once you open the door to ask opinions you are going to get em. And your complaining that they are too broad and cross into a related area are going to go unheeded. Open up a pandora's box and you get sometimes what you wish you didn't. Sorry but your lamentations of trying to limit this discussion to only what you wanted to hear are not going to be honored. Don't like some of the opinions? Ignore em. I feel you probably will anyway. Complain because they do not support your views? Well those are gonna be ignored too. You opened the door and now you can't shut it.

But lets keep it clean and no name calling you guys.

[Hexis]

Opinions are like, um ... Armpits. (yeah, that will work)
Everyone has one, and everyone's stinks.

I agree with the older wiser crowd. Full Auto is cheap/unsafe and in no way would it help the game out.

[FutureMagOwner]

i didnt read all this stuff but ill post what i know for statistics on masks

in a test someone took a camera that records at a really fast rate(i cant remeber exactly how fast) but what happens when the ball his the mask is that the mask litteraly bends in. now thats just one ball now your shooting full auto at 20 bps or something at this guy. you have a heck of alot of paint in the air going at that guy to the point where its practically ball behind ball. then lets say a string of 5 or more all hit the mask in quick succession. do you think that mask is still very safe? if it isnt broken then it would certainly do so soon after creating an incredibly dangerous situation. i know you can shoot at 10 bps or so with semi on these electros but you should be able to tell when to stop and with full auto newbies and even pros could keep shooting where they wouldnt on semi and thats when you get situations like that happening more often.

[FatMan]

If you can do 20+ balls in semi and its the same thing as FA - why does anyone want FA? Answer that question and follow it to its logical conclusion and you see why FA is a lot more dangerous than semi.

FatMan [/B]

No one bothered to answer this question. So I will. Why do we want FA? Because I can hold my marker on aim much better during a long string if I don't have to pull the trigger on each pull. Just pull the trigger, hold on and aim.

So why is that more dangerous? Well, as was just pointed out, one ball hitting isn't too big a deal, but 10 balls hitting a spot one right after the other is much more likely to break a lens and to do damage. Heck, even if it just hits me in the legs its going to make a MUCH nastier bruise, and there's no need for that!

Don't think so - then how about this: what if we allow FA with a limit of 2bps? Would that work? No? Why not?

FatMan

[jerminator]

i totaly agree with you on the allow full auto on 2 bps it sounds great to me why not heck i would do it ii think it would make it a little more interesting


and my parents didnt let me do everything i wanted to when i was twelve

and i understand what you are all saying about the safety isue i do understand it i just dont unders stand why you are getting all bent out of shape about a stupid queastion

and i also understand about the pandoras box thing your right due you have a great point but there is no reason for n e one to get so distressed about it and call me immature or n e thing else know what i mean

[paintbattler]

its expensive..u shoot a lot

[paintslinger]

this reminds of an article that i read in an APG, where a kid was playing and he tripped and fell. his gun was on full auto had a hair trigger(think it was a bushy) and got set off. he ended up getting shot 8 times in his balls. he passed out and was carried off the field. now that is why full auto or any modes other than semi are not allowed at any respectible field.

[BajaBoy]

its not safe at all. I didnt read everything but here is my story. Ok My friend has a booyahh mag and was messing around with it in sup air, was using full auto bc we are all friend and just messing around (we know the reffs) and when that game was over he put his barrel plug in and but the gun down. Ok so now another kid comes out of the field and drops his pak on the gun. I was sitting right beside the thing when its going off. I got up in time be for the barrel plug came out.:rolleyes:

[-=Squid=-]

because its for wussies. Usually you can shoot faster in semi and you have more control over it anyways.

[RamboPreacher]

Originally posted by BajaBoy
its not safe at all. I didnt read everything but here is my story. Ok My friend has a booyahh mag and was messing around with it in sup air, was using full auto bc we are all friend and just messing around (we know the reffs) and when that game was over he put his barrel plug in and but the gun down. Ok so now another kid comes out of the field and drops his pak on the gun. I was sitting right beside the thing when its going off. I got up in time be for the barrel plug came out.:rolleyes: Exactly an example of what cphilip was talking about. I have never been one to accept some changes in paintball, just beacuse they might have been "popular" at one time or another. Paintball is about fun. It's not fun getting shot in the "safe" area, even if you don't get shot in the head/eye/face/nads/(insert other sensitive area of choice).
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