Electronic Autococker 3-Way

[Angry Man]

Alright, I'm a cocker owner (I like mags too though, don't get me wrong) and one thing that has always bothered me is how difficult it is to get an effective electro frame for a cocker. Once, due to some iffy timing, I shot through my safety (short stroke, of course). It was the shortest pull I'd ever seen on a non-electro marker...actually, the shortest I'd ever seen at all.

So I got to thinking that I could have a trigger pull that short if I had a short and precise enough 3 way. Why all the fuss over electro frames with standard 3 ways when you could just make an electro 3 way (basically an external solenoid i guess) that was basically infinitely short? It would be expensive, but nothing compared to the 500 dollar electro cocker kits I've seen....and timing would be tricky, but I'm sure it could be adjusted digitally or something, in fact that would be even more precise this way.

Why aren't there electronic autococker 3 ways? It seems like a good idea to me.

[Kweasi]

Erm. What do you think electro cockers use?

There are lots of electropneumatic 4way valves on the market. So many it's hard to keep track of them.

-Kweasi

[Angry Man]

The centerflag uses any standard 3 way.

And I'm not talking an electro frame, I'm talking a frame that sets off the three way in the same way the intelliframe sets of a revvy. Would this be feasable?

[TRIAD]

Dude, that's like what's already made, there isn't an actuating rod and coupler, just a wire running from the trigger frame to the selonoid.

[Telefragged]

If you want to tinker around with some of that stuff, the SandRidge ones are definitely the most advanced. The valves and ram are rated to over a billion cycles, and they're the fastest around. Granted they're a bit bulky, but the technology involved with making something that tough and that precise just ups the coolness factor 100 times!

[sniper1rfa]

it would work fine. but remember, the timing of a cocker is highly dependent on how fast you pull the trigger back. so if you did it right the trigger would be just as long.

[Kweasi]

Just FYI, sandridge doesn't make it's own solenoids, they're just plain jane mac valves, same units as are used in the brass eagle Rainmaker and AKALMP Excal.

All these units are based on automation industry parts, they're not really paintball specific, though some maunfacturuers have made modifications to suit paintball applications.

-Kweasi

[cledford]

But the Racegun guys have beat you to it. I purchased a Racegun kit at the IAO that has a solenoid based 5way that you replace the trigger linkage and 3(4) way with. The trigger frame (second half of kit) has a leaf type switch (Angel/Timmy like) in it that activiates the solenoid for pneumatic control, and trips an electronic ram that releases the sear.

It can be programmed using a PC or Palm Pilot. It cost $535 dollars. Came with a recharger, data link cable, CD, and NiMH battery. It is capible of cycling up to 22 cycles per second and has 4 different modes: classic (release the trigger to close bolt), semi (cycles gun completely for each trigger pull), turbo, and full-auto.

I purchased it for the full auto-mode. Look for some tests in the near future in which we evaluate the consistency of the 'cocker - as well as it's ability to feed (or not feed) at the higher ROFs :)

Can also be fitted with an ACE system. (Requires drilling cocker body.) The ACE is like that of the Timmy - 2 opposed eyes.

-Calvin

[nicad]

yall i think hes wanting to make the trigger hit a switch, which then does the work that the trigger would normally do.. no computer, no timing.. just an "electronically interfaced trigger".
This one was done well over a year ago... (http://www.deadlywind.com/project_110.html)
Angry Man you didnt mention how your wanting to drop the sear tho.. still mechanical? that takes some trigger throw too..

[Angry Man]

That link you posted was pretty cool and 14bps on a cocker is nothing to sneeze at. I didn't even know they could fire that fast. I don't have the mechanical/electrical skills to do something like that but it's cool to know that it's possible.

My original idea was simpler (I think) but probably less effective....an electronic 3 way that is set off with the exact same method as a mag's intellifeed. If you hold down an intellifed intelliframe the hopper keeps cycling until you let go. So the same idea would go with the electronic 3 way....the 3-way would remain in the "on" position while the trigger was held back and once it was released it would go back to normal. Just like a normal 3 way, but set off with an electronic switch instead of being pulled manually. This could be timed by adjusting where in the trigger pull the switch was set off (maybe you could move the switch in the grip frame from side to side a little to do this). This would be so cool! Btw, this would be with a slide trigger, not a hinge cause the switch would be placed under the trigged plate.

Anyone know where to buy a solenoid that would work like a cocker's 3 way and be converted into one?

[Angry Man]

Well, I found a solenoid store. These things look cool. Anyway, I'm wondering if I want a 3 way or 4 way solenoid. Here's a link to one that looks good:

http://www.valvestore.com/assolval55.html

[Kweasi]

24VDC and 1/4"NPT inputs? Maybe something a little less.....um....insane?

-Kweasi

[Angry Man]

Yeah, I didn't look at the item very carefully. I'd need a flipping battery pack to use it. Anyway, I can't really find anything smaller....if you know where to look that would be excellent, though. If I can pull this off for like 70 dollars it would be pretty sweet since these solenoids seem not to be as expensive as I thought.

[Kweasi]

Look at the valves already used in paintball. I'm afraid I don't know serial number off by heart, but I think Have Blue does. Look at MAC's, SMC's, parkers/skinners, even humpheys. But you're looking for the really small ones, and some that run at reasonable voltages, ie less than 9v.

-kweasi

[Angry Man]

Thanks. Btw, I will need a 4 way 2 position and NOT a 3 way valve, right? Just making sure.....

[nicad]

yes youll need a 4-way valve. some goon started the whole "3-way autocoker valve" typo/misinformation and its stuck for good.
to power-drive (ie- no spring/constant air return, etc..) a ram IN and OUT, you need a 4-way valve.

hope this helps..

out!

[Angry Man]

That does help, actually, although I called some pneumatics store an hour away from me and they beat you to it. Actually, I asked about a MAC 44 something or other mini-4 way valve that weighs 1.6 oz. It seems like a good bet if I could get hoses between it and my cocker that it would work. I'm also finalizing a design for this thing where the switch that turns on the solenoid will also be the trigger stop (which will be adjustable for timing and adjusting the trigger pull), and I can manually time the cocker to fire right before it.

[nerobro]

The Mark 3 cocker from PMS was a normal cocker with a microswitch setup on thr trigger to trip a solinoid. the trigger was something on the order of one mm. it still had a mechanical sear.

[Ken Kaniff]

huh huh huh....i want an electro autococker

[InvisibleBill]

I known that the guy in a pro shop in Portland oregon can do 14 bps on his autococker, but it is mechanical, no electronics. He also has a $1000+ cocker. He also play on Exile, Am B of the NPPL, which might have something to do with why his gun is so nice. Oh, and does sandridge modify, or do they make there own autococker?? IB.

[Reo5th]

Angry - you should start browsing through www.radioshack.com for an appropriate switch. I can help you dremel out the gripframe so you can mount the 9V battery and the switch just like my intelliframe. It'd be nice to see a picture though.

[the electrician]

I've had a homemade electro-cocker for three years. it hasn't always been the same though. at first I concentrated on a direct solenoid actuated sear, then a highly modified 4-way(the oracle cocker now uses the same design I used then). then I made a solenoid that mounted onto a frictionless 4-way. now I use a mac valve for the recocking and a direct solenoid actuated sear much like the race gun design, but a bit simpler.
if you really want the most bang for the least amount of buck, design a solenoid actuated sear and use an oracle cocker 4-way. this combination will give you a really short, light pull for for the least amount of money and the simplest circuit could be used to control it.not to mention everything could be contained in the grip.
if you go with a solenoid valve for the recock and still use the mechanical activation of the sear, it will never be as short or light as it could be the other way around.

[Angry Man]

Very impressive, the electrcician. That sounds really, really cool. I called up my local electronic/pneumatic warehouse place and they said that they sold MAC series 44 valves for 25-40 dollars. I figured I could build a whole electronic four way set up for around 50-60 dollars, which isn't that much more than the orracle four way. So if I do any electronic conversion that'll be a part of it.

I never really considered a sear that was activated by a solenoid since I would honestly have no idea how to build one. (My best bet would probably be taking apart a cheap spyder electro-frame.)

Also, my ultimate dream would be to combine the two processes (like you've done) but the one thing I've never been able to understand is how an electro cocker would be able to "time" itself. The two steps in the trigger pull have to be the exact right amount of time apart, and the pneumatics have to be actuated for just the right amount of time. A micro-switch in the grip (very end of the pull) would accomplish this prety well, and would also be a trigger stop, but I can't think of how I'd be able to combine the processes.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I'm very curious about how you built your homemade electro-cocker. I'm pretty new to valves, solenoids, and everything so I might not understand all of it, but I'd really like to know what you did, especially relating to timing and getting a a solenoid to set off the sear. I'm also very impressed.

[eljimbo]

Here's my beast. It uses Humphrey's H040-4e1 solenoid valves.

[spliff]

Your not going to decrease the trigger pull at all with your design. The new WGP 4ways can already be set incredibly short. The limiting factor in the trigger pull on an autococker is the sear/lug, not the pnuematic valve. Thats why the Nitroduck electro conversion as never popular, it still used a mechanical sear.

[EastAl]

i was always interested in an electro cocker, even back in the day. Angry Man has a little work ahead of him, but it looks like he is gonna make something work.

btw, my best bps was 16. that was with my own cocker, which i did all my own work to. you don't need an e-gun to shoot fast. but, it is a little easier!


Al

[nerobro]

the nitroduck conversion was never popular due to price.

the pull could be set less than one millimeter. So length wasn't the question. If you look at most electros that people actually shoot these days the pull is in the 1-3mm range. something signifigant. (and you can get a cocker in the 2-3mm range with the right 4way) Also note the nitro duck version did require timing. That's something the F5 didn't need. (that was the other electrococker at the time) Also note, that electros didn't 'catch on" untill long after this gun was put out of production.

the Mark3 autococker disappeared at about the same time as the mechanical matrix was being passed around skyball ;-) In other words... it was long dead before people really wanted what it had to offer.

Electrocockers time themseves by having timing values hard coded into them. They can control when both the recock and sear release happen. At least that's the case with the sandridge and raceframes. the centerflag and mark 3 both need to be mechanically timed.

[eljimbo]

You must be jesus if you can move your finger at 16bps...

[Vegeta]

Electro-Pnematic cockers have been around for a long time now.

[EastAl]

Originally posted by eljimbo
You must be jesus if you can move your finger at 16bps...

no, i just had a really smooth gun. everything done to it, was done for the express purpose of ripping off alot of balls fast. and shoot fast i could.

[eljimbo]

well your sidesteppping the fact that you didn't move your fingers at 16bps and therefore didn't shoot that fast. How did you measure it?
I worked on that electro cocker for about a year and a half. Its still not done yet.

[Angry Man]

Vegeta, retards have been around for a while too but you really are beyond anything else I've ever seen.

Eljimbo, that's INCREDIBLY cool looking. I'm really interesting in how you built that, I may email you about it later.

[EastAl]

Originally posted by eljimbo
well your sidesteppping the fact that you didn't move your fingers at 16bps and therefore didn't shoot that fast. How did you measure it?
I worked on that electro cocker for about a year and a half. Its still not done yet.

i never said my fingers weren't moving that fast. and i only did it once. a local tourny we were in was having a "Timed Shoot Out" to see who could empty a hopper fastest. they timed us, from the first shot fired, to the last. then they calculated your bps based off that time. granted it's not the most scientific of ways to do it. but, when i had two other runs at 15 bps, it wasn't too far fetched.
oh yeah, i won a case of paint, and some Scott Stalkers for that.

if you do your own work on your gun, your own upgrades, to how you want them, you can make your gun shoot anyway you want. especially when it has as many "upgradable" parts as a cocker. my gun was so "high strung", that few people could shoot it, and not chop balls, or short stroke every other shot. but, thats how i wanted it, because of my playing style.

[subbeh]

Originally posted by EastAl


i never said my fingers weren't moving that fast. and i only did it once. a local tourny we were in was having a "Timed Shoot Out" to see who could empty a hopper fastest. they timed us, from the first shot fired, to the last. then they calculated your bps based off that time. granted it's not the most scientific of ways to do it. but, when i had two other runs at 15 bps, it wasn't too far fetched.
oh yeah, i won a case of paint, and some Scott Stalkers for that.

if you do your own work on your gun, your own upgrades, to how you want them, you can make your gun shoot anyway you want. especially when it has as many "upgradable" parts as a cocker. my gun was so "high strung", that few people could shoot it, and not chop balls, or short stroke every other shot. but, thats how i wanted it, because of my playing style.

Did they assume two hundred balls for a hopper? Try fitting 200 balls into a revy...

[EastAl]

subbeh, no they actually counted out the balls. i think it was like 185, or 187 in my hopper. but, they had a bunch of ten round tubes ductaped together so eveyone would have the saem amount to shoot.

[Vegeta]

has anybody EVER been able to fit 200 balls in a VL loader?

no.

back to the topic of the electronic 3 way.
The same people that make the Mayhem make one. It offers the choice of operation in open and closed bolt mode... which seems liek a great opportunity to show that open/closed bolt doesn't matter in accuracy/distance. How much more proof does someone need when you beloved cockers shoots the same distance in closed mode as in open!

[7lash]

If you're looking for an electro cocker frame then this may be of interest -

http://www.planeteclipse.com/www2001/site/tech/info_ecli_blade.shtml

[flanders]

the probelm with closed bolt is that u can't get the ball to load faster then something like 24 bps, i think, do to the fact that th bolt spends more time closed then open

[Angry Man]

E-blade looks awesome, but I've heard the price will be really, really steep. As for mechanical limit of 24bps or 13bps or whatever everyone says I don't really mind. In my opinion, if it can shoot at least 13bps then it can shoot enough for me, since I'll never pull more than that; even walking an electro trigger 13bps is all I need. It's the trigger pull that matters to me.

As for a bolt open autococker, I think it would be kinda cool but I'd just take an impulse instead. Say what you will, but I like closed bolt operation, even if it's just cause it's cool.

[milf350]

Angry Man, you've heard very wrong. The E-Blade is going to end up costing about $365-$385 and it also includes a vision eye in that price. Not too bad if you ask me, I'm getting one when it comes out.

[7lash]

There is a Magnoptic(TM) trigger on the eBlade - an optical trigger with three way adjustment (front stop, rear stop and 'sloppyness') and a magnetic return.

The maximum ROF will depend upon the Cocker onto which the eBlade is fitted. By way of example, a standard Eclipse, Evolution or Black Magic Cocker will achieve in excess of 15bps (we've clocked one of our team guns at 20bps :D).

Retail cost is $389 for bright black and $399 for chrome.

[Angry Man]

Wow, I can't justify spending 400 right now but that sounds really, really sweet, since I'm a big fan of cockers but also love electro trigger pulls. As for now, I'm just gonna pick up a shorter mechanical 3 way to hold me over but those things look awesome and the price is pretty good. Still....400 is a lot compared to say, 70 for a spyder electro trigger (I've seen 50) but I know about the complexities involved in electro cockers so I'm not saying it's unjustified, just expensive.

[bryan]

I'm interested in finding out which solenoid the e blade uses...all the solenoids i could find were up to like 125 psi....is this too low for a cocker?

[milf350]

Here you go, they just put up more info on it.
http://www.planeteclipse.com/www2001/site/tech/info_ecli_eblade.shtml

[bryan]

thanx but i've already seen that.
I'm interested in who makes the solenoid and how does the sear get tripped?

[big E kingpin]

i work for a firealarm company, and one day i was working on a bell circut, and noticed that the bell worked off a magnito/silonoid type thing, so i stole one. got home and took a dremal to the plastic cocker trigger frame i had, and packed that sucker in there. the only draw back is the 3 9volt batteries it takes to fire it. the trigger is a micro switch i robbed out of a pullstation. the only part i actually had to buy was the mac valve. it works, its not the prettiest thing nor is it reliable at all, but someone said i couldnt make one nevermind make one out of parts i stole from the job.
whos laughing now
hahahaha

[the electrician]

solenoids are an item that there's not a whole lot of info on for the average person to find and read. you have to do some diggin' and do some research.

there are several solenoids available to use for direct actuation of a cocker sear. the trick is to find one that will do the job that is as small, and effecient as possible. in other words uses the least amount of current as possible. voltage is another consideration. because you don't have a portable high voltage source, you need to find a solenoid rated for a voltage that will work with your power source.

solenoids are rated in duty cycles. a solenoid rated a 10 volts, 20 watts, continuos duty(100% duty) means that if you give it 10 volts, you can leave it energized indefinitely and it will not overheat and lose power. the same solenoid given 20 volts, can only be energized for 25% of the time. a 25%duty cycle. in other words for evey one second it's energized, it has to be off for 3 seconds after that. now giving it 40 volts(4 times the nominal voltage of 10 volts) would give you a 6% duty cycle.

now the stroke of a solenoid effects it's power also. the longer the stroke the less power it has. this is true for both push and pull type solenoids. I beleive the e-blade uses a push type solenoid to push up on the front tip of the sear. and the race gun seems to use a push type to push a roller pin out of the way to let the sear fall. the design I use is a simple pull type solenoid that pulls the back of the sear directly down. it is a very simple and effective design.

so to make your own solenoid actuated sear you need to know how much force it takes to pull the sear out of the way of the hammer lug.
the shortest stroke to pull it out of the way and work reliably.
the shortest possible duty cycle that does not require overly high voltage.
and last but not least the voltage that will be used at this duty cycle and be low enough to be compatible with a 9 volt or other battery voltage available.

hopefully some of this info will help anyone who is interested in building their own direct solenoid actuated sear E-cocker.

[bryan]

you could make your own gun usin a timmy solenoid....79 bucks at paintballkingdom.com

[Styles]

The solenoids on the Eclipse E-Blade are manufactured by SMC, and i'd wager very similar(if not the same series) as a version used on the Race frame. The Race frame has had a couple different solenoid types available, but I believe they are all made by SMC. Angel LCDs also use an SMC solenoid, which are SYJ Series 5-way valves I believe.

[-=Squid=-]

So is there any sort of materials list, and step by step guide to do this with? Im gonna build a cocker, and something like this would be uber fun.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Up for a hell of an idea.

the electrician: you know your stuff man, info on all the different ways solenoids are used in the various cocker frames would be nice. Also, an exact list of the precise diagnostics of solenoids that can be used would be sweet. Do we need two to activate all parts of a cocker? Do we still need a board like an LED frame?

bryan- how would we do that exactly? not discounting the idea, just interested.

Vegeta- stop being a jerk, you're just acting like a loser. you don't like autocockers? (edited because it read as something else) then fine. then this thread has no use for you so stay out of the thread. This isn't just about making a cheap frame, it's fun creating our own stuff. You don't like the creativity, then piss off.

Keep it up guys, I am impressed and very interested.