Technical Roundtable Forum

[AGD]

AO,

The recent interest in the discussion surrounding the Wicked Air Sports claims on their new replacement board for the Timmy has sparked the creation of this forum. Many people thought it would be a good idea to have a "Consumer Reports" type forum where products could be evaluated by people with the knowledge to separate hype from fact.

My plan here is to invite a small group of highly knowledgeable members to dissect and comment on manufacturers claims for their products. The forum is named after the Arthurian Round Table where the best knights were assembled to discuss issues at hand.

I will chair the Table but not comment because I am biased as a manufacturer. I will set limits and control the tone of the forum so it does not get out of hand. Likewise other manufacturers are excluded from the Table.

Manufacturers are invited to comment and rebut comments made here and to provide data where necessary. Products to review will be submitted by forum members only.

I don't expect this forum to be active on a daily basis so I will stick a post in Paintball Talk when something hot is going on. My first three suggestions for Round Table members are Cledford, Miscue and Redkey. Any other members AO thinks are worthy should be suggested in posts below.

As usual we are trying something new here on AO so lets all work to make this a success. The only thing that can come out of this is better products for players.

AGD

[luke]

How about, Butterfingers and manike.

[TRIAD]

Jack and Coke did a nice test on hopper speeds, he may be valuable.

[cledford]

Butterfingers and Manike.

-Calvin

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by cledford
Butterfingers and Manike.

-Calvin

Agreed.

From Deep Blue posts, other forums and PM's I'd like to nominate nicad.

EDIT: I second the Have Blue nomination as well. Same reasons (sans PM) as above.

[beam]

Have Blue

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I vote me..well..because no one has ever wanted me for anything and I don't have any qualifications other than the fact that I'm poor because I buy everything even if it is total junk just to beat the hell out of it so i can tell people that it really is a piece of junk. Amen.

I can be the official Technical Roundtable "TEST MONKEY"!!!!


(btw, Thanks Bad_Knees)

[AGD]

Manike and Butterfingers are invited, do you accept? Have Blue manufactures his own stuff for Tribals so that might cause a conflict.

AGD

[MagDog68]

How about Mr. Bill Mills?

~Fred

[Havoc_online]

Hmmm.... I think I should of read BlackVCG's name but I did'nt.....he's my friend, Kayle may have given him a big kiss on the cheek but he is still on the level:p

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I also don't think any of the mods should be on the technical roundtable because they have enough to do without putting more work on their desks (unless they want to..then it's their decision)

[beam]

How about Jeffremiller and 314159 ?

[nippinout]

If we exclude ALL manufacturers due to a conflict of interest, we may be missing out on a lot of expertise.

Have Blue, although he makes goods for the Tribal, he has excellent knowledge of electronics. And as a mechanical engineer, he would make an excellent member of the round table. And he has a pressure transducer thingy and high speed photography equipment available. :)

There is a conflict of interest, but he manufactures for the Tribal. I don't see THAT much conflict here.


I would also like Tom to ask Curt of KM2 to the Round Table.

KM2 makes aftermarket boards, which is a conflict of interest. But Curt has a broad range of expertise. Like Have Blue, Curt is a mechanical engineer. As Curt put it, he just happened to get a computer science degree.

Curt is a uber-coder/electronics guru.

These two gentlemen may have conflicts of interest, but they are also very accomlished in their respective fields. If we exclude them, we would be missing a wealth of brain power.


Another great member would be manike. AGAIN, another mechanical engineer. And he makes pretty CAD models. :)

manike has great expertise in loaders, feed technology, and patents. He may not be as 1337 at coding, but manike would be an excellent contributor.

I hold these three gentlemen in high regard. I have grown to have great respect for them and their skills over the 2 years or so that I have known them (well, know them online).

Well, what do you guys think?

Wait, has anyone asked billmi? Bill is a bright guy with electronics skills. Maybe not ereet, but he has been testing equipment and over the years, Warpig.com seems to have grown to love data acquisition equipment for testing. :)

[Butterfingers]

I accept,

Im not really a manufacturer but rather a techie for Don. I play absolutely no part in making the products we sell.

I will hold my word, unless a question is directed to me by a member I will refrain from posting anything concerning products I am involved in.

I most strongly support the nomination of bill mills and the warpig crew.

I second the nomination for Curt of KM2 and Have Blue and 314159. Providing they follow the guidelines.

[BlackVCG]

I think if we try to exclude manufacturers, it will be removing A LOT of knowledgable people from this forum and we'll have to do it in a biased manner. The majority of the people out there that have access to equipment to find accurate empirical data are involved with a manufacturer of some sort or make their own products for paintball.

With that I don't think anyone should be excluded based upon their involvement in the paintball industry whatever it may be. If someone is going to do a test, they're going to have to explain how they did it, show their data and back do it well enough to convince the rest of the forum members. We all know damn well that WAS hasn't done any tests or accurate ones for that matter to prove his products can do what they claim. I think everyone that will be a member of this forum is smart enough to see through a manufacturers bias.

-Stephen

[luke]

I also vote for BlackVCG & RobAGD.

As far as manufactures go, I think ALL should be allowed. But there is a catch, you have to prove what you preach!

[Miscue]

I agree with BlackVCG... no reason to exclude people - especially those who might be some of the best contributors of info.

[Puddleglum]

Black VCG

[hitech]

Originally posted by MagDog68
How about Mr. Bill Mills?

I second that. :D

[hitech]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
I also don't think any of the mods should be on the technical roundtable...

That would exclude miscue, and it was his extremely well written post that started all of this. He HAS to be part of it, IMO. :D

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by hitech
That would exclude miscue, and it was his extremely well written post that started all of this. He HAS to be part of it, IMO. :D

I agree with including mods and certain invited industry people. We'll (AO and the Roundtable) just have to be wary of any biased opinions that may surface during some tests. Some may have to remove themselves from certains tests to ensure objectivity.

I also would like to agree with : Bill Mills and BlackVCG

EDIT: You know, it might just be easier/quicker to have the already verified members of this forum go through Deep Blue and the Tech forum and scan for people demonstrating high levels of applicable knowledge. Make a list from that?It'd be a shame to miss out on some people just because they don't post much.

[sniper1rfa]

have blue is a definate nominee, as would be punisher (if he comes to this board, i cant remember), manike, curt, pbjosh (he made a gun from scratch, remember?) and probably a couple people i am forgetting.

can i nominate myself? ;)

[epterry]

BlackVCG:cool:

[orangejulius]

I nominate (SP) glenn Palmers, and PBJosh
Glenns been giving good information and highly knownledgable about his and other products.
and PBJosh being a high Highly skilled cad drawer which can draw out stuff to show cool pictures :).

[AGD]

We might be able to allow very small manufacturers onboard like Have Blue but them might be asked to stand down on some investigations to avoid conflic of interest.

Glen is far to influencial and notable a character to have on the table but he is invited to comment here and the table will consider his ideas.

I expect the Roundtable to act in a restrained manner like a judge in a courtroom. Those not on the Table can make more "emotional" posts.

AGD

[FooTemps]

What about Doc Nickel? Other members of the tinkerer's guild may be useful also.

[ShinyGuy]

I see no reason to exclude any manufacturers simply due to marketshare. As has already been stated few people have the equipment set up to properly test paintball gear that don't have a financial interest in the industry. The point of the forum is to verify claims and we can do a much better job of doing that if the manufacturers can participate. We need to know what tests manufacturers base their claims on. The only people that can tell us that are the people that did the tests. As far as objectively testing competitors products, all of the people thus far mentioned have demonstrated the integrity to, at worst, simple not comment on a product that outproforms their own. If an individual is abusing his access to the forum he can be removed, just as on any of the other boards.

As I argued when fightclub was first formed, I don't believe it is necessary to restrict membership to a select few to maintain a high caliber of discourse. Deep Blue continues to function quite well as an open forum with proper moderation and I believe this forum could as well. If it is truely necessary to make this a limited testing ground with only one way comunication to the general public it would work far better as a magazine style web site. Such a site would be more readable then a flowing discussion and would allow better cataloguing of what has been verified how and of what methods of testing and review have been aplied to which claims.

[845]

Yes Doc Nickel it might also be a good idea to look on PBC, PBN etc and invite some of the smart people from those forums and make this a massive collection of good hype destroying info. Me I will just read and learn :D

[Webmaster]

Tom,

I feel that there is little reason to exclude posts from Manufactures. While some arent rocket scientest, they obviously have the brain power to create and sell product, which is more than we can say for 99.9% of us.

If this is to be a forum to help debunk myth and perpetuate truth - I dont see that there is any reason not include the people who make the items we will be discussing.

Since we are talking about scientic proofs of the performance of gear - we should welcome everyone. After all - if manufactures A claims product X can do Y - then he must be able to prove that is what it does - or prepare for others to prove him wrong.

Going back to my days in college and high school where we did lab work and process of developing therories and lab tests - when done correctly, anyone should be able to replicate the steps taken to reach a conclusion and have them all reach the same conclusion. Thats the whole point of a scientific process.

If manufacture A comes on, touting product X doing Y - and one of the persons on the forum shows a test to show that simply isnt true - then the manufacture has to come up with his burden of proof. To simply say something works "because it does" will only make that person look discrediable.

Long story short - allow them on.

[cledford]

I don't think Tom is suggesting we exclude the participation of anyone. Just that the "core" group be able to claim an unbiased position. We could include anyone who wants to participate - and vet their contributions with verification. That doesn't mean they will be the ones who write the reviews/articles.

Think of the US court system. Anyone can bring their case to the court and support their views, but Judges are independent or must remove themselves if associated with the problem. Lawyers who may or may not be associated with the matter at hand can present/contribute to the process - but aren't responsible for making the final call.

I think we'll NEED the help of many manufacturers and others will want to come and defend their claims - so everyone should be allowed to contribute to the process, but when the final reviews get written they should be by those who's motives can't be questioned.

We could have working threads in another forum where anyone can contribute, then when the round table writes a final opinion it can be posted here.

-Calvin

[cledford]

It might be a good idea to think Consumer Reports - the magazine. From what I've heard they accept no advertising from the products they review - so as to not appear compromised by advertising dollars.

The complete opposite can been seen in Paintball magazines. They do reviews all of the time, and never say a discouraging word about ANY product - because the are making money off those same manufacturers through advertisements. Very often the product "reviews" are little more then rewritten press releases with very little (or none) real testing of the claims.

I think we can raise the bar here - and maybe even SET STANDARDS moving forward for how new products are evaluated. We might be making paintball history - even when it seems all of the "big" advances have already been done.

Manufactures can help us conduct the tests, but we'll have to be able to do them independently for them to hold water.

-Calvin

[sniper1rfa]

hmmph, as long as I can participate, im happy.... naturally. ;) :D

[rudy]

here is my opinion
everyone should be able to post/comment. and absolutely no one should be allowed to edit/delete post. spelling mistakes or other wise. I have been in plenty of discussions in other fields then paintball. I know that editing / deleting post is a great way people cover up false claims and erase information that proved them wrong. I think this forum will only work well under those conditions.
as far as manufacturers they are quite often the only ones who can afford the equipment to actually test but we will just have to ask for data, expiremental procedure and everything that would go into proving an expirement is not flawed. anything less then that we will know not to weigh to much on.

[314159]

i wouldn't mind having Pand0ra in on this

[Cristobal]

I think there is a bit of confusion as to how exactly the proposed "round table" would work (I would be included in this category).

As far as I can tell, the round table board is here to provide a forum dedicated to performance reviews/dissections of manufactures' claims -- rather a truth-in-advertising forum to cut through [what would seem to be many] myths propagated in paintball. Making a dedicated place for this pursuit makes a lot of sense and I applaud the idea.

When it comes to the "Round Table Board" itself, things get a little confusing. I've seen a lot of great names thrown in for people who would be good contributors for this sort of endeavor and in many cases have the equipment to carry out rigorous testing. I'm not sure however, that everybody who might be a valid contributor necessarily must be on the board. Let me put forth my understanding of how things might work: From what I can tell, the "round table board" would be comprised of a relatively small group of core members who would (for lack of a better word) moderate the activities of the forum. They set the mission statement of the forum and provide and enforce guidelines for how experiments and testing should be done, in order to fulfill the mission statement.

When it comes to an open or closed nature, I vote for open, so that we have a free and unimpeded flow of ideas. There is a reason for working in teams in engineering -- the more minds that are able to look at a problem and bounce ideas off of each other the better the end result should be. (Provided, of course that there's leadership in place to ensure a successful end product). This is exactly what I see the "board" members as doing. They provide the leadership for the forum. If someone who has never posted on AO before wants to come in and run some tests on product X, then I say let them go right for it. But first, if you've got an idea for a test you want to run -- and have your results "published" on this forum -- then post here with your ideas because almost certainly someone is going to be able make some helpful comments. In this case the board members serve rather like "editors" and make sure that test methodology and procedure are sound and befitting of the lofty aims of the forum :D If the board members decide that product X is something the forum wants to look into officially then they can organize the resources on hand to make an even bigger investigation, or help the individual who proposed the testing of X conduct their investigation. Even if the forum doesn't want to officially endorse an investigation, I see no reason why the individual who proposed it could post the results here for critique, provided they have followed procedures in keeping with the rigors of the forum and whatever specific requirements the board might have set down.

In short, I think the actual "round table board members" should be individuals who have the time, commitment, and technical know-how to oversee the forum. I don't see anything wrong, however with having technically savvy "contributing editors" helping to write reports and conduct experiment on a regular or occasional basis. I myself would not want to be part of such a board, because I simply don't have the time, but I wouldn't mind helping and contributing (either in procedure or critical review) to various projects that lie within my field of understanding and my resources.

For a particular investigation, which might or might not involve various manufacturers, the board members could review the procedure and results and choose whether or not to grant it a sort of round table "seal of approval" which would signify that they felt it free from bias and of solid scientific value.

Whew! That's a lot of typing... If I've completely missed the point of the forum then please set me straight.


Also, when it comes to posting, I would say that anyone should be allowed to post and contribute to discussion threads, but that posts should be moderated for sufficient technical content. Given a little bit of time, the forum should sort itself out where people know what's expected when they post, and what would be frivolous or not of substance.

I would agree as well that posts should not be edit-able or delete-able. If someone makes claims, I don't want them to be able to got back and change them. I also don't want to see whole threads "disappear" like has happened elsewhere. Not allowing editing makes for a problem if you mis-type something. My suggestion is two-fold: in good scientific fashion, check what you write before you post! (now watch someone is going to point out all the errors in what I've just typed ;) ); and second, if possible it would be great if the software allowed editing, but only in a new field below the original text, and which would leave it un-altered.

Ok, I'm done for now :)

[paintbattler]

Originally posted by cledford
Butterfingers and Manike.

yeah but add tunaman

[ShinyGuy]

I think Cristobal hit the nail on the head. Lets keep the forum fundimentally open but have Editors instead on Moderaters.

[rudy]

I like the idea of only allowing editing to take place in a separate below the original box. or just post another message correcting yourself.

[Vegeta]

I also would like to see 31459... well... Pi.. in on this :).

I have a bit of technical knowledge on the operation of valves and solid state electronics/operation of solenoid/servos.

[manike]

I accept :) I'd also like to second Have Blue, Doc Nickel and Curt, all people I have known for quite a while and whom I really respect for their knowledge and understanding.

I'm currently a bit screwed for Net acess, my laptop decided to have melt down two days ago and I have lost a huge amount that I am trying to catch up with and sort out (including the further manik-e-mag work and original model/code! :eek: gutted) So access for me is going to be a little limited unless the laptop guy pulls some miracles this morning. Fingers crossed.

I also don't think letting manufacturers be involved should be an issue, as long as they don't hype their products. If they have valid evidence to back up their claims then that's the kind of stuff we want to see here. Just don't let it get into a 'head banging against wall' situation like over on PBN. I know for sure that If I had seen any evidence on some of WAS's claims I wouldn't be calling him.

Manufacturers should only be able to provide data on products of their own, not conjecture. Other people in the field should be able to pick that information apart (even if they have competing products).

Editors to cut out the waffle would be a nice touch...

manike

[Temo Vryce]

Well i don't have any nominations and everyone that should be seconded has been. I just wanted to wish you guys good luck with this. I hope it worls well because it's time that someone Dropped the Hammer and cleared up the hype that some manufacturers have been spreading.

[P8ntballerAK]

ME!!!

Ya I know I am not the most avid paintball player. But I do run the Alaska State Association of Paintball players. I have an extensive backround in electronics and one of my best skills is reverse engineering. I might not level on the technical side with the other guys but the few things i do have make me uniqe in many aspects.

1)First of I have some of the best troubleshooting and customer service skills that I have seen in the current computer market.

2)I don't like to take anything to heart unless its a well known proven fact and I try it for myself, I am a true member of the "take it as a grain of salt" club.

3) this is probably my most annoying and best sttribute yet, those of you who have seen me know it. I ask questions, lots of questions. I want to know every little detail about something and It often annoys people to no end. This is perfect for this board because it will help me bring to light some of the matters that the other people might be over looking.

I am a tinkerer at hart, logic and hands on skills is how I test most of my projects, I specialize in motorcycle mechanics, network development, computer troubleshooting and repair, and high powered electronic devices(ie: tvs, monitors, 220 appliances) and such. I went to school only for the computer skills I have developed, the rest I learned on my own.

thats pretty much it unless there are questions :D

[pbjosh]

Well,

I welcome any questions, and my brain and toys are in general free for testing.

I do not Manufacture anything at the moment, but I do sell and distribute. I do Design, tinker, and draw a ton of stuff up in AutoCAD.

I don't have a ton of time, but if nobody minds I can offer my testing and therories.

I personaly like to test and try, have some great #'s from using the Racegun grip to test stuff.

Josh

[shartley]

Anyone else think this Technical Roundtable is a flop? Let me explain if I may….

This has NOTHING to do with current members. It has to do with the SAME arguments that went up when Tom tried to do the “Fight Club”. (For those not familiar, use the SEARCH Feature.. good reading there.)

And now we have only ONE thread going on concerning a product and the last post was almost 3 weeks ago? Come on.. good idea, bad execution. I saw more Myth Busting being done when folks just brought up issues on the main forum.

Redkey posted a question a WEEK ago, and noone answered him. LOL Come on, he is a “member” and his question seemed a pretty logical one (and if I may.. Redkey… sounds fine to me. Go for it and see how it works.) but has sat for an entire week. LOL

If you want this to work, it needs more action.. more posts.. more content. Otherwise it is just a little club for the rest of AO to look in on, but thus far have no reason to even do so. No offense, but what has happened so far is a total waste of anyone’s time to even visit this particular forum.

Then the very last post in this forum was BlackVCG’s post/thread about proper use of this forum.

READ Before you Post in this Forum
There have lately been some threads started in this forum that don't belong here or even Deep Blue for that matter. This forum is only for highly technical discussions and at the moment a project is under way, so only project team members should be posting. Do NOT post questions in this forum about random paintball topics. I will delete them.
Well….. he brings up some good points. But why should THIS forum be any different than any other on AO lately? I have seen Non-Deep Blue posts in Deep Blue, Tech posts in Paintball Talk, Dealer posts in Paintball Talk, Classified posts in Paintball Talk, need I continue? And the rate at which they get moved to the appropriate forums has been slow to nonexistent at times… getting worse every day.

Now I don’t want Moderators coming back and saying how tough of a job they have, or that they don’t get paid for what they do, or any of the other excuses that seem to pop up when someone points out a VALID issue about AO and the things going on. I am not attacking Moderators. I am only pointing out that this forum should not get any more “special” treatment than any other.. and even less so since there seems to be virtually NOTHING going on here anyway.

Again, great idea, poor execution. Whenever I come here I get this little voice in my head saying “Move along, move along now. Nothing to see here.. Move along.” When I really WOULD like to see something…..

(and I would like to say again that I would LOVE to see Fight Club, then changed to Deep Blue, returned to what it USED to be… now THAT was good reading. It is not even a shadow of what it used to be now.)

[xmetal2001]

I totally agree with Shartley. I just cant type that many words:(
:)
Didnt think i'd ever say that.

[funwrecker]

i have an idea that i thought you might be able to accomplish. but if you make one, remember who gave you the idea!

I was thinking about taking the power feed system for the tippmann 98 that I saw on your web site, and turning it into a tommy gun like in the old gangster movies.I think it would fit perfectly where the stock air line runs up into the guts. maybe it will work, maybe it won't. who knows. just let me know!!!!!:cool:


PS. if I knew a better place to put this message I would.
please pass this on to RobAGD thanx:)

[flanders]

whats next on the list

id nominate my self, im not a prominant member on this forum, but am on many others so i don't know if im excluded

I have some great insight into most subjects, all be it most of them do end up destroying an idea or perhaps being indecipherable

but then again, nominating my self is rather vayne and well iresponsible

so ill nominate an obvius chioce Agd why not i think he has some bearing on this forum and paintball world, all be it im not shure what that is:D

hehe btw lets not let the next thread become overly redundant the last one imo became repetitive after a wile