Crossfire Regs

[Kaiser Bob]

This one I have always been curious about. Now there has been a big buzz about how Crossfire regs have the best flow over any other. They even use a video of an Angel at 11bps F/A with a liquid filled gauge. I think they could do better then that if they really wanted to push the envelope, so I think that one would be good to research.

[Jack & Coke]

Good suggestion!

I bought my crossfire (new reg design) based on it's exceptionally awesome price and having watched that video you mentioned.

I have been very happy with my tank, but it's only a preset.:(

88/4500 stub for $199

In anycase, I'd like to second your request!:)

Sice note: Since my tank is only 800 psi output, I'm not able to get any RT action on my Retro:mad: What's the most affordable and best performing adjustable tank?

[FooTemps]

I'm actually in the market for a tank and I think it would be great to test that for better references.

[BlueMagRT]

Most manufactures seem to claim the best something on their reg. is there some kind of test that can be done on a tank that could maybe give flow rate and consistency. i would be very interested to see a line up of tanks put through the same test(s).

[cledford]

Maybe we should start a single thread a single repository for suggested reports to explore doing.

Anyhow, regarding the cross fire test - without even thinking about it for a second, I noticed that you said they used an oil filled gauge. Oil filled gauges are know to be more accurate - but the liquid has a dampening effect on the movements of the needle. That is a little trick that anyone showing flow with an analog gauge will use as the lows don't always appear so low during rapid recharges :)

What we could do is put together a list of test protocols for markers, inline regs, air systems, and what ever else.

-Calvin

[the123]

To get the hard data we need. We would need a setup similar to Tom's Gun Dyno. We would have to attach the output of the bottle to a pressure sensor, attached to a computer, and software to graph the results. If we aren't doing this, then it's very hard to come to a factual conclusion about 1 regualtor.

Shouldn't this be locked to members of the round table?

[Muzikman]

Brian brings up a very good point. To get the best and most accurate results we need a high quality test bed. Something like Toms gun Dyno is the key. I am unsure of how much the entire unit would cost (seeing as the sensors are upwards of $200 a piece). But Tom, any chance a small group of us could rent time on your dyno for some of these tests?

[FordPrefect]

If someone did have a test station we could use (If Tom will let us use his) then it would help a LOT as far as proving/disproving mfg's claims.

[cledford]

We should plan on developing the testing tools ourselves. I'm sure Tom would be willing to provide guidance and advice - but unless he feels otherwise, it might not look cool for him to be loaning out equipment that is used to take closer looks at other manufacturers products. He'll have to weigh in himself on the matter...

[CenterFire]

Well, donggie and Butterfingers have dry-fired their emagnum'd emag at 30 bps, so if they adjusted the bps around while using a crossfire tank, they could keep raising it until the sound started to become weaker (record it and check it with some program or another).

Just a possibility

[fearc7]

i think someone wrote about a test like this. According to them, to test flow, you set up a buntch of tanks the same size next to eachother and turn the on/off on(as in closed). Next Open all the on/off valves and write down which tank runs out first, sec, and so on. The tank with the highest flow would run out first of coarse, because the air would get out faster. I did not make any tests however and am just repeating what some guy logically said.;)

[Timmee]

I believe that Have Blue is also working on a regulator dyno. I'm not sure how far along he is on it's construction, but he might also be able to help on this matter.

[Butterfingers]

We did the e-magnum demo on a wide open scuba tank.

No airsystem kept up. There was an instant 3-400 psi drop in output as soon as the trigger was depressed.

[steveg]

I noticed that you said they used an oil filled gauge. Oil filled gauges are know to be more accurate
Actually that is not correct. oil filled gauges are not inherently more accurate than dry gauges they are however
used exactly as you say, to dampen the gauge movement to protect it from damage caused by shock and vibration.

www.winters.ca is one source of gauges and information about gauges.

of note to us are the 1.25" spiral tube gauges.

[fearc7]

holy crap dude no tank can even come close to that. I don't even really think it would be possible to get it that much air.

[CenterFire]

So in other words Butter, you could lower the bps on full auto until the tank reg could keep up without dropping in pressure. The tank reg that could handle the most bps gets a medal :)

[cledford]

It looks like the Crossfire reg is a good "kick-off" project - so let's get started :) Maybe we can use this as a "working thread" and then once we're done have a Mod create a sticky thread for the final review and results. That way users coming here from other boards will be able to quickly navigate to the "good stuff" with out having to wade through our other communications.

Since this will be our first endeavor - we'll need to work out a framework (template) for testing that we can reuse moving forward.

I've got a couple of suggestions for things we need to do to get started:

1) Investigate the product and gather the claims.

-This includes determine the exact product model to test for the manufactures line. (I suggest the same one shown in the video at their website.)

-Compiling a list of claims and/or tests to be verified. I've gotten some from their website and also from the video of the Angel test (which should be recreated by us). I've attached a list of claims below.

-Research patents, if applicable. They claim in the video that the Crossfire system is based on patented design. I called them to get the patent number and was told that the designer (Chris Havlock) was out today. I did a couple of quick patent searches and couldn't find one related to a reg associated with either Crossfire or Havlock. (They did have one on record for a barrel.) I'll follow up on this as patents have all kinds of useful info in them :) They could be using someone else's patent - I only had time for a quick search today.

2. Obtain sample of the product. If someone doesn't have a 4500 Crossfire system I'm willing to purchase one for this endeavor.

3. Establish testing protocol. (NEED INPUT FROM OTHERS HERE)

- Should have stated purpose that adheres to the mission statement to keep us on track and focused.

- We should brain storm all testing options.

4. Conduct tests.

5. Write report.

These are the first things I can think of. Attached below is some of the information I've gathered so far. Included is the URL for Crossfire Inc. (has video of their "Angel" test), links to reviews of Crossfire products at PBReview (might get some useful insight from "everyday" users), and quoted claims from the Crossfire website and video.

-Calvin

http://www.crossfireinc.com/

http://www.pbreview.com/250/1/0/

http://www.pbreview.com/642/1/0/

"more shots per fill"

"patented design that achieves awesome recharge rates during rapid firing"

"virtually no drop off during 11bps"

"unmatched quality and testing"

"fastest reacting and most reliable systems on the market."

"If you are looking for a regulator that can keep up with any gun Crossfire should be your choice."

"We just don't say ours has the highest flow rate we prove it."

"We attend the tournaments with 6 Angels set at 11 balls a second on full auto. On these markers there are certified liquid filled gauges displaying the performance, along with all of the competitions regs. Now, some of these systems perform well, and we are not afraid to show that. WE BEAT THEM ALL !"

"Constant pressure is critical to your accuracy and you know that if you are playing with a system that can't keep up, you are not as effective."

"At Crossfire we do extensive testing on our product to make sure it is safe. That is why we had all of our valves tested by an independent lab to meet and exceed the standards set by the CGA and ASTM."

[Koosh]

I think we should take all manufacturer's claims with a grain of salt...

Would any self-respecting company actually say "buy our product, and you will be the laughing stock of the feild!" of course not, they are going to want to make their product sound the best as it can be. That should be a given, and I don't think we should criticize their attempt to do that. If we do, we should start with Brass Eagle's claims... the raptor being a "tournament grade marker" hah...

But then again, I do see why we would need to cut through the BS that the companies say, which is really the point of this forum... But if you look at it, EVERY air system pretty much makes the same claims of being the most consistant, and best quality... It'll be tough, be we should test EVERY system!

[magman007]

guys, remember, take it one step at a time. One variable at a time. and make sure everytihng is done in a controlled enviroment. same time after the fill, exact same fill to the exact same presure, exact same temperature in the test facility. there are alot of variables you have to eliminate to test the one variable you want to test. good luck guys. Also, please test the system x tank, and so fourth. also, i tihnk we need to test between adj and pre set.

[Butterfingers]

Don has some cool flow restrictor device that we could use to determine pressure dropoff at a particular setting.

Or we can just hook it up to a really really fast full automatic gun and see how much it drops off. :)

All we really need now are liquid filled gauges and the tanks and a whole lot of air.

[hubadlatimmy]

Ok despite any video's you people see on the net of the new crossfire regs I saw them all in person at the Chicago Open, and the Crossfire reg did not have the highest recharge rate of the tanks they had sitting on the table.

If you have never been to a major NPPL event this is where you are missing out they lay out about 7 brands of tanks on that table all with angels on full auto and after I picked each one up and tested them this is how they ranked if I remember correctly

1. Air America Armaggeddon, a proven performer and one of the simplest reg designs in the world, I personally know the owner of this company he also helped invent the Automag valve which is very similar to the Armageddon regualtor. I am now going to quote the exact words of the guy at the crossfire booth

Me "Why does the Armaggeddon have so little drop off compared to the Crossfire that you guys are suppose to be demonstrating"

Tech "Look at the price difference in the 2 systems that one is $450 our is $200 and as far as screw in's go ours is by far the best out there."


2. Smart Parts Maxflow- Another proven performer and one of the only systems you can run on a gun without using a inline reg, they are that consistent.

3. 68/4500 Crossfire screw in, Yes it does rank third out of everything else and is by far the best screw in tank to ever be on the market in terms of recharge.

4. Nitro Duck Tuffskin mega reg 68/4500- In all my experience nitro duck makes a tank that is more consistent that it is made for recharge rate, they are in no way bad tanks and for $500 they arent the best on the list but are right up there with the maxlfow in terms of consitency.

5. A.I.R- Made by WDP and one that from everything I hear is a big letdown in all departments, it's not that consistent and the recharge rate is actually pretty bad.

6. PMI 68/4500 screw in- 2nd best screw in tank on the market and alittle bit more expensive than the crossfire, and also not as consistent. I also learned from the owner of Air America that PMI has had more recalls in the paintball industry than any other company. I saw a kids tank threaded in the wrong direction 2 weeks ago and it was made by PMI

6. ACI 68/4500 screw in- What can I say when we get this low on the list it pretty much means it's worse than anything else on the market and isn't really worth buying.

Now when I tested them all the Armaggeddon won hands down not a problem in terms of recharge rate, and came in 2nd on consistency only to the maxflow. They are both great high end tanks but I prefere the Armaggeddon. I hope I set a few people strait with this post and I know it's long but it also has tons of info for all you people out there that have been misinformed by the internet.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by hubadlatimmy
...Now when I tested them all the Armaggeddon won hands down... ...I hope I set a few people strait with this post and I know it's long but it also has tons of info for all you people out there that have been misinformed by the internet.

Let me get this strait... you came to this conclusion just by how the gun feels in your hands shooting it full auto at only 11 bps?

Sheeesh, who needs a dyno when you can just hold down the trigger of an 11 bps full auto Angel?:rolleyes:

[Drizit]

He didn't do it by feel. he did it by the big oil filled guages attached to the guns. I to have seen that test at Skyball but they only had 4 setup. However the one thing i wonder about is the velosity settings of the guns in question, if the angel with the crossfire was set lower it would need less pressure then the others, and therefore shoot down less.

i have a crossfire 68/4500 if anyone around Toronto wants to do some test.

[rudy]

well I personally am going to need some numbers not this one is better then that one and so on. I want to know how much better. I want to be able to do a single test on a new system and get some numbers so that I can compare it to an older test. not gee well is seems like it was slower then the one i did the test on a few months back. also they all have to be compared on the same gun, same paint, same velocity if thats how you test. not only does velocity matter but some guns just hog more air to get the same velocity as others.

[magman007]

ok, heres a problem. Why are they testing on angels? if there using angels, and using preset tanks, im assuming htere using the angel minireg in the front correct? well we all kno that the minireg has horid recharge rate. I propose that if you test the tanks, you test them on an e-mag or some sort of retro valve. Or use an air america unireg. remember that the marker in question has to recharge as fast, if not faster than the tank can.

[Jack & Coke]

Good point...

[hubadlatimmy]

Ok I am not going on just how it felt I picked up every one and counted to 5 evenlly like 1 one thousand until I got to 5 on each tank. I should of said that earlier but I agree if theres any way we can do it on a gun with a better recharge rate we should try. I am willing to help in any way I can. I can get exact recharge rates and everything from dan on any of the air america tanks if you guys want. I know him pretty well and wouldn't mind telling him what we are doing.

[Doc Nickel]

Okay, two things I see here:

A) If I understand the Crossfire demo correctly, then they have, at the booth, a whole row of Angels, with various air systems, set at 11BPS/FA, correct?

All right- did anyone check to see if the dwell was the same on all of them? Were they set to the same velocity? LPR pressure? Did they all have the same valves and hammers? The same "volumizer" or lack thereof? Was the output of all the systems set the same? Was the output of all the Angel regs set the same?

Something as simple as pulling a single shim out of the LPR could drop the ram pressure 10 to 20 psi, which would consequently drop the output velocity, and thus the draw from the tank. All else, input pressure, dwell and ROF could be left exactly the same, and it'd take a trained ear to hear the insignificant difference in sound of the shot.

And B) Who "certified" these gauges? Oil-filled, as noted, doesn't by definition mean an accurate gauge- the oil merely damps oscillations of the needle. Point in fact, if one is testing an extremely fast "rapid drop" situation precisely as we're investigating, then one does NOT want a liquid filled gauge.

The damping of the fill would slow the needle to below that of the pressure spikes reaction, giving an artificially "low" (less deflection indicated than present) reading. And that right there makes me think the demonstration is somehow "rigged".

Additionally, something as simple as a tiny center-punch on the gauge input passage can do the same thing- restrict flow into and out of the gauge just enough that the extremes of the needle travel are damped out, giving a reading more 'stable' than the actual.

And finally, as a smidgen of evidence, when I was installing a Level 10 kit in a customer's RT, he had provided a 68/3K "32Degrees" screw-in tank, and a 90/4500 NitroDuck MicroReg. The 32D could NOT supply the L10 fast enough- anything over two shots per second would invaribly lead to the second shot being a "misfire" as if the bolt tripped. Single shots, slowly, were fine and up to full speed. Two rapid pulls resulted in one shot and one "pfft".

Swapping in the Nitro Duck immediately brought the system back- it kept up with the LX even into RT sweet-spot mode.

I did put a gauge on both tanks to check outputs, but I can't recall the exact numbers right now.

Doc.

[Butterfingers]

Another thing to consider is the fill pressure in the tanks.

If the crossfire was at 4500 psi and the other tanks were below 1000 obviously the crossfire would recharge faster. There is a greater pressure diffrential.

[magnj]

Im still waiting for the anwer to Jack and COkes question. I have a retro and a non adjustable tank. Im not gettin ne retro out of my gun. Ijust ordered a new on.off and reg seat ill see if that helps. What Is the cheapest adjustable tank?

[cledford]

It's obvious that with the number of posts already that Jack-n-Coke hit on a winner for the first test candidate.

In my previous posts I've suggested 2 types of threads - a "working" thread and a sticky "final" product. This was to keep the final reports clean and easy to find. With the great discussion going on here maybe we need 3 types: general discussion related to a test (testing suggestion, testing theories, post-report discussion,and other administrative stuff like "who has an XYZ to use", etc) the "working" thread (where only test protocol and data is posted), and the final work ("sticky" to make it easy for outsiders to find) This would allow us to have a fairly "clean" thread related to the actual testing of a subject, with the discussion in another concise area (to keep it all easy to follow). I don't think that it's practical to have dozens and dozens of posts on a subject in the actual "working" thread - but all of the input is great! (Especially Doc's post) So, to me, it's obvious we need all 3 types.

Please give me some feed back on this - I tend to be an "organizer" and lean towards being very detail oriented and anal about neatness - I realize not everyone is the same way and don't want to seem like I'm trying to take over the whole forum.

This review (Crossfire) is going to be our first, so along the way we're building processes that'll make the subsequent projects much easier. That's what I'm aiming for with different "classes" of threads - a forum that serves us well and one that is easy to navigate for whoever comes to see what we're up to.

-Calvin

[cledford]

Does anyone already own a Crossfire system? I just want the patent number off of the reg to research it at the USPTO. With patents are drawings of the product and I'd like to see what the inside of the reg looks like.

It is my understanding that they are not user serviceable. That doesn't mean I won't be able to get into mine once I get it :) but I'd like to start checking it out now.

According to the designer (Chris Havlock) the key to the "consistency" is something that he referred to as a "floating chip" in the reg - which he claimed (and so does the video) is a patented design. He didn't have the patent number (weird) and started acting really suspicious since I was asking about it. (At this point I decided that it would be better to explain the situation later...) Anyhow, no local pro-shop has the product for sale and I've been unable to find an online dealer that actually STOCKS them.

If anyone has the patent number please post it.

Later this evening I'd like to start a discussion on the actual testing that we'd like to accomplish. I'll post another message to this thread with my ideas.

-Calvin

[BlackVCG]

Calvin-

Here's the patent for the new Crossfire.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6056006'.WKU.&OS=PN/6056006&RS=PN/6056006

[nerobro]

I forsee a simple solution to this...

Hooking the reg up to the gun dyno with a pressure sensor setup on it's output. Hook that up to a gun, preferably something disgustingly inefficant like a matrix (to stress the regs ability to recharge) And fire the gun. just like testing any other reg.

That is the only way I can forsee getting a definitive answer.

now... something funny I came across when at the IAO tech confrence. The guys at centerflag were adement that flow rate and recharge rate were two completely different things. And flow rate was the important number...

Logically speaking, to recharge quickly you need really high flow rate. But you coudl have a lot of flow with a lot of pressure drop. Being that we want our systems recharged all the way between shots... pressure recovery is the thing to test for....

that leads back to the test... we need a gun, and a sensor. And something to reccord the sensor's results.

This thread could go on forever so long as we don't get any hard data....

[Cristobal]

BlackVCG -- the link doesn't work, but I think you're talking about US6056006.

I found the same patent by looking on Have Blue's site. Here's what I posted in the New Forum caveat... (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47284) thread:

From my post in the other thread

Looking on Have Blue's patently absurd (http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/index.html) page, I found this patent listed for the Crossfire reg: US6056006

Looking it up on the USPTO page I find that it lists the following:

United States Patent 6,056,006
Hagerty May 2, 2000

=Inventors: Hagerty; Phillip J. (Marshall, MI)
Assignee: Marshall Excelsior Company (Marshall, MI)
Appl. No.: 223099
Filed: December 30, 1998

It doesn't say Havlock, but in briefly skiming it I see it talks about some sort of "floating seal"

[Butterfingers]

Here are the tanks that I have available for comparison...

Nitro Duck SS4500

AA Raptor Rex

I suppose I can borrow a system X and other systems from Don.

I have a few testing suggestions...

Test Dropoff at 4500, 2500, 1500 psi tank pressure

Test Dropoff at 400, 800 psi output pressures

Let me know when we settle on a way to actually measure dropoff.

[TRIAD]

Send your tank into AA for 100 bucks they put on a raptor, 230 for a 'geddon, 250 for Apoc 2k

[Chupe]

has anyone used the 47/3000?

[cledford]

OK guys, I found a new Crossfire HP 68/4500 system online today. I will purchase it today and offer it up as the "test candidate."

I've made several posts and asked for some feedback about how to move forward. Obviously, we can't do much until the system arrives but plan. So lets get started - I would like some feedback to my suggestions in this thread and in the "Caveat" thread. Again, the process that we create with this review will be a good template for future endeavors.

Sometime today I will make the post I promised about my ideas for testing. The issue is that I know there are others out there with excellent ideas for conducting tests as well. WE NEED THOSE IDEAS!

Please post a process including equipment required and how you think the test should run. Even if the test isn't one that you can personally run - if you have an idea, please post a DETAILED description. I'd especially like to hear input by other table members.

This forum is a great idea and I'd like to see it start moving. We are waiting on the equipment, but that doesn't mean we can't start planning.

-Calvin

[Drizit]

i also have a crossfire 68/4500 that can be used for testing, however it would be best to keep it on this side of the border. it might not be a bad idea to test one that has seen some use, as the reg may brake down a bit after a while, as happens with the 32* reg. the reg was put on the tank at skyball this year, to replace at 32* reg that wouldn't recharge at more then about 1 ball every 2 seconds once the tank was below 2000psi so far the crossfire has kept up but we shal see what the test say.

[P8ntballerAK]

I have a imp;e way that just might work to measure flow. we will need a tube and a set of fins to hook up to the end of the tank. the tube will have to be big enough that the back pressure from opening the tank all the way up would be minimal. at the end of the tube set up the fins and make a paddle(like on a paddle boat) on one of the fins put a small piece of metal. after you open the tank the airflow will make the paddle start rotating, as it rotates the piece of metal on the one fin will contact another piece of metal and ad a number to the counter, the counter will determine how many RPM's the paddle is spinning, the tank with the faster RPM's will have the best flow.

[P8ntballerAK]

here is a simple yet crude way to measure recharge. we will need regulators to hook p to the end of the tanks. we willhave to find some way to put contacts on the regulator for a specific pressure. we start with the regulators closed so the psi = whatever we would like to test it at. then we reset the timeres and open the regulators the regulators. after we close the regulators off the timer starts and counts down until it meets the preset presure. once it hits that presure the contacts will meet and stop the timer. this will measure the recharge rate.

[Butterfingers]

I say we do the same test that crossfire did except this time with a faster gun.

Use the same oil filled gauges.

If we can prove that the crossfire tests were wrong or misleading using the same methods it will force them to explain themselves.

I have a reason to suspect the tests were done using diffrent tank pressures.

so we will test shootdown at various fill pressures 1000psi, 2000psi, 4500 psi ect...

[P8ntballerAK]

good point, I didnt specify what type of gauges for the simple fact that if the crossfire is to be tested as the "fastest flow rate" then we have to test other tanks as well to find out if thats true. I say try the same test with the top 5-10 air regs out there.

[AGD]

Guys,

The FIRST thing you do is get a written confirmation of what the product is supposed to do directly from the manufacturer. It is these claims that you will be testing against. If he claimed that they were the slowest recharging reg on the market we wouldn't be doing anything.

Then based on the claims, you formulate a strategy that gets posted here. Next the brilliant minds that surround this forum try to weasle why your test method isn't right or not conclusive. The manufacturer should be invited in on this.

After everyone has closed the testing loopholes someone does the test with someone ELSE watching for a second opinion. Then you post here and the fun begins.

As an example, here is a conversation I had with Nero:

tk: The Angel reg takes 9 sec to recharge (statement)
Ne: I can't believe that (skeptic)
Tk: See here it is on the Dyno (test)
Ne: Ok how does it work with a Palmer? (comparison)
Tk: see works fine (confirmation)
Ne: Well we have to test another angel to see if its the breed or just this one. (WEASLE loophole)
Tk: damn it I have to put the other one together... (me being a pain)
Tk: it does the same thing (more testing)
Ne: Your right (convincing outcome)

[P8ntballerAK]

ok thanks tom, that is what we needed was a guide. I will try to contact the makers of this reg and get a written statement from them. I would take their advertising but that goes through a few loops before it is published, so I want to see if i can get it from the mouth of the horse so there is no dispute on what was truly stated. thanks again tom.

while I am at this could you guys see if my 2 tests have holes(im sure they do) and punch as many as you can through them.

[Doc Nickel]

Well illustrated, Tom.

As for manufacturers claims, earlier posts described a video that supposedly demonstrated the reg's apparently superior flow rate. I haven't seen it, does anyone have a copy? That would do for a "manufacturers claim", I think.

After that, a testing protocol can be laid out.

Doc.

[Butterfingers]

I beleive that video resides on www.paintballchannel.com

left hand margin scroll down and find a format you like

[cledford]

Here they are again. These were taken as direct quotes from the Crossfire Inc. website and quotes from their video...

Doc - a not so easy to see video can be had from their website - doens't just show the Angel test (shows a lot of other crap too) but will give you an idea of what they do.

Lists the video and website URLs below also.

"more shots per fill"

"patented design that achieves awesome recharge rates during rapid firing"

"virtually no drop off during 11bps"

"unmatched quality and testing"

"fastest reacting and most reliable systems on the market."

"If you are looking for a regulator that can keep up with any gun Crossfire should be your choice."

"We just don't say ours has the highest flow rate we prove it."

"We attend the tournaments with 6 Angels set at 11 balls a second on full auto. On these markers there are certified liquid filled gauges displaying the performance, along with all of the competitions regs. Now, some of these systems perform well, and we are not afraid to show that. WE BEAT THEM ALL !"

"Constant pressure is critical to your accuracy and you know that if you are playing with a system that can't keep up, you are not as effective."

"At Crossfire we do extensive testing on our product to make sure it is safe. That is why we had all of our valves tested by an independent lab to meet and exceed the standards set by the CGA and ASTM."

http://www.crossfireinc.com/

http://www.pbreview.com/250/1/0/

http://www.pbreview.com/642/1/0/

[AGD]

I am going to stay involved with this for a bit to get the ball rolling.

With the claims above the two that stand out in my mind are:

"fastest reacting // on the market."

"We just don't say ours has the highest flow rate we prove it."

These two claims above the others state that the product exists at the very end of the performance spectrum. Since this is a highly desireable position and would certainly require engineering skill, it looks like a good thing to investigate.

I would get written confirmation that they in fact support these claims.

AGD

[cledford]

I don't know if they ship any documents with the new system that I bought that state these claims - I'll have to wait till it arrives.

I will call Crossfire/Chris back tomorrow to see what they will provide in writing. I'm just guessing - but it probably won't be a lot - the statements from their website might have to suffice.

-Calvin


Here is the full statement:

Crossfire has just added two new 4500psi regulators to its line. With unmatched quality and testing it is no wonder why Crossfire valves are the first choice of players looking for the fastest reacting and most reliable systems on the market.
Our red base regulator has a fixed output of 800psi. While the blue base has a fixed output pressure of 450psi.

If you are looking for a regulator that can keep up with any gun Crossfire should be your choice. We just don't say ours has the highest flow rate we prove it. We attend the tournaments with 6 Angels set at 11 balls a second on full auto. On these markers there are certified liquid filled gauges displaying the performance, along with all of the competitions regs. Now, some of these systems perform well, and we are not afraid to show that. WE BEAT THEM ALL ! Constant pressure is critical to your accuracy and you know that if you are playing with a system that can't keep up, you are not as effective.

At Crossfire we do extensive testing on our product to make sure it is safe. That is why we had all of our valves tested by an independent lab to meet and exceed the standards set by the CGA and ASTM.

[Dubstar112]

I have a crossfire LP out put reg, if I can help in any way just let me know.

Dana

[cledford]

Still waiting for the Crossfire system to arrive - will notify once it arrives.

-Calvin

[cledford]

I received my new Crossfire system via UPS last night. Unfortunately I was in class yesterday evening and the rental office was closed by the time I got home. I was unable to pick the system up until this morning - which I did. I purchased a 4500psi, 45Ci, high output (800 psi) model for a little over $200 dollars, including shipping.

Here are my impressions so far - yuck! I realize that what I'm getting ready to relate is subjective and not something that will necessarily have any impact on the performance claims we intend to test, but the information might be useful anyhow.

First, these guys aren't "rocket scientists" of paintball in my opinion - at least not in the shipping department. The IDIOTS who shipped the system just slapped a label on the standard (very thin) product box. The box had a hole it when I picked it up, with bottle fiber showing through. The bottle was fine, but it was still a scare. They basically wrapped the reg portion in bubble wrap, but the box it's self was super thin and tightly fit to the bottle - and there was no packing material at all! I bought the system directly from Crossfire, Inc, so you would think they'd know how to protect and ship an air system properly.

A quick visual review of the system shows some tell-tail signs of why the systems are so "reasonably" priced - they're made of cheap components! The fill nipple looks like some type of very cheap, soft metal that has a very poor plating on. It already started to rub off after the first fill! The Reg portion (which is anodized Red to indicate a 800 psi output system) arrived *pre-scratched* for me :) The assembly is horrible - they used teflon tape (A BIG no-no in my book) on the gauge and fill nipple and it looks like they cut it using their teeth. No one working in the HPA market should do such a shoddy job taping fittings and no one in the paintball HPA market should be using teflon tape at all - since it can come off inside the air system and blow through the marker until expensive solenoids are destroyed. It looks like they used red lock-tite to seal the burst disks - which makes me wonder what happens when the system over pressurizes and you need to replace one. In any event, the gook they used to seal the burst disks isn't what I'd call "professionally" applied.

Other items of note, the Crossfire Logo is on a cheap (already starting to peel) sticker and the bottle threads look to be plated in the same cheap process that was used on the nipple.

I can say that first appearances carry a lot of weight with me. Obviously we are not contemplating a beauty contest here, we aim to verify/validate the manufactures claims of performance. That having been said (even though I guess I should expect less in the "appearance" area based on what I paid) I would think that a conscientious manufacturer who was producing a product that outperformed it's peers would make more effort to have a system that didn't appear "cheap" in all outward respects.

Again these comments are subjective and have no bearing on the TECHNICAL test we plan to conduct - but I thought I'd share what I could today.

Tonight I'll post some pics of the system and start things rolling with the getting the test plan together.

Oh, BTW the system did not ship with ANY documentation at all. Nothing in writing about the performance claims or even a set of instructions. It did have a warrantee card enclosed.

-Calvin

[rudy]

just a question does every one really find teflon tape to be worse then locktite, I mean who says a particle of dried locktite isnt going to go through your gun and cause a reg seat to creep or mess up your soleniod. I personally have both and when it comes time to take a gun apart I prefer teflon because it is easier for me to clean up.

BTW i know a guy who works at crossfire It wouldnt surprise me if it was scratched already

[nerobro]

Well.. it sounds like you got a used/remanufactured reg. that doesnt' sound new.. it at least sounds abused....

What get's me is the claim ofmore shots. How do you get more shots from a regulator.... it meters out the air the gun asks for. it will ask the same of any reg. and get the same amount of air. That's a claim I'd throw out imediately..

[cledford]

Can't say for sure if it's remanufactured - but I 'm guessing not. I just don't think they put a lot of effort into their product. I would expect more wear if remanufactured, it jus looks like it'd been thrown around.

-Calvin

[hitech]

Originally posted by cledford
The assembly is horrible - they used teflon tape (A BIG no-no in my book) on the gauge and fill nipple...no one in the paintball HPA market should be using teflon tape at all - since it can come off inside the air system...

When I wanted to switch the gagues and fill nipple on my flatline to the other side and asked Tom what to seal them with. He said teflon tape. I have ALWAYS used teflon tape (over 15 years worth) and NEVER had a problem. As long as you know how to use it, it will not come off in the air stream. :D

[FreshmanBob]

I had a crossfire reg replace my old stainless apocalypse at IAO and i did notice the cheap looking plating but haven't had any problems. Also, I've never had any problems with teflon tape either. The only thing I didn't like about mine is the tight fit into the ASA.

[TRIAD]

A few months ago I dropped my crossfire reg on cement. It bent the lip on the tank that forms the o-ring groove. It worked fine after that, but just a couple weeks ago, I had it filled, and it leaked out overnight. I contacted Crossfire, and they said to send it back. Less than 10 days later, I have my tank back, with the top (silver) part of the reg replaced. The plating isn't the cheap chrome, it is a duller chrome that looks more durable. They didn't charge me a dime, all I had to do is get it there. It has a good recharge rate, and the tank works great. Combine that with absolutely amazing customer service, and you've got a great company. All you have to do is be very polite with them, and they'll help you with your problems. I never filled out my warranty card, I didn't include a receipt, they didn't call me, they didn't email me. Today, the tank just arrived at my door. THAT is what I call customer service, and THAT is why I will continue to reccomend Crossfire Nitrogen Systems to potential buyers.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by cledford
Oh, BTW the system did not ship with ANY documentation at all. Nothing in writing about the performance claims or even a set of instructions. It did have a warrantee card enclosed.

-Calvin

Where did you buy your tank from? I got mine from Mike at county paintball, and it came a LOT better than what you describe... No scratches, and it was packedged WAY nicer than you describe... maybe Crossfire is spending too much time developing their products, not getting their straight to customer business up and ready!

after about 3 months of use, my crossfire is still doing great! hell, I haven't even had to change the O-Ring on it! Maybe they just don't like you...

[Coaster]

could a flatline 4.5k and a Dyanflow be tested. Dynaflow said on this new reg would fluctuate 1/4 of the other regs(which they call the other best HPA systems) tested when on full auto. Dynaflow was ~50psi and others were ~200psi

[BlackVCG]

You know, I think JUST about everyone out there claims their system has best recharge rate/output consistency.

Take a look at ACI's ad for their BullDog System.

They claim:

Flow Rate - Fastest Available

Drop-Off Tolerance - Flatlined

Output Consistency - +/-0.0000

Now I've also seen ads for the WDP Air claiming it will never spike and it's so consistent that you can run it without a secondary front reg.

I'm sure there's others out there that claim to have the best reg. out there.

It's no doubt that the Crossfire reg. does recharge very fast, but is it the fastest? I know that's what we're trying to find out here, but I think with most of the manufacturers claiming to have the fastest system, I think this project should turn into just finding out which system is the fastest and have a basis on how we define fastest.

I'll draw out some ideas on how we should test the systems tomorrow.

[FreshmanBob]

alot of thats advertising gimmics

for instance
+/- 0.000 0.000 what?! they don't say psi or even give a unit, its just garble.

Same with flow rate, flow rate of what? Gas into or out of the tank?

As far as running a tank without a secondary reg you can do that with any tank! it might not be consistant but you can.

Also when are you guys gonna actually do some tests?

[BlackVCG]

I realize it's advertising gimmicks, but they're claiming the same thing as Crossfire and other manufacturers. Crossfire is the ONLY company to compare their system to others by showing a test.

Yes, any tank can be run without a secondary reg., but the AIR claims to be so consistant that there's no need for a secondary reg. That's what I was pointing at.

We'll do some tests once we setup a guideline for how we'll conduct the tests. I suppose we'll have to have someone with the test equipment and get them the tanks we plan on testing.

[nerobro]

When testing the 30bps dragun last friday we discovered something. We were using the older crossfire regs, the brass ones... Well they were unable to keep up with the dragun. The hyperflow screw in was cappable of keeping up with the dragun.

Just something to think about ;-) WE really need to get these regs on a bench and test them.

[the123]

HMM.. you should tell Dennis that. Right after you showed it at the orgy on co2. I left and didn't see you put the air on it. I saw him right after that and he said that wasn't possible with compressed air... i'm sure he'd be happy that it WAS possible and with his regulator. Well done.

[nerobro]

I'll call him today ;-)

[cledford]

OK guys, I've got the new crossfire system so it's time to get started with the testing. I REALLY NEED some detailed input/ideas specifically from the other round table members. Here are my suggestions regarding the test. The first is the easiest and most logical. I did not come up with this on my own, but think it is a great way to get started. The other 2 suggestions I have would not be as direct and would only be useful as extra validation of the primary test.

Test 1. Take an ASA adapter and mount a high quality (i.e.. not paintball quality) gauge. Drill a small hole in the ASA adapter to vent the gas and then just screw in the bottle. The output displayed on the gauge will show the flow rate. To test drop-off we would need to be able to block the small hole, then open it instantly. This would show us the pre-flow pressure, then upon open would show the drop off (if any) and flow. We can then compare several system's flows to see where Crossfire sits. Even adjustable systems could be checked - I've got an ASA to 1/8 NPT adapter - all you need to do is to put a QD fitting on it. The key when comparing systems is to insure that they all start out with similar output.

The simplest way to control the vent hole would be to install some sort of needle valve. (I need suggestions where to find these, McMaster Carr?) A different idea I had was to cobble together something using common paintball fittings found in a tool box. (At least mine) First, take an ASA adapter. Mine has 2 output ports. Get the high quality gauge (there is a link to gauges elsewhere in this thread) and put it into one port. (My ASA has 2.) I have an instant on/off valve threaded for 1/8npt I bought at a hardware store. I used to use it as an on/off for my Retro valve. It has male threads on one side, female on the other. Put the male threads into ASA. Take a 1/8npt port plug and drill the small hole into it. Put the plug into the female side of on/off fitting. Screw in the tank and open the valve. My idea is isn't neat but should work. Care would have to be taken to insure the on/off is not a bottleneck. Mine actually has a larger I/D then stainless hose which I think will be OK. I can post a digital pic of it - hopefully tonight.

Test 2. Take a gun that has full auto and fire it over a CED chronograph with a "high-quality" air source. (SCUBA would be cool also) Record and graph the shot strings. Then do the same with the marker connected to the Crossfire. Record shot strings and graph. Compare shootdown - if any exists.

Test 3. We need a bone stock angel with all settings put back to normal factory defaults. Run the Crossfire test. We can use an oil gauge first to accurately recreate their setup. If there is any difference (as Doc Nickel noted) they can be confronted about changing around the settings on the gun. We can also try the same test a second time using a non-oil filled gauge to illustrate the (or lack there of...) dampening effect.

We should focus on the first test. IF we can generate enough interest in the matter it is reasonable to go the next step further to rig up an electronic system to analyze the recharge curve. I would need help with this.

Let me know what you think,

-Calvin

[nerobro]

the only thing tha's really important is the recharge curve... with that one graph we could know. The test would take a few secconds and all the questions would be answered.

As for covering the claims of crossfire... A tank will contain a certian amount of energy, the regulator can not affect the amount of energy stored in a tank. So you can't magically get more shots from a tank by changing the regulator.

As for any other question.. we need to just get it on a dyno and read what it says.

[cledford]

2 things. I like the dyno idea, but...

We need to develop tests that average Joes can recreate themselves. Second, who's dyno? Can we build our own?

I think Tom's idea for this place is to not just dispell hype, but to teach ourselves and others how to do it for themselves.

Anyhow, I would be interested in using your dyno.

-Calvin

[cledford]

I found this which is an example of the valve I have at home. The differences are:

1. this one is 1/4npt, mine is 1/8
2. This one is only rated to 400psi :( I don't even know how many mine is rated for :confused:

I used mine on a Air America Raptor that was susposed to be set at ~800psi output without any problems - but that doesn't make it safe.

Anyhow, just an example of what I was suggesting.

They've got some cool Transmitter/Transducers there also.

-Calvin

[Redkey]

To have any useful data at least five crossfire regs would have to be tested. Testing just one is interesting... but you have no idea how it compares to the next one off the assembly line.

How is the roundtable supposed to work.

How is a test procedure decided on?
Who is supposed to do all this testing?
Will the owners of Crossfire Regs be willing to send them to a third party for testing?
Would any of the manufactures of the equipment be willing provide samples for testing to a thrid party?
How would the third party be decided on? How many people have the money, time or experience to put together a decent test setup. How will the quality of the third party data be verified?

Where will the test procedures be documented? Will the data be posted somewhere or will the person running the tests just say that A was better than B?

It's a nifty idea and if it works the way it's supposed to... vendors might not be so quick to make boastful statements they have not proven.

[spantol]

Redkey:

I've got a spare 88cu 4500psi Crossfire system that I won't be needing any time soon. I'd be more than happy to donate it to science for as long as you guys need it.

If you folks are interested, just give me an address, and it'll be on its way.

[Redkey]

Thanks... but, right now I am not setup to really test anything. My test setup is sitting in boxes ready to be assembled. The only reason I haven't put much time into building/finishing it is that once I have tested all my stuff I don't have easy access to any other gear. My gear is limited to autocockers, which, while interesting, represents only a small segment of the markers out there.

How do other people feel about sending their gear off to be tested by a third party with established credibilty and or references?

Again, thanks for the offer. I'll keep it in mind.

[spantol]

That's cool. The offer stands, and--to clarify--is extended to the entire roundtable. I'm a big fan of your stated mission, and I'd like to support your current endeavor in any way that I can.

As I have a near-total lack of technical expertise, I'd say that limits me to donating equipment for testing. :D

[cledford]

Originally posted by Redkey
To have any useful data at least five crossfire regs would have to be tested. Testing just one is interesting... but you have no idea how it compares to the next one off the assembly line.

Good suggestion. I think that we will have to consider this. 5 might be unreasonable for our resources, but you are right – more then one system should be tested.


Originally posted by Redkey
How is the roundtable supposed to work?

We are still working on the process right now. This is our first test – so it is a learning experience. At some point when the bugs are ironed out we will post a formal description of our activities. For right now here is how things are setup. We have developed a mission statement to guide our endeavors. The Round Table members were nominated by peers and selected by Tom. We will have 3 threads dedicated to each test: one general thread, one specifically related to testing procedures, and a final summery thread that is the official word of the Round Table. Everyone will is invited to post to the general thread, those conducting the actually tests or who have solid data can post to the testing thread, and it’s up in the air who will be allowed to post to the final thread. The Round Table will author and sign off on the official post, but it is likely that the some people will want to rebut certain things. We haven’t yet decided how to deal with that.


Originally posted by Redkey
How is a test procedure decided on?

Procedures are put forth by any forum member and are validated by their peers. Anyone can make a suggestion for testing by posting to the general thread. Once the tests are decided on they will then be officially posted to the testing thread. Just because a test is suggested does not mean it will make it to the actual testing phase – but everyone is encouraged to post ideas – although it is HIGHLY ADIVSED that test proposals be well thought out and described in detail.


Originally posted by Redkey
Who is supposed to do all this testing?

Anyone who has the time, desire and means to help. At least one member (or more) or the Round Table will be required to conduct the tests – but anyone else is free to do so as well. The goal with the experiments is to keep them as easy as possible to recreate – that way people anywhere who have the technical ability to gather the test components and follow the procedures with be able to validate the information for themselves. In some cases advanced testing will be conducted that may not be recreatable without some expense. These higher-level tests will only come after the basics tests have started to paint a picture. Even though the more advanced tests might not be recreatable by everyone due to the expense, the testing protocols will be plainly published for all to see and may recreated by those inclined to do so.


Originally posted by Redkey
Will the owners of Crossfire Regs be willing to send them to a third party for testing?

We are the “third party.” Tom Kaye has provided this forum for us – but aside from some initial guidance to get started will leave this to us to run ourselves. There is a rule that no major manufacturer may sit on the Round Table. This may be relaxed – but strict safe guards will be in place to insure integrity. Also, in keeping with Automags Online tradition, we will not just state opinions or factless beliefs – everything we say will be based on specific, published data that will come from tests the will be openly documented. It is easy to accuse people of bias, but hard to dispel accurate, factual information that was gained using open processes.


Originally posted by Redkey
Would any of the manufactures of the equipment be willing provide samples for testing to a third party?

Not sure – but good suggestion. I’m going to contact Crossfire and see. I will send them a formal, certified letter. If their claims are truthful them they should be happy to help with the process. In reality, I’m skeptical that we’re going to get much help in the form of samples. Luckily we can still buy our own :)


Originally posted by Redkey
How would the third party be decided on?

Not necessary – unless the manufacturer wants a different opinion. They can go to whom ever they like – although any information posted must adhere to the same rules - it must be factual and gathered using published, recreatable protocols.


Originally posted by Redkey ]
How many people have the money, time or experience to put together a decent test setup?

I’m going to do my best. Hopefully other enthusiasts will do so as well. Ultimately, I’m guessing that there will be different people who invest in the gear for different types of testing – this will eliminate a single person from having to obtain everything.


Originally posted by Redkey
How will the quality of the third party data be verified?

Require that it adhere to the rules that ours will abide by.


Originally posted by Redkey
Where will the test procedures be documented? Will the data be posted somewhere or will the person running the tests just say that A was better than B?

The test procedures will be documented in both the testing thread and in the final findings thread.

The data will be posted. We will be relying on the data to tell the story for us. Opinions can be disputed, reality can’t. The simple fact is that this is a validation process. Someone (a manufacturer) claims something they produce provides a certain level of performance or value. We will devise common sense tests to verify the those claims and then post our results for the world to see. They (the manufacturer) will then be invited to discuss how they made their determinations and explain how or why certain claims could not be validated if that is the case.


Originally posted by Redkey ]
It's a nifty idea and if it works the way it's supposed to... vendors might not be so quick to make boastful statements they have not proven.


That is the plan :)

Thank you for your post. In answering your questions I think I’ve started the nucleus of a FAQ – thanks for the help and suggestions.

-Calvin

[cledford]

I've been working with Winters on obtaining some high quality gauges for this project.

They are sending me samples of their spiral tube gauges. These aren't accurate enough or large enough (for video or pictures) for our needs so they are also working on finding us a Bourdon tube model.

The model that looks like it would work the best for us is their premium, 2.5" face, 0-1500psi, liquid-filled or dry model. The only problem at this point is that in the rest of the HPA industry they use 1/4NPT for pressures over 1000psi. We use 1/8NPT for everything in paintball and they don't have a 1/8NPT model readily available. They are looking at changing the input to 1/8 or providing a 1/4-1/8 adapter for us. I plan on getting one of each - liquid -filled and dry.

I've learned some cool things about gauges from this experience. On of the more interesting tidbits is that we can get the Bourdon tube gauges certified for accuracy which will be useful.

I going to throw together the ASA tester described in one of my previous post this weekend using a spiral tube gauge and see how it works. I want to wait until I get the good ones before really testing.

-Calvin

[314159]

Originally posted by nerobro
I'll call him today ;-)

i forgot to tell you i talked to the centerflag guy a little about it at the event. (he was also the guy that sold me my first paintball gun at fox river games ^_^).


about the idea of sending in used tanks to get a wider range of data, used regs vs new regs will probilly give you different data (broken in/amount of "luvin"....) =/. i also think that we might come into problems borrowing tanks from people.

i have an ideas to check the flow of a tank:

air america has a device to test regs w/co2 threads. you have a knob that controlls the flow that you dump the tank at, and a guage. because there should be a relitavley constant flow (up untill a point), the guage is not too picky as it's responce speed.
-fill up a tank to a given pressure
-set the tank to a given output
-start with a low flow rate of the dumping of the tank
-start a timer when you start dumping the tank controlling the flow, stop the timer when the tank's output drops out of a certain threshold (maby 10% of the output pressure). if the tank kept up, the tank pressure will be (10%) of the output pressure, record this time, THIS IS YOUR MEASUREMENT OF FLOW
-fill tank again, increase flow rate a little, repeat previous step. if the tank's output falls from (10%) of it's input before the tank has emptied, you have surpassed the maximum flow of the tank, use the lowest time obtained previously (with a tank pressure of (10%) of it's output, an "empty" tank). THIS IS YOUR MEASUREMENT OF MAXIMUM FLOW.

you can call this number something like cc*psi/seconds

[Redkey]

**ooppss.. this sat open too long and belongs up a couple messages.

The hardest part of this is coming up with test methods than anyone can do at home. Every thing I dream up uses moderately high speed data collection, strain gages, optical sensors and pressure transducers.

For those doing testing at home there should be a list of suggested equipment. If we say that XXX pressure gauge from YYY manufacturer should be used for all home brew tests between 100 and 500 psi it might with the consistancy of the data.

Also, speaking of pressure gauges, there should be some general guide lines for using the proper gauge. For my work we use a 10% rule of thumb... ie a 100 lb load cell should not measure anything less than 10 lbs. This way we would avoid having people measuring 60 psi with a 3,000 psi gauge.

I'm more than happy to assist anyone with their test procedures and give them suggestions on how to make sure their test system is doing what they think it is, does anyone know what a MSA is?. I'm also willing to perform statistical analysis on any data that people collect and show them how to present the data in a semi-professional manner.

Rebuts to any report/data could be submitted, answered and then added to the final report/data thread.

When I say "Third Party"... would a member of this group be willing to send their paintball gear to another member of the group to be tested?

Fun stuff, thank *you* for putting effort into this.

[Redkey]

Nice simple idea...


Originally posted by 314159


-start a timer when you start dumping the tank controlling the flow, stop the timer when the tank's output drops out of a certain threshold (maby 10% of the output pressure). if the tank kept up, the tank pressure will be (10%) of the output pressure, record this time, THIS IS YOUR MEASUREMENT OF FLOW


At the end of this test the tank pressure should be 90% of the output pressure. Say your output pressure is 300 psi... when this pressure drops 10% the test is ended. 300 psi - 10% (30 psi) = 270 psi = approx residual pressure in tank.



Originally posted by 314159


-fill tank again, increase flow rate a little, repeat previous step. if the tank's output falls from (10%) of it's input before the tank has emptied, you have surpassed the maximum flow of the tank, use the lowest time obtained previously (with a tank pressure of (10%) of it's output, an "empty" tank). THIS IS YOUR MEASUREMENT OF MAXIMUM FLOW.

you can call this number something like cc*psi/seconds

Dumping this much air from a tank will cause it to cool... will that be enough to impact the data? I don't know.

You'll need a way to measure the flow rates at each setting so that you can repeat the test several times and average the results. The problem with controlling the flow with a valve is that you really have no way to make sure that the flow rate is the same as when you ran the tests last week.

for your units...
seconds from stopwatch
psi from output pressure?
cc from?

what about doing the test slightly different....
How about just dumping air from the tank for 10 seconds and then measure the remaining pressure? You'll have to have a good gauge on the tank to get accurate readings. You'll also need an above average valve system that opens 100% almost instantly. Regs with more flow will dump more air and show a larger pressure drop.

just a thought.

[314159]

Originally posted by Redkey
what about doing the test slightly different....
How about just dumping air from the tank for 10 seconds and then measure the remaining pressure? You'll have to have a good gauge on the tank to get accurate readings. You'll also need an above average valve system that opens 100% almost instantly. Regs with more flow will dump more air and show a larger pressure drop.

unless a tank can provide pressure close to the regulated pressure it is supposed to kick out, the reg is not dooing it's job. i think that the test should be for flow rate within a certain bounds of the pressure that it is supposed to regulate.

[Pand0ra]

Why don't u simply use a ... flowmeter? :rolleyes:

I guess you can simply open the bottle and check what is the max flowrate, and see if it changes with the pressure in the tank.

I don't see why you need to control the flow. The regulator works always at it's fastest speed when it tries to correct a drop of pressure at the output.
An output pressure at 0psi is just the worst case.

Anyways, you can't determine an output pressure once for all. It changes too much with the configuration of the marker, the rate of fire, the size of the fittings, and so on. Even the temperature will influence the result.

To avoid a decrease of temperature in the tank it would be wise to put a valve after the flow meter, and cut the flow after a few seconds to allow the temperature inside the tank to stabilize, then reopen the valve, and so on...

Edit: Get rid of those jauges. Remove them, and put at the place a good pressure sensor. At least this way the measurement will be reliable (and not in the range of 10-20% of precision).

Just my 0.01€ :)

@++

[Redkey]

Originally posted by Pand0ra
Why don't u simply use a ... flowmeter? :rolleyes:

Good accurate flow meters that can handle 300 to 800 psi are not cheap.

Originally posted by Pand0ra

I don't see why you need to control the flow. The regulator works always at it's fastest speed when it tries to correct a drop of pressure at the output.
An output pressure at 0psi is just the worst case.

By controlling the flow you should be able to determine the point at which the reg cannot keep up.

Originally posted by Pand0ra

Anyways, you can't determine an output pressure once for all. It changes too much with the configuration of the marker, the rate of fire, the size of the fittings, and so on. Even the temperature will influence the result.

this is true... that's why the tests should be done off gun. There are so many possible combinations of parts on markers that it would be impossible to extract meaningfull data if everyone tested their own gun.

All we are doing is looking at the regs ability to provide a certain amount of airflow at a certain pressure level. It doesn't matter if the gun is a spyder, a sandridge or a pneumatic nailer. Having said that... is the regs static airflow (constant stream of air) the same as it's dynamic airflow (on off on off on off)?

Originally posted by Pand0ra

Edit: Get rid of those jauges. Remove them, and put at the place a good pressure sensor. At least this way the measurement will be reliable (and not in the range of 10-20% of precision).

true again. although, pressure transducers are expensive and require additional hardware to collect the data. The transducers also need to be calibrated otherwise you'll have no idea if you have 1% or 30% error. The reason why gauges are being discussed is that they are easy to use and fairly affordable. If people want to run their own teststhey probably don't want to spend a wad of cash on equipment. Only engineering geek losers like me get enjoyment out of dropping hundreds of dollars to build their own DAQ system.

[AGD]

Guys,

Good to see that this is moving forward. I'm sure once you bake the bread everyone will be here to eat it. Since we only have a few people officially on the board I would like to invite Redkey and 3124 to join. Please post your pics and bio in the classic thread for it to be official. After you guys post I will close the roundtable membership. Anyone not posted is out.

Thanks!!

AGD

[Pand0ra]

Originally posted by Redkey

Having said that... is the regs static airflow (constant stream of air) the same as it's dynamic airflow (on off on off on off)?



Depends on the rate at which you cut the airflow.
The lower the frequency, the closer you'll be to the static airflow (assuming you keep the cyclic ratio constant).




Only engineering geek losers like me get enjoyment out of dropping hundreds of dollars to build their own DAQ system.

Oh! You too? ;)

@++

[athomas]

A couple of suggestions:

Use a controlled chamber size for the area to be recharged. Use a 1 cubic inch and/or a 2 cubic inch storage chamber. Feed the storage chamber from the bottle to be tested. Monitor the pressure in the chamber using a good electronic pressure transducer hooked to a computer. Control an exhaust valve in the storage chamber using the same computer.

Now, we know the exact size of the chamber to be recharged. We can control the time between controlled pressure dumps. We can measure the rate of recharge using the sensor. We could even control the output flow of the chamber to see at which point the tank can no longer keep up. If needed, we could also control a valve at the input to the chamber to control the exact time required to totally charge a chamber of a known size from nothing to a controlled pressure.

The computer can simulate the firing of a paintball gun by opening and closing the chamber. We would then have a more controlled environment than relying on a paintball gun that we know may affect the results.

[magnj]

i know im buting in the middle here but isnt 11 bps not so fast. If a tank drops off past 11 bps thats not too amaixing is it? Maybe for a screw in it is? also is AGD helping you at all, are they giving you any hardware to use?

[ES13Raven]

Has anyone done any further testing?

[cledford]

Not recently. I broke my wrist and it currently has 5 pins in it. I can barely hold anything in my left hand, so it is impossible to consider pursuing anything until I can use it again. The requirements to actually use tools (to remove fittings, etc.) precludes me from working on this right now. I am slightly surprised that other round table members haven't continued to run with this...

-Calvin

[magsRus]

I use a crossfire 68/4500 and I get no shootdown when I shoot 13 bps..it is my highest rate of fire I have achieved so far on my gun.

[ES13Raven]

I would like to help out with some testing, but my brand-new Crossfire tank is having issues......

I thought that Crossfire was supposed to have a quality product.....

I just bought a brand new 68/4500 HP tank 5 days ago. I still haven't used it yet. 2 days after I got it, the LP burst-disc blew. It was just sitting in my closet with about 4000psi in it, and just blew for nothing. I figure ok.... maybe just a bad burst disc or something, so I take it back to the store I bought it from, and they replace the burst disc without a problem.

2 days after that, the burst disc blows again at 7am, waking me up on the only day I can sleep in, again just sitting in my closet. Both times it has happened, it was cold in the room if anything.

Now I know the reg is bad, and it slowly creeps. The LP burst disc is rated at 1800psi. I can't wait to give this thing back to the store for a different one. I don't want the same one repaired... I want an entirely different tank.

Is this a rare occurance with a brand new Crossfire tank, or has this happened to a lot of people????

Anyone?

[TRIAD]

Send it back to crossfire, their customer service is top-notch. I dropped my reg on the ground, bent the upper o-ring lip, and they replaced it, hadit back 10 days after shipping. So, drop them a line, and they'll help you out.

[FordPrefect]

I've got a brand new 72/45 Crossfire tank that I will test. I got it from paintballgear, and I got nothing written about it at all. Not a warranty card, not anything. Is this normal?

If we are going to test different systems, you cannot use an ASA. Because you have to have everything the same for every tank. And some tanks don't use an ASA. We need some other way to do it.

[TRIAD]

I didn't get a warranty card either. When I emailed them, I was neither asked for one, nor did I send one. They did not ask me how the upper o-ring lip got bent, nor how or why it may have broken. They simply fixed the tank, charging no return shipping. If that's not the easiest company to deal with, I don't know what is.

[FordPrefect]

Well, thats cool of them. They just fix it, no questions asked, eh?


We still need ideas of how to test the reg for either flow or consistancy.

[FordPrefect]

Wait a tick, screw-ins require an ASA to operate. So, then if it restricts flow, it is a design "flaw" that it must deal with.

I have a question. I had an idea that would use a fan, and measuring how long it took for the fan to slow down, after the tank was turned off. The question is: Would the fan spin faster, just because one tank has a higher pressure? Or would it just be the flow of the tank?

[Styles]

A few points, forgive me if they have already been mentioned as I didn't read the entire thread:

-preset tanks use the pin depressor to vent out regulated air. This is a variable you have to take into consideration when testing them, and in my mind, when buying them. If you have an on/off, some tanks will choke down or off completely if you turn the depressor in too far or not enough. Some bottomlines with fixed depressors may allow more flow on some tanks than others. I would think there is a "sweet spot" area where the reg flows best when depressing the pin. My CenterFlag 420 reg(which I would recommend to anyone) has a fairly long pin with clearance around it. I had a NitroDuck preset before that had a REALLY short pin on it, and would not work well in some ASAs.

-since all this started i think there has been way too much hype about "flow rates". I have run the old Crossfires, which at one time had a horrible reputation, on a Shocker with no shootdown in F/A over the chrono. I've checked a 32 degrees system and it performed the same way, and i've seen both choke on guns that required less flow. I use the above mentioned CenterFlag 420 preset on my Excalibur with no problems, and many people I know also use presets other than Crossfires with no shootdown on theirs. If they can run these markers with their high volume flow requirements, I don't really care what video they have set up telling me my system is inferior. Keep in mind most of these tanks are set at 700-900psi out, so they make up for any flow needed with pressure. The low pressure versions of the Crossfire would be a better statement for them of their flow rates, but really I can't really see the point of limiting yourself to 450 output when you may need to run it a bit higher for some applications, and the fact you don't lose anything really by having the higher output version. Options are always good though.

-The differences are probably quality in components, design, and manufacturing. We sell Crossfires at our store and they are not the most reliable of presets from what we have seen.

[FordPrefect]

We still need a way to test these things, and I've asked a question, and posted an idea about the testing. We need other people to get going on this again.

[Crossfire]

I have read alot, well, all of the posts regarding this forum. You have to say that the actual comparrison is a bold step. We never get to see how products stack up. We just get told. Are you going to slam a company that has made an effort to demonstrate what you are getting. Hell, anyone can pull a triger on a marker. What sells it? Be general not single minded. In the begining it sounded like a witch hunt, with all of the ways that a company is cheating to show performance. Is there anyone that doesn't have a tainted view that will be doing the study. You better spend $250 plus on that gauge.
Has all (ALL) companies that make regs said the same thing? Hell yes.
How do we know the difference. Paintball is virtually all word of mouth. If Smart Parts Freak is the best it sells even if it isn't. Is DYE the best in Cockers,barrels, clothing or aftermarket products or what ever, or do we just like their trailer and look.
All that I am saying is that we better approach this very carefully. I think that we should not be the ones doing the tests. I do not know many of you and that probably goes for alot of everyone else. This needs to be independant, someone that does not play. Bill wiht Warpig is pretty nonbias and he has testing equip.
As far a Crossfire goes, if you look at how they are set up. They offer a fair product at a fair price. Players need that. You need entry level to move up and buy higher level. They sell a product to people that can not afford much to spend on this expensive sport and they stand behind their stuff 100%. Repair a bonnet that someone dropped at no charge? That's cool. Isn't it? I see alot of companies that have product go bad on the first use and the distributor says that they can BUY a repair kit. NO, it is the first time I tried to use it. The repair kit is only $15. They have to make their stuff to offer this hassel free service to players.
They do alot of good that others do not.
All reg companies are equal if they say the same thing about the performance. Now we have someone that is giving us some proof (they do work well). They have been around a while. do you think that they would throw themself under the bus, or is that what we want to accomplish.
Lets do this right. There have been posts on PB Nation of players wanting to see some performance tests. These kinds of places that do sell advertisement can not do this type of test, which answers my question about Bill. It has to be independant to have any back bone.
Are we going to publish a consumers report on products now, or are we just going to single out reg manufacturers and companies that put their name on regs.

Your comments are appreciated.

[billmi]

Originally posted by flow
Bill wiht Warpig is pretty nonbias and he has testing equip....

These kinds of places that do sell advertisement can not do this type of test, which answers my question about Bill.

I would suggest, if you want a question answered about me, that you ask me.

One of the reasons I've kept the pricing on WARPIG's ads very low (compared to other means of advertising), is so that there would be a wide variety of sponsors, even to avoid the appearance of needing to lean to one sponsor or not.

Sponsorship of WARPIG does not determine the content of the web site, if it did, what would be the point of the site?

That's also why we don't sell products, despite the fact that I've been offered healthy sums of money to do so. If you go to "JoesInfoWebsite.com" and read a glowing product review, and there's a "buy it here" button, that is not a review, but a sales pitch.

By example, I would suggest you look over articles on WARPIG about the changes in the Revolution loader that have taken place over the years. I published the article about the change in their electronics with computer recorded performance graphs showing the decrease in performance of the 2000 Revolutions while they were a sponsor of WARPIG, and without going through any political "hey, is this OK with you guys" nonsense. Why? Because it was a performance issue relavent to players, and that's what WARPIG is about, what is relevent to the player.

The real reason I haven't done a regulator drop off test is that I haven't found the pressure transducers needed to do it right at a cost that fit in my budget at the time.

Tom Kaye has offered the use of his equipment at AGD for such testing, but the cost of travel to get there knocks that out, pluss I believe that if the testing was done at a manufacturer, on their equipment, readers would call into question whether things were biased towards AGD.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Paladin]

If you set about testing regulators by firing a paintgun, all you will really be testing is the flow capacity of the fittings and air passages between the regulator and the gun. Or in the case of a 'Mag, the flow rate through the on/off valve.
If you are going to actually test the flow rate and output consistency of a regulator you need to use a basic flow meter/guage, a shut off valve down stream from the gauge and calibrated gauges on the output from the tank before and after the flow meter.
The tests should be performed at low, medium and high output pressures.
Rate the regulators that you test, not just the plumbing.:D

[cledford]

Any suggestions? I get the pins taken out of my arm tomorrow so can pick this back up. I described a simple flow meter in a previous post - any different take on the process?

-Calvin

[cledford]

This evening I reread my comments from when the Crossfire system arrived. I was nastier then I should have been. To be honest I was EXTREMELY upset that something I had just paid $200 dollars for arrived in very bad state. When an air system arrives shipped in a thin box (not even remotely appropriate for shipping) with patches of bottle showing through the torn cardboard it is easy to lose perspective and get a little critical. (We all know what a serious scratch can mean to a bottle) Actually, most who know me from here at AO know that when I get critical, I REALLY get critical! (Boy that AKA stuff got pretty heated…) I never say anything that isn’t true or fair– but I sure can say it in an acidic way. Anyhow, this is something I need to work on and the comments should have been posted in “talk” not here. I stand by my observations, which were 100% truthful – but should have left out the “rocket scientists” comment (really a play on the WAS issue going on then) and the idiot name calling altogether.

I’d really like to see this forum do well and am looking forward to picking this back up shortly. For those who don’t know, I’ve been healing up from a badly broken wrist that has precluded me from “turning a wrench” or working with tools due the injury.

Chris Havelock of Crossfire is now an AO member and is going to participating in this process. I apologize to him for name-calling that accompanied my other comments on how my system was shipped and the condition in which it arrived.

-Calvin Ledford

[Jason Reed]

my crossfire reg was damaged when i received it a couple of weeks ago how do i go about sending it back and getting it fixed.

[paintball8869]

Just out of curiousity, but why not look at a pneumatics distributor for the equipment needed. I know a couple in my area and will check to see if they have the appropriate equipment. That way I can get a flow rate out of my armageddon tank (very interested in the actual flow rate compared to other tanks). I've had no flow problems with the geddon at 14 bps, so I don't understand how these tanks show dropoff on an angel at 11.

I'll see what they can do in the way of setting up a quick test for me. Hopefully they'll have the equipment to do the testing. If so, i'll run my geddon and nitroduck through the testing process.

[banzaimf]

Here's my thought process.

4500 psi X 68 ci = 306,000 total air (TA)

drain 2000 PSI of air out of the tank through a common sized fitting and time it = Drain Time (DT)

2000 is important because we can use this on 3k bottles and still have 1k psi in the tank. having 1k psi in the tank is important cause you want to have the reg working the entire time, ie have it regulating the pressure in the bottle out.

TA/DT= Flow Rate (FR)

output pressure of your bottle = (OP)

OP/1000 = modified OP (MOP)

MOP X FR = equalized flow rate.


YOu have to take into account the pressure that you are bleeding air at and this is the methoed that has popped into my head. I will verify this is what I jotted down last night when I get home, but does anyone see anything wrong with the formula?

as a note, this will NOT measure recharge rate. This is just something that you can do at home with a stopwatch and measure actual flow rate.

[Paladin]

If you measure the time it takes to get a volume of air through a known sized fitting, wouldn't that only be a measure of the flow rate of the fitting and not the flow rate of the regulator ?
On the other hand, accurate measuring of the pressure output from the tank when it is full versus when the pressure is down 2000 psi will demonstrate the relative output consistency of the regulator.
As a general rule, the output pressure from a single stage regulator will go up as the static pressure of the air supply goes down. (and vise-versa) The ratio of variation is the factor by which the consistency of a regulator is typically demonstrated.

[banzaimf]

The reason I thought of a known size fitting was thus, the internal diameter of the fitting should be larger of the internal area that air is leaving the reg. If I am wrong, then the other thought to me would be to have 4 fittings.

As to measuring at full and down 2k. Are you talking about setting at 850 full then draining 2k and then checking to see where the pressure is at?

ps Glen, I think you're a god!

[pbjosh]

Even if you do a tank dump you will be able to show how fast the valve opens, and flow throught the valve, but not how fast it recharges.

The only way to really see how fast a gun recharges, and measure it, would be to connect the regulator to a gun, preferably a gun that uses a good chunk of air per shot, and have a transducer in place between the reg and the gun.

Now, I have NO clue how to do this. But there are people out there with the setup. If somebody with the setup wants to connect a gun up I will see if I will pull strings and get a couple reg systems for them to try. If you have a professional setup, one that can get nice clean results, let the forum know. We can round up some regs.

Josh

[Paladin]

Originally posted by banzaimf
The reason I thought of a known size fitting was thus, the internal diameter of the fitting should be larger of the internal area that air is leaving the reg. If I am wrong, then the other thought to me would be to have 4 fittings.

Well, multiple orofice sizes and an accurate guage upstream from the various orofices will point out at what orofice size the regulator cannot provide enough flow to keep the pressure up between the regulator and the orofice. In other words, the point where demand outruns supply. Then you can calculate the flow rate of the orofice to determine what the potential flow rate of the regulator is. You will need to start with a very small orofice and work up in increments of just a few thousandths of an inch until the pressure on the upstream side of the orofice drops below the known output pressure of the reg. You will also see that as the supply pressure behind the regulator valve deminishes, the maximum output flow of the regulator will also deminish. This because higher pressure on the supply side force air through the regulator valve to the controlled side faster.


Originally posted by banzaimf
As to measuring at full and down 2k. Are you talking about setting at 850 full then draining 2k and then checking to see where the pressure is at?
[/B]

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. When the static pressure of the tank is reduced by 2000 psi the output pressure of a single stage regulator will generally change somewhat because the reg has so much less pressure to work against. Whether the regulated output goes up or down will depend on the design style of the reg but the variation will typically coincide with the dimensioning of the valve orofice and plunger/diaphram sizes.

[314159]

http://www.airamerica.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=39&osCsid=b8fac76047dff81855eb329b596b7f84

air america has this reg tester. it appears as if you can change the flow rate, because the pressure will not be changing rapidly, the responce time of the valve is not an issue.

there should be a certain quality of output. like 10% 20% or something.....

you would need to take (starting tank pressure - ending tank pressure) / time . take the highest one of these that satisfies your quality output numbers. this number is your maximum flow rate.

if the air america reg tester does not max out the flow of a tank, we either need to reset the quality of output threshold, or build a reg tester with better flow.

[Redkey]

Josh...

can you program your raceguns to fire full auto at 1, 5 and 10 balls a second? The reason why I ask is that for a good comparison of regs you'll need to be able to make the ROF pretty consistant. How soon can you collect those regs? I should be able to come up with a few myself.

I have a bit more work to do before I'll be ready to test anything... but, I should be good to go by the second or third week of dec. I'll do some trial runs on my gear and see how it goes... if the results look promising (and you think it's worth while) you could drive down here and spend an afternoon taking measurements. For now I am limited to 600 psi... since most firing pressures are below that, we should be ok.

Do most of the regs in question have a port for a transducer? If not how do you want to tap into the air between the reg and the gun. On a cocker you could put a T between the front block and the cocking reg, or replace the frontblock gas though screw with a fitting... or probably the best bet would be to put an adaptor between the reg and the asa. Which ever method was used you'd want to minimize the amount of additional volume you were adding to the system.

I'm open to suggestions...

[Coaster]

i know i am not a roundtable member, but i thought i'd post this. Over on pbstar.com they did a review of a melee, and i think it is the way that it shoudl be done here, give or take. They used the gladiator output tester, with a larger gauge so that it was more accurate to read the input pressure to the gladiator. Here is the link :

http://www.pbstar.com/gun-upgrade-review/nitrogen-resource/melee/

[Redkey]

While their testing is interesting I don't think this is what we had in mind. From my viewpoint I would rather know how well the reg did at keeping up at high rates of fire, not that I can shoot fast... but it seems to be the popular thing to talk about these days. The output pressure as a function of tank pressure would be a by-product of the testing.

They mention something about opening a valve and closing it ten times at various pressures. They also say something like the pressure "jumped back to its original position" in less than a second. This is pretty vague, but, it looks like they do have some pretty good data on the tank to output pressure relationship.

[flanders]

hmm for the time i had my crossfire it workedvery nicly

odly the first time i had it it had a high output (was an 800) of around 850-9

had the reg removed from tank, and then re assembled and cleaned, worked nicly from then on

very consistant used it on an intimidater with very little shoot down

i noticed that no matter whop filld it if they could fill it beyond the reg never alowed mroe then 2700 psi in instead of the 3k, also when empty many tanks' pinvalve can be pusjed down., never happoened to mine

now ive useed this tank on a huge gass hog cocker (way outa time) with some visible shootdown on the reg but it it recharged fast enough not to mater, now if i had been shooting faster coulda been a problem. Ive used it on an excal with close to 18 bps going into it and no shoot down, but the big thin was seeing the difference in recharge rates when using on an emag between electro and rt, showed very interesting ideas


and i think this thread is good, but seems to be slowing down and becoming redundant, may i suggest finding a new topic such as say, hmm whats a good one whats a good one umm, such as low pressure regulaters found on cocker's matricies impulses etc

[flanders]

oh and on the flow rate thing, it peaks after initial fill (why velocity is often up 10 fps after a fill or will drop after a chrono after first fill) and as such as the tank empties the rate in which air flows out of the tank will slow, same reason why a paintball slows down when less air is behind it, less force less compression.

flow rate influenced by the bottle neck of the well, bottle neck (snickers :rolleyes: ) but do to the design it is more influenced by the pin hole size of the tank

now correct em if im wrong but wouldn't a larger hole leading from tank to reg provide the best flow rate, or am i just mising something

also if some one could post pics of a full dis assembled cross fire reg would be helpful

[Pand0ra]

Any updates on this?

After 4 months of debate on how to measure the flow rate, it's time to move forward, or dig a deep grave for this thread...

[Scandalon]

There's a lot of terms being bandied about, but not everyone knows what they mean (least of all me!) Seems as though there's 3 things to test on these regs. (Assuming the tanks hold the air and don't explode, they are outside the scope of this whole project.)As I understand it, these are:

1. Flow. This is simply how much air (volume) can get through the reg when it's "open" in a certain amount of time. I believe this get's more complicated with adjustable regs...or am I completely off base here?

2. Consistency. This seems to consist of 2 seperate things, the "fluctation ratio" and the "recharge rate". The ratio I speak of, I can't recall the proper term, but if a reg has a ratio of 50:1, it would mean that the output pressure would vary 1 psi for every 50psi difference in the input. (The tank, in this case)

Now, "recharge rate" - I believe this means how quickly the reg reacts to changes in input pressure. The assumption is that you want this as quick as possible so that as the input pressure drops while firing, the reg adjusts as quickly as possible to keep the output pressure the same.

That's my understanding - someone that knows more want to weigh in?

[askman]

I think pressure transducer(there probably is one that can measure 800 psi, I've worked with ones that measure low pressures) attached to the input asa and capture the signal on the Digital Oscope for 10+ shot string full auto fire would probably give the best answer. You can vary the input, output pressure, and also try it with several markers. (at least those with electronic triggers)

Since markers draw air in bursts, the reg is under higher stress. this probably is the best way to test reg's performance in real condition...

[Badger94z28]

All this talk about testing but a lot of reasons why it isnt getting done....now im not trying to piss anyone off, since I havn't offered to help, but all of these theories should stop being discussed and testing should go ahead, otherwise this thread is a waste of time. Ive read through four pages of posts and there havnt been real results.