Craig Palmer and co2 on a Mag, interesting

[EnderWigginPballin]

I was over at the POG forum, (I've been looking to get a Blazer)
and I came accross a thread about running a Mag on multiple Stabiizers and the AIR Valve.....

Craig Palmer said to take the pin and seal out of the AIR Valve and use 2 stabilizers. That way the AIR Reg isn't being used, and the velocity is controled by the input pressure from the Stabilizers....

www.paintmagazine.com/pog

click on "forums" and then "3 Stabilizers on a Mag"

[CenterFire]

From what I can tell from reading Craig Palmer's post.. only the reg part of the AIR valve has trouble with CO2? In which case the AIR's reg could be replaced by a stab, allowing the use of CO2..

I happen to like CO2, and although I use nitro, if this is possible I might think of trying it..

[a_malfunction]

You really dont get any noticeable benefits. The Mag's reg is a quite capable unit. And you would end up paying a whole lot more for 2 stablizers than you would for a preset HPA tank.

[heath]

How can you do this on an RT? what would you have to take out of the valve?

[Muzikman]

First off, although it does work, I have not seen any real difference. As long as you use a stab and an Anti-siphon tank a mag will run on CO2 fine.

You can however do what is said. It does work.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by heath
How can you do this on an RT? what would you have to take out of the valve?

This would completely defeat the purpose of having a RT/Retro valve. If you empty the internals of that valve there'll be no reactivity and you'll have lost the super fast recharge rate.

[Cristobal]

Originally posted by TheTramp


This would completely defeat the purpose of having a RT/Retro valve. If you empty the internals of that valve there'll be no reactivity and you'll have lost the super fast recharge rate.

Worse -- if you take out the valve pin you would loose your on/off completely since air could flow right through to dump chamber. You could do it if you left the pin in place and just took out the reg seat.

EDIT: The other problem is that the AIR valve uses Teflon o-ring in the on/off for a reason: they're more resistant to freeze-up the o-rings in the RT on/off which aren't intended to have to deal with CO2. Granted, they won't be at as much of a risk, because you'd lose the faster recharge of the RT valve, but they'd still be more susceptible. Also you'd have to screw your reg nut in very far so as to keep the reg pin forward and keep the air passage between it and the reg seat holder open.

Still, though, I'm inclined to say what's the point? Even on a standard mag most people seem to do pretty well on an anti-siphon. If you like CO2 and want to do it well, you'll use a secondary regulator between the tank and the AIR valve to provide a consistent input pressure to the gun anyway. Using a Stabilizer inline with an anti-siphon tank would be what I would consider to be about the optimal mag setup for CO2 -- basically what btautomag does, although he's got a fancy mounting bracket to hold his tank at an angle rather than an anti-siphon and he runs a his inline reg on the side of the gun. You've got to consider though that for the price of a Stab you might be just as well off to buy one of the cheaper HPA tanks.

[Nomad]

Yes, but some people don't has access to either Nitro or HPA. And sometimes it's just not practical for someone to use an HPA tank for thier gun.

Like me :D. I'm running a Phantom, and one time I borrowed an HPA tank and put it on my Phantom. Utterly hated it. Too bulky for the marker it's being used on. If I do go HPA I'll have to buy a remote, bottom line setup and a gas through stock. Not exactly practical as a 7oz CO2 tank works just as well for about 1/2 the size and weight while costing like 1/4 that of a HPA.

Cheapest HPA tank I've ever seen: $130 CDN
Macroline Hose with fittings: $18 CDN
Gas Through Stock: $65 CDN
Remote: $50 CDN
ASA: $5
Hose to Gun Adaptor: $9

Total: $277 CDN


CO2 setup.

CO2 7oz Tank: $20
Macroline Hose with fitting: $18
ASA: $5
Regulator (PMI Pure Energy): $75
Totol: $128

See my point?

[personman]

But what if you used *pinky to mouth* 3 stabilizers and an expantion chamber remote on a RT??
Would that work? :D

[Aranarth]

It should be noted that the pin that they are referring to is the regulator valve pin, not the on/off pin. In essence, what you are doing is making the mag regulator a gas-through. What I would like to see is comparisons between recharge rates. I don't think a stab comes close to the retro-reg, but if it can come close to matching the AIR, its a very good solution to mag users who want to use CO2. The stab works excellently as a CO2 filter, from experience.
-AranarthX

[Cristobal]

Yes, if its more convenient, comfortable (size-wise) or economical to run CO2 (or if you can't get HPA in your area) then it certainly can be a very viable option. Running CO2 through a gutted RT valve strikes me as having little point but for the purposes of mad-science experimentation:D It certainly wouldn't be cost effective, since you're not getting any performance increase over a gutted Air valve.

The other thing to consider is something that came up in Deep Blue: if you put an RT-style on/off pin in an AIR valve, you increase the chances of short-stroking because you don't have the higher pressure air input to ballance out the internal chamber pressure that because of the narrower lower portion will reduce its retun pressure on the sear. See this thread if you want to read more: the last problem in the automag valve (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44110)

Nomad, if those are the costs, then CO2 has an advantage, certainly.

However, when I calculated it out I got something like this:

Stabilizer: $90
12 oz CO2 (maybe 20 oz if you get a good deal): $20
Anti-siphon: $10 (with install)
total: $120

47-3k screw-in HPA tank: $70
drop-forward: $25
total: $105


All the rest, asa, gas lines etc. would be the same for both. The comparison may not be entirely equal: you could get a cheaper inline reg for your CO2 (I don't know how the PMI compares to the Palmer) or need a bigger HPA tank or go without a drop. But with the costs that close I think its worth at least cosidering the HPA.

Obviously your best deal is going to be a simple CO2 tank with anti-siphon, but to compete with HPA CO2 does benefit from the addition of a good inline regulator. In my mind though, a single stabilizer on an anit-siphon setup should be adaquate protection from freeze-up. Gutting the mag's reg is probably unnecessary. You should get better consitency with the Stab and AIR, than a single stab alone. If you add a second stab sideline on the gutted reg you lose you cost advantage entirely (now you've got an AIR reg that you payed good money for and aren't using, and two inline regs which for the same price would get you a nice HPA tank).