Something I am sick of

[oldsoldier]

Ok, I am sitting here watching the news about our "detainees" in Cuba. Well, I just want to voice my opinion. These people claim they are being held illegally, and being treated inhumanely. Now folks, most of these people havent eaten 3 meals a day until they were "detained". They have medical treatment (better than some Americans get), shelter, and are allowed to practice their religious beliefs in peace. Now politicians are looking into if we should actually let them go. Let me ask this; do think, even for a moment, if we release these people (quite a few are british, and a few Americans are among them too), that they will return peacefully to Afhganistan, and never pick up a firearm against us again? These people wouldnt have had a problem if the press didnt go in there and start making a stink about it. These people are NOT prisoners of war. Therefore, they dont not fall under the Geneva Convention, which, in part, governs how we treat prisoners. They are detainees. Enemy combatants. To be returned at the end of the war. Period. I guess I am just tired of hearing about the "maltreatment" of them...when my brethren are there doing what they do day in and day out. Howe many prisoners do they have of ours? None. Why? They dont take them. Look what happened to the SEAL that fell from the chopper. Mercy? Humane treatment? you tell me. Where were his rights to practice religion in peace? They treat us as godless, and think we are without a soul. They dont have any moral repercussions with killing an UNARMED, INJURED individual. They dont see it as a cowardly act to kill someone who cannot defend themselves. God, this boils my blood!!!!
Sorry, had to vent.

[Jonno06]

i agree 110%...

thats like the people who are in jail get better benifits and whatever then most of the people living in america..

[HoppysMag]

personaly i think we should just ignore there "Complaints". do WHAT EVER we have to do to get what we need and then figure out what to do with them... we need to stop being so politicaly correct, we give in to protester and the PC scum...and we better not give in here... it will be the end...kinda like that island we were using for target practice till some dumb sheep herder got himself blown up... i mean how much brains does it take to realize some things happening here and the smokeing craters arnt nateral...:D and to me they are not human, they are the enemy, to be delt with how ever makes them no longer able to take up arms against us ( weather that means showing them how great america is or well killing them)... Johnny walker was lucky he didnt run into some one like me when he surrendered... Under some law ( i dont know which one ) you give up your citizenship when you join a hostile army. they claim he was practicing religios freedom and fighting the northern alliance... ya well how did that Special Forces guy get killed in the prison there?? Congradulations you just became a hostile force! o well those are my views, no flames, arguements, or human rights activist... how ever if i got the part about the law wrong please tell me cause i wanna know whats really up???

[shartley]

I will not get into what I feel about all this.. but I am sure most know anyway. ;)

But I must point out that just because they are in Cuba does not mean they are not subject to US Laws. If they are on US Controlled Soil it is considered under US Jurisdiction. No matter where in the world you are at, if you are on a US Compound, under the US Flag, you are *in* the USA.

There are other reasons they chose Cuba, and it had little to do with getting around any Laws.

[obsolete898]

well US laws dont aply becaause they are in cuba so they can complain all they want

They are on a military installation, all US laws apply. Any Base world wide is considered US soil, same thing with embassies(sp).

Edit: Sam you're to fast.

[shartley]

LOL Sorry.

[HoppysMag]

:rolleyes: whatever...

[pbstu]

and to me they are not human, they are the enemy, to be delt with how ever makes them no longer able to take up arms against us ( weather that means showing them how great america is or well killing them)...

so it is ok, in your opinion for americans to kill unarmed, possibly injured detainees(sp?) of war, but for the enemy to kill americans in the same fashion:

ya well how did that Special Forces guy get killed in the prison there??
is wrong and unjust?

or maybe they are sub-human:

and to me they are not human
and dont fall under the same standards?



stu.

[oldsoldier]

Sam, thats correct. But, as military detainees, they also fall under international law. The point I was trying to make was that the "inhumane" treatment isnt really all that inhumane...Anyway, I was upset. We didnt sign the Geneva convention either, but we follow its doctrine.
It just saddens me that we always play by the rules (with exceptions, I am aware of our past), but we routinely fight against hostile forces that dont treat POWs humanely.Not that we dont have cases where we havent...but, for the most part, we do. We dont summarily execute prisoners (no matter how much we think they may deserve it). We feed, attend medical needs, provide for their creature comforts, allow them to freely practice their religion (hell, they cleared a place to the East for them to worship!), and provide protection for them. And them? In this case the Taliban/Al Quaeda; kidnap, murder, murder, mass murder...ok...I am done.

[LittMag]

Originally posted by shartley
There are other reasons they chose Cuba, and it had little to do with getting around any Laws.

Cuba was choosen for security reasons. If for some reason one of them were to escape and they were being held in the US they could... well.

HoppysMag - On your passport it says that you can lose your citizenship for joining a Foreign military service, not just a hostile military.

[shartley]

OS-
I think you missed something… you are preaching to the choir with me. ;)

The “laws” post I made was in response to someone else’s post. And with that in mind what you just posted would also hold true if they were being held in Washington D.C. My point was that their being in Cuba was not about avoiding any laws.

Again.. no need to *convince* me…. I am with you. ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by LittMag


Cuba was choosen for security reasons. If for some reason one of them were to escape and they were being held in the US they could... well.

HoppysMag - On your passport it says that you can lose your citizenship for joining a Foreign military service, not just a hostile military.
Very true.... I just didn't want to get into it. ;)

[HoppysMag]

so it is ok, in your opinion for americans to kill unarmed, possibly injured detainees(sp?) of war, but for the enemy to kill americans in the same fashion:


its a war and yes its ok for them to do so IF THE PEOPLE THEY KILL ARE COMBATANTS...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ya well how did that Special Forces guy get killed in the prison there??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


is wrong and unjust?

or maybe they are sub-human:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and to me they are not human
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


and dont fall under the same standards?
im sorry but you lost me here??

mabey i was alittle harsh... obviously we need to feed them and not execute them and stuff but the fact is we are never gunna get any information out of the guys that know stuff unless we show NO mercy... the common conscript is no big deal just let them go ( like we did) but the leaders need to be interigated harshly... thats my feeling on it...

thank you LittMag for the clairification..:D

[pbstu]

so why do you think the american soldiers arent going ahead and interigating them harshly?


stu.

[HoppysMag]

because if they do the media/public will jump down thier throats and probibly get some one in trouble... ether that or they are cracking to easly:confused: ...

seriously what does this mean though
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ya well how did that Special Forces guy get killed in the prison there??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


is wrong and unjust?

or maybe they are sub-human:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and to me they are not human
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


and dont fall under the same standards?

[pbstu]

ugh read it all without the quotes, if you still dont know what it means then i cant help you. the quotes were just references from your post to back up what i was saying.

and whos fault is it that the media/public are so quick to jump down everyones throat and try and get people in trouble?



stu.

[Jonneh]

Off topic, but semi interesting fact:

In Germany, paintball is pretty much illegal, so the only (legal) place to hold a paintball event is on US Air Force bases.

[HoppysMag]

ok well the thing about the special ops is refering to how johnny walker claimed he was there for religous freedom, fighting in an army against the US an is claiming citizen ship.... and they do think of us that way, iv got no problem with it.

and the reason for people jumping down throats is the fact that everyone is so PC and dont enderstand that o ccasionaly people need to be killed to protect our country, to protect them... again this is my view you can argue all you want your not changing it.


EDIT: im not being racist or anything i am refering to who ever falls under the catagory of "The Enemy"...on that note i am going to end this here cause i know it will be a flame eventualy... if you want to discuss my views PM me...

[pbstu]

k well i dont know what you mean by PC. but if its everyones fault then americans are the real problem here, for forcing the media/public to take this view and in turn not interigate these people harshly. so that would make you and your fellow americans at fault here hoppysmag.



stu.

[HoppysMag]

hey if thats how you choose to see it so be it... America trys its best to help other countrys and we make enemys while doing so... and im not doubting that it is America PC additude ( PC= Politicaly Correct) and media but we have to be ready to take it to extremes to protect the general public... if we capture a ringleader we cant give him tea and cookies and ask him where his buddys are with a smile and "Pleases" we need to be ready and able to just beat the information out of him ( or if he a still refuses do some thing to him that will scare the others into fearing the US)... after a couple of them the next guy might realize its hopeless to resist and give in volentarily.. of course if they cooperate there is no need for it and as for regular grunts they just need to be detained and questiona and then Release/detained for longer or what ever. and if they treat our people with respect and humanity then we can do the same for them... you were posting your post whil i was editing but for now on please PM me cause i know this has a small eber ready to become a flame... thank you for keeping this discussion inteligent...

[obsolete898]

Originally posted by HoppysMag
if we capture a ringleader we cant give him tea and cookies and ask him where his buddys are with a smile and "Pleases" we need to be ready and able to just beat the information out of him ( or if he a still refuses do some thing to him that will scare the others into fearing the US)... after a couple of them the next guy might realize its hopeless to resist and give in volentarily..

Sorry but torture is against the Geneva Convention, not gonna happen. We fight under the Law of Armed Conflict, which means we do it lawfully and with honor(usually).;)

[HoppysMag]

ya it al depends on who captures him... im talking about the guys who dont always follow the rules...:D

[obsolete898]

I don't want to sound mean Hoppys but:


Shrink the damn sig!!!!!!!

[HoppysMag]

ok i try to turn it off after the first post but i forget some times

[Farlow]

Very interesting debate. I have been waiting for a place to rant as well on this topic. When some of the prisoners were interviewed and asked what they would do when released, they stated they would go back to figure out how to kill more Americans. I have a pretty good patience level, I also tend to be hot headed, but in my life time I am yet to ever throw a punch at anyone or hurt anyone out of anger. In this case after Sept 11, I would have no problem with seeing a bullet put into the back of each of their heads. May be extreme, but if you do not kill someone who is trying to kill you, then why bother even being around.

USA follows the rules, but is always the bad guy. People in the World hate us until they need our money. I do not mean to offend anyone with this next comment, but here is a very blunt statement: If most of the politicians and special intrests group were in place at the time of World War II we would have never gotten involved in the war and some of use would be speaking german, the others japanese and the rest would be lamp shades. My very distant relative was gased by ther germans in World War I, my grandfather took two bullets in World War II and my father spent 4 years in Nam. All of these sacrifices cannot go wasted due to a bunch or religious fanatics. We need to stand up and start wiping out these individuals and countries and make a point......and if we don't America will eventually become another empire next to the romans in the history books.

[HoppysMag]

^^^ thats what my dad always says when some country critzizes the US( especialy europeans) "If it wasnt for us they would all be speaking german" but i agree we need to start making examples like if we go into iraq we really need to show them...

[fenris69]

Interesting topic...

The detainees/pow's will continue to whine and demand because the world will always have a sympathetic response. People tend to forget rather quickly how they came to be there, and instead will feel guilty for keeping them...regardless of their future intentions. I know...it's silly, but it helps make us human.

Personally, they fought...they lost...they got better than they deserved from the victor. That's the way the world works. Ideologically? Well hell yes theyre gonna go kill some more. Why not? We in the west have to step off the moral soapbox once in a while to understand I think.