how fast is an RT?

[boomerfoxtrot]

I have a minimag RT w/ Z-Grip..etc... I don't have lvl 10 yet, but YET is the word there... I just bought myself a Mag RT w/ Z-Grip too... I am going to put lvl 10 in both.The recharge rate is 26bps, with warpfeed coming off a HALO B ... how fast will my RTs fire? 20+?

[HoppysMag]

faster than you can pull the trigger!:D i donno... but its plenty fast.

[boomerfoxtrot]

the good thing about RTs you can get away with not having to pull the trigger like everyone eles... =]

I can shoot faster then I can pull... cause of the bounce

[magman007]

ok the trigger bounce that your describing sounds like runaway, not the normal rt bounce back. runaway isnt cool, and the valve isnt meant to do that

[boomerfoxtrot]

so "sweet spoting" the RT and "run away" on the RT are the same?

[TRIAD]

technically, sure. because sweetspotting is finding the place where you can get runaway, but runaway will happen no matter where you pull it. but if it isn't set up for runaway, the sweet spot will not be FULL runaway, just hefty bounce.

[magman007]

no, they are the same thing, it is fa, and it is illegal, sweetspotting is runaway mode, it is just controled

[boomerfoxtrot]

so as for the gun, is "runaway" bad? I know it's bad for game play cause it's like playing in a different LCD mode.. and it's not semi...

but for the gun... is it bad?

I know it's hard on the springs, and seer... other then that...

[Jack & Coke]

...so "sweet spoting" the RT and "run away" on the RT are the same?


It's a matter of semantics.

You can call it whatever you want.

When I think of "runaway", I think of "uncontrolled", "out of control"... as in a "runaway" train, or a "runaway" disel truck speeding downhill without brakes.

It's something you can not stop. Like modifying the sear on a Spyder so that the only way it will stop is to wait until all the air runs out.

If I can control the trigger so that it shoots rapidly when I want it to, and to stop when I want it to, then it is called "sweet spoting".

"sweet spot" refers to effortless and ideal execution. Like the "sweet spot" on a golf swing, tennis racket, baseball swing, the "sweet spot" on the RT is the ideal spot where you can get it to fire effortlessly.

If you are the type to have a hissy fit over what it is called, then call it whatever you want. If you don't care for the "sweet spot" term, then consider this, the term "simulated full auto" is more appropiate to the RT than the term "run away".

On a side note: Just because everyone calls it one way doesn't mean they're correct. I hear countless people ignorantly refer to this as a "clip":

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/4sig239_s.jpg

...the correct name for this is a "magazine".

This is a "clip":

http://www.kmike.com/KWjpg/M1TopM2.jpg

There is a difference... :)

But this has not stopped people from incorrectly refering to it as such... :mad:

Call it anything you want! LOL :D

[rx2]

Aaaargh.

I can't begin to tell you how many writers in large publications often interchange "clip" and "magazine." Also, I always get irritated when they interchange the terms in movies.

Sorry about ranting, but that is one thing that has always bugged me. Call it anal, but even at ten I knew the differenence.

[HoppysMag]

ok im lost... can some one point out where they said anything about magizines or clips???

and you forget a "Magazine" also refers to a room/place where ammuntion is stored ( IE powder Magazine on a war ship)

cartridge clip
n.
A metal container or frame for holding cartridges to be loaded into an automatic rifle or pistol. Also called ammunition clip.



mag·a·zine Pronunciation Key (mg-zn, mg-zn)
n. (ignoring irelavent parts)


1 A place where goods are stored, especially a building in a fort or a storeroom on a warship where ammunition is kept.

The contents of a storehouse, especially a stock of ammunition.

2 A compartment in some types of firearms, often a small detachable box, in which cartridges are held to be fed into the firing chamber.

so if you take the average mans dictionary discription they can be one and the same...

[boomerfoxtrot]

otherwise,

sweetspoting is being able to go into full auto and stop when you release the trigger....

runway is what my gun is doing right now, and untill I get the right on/off pin lengh... it keeps going after I let lose of the trigger...

correct? if so... then , how fast is the gun shooting when I "sweet spot" it?

[rx2]

Jack and Coke made an analogy between how firing operations and magazines. He was demonstrating how the everyday useage of certain terms is incorrect.

Also, the definitions you listed are vague. If you are familiar with the operation of firearms, clips and magazines are quite different. Clips do nothing but hold rounds in place. If these are to be used with a repeating firearm, usally one strips the rounds from the clip and feeds them into a fixed magazine in the firearm. This magazine is spring-loaded, and it feeds the rounds to be chambered. The clip has no moving parts other than a tension-plate that keeps the rounds in the clip. Sometimes the whole clip is placed in the magazine. But at no time does the clip do anything other than hold rounds.
A magazine is spring-loaded, and whether removable or not, it feeds rounds to be chambered. So, technically, they aren't really interchangeable.

Although, bringing in the definition of a magazine as a storage facitility for armament and explosives does provide a good example of the imprecision of the English language, which seems to be one of the points Jack and Coke was bringing up.

[HoppysMag]

yes i am fimaliar with guns, but, as you said the, average mans definition is that they are the same because of vaige discriptions... that is what i am trying to say... people who dont know guns get confused cause the definitions are similar. thats like taking a person who doesnt know paintball and asking them what the diffrences are of a mag and a cocker ( Besides physical aspects) see what i mean...

[rx2]

I wasn't sure where you were going. Although, I do often hear people who should know better make egregious errors in regards to proper use of terminology.
In any case, the key word is vague. Of course, we wouldn't have these problems if we were speaking German or Japanese.

BTW,
I remembered that the original poster indicated that the recharge rate of an RT valve allows for 26 cps. The RT valve is actually capable sustaining much higher rates of fire, due to the fact that it regulates down and has an extreme recharge curve. The 26 listed is probably due to the fact that the AGD crew was unable to get a higher rate out of the testing apparatus they were using at the time the RT was developed. Now, there may be a different reason, but whatever the case may be, it has shown to be able to exceed that easily.

[Jack & Coke]

rx2, well done!http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

In short:

"sweet spot" = full-auto (full control)

"run away" = full-auto (no control) <= dangerous

[shartley]

Before people want to start complaining about others calling things the WRONG thing, they need to do some self reflecting……

Clip – Magazine? Who cares?
Runaway – Sweet Spot? Who cares?

Most KNOW what people are talking about anyway. And isn’t that the important thing?

Try this on for size…. How many here call Paintball MARKERS, “Guns”? The industry has tried to make that difference/distinction known from day one. And you know what? Most of you still call your Markers “guns” anyway even though it is “technically” wrong. ;) If you look at my posts I am very conscious as to not use the word “gun”, and it seems I am about the only one who takes this care.

So, again, before people start complaining about semantics, and correct terminology, they might do a little self reflection. ;) :D :D :D

Now… I will convey a personal experience with “clips” VS “magazines”. In the US Military, there are few jobs that require a soldier to have both a sidearm and a rifle. I happen to have had one of those jobs. And people may argue that the terms are wrong, but if you are picking up ammo (or sending someone to) and have both, it leaves no confusion when you say “Go get me 3 clips and 6 magazines.” What do you think you will receive? ;)

Often times what is the “common” definition is good enough for 98.999999% of the time and the same % of people. Only when dealing with “technical” aspects is it not good enough. Just something to think about…

[rx2]

I understand your opinion, and I realize that everyday languange need not gross specificities in order to be effective (although people like Wittgenstein might differ). Translations from other languages are often very loose, yet they get the job done, so, imprecision in usage between two people speaking the same language is often of no consequence. I think that some people (such as with your using marker in place of gun) just wish not to put any more fuel on the fire, so to speak, when it comes to ignorance toward paintball markers, and the industry in general.

The average refs or council at many tournaments are not alwyas the most educated. Calling what happens with the RT "runaway" may be more likely to dissuade someone from using allowing the use of RT valves in competition. Whether or not it is justified, the term "runaway" does come with a slight negative connotation that, like it or not, will bear weight with some officials.

It doesn't have to be logical, because minds aren't logical; they are driven by emotion. Countless studies have demonstrated that things such as terminology, appearance, and portrayal, may all skew the opinions of people, despite facts. That is one reason facts haven't been able to shoot down the myths of distance and accuracy.

Or, consider this. A lightning bug (or firefly), when examined closely, has a morphology similar to that of a cockroach. However, a lightning bug has an abdomen that lights up, and has a striking coloration, while a cockroach is a dull, crawling insect. Furthermore, cockroaches are equated with pestilence and filth. Also, the lightning bug has a whimsical name.

Now, taken indivivually, neither will harm you (although the coloration of the lightining suggests it secretes chemicals that have a bitter taste). However, if you were to take one of each specimen and present it to the average person, he or she would be fine handling the lightning bug, but woiuld most likely be throroughly disgusted by the cockroach. Is there any logical reason? No, but conditioning, appearace, and even terminology play a role in making someone so frightened of a harmless insect.

So, to suggest that Jack and Coke is going overboard with his picking apart the terms used to describe what happens with RT valves may be in fact a little bit hasty, and overboard itself. He doesn't want a negative portrayal of the valve, which may be inevitable, but the terminology chosen to describe how it functions will certainly shape how people in the position to ban it will feel towards it.

Finally, I need not reflect. I KNOW I am being way to picky with the use of magazine versus clip! I KNOW it is of no consequence to me whether or not they are used correctly! But, just as some people cannot get over phobias of insects, or allowing terminology to sway opinion, I get agitated when people use certain terms incorrectly. However, I usually let it pass, unlike some who constantly pick apart punctuation, grammar, and style in every post they come across. One rant in seven months isn't too bad, is it?

Whatever the case may be, I apologize, for the original poster's question hasn't been answere in any of these last few posts.

[shartley]

LOL You sure said a lot and actually said nothing much at the same time. ;)

And to think I have been being controlled in my posts lately. ;) I have also been less critical of what people say or post. I have let many things slide. Maybe I should return to my former posting style and attention to detail?

Someone bucking for my position? ;):D

How about this? We will stop calling “sweet spot” “runaway”. We will then just say that any method of making your marker fire in what would be considered “full auto” will get you kicked off most fields.

But then again, we will get those who will argue that “sweet spot” is NOT “full auto” since the trigger actually moves for EACH SHOT (or ball that leaves the marker). LOL So, where will the semantics and “technicalities” end? Who knows. It seems to be something only determined by what a person wants to make a big deal over at the time.

And I find that the battle of “defining” something (in the paintball industry) and then finding ways to make the marker do pretty much what was defined, but in a way that gets AROUND the definition (and rules setup to stop people from doing it), is a never ending battle….. and in most cases just darn silly.

I know that personally I think it is a waste of paint anyways. And since the RT Pro (and any AGD RT marker) was not designed to shoot that way (sweet spotting), I advise against making it do so. I hold no more respect on the playing field for someone shooting a lot of paint (at fast speeds), than someone shooting a rental at slower speeds but hitting what they are aiming at. So do what you want… ;)

[Jack & Coke]

rx@ is right again!



...because minds aren't logical; they are driven by emotion...


Shartley, you are obviously against reactive trigger actions, and that's your right and perogative. That's ok.. :) I'm not trying to make you accept them nor am I trying to make them more accepted by tournaments.

I choose to call it "sweet spotting" because I believe that is technically more correct than "run away".

That's all.

Also,



...And since the RT Pro (and any AGD RT marker) was not designed to shoot that way (sweet spotting), I advise against making it do so...


I wonder how well Butterfinger's Uber RT is feeling...


Originally posted by Butterfingers
the input is only 850...my sear has over 40,000 rds in it its like new...yes there is a way to do it without damaging somthing :)

[shartley]

I have not had to do this in some time, but it seems that you are forcing me to Jack and Coke.


Shartley, you are obviously against reactive trigger actions, and that's your right and perogative. That's ok.. I'm not trying to make you accept them nor am I trying to make them more accepted by tournaments.
I never said that, so obviously you are either reading more than I wrote, or know something about me that I don’t know myself. I never said I was *against* them. I just told my persal preference and opinion. Never did I say that I was *against* them. People are free to do as they please. You may want to go back and read what I wrote, and JUST what I wrote, leaving out any personal interpretations of my words. ;)


I choose to call it "sweet spotting" because I believe that is technically more correct than "run away".

That's all.
So, you want to play “technicality” (or *more* correct) when it suits your needs? I can deal with that. But let’s be honest about it. ;) You say:

"sweet spot" = full-auto (full control)
And sorry, like I pointed out, sweet spotting has been argued using “technically correct” terms and proven to NOT be Full Auto by actual definition.

Do I think it is close enough to fall under “full auto” status? You bet, so in that we agree…. But if you are going to argue correctness of terms, you can’t call it that… sorry. Your rules, your standards. If you don’t want “sweet spot” being called “runaway” because it is technically inaccurate, you can’t call “sweet spot” “full auto” either. ;)

Then you want to “challenge” my saying the RT is not designed to run in “sweet spot”, and use a quote by Butterfingers? LOL How about saying what thread that was taken from? How about saying that he will not even tell folks how he did it because it is NOT using standard parts found in standard AGD Markers? How about saying that every AGD Tech will tell you the same thing “AGD RT Valves and setups were not designed to run in Sweet Spot conditions and doing so will cause problems”?

What you quoted will look much different taken out of context than it was written in. And for those who may not have read that ENTIRE thread, it would look like you are correct, and my statement was wrong. Dirty pool my friend. Here is the actual thread it was taken from….. all members are free to read it ALL and will clearly see that this was a SPECIAL marker with SPECIAL parts. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47925

Next time you try to make me look like I don’t know what I am saying, do your homework… everyone else on AO knows *I* do.

No, I am not upset. Far from it. But please don’t try that again….

[Jack & Coke]

Damn dude, that's one high horse you ride on... :rolleyes:

You post as though I have some beef with you. I was merly stating the obvious. No need to be so defensive... I told you it was OK for you to be against RT's.

Maybe I did misread you, but when I read post after post after post of your take on the RT, it's clear to me how you feel. I don't know, everyone else reading this thread, did I misread shartley's negativity towards sweet spotting the RT?

I'm really sorry if I made the wrong call. I'm sure things would be much more clear is you and I where discussing this face to face.

We have different opinions and positions ragarding sweet spotting the RT. That's ok.:D Let's please leave it at that and return this thread back to boomerfoxtrot.

If you wish to continue this debate, please PM me instead.

Too much drama for one night.

[Red Winger]

Wow, this is getting a little tense in here. Maybe you two should get your "guns" with your "runaway" triggers and grab a "clip" of paintballs and have a ten pace shoot out to relieve a little hostility. Excuse my grammar and spelling as I know that I'm not a genius, just a soul who cares about getting my point across without regard to the minor stuff that is being fought over in this thread. I hope you dont take this as hostile fire but just a little reality check on what you are argueing over. It is rather amusing though.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Jack &amp; Coke
Damn dude, that's one high horse you ride on... :rolleyes:

You post as though I have some beef with you. I was merly stating the obvious. No need to be so defensive... I told you it was OK for you to be against RT's.

Maybe I did misread you, but when I read post after post after post of your take on the RT, it's clear to me how you feel. I don't know, everyone else reading this thread, did I misread shartley's negativity towards sweet spotting the RT?

I'm really sorry if I made the wrong call. I'm sure things would be much more clear is you and I where discussing this face to face.

We have different opinions and positions ragarding sweet spotting the RT. That's ok.:D Let's please leave it at that and return this thread back to boomerfoxtrot.

If you wish to continue this debate, please PM me instead.

Too much drama for one night.
I clearly stated I was not upset, but was pointing out where YOU misread and clearly misinterpreted what I wrote and my feelings on a subject. Now you say I am on a high horse?

Okay, YOU can tell others how THEY feel “obviously”, when CLEARLY they did not write what you said they did. I even pointed out that I DON’T feel as you keep stating I do… and you even said it again in THAT post. LOL

And talk about high horse... Thank you for telling me it was OK to be against something. I really needed your permission and blessing to do that. Even if the fact is that I never was against it in the first place.

YOU can state the OBVIOUS when what you state is WRONG, and clearly so from a “technical” standpoint which is the standpoint YOU wanted to take to back up YOUR statements. But others can’t point this out?

I not only OWN an RT Pro, but am one of the most outgoing about promoting it. I not only push the product, but also promote the valve itself for its recharge rate. So, OBVIOUSLY you don’t know my position on the RT at all. But I am suppose to just let you keep saying what I OBVIOUSLY think even when you are dead wrong? And if I correct you in how I feel, I am being arrogant in some way?

Then you quote another thread (and AO Member) about an AGD RT Marker in a way to attempt to make it look like when I said AGD RT Valves were not designed to be used in “sweet spot” shooting was wrong…. But it was not only very misleading, but down right wrong in itself since what he did to his marker was not “normal” and he even refused to let anyone else know what he did to it. And me pointing that out is WRONG? This makes ME the bad guy? You pulled a sucker punch and it was shown that you did so, but the one showing that you did was the bad guy?

And then after personally insulting ME, you say you are sorry if you made the wrong call and are sure things would be much more clear if we were face to face? LOL Add to that you wanting me to take it to PM if I wished to continue the debate? What debate? I used your own words and standards against what you yourself posted. And you don’t like it. So be it. I showed that OBVIOUSLY you wanted your cake and eat it too, just to be correct and tell someone they were wrong in the “term” they used. Well, you were wrong too, by your own standards. Don’t blame me…. next time post more clearly, use standards to back up your arguments that can’t be used back against your very own argument, and don’t tell people what *they* think about things.

And if you wanted to take this to PM, you could have done so. Don’t come on AO and make a general post attacking me and then ask that it be taken to PM. Most people know that I have NO problems taking things to PM, but will NEVER allow someone to get pissy with me on the open forum and then want me to reply in private. You make a public statement, I will make a public rebuttal, that is how it works.

So you understand more clearly (although I already told you I was not against RT, but you seem to want to ignore me saying so). No, I am not against having a “reactive trigger” or what is known as “sweet spot”. I DO think it is a waste of paint. I also think full auto is a waste of paint as well for standard play. That is a personal playing style and opinion. It does not say I am *against* RT or “sweet spotting”. I also state that I advise against making AGD Markers with RT Valves go “sweet spot” because they were not designed to do that (unlike other markers such as the Tippmann, which WAS). How is this saying I am against “sweet spotting” in general?

Sorry, it is you that seems to have a problem, not I….. and next time you want to get into it, you may want to take your own suggestion and take it privately. Now for the record, I AM upset. Lord knows we don’t want any misinterpretations….

(Note: The edits were to ADD to, not take away from anything I posted. Also, I agree that this whole spat is not even on topic. But I will not allow someone to try to "punk" me and insult me in public and then take my response in private. Being the "bigger man" is highly overrated and honestly gets you nowhere..... except that it would open the door to more "attacks" because they know you will not stand up for yourself.)

[314159]

i personally think that you can shoot better without fully automatic/sweet spotting/runaway.... whatever you want to call it.

next time you are in a car, look out the window at the dotted lines that seperate the lanes. as you drive past themm try taping something every time that dotted line is at a certain point (like under the mirror, front of the car...) you should have a fairly easy time taping every time a line in the median crosses that point you have selected.

now try tapping at a fixed speed (mimicing automatic fire), notice that unless you are taping very fast, you are not hitting many of the lines.

now see what happens when you fit this model to firing a paintball gun in a paintball game.

[pballguy17]

My, i don't remeber who actully started ths thread, but i do belive the question asked was, about how fast can an RT shot while "sweet spoting" "runing away" or whatever it's "technically" called, pulling the trigger so that the gun fires without have to make a concuis movement of the finger forward than backward.

[boomerfoxtrot]

yeah, the question I wanted answered, that hasn't been yet..

how fast can the rT shoot paint?

with runaway, sweetspotting or whatever...

what is the fastest it will shoot... say with Warpfeed and Halo B feeding it... ?

I don't care what you call it.... to me.. it's shooting fast..

[Havoc_online]

ok that's it I'm jumping in here forget what it's called, the valve can do TRIPLE what you pull.

26BPS is how fast the valve can recharge with the recommended pressure(consistent to the gun)

If you up your input, the valve can recharge quicker and is capable of firing in high 30's probably low 40's. In the Paintball world, the valve will never be what limit's the gun, it will be your airsorce and of course loader.

There is no set ROF in "Run-away" or "Sweet-spotting" the gun will be cycling according to it's settings and tolerances so don't expect a straight answer.

The Question is not how fast can the RT fire, but how fast can it be loaded. In the case of a HALO B, suposedly 22BPS

Have your questions been answered yet?????????

[shartley]

20+ bps. As fast as the loader can feed paint, it will shoot paintballs. That simple. It will CYCLE faster than that, but to be honest, unless you can feed paint at that speed, it is pretty much just numbers.

Know that with the AGD RT Valve you will be able to not only keep up with any loader on the market, but also do so with NO shoot down.

So, you should not worry too much about how fast the marker will shoot, but more how fast of a loading system you can attach to it, and then how fast can you either pull the trigger, or "sweet spot" it. With AGD (and even more so with LX) the issue is now not one of "marker abilities" but "loader abilities". ;)

I hope that gives you a better answer, and one more in line with what you were wanting to know. If you wanted HARD numbers, look to the loading speeds of the loaders you plan on using.

(Thanks Havoc... you and I were typing at the same time. LOL)

[boomerfoxtrot]

thanks...

so the Halo B is claimming to feed faster /as fast as/ the Warp Feed? 22bps?

If so, then if I put a warp feed and a halo b on, will it feed faster then that..?

cause out of the break if I could have my RT on the back line pulling 22bps It would rock, and with no shoot down... the balls wouldn't start dropping and rolling on the ground...

The only thing now is, the level going into my rT is 1,000psi (that's what the gauge on the gas through said) so I'm guessing my tank's output is 1,000psi...

is this good..? need to be lower? higher?

[Havoc_online]

(Thanks Havoc... you and I were typing at the same time. LOL) Ya, I thought it was time to jump in.:)


Know that with the AGD RT Valve you will be able to not only keep up with any loader on the market, but also do so with NO shoot down. he's right and this is very important to remember cause Angels and Timmy's etc.(the guns that are SO FAST) begin to get shootdown around low-mid teen's(barely noticeable but measureable), the RT valve barely begins to breath hard in the 20's. Another important thing to remember is that this is with a good consistent airflow from the tank and through the lines, surprisingly I was looked at a lot of RT's at Shatnerball with microline, S.S. hose works best.

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by boomerfoxtrot
[B]thanks...

so the Halo B is claimming to feed faster /as fast as/ the Warp Feed? 22bps?

If so, then if I put a warp feed and a halo b on, will it feed faster then that..?

cause out of the break if I could have my RT on the back line pulling 22bps It would rock, and with no shoot down... the balls wouldn't start dropping and rolling on the ground... stock 9v warp feeds @ 16BPS, a 12v warp feeds @ 24BPS

on the break you will NEVER be able to pull 22BPS, I wouldnt worry about it, for you to shoot that fast it would have to be "sweetspotting" it or in "run-away" either way it wouldnt be legal and you would get pulled from the game.

[boomerfoxtrot]

ok, fine.. I would like to be able to shoot paint.. I mean SHOOT paint... get the idea... good!

I have seen so many of the "pros" running in illegal modes and none of them are pulled...
so is cheating really cheating unless you get cought? YES!! and I don't want to cheat, that's not the idea... I want to stay legal, but FAST.....

[Schnitzel]

i wonder what it would do to the revvy if you hit the 'sweetspot' while linked to an I-frame.....