Final Truth to Why autocockers seem more accurate | And guess what ITS NOT THE ELVES! [Archive]

*ArKfEaR*

09-07-2002, 12:21 AM

Dont flame: No Flames: Just debating: Thats what i would like on this thread. Science and truth not just... #$%#$%^%^&&!@#$&#@$(*@)#$)@******@#*$*@#$**!!&@#&*&! you suck @$#@$ .. get the point?

Now lets begin:

As we all know the most common factors as what determines a guns accuracy and range are: (listed and labeled)

Consistency (Accuracy): Obviously an inconsist gun rising and dropping in fps will alter a balls travel to its target, so this is one of the main factors

Paint to Bore Match (accuracy): A nice fit will make those balls shoot like darts, and in a tight patter as well.

FPS (Range): Higher the fps longer those balls fly, but also more chances of curving and innaccuracy.

Kick (accuracy): Definetly a gun that is kicking hellava lot will throw off a person aiming at a target. So low kick is good so you will constantly be aim'ing at your target.

These are most of the factors scientifically and commen sense wise.

Next is the stuff that we are going to have the debate about:

The reason for Cockers are being accurate is not because they are simply a closed bolt system, There is a reason for this and i am going to explain it to you how well it works. So that means that when the sear is dropped and the ball is fired, all the valves in the gun are sealed. This allows for fewer variables in the output pressure. Also with the closed bolt, the bolt is already forward so there is no air in-between the bolt and the ball, again leaving less play for error and less fluctuation of your fps. Closed bolt systems work well on guns like the Excalibur, but they are lacking the consistency and regulation of the whole process entailing the sear, cocking of the hammer, and so on and so forth.

And dont get me wrong i am not bashing the mags tubular technology cause it owns and now with level 10 its elite. But im still explaining this thoroughly so not only is this pertaining to the mag, also with other non-closed bolt guns.

FooTemps

09-07-2002, 12:58 AM

lol... That title sounds silly but oh well...

Ok, the cocker's still got extremely good consistency over the mag... I can't get my mag to run within +/- 2 like all those other people I usually get +/- 4 to 6 fps. Ok, enough of that... lol, my main issue I wanted to address is the kick. LVL 10 has that superbolt II if you didn't know that already and it's just about as light as superbolt I. That means there should be as much kick as a cocker or less...

freek133

09-07-2002, 01:07 AM

There shouldnt be any air between the ball and the bolt of the mag either, the ball drops in the barrel and the bolt pushes it a little ways farther into the barrel quickly before shooting it out of the barrel. (If I am wrong on that, please correct me) Thats what the video of the gun cycling shows me.

And the On/Off part of the valve, it stops air flow before the gun cycles, wouldnt that be like the cocker sealing all the air passages before it cycles?

If I am right, (which I may not be.. not sure) then you are still mistaken.

FooTemps

09-07-2002, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by freek133
There shouldnt be any air between the ball and the bolt of the mag either, the ball drops in the barrel and the bolt pushes it a little ways farther into the barrel quickly before shooting it out of the barrel. (If I am wrong on that, please correct me) Thats what the video of the gun cycling shows me.

And the On/Off part of the valve, it stops air flow before the gun cycles, wouldnt that be like the cocker sealing all the air passages before it cycles?

If I am right, (which I may not be.. not sure) then you are still mistaken.

If you were right then the mag would be on an equal plane with the cocker... meaning... Tom just really really sucks at marketing... lol... (not hatin... I just needed to make a stupid comment on marketing)

SaS

09-07-2002, 03:18 AM

the automag is all sealed up after the trigger is pulled...
this is why... the on/off seals the front half from the main air source... the bolt is traveling forward but is designed not to release pressure until the paintball(and bolt) are in the foward firing position

level 10 is a minor exception because it's designed for the first half of it's stroke to be low pressure rather then the higher pressure of the level 7 assemblies

the autocockers just doesn't have a moving bolt...
but it still has the striker(do you call it a hammer) that hits the valve the same way as with double stack blow backs...
the hammer(is it hammer?) and the valve can be modified to practically minimal effects on the markers movment(talking about kick)

the manual trigger automags still have the effects of the sear and a main spring returning the bolt...
internal movment: foward / back
automags ..... pressure / spring
autocockers .. .. spring / pressure
patato... patato(that saying works a lot better verbally then in text)

oh... a little experiment to try
closed bolts and open bolts
get a pop can and a softball.. or soda for you coastal folk
with the can still... balance the ball on top
you now have a closed bolt system

now take the can and hold it at a 45 degree angle... use your other hand to hold the ball were it would go...
make it so the ball is in place but only balancing on your hand(not grasping it)
now, QUIKLY, move the can at that 45 degree angle
for the duration of the cans movment(with minimal change from that 45 degree angle) the ball will stay in place(good old physics)
you have a open bolt system

WARPIG.com did a test of open bolt and closed bolt on the same system(one marker that could change from open to closed)

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml

they concluded that there was no.. that's NO noticable difference in accuracy
because they were the same marker system, just different bolt configurations... the different marker system makes the difference(valve, internal set up, and related internals)...
the Autococker is not more accurate because it has a CLOSED-bolt...

i always considered the two markers the same... pick on depending on your taste for their triggers, maintence, upgradablility, service, and just the looks

the thing is... you can find this in BOTH systems... so it really just comes down to trigger and maintence...
but then again... you can modify both of these markers to perform to EXACTLY how you want it... so, to me, it really doesn't matter which one you pick and why you picked it...

each marker is what you make of it and what you CAN make with it

sorry that i got off on a rant... sorry again
I just got my new stuff in today and my mind is just flying through technical data... the automag/autococker was just the victom... sorry again

not ment to be a flame ... it's just a rant

oh one more last thing that i just have to type
there is no difference in range with any marker, it's just accuracy at a distance... fps determines range and accuracy just determines if it curves more, and earlier then with another marker(besides from the normal arc)

SaS

09-07-2002, 03:40 AM

i'm really tempted to start talking... well i guess it would be typing... about the variable amounts of friction in the various parts of each system... how the springs of each system effects each markers consistency and their found variable range of fps with various parts involved...

but no more from me with this... i've typed too much already

also our local sports caster is coming to the field tomorrow and I was planning on playing... would be nice to have some sleep

peace all

**edit** i typed rfp instead of fps... oops****

FutureMagOwner

09-07-2002, 06:27 AM

kick has no effect on accuracy unless you just got the gun. ive seen people shoot real guns as fast as they could and have them all hit center because they are accustomed to the recoil.

P4ULuk

09-07-2002, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*

The reason for Cockers are being accurate is not because they are simply a closed bolt system, There is a reason for this and i am going to explain it to you how well it works. So that means that when the sear is dropped and the ball is fired, all the valves in the gun are sealed. This allows for fewer variables in the output pressure. Also with the closed bolt, the bolt is already forward so there is no air in-between the bolt and the ball, again leaving less play for error and less fluctuation of your fps. Closed bolt systems work well on guns like the Excalibur, but they are lacking the consistency and regulation of the whole process entailing the sear, cocking of the hammer, and so on and so forth.

regardless of fluctuations if I have a cocker and a mag next to each other both barrels at the same degree's both shooting exactly the same fps why will the cockers shot be any different to the mags? for that 1 shot it doesn't matter if either marker lost 50 psi anywhere in the firing sequence providing both velocitys for that shot are the same.

explain?

Paul.

TRIAD

09-07-2002, 11:10 AM

magman007

09-07-2002, 11:23 AM

hmm, you also argued in a previous thread that angels were less accurate than a cocker. you seem to base this all on consistency and kick, well im proving you wrong on consistency.

I know there are angels of +-0 go talk to mykroft, he will tell you. most properlt tuned angels stay thin +-1. my e-mag also stays with in +-1.

PErsonally, i think it is funny, that people bring up old, dead killed topics, that have been proven wrong so many times before, and then go but look see? i came up with new crtap to spew! well its still wrong, there not more accurate, face it.

Jeez, i think people argue about paintball markers like guys argue whether size matters or not. WHO GIVES A CRAP! there both accurate, it is all paint to barrel match.

FYI my e-mag has virtually no kick

What about the cocker? when the bolt opens it has that back block flying back, did you tihnk of that? thats a good amount of mass.

I have owned boty mags and cockers, i know my stuff. TRUST ME! You can believe waht you want, but please dont soil the world with bad info.

I do appreciate you trying though, and taking my advice in the previous thread. Im also happy people have gone reasonally light on you.

rx2

09-07-2002, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by SaS
get a pop can and a softball.. or soda for you coastal folk

This if off topic, but I noticed that SaS used the word "pop." I hear that all of the time where I live, but it seemed everywhere else in the country, it was called soda, especially in the south. I guess I was wrong.

potti

09-07-2002, 11:52 AM

blowback can only slightly effect long strings of shots. if you are firing 1 ball at a time to test accuracy, recoil happens well after the ball exits the barrel.

pete-is-god17

09-07-2002, 12:14 PM

kick/ recoil is minimal in paintball guns and has little to no effect on accuracy if you are used to it.

Ov3rmind

09-07-2002, 12:53 PM

Well, all guns will shoot just as accurately with the same paint/barrel match and same consistancy. The ball will leave the barrel just as straight going from a Cocker as going from a Mag. Some guns are just easier to line up and shoot more accurately however. Balance and kick will both effect how accurately YOU shoot/aim your gun, but it will not effect the balls flight. Another thing is height: taller guns often give the misperception of longer range and/or greater accuracy. After you count in those factors, you can see why some people think Shockers, Cockers, etc. shoot more accurately than other guns like Angels and Mags. The balls travel may be pretty much the same, but other factors determine how accurately the person is actually shooting the gun.

What about the cocker? when the bolt opens it has that back block flying back, did you tihnk of that? thats a good amount of mass.
The Cocker also cycles slower from what I can tell, which would give it less kick. Keep in mind Cockers also have larger bodies (=More weight) which can help subdue kick (except for some of those really light Cockers: SFL, Works, Orracle, etc. Also notice though, they all have very low cocking pressures, which would also lower kick).

kick has no effect on accuracy unless you just got the gun. ive seen people shoot real guns as fast as they could and have them all hit center because they are accustomed to the recoil.
You've never been in a situation where you couldn't hold your gun tight (holding your gun one handed, trying to angle off some weird shots in the snake, etc.)? Kick will make a difference during these times. The fact that the gun moves more after every shot does in fact mean that you will have a slightly harder time shooting it more accurately.

Havoc_online

09-07-2002, 01:25 PM

please refer to my post on top of the second page... http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49243&perpage=30&pagenumber=2

Troy

09-07-2002, 02:26 PM

When it comes to most paintball markers accuracy is in the hands of the shooter not the gun.

Some people cannot hit anything no mater what gun you give them.

314159

09-07-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by pete-is-god17
kick/ recoil is minimal in paintball guns ....

sounds like somebody has never shot a vm-68 ;)

rx2

09-07-2002, 04:53 PM

Speaking of the VM, it was my first marker, which I bought back when I was twelve. The thing kicked quite violently, yet I still managed to get many eliminations with that marker, even stacked against experienced players with "better" markers (quite a few of the team players were beginning to shoot mags). I should also mention, it had no shoulder stock.
Learn your marker, and it will serve you well.

*ArKfEaR*

09-07-2002, 05:13 PM

K guys. Today i went paintballing. And i did a test.

I had my angel.
My friend joes level 10 mag (shoots cocker as main).
and my friend matts cocker.

We all went to the chrono...

chrono'ed the guns at 280.. (as so it seems.. my angel was the most consistent at +/- 2 then the cocker at +/-4 and the mag at +/-8)

We all had just filled our tanks priored and waited for the tank to cool down after testing.

We all shot the feild day paint draxxus blaze.

We all use freaks and used .684 bore on them.

And we then went to the speedball feild. We all put our guns on a table ALL MAKING SURE barrels lined up and no gun was higher than the other or lower. We then set up a target buker... not sure how far but lets say about : 3 man feilds 50: The cocker hit the the Standup bunker in the same spot 3 times, and it was in the middle. The angel hit the standup about a 8 inches below where the cocker hit, and the spread was weird. We let three shots off , they all shot where they were but, one to the left a little and one to the right alot from the first. We then did the same with the mag, the mag hit the lowest... at only a foot higher to the the lowest point in the bunker. But as it was the lowest, it did hit the same spot all 3 times.

Let me conclude that Closed bolt is better. For the people who are saying well you said: Well you are wrong face it, its all old news, its not true. Listen i dont lie, and from what i seen. Cockers are better ok. I will video tape this next time. So i can prove to you why. You guys can argue all you want. What i see is what i say. You guys can say well a gun shooting at 280 fps shoots 280 fps just like any other gun. And your right, all closed bolts that shoot 280 fps will have the same range, and all open bolts that shoot 280 fps will as well. They are two TOTALLY different ways. And the reason why a cocker is different than a mag when it comes to the air entry is cause they are all in seperate parts, so its closed off from the other, therefore as i said before there is less fluctuation going on. As it differs with most markers. I am telling you what i saw today, and i did have rather fun shooting with my friends mag today as well. Im not telling you to all go out and get a cocker cause some people dont like them, its just as simple as that. What i am saying is its true, and what you see cant be lied unless its magic or illusions and of course this was no illusion. This is automags.org and im not expecting you to be like. Oh ark said this so im going to get a cocker. Im just saying "its there" pretty much, play with your mags if you like it nobody else can badmouth it. Paintball is a preference sport and no other gun is better than the other than the one that you like to shoot.
What i am saying is go out and shoot a nice properly tuned and right set up cocker, and you will truely understand why cocker people, are cocker people, as i was educated after i first played with a cocker.

PS: Magmans my hero...

*ArKfEaR*

09-07-2002, 05:16 PM

and also that test you gave me doesnt do no good, considering they do the test on a stingray not a cocker.

And a cocker shoots better than most other closed bolt guns, just because the way the valve was designed.

P4ULuk

09-07-2002, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*
K guys. Today i went paintballing. And i did a test.

I had my angel.
My friend joes level 10 mag (shoots cocker as main).
and my friend matts cocker.

We all went to the chrono...

chrono'ed the guns at 280.. (as so it seems.. my angel was the most consistent at +/- 2 then the cocker at +/-4 and the mag at +/-8)

We all had just filled our tanks priored and waited for the tank to cool down after testing.

We all shot the feild day paint draxxus blaze.

We all use freaks and used .684 bore on them.

And we then went to the speedball feild. We all put our guns on a table ALL MAKING SURE barrels lined up and no gun was higher than the other or lower. We then set up a target buker... not sure how far but lets say about : 3 man feilds 50: The cocker hit the the Standup bunker in the same spot 3 times, and it was in the middle. The angel hit the standup about a 8 inches below where the cocker hit, and the spread was weird. We let three shots off , they all shot where they were but, one to the left a little and one to the right alot from the first. We then did the same with the mag, the mag hit the lowest... at only a foot higher to the the lowest point in the bunker. But as it was the lowest, it did hit the same spot all 3 times.

Let me conclude that Closed bolt is better. For the people who are saying well you said: Well you are wrong face it, its all old news, its not true. Listen i dont lie, and from what i seen. Cockers are better ok. I will video tape this next time. So i can prove to you why. You guys can argue all you want. What i see is what i say. You guys can say well a gun shooting at 280 fps shoots 280 fps just like any other gun. And your right, all closed bolts that shoot 280 fps will have the same range, and all open bolts that shoot 280 fps will as well. They are two TOTALLY different ways. And the reason why a cocker is different than a mag when it comes to the air entry is cause they are all in seperate parts, so its closed off from the other, therefore as i said before there is less fluctuation going on. As it differs with most markers. I am telling you what i saw today, and i did have rather fun shooting with my friends mag today as well. Im not telling you to all go out and get a cocker cause some people dont like them, its just as simple as that. What i am saying is its true, and what you see cant be lied unless its magic or illusions and of course this was no illusion. This is automags.org and im not expecting you to be like. Oh ark said this so im going to get a cocker. Im just saying "its there" pretty much, play with your mags if you like it nobody else can badmouth it. Paintball is a preference sport and no other gun is better than the other than the one that you like to shoot.
What i am saying is go out and shoot a nice properly tuned and right set up cocker, and you will truely understand why cocker people, are cocker people, as i was educated after i first played with a cocker.

PS: Magmans my hero...

Has anyone else performed such a test? I always fancied doing a bench mount test but never got around to it however I'll try this myself tomorrow, if anyone at the field has a cocker! If not it'll be a test between my extreme and an IR3.

Should be interesting!

Paul.
:D

sk8dood

09-07-2002, 05:32 PM

*ArKfEaR*- were you outside? if so did you take the other variables into consideration?

*ArKfEaR*

09-07-2002, 05:34 PM

make sure fps is the same, and make sure you use a freak.

Explane your results. It would be rather cool if your results differed. Cause then the paintball community would just realize that all guns are different no matter what lol.

Make sure the cocker you use the test for is from a cocker person. Not someone new to the cocker world, cause although they tend to seem as they were shooting fine a properly tuned cocker shoots immaculate.

Also anyone else getting lag just with this thread cause it must be on fire! :D

magman007

09-07-2002, 05:35 PM

First off, why am i your hero? sorry, i guess i have to be vein when some one chooses me as thier hero, although i am sure it was sarcastic, im gunna play it along.

2nd off.

The same test you have done has been done by many others. Have blue has conducted this test, he conducted it in a perfectly controlled situation bench mounted etc..... his results were different from yours. He saw absolutely no difference. This makes me wonder why your tests are so much different.

Id also like to state that you said you were using a properly tuned cocker. Why didnt you use a properly tuned mag? A mag can be very consistent if properly tuned.

Also, you should have used the exact same tank for each marker. no 2 tanks are exactally alike, if you used 3 different tanks, it could have affected it.

Also, video would be very helpfull, but i doubt we will ever see it. there fore, i will trust the people that have done independant testing (have blue allong with others)

I wil also trust the man who has invested thoudands to create a gun dyno. that man is tom Kaye. I have seen the dyno, seen it in action, seen it work. I think thats a little more accurate.

Also, the way your describing it your telling me that the cocker was firing at a higher velocity. Olny way it could have shot higher. This is probabally becasue the mag wasnt properly tuned. Oh well, what am i going to do? people just dont face the facts. sorry for the shartley ish post

EDIT: paul, im very interested to see your results, but i already have an idea of what they will be.

Arkfear, you said to make sure the fps is the same, why dont you follow your own advice?

*ArKfEaR*

09-07-2002, 05:52 PM

cause i cant follow my own advice as if there different consistancy issues. We all shoot angel airs so yes we did all shoot the same tank. And theres no such thing as a propperly tuned mag? Theres nothing to tune. You just set your fps, make sure your output is nice, and make sure its clean. Ok... and trust me you will see a video.

Lol magman how can people not face the facts, your the one arguing already. Your the one not facing the facts, i spent about an hour doing this test making sure all the things were right (if you wanna ask a question go ahead)Your the one not facing the facts considering today i did a test gave results and you dissaproved them cause you think im lieing. Im the one who saw the test done, im faceing teh facts from what i saw. I never heard of have blue are you sure he didnt lie and just said they all shot the same cause he had a mag and wanted everyone to feel better cause he beg to differ and was wrong? Or even just lied so there were no problems? Im not calling Have blue a liar as i dont know him but i am saying it was very possible.

I will conduct a video in a matter of 3 months. I dont have the time to do it again and have it video taped and then load it up make sure its high quality etc etc etc. Right now... but you will see it..

magman007

09-07-2002, 07:07 PM

Hmmmm Verry interesting...

Here We GO KIDDIES!!!

Properly tuned mag: New reg seet. You should have deffinitely put one in, that was probabally the baisis of it being so incosistent. also, it should have been oiled thouroghly. If you were serrious about this, you would have um what did you say? "prpoerly tuned" the mag in question to the point where the velocities were consistent. Also, was it a standard, or a retro? if it was a retro, you should have done the test the same way you chrono it.

Also i am curious as to how you mounted the markers. They are each different size and such, how did you do it?

I am just telling you, i know the facts, i know what has been tested many times before and proven wrong. Also, how can you say that the test proving that closed vs open is crap because it was done with a sting ray? why dont you do this. Flip your hoses, and test the cocker in closed bolt fassion, then test it in open bolt fassion. you will see no difference. I havea feeling there is a nother variable you are not telling us. Or the improper tuning and maintinence of the mag was that variable.

how long untill you tell us that cocker barrels are far superior to the twist lok assy? that should be interesting.

3 montsh for a video? by that time no one will carea ny more. Also, that is a good time to edit a video... hmmmm

oh well, im tied of fighting, if you chiise to respond i giess il go another round. I just know what is the truth. you will find it shortly. It is out there, and in the hearts of any constant ao memeber. Also, why dont you take this to deep blue? or ask to have it posted in techncal round table?

wait for me, lemme go find a thread we debated about in deep blue a few weeks ago, il be right back

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43333&highlight=closed+bolt+automag http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20862&highlight=closed+bolt+automag

Kaiser Bob

09-07-2002, 07:22 PM

To ensure they were all shooting at the same angle from the table you need a level measuring from the tip of the barrel. PBstar also did this test of open vs. closed bolt and it showed no significant difference.

the jackal

09-07-2002, 07:59 PM

Quote:
What i am saying is go out and shoot a nice properly tuned and right set up cocker, and you will truely understand why cocker people, are cocker people, as i was educated after i first played with a cocker.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I must have been de-educated because I sold my finely tuned
custom built cocker for an inconsistent, short range, high-pressure chopping machine.

Seriously though, I speak from the experience of shooting both guns for relatively long periods of time and I'll never criticize an autococker because I like them and am currently building one from the ground up are they better than mags? That's your aesthetic choice but in reality where the laws of physics reign supreme, no.

SaS

09-07-2002, 08:24 PM

Thanks magman for talking about the closed/open test

Montana still uses pop... new york, it's soda... i guess more places too
Montana still uses "cool" too, i've been told that it faded out pretty much everywere else

now on to my rant... Part 2

it's a little thing most people like to call... The Scientific meathod...
you isolate all of the variables except for the debated ones
This would be the Open-bolt closed-bolt
(the fewer the variables the better, too many and you get contaminated data. It's that simple, ask your physics and/or your chemestry teacher)
so it MUST BE DONE ON THE SAME MARKER SYSTEM!!

The WARPIG test confirmed that the accuracy from bolt configuartion is all just hype... did you do my test, It's really fun... really

The next word for the day... is Relative

the different bolt configuration has no effect on the STINGRAYS performance... we are not comparing the specs to different markers (that would contaminate the experiements conclusion)... we ARE comparing the difference of the STINGRAYS specs with the two bolt configurations (without changing ANY OTHER VARIABLE)

Test conclusion: The bolt configuration had NO EFFECT on the stingrays performancs... (remember the word reletive) so, the the closed bolt of the autocockers wouldn't change the cockers performance... SO IT DOESN'T MATTER if the autococker is open or closed bolt... any accuracy is dependent apon the other variables that WERE NOT TESTED
(the warpig test was the bolt positions effect on the markers performance and not on the markers performance specs in relation to OTHER markers, only to itself)

bolt position does not matter and thus shouldn't be used in a accuracy debate (please stop bringing this up, switch your tubes and do the test on your cocker if that's what it takes)

now, the OTHER variables are user adjustable... user dependent, if you like that one better

it all depends on what the user did to it, new valve, oiled it, different hopper, and etc...

you can easily say that my cockers is more accurate then this guys mag... but you can't say it for EVERY mag... because EVERY mag and cocker is different....
just think of all the possible combinations of autocockers and automags... sh$#, you even said that the guy with the mag had a cocker for a main

in your terminalogy, you had a cocker person provding the "test" mag

try this test next time... a STOCK autococker(from wgp) and a stock rt pro(or even classic... yet another variable to take into consideration)

In "testing" my custom sfl autococker was more accurate then my friends automag... with a classic valve

COME ON, (throughing scientific method out the window for this comeback) it's like comparing a angel to a model 98

if you did the test again with 2 autocockers... or two angels... your results would be this dye autococker is better then other autocockers... your test only relates to the specif modifications (or lack of) from the different markers...

it has NO relative meaning to relate your conclusion to any other marker... you only proved that your autococker was more _insert here_ then this other guys automag(you even said that he's had a cocker for a main)

oh, the test... use the same tank. Not tank model, but the same identical tank.
did you secure the markers for the test, hold them on a table, put the trigger as it layed on the table?

ok ok ok, i've said too much... AGAIN, and i'm sorry for that again
I'm sorry if any of this sounded harsh... it wasn't intended to
sort of like my "potato, potato" joke/saying attempt

(back to the scentific method)
My General Conclusion About Your Test:
Your conclusions were contaminated by being exposed to more variables then the intended... and then again, what were the intended variables for the test? remember you can only have 1, MAYBE two.

You initial question was faulty and included too many inconsistent variables(and i'm not talking about fps consistency)

my sugestion would be to better limit your testing variables so the collected data isn't as biased or contaminated

Thank you if you actually read through both of my rants

magman007

09-07-2002, 08:32 PM

hmmm, now where is dansim with that owned picture? you kno the one, the one with the plane smashing into the truck? that one best describes what sas and I did to arkfear

Tron

09-07-2002, 08:42 PM

^ Your feeding his point if you say everything has to be perfect to be the same. We never shoot in perfect conditions and if a mag has to be in a controlled enviroment to beat a cocker then your just making the cocker look a hell of a lot better. I am going to finally shoot my new cocker tomorrow but I am bringing my mag and keeping it just in case it blows up.

-Tron

SaS

09-07-2002, 08:44 PM

this one?
i saved it the last time a saw it
lets see if i can actually post it

he did a test that proved to be faulty in it's process
personal changes to the set up of either system still make up a large room for error on bench tests and on the field

he said one statement that involved ALL mags because no stipulation was made about the modifications done to either of the markers involved... BUT, he's statement IS true for the given conditions... BUT with no supporting information related to the variables for ALL conditions, which is what was claimed

magman007

09-07-2002, 08:58 PM

hahaha how about this one sas? http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?postid=430588

Havoc_online

09-07-2002, 09:04 PM

ok guys, we can debate this till the end of time but the point is he obvisously doesnt know what he is doing if he did the test thinking that the velocity setting is the only thing that makes the mag consistent.

he is going on and on simply repeating himself in different ways, he is probably doing this for attention. I made a post in return to his "physics" and "common sense" method of teaching us the error of our ways and all he did was reply with a 1st grade comeback. Then he changed his tactis and started posting on here, this will be my last post in this thread until he argues my post with something worthy of debate.

read his post after mine:rolleyes:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49243&pagenumber=2

magman007

09-07-2002, 09:07 PM

what havoc, no picture showing Ownage? i think you diserve one! you OWNED HIM!

Havoc_online

09-07-2002, 09:10 PM

lol tempting but na, that will probably be his next weapon, from physics to pictures

SaS

09-07-2002, 09:14 PM

That's a great one Magman... I almost fell off my chair

OH OH, a simple test

bench test the performance characteristics of a Stock autococker(straight from the factory) up against TKs (can i call you that Mr. Kaye?) Extreme

that would say if all autocockers are better then the all of the mags... because you put the worse cocker up against the best mag(well... it is Mr Kayes after all)

I completly agree with you havoc... no more 3am rants from me... well, i wouldn't want that single statment apply for everything... hint hint **elbo nudge**

but you got to give props to magmans mickey mouse one... OH, i mean tall, big-eared mouse that is in no way related to the Disney company...

Miscue

09-07-2002, 09:30 PM

http://www.paintcheck.com/articles/protips/range.cfm

300fps = 300fps = 300fps.

When velocity = 300fps and initial angle is the same... Trajectory is identical.

magman007

09-07-2002, 09:44 PM

hmmm so arkfear, thorn !"(·=)$/?()/%"(?/%·? what ever your name is, do you have any more rebuttles?

SaS

09-07-2002, 09:48 PM

i said i wouldn't, but i'm posting anyways... but at least it's not another rant

great pic miscue... i always enjoyed physics class... don't remember that picture ever being in the book, but it should of been

chrisj

09-07-2002, 10:16 PM

Miscue- That's the funniest thing I have ever seen in a mag-cocker debate.

Chris

MagMan5446

09-08-2002, 12:14 AM

I could swear that cool slapping noise my backblock made was the key to the cocker's accuracy....

Tron

09-08-2002, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by MagMan5446
I could swear that cool slapping noise my backblock made was the key to the cocker's accuracy....

Na that's just you screwing it in to far so it hits.

-Tron

EastAl

09-08-2002, 03:16 AM

really guys, you can argue till your blue in the face about which gun is better. it all comes down to personal preference. some guys like mags, some guys like cockers, some guys like stingrays(i don't know why?).
as for the stingray bench test, it's an entry level gun. it will always be an entry level gun. you can't make it perform like a mag or a cocker.
thats like saying, whats better? a mustang, or a camaro? oh, by the way, we did a test with geo metro. and that tells us that a car, is a car, is a car! it has four wheels, and drives. front wheel drive, rear wheel drive. it's still a fricken car. but, some guy out there has to drive a metro, cause it's a cheap car, and it's all he can afford. another guy bought a mustang, beacuase all his friends drive mustangs. and yet another guy bought a camaro because he liked what he saw on a camaro board!

people choose to have, what they want to have. they like to make up reasons why theirs is better, to justify them getting it in the first place!
i shoot a cocker, beacuse thats what alot of the tourny guys shot, when i was a newbie. it was what i was accustomed to seeing high level players using. i never saw any really nice mags. they just weren't that popular in my area. so i got used to shooting a cocker. when i did finally get to see some nice mags, i was so used to a cocker, i had conditioned myself to not like anything else. it happens. just like there are guys who will never even sit in a mustang, there are guys who are gonna tell you a cocker shoots better. and for some people it does.

personal preference. it's all in the minds eye, what is better for you!

1stdeadeye

09-08-2002, 05:44 PM

My buddies and I took three cars to the track. We had a corvette, BMW M5 and a porche. We ran all three. The corvette lost, therefore it must suck!:p

Arc-Physics don't lie. 300 FPS-Same Barrel=Same results. If the Mag wasn't set up well, it won't run as well as your tuned and timed cocker.

Arc,
Please take a physics class before you start another one of these pointless threads.

P.S. Take an english class as well! ;)

Temo Vryce

09-08-2002, 06:06 PM

Accuracy is 99% dependant on the person holding the marker. If you can't hit the broad side of a barn it doesn't matter what you have for a marker. As for your little field test. You tried hard I'll give you that but you should have had the same tank on all 3 markers as well as the same person firing all 3 markers. No two people shoot the same way. How you hold the marker, how you squeeze the trigger, how many shots you are taking... These all affect the accuracy.

Oh one final comment, you did say something that is true about cockers in your title.

Why autocockers seem more accurate

If we could convince enough people that talons were more accurate than angels soon we'd have praising them. Don't always believe the guy shooting his mouth off at the field that this is better than that. Believe the data that proves this is better than that.

Read "Deep Blue" and "Technical Roundtable" forums for hard data that is believable.

I'm done know.

*ArKfEaR*

09-08-2002, 06:57 PM

Wow this is cool, ive been gone for two days came back and im seeing exactly what i was expecting to see. Well for one, it was not a retro. For two, my friend joe whose mag it was was well taken care of and im sure it was working properly. How was i owned? Hrrm very interesting cause the way i see it was from my view, i was not. I mean i did the test; i saw the results with my own eyes. You can’t change my mind, what i saw is what happened simply as that. You can definitely disapprove of my results and of course blab on about the fact of my results was because the mag was not tuned right which is poor bs and excuses. The barrel lengths were 12 inches on all of the guns. But of course that shouldnt matter right? Cause barrel length of a paintball gun doesn’t affect the range? Hrrm. Most of you also said as well i probably didnt know what i was doing. Explain to me parts that i didnt do right, cause i know what there was to be done. Also you said that i had to do it wrong considering that i apparently said that if a gun is shooting 280 fps those are the only factors needed. Seems weird to me cause i definitely states more factors within the test than just that. As well as the 3-month thing, no sorry im not going to edit the movie. Its just that i dont have time to do another test like that. And 3 months is just an estimate when i have time to get it organized. I myself dont care cause i did the test and saw what happened. You guys on the other hand have not so your thoughts are absolutely different and most of them are "rants" towards me of how the mag was probably broken etc etc etc etc. Seems every time i explained a question or answered a comment to someone in which it had proven them wrong. You just seem to make up more stuff in which means nothing. Just have patience and you will see the video. I also believe most of you do not believe me cause the results favored with the cocker, i also do not mind as well. You forget i did the test and i saw them with my own eyes and what i foresee cannot be changed. You also forget that the mag didnt do so bad it did hit the same spot all 3 times, but at the lowest point. I have nothing else to say, cause each time i reply with a proper answer and/or comment to someone else. You either will come up with more excuses as why im dumb and didnt do the test right etc etc etc etc. So i believe there’s no further chat needed cause you will most likely ever believe my results until you see them. And even if i do this video sometime soon and show it. You probably still wont believe me and still come up with more excuses. And i bet you if the favors were towards the mag and the cockers results were the lowest everything would be just dandy. I bet you if i posted this in the angel forum and the angel was the lowest the same thing would happen. As a matter of fact i bet you if any certain gun was at lowest, and was posted in a certain forum the same exact thing would happen. But if the results were positive to the certain "gun's" forum everything would be totally different. Instead of well what about the other guns, and such. It would be for instance i told you mags were the best and, go mags, mags were always good. But of course since that didnt happen i received negative feedback. I would really appreciate to see more tests done by other members. It would be cool to see if, you guys got same results, different results. The only thing is i bet if your results also disapproved of your "gun" (mag, angel, cocker, timmy, etc) that you would either change around the results or just say that all the guns shot the same.

PS: magman is still my hero

TRIAD

09-08-2002, 07:16 PM

I'm not even going to try to read that English Teacher's Nightmare of a Post you just wrote.

1stdeadeye

09-08-2002, 07:26 PM

ARKFEAR,
Learn to spell please!!!!

Are you a teenager? Take a physics class!

The reason that all three guns did not hit the same spot is because your test was not set up correctly. I did take physics at the University of Maryland. I can make any test come out the way I want it to with the slightest of variables changed. For a valid test, everything must be set identically. I don't care if this was a rebel/spyder/tippman test, if done properly, the results should be the same. Take that physics course. The only thing it will hurt is your GPA.

Remember 300=300=300.

I'll leave you with this quote:
Figures don't lie, but liars can figure!

magman007

09-08-2002, 07:33 PM

HMMMM, funny. you argue that a propely tuned cocker is the best there is, but when i tell you you werent using a properly tuned mag, you tell me that that is bull crap? Arkfear, stop while you are ahead. Two respectable internet companies have done tests showing no difference (I.E. warpig and Paintball star), So how dows yours differ? Did you even read the posts in deep blue i posted for you?

Not to mention, have blue, a very respectable man in the world of paintball will tell you the same thing. Also, a man by the name of Dan"aka Maghog" and the owner of triggernomics will tel you the same thing, as he compleated the same test. I have as feeling your eyes are decieving you. Either that or your lying to us to cover up your mistake that you made in Reoths thread. I dont know, all i know is that you have repeadtedly put down Us at AO, you have flamed many of us, and we are tired of it. PLease, understand that you are wrong, we know the facts, and we do not believe you, why is that? because we know the facts.

Im sorry you are wrong, but we will forgive you if you just admit your mistake.

If the mag had been properly tuned, it would have been a solid performer. I guess that is all i have to say.

Also, what paint did you use? did you use the roundest paint you could find for your test?

I will tell you right now, closed vs open doesnt matter.

Also, i will tell you that mags are quite consistent, as consistent as your cocker (saying the reg is probabally more consistent then the reg on your cocker any ways)

If any thing is properly tuned(sounds like the angel wasnt either) it will be a solid performer.

I am done arguing with you. You are 19 act your age, im 16 , quit arguing with me like your 10. Im freekin tired of it.

Kaiser Bob

09-08-2002, 07:46 PM

To be honest if you said the mag had the most range out of the guns, I would still question your testing process because it just should not be! I will restate that you did not document any meaningful way to make sure the end of every barrel was perpendicular to the ground, or at least at the same angle. That alone would change where the balls would hit by feet. That is also why i disregard the results of your test. Try again, but make sure to get all your varibles out of the way and come back.

PS. Check PBstar.com for a test that was done right.

Rooster

09-08-2002, 08:25 PM

And theres no such thing as a propperly tuned mag? Theres nothing to tune.

What was that sucking sound? Oh, your credibility going right out the window. Its been proven that open bolt, closed bolt has nothing to do with accuracy, give it up already. Its like the germans saying the Holocust never happened. Just becuase you really really hope its true, just doesn't make it true.

Its called marketing hype, and you are its wittless pawn.

Polishpickles451

09-08-2002, 08:49 PM

First of all I am going to admit that I what I am going to write isn't backed up by really measured out experimentation. Next, I have owned 2 mags and 2 cockers and have tried numerous barrels on each. I have come to the conclusion that accuracy is mainly dependant on paint quality, with bore size as a second factor. Yet, I have found w/ the same tank (flatline) using the same barrel (lapco bigshot) shooting 260fps my cocker was definatly more accurate. Ever notice on a mag when you dry fire it there will be alot of air going up the feedtube (blowback)?
Properly timed cockers have very little blowback, hence the lack of powerfeeds on cockers. I do believe that a closed bolt system does provide better efficiency. Why? Because while in a mag (and other open bolt guns), there is considerable air lost going up the feedtube, in a cocker, the bolt is sealed behind the ball and 90% of air released is behind the ball.
Paintballs are inherently inaccurate, it's not really an issue of the marker. I think that persuing better "accuracy" with barrels and what not is pretty useless. I remember getting a long awaited freak and finding it to be no more accurate then any other barrel. Markers are considerably more accurate then they used to be, but this is due exclusively to refinement in paint quality.
Why my cockers were more accurate then my mags is not clear. Could it have anything to due with the nubbin in the barrel vs. a cocker nylon ball detent? A more likely culprit now that I think about it is that my mags broke paint and that would effect accuracy :rolleyes:
But we all laugh at the newbies who wanna know how to be "snipers", because it doens't take long to find out in paintball that range and accuracy are not what paintball markers are good for.
And yes, cocker vs. mag is preference.

*ArKfEaR*

09-08-2002, 09:09 PM

Hrrm spelling seems fine to me. Most of the replies as usual have to do with nothing. Ummm most of your "so called spelling errors" are just laziness and abbreviations. :(

magman007

09-08-2002, 09:11 PM

hmmm, polish, i gotta dissagree, mags used to have massive quantities of blow back, thats why they origionally had the powerfeed, was so the ball ricocheted into the breach, but now, with the long nose bolt (lvl 10 and stock on mags) the blowback is cured. i can put a tissue on my powerfeed and not have it blow off. I think your paint breaking therory is the best.

The nubbin vs balldetent i feel is pointless. The stock rt barrels even went to 2 nubbins and that proved to have no difference. any ways, that is also solved, because now there is the extreme, with cocker barrels and ball detents and such

EDIT: mods, can we just close this? it is already a flame fest, and we arent getting any where. Im not backing down to false evidence, i am just asking to finish this for good. 99.9% of ao knows the truth, so it isnt worth arguing any further.