WDP makes false claims

[drx975]

I am reposting this information as a new thread so people will read it. I think its interesting yet annoying at the same time, anyway...

In an Emag vs Angel opinion or debate or whatever you want to call it, WDP made some false claims in the latest issue of PB2X (oct. 2002), and I was extremely shocked at what they claimed, ESPECIALLY with the release of level 10. Here are the 2 things they claimed about the IR3:

1-WDP says "The IR3 has COPS (Crystal Optical Pinch Sensor), this is also patented and is the only non-optical anti-chop system on the market today, COPS has no external components or wiring." We all know this is not true, Level 10 is a completely mechanical anti-chop system also.

2-"The COPS is allows users to crank the ROF up to 20 balls per second....There is nothing out there that shoots as fast as the IR3." WHAT?! They CANT be serious! The emagnum has been shown to shoot 30 balls per second (if a loader could feed that fast), and the emag itself is shown in the level 10 video to shoot 20 balls a second easily. This drives me crazy when companies claim these kinds of things.

I think I would email WDP about this but I dont think it would make a difference, they won't listen because they dont have to. This is why people think they have the best gun -- they dont know that companies are lying to them.

[Havoc_online]

they know what's up.....Just goes to show what they are willing to do in an effort to try and control the market.

[mrhooie]

Well, in WDP's and APGs defence an October article would have been concieved in May or even June

[Dern]

hmmmmmm.... sounds like WDP thinks the emag is it's top competition ^ ^ GOOD! EMAGS SHOULD BE THE TOP!!!:cool:

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

i just thought of something, when (howmant bps) will it take before the bolt is moving so fast that it isnt physically posible to load a ball in there because its going so fast... if non of u under stood me im sorry its 6 a.m. and i been up all night, good night :o

[Jonneh]

what do you want? do you want them to say on their ads 'DON'T BUY THE IR3! IT IS SUCKS!! GET TEH EMAG INSTEAD!!!1'

It's not that big a deal, geez.

[shartley]

Yes, you have to look at the dates that was actually written. The first claim could be fine and well for when it was actually written, just outdated by the time it was published. I can not fault them for that.

The second claim however can not be excused so easily. But you can not use the EMagnum’s “shoot rate” as proof though… although I wish we could. And that is because you can’t say it will shoot that fast IF you can find a loader that will feed that fast. Claims like that are great for US, but for the rest of the industry it is pretty useless as a measuring stick, and for marketing purposes, to show that it is indeed faster than any other marker. (I hope that made sense.. LOL) But what CAN be done is use the original HALO tests and show what marker they used to DO the tests. :D

And we are entering into an age that the BPS capability of markers is almost a non-issue. Most of the top markers will keep up with the top loaders now days anyway (and pass them), and it does not matter if the marker itself can shoot faster than that since they will not be able to fire actual paintballs faster than the LOADER will allow. It is like arguing that Car A can go 200MPH and Car B can only go 150MPH, but neither can legally go over 65MPH and BOTH can reach that point (and even higher) at relatively the same times.

What you are left with is HYPE, Looks, and Quality and Reliability issues (and what it will cost you to get these)…. BPS falls to the wayside. Those left arguing BPS will be noobs who just don’t “get it” (and I feel that way NOW). The days of technology giving the user the upper hand and compensating for lack of playing skill are fast becoming history. And this is because until some MAJOR advancement comes along, we are at a “tweak” stage and not a big “advancement” stage for paintball markers. This, my friends, is a GOOD thing.

But until the general public realizes this, the manufacturers are still relying on “perception” to place their marker at a higher “status” level than their competitors. We, however, know the real deal… and complaining about it on a forum that knows the deal does little good…. Do as many of us do, take it to the field(s). Nothing convinces skeptics and the uninformed more than showing them the truth in an actual playing situation… hand on.

Don’t preach to them… SHOW them. ;)

[1stdeadeye]

D@mn straight SHartley! I couldn't say it any better myself, so I won't.

Please Excuse the rest of this post. My two year old wanted to type on the computer.:D
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[dansim]

emags taking over the top spot? its just not gonna happen

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

KILL THE NON-BELIVER HEATHEN!

[FeelTheRT]

w0rd up with that. Intimidators are currently the flavor of the week.

[dansim]

as much as i hate that its true feelthert....damn him and all his milling!

[yeahthatsme]

emags would be on top if they didnt way 5 punds(including tank and what not). the angel can be used by little-old people and not have a problem. it gets tiring carrieing around a 5 pund gun in a game. thats why the angel and timmy are so much more popular. if AGD would reduce the weight of the e-mag then it might take the top spot.

[magman007]

ummm cnc Extreme? there lighter than the fly angels......

[Fred]

Originally posted by dansim
emags taking over the top spot? its just not gonna happen

What brand of crack are you smoking??? Did someone from PBNation pass you that pipe???


Wyn's C&C is light.... I love it!
the IR3 I got to check out at shatnerball (set up with warp/tank/hopper) was not nearly as comfy, and I noticed the weight difference.

---Fred

[drx975]

Yeah a few things: One, I know the BPS doesnt really matter as I dont even feel a stong need for a retrovalve, and two, it is possible the article was written before the release of level 10, yet, I noticed a picture in the same issue of that magazine with a picture of a Level 10 Xmag, captioned "Level 10 Xmag". So this makes me think that its also possible that it was written after the release of the Level 10. My point of this post was just to show or point out the fact that companies can lie, and probably do, so you shouldn't believe everything you see. I remember seeing this quote: "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.".

[dansim]

trust me you havent even seen wht the ir3 is capable of doing plus agd has a long way to catchup to wdp, either way the longer the extreems are delayed(maybe even more than you know) the further they have to come by the time there out everyone is gonna have there 2003 models out

[Angry Man]

The emag will never become more popular than the angel, but it doesn't have anything to do with performance. The angel has a brand name; I was talking with my tippmann loving friend (doesn't have a marker but thinks that flatline tippmanns are as good as it gets)and the only marker I could convince him was better than a tippmann was an angel. The fact is that more big teams use angels and they're advertised better.

And emags aren't as super incredible as everyone says. Other markers can shoot 20bps too, other markers have good trigger pulls, and other markers can not chop and weigh less/are balanced better. Emags are awesome, I'm not saying a word against them, just saying that WDP has reason to be proud of the angel, and that it's things like what they said that pissed all of you off that keep them so successful.

My friend added "angels are SO fast, some fields ban them." They have the hype behind them, and WDP is just trying to keep it that way.

[Cliffio]

Originally posted by Fred
and I noticed the weight difference.


depending on what ir3 you were holding


the CNC is only 2 oz ligher than a stock ir3


Cliff

[Bulldog]

I feel so warm and toasty now, my sig was mentioned. :)

[wes]

Originally posted by Fred


What brand of crack are you smoking???







i think its called angel love juice or somting :D

[Phweedo.com]

If you are going to get technical drx975,

The Matrix fills all those catagories as well, so you must give credit there. It has a mechanical anti-chop system ( a la Trinity) and it can fire 20+ bps.

[pito189]

Originally posted by magman007
ummm cnc Extreme? there lighter than the fly angels......

They are lighter that is true. But where can you buy a CnC at??? You can go to any store in your area, order a Fly Ir3, and have it within 3 weeks in any color you want.

If you can get that now with an CnC you are either Tom Kaye himself or God.

Thats the simple fact Ir3's are WAY more available to the public right now.

[WhoDaresPlay]

Originally posted by drx975
1-WDP says "The IR3 has COPS (Crystal Optical Pinch Sensor), this is also patented and is the only non-optical anti-chop system on the market today, COPS has no external components or wiring."It's actually called Crystal Operated Paint Sensor. The simple fact that PB2X couldn't even get the name right shows instant "credibility" on accuracy. Not to mention, when COPS was released it was the only one one the market, LVL10 had not been released to the public or beta tested at the time.

2-"The COPS is allows users to crank the ROF up to 20 balls per second....There is nothing out there that shoots as fast as the IR3."They're not lying. The CMROF on COPS is 20bps. They never said the marker will shoot 20bps (no one can pull the trigger that fast) but rather the CMROF can be set to 20bps.

I think I would email WDP about this but I dont think it would make a difference, they won't listen because they dont have to. This is why people think they have the best gun -- they dont know that companies are lying to them.

I think before making claims or writing petitions you should at least understand the content of the article and the way the IR3 functions.

It would be like me saying: "The E-Mag sucks because I said so." When in reality I would never say that because I've never owned one.

[drx975]

Im OK with everything you said but this

2-"The COPS is allows users to crank the ROF up to 20 balls per second....There is nothing out there that shoots as fast as the IR3."They're not lying. The CMROF on COPS is 20bps. They never said the marker will shoot 20bps (no one can pull the trigger that fast) but rather the CMROF can be set to 20bps.

You missed the point. The point is that WDP thinks that no other gun can shoot 20bps when clearly the Emag can. Its nothing pivotal in the sport of paintball, just something I wanted to point out; that hype isnt always true. And come on people, give me a break already, let me say something without it being shot down. Any time I bring up something like this, it gets shot down by some Cocker or Angel user. Notice how I didnt list people who own guns like Spyder, Tippmanns, Impys, Timmys, Shockers, Draguns, Matrices, (and Mags of course), etc.

And Phweedo.com, sorry I didnt include Matrices or any other gun capable of firing 20bps, because I am honestly not familiar with those guns. I dont use electronic guns, because I dont feel the need to :).

[WhoDaresPlay]

Originally posted by drx975
You missed the point. The point is that WDP thinks that no other gun can shoot 20bps when clearly the Emag can.

No, didn't miss the point.

Air systems all claim to have the highest flow and best recharge. People don't cry bloody murder and write petitions to SP when someone proves them wrong.

I honestly could careless if my marker can shoot 20bps or not, and I'm a die hard Angel/WDP supporter.

Tell me now, in manual semi-auto fire, who can honestly sustain much over 14bps, let alone 20.

[Cliffio]

im with whodares, i mean i dont shoot over 13 anyways, so whats the difference

[dcmander]

Originally posted by Cliffio
im with whodares, i mean i dont shoot over 13 anyways, so whats the difference
Well the point is WDP made false claims...But most companys do. That's marketing. That's business. That's life.

Just causes AGD doesn't do it as much as (or not at all..I woudln't know) doesn't mean that is a huge sin for other companys to do it. It's just in the sport, just gotta ignore it and shake your head. (or you fist, if you wish ;) )

[WhoDaresPlay]

false claims, black smoke, whatever you wish to call it... they make an excellent product and provide excellent service.

[Doc Nickel]

And if we wish to pick the truly fine nits, most of us- including you, me, Tom, Dick and Harry- can only rarely exceed even ten shots per second.

Yes, in short bursts a few can exceed that, but even those very fast individuals simply cannot sustain that- by the end of the day, it's down to around 5 to 8/sec.

But, to use the automotive analogy, speed sells. The Viper and Corvette guys will argue top speed and accelleration times, quarter-mile times and skidpad power... But few places outside Germany's Autobahn allow anything in excess of 65 mph.

Anything faster than that is largely irrelevant, but that doesn't make the 'Vette and Viper crowd argue any less.

The COPS system is a clever way to incorporate an internal ball-position sensor for an electronic gun. Why add a bunch of parts and complexity to use an LX-type mechanical antichop to something like the Angel, when the electronics do the job as well?

The L-10 system is also an extremely clever way to add chop resistance to a mechancial gun. Why add a pile of electronics to the gun to get what this one does with a few parts?

Both sides have valid arguments, and "Angels suck!" or "'Mags Suck" are sadly not valid arguments, they are opinions- and like strings, every yo-yo has one.

Doc.

[P4ULuk]

Originally posted by pito189


They are lighter that is true. But where can you buy a CnC at??? You can go to any store in your area, order a Fly Ir3, and have it within 3 weeks in any color you want.

If you can get that now with an CnC you are either Tom Kaye himself or God.

Thats the simple fact Ir3's are WAY more available to the public right now.

Well I sure aint Tom Kaye so that must make me......

I could of had any colour extreme I wanted, I only waited 3 weeks, maybe 4 at the most for it!
How long was the wait when IR3's were first released? and also how many problems have people had with them? we have 4 IR3's on our team 3 of them have had 1 problem or another!!

Regards,

Paul.

[P4ULuk]

Also its not really about pulling 14/15 bps over a sustained amount of time.
Of the break with my emag set at 8 bps hardly any paint i coming out my barrel for a couple of reasons, trigger timing to effectivley get 8 balls a second I have to hit the trigger at exactly 1/8th of second intervals i wack it up to 20bps and I have a higher chance of hitting a desired bps.
I can feel the differance with my marker being set at 16 and 20 bps.

Paul.

[pito189]

Originally posted by P4ULuk


Well I sure aint Tom Kaye so that must make me......

I could of had any colour extreme I wanted, I only waited 3 weeks, maybe 4 at the most for it!
How long was the wait when IR3's were first released? and also how many problems have people had with them? we have 4 IR3's on our team 3 of them have had 1 problem or another!!

Regards,

Paul.

Sorry let me add. And you are in the United States.

[P4ULuk]

The point still stands though you couldn't get an IR3 for a while when they were first released.
We are lucky we got to see the design before it was released and also some of us have been able to get hold of one before official release.


Paul.

[pito189]

How long after the Ir3 was released to the public could you purchase one with realtively(sp) no wait?

The CnC was released at IAO, respectively to the public. Still nothing.

[P4ULuk]

Originally posted by pito189
How long after the Ir3 was released to the public could you purchase one with realtively(sp) no wait?


Couple of months at least, for all the pre-orders to be satisfied.

Paul.

[WhoDaresPlay]

I received my IR3 in exactly 19 days after they released it on 2/2/02

[pito189]

I'm just worried that AGD might suffer some loss, because of the time it is taking for the CnC to get out there.:(

[P4ULuk]

Originally posted by WhoDaresPlay
I received my IR3 in exactly 19 days after they released it on 2/2/02

Did u pre-order? if not shhhhh you're ruining my arguement :rolleyes: :D :D :D

Pito the same things worry me, but what was their option, they either released when they have done and in effect find out what demand is like for the new product or hold off release till they have a big batch of stock that might never of sold due to people not liking the product, thats a big gamble in a relativley small industry!

Paul.

[pito189]

Originally posted by P4ULuk


Did u pre-order? if not shhhhh you're ruining my arguement :rolleyes: :D :D :D

Pito the same things worry me, but what was their option, they either released when they have done and in effect find out what demand is like for the new product or hold off release till they have a big batch of stock that might never of sold due to people not liking the product, thats a big gamble in a relativley small industry!

Paul.

Good point. I hope people will deal with the long wait. Its a great product.:)