Intimidator Cycle Speed (VIDEO)

[Top Secret]

http://www.wickedairsportz.com/products/cycle1.mpg

Just saw this on WAS's page. Supposed to be 32cps. I don't have a sound analyzer so i'll let you guys take a crack at it.

[Top Secret]

Ok come on there have been 43 views and no replies...

[lunchbox]

i once saw someone do something with the model 98 that made it shoot air that fast the thing is what happens when a ball is sent in there. cycle, sure fine you can fill the chamber and make a pop real fast but, just cause you gun goes pop dont mean anything other than yeah the valve can open real fast. mag vids all use balls in them cause they show they can do it where it needs to be done. lets see that vid again this time try firing that fast with some balls.

[WhyIsItUpsideDown?]

Wow, Im suprised. Well not really:) The emag with emagnum sounds the same way give or take bps.

[WhyIsItUpsideDown?]

Oh also a Spyder without a sear, oh wait, that is a timmy!

[Butterfingers]

I belive it is accurate. The peak is about 32 BPS the average is about 30 in the vid. You can see that the gun is at the limit because it can only produce 32 bps sporaticaly. If you extropolate elsewhere it is below that number.

I am also surprised that the tank actually kept up. Every other tank that we tried resulted in a 300-400 psi drop in output from the tank at 30 bps. This might mean the intimidator is suffering some shootdown because the "air out of the tank " isn't consistent with the e-mag's "air out of the tank" The e-mag is likely flowing more air.

If you compare to the e-mag vid it is exactly 30 bps wherever you decide to extropolate. Not only that but each of the peaks are almost perfectly consistent. Im am not sure where the limit is but I can tell you the gun handles 30 bps with no problems, like it was designed to run that fast. The gun still has the ability to go even faster.

We only chose 30 BPS because it was a nice round number. I havent even hit the upper limits yet with the e-mag.

[rudy]

About the tank, well on a low pressure gun you could probably jack the input to the reg up to 800 and It probbably would have a good recharge, I cant say it would be very conssitent with that high of a difference, 600 psi or more. also I think that because the mag is not a very efficient gun it probably is a fairly hard gun to feed air to. I have seen several videos with guns shooting a claimed and somtimes proved 20 bps and they arent having big problem with drop off, so I am starting to wonder just how fast other regs are maybe they are much faster then I thought.

[Hemlock86]

thats special.........lets see him do that with paint!

Who cares if it can cycle that fast. Noone is the world can pull faster then MAYBE 17 bps, and thats pushing it...more like 13-14. Its impressive, but means nothing.

[rx2]

I agree that it is a bit of a novelty, but proving such cycling rates isn't completely without merit (as long as the cycle is a full, completely charged cylce). It is sort of like headroom with and amp: most people will never go beyond certain levels, and in some cases no one ever could, but the added headroom ensures that it will always function with clarity. If a marker can cycle perfectly fine at 30 cps, with no drop-off or malfunction, then chances are it will have no problems cycling at 13 cps.

Also, most people don't even consider that they will never achieve that ROF. Show them something flashy, like 30 cps, and they will be that more likely to purchase the product.
They can then tell everyone "my marker can fire at 30 cps, can yours?" Then they will probably get eliminated because they are the sort that doesn't understand the sport, and is too easily caught by gimmicks.

Of course, I think that it also probably has much to do with ego on behalf of those with interests in the marker than anything else.

[magman007]

ok, mags are not extremely inconsistent. Theye quite consistent if taken care of properly. Retros are even more consistent at high rates of fire. I agree, how much drop off os that timmy suffering? that is what i would like to know...



Id also like to point out that you cannot clearly see the watches. We all know Was's reputation, so it makes me wonder.


Also, he has very ugly hands

[Load SM5]

Sounds cool, totally impractical.

I also like how he feeds it with a warp instead of a turborev.

Turborev- THE SMARTEST GOSHDARNED LOADER IN THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!

[Blennidae]

I am not for or against WAS, let me first say that.

I just wanted to point out that he has provided a video of a timmy cycling at a high rate. Some people have replied with comments about drop off and malfunctions.

I haven't bothered to go back and check, but I don't remember there being as much negativity when butters did basically the same thing with the emagnum.

We shouldn't praise one and bad mouth the other. The videos are basically the same thing, a modified marker cycling very fast.

The real proof is with a hopper full of paint, and even that doesn't much count in the "real world" of rec/tourney ball as those modes aren't allowed.

[rudy]

magman007 i dont know if you were talking to me but I never said mags were inconsistent I said that I wouldnt be surprised if the reg on the timmy was incosistent cause they may have had to put a big difference in input pressure vs output pressure through it to get it to keep up. or they just didnt bother and they are expirencing drop off till the flow can keep up. or maybe the reg on the timmy can fully keep up who knows.

[davidb]

I have to agree with Blennidae here, you should give the devil his due.

However...

In my opinion all he has done here is shown the absolute max that the Intimidator can do (as evidenced by its obvious struggle to maintain the peak ROF), giving Butters and Don a solid number that they can beat with the E-Magnum. If you'll remember, as Butters pointed out, in his video the E-Magnum was firing 30 CPS no matter what point you selected to examine, and it didn't seem to be struggling to maintain that ROF.

I have to wonder, though, just how special these conditions are. I mean, did he start out with a nearly empty tank, or was he just really cranking the air into the thing? I mean, that was around 400 shots, probably less, and he ran out of air at the end. Could simply be because he started out with a low tank, but if not, I think it's safe to say he was expending at least about twice the usual amount of air per shot.
Of course, if he was low in the first place, then all of this is a moot point.

Butters, are you and Don going to wait 'til he runs his mouth off about having the new fastest gun, or just go ahead and take him to school? :D

[manike]

The funny thing is that WAS has just given us more evidence that he makes claims before he has proof.

He claimed to have had a gun cycle at 35cps, and that it could cycle at 41.6cps... and yet he makes a video of it cycling at 32cps... Why make a video that is once again short of what he was claiming? why stop so close to what would have maybe made his claims?

It's an impressive video but I'd like to be certain that the bolt is opening fully.

I once got a bushmaster to cycle very rapidly, but under investigation although it was pulling the bolt open far enough to close and then knock open the valve again (thus sounding like it was firing shots and cycling properly), there wasn't enough time for the bolt to cycle completely back opening the breech and thus noway it was a complete cycle.

Just because the bolt is clearing the eye in the middle of the breech did not mean it was continueing back far enough to open and load a ball.

In fact just operating the bolt until it just cleared the eye would be a great way to make it look like it was cycling faster than it could.

Nice video, proves his lack of evidence before making claims for me, and I still don't believe him even if he does occasionally tell the truth. He is all smoke and mirrors. Maybe he has cried wolf once to often.

manike

[Butterfingers]

Well if I were going to prove anything again, it wouldn't be with my gun my e-magnum is being sold.

Perhaps I can coax Don to do it.

As for WAS im not doubting anything at this point. Until there is sufficent evidence to prove otherwise.

[i-luv-my-rt]

rudy- i'm not sure what you meant by turning up the output pressure to 800, b/c if you turn the pressure up going into the gun above say 500 you will blow the soloniod. I think you meant turn your tank up to back it up with enough air but when you do that you depend on the secondary reg to keep up with 32cps. You would have to have a good combo to get it to cycle that fast with no/low shootdown.


I think it is cool when people test the limits of markers these days. We all know WAS has been a jerk about stuff in the past but now he has backed it up with this video. I dont care what he said in the past but now he has shown a Timmy shooting 32cps. These days i would say timmies are one of the top markers in the tournament seen. Were starting to see less angels and cockers and more Matrix's and Timmies.

I dont care about who's gun is faster and blah blah but it is cool to watch these videos and see whats going on with these new guns.

Mad props to WAS from me!!!

[Thordic]

Honestly, WAS's reputation or no reputation, I don't quite understand the problem here.

Is anyone doubting a standard stacked tube blowback marker can pull off 30 cps? Pi managed to do it with an old spyder clone, why couldn't an Intimidator, which is a "big boy" spyder, essentially, do it too?

I find it kinda sad that when Butters posts his 30cps video, everyone drools and goes "OMG thats great!" but the second ANOTHER gun is shown going that fast everyone starts yelling "Fake!" "It cant be real" and all these other negative comments.

[wyn1370]

Second to thordic
Even if it wasn't WAS making the video, you guys would all still piss in their cheerios. But I bet as soon as butter gets a 35bps, everyone will be bowing down to the greatness of the mag.
For the record I'm still more impressed with my GZ then my CNC extreme. My GZ worked straight out of the box. My extreme didn't. It had a bad bolt, the ace doesn't work like it should and it cost $500 more.

[FrAuStY]

I don't have sound at work..so can't really be "sure" of what I watched, however I will say this. Thord, Wyn, I know you guys have been on here a while..and yes I agree..sometimes we choose to support the mag before all else. BUT, the videos we "drooled" over were valid proof. Butterfingers had a watch in PLAIN VIEW easily read when the video was being shot.

This guy has two watches...which as far as I'm concerned, may as well not even been in the video. What good is a time guage if you can't freaking read it. Not only one... BUT TWO! He tried to validate his claims using two, but neglected to get them in a legible place. Not saying he sped the video up because it doesn't seem to skip or anything, but why go overboard with two different watches. It's like he's saying "I wouldn't lie to you..see I used TWO watches."

I'm still not impressed as I've had my spyder cycle failry quickly when I removed the sear and just pull ed the hamer back and let it fly. May not have been 32 bps...but it was pretty freaking quick. Does that mean we should bow down to my spyder and give it praise for being a fast marker? Nope. I want to see the gun fire that fast... hell break 25 BPS that butters did WITH PAINT! Then..I'll be impressed..until then.. it's just another person getting their gun to CYCLE at high rates..not deliver paint at that speed.

You say...in the real world no one will fire that fast and it's not allowed in tournies. Who's to say five years from now.. NPPL won't raise their standards up to like 20 bps? By then hopefully the paint will be made better...be easier to break, thus less painful and would cause less bodily damage (bruising etc). Then a higher rof won't be so bad. So sure..."right now" it's not worth attaining that ROF but in a few years it may be.

We know the Emag will SHOOT PAINT at 25 bps, it will probably shoot at 30 if we had a loader to feed it. And it will shoot consistently at that rate. Will the GZ timmy? I don't know... why? Cuz this guy doesn't provide CLEAN LEGIBLE PROOF that it will. I'm gonna go home tonight and bring up wave table and wave studio. I'll find the video of the Emag cycling 30 bps and I'll disect this video of WAS GZ timmy. I may even go so far as to ghost the two wave forms together one in red...one in Blue. Then we'll see how consistent the pressure is... and the ROF. I'm not bashing anyone's opinion... just throwing mine into the pot.

BTW -


Originally posted by Load SM5
Turborev- THE SMARTEST GOSHDARNED LOADER IN THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!

ROFLOL! Thats hilarious... him and his Artificially intelligent loader board. Thats funny cuz I'm sure my microwave has faster processors in it...but it won't answer a single question I ask it. Hmmmm mabe I'm the dumb one..

[kutter]

Kudos to Frausty, I do not need to post anything more as he read my mind concerning the 'cycle vs. shoot' comparison.

Of course I am not nearly smart enough to figure out what the heck he is talking about that whole, 'ghosting on a wave table' thingie. :D

[Thordic]

Frausty, taking out the sear isn't "cycling"

A cycle involves a normal gun cycle, which has to involve all parts of the gun that are supposed to be involved in a normal cycle.


And people drooled over the mag videos without watches in them too.

[manike]

Thordic, because of the way the mag works it's very difficult to 'cheat' a full cycle and have the gun firing without it completing a perfect cycle each time. So if you hear a shot, it's almost certain the gun is completing a full cycle. The bolt has to latch on the sear for it open the on/off fully and release a charge of air. So for each shot you know the bolt latched properly. There is no such thing as a 'death' fart with a mag :)

With a blowback or a ram operated gun it is actually quite easy for the gun to make the sound of a shot without it completing a full cycle. It's quite easy to make a gun sound like it is cycling properly even when it is not, hence the death fart when low on gas in blowbacks etc. It sounds like rapid firing but the gun is not actually latching the hammer back and thus not completing a full shot.

With a ram operated gun you can achieve the same thing by sending the ram forward before it is fully returned. You still get a hit on the valve and a blast of air, but you never complete a full cycle. I've known of this actually happening with some prototype eyeboards where the gun registered the bolt as a ball in place and thus fired again and again without the bolt ever opening fully... It was a bug that led to a very convincingly high rof for those that didn't realise what was happening, but where the bolt was never completing a full cycle.

It is an impressive video. It's not conclusive, and I wonder why it isn't at 35cps... but it's still cool to watch.

manike

[Thordic]

Simon-

I'm aware of that, and I agree. But anyone who really wanted to find issues with a mag could say they sped up the video, etc etc.

In any case, I don't see any reason why an Intimidator wouldn't be capable of firing at 30+ CPS (with full cycles).

I also understand it would be much easier to fake this.

Unfortunately, my intimidator is limited to 14 BPS on full auto, or else I'd be perfectly willing to test it.

If anyone wants to buy a morlock board for me, program it, and ship it to me, I'll be more than happy to test whatever amount of CPS you want :)

[rudy]

i-luv-my-rt if you read my post you you will see I said



incosistent cause they may have had to put a big difference in input pressure vs output pressure through it

when i say a big difference between input vs out put i mean input=tank output pressure and output is the guns operating pressure or what the ongun reg is set too.

meaning yes i am talking about the tank out put pressure. And yes it does effect how fast the reg can recharge quite a bit. 800 psi gas has more pressure so it can move in and fill the gun to 150 psi or whatever the gun uses then say 300 psi. also it has more molecules per volume so it can get by the small passages of the valve and fill the gun to its operating pressure faster. unfortunately it is usually less consistent to run a huge difference like that. but you can bet many people do it cause many dont have adjutable tanks.

also i would like to point out that running 500 psi into the intimidator should not blow a solenoid if i understand the gun correctly because the only air going to the solenoid is regulated by the lpr which is set too 100 or 50 or whatever

[Thordic]

I sent a PM to Vern from Petty about this thread, maybe he'll come over and have some insight :)

[i-luv-my-rt]

Rudy- that was my bad I didnt totally get what you were saying.


I'm not sure of how the LPR and soloniod are set-up on a timmy so i'm not gonna make assumptions or whatever.

I agree with Thordic. Also i think it is very stupid that we are arguing over stuff like this. If people want to talk let them talk, theres no reason to pay attention to them it only gets you mad.

[gatorchris]

If you run much more than 100 PSI past the LPR you risk blowing the noid, 120 is for sure going to nuke it, so I dont see how over-pressure is going to help this situation. I have to say Im kind of annoyed with a lot of the Timmy bashing Ive seen in this thread. I came over from PBNation during the "WAS trials" and read a lot about how AO was above all that, but it seems your laundry is just as dirty as everyone elses. Why is it so unbelievable that the timmy can do 32 cps consitently? What in your technical knowledge says it cant? Thats why I respected this board for the most part, everyone took a technical approach, if they lacked the information to formulate a knowledgeable opinion they usually didnt say anything negative or positive. Some of you are letting the WAS thing roll over into hate on the timmy, and thats wrong. Now on to some info I can relate to this thread.

The input pressure into a timmy (inline reg if you have one) will usually not exceed 300 psi. This pressure fills the LPR and also provides direct pressure to the bolt to fire the ball. Thus adjusting this pressure up or down will affect the chrono and can increase the available pressure to the LPR. If there was a cheat this would be the only place to do it. Simple test would be to make the vid show a chrono of a few balls before opening it up full auto. The LPR accepts the inline pressure and provides pressure to the noid which moves the ram back and forth. Pressure usually runs in the 75-90 psi range, with drilled barbs people are reporting 60-75 psi range. The stack tube design has the bolt pinned directly to the ram, which gives you your cycle speed. As said before, upping the pressure to the ram over 100 puts you in the nuke range, so I doubt he did this. He has also reported that upping the pressure to the noid actually decreases cycle speed, something to do with O ring friction because of the increased pressure, dunno exactly, its counterintuitive to say the least. Another simple "fix" for this vid would be to show a close up of the LPR pressure so we can see what its running. Also would be handy for him to put a gauge on the torpedo reg to see what its running as well.

On a side note, please stop with the timmy/spider crap, its silly and off base. If your comments can only bash the marker why bother posting it?

[RobAGD]

Ok first off you could run 1200 psi into the intimidator ( provided teh gun itself wouldnt cave under that pressure ) and not blow up the solenoid, you know why ? Becuase the noid only has the LPR suppling it with air. It a differnt circuit so no mater the input the noid ( witha good reg ) is still in its happy place of 85-95psi. Now jacking the pressure up that high might cause other problems such as the ram not being able to smack the valve hard enough to fully open it or with that much pressure it might not even budge. Thats when you start playing with springs and what not.

Yes she was refering to supplying the velocity reg with a high pressure to help keep the shoot down at bay.

-Robert



Originally posted by i-luv-my-rt
rudy- i'm not sure what you meant by turning up the output pressure to 800, b/c if you turn the pressure up going into the gun above say 500 you will blow the soloniod. I think you meant turn your tank up to back it up with enough air but when you do that you depend on the secondary reg to keep up with 32cps. You would have to have a good combo to get it to cycle that fast with no/low shootdown.

[rudy]

gatorchris with out rereading the post i dont remember anyone talking about overpressurizing the lpr whats your deal with that? Every one knows about was claim of faster cycle with lower pressure out of the lpr which probably is the result of a inferior soleniod

[gatorchris]

There was talk of overpressuring, I was just providing input on what and where it could happen. You also posted this, which you admitted you dont understand the marker fully. Robo, I thought the discussion was related to cycling, not shootdown. Cycling of course comes from the noid moving the ram, and the LPR supplies the noid, and the inline supplies the LPR. We all seem to agree on that. I guess my direction was to negate the question of "boosting" and its effects. If the LPR isnt keeping up the cycling will go down because the noid would starve, so what good does it do to only boost at the inline? And springs? There is only one spring on the poppet, and it wouldnt help since its keeping the valve closed ;) If anything you would have to up the LPR to compensate, which of course you cant do. I fully understand the timmy, Ive been shooting them since they were the big ugly marker with two funky things on the front :D Either way, I thought I read some talk about boosting the pressure and blowing the noid, matter of fact the quote in robo's post mentions it. It appears everyone here does NOT understand the marker.


also i would like to point out that running 500 psi into the intimidator should not blow a solenoid if i understand the gun correctly because the only air going to the solenoid is regulated by the lpr which is set too 100 or 50 or whatever

[Vern1]

Greetings,
It DOES cycle pretty fast WITHOUT paint, don't it.
How fast is it?
I don't care!
Show me something with a PERSON actually pulling the trigger in Semi-Auto while shooting paint if you want to impress me.
Full-Auto "no-paint air gituar" will certainly impress newbies and amuse some folks - throw in a few splits, high jumps and a spandex suit and you have a complete show.
It has a place in demonstrating capabilities, but no place in the "real world" of paintball.
Real no-trigger-bounce tourney legal one-shot-one-pull semi-auto paint shooting WILL win tourneys, not FA.

OK, now for some Timmi info, this is here to inform and not flame or anything, just educate:
The stock Torpedo doesn't like more than 500 PSI going into it or it will eventually leak and over pressureze the valve. The internals are a direct copy of the Palmer Stabalizer with the exception of the seat. The Torpedo uses a urethane o-ring and the Palmer uses a harder seat that will stand higher input pressures. Yes, you can put the Stab seat in the Torpedo and run at higher input pressures just like the Stab - that's the hot ticket for folks with a screw-in HP(700-850 PSI) tank.
When you go over about 350 PSI into the valve assembly, the LP reg/Solenoid doesn't have enough forward momentum to open the poppet fully and the balls will just roll out of the barrel.
The LP reg uses the same exact components as the Torpedo and is a pretty good regulator. Like all regulators, they like clean air and some lube on occasion.
The Solenoid is a COTS (commercial off the shelf) unit that is rated for up to 125 PSI. As a safety valve, the hoses usually will leak or blow off if you approach these pressures - but don't count on it saving your 'noid EVERY TIME.
When you get over about 100, the solenoid does drag more because of internal friction of the o-rings expanding due to the pressure. It also flows better at a slightly lower pressure because of internal turbulence when the air gets to flowing around corners, o-rings, etc. Cavitation is the term I have heard used, but sounds kinda funny to me in this instance as we are talking just air here and not a mixture of air and another fluid.

How does it work(rememeber this will happen many times a second!)
1. You pull the trigger
2. The eyes "look" at each other to check for paint in the breech.
3. Eyes see no paint - marker delays, then fires leading to a possible chop or pinch (the WAS board has a forced mode that won't shoot unless the ball is fully seated).
OR
Eye sees paint and fires immediately by triggering the pulse to the solenoid.
4. The solenoid opens and sends LP air to the back of the ram.
5. The ram moves forward taking the bolt and hopefully the paintball with it.
6. The ram hits the valve at the end of travel and opens up which pushes the ball out of the barrel with HP air.
7. The solenoid goes back to it's unpowered state and the LP air is redirected to the front of the ram sending the ram/bolt back to the starting point.
8. Go back to 1.

Hope this clears up some confusion.