Worst and best bang for the buck. Mid range tourny guns.

[Dubstar112]

What is the best and worst bang for the buck in tournament guns with your opinion. Ones in bold are either currently owned, or have owned in the past. The others, I have shot with somone elses set up, and it appealed to me.

WORST first!

1. Impulse. Simply put, nothing but problems with mine. Inefficient, poor lay-out.

Best!(most priced first.)

(I havent shot an Emag in a game, there fore I wont include it.)- Can be found mid range price when used.

2. Intimidator. Old Style. Very slick with that dorky, yet AWESOME gun look. What I mean is that it looks like poo, but shoots like you know who(angel). Consistent, fast, No need for upgrades

3. Bushmaster, dont know what generation. no frills, efficient, fast.. what more do you need?. Worth every penny.

4. Classic mag. Simple! Moderate amount of upgrades for visual, and some for performance. I added a hyperframe to my mag. Fast as an angel. Then I sold it for the Worst gun.

[Nitroduck]

Worst priced -

RightFeed stock Cockers (for $10 more you get something tons better, a VF Cocker)

Epic - $650 for a piece of crap

Best priced

Bk0 - Full electronic gun for under $300, great.

Classic Intimidator - all the goodies for under $600, ACE, fade, milling. Although I think it has its problems, and hate the fact BL is gonna phase em out, still nice guns.

B2k3 - The thing that'll replace the Classic Intimidator for best bang for the buck. 2 piece barrel, nice milling, deacent ano, ACE at 22bps, nice inline reg, highrise, delrin bolt, blade trigger, non-swooped gripframe. For a MSRP of $600, great.

Stock VF Cocker - a mainstay of PB weaponry, for only $350. Great bang for the buck, really doesn't need much at all.

[Bulldog]

I think Epics are acually in the 750's if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise read as no way in heck. I had a ton of problems with my impy too, but I here the newer ones are better.

[cris8762]

IMHO the BEST TOURNEY GUN (for what you get for ur money) is the:




IMPULSE!
i love the impulse because you can easily upgrade it with:

1. new trigger (under 30 dollars)
2. a new bolt that reduces the kick to almost nothing (also under 30 dollars)
3. and a solenoid optimizer that will make your gun more efficient/quiet/and reduce kick depending on what you get (these can range from 20-75 dollars depending on what you want)

many people complain that the imp has tons of solenoid/circuit board problems, but most of these problems were with the pre release imps, or with the older style.....almost every new style imp that i've seen (including my own) has run great!

so for 500 or under (or above depending on what you want) you can get a kick *** marker that will compete with many higher end markers

PS: mags rock, i love my mag, i just prefer my imp as my main tourney marker

[Skoad]

I have never owned an impulse but the local proshop's team shoots them. If you get them setup right they rock, and are fairly cheap.

But best bang for the buck would have to be a mag, hands down.

[TransMan]

Worst: EPIC "Wow I have an 800$ gun that shoot 6 balls a sec":rolleyes:

Best: BKO

[Dubstar112]

Well, if Impys are so good, why doesnt any one want mine? Err, no one wants to buy a broken gun.. even though i just spent 160 dollars to make it work.. then crap out within 10 minutes of a saturday's play. :):mad: :confused: :D :confused:

So, yeah, I suppose they can be good. I want a gun that will be good no matter what :)

[edwardjcarlson]

To me the worst bang for your buck is any SP product, sans the freak.

Best is the BKO. I know cause I shoot one. Crap, $220 for a gun that shoots this smooth. Makes me feel sorry for my bro who just laid out $800 for an E-mag and needs the level 10 just to shoot. Choppa, Choppa ;} (His is a much prettier paint shredder than mine tho)

[puckmaster]

First-the best gun- I would say an 68Automag powerfeed. they are cheap, and are easily upgraded, with a lot of upgrades. you can make one into a torney level gun.

Worst- I'm going to have to go with the BKO. I have one and my friend has one. None of them work how they are supposed too. I live by the factory, so i can take them down whenever I want. For 1.5 months, I have taken it down to ICD, them always fixing the current problem. then it breaks again. just a piece of crap in my opinion.

[mykroft]

Best bang for the buck: Ultimate Vision Impulse, Air, AA, Vision Impy for the price of a base Angel.

Second: BKO

Worst: Excalibur: Slower than an Angel, more money than an Angel

Second: Angel, killer gun at a kill yourself price.

[Automaggin2]

Originally posted by puckmaster
First-the best gun- I would say an 68Automag powerfeed. they are cheap, and are easily upgraded, with a lot of upgrades. you can make one into a torney level gun.

Worst- I'm going to have to go with the BKO. I have one and my friend has one. None of them work how they are supposed too. I live by the factory, so i can take them down whenever I want. For 1.5 months, I have taken it down to ICD, them always fixing the current problem. then it breaks again. just a piece of crap in my opinion.

Well, the first batch of BKOs were a little funky, but, hey, all new guns have there problems! like, hmmm when the angel debuts, it had problems with the cupseal not sealing completly because the gun was made in england, where it wasnt made to handle 100 ddegreee plus weather here in america. And, hmm, the first bushmasters had faulty o rings a a little bit of board problems.....hmmmm....impulses? impulses had problems to......want me to keep going?


And Impulses, IMO, are waaaaaay overated. I dont see what so great about that, i prefer a bush2k over anything (except emag xtreme), and the 2003 bushes are AMAZING!

Best : BKO
Worst : i wouldnt say epic, considering they shoot like a dream, so i will say a vertical feed shocker, its nice an all, but not worth the 700-850 doller price tag

[Ov3rmind]

Best Bang for your buck: 68 Mags and 2k2 VF Cockers (both basic guns which can have tremendous performance when upgraded), and the BKO.

Worst bang for your buck: Imps. The stock guns are tall and have pretty bad triggers as far as electros go. Only plan on an Impulse, it you're going to upgrade. If you want to buy a quality electro for that price, get a Bushmaster.

[i-luv-my-rt]

I'll start off by saying I would never buy an ICD gun. They are all together horrible. They have made so many "generations" and still havent really boosted the quality of the gun. I've heard good and bad about the BKO, i shot a display model and it reminded me of a cheap impulse. But for under 300 bux i guess it's a cheap way to go electro for tourney use.

I feel the best is the Matrix. Stock for 650 and the rock. I wouldnt leave it stock but for around 600 you can get an awesome used/upgraded one that should never let you down. I have 2, an old slide switch and an LCD and both of them are excellent markers. I feel now that i am never switching guns.

I'm a pretty big fan of angels but they didnt totally fit into my style, but also great guns.

When my impulses worked they were sweet but the quality can be cheap sometimes. Overall not bad.

I would never use a mag in a tourney. My emag was sweet but i didnt like the feel of it. Also, i sold it before the level 10 so i might have kept it if i got that.




All together i think that Matrix is the best!!!

[boomerfoxtrot]

well this is my thoughts..

Back player, means you need to be able to lay the law down! lots and lots of paint! Being a back player your job is to cover the front and mid players. This means you need a gun which you can fire left and right handed 10+BPS.

I would look into either an EMAG, or even an RT. You can get yourself a good RT with Z-Grip or Intel, LVL10 and should be able to pull 10+BPS easy. That is the cheapest way to get the hook up.

EMAG will allow you to shoot even faster!

I have fired an Impy and I don't really like there ROF.
With the RT and EMAG you will NOT get ANY shoot down! unlike the other guns, if you start unloading and get in the High ROF they like to shoot down. (Volicty Drop)

If you want to spend the Money, get you a GZ. They are VERY nice, and fast. But the EMAG is much faster. Even the RT is faster. but it all depends on what gun you like. Find one that you love. I went through 12 guns... then I found my RT... now even an EMAG.. so find something you like, and something your happy with.

oh wait.. maybe you should get an Auto Cocker, cause I mean.. we ALL know that shoot futher, and straiter! lol

I would stay away from Cockers as a back player .. unless your going to spend major $$ and get the Electro cocker.. they just aren't fast enough. but that's my thoughts on it.

[Nitroduck]

Originally posted by i-luv-my-rt
[B]I'll start off by saying I would never buy an ICD gun. They are all together horrible. They have made so many "generations" and still havent really boosted the quality of the gun. I've heard good and bad about the BKO, i shot a display model and it reminded me of a cheap impulse. But for under 300 bux i guess it's a cheap way to go electro for tourney use.



ICD guns rule.

I have to laugh at you saying ICD never improved the quality in the generations. A teammate of mine has a 1st generation serial # 250 Bushmaster, compared to a new one off the shelves, theres almost no comparason, ICD replaced every single part on the gun except the solenoid and bolt. They replaced the gripframe, barrel, LPR, ASA, Regulator, Highrise, cut down on weight tremendusly, added a anti chop eye, trigger, added anodizing free. ALL WHILE LOWERING THE PRICE. No other gun on the market ever has done that.

A cheap Impulse ? How is it cheap? The fact it preforms better out of the box than a Imp?

As a side note, Smart parts made 4000 Impulses that were defective, compared to ICDs 200-300 Bk0s and 500 Bushmasters, theres a big contrast on quality control.

[boomerfoxtrot]

the topic is Impluse.. don't waste your money.

Unless your getting a custom job.. like the Freak Factor Impluse. Or the Nasty Impluse, or even the Toxic Customs Impluse. $1000+

other then that, your going to spend WAY to much trying to make it fire like something you wish you would have bought to start with.

the new B2K2 are nice... and have a good low price on them. The are quick too.. but get yourself an RT or EMAG.. they are much faster.. and with LVL10.. mags are the best now. Before, the only reason Mags were not on top was b/c they CHOPPED way to much paint. But now, with LVL10... they don't chop!!!! Hopes this helps.. and Nitroduck has good info in this post about the recalls... very nice

[Automaggin2]

Originally posted by i-luv-my-rt
I'll start off by saying I would never buy an ICD gun. They are all together horrible. They have made so many "generations" and still havent really boosted the quality of the gun. I've heard good and bad about the BKO, i shot a display model and it reminded me of a cheap impulse. But for under 300 bux i guess it's a cheap way to go electro for tourney use.




You have got to be kinding. dont post false facts, because the B2k has been imporved so much over the past few years. look at the new 2k3 Bms, they have 2 piece barrels, ACE eyes, and badass milling. And for the generations, each generation has something changed on it. They either have board or internal changes or they have cosmetic changes. i cant belive you actually said that. how bout i say the Matrix is crap because stock it chops like a mofo.

[orderofreason]

Well, i'd have to say worst bang for the buck in the midrange for guns..... more than likely i'd have to state that ANYTHING by ICD. I've owned ICD guns, my friends currently own them. ICD tech support has been nothing but horrendous, the gun's CONSTANTLY go down (and no, it's not because of anything i do, i keep proper PSI input pressures and keep the regs at the right level.) On my team, there is a defiant that was purchased february of this year, and it finally started working for longer than 10 shots this past weekend. If ICD had the tech support that Smart Parts or Airguns has (which Airgun Designs nukes everyone...) i'd be impressed. When i hand a gun over to an ICD tech (apparently a guy named Adam, the head tech) in Pittsburg, i kinda expect the gun to be working when i gas it up, not leaking like crazy out of the solenoid and LPR (another trip back to ICD...whee....)

I currently own a vision impulse and maxflow. By far, it's the best investment i ever made on a paintball gun. There are techs everywhere, (not that i need them, nothing goes wrong) it fires like crazy and doesn't have a ram that uses a spring (which, when snaps, causes a nice 100 dollar repair, something i found out with a defiant). Overall, the impulse is a better version of the Bushmaster/Defiant.

Best bang for the buck right now? I'd say impulses or RT LvlX automags. Level 10 mags are paint hoses and man...they scare people. I'm basing a lot of my decision on the support offered, and ICD fails....MISERABLY. Airguns? Flying colors. Smart Parts? I've had things shipped to my door overnight free of charge and the local SP techs are top notch. I might have to use one in the future.

The Order.

[magman007]

ok, the old gen 1 and 2 bushier were pretty bad, my firend has one, and when it works its niiiiccceeee, but hees always fixin it, i feel bad for him.


Bushies are nice, the new ones work, i donny why were all raggin on em. I feel impy's and busshies are ok, but in general, they suck, in my whole opinion.

Your best bang for the buck is a used e-mag. with prices in the 600´s, you can beat that. the most you would have to do is drop in LX and a timmy 63 blade trigger. The TL63 is a must, it is sooo much nicer than the stock trigger

[Automaggin2]

Wow, so ICD has bad technical support? well, my friends reg blew, and he needed a new one for a tournament. hes call them up, and 2 days later, he has a brand new reg, and didnt evenhave to send his old one back. I cant belive people say this no sense. And i bet the reason your bushy is breakin down, is becuase, we all know, the stock reg sucks. Just like i said about my friends stock reg breaking. And i bet 100 bucks your running a preset tank right? well lets see, your runnin 850 psi into a crappy reg that has to work 5 times harder to regulate the pressure down to 250 psi compared to if you have a adjustable tank.

[Dubstar112]

Well, Im starting to have faith in my Impulse. I ordered an adjustable trigger for it. That should make it 100x better :) Im lookin at a FF mod. I guess, since I have the gun, I will put the money into it. I still have plans to sell it at sometime.

i-luv-my-rt.. this one has worked good when it worked, but those times are few and far between.. I hope to have that problem solved. And improve the reliabilty/performance with this new trigger. The stock one has so much play, that if you push it to the side and pull back, it wont fire untill you let it go straight :) !!

[FeelTheRT]

The best bang for the buck is the classic Intimidator. Currently there has been a craze for the 2002 and GZ Timmies, but they do have a hefty price tag to them. The classic model shoots just about the same really so that is why i think the Intimidator is the best buy.

[orderofreason]

Well automaggin, if the stock reg sucks ont he bushmasters, doesn't that mean you've just added more to the price tag of the gun by having to buy the asa and a new reg? Oh, and dont' buy anything other than a vigilante, because everything else voids the warranty apparently (that's from another ICD tech.) And if i took you up on that 100 dollar bet, you would have lost. Horribly. I ran a macdev conquest into the gun running at 300 PSI output into the reg. Now that could have caused shootdown, but blowing up everything shouldn't have happened.

If i wanted to use a preset tank, i would get the preset piston for the inline regulator that ICD installs if you request it. Dont' make like i dont' know anything about paintball markers because you got lucky with ICD, i've probably called them about a dozen times and all i get is the runaround. When you tell them that you've had the gun worked on 6 or 7 times by ICD techs AND IT STILL DOESN'T WORK, then they say "well, send it in and we'll get to it" it really doesn't give a good message to customers. Here's the message

"We know that your Defiant/Bushmaster isnt working. We know that 6 techs, including the head tech you handed it to at pittsburg's IAO couldn't fix it, charged you for the repairs and parts (we're at 200 bucks right now) and told you it works. That's not our problem, send it in and we'll get around to it. "

I'd like to go on record stating that Smart Parts FEDEXED me a vision board free of charge OVERNIGHT (!!) after the adjustment pot on mine went faulty because i mentioned i had a tournament.

Kindly do not make assumptions about my knowledge about markers.

The Order

[agdemagman69]

I started playing with an impulse, and i upgraded(i-frame, bolot, freak kit, internals,etc.) it over a period of a year. with the upgrades it cost me a total of about $950 then i sold it and got an emag....

The emag rocks because you dont need to upgrade it, and its soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much smaller.

[Nitroduck]

Just for the record , as of this month , ICD now puts gladiator regulators and verticle ASA addapters on b2k3s and bk0s.

Wow , doesn't ICD suck? they put $100 in aftermarket parts stock on thier guns , isn't that horrible? Oh yeah , gladiators don't void warranties either.

The reason they say that vigis and such don't void the warranty is becuase they can only go low pressure , if you run most regs that are hp or lp you can damage the gun by too high of pressure. Isn't that horrible, putting a part that can damage the gun will void the warranty! Doesn't that make icd a bad company , they void the warranty because a customers stupidity.


PS , i own a bm2k , so do 2 of my team mates , none of us have had any real problems with them.

[Nitroduck]

Originally posted by orderofreason

If i wanted to use a preset tank, i would get the preset piston for the inline regulator that ICD installs if you request it. Dont' make like i dont' know anything about paintball markers because you got lucky with ICD, i've probably called them about a dozen times and all i get is the runaround. When you tell them that you've had the gun worked on 6 or 7 times by ICD techs AND IT STILL DOESN'T WORK, then they say "well, send it in and we'll get to it" it really doesn't give a good message to customers. Here's the message

"We know that your Defiant/Bushmaster isnt working. We know that 6 techs, including the head tech you handed it to at pittsburg's IAO couldn't fix it, charged you for the repairs and parts (we're at 200 bucks right now) and told you it works. That's not our problem, send it in and we'll get around to it. "

I'd like to go on record stating that Smart Parts FEDEXED me a vision board free of charge OVERNIGHT (!!) after the adjustment pot on mine went faulty because i mentioned i had a tournament.

Kindly do not make assumptions about my knowledge about markers.

The Order

If know know so much about ICD stuff, you'd know that piston is installed in every single Bushmaster since serial number 7500.

Want to hear about my Smart Parts customer service stories?

I sent a Shocker into them for repairs because my local SP techs couldn't fix it. SP took 3 weeks to send it back. When I got it back, it was broken. I then called SP to get it repaired again, they sent me a faulty solenoid to fix it. After that, they sent me another solenoid that actually worked, but by the time I got 500 shots off of it, the gun went down again (3 days before a tourney)......After that I said screw SP and never went back ....Never had a problem with my Cocker or Bm2k ever.

[Thordic]

Intimidator is a great gun at a great price.

As for shooting fast, thats a close call. Intimidator is capped at 14 unless you get an SOB or Equalizer board. Emag is capped at 20, but most likely you won't even hit 14.

I think that shooting speed is about the same once you customize your Timmy trigger.

Straight outta the box, personally, I could shoot an emag faster. But the Timmy has a 3-point adjustable trigger, once you adjust that to suit your taste, and maybe change the trigger spring, you'll be ripping in no time.

I don't think that a classic mag will be out a Timmy or an Impulse, though. RT Pro, maybe, but not a 68 classic.

[orderofreason]

I apologize for being completely inferior for defending my statements for obviously being blatantly ignorant for not knowing about the preset piston.

I never once stated that i knew much about ICD, i just love this sarcastic "i bet you put a preset on there..." crack from automaggin.

Basically here's what i've discovered.

My experience with ICD has been horrible. Yours hasn't. This automatically makes me stupid. I like smart parts, also something that isn't good.... The bushmaster i owned and still have access to has a serial number in the low 2000's and the defiant is in the same area. I bought the bushmaster new. I have found ICD tech support to be less than spectacular, I am not responsible for the gun's failure due to the fact that i am properly following the specifications for recommended input and output psi and following the proper cleaning procedures. It would follow that the GUN's failure was either a problem during assembly (and no, i dont' take the gun apart, i remove the ram and clean and grease....) or just plain failure due to use and ICD has provided lackluster support. SO kindly get off your high horse. I posted my experience and was basically called stupid. I'm terribly sorry i didnt' conform to the mass hype around the BKO.

Again, my experience with ICD was horrific. Smart parts has treated me and a lot of my friends properly. (the shocker unfortunately does suck a lot of the time, and when it breaks down it usually stays that way....that's why i have an impulse.) ICD's Bushmaster is a great gun, but i would rather have the impulse (which comes with the maxflow regulator) for multiple reasons. Just because i've had good experiences with them doesn't mean i'm stupid. I've heard of people having bad experiences with AGD, but those are few and far between.

I am also aware WHY the vigilante was the only reg to do that, i just find it competely STUPID that the STOCK regulator on the gun sucks, which from my experiences with my old bushmaster, didn't.

[TRIAD]

Like SHartley said, this is an AGD forum, let's be nice. For starters, DO NOT EVER compare a 68 classic to a Timmy, or other similiar-priced gun. Obviously you guys haven't checked the price tags lately. And RTP with lvl 10 will be just as good as any electro out there, and there is less to go wrong. Emags are where it's at. New, with level 10, they're about 950, which is still less than some of these Nasty/Adrenaline Impulses, Angels, etc. It's the best bang for the buck IMO, and they work great, and have a very nice trigger design.

[Ov3rmind]

I didn't realize that we were getting into the higher price range. Well, than here's what I think:
For most things under $1000, I would suggest building yourself a Mag or a Cocker. Which you choose is up to you, it's preference. Past $850 though, the Emag is a great buy, and I would suggest getting that instead of building a Mag. If you are a Cocker person, Works Cockers and lower scale Freeflows will be good choices. Again though, you could also consider building your own Cocker. Above $1000, the Emag Extreme takes the cake, hands down! I can't think of a thing it doesn't have (maybe some wrap around grips with a slightly slimmer grip frame, but that's about it). It's got everything great about the Mag, but just better :D. Angels and Vikings are the only other high end electros I'd consider to come close, but I think the Extreme still has them beat.

[Automaggin2]

honestly, i think you are pulling things from your behind, becasue i have never once seen a group of friends who all magically had very defective guns and had horrible customer care. Its kinda ironic how a group of friends had bushys but they sucked or there always down. Do you think if i said ï have a bunch of friends with Angel LCDs or Extreme emags and they are always down, there customer service sucsk" will anyone belive me? most likeley no

[Automaggin2]

Originally posted by Automaggin2
honestly, i think you are pulling things from your behind, becasue i have never once seen a group of friends who all magically had very defective guns and had horrible customer care. Its kinda ironic how a group of friends had bushys but they all sucked or there always down. Do you think if i said ï have a bunch of friends with Angel LCDs or Extreme emags and they are always down, there customer service sucsk" will anyone belive me? most likeley no

[orderofreason]

I'm really glad to see that the conversation has taken a turn for the best. You're right, i've never owned a bushmaster. I'm lying thru my teeth. I just have this complete hate-on for ICD even though i've never used their guns. My friend doens't own a black to grey fade defiant with the stupid jnj barrel and the little wee insert. My teammates don't own silver bushmasters as backups (they're 450 canadian up here).

Can you really put this into perspective? Why would i suddenly decide that I would bash ICD? I think you're just irritated about the fact that used a conquest and your holier than thou argument failed. Tell you what automaggin, i'll take a digital photo of the guns, and have all the receipts for the technical work as well. But then, you'd accuse me of being some sort of god with photoshop.

Here's the deal. ICD service FOR ME and most people that i know with ICD guns is terrible. I have heard a million bad things about Smart Parts, but i've never been on the receiving end. SO kindly get off your high horse and stop making juvenile comments like "a magical group of friends" because it's pretty pathetic to have to resort to comments like that once you've had all of your arguments squashed. :D

[orderofreason]

By the way, find out who the head tech at ICD is, his name is Adam. In addition, Jerry Dobbins wasn't there at the booth which was located right around the corner from the AGD booth at the IAO.

As for the crack about angels and mags two things

If your mag is broken and you can't fix it, you're more than likely completely stupid. If it's the other 10% of the time that the guns go down (whenever that is) call AGD and they're going to hook you up. I dont' own ANY Agd gun by the way.

WDP? yeah, they've got great service, if you've got an LCD. Or you could be nice and unlucky like me, buy a 2000 SE LED angel (and yes, they were made then...) brand new and have no lifetime warranty at skyball because "your gun isn't an LCD." THey did work on it for 25 bucks and did an overhaul, but i find it kinda stupid that lifetime warranties aren't. Customer service is the big thing for me, i bought a GZ intimidator and afterwards realized that there are no techs anywhere even close to me. Luckily, Mike Carrey from Bob's Iron Men is also in Canada and does a lot of timmy work.