another mag vs cocker question

[petefol]

my friend says that the reason he likes cockers more then mags is because of the better range (NOT accuracy) a cocker has. i know that warpig proved that the cocker isn't more accurate then other guns because it is a closed bolt gun. so what about range? it seems like a false claim to me.

[yeahthatsme]

ok heres how i will prove this wrong.

velocity=force
distance= force of push behind ball ( it gets more complicated but i'm trying to be simple)

so with the same velocity you get the same distance. there ya go.

[lala]

No.. no... you have it all wrong I think alot of people will back me up on this, THE COCKER SOOTS FURTHER becouse there Elves are stronger, smarter, better looking, can hog a luggy further.......:D

[cphilip]

You mean hock a luggie?

:rolleyes:

[lala]

I thought I spelled that wrong. :D :D

[halB]

you cant violate physics. the only waya cocker could shoot farther would be if it was a flatline cocker. and then, youd have one ugly lil gun on your hands.

[petefol]

yeah i forgot about the velocity thing... maybe he meant accuracy

[TRIAD]

either way he's an uninformed moron.

[FishHook]

don't belive all that physics junk, everyoen knows that range is derived from the length of name.

automag - 7 letters
autococker - 10 letters

scince 10>7, autocockers have more range

[shartley]

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=479052

[DaosBeoulve]

Originally posted by shartley
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=479052

:p

[Nobody077]

It's the Elfs its gota be, When is AGD going to offer Elfs? or does E-MAG realy stand for Elf-Mag ???????:D

[*ArKfEaR*]

tell your friend hes right.

and here is the reason why - http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49271

old stuff.

Probably going to start another war, in which im not going to reply once to this thread after my reply just to avoid a rucus.

[*ArKfEaR*]

:D

Mickey Mouse wants to same something guys...

[Paintchucker]

If you want to argue theory, then things like paint to barrel match and consistency of the fps between the guns all come into play. Considering that we are talking thousands of an inch and +/- 2-3 fps, I think it is all relative. You will probably have variances in one group of 100 to the next in the same case of paintballs using the same gun.

In the end, the gun don't make the player and strategy, cover, speed, stamina, and teamwork win the game. Hence my quote in my signature...

[shartley]

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*
tell your friend hes right.

and here is the reason why - http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49271

old stuff.

Probably going to start another war, in which im not going to reply once to this thread after my reply just to avoid a rucus.
Why do you even bother? Your "theories" about open VS closed bolt were proved WRONG. And tests proved that there is no difference between the two... only the way it cycles in the firing process is changed, not the accuracy or consistency. :rolleyes:

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

yea these dumb people at the store tried to sell my step dad a cocker claiming it shot futher and was more accuarate... then when i try to step in and start talking about physics the guy still defys me! what a arsehole

[TRIAD]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52833


Ark, you have proved nothing to any of us, except your ignorance, which seems to be in abundance. Stand down and try to learn, and MAYBE you won't sound so ignorant.


As shown in the above link, you keep posting a link to a "debate" which you have proved nothing with. I want to know why you think you were right when you just stood your ground with zero information and 100% ignorance?

[magman007]

HAHAHAHAHA Ark are you stupid or just retarded?

Ok this is incredibly hillarious, as ark posted in that with that link he owned us, well, check the 2nd page, that was the picture i used when we owned him in the debate, jeez ark, atleast yiou could have used a different thread, or atleast noit stolen the picture used against you in that thread to make your self look stuipider.

THank you for makiung my rainy day worth the wile!

Dang, that is 2 threads IM ON A ROLL!!!:D :D :D


Edit, miscue, may i borrow your picture to describe ark? thanx!!! http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=447471

[RamboPreacher]

okay, okay, I normaly wouldn't post in a thread like this because it serves no purpose, it'e like debating creation vs. evolution on a religion/philosophy forum - arghghg...

here's my stance: Everyone is right and wrong and for various reasons! (insert wild grin here).

effective accuracy and effective range (EAER), is what I coined several years ago when talking about these issues. open bolt, closed bolt, no bolt - it isn't mattering.

"why does his cocker shoot farther than my mag(or whatever)?" - there are various reasons. velocity is the main variable here. there is no way to (current technology) ensure that every given paintball will shoot at a specific velocity, whether that's 285 fps or 300 fps. consistancy is then a key factor in the velocity issue.

consistancy is mainly in the propellant source. so an HPA system is better, then right? not necessarily. you have to compare apples to apples. HPA systems all have at least one regulator, and then is connected to a gun with a possible second or even third regulator. if you reg-up co2 that extent, you will find that the differences in consistancy (barring any liquid contact) are actually pretty minimal.

paint-barrel match, and valve-barrel matching (dep[ending on who you ask) is then another factor of effective accuracy this time. assuming velocity is a constant, the travel of the ball in the barrel is going to only affect it's accuracy and trajectory. it may also affect efficiency, but that is another issue, since many of these variable also affect efficiency.

then we find at least one other factor in the EAER issue - how well built the marker is, itself. if it has loos tolorances or has been used enough to loosen tolorances, it adds a degree of variable to teh consistancy for velocity (range) as well as adding variable to the accuracy measurement.

then we have the field tests. assuming that velocity is as constant as possible, and given comparable markers and their internal tolorances - yes, one marker can still "outshoot" another. there are just too many factors involved. It is up to the player to evaluate the "cost" of ensuring that all the factors have the least impact on the performance as possible.

Finally - it is my personal opinion, that (ceteris paribus) the main variable on a given marker's EAER is the players comfort level with that marker. EAER is not really something that can be measured. I do know that the player that lives, breathes, sleeps, and knows it backwards and forwards - with his tippman, will more than likely shoot it with greater EAER than the player that just got a new JAE. (or vice versa).

[shartley]

Originally posted by RamboPreacher
okay, okay, I normaly wouldn't post in a thread like this because it serves no purpose, it'e like debating creation vs. evolution on a religion/philosophy forum - arghghg...

here's my stance: Everyone is right and wrong and for various reasons! (insert wild grin here).

effective accuracy and effective range (EAER), is what I coined several years ago when talking about these issues. open bolt, closed bolt, no bolt - it isn't mattering.

"why does his cocker shoot farther than my mag(or whatever)?" - there are various reasons. velocity is the main variable here. there is no way to (current technology) ensure that every given paintball will shoot at a specific velocity, whether that's 285 fps or 300 fps. consistancy is then a key factor in the velocity issue.

consistancy is mainly in the propellant source. so an HPA system is better, then right? not necessarily. you have to compare apples to apples. HPA systems all have at least one regulator, and then is connected to a gun with a possible second or even third regulator. if you reg-up co2 that extent, you will find that the differences in consistancy (barring any liquid contact) are actually pretty minimal.

paint-barrel match, and valve-barrel matching (dep[ending on who you ask) is then another factor of effective accuracy this time. assuming velocity is a constant, the travel of the ball in the barrel is going to only affect it's accuracy and trajectory. it may also affect efficiency, but that is another issue, since many of these variable also affect efficiency.

then we find at least one other factor in the EAER issue - how well built the marker is, itself. if it has loos tolorances or has been used enough to loosen tolorances, it adds a degree of variable to teh consistancy for velocity (range) as well as adding variable to the accuracy measurement.

then we have the field tests. assuming that velocity is as constant as possible, and given comparable markers and their internal tolorances - yes, one marker can still "outshoot" another. there are just too many factors involved. It is up to the player to evaluate the "cost" of ensuring that all the factors have the least impact on the performance as possible.

Finally - it is my personal opinion, that (ceteris paribus) the main variable on a given marker's EAER is the players comfort level with that marker. EAER is not really something that can be measured. I do know that the player that lives, breathes, sleeps, and knows it backwards and forwards - with his tippman, will more than likely shoot it with greater EAER than the player that just got a new JAE. (or vice versa).
LOL Thank you for all that RP. But now I just HAVE to tell you….. you said nothing new to AO. ;) Everything you said has been discussed time and again, and most of us agree with it. Way too many variable in ANY given “system” of paintball marker to compare them head to head. ;) :D

Just didn’t want you to think that AO was filled with idiots who have not “seen the light”… most of us have… and help spread it as well. ;)

[RamboPreacher]

sorry, still noobee here. (after visiting so many forums, I find that I have to assume the worst, until proven otherwise. :) )

[shartley]

I fully understand. TRUST me. ;) As folks will tell you, AO is not like most other Paintball Forums. THANK GOD! :D

It is good to have another knowledgeable person here though… we can’t get enough. That is why AO is THE place to come for accurate information… welcome aboard and good to have you with us. :)

[Miscue]

If one gun has more range than another in a horizontal direction, then it should also have more range going in the vertical direction... just a matter of which way you point your gun. Correct? Say 'yes'... I know you can do it. (Reason why removing the horizontal is to simplify the physics for ya'll... same principles... less vectors to play with)

Let's say you shot a ball straight up in the air at 300fps. Can we all agree that this ball is at 300fps? Ok... 300fps now... right? Can you remember 300fps? 300fps... don't forget. 300fps, 300fps, 300fps. Everyone seems to ignore this 300fps thing when talking about range.

Classical physics denotes that in one-dimensional kinematics (which is the case when you shoot something perpendicular to the ground):

Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2

Now, the Maximum height is when the ball is shot up in the air and reaches 0 velocity... the point in which it is about to fall.

Time to reach maximum height = (Initial Velocity - 0 Velocity)/Accel. Gravity

Ok... let's plug some numbers in.

What do you think the Initial Velocity is? 300fps!!! Oh... you're so fast! Accel of gravity is approx 32 ft/sec^2.

Ok... solve for time first:
Time = (<B>300</B> - 0) / 32 = 9.375 sec

Solve for Max Height:

Distance = 300ft/sec x 9.375s - (1/2)32ft/sec/sec * 9.375^2
Distance = 1406.25 ft.

Note... that there is no equation:

Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2 + PFM

Where PFM = the "Pure Magic" cocker constant. There's isn't a place in the equation to add or subtract distance in case you were using a cocker, mag, angel, sling shot, or high speed upchuck.

This equation applies to cannon balls, elephants, cocker spaniels, and bikini models... shot out of open-bolt markers, closed-bolt markers, rifles, cannons, catapults, ballistas... or even lifted up into the air via an explosive device.

Ok, so you want to be a stickler. "Ooh! Oooh! What about this buzzword 'drag' ? Huh? Huh!?!? That's all theoretical! Ooh! Look at the BIG techy word I just used! Theoretical! That doesn't apply in the REAL world"

I could calculate drag for you, but would require a lot more work and differential equations that you wouldn't understand anyway. Basically... most lack the necessary tool box to begin to understand such 'real world' computations. And besides, if you're using same projectile at same velocity... the effect of drag is identical anyway... so everything is equal... so what one projectile loses in drag... the other does as well. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/falling.html

Look at this for a while, and if you understand it then maybe I'll give you some 'REAL' world calculations... which would be a waste of time because the fundamentals are the same... and the math would just end up saying the same thing: Two cows shot in the air by a cow sized cocker, or a cow sized mag, or an ACME Cow Chucker... will travel the same distance and hit the ground just as hard. Doesn't matter if it's a moo cow, dairy cow, or even a horse or English teacher with same mass and surface area...

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~physedu/mapletutorial/tutorials/diff_eqs/

Bottom line is: Once the ball has left the gun... that ball is on it's own. However it was propelled... paintgun, spitwad straw, cocker, mag, outta your butt... whatever... it doesn't matter.

It's initially traveling at <B>300fps</B>... end of story.

<IMG SRC="http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=447471">

[shartley]

.

[Sinnet]

Originally posted by cphilip
You mean hock a luggie?

:rolleyes:


luggie? I thought it was a loogie? :confused:

[dansim]

;)

[Mossman]

Originally posted by dansim
;)

I love you dansim

[TRIAD]

What thread?
WHERE?
WHAT HAPPENED?

[RamboPreacher]

thread? was sombody sewing?

Paintball is FUN!!!

[dansim]

i know thank you mossman!
yub
yub
yub
yub
yub
yub
yub
yub
:D

[shartley]

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=479052

[big E kingpin]

i like pie

[Mossman]

BEST

THREAD




EVAR!

[j.t.]

Miscue ownes all :p :D

[personman]

um

[riooso]

Boy you started a war! I started shooting a cocker and found that a stanard MAG with a standard twist lock barrel is not as accurate as a screw in cocker barrel. I honestly think that here is movement in the barrel, don't know. I have shot well over 50 cases of balls through a cocker and 50 with a standard Mag. Well that all changed with the new Extreme. I have shot about 10 cases though it and it is just as accurate as any cocker that I have shot.

R

[Miscue]

The barrel wobble doesn't make any difference. But if you want to remove barrel wobble, putting scotch tape/shim under barrel o-ring fixes it.

Better 'perceived' accuracy is what you found... or something wasn't working right.

[petefol]

eh.... guess i shouldnt have thought a little harder before i made this thread.

[TRIAD]

no, ark ruins EVERY thread he posts in by saying 'cockers are more accurate than 'mags, so it's not your fault.