No Warped Sportz or Angel heaven at World Cup

[JEDI]

It seems due to certain PSP rules,(and what they consider inappropriate) these two companies which usually have great booths and other "Non-paintball" related stuff wont be there. There might be some representation, but not the usual spectacle they provide. Ed poorman who owns Warped Sportz is also part of PSP, so this could prove to be interesting. I think its a shame. Here's the link, read for your self
http://mortonwebdesign.com/DarkVansPR.htm

[oneshot]

I was looking forward to heaven :(

[ogre55]

Isn't this how many earlier paintball "organizations" went from being the vangaurd of the sport to being a distant memory.

I have no idea what happened at Campaign Cup and frankly I don't care. If no one was arrested and no one complained (and I have not heard of either) than where is the problem.

Businesses know what they can do and can't do in public.

But what do I know. I'm just one guy, and PSP is a huge organization. They should know what is best, for EVERYONE.

Ok. Let's see what happens next year, when other vendors want to to engage in such unheard of practices as using pretty women to sell product, and are told by PSP that they can't. At this point most vendors probably have commitments to appear at World Cup, and simply can't afford not to. But what happens at the next PSP event when no vendors show up?

Ogre

[Thordic]

I for one am interested in what happened at the Campaign Cup. Simon? Any other Europeans?

Anyway, I can understand both sides of the arguement.

For one, paintballers like to party. The demographic is there for some amazing partying, and allows for some pretty... interesting things (like midgets and cage dancers!!!! woo hoo! ;) )

On the other hand, things can easily get out of control. Anyone who was at IAO on that saturday knows exactly what I mean. I had to babysit for two paintballers who were not quite in full possession of their wits, only one of which being of the legal age to lose his mind :)

Does it bother me if a 16 year old gets drunk? Personally, no, not really. Kids are going to drink. Hopefully they don't go overboard, and they better stay the hell away from cars. BUT, I mind when it happens in public, especially at a paintball event.

I think that had paintballers been better at policing their own (and I myself am guilty of failing to do so), we wouldn't have rules such as this imposed on us. But due to the fact we are more or less out-of-control, the sponsors needed to impose rules.

Would I like to see paintballers given a second chance? Sure. I don't see a problem with alcohol being served at paintball events (to spectators, not to players) so long as its to people of age to drink. I don't have a problem with lewd behavior, as long as it stays in controlled areas and is at least close to legal :)

But I think if we got a second chance, we'd just blow it again. As a whole, "professional" paintball isn't very professional :)

[JEDI]

Thordic, on a whole I agree. I dont think pro paintball needs to come off as straight edged or decent from event to event. There's the whole Image thing, but a little Lewdness should be acceptable. Not just for the sake of being so, but because the community accepts it. Whats the big deal? I dont think anything I've seen yet at major events has been over board any way.

[Thordic]

At IAO two years ago, there was a wet-tshirt contest that turned into a mass striptease. Not sure what company that was...

This year at IAO the police were called because of companies giving alcohol to minors well past the point of intoxication.

While I really don't have a problem with these in general, it does look REALLY bad to any families wandering around.

I don't see the problem with Angel Heaven as its a VIP area thats roped off and pretty much only accessable to paintballers.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Thordic
As a whole, "professional" paintball isn't very professional :)

That has been my observation also. It appears to have actually gone down hill since the early '90s. I would have expected it to be better, not worse. :(

BTW, What is "Angel Heaven"?

[straightshot]

Well Jedi, I guess now you won't be able to replace your E-mag with that Dark Angel you wanted. :D

[synreal]

Originally posted by hitech
BTW, What is "Angel Heaven"?

WDP's Angel owners only lounge/beer tent

[JEDI]

That's just wrong. I guess I'll just have to get an Extreme... no wait, that's not possible either

[Thordic]

Angel Heaven is a fenced-off area with free beer, music, women, couches, etc. If you have an angel, or good connections <G>, you get a medallion that grants you access.

[cphilip]

I have to respect PSP's decision to get ahold of this issue and regulate it. It does sound like to me that up until now vendors could plan as they wish without the knowledge of the event organizers. Sounds reasonable to me to want to control that.

Unfortunately the comment from WS was "what just show up and sell our products?" (close to that0 and I am thinking well...ummm...WHY NOT? If thats all you can do then why act like spoiled children about it. And who says its anywhere in the rules you gotta sell em? Heck you feel so generous that you want to give back then show up and GIVE BACK. No one stopping you from that.

And then later he misconstrues the comment as if they were saying they didn't believe they were planning a concert. I didn't read it that way. I read it as they didn't tell PSP anything about what they had planned. And thus the reason for the rules!!! Its not your house you cannot plan a party in it without asking the owner! That was PSP's point. And a good one!

[shartley]

You all ready for this?

Thordic, I agree with most everything you said.

As for further comment.. not needed. It has all been discussed time and again on AO, and I tend to agree with what has been posted thus far.

My first rule for these types of things is as follows…

Answer the following two questions:

Will doing it cause harm, or potentially cause harm?
Will NOT doing it cause harm, or potentially cause harm?

The answer to those two questions are a good start……

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Its not your house you cannot plan a party in it without asking the owner!

That sums it up nicely. ;)

[synreal]

Originally posted by shartley
You all ready for this?

Thordic, I agree with most everything you said.


<b>//THUD//</b>

<font color="#666666" size="1"><b>[voices in background]</b> syn....syn?...you okay, you cracked your head pretty hard there. what did you faint, nancy? <b>[/voices in background]</b></font> ;)

[Sledgehammer]

See, <b>that</b> is really not an issue over here in Germany:

Legal drinking age (at least for beer and wine) is 16
Legal paintball playing age is 18

:D :D :D

[cphilip]

Hehehehehehehehehehe...(cough, cough) Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! :D

[ogre55]

Originally posted by hitech


That has been my observation also. It appears to have actually gone down hill since the early '90s. I would have expected it to be better, not worse. :(


Doesn't suprise me in the least. Do you think proffessional players in more established sports 50 years ago were as rowdy and "un" profossional as todays pro baseball/basketball/football players?

Ogre

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Thordic
Angel Heaven is a fenced-off area with free beer, music, women, couches, etc. If you have an angel, or good connections <G>, you get a medallion that grants you access.

Sounds like the champayne room or VIP lounge at most strip joints.

Ogre

[JEDI]

I guess its just some level of immaturity in me but I like the usual amount of craziness. Its plain fun. Lets keep it from getting out of control and all should be good. I'm just generally weary about losing privledges. Next thing you know donut orgies will be considered Dangerous!

[FistS]

Adam,
Are you guys going to WC? Dead Cell that is. I've been looking to talk to you or jeremy in person about the team and ****, but havnt seen you since AO day NJ and Jeremey is never home.

If your going to WC, bring home some nice photos!

[JEDI]

Yeah dude, we're going the 22 & 23. I'll get an S load of pictures. I'll tell jer to get in touch with you.

[Thordic]

JEDI - I agree, I had a blast at IAO.

But when things got out of control, and you have to babysit for someone rampaging through the food court, it becomes a problem :)

I wish we could have the best of both worlds where we could party and get crazy and no one would care and/or notice.

Paintball should look towards skiing. Anyone here ever go to Killington or any other big ski resort?

You ski all day, not too much craziness because there are families and kids around.

After the day is over though, you take your shower, get dressed, and head out for apres' ski. Apres' ski is half the fun of going to big ski resorts :)

We just need to start the Apres' Paintball movement.

Syndicate threw a party at IAO, but it was LAME. We need to get WOMEN to the afterparties!!!! :)

[halB]

Paintball is growing. More families with small children are attending our events. Companies, such as Disney, are beginning to view paintball in a serious and favorable light. We are subject to greater scrutiny by applicable governmental agencies. We have to act, as an industry, in a manner that takes the foregoing into account and does not jeopardize our tournaments, our sport or the growth of our industry

answer me, honestly. do you WANT paintball to be like this?? to be some stuck up organization thats disneys "lady"? do we really wanna have donald duck playing paintball, or some 40 year old soccer mom playing tourneys? NO. paintball is an EXTREME sport. if the founders of paintball were dead, theyd be rolling over in their graves right now. what good is it if the sport grows to rapid new heights, but only as some stuck up organization where we observe tea time and shoot our markers with our pinkies sticking out? i want midgets, and i want strippers at my events. and if some 40 year old mom sees that and doesnt like it, well welcome to the 21st century lady. we aint a bunch of puritans anymore, and we sure as hell arent fundamentalist muslims. this is america. we like our language rough, our beverages alcoholic, and our women naked. think thats bad, then you dont know our founding fathers. ben franklin got it on with more ladies over in france than you can shake a stick at, and he was 70! patrick henry slept with a barrel of wine next to his bed. so why the hell are we backpedalling and sending this grand, relatively new sport back to the middle ages?

[shartley]

Originally posted by JEDI
I guess its just some level of immaturity in me but I like the usual amount of craziness. Its plain fun. Lets keep it from getting out of control and all should be good. I'm just generally weary about losing privledges. Next thing you know donut orgies will be considered Dangerous!
Not allowing the things they are trying to avoid (and have happened time and again at major events) is not “losing” any privilege. And it in no way equates to potentially losing the ability to have doughnut orgies.

Using the argument that acceptable things will be taken away because non-acceptable things are being prevented (and ONLY because it has been proven that they get out of hand) is not quite an accurate argument. I find it funny how the “slippery slope” argument gets used so often by those who want to DO things, but they are the same ones who argue so feverishly against those who say the same in reverse. ;) But the simple truth is that by ALLOWING things to be as they have been, the slope got darn slippery… thus this latest decision. ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by halB


answer me, honestly. do you WANT paintball to be like this?? to be some stuck up organization thats disneys "lady"? do we really wanna have donald duck playing paintball, or some 40 year old soccer mom playing tourneys? NO. paintball is an EXTREME sport. if the founders of paintball were dead, theyd be rolling over in their graves right now. what good is it if the sport grows to rapid new heights, but only as some stuck up organization where we observe tea time and shoot our markers with our pinkies sticking out? i want midgets, and i want strippers at my events. and if some 40 year old mom sees that and doesnt like it, well welcome to the 21st century lady. we aint a bunch of puritans anymore, and we sure as hell arent fundamentalist muslims. this is america. we like our language rough, our beverages alcoholic, and our women naked. think thats bad, then you dont know our founding fathers. ben franklin got it on with more ladies over in france than you can shake a stick at, and he was 70! patrick henry slept with a barrel of wine next to his bed. so why the hell are we backpedalling and sending this grand, relatively new sport back to the middle ages?
Okay, so you are saying that people who are not in their teens can not play at the same level? And do you think Tournaments are the ONLY thing paintball is about? And although my Wife fits the description of that 40 year old Soccer Mom, do you honestly think she even WANTS to play in a Tournament?

I could go on and slice and dice, but I think you missed the total idea that was trying to be made.

And I want to know where you get the gall of saying what “We Americans” like. How old are you? I found your post not only ignorant, but offensive. It also goes to the heart of the problem being discussed (and you forget that AO has Women posters, or you simply don’t care)…… so I will not FLAME you, but thank you for making the post. You gave a wonderful example why the decision is what it is….

[Thordic]

Originally posted by halB
this is america. we like our language rough, our beverages alcoholic, and our women naked.

I dunno why, but I love that quote :)


Originally posted by Shartley
And do you think Tournaments are the ONLY thing paintball is about? And although my Wife fits the description of that 40 year old Soccer Mom, do you honestly think she even WANTS to play in a Tournament?

PSP doesn't effect recball, though. The "wild" stuff is localized to tournaments. So his arguement still does hold some water, even though I don't totally agree with it.

If we could totally seperate paintball, it would be a valid arguement. But the fact is recball and touney ball are linked. What happens at tournaments reflects on recball, and vice versa.

I don't want tournaments turning into the Martha Stewart show, if I could plan a tournament with a full range of entertainment, I'd probably end up in jail, but the fact is "tournament paintballers" aren't the only people at "tournament paintball" events. If they were this would be a much simpler situation :)

[ogre55]

Halb:

On the one hand I want to agree with you. I really do and you can check my earlier post in this thread to prove it.

On the other hand, the way you describe it, you want paintball to turn into the World Wresting Federation (Entertainment?). Why does everything have to go to extremes. I don't agree with PSPs decision but that is because I think that their rules of "no lewd or lascivious conduct" are overbroad and, in the long run, counterproductive.

Here's a hint to anyone who wants to compete with PSP. Hold big time events and forego the "no lewd or lascivious conduct" rule. Given the choice which event do you thing vendors and bystanders would rather go to. Well it's not going to be the one being held by the tea tottlers.

But we also have to watch out. I am not the first one to say this, and I won't be the last, we are not just any other extreme sport. Off all of them, we are the only ones where the basic equipment involves a "gun". We will always be held to a higher level of scrutiny. In the professional arena, where there is best chance of media exposure, we should be mindful of our Ps and Qs, at least to a point.

I see no problem with serving booze to consenting adults, but when, as Thordic related the incident, some dumb kid starts getting drunk and rowdy in a public area, we have to all take a step back and think about what is going on. Most proffessional sports venues serve alcahol, but they also make sure not to serve it to minors. Paintball events should be no different. Again, PSP went overboard by banning it completely. I say if you want to serve alcahol at your booth, go through the proper channels of the municipalty for wherever the event you are attending is being held, and get a liquor license. This takes some pressure off PSP and forces vendors to take responsibility for thier actions.

PSP is overreacting to the events at Campaign Cup and IAO. They are using a bazooka to swat a fly and the result will probably be that they will blow themselves up in the process.

Ogre

[shartley]

Originally posted by Thordic
PSP doesn't effect recball, though. The "wild" stuff is localized to tournaments. So his arguement still does hold some water, even though I don't totally agree with it.

If we could totally seperate paintball, it would be a valid arguement. But the fact is recball and touney ball are linked. What happens at tournaments reflects on recball, and vice versa.

I don't want tournaments turning into the Martha Stewart show, if I could plan a tournament with a full range of entertainment, I'd probably end up in jail, but the fact is "tournament paintballers" aren't the only people at "tournament paintball" events. If they were this would be a much simpler situation :)
And again I have to agree with most of what you said. (Damn it.. STOP! ;))

But because things are so linked there should be a happy medium. And I feel you were heading in the right direction when you brought up Skiing. And you know what? It could be done quite easily. And if these companies that want to get “wild” want to do an event outside the main venue and after hours… ahhhhh. You have the best of both worlds.

I think the problem comes in when “time and place” is ignored, and I don’t think you need to have it all (or should have) at one time and one place. And the Skiing community is a good example (but maybe racing would be better?) where you spend the day one place doing an event or activity, and then when the sun goes down you go to another location in the same general area (community) but NOT directly affiliated with the first place and get “wild” with others who share the same interests. I am sure local Bars would WELCOME paintballers and allow their facilities to be used for “recreational” events during the same time frame as a big Paintball Event is happening. Maybe some of the paintball folks (and companies) who want these things to happen should look into this? It seems like an answer that would make everyone happy.

[Sledgehammer]

Shartley: is that a different place in the US? In Europe the usual place to get drunk when skiing are little (or bigger) huts directly on the ski slopes...

[Thordic]

In the, at least at Killington (the biggest ski resort in the eastern US) the bars are down the road from the resort a little.

At Sugarloaf, everything is located AT the resort.

Note: If you leave a keg outside in Maine overnight, it WILL freeze and you WON'T be able to get any beer out of until it thaws :) If you leave all three of your kegs on the porch overnight, you have to drive to the liquor store an hour away and buy a quarter keg to tide you over till the other three defrost.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Sledgehammer
Shartley: is that a different place in the US? In Europe the usual place to get drunk when skiing are little (or bigger) huts directly on the ski slopes...
Yes and no. Europe is a bit different than the US.. and I can say this from personal experience. When skiing you can generally go to lodges and stuff right on, or in close proximity of the slopes… yes. But that was not what I was talking about. And please….. when talking about a US event and planning around one, keep it to US standards, not European. “When in Rome.” ;)

Also I was not talking about getting drunk WHEN skiing, but AFTER. ;):D I was referring to AFTER a long day of skiing, and for that, I almost always dropped off my skis at the hotel and went out with the guys to do a bit of partying. And we never went back TO the slopes, but to the pubs in the community.

But like I was saying, skiing may not be the best example, but close. I hope that made better sense.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
And if these companies that want to get "wild" want to do an event outside the main venue and after hours? ahhhhh. You have the best of both worlds.


It has been done that way in the past. At one players party, AFTER the children left they had "lap" dancers (they were clothed, barely). Not all that wild, but I did get Glenn Palmer in trouble (ask him about it some day) ;).

At another players party they loaded up whom ever wanted to go and took a bus over to Mitchell Bros. in San Francisco. Hard to get much wilder than that and still be legal. The point is, even though I thought it was a bad idea at the time, it happened outside of the tournament. No one was accidentally involved. If you were involved, it was because you wanted to (maybe with the exception of Glenn ;) ).

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech
It has been done that way in the past. At one players party, AFTER the children left they had "lap" dancers (they were clothed, barely). Not all that wild, but I did get Glenn Palmer in trouble (ask him about it some day) ;).

At another players party they loaded up whom ever wanted to go and took a bus over to Mitchell Bros. in San Francisco. Hard to get much wilder than that and still be legal. The point is, even though I thought it was a bad idea at the time, it happened outside of the tournament. No one was accidentally involved. If you were involved, it was because you wanted to (maybe with the exception of Glenn ;) ).
Good points, and thank you for the post.

Yes, that was my point exactly.

[Sledgehammer]

I personally never drink any alcohol that's worth talking about when or after skiing since my wife is always skiing with me ;)

Now after playing paintball that's a different story :D

[halB]

just bout all i said was an exaggeration, however the real point of the matter is this, are we too turn into some organization like football where players are fined for every improper thing we do? are we to turn into some sport where we curtsey before our games? i think what the psp is doing is destroying what draws most people to paintball. the culture, the extremity, the sport itself.

to quote someone else

Isn't this how many earlier paintball "organizations" went from being the vangaurd of the sport to being a distant memory.

i think this just might be the case. i may not drink personally, but if you think paintball is the best sport in the world to watch from the sidelines your living in a dream world. its as boring as baseball. so shouldnt we follow what baseball does, and get our fans piss drunk??

joking guys, joking.

although i do hear xball is very nice to watch

[845]

Originally posted by halB

although i do hear xball is very nice to watch

Very

[Spaceman613]

So how many people wont be going to WC because Warped wont be there?

If I could get there, I would. I get annoyed by drunks (even tho I am one occasionally), and I get annoyed by 13 year old boys drooling over strippers.

PSP never said they couldnt have pretty girls selling guns, but they wont be too crude about it.

Heres an idea for Warped... Make products that will make customers want to visit your tent, then you wont have to pay the hookers to attract perverted men (like me).

[Rooster]

I enjoy both naked dancing women and beer as much as the next, but both in the proper venue, not where there are little kids present. The single thing that bothers me most when I'm anywhere booze is being sold is some 16 year old kid begging me to buy him a drink.

A paintball tournement is not the place for either of these things. And to the kids who think paintball is an extreme sport, its not. Just ask the 300 lb. guy playing back.

I'm not going to shed a tear for warped sports, becuase they are everything paitball shouldn't be.

[halB]

fun and exciting!

[Rooster]

last time i played paintball there were no naked women, no beer, and no rock concert. And i did have fun, and it was exciting.

[halB]

true, but naked women would sure maximize the fun! and ya gotta consider the prime demographic of paintballers, young teenage boys.

[hitech]

Originally posted by halB
true, but naked women would sure maximize the fun! and ya gotta consider the prime demographic of paintballers, young teenage boys.

Yes you do. And young teenage boys are not LEGALLY old enough.

[Spaceman613]

And those young teenage boys get their spending money from middle aged mothers and fathers usually. You have to find a happy medium.

A beautiful woman at a vendor tent is fine, a half naked woman with a barrel in her clevage is a little overboard.

If a company NEEDS these things so badly that they wont attend an event without them (temper tantrum), then they obviously have such poor products that they wont sell themselves.

[halB]

well, the problem is inappropriate isnt really defined, so who knows, maybe if they just showed up with the midgets theyd be thrown out cause they think midgets are inappropriate.

[Fred]

My take on this is pretty similar to most already stated.

I personally don't care too much for either WDP or Warped Sportz. They make nice stuff, but let your product speak for itself, it shouldn't need strippers to make it look enticing.

If they want to throw a big bash at an event, that in itself is fine, but do it at night, when the families are gone, and the underage kiddies are too. I for one had a great time hanging out after Shatnerball, and it was a great chance to get to know my fellow paintballers off the field.

Skiing is similar, yeah, I ski. I ski all day, until the last lift chair goes up the mountain, but after a shower, and dinner, you go out to the apres ski parties. They're all legal drinking age adults, in established No Kiddies zones.

---Fred

[hubadlatimmy]

stupid WDP and there marketing hype/naked chicks in bikini's.

[FistS]

This answer to this thread is simple.
Everyone will have different opinions, and thus, they will clash. Don't get heated over someone who's opinion differs from yours.

Now, about the whole no WDP or Angel Heaven, Yes, it sucks. And some valid points have been made on behalf of the decision and some vaild points have been made on behalf of thos who disagree with the decision.

I have to say this.
I am a 14 year old teenager who loves paintball. I'm still waiting to attend my first nppl event, and there, I'm hoping to see some great paintball action. With that comes the vendors, and yea, when you have half-naked women lounging around your booth, poeple will want to see whats going on. There is nothing wrong with that, but like someone said, when you have a barrel in your cleavage, thats overdoing it. Limit it to Halter tops and short shorts, thats fine. Sexy, but still covering enough.

With the whole alcohol thing, if your 21 int he United States, your old enough to legally drink. The key word: 21. Teenagers, who at events like IAO, ask for drinks, should be promtly reported and kicked out. There is no reason for someone below the legal age requirement to be drinking in public anyway. Alcohol wouldn't be that big of an issue if people were responisble enough to say "No." To young kids that asked for it.

I wish everyone who is attending World Cup a safe and enjoyable trip, to those that are comepeting, AGD Lions, manike's team, goodluck, may the emag be with you.

Signing out,
Dead Cell's *****.
-FistS

P.S - Bring back a s load of pictures for those of us who cannot attend:)

[billmi]

Originally posted by halB

if the founders of paintball were dead, theyd be rolling over in their graves right now.

I've had the pleasure of lengthy conversations with both Bob Gurnsey and Hayes Noel (and I was blown away when I met Hayes that he not only knew me, but he asked me to sign an autograph for his son). Anyhow, can you share this bit of insight as to their views on where the game is going, because from my conversations with them I sure didn't get the impression that this was anything that would upset them, let alone make them turn in their graves once they were dead.


And some other comments....

The post starting this thread said WDP would not be having Angel Heaven.... WDP has not announced this. We'll see what they set up, but I've been in touch with them by e-mail over this last week, and they are most certainly still coming to World Cup.

I find if further interesting that all this flap is focused on PSP being against Warped Sportz, when Warped Sportz owner Ed Poorman is one of the owners of PSP.

Is it just me or wouldn't it sound funny for Tom Kaye to announce that he won't appear in the AGD booth because of the billboard AGD had at the IAO?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by ogre55
Halb:
I see no problem with serving booze to consenting adults...

Again, PSP went overboard by banning it completely. I say if you want to serve alcahol at your booth, go through the proper channels of the municipalty for wherever the event you are attending is being held, and get a liquor license...

PSP is overreacting to the events at Campaign Cup and IAO. They are using a bazooka to swat a fly and the result will probably be that they will blow themselves up in the process.

Ogre

I don't understand this at all. PSP has stated that their new insurance policy does not allow alcohol on the site. Regardless of getting liquor licenses, if they allowed alcohol on site, they would invalidate their insurance coverage.

I don't think that's any more "overreacting" than requiring goggles, or requiring players to tune their guns to under 300 fps., also requirements of their insurance program.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[straightshot]

I think only Warped Sportz isn't going. WDP should still be there. Here (http://mortonwebdesign.com/DarkVansPR.htm) are some press releases on it if anyone is interested.

I personally like WDP's setup, its something different to look at amongst the plain tables used by most vendors.

[Gijim]

Bill you just put a major stoppage to any more arguing. If you need any inside info just talk to Bill he's the man.It cracks me up that some people think the "founders" are dead when paintball isn't even 20 years old:) Anyway, have fun to those that go,it is all about paintball and nothing else.

[Pand0ra]

Originally posted by Thordic
I for one am interested in what happened at the Campaign Cup. Simon? Any other Europeans?

...
At IAO two years ago, there was a wet-tshirt contest that turned into a mass striptease. Not sure what company that was...


WDP went two steps over the striptease, with two girls, if you see what I mean. And that was just a small part of the show, which, let's say, was xxx rated.

This time the show went too far :(.

@++

[P4ULuk]

Lets just say some angel barrels got a lil bit lubricated from what I've heard :eek: :D :D :D

Paul.

[Thordic]

Ahh, I think I actually did hear rumors about that.

Sorry I missed it! :)

[JEDI]

You, me and HalB are gonna get together and party like rock stars. We're gonna have naked women covered In Evil paint handing out pints of beer. The midgets can take care of the prezzels, and Shartley can watch the door. I've stated my opinion already, so I don't need to be redundant, but I find myself agreeing with you two more and more in every thread. By the way HalB, check out my sig.

[Thordic]

You missed Shatnerball, JEDI. Black Cell trashed our hotel room :)

We had a good time at the bars too :)

[Dayspring]

I am SOOO visiting you guys' room in South Carolina :D


Originally posted by Thordic
You missed Shatnerball, JEDI. Black Cell trashed our hotel room :)

We had a good time at the bars too :)

[Thordic]

Nooo, we gotta trash someone elses room this time. We got lucky in Chicago and didn't get any damage charges.

Who wants to volunteer their room?

Why don't we go to Phil's house? :)

[Dayspring]

I vote WC Keep & Kaiser Bob's :D

[billmi]

And a note on room trashing....

In the NPPL rules, trashing a hotel room is an offense resulting in a 1 year suspension from the league.

That's not PSP getting strict, it's a rule placed by the player representatives on the league rules committee.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[shartley]

Originally posted by billmi
And a note on room trashing....

In the NPPL rules, trashing a hotel room is an offense resulting in a 1 year suspension from the league.

That's not PSP getting strict, it's a rule placed by the player representatives on the league rules committee.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills
Good rule…..

[JEDI]

Party poopers

[Thordic]

It was a scenario game, we're still safe :)

And at least they can't suspend you from trashing hotel rooms! That would just suck. That was like my second career for a few years. :)

[JEDI]

Shatner- Damn it! Jim... They've.. trashed the...hotel room!
Scotty- I'm giving it all she's got captain!

[GT]

Should we really be selling alcohol at an athletic event? Maybe I should re word this what age group does paintball primarily target (Tom or any AGD marketing folks please inset comment here). I am going to take a wild guess and say 16-24, of which most of these people should not be drinking for legal reasons. How would you guys like it if your son or daughter were headed to one of this trips and ended up being killed by a drunk driver? I guess an additional issue is what kind of liability would the promoters be involved in if some kind of incident were to take place. Would it be possible for AGD, WDP, or WORR to become a platinum sponsor for a large event and in turn found liable for some alcohol related accident?
Can we have alcohol at our events? Yes we can. Should we? Well that is up to you to decide.
What about private members only areas like Heaven? Personally I don’t see any problem with it as long as it stays in that area and all the local laws are followed concerning minors. In fact it might be kinda cool to have an AO section only.

[Thordic]

Every major sport has alcohol for sale to the spectators. Sorry, but that arguement doesn't hold water.

Also, I'd change that age bracket. A signfigant portion of paintballers, especially at the upper tournament level, are of the legal age to drink.

Note: When I went to IAO, I didn't expect any alcohol to be served. I was surprised when it was. I think there's nothing wrong with it as long as it's controlled.

[JEDI]

Alcohol is sold at nearly every American sporting event. What if your son or daughter was on the way to a paintball event and fell in an open man hole. (does that make any sense?--no). Moderation is the key. Besides, we've moved away from the main issue. Who cares about the beer.(me) I don't like the fact that some things are being labeled lewd or unacceptable. DAMN THORDIC YOU TYPE TOO FAST.

[JEDI]

I guess I'm not the only one that leaves threads open ALL day, and just hits refresh.:rolleyes:

[ogre55]

Originally posted by billmi


I don't understand this at all. PSP has stated that their new insurance policy does not allow alcohol on the site. Regardless of getting liquor licenses, if they allowed alcohol on site, they would invalidate their insurance coverage.


I was not aware of this when I posted. Thanks for the clarification Bill.


Originally posted by billmi
I don't think that's any more "overreacting" than requiring goggles, or requiring players to tune their guns to under 300 fps., also requirements of their insurance program.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

I still think that PSP is overreacting by banning what they term as "lewd and lascivious" conduct. One man's lewd is another man's entertainment. Sure it's their event and they can go whatever they want with it, but their method seems a bit heavy handed. Why don't they just make it a policy that if a vendor wants to do something a little more risque, that they have to run it by PSP first and it has to be subject to PSP's approval.

This would potentially solve many problems.

Ogre

[halB]

im not familiar with the psp, but i know the nppl is run by a board of directors thats had an extremely dodgy past, and is marred by constant contreversy. i also think in the nppl no normal player can join, its an elitest organization. i dont know bout the psp, but im guessing no normal player can up and join it. so why dont we just form our own damn organization, have that host the tournies, and let the PLAYERS decide whats best for the sport, not a bunch of people who stand to make money from everything.

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by Rooster
I'm not going to shed a tear for warped sports, becuase they are everything paitball shouldn't be.

I resent this comment just a tad... since WS is one of the few companies that attempted to market paintball outside of the comfy niche it has grown into. Yah you see Dye all over the magazines... but all that money they spend on niche marketing doesn't allow them much branch funding. Very few make the move to bring new markets into Paintball. Palmer doesn't ever participate in tournament politics, yet for some reason no one claims he's a bigot and a fool.

Ed Poorman IS on the PSP board if you read that last link... this isn't a league dispute, this isn't a vendor boycotting the NPPL... this isn't anything anyone claimed it to be on this board.

This is Ed Poorman wanting tattoos and alcohol on his booth... Now everyone has opinions on these. Maybe it's a good idea, maybe it isn't to have either of these.

BUT HE WANTED MIDGETS! Come on guys, Midgets are freakin awesome! But PSP was worried. Maybe it was premature judgement, maybe Ed didn't want to go through the planning phases all over again, but he's not coming.

So claim Warped is everything paintball shouldn't be. What exactly are you saying?

That alcohol in tournaments, the way it's been since I can remember, isn't the way paintball should be. Ok I'll turn a blind eye to our history and go your path.

Tattoos shouldn't be condoned. Honestly I don't care... but someone better tell Robbo. And about half the TWiBs that pay the NPPL salaries who think they're Junior BA's and a tat will help them along.

Girlies don't belong... Okie dokie. Just... get rid of the Smart Parts catalogs and posters, get rid of Bon Bon shouldn't pose for JT or even answer the phones for fear that the store guy ordering might get a stiffy.

And midgets... well... Midgets are freakin COOL MAN! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???

In the end, do I agree with Ed? No. I think it was a poor move. :) hehe.... sorry couldn't help it. But do I want to Demonize him for it (did it again)? Hardly. It's a decision he has to make, whether he will sell product at the Cup. He probably would have sold just as much, midgets or not. But this is his statement about life. Let him live with it, good or bad.

[billmi]

Some thoughts to some of the general reactions....

PSP never said tatoos, midgets, or girls in the booths were unacceptable.

PSP never said anything Warped Sportz was planning was lewd.

PSP announced a limitation they now face due to their insurance provider (no alcohol on site) and said that lewd behavior would not be allowed.

The Warped Sportz press release did not say they consulted with PSP to see if what they had planned was acceptable... It may well have been acceptable.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by halB
i also think in the nppl no normal player can join, its an elitest organization.

Why not? It's "normal" players that play in the NPPL tournaments. All you need to officially join the NPPL is to plunk down your $25 annual membership fee. You don't even have to actually play in a tournament to join.



i dont know bout the psp, but im guessing no normal player can up and join it.

No, they can't. PSP is a privately owned company that produces paintball tournaments. You can no more "join" the PSP than you can join Airgun Designs, General Motors, or Microsoft (you could buy part ownership, or be hired as an employee, but you don't join as you would a league).



so why dont we just form our own damn organization, have that host the tournies, and let the PLAYERS decide whats best for the sport, not a bunch of people who stand to make money from everything.

That's what a bunch of players said in the early 1990s when they were fed up with the way Jim Lively was running tournaments. So they formed a non-profit organization, called the NPPL where the players make the rules, and promoters produce the events, having to comply with those player's rules in order to be considered an "NPPL event."

You know the problem with that? Players don't care. They stopped voting in the league elections, they stopped caring at all, until the league corporation was dissolved by the state of New York for failing to pay its incorporation taxes.

Then the promoters were running tournaments and still using the league name. Last year, Chuck Hendsch formed a new corporation - one which he owns, but plans to turn over into a non-profit corp owned by the teams, like the original NPPL. The problem with that? The player's don't care. As long as they get to go to a tournament, they can't be bothered to give a rip about the league.

Sure, they will come into internet forums and whine about how PSP is taking their money and not giving them enough in return, or what they want in return. They'll tell their friends at the field how much it sucks. But will they even bother to take part in the league leadership to mandate the changes they're whining about? No.

In order for the league to become player owned and run again, the teams need to meet and vote, and select officers.

The NPPL held a meeting at the Chicago Open. Know how many team captains bothered to show up? Four. A number I asked about either said they were out drinking with their team and other teams they don't normally get to hang out with, or they were walking fields.

Out of the whole league, four team captains cared.

So the NPPL rescheduled the meeting for the Atlantic City tournament. Know how many showed up? One novice team captain.

Is the NPPL leadership "dodgy" or "shady" in respect to not representing the goals and desires of the league members. You might say that, or you might say that they're representing what they guess to be what the members want since the members can't be bothered to tell them.

So that's the answer to the question of why "we the PLAYERS" don't form an organization - "We the PLAYERS" either don't want to or are just too lazy to do it.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[shartley]

Bill……

WOW! Good post! But I am afraid you may have busted a few rather large bubbles out there. It is, after all, MUCH easier to just sit back and complain about things than to deal with them in a realistic manner… which might actually take some personal time, energy and resources/funds.

[GT]

Originally posted by JEDI
Alcohol is sold at nearly every American sporting event. What if your son or daughter was on the way to a paintball event and fell in an open man hole. (does that make any sense?--no). Moderation is the key. Besides, we've moved away from the main issue. Who cares about the beer.(me) I don't like the fact that some things are being labeled lewd or unacceptable. DAMN THORDIC YOU TYPE TOO FAST.

hmmm... I don't know any high school events that have beer at them, infact some colleges are not selling alchol at there events for the same reason LIABALITY

[billmi]

Originally posted by Thordic
Every major sport has alcohol for sale to the spectators. Sorry, but that arguement doesn't hold water.


How many major sporting events serve alcohol when they are unable to find insurance coverage for their event that permits the sale of alcohol.

And if your reply is "it must be out there," get in touch with PSP. I would not be surprised at all if they would be willing to pay you a finders fee for finding it for them, as they have faced a number of frustrations over the past few years with their present insurance provider. A policy that did not require separate insurance for golfcarts, allowed quads, and alcohol, and didn't cost so much that they'd have to further raise the entry fees would be a dream come true for them.



Also, I'd change that age bracket. A signfigant portion of paintballers, especially at the upper tournament level, are of the legal age to drink.


While that's true, it's also true that a significant number aren't. Doesn't anyone remember the flap over minors being served alcohol, that led to a vendor being asked not to return after the 1999 World Cup (Paintball Sports Inc. then producer of the event was concerned over a loss of their use permit).


Note: When I went to IAO, I didn't expect any alcohol to be served. I was surprised when it was. I think there's nothing wrong with it as long as it's controlled.

Even if it makes the event insurance invalid?
Only if you've got a bank account fat enough to cover your own losses, is that a good idea.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[hitech]

Originally posted by billmi
The Warped Sportz press release did not say they consulted with PSP to see if what they had planned was acceptable... It may well have been acceptable.


That is the bottom line. All they had to do was ask "what if". But I doubt they bothered. While the rest of the discussion has been very interesting (thanks Bill for from very enlightening facts), it really has little to do with the original issue.

[*ArKfEaR*]

damn that sounded mad cool, i dont just wanna go to the world cup and see just paintball products. I want it to be interesteding, wtf are they stupid? WTF is the legal drinking age for? Umm no alcohol..umm gj there guys. As well as LEWD behavior, ummm again wtf? LEWD usually means cool. Wow im pissed, i was actually thinking of going this year, no angel heaven. Im not goin..

[shartley]

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*
damn that sounded mad cool, i dont just wanna go to the world cup and see just paintball products. I want it to be interesteding, wtf are they stupid? WTF is the legal drinking age for? Umm no alcohol..umm gj there guys. As well as LEWD behavior, ummm again wtf? LEWD usually means cool. Wow im pissed, i was actually thinking of going this year, no angel heaven. Im not goin..

I was going to post a response to this, but will use my better judgment and not......

[manike]

I was going to get into this but I think I'll leave it a lot of it to those already involved.

I will state that I do know what WDP did at Campaign (I was there) and I do not believe it was illegal (in this country anyway) one of the guys from WDP did say they knew a little more about what they could get away with in their own country. I don't know if it would be illegal or not under the same circumstances in the USA.

It was done in a private tent at invite only and was not on open display to anyone and everyone (although many tried to get in).

I feel the alchohol ban to be a shame, it's great to relax at the end of an event over a cold one with friends, but I won't have too much of a problem waiting until we get away from site. I do think it might be a step done to curb some of the drunk driving of golf carts which became dangerous last year and if that is a case they are penalising many for the few idiots they should actually be impacting on.

manike

[Thordic]

Ahh, I almost forgot about the drunk golf cart driving at IAO. I only saw one instance of it, but I was only there a few days. They somehow managed to go around the fairgrounds and get back without any trouble, but it definitely isn't safe.

This was an of-age person, who I know was drinking. They weren't "drunk" drunk, to the point they were stumbling or anything, but I don't believe they should have been operating a vehicle, I'll put it that way.

[cphilip]

The NCAA has for some time now banned the sale of Alcohol at events. Since the early 80's I think. Universities and College's do not sell Alcohol at games if they are a NCAA member and most are.

There is nothing stopping any of them from renting a room and hiring a bar tender to proceed with an after day party. That is the plan for SC AO. We will make sure its done within the letter and spirit of the law. Just not there on the site like they are at WC. Well...nothing is stoping WS from doing that except for the fact that they childishly took their marbels and went home!

[Thordic]

NCAA isn't professional, though. I wouldn't expect alcohol at college games. Hell, lots of colleges are dry campuses now.

Stupid administration people, ruining our fun! :)

Its our right to drink ourselves stupid if we want to, so long as we stay away from cars, guns, fireworks, sharp pointy objects, helicopters, cliffs, airplanes, deep pits, short doorways, slippery hallways, "cute" farm animals, ugly women, permanant markers, tattoo parlors, electric sockets, and the ocean.

[cphilip]

didn't imply they were professional....I was just adding to someones statement about what sports allow alcohol is all. But as to the NCAA, Now you gotta keep it in the parking lot! ;)

And who says they are not professional!!! Ooops! Never mind! :D

[ogre55]

Regarding Bill Mills' post on player participation in the NPPL (I didn't quote it for the sake of brevity) that is just plain sad. The information was an eye opener.

How are we to make our sport more acceptable to the general public, when the supposed vangaurd of the sport, the professional players and teams, don't seem to give a flying fig what happens to it?

Ogre

[shartley]

Originally posted by ogre55
How are we to make our sport more acceptable to the general public, when the supposed vangaurd of the sport, the professional players and teams, don't seem to give a flying fig what happens to it?

Ogre
I think the whole point is that it seems that people would rather sit around and complain about how things are being run, than to actually step up to the plate and do something about it.

However, with that said, I don’t think the players should be the ones making the rules or doing any of the organizing anyway. Some may not like me saying this, but I have some valid reasons for thinking this way.

I think players should focus on playing the sport. Can you imagine if Pro Football players (Basketball, etc.) were the ones who actually set schedules, ran the teams, made rulings, planned events, etc.? In fact, to do things right, you need folks that actually DO that for a living, or at least focus on that aspect.. but NOT playing the game.

Does this mean that I am saying players should not have a say? Not at all. I think there should be a Players Advisory Board made up of some of the top players/teams (or those they choose to act on their behalf) and that board work directly with the new “Ruling Authority”.

Most other sports keep these things separate, and for a good reason. But Paintball players seem to think they can do it all, but then act surprised when they find out that they CAN’T. I also think in many cases Paintball Players and Teams end up being their own worse enemy. They should stick to playing the game, and being good at it, and let others do the jobs THEY are good at. It is one hand washing the other, and you can get a lot cleaner that way…. (And have more fun!)

I always find it odd that so many folks think it is up to players to promote the sport. IT ISN’T! It is up to Manufacturers, Paintball Stores/Pro Shops, and Field Owners to do that. Again showing how Paintball just can’t get in step with the rest of the world. Can you imagine if Auto Dealers and Manufacturers simply stopped promoting their Industry and asked that car drivers take over? LOL

In Paintball, the “Industry” promotes to the Players (or current customer base), but seem to want the Players to promote the “Sport” to the general public (the future customer base). There is a major flaw in thinking with this. And what seems to be lost in the shuffle of pandering to the current customer base ONLY, is that by promoting not only your product, but the Sport, to the general public, your current customers will STILL see the marketing as well as you have now helped EXPAND that customer base.

But time and again I hear folks say how paintball players and teams should take the lead…. Hogwash. It is time the INDUSTRY step up and do things right. It is time that the thoughts of paintball players are heard but actually acted upon by those truly responsible for things. And I think that is one of the fundamental problems with Paintball at this point.

I also think the Paintball Industry needs to stop looking IN, and start looking OUT. Start realizing that the reasons other sports and industries are so successful is that they draw on the skills of those NOT in those industries.

I also find it a bit contradicting that people would on one hand complain that decisions that HAVE been made to protect the sport in general (or an event) are “too tough” or “unreasonable” and then advocate things that would in turn BE a detriment to the sport, or potentially be. It is like everyone wants their cake and eat it too… but the world does not work that way. I liken it to being a parent, we make decisions NOW that we thought were terrible when we were kids…but they have to be made, for the good of all.

I would rather that folks be pissed off for a time, but the sport actually become the primer sport of the first decade of the new minimum, than to let folks just have “fun at any cost“ and the sport suffer for it. Instant gratification can be a dangerous thing if you totally disregard any potential consequences caused by that gratification.

And I am not saying that people can not have a good time. There have been several alternative solutions already posted in this thread for the “fun” issue. It does not have to be all or nothing. There CAN be a solution that will give each group their wants, needs, and desires… and yet not reflect badly on the sport in general, or the event that originally drew those groups together.

Paintball folks can continue to bicker among themselves in endless circles that fix nothing, and continue to think what they do is in a bubble, not related to the rest of the world or effecting/effected by it, and the sport will go nowhere… OR they can work together and learn from other Sports and Industries (because in Paintball there is a difference, and it has BOTH) and help advance them both.

[ogre55]

So then moving on from the theoritical to the practical, how do we propose to do this. Where does the NFL (not the teams mind you, but the actual League organization) get the money to function. I would guess from the team owners. In order to be part of the league, you have to pay to be a member.

Since most of the pro teams are either owned by, or heavily sponsered by, manufacturers, then what needs to be done is the NPPL, or any other organizing body, needs to become proactive in seeking contributions, or fees from the manufacturers to allow their teams to play in NPPL events.

This brings another issue to the fore, which has to do with money and accountability. If the NPPL (I will continue using them as an analogy, even though you can replace them with any of the other league organizations in paintball) were to get most or all of it's financial support from the manufacturers, who would they be accountable to? Would a manufacturer or team sponser be able to influence them somehow because they hold the purse strings?

This does not seem to an issue in major sports as the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL etc. have become the standard and no one team, no matter how much they contribute, would be able to influence them, I hope. But what about our little sport. Money wise, we are not nearly as big. And in the 20 years of this sport's existance we have already had at least 3 large organization, that I know of, come and go (IPPA and two NPPLs)

And finally, what would stop some huge manufacturer (Kingman and BE come to mind) with too much money from starting up their own competing organization that they control exclusively?

Ogre

[hitech]

Originally posted by ogre55
Would a manufacturer or team sponser be able to influence them somehow because they hold the purse strings?

This does not seem to an issue in major sports as the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL etc. have become the standard and no one team, no matter how much they contribute, would be able to influence them, I hope.

I think you are kidding yourself. Where do you think the special rules for quarterbacks came from? Not from any of the teams without a star quarterback. Why do the stars in the NBA get a few extra steps on the way to the basket? I know it's kind of off the subject, but it does happen in the major sports.

[GT]

Shartly I agree with you 100%

However one big difernce I see in all these sports, for the most part, is ONE governing body. I think it is about time that a group be formed of ALL the manufactures, dealers, and players. They can hash out how the rules are going to be played and so forht. I think it is both a unity and accountability issue.

[Thordic]

Do you have any idea how long it took professional sports to form ONE league? MUCH longer than paintball has been around. We aren't behind schedule at all.

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech


I think you are kidding yourself. Where do you think the special rules for quarterbacks came from? Not from any of the teams without a star quarterback. Why do the stars in the NBA get a few extra steps on the way to the basket? I know it's kind of off the subject, but it does happen in the major sports.
And that is a good point.

What needs to happen is not looking for faults in a clearly WORKING system, but emulate what IS working. The major leagues are always trying to “better” themselves, and that is a great thing. They DO have problems, no doubt… but they are also in no fear of falling apart.

Paintball on the other hand can not make those claims.

The important thing is when you look at the big picture, can you say it is actually benefiting the sport, or holding it back? What Paintball has been doing certainly isn’t helping “progress” the sport at any pace that would even come close to outweighing the problems that currently exist.

I also don’t think any one company would step up and form their own organization to counter or take over a unified organization already in place. Why? It simply takes too many resources to do so. And it would actually be counter productive from an industry standpoint. And if it is counter productive for the Industry, it is counter productive to continuing and even rising/expanding sales. Only through cooperation and unilateral support can such a leagues truly flourish and the Sport progress (sounds like I am trying to pass a bill.. LOL).

That is also where smaller, yet equally important entities such as Players Boards, Consumer Groups, etc. come into play. They help keep the checks and balance system. And this was my point.

To think, and require, the players themselves to do it all, is not only foolish, but will always yield the same fruits…. Sour grapes, and a sport that will never grow past the immediate wallets of the Paintball Manufacturers themselves… who at this point seem perfectly content with the status quo, or at a minimum are not doing much to change it.

This of course will not really affect the rec. or backyard player as much as the Pro players (or at least those who are into serious tournament play)… but where do you think Pro Players are grown? ;) And anything that helps the Industry as a whole will increase the base level participation as well. It is a win-win situation with few downsides… well, except that those currently in “top” positions in the industry now will have to do some serious thinking and actually change the way they do things…. And we all know how willing folks are to change… ;)

I am also not saying that I have ALL the answers. Heck, no one person does. But it is with SERIOUS dialog with people who are willing to explore all possibilities, that change for the better can occur… and not before. And then only with ACTION on those discussions will things truly change.

Until then I see Paintball as a big dog barking while chasing its tail. We will all get some level of enjoyment from it, but it will not go very far.

Originally posted by gtrsi
Shartly I agree with you 100%

However one big difernce I see in all these sports, for the most part, is ONE governing body. I think it is about time that a group be formed of ALL the manufactures, dealers, and players. They can hash out how the rules are going to be played and so forht. I think it is both a unity and accountability issue.
I agree.

Originally posted by Thordic
Do you have any idea how long it took professional sports to form ONE league? MUCH longer than paintball has been around. We aren't behind schedule at all.
And this is also very true. But do you think any of the leagues became successful by just sitting around complaining about things? That is my point, on schedule or not, something has to be done or the sport will not progress. Heck, look at the USA, think the founding fathers just sat back and said.. “Well, look at the other countries. Look how long they took to get to where they are today. Looks like we are on schedule!” ;) Nah… they DID something. And that is all I am suggesting. Head nodding does little more than shake your head. ;)

[billmi]

Originally posted by ogre55
So then moving on from the theoritical to the practical, how do we propose to do this. Where does the NFL (not the teams mind you, but the actual League organization) get the money to function. I would guess from the team owners. In order to be part of the league, you have to pay to be a member.


The problem is that in present paintball tournaments, the team/players are the customers. The switch to be like other pro sports is that they need to be the performers, and the audience (either spectators or television audience) needs to be the customers. In that situation, the players don't make the rules or call the shots. The rules and shots are designed to make things appeal to the audience and of course be as safe as practical - that's the consideration, not the player's idea of what is a cool game. Then it's the team owners buying franchises to be a part of it, and not players paying to play.

For that to happen, someone will have to step forward and pony up the $$$.

Keep your eye on the X-Ball.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Shartly I agree with you 100%

However one big difernce I see in all these sports, for the most part, is ONE governing body. I think it is about time that a group be formed of ALL the manufactures, dealers, and players. They can hash out how the rules are going to be played and so forht. I think it is both a unity and accountability issue.

That is a common and mistaken concept.

Did the XFL have to answer to the NFL officials? No.
Do YMCA soccer leagues have to answer to major league soccer officials? No.
Do Formula 1 race drivers have to follow NASCAR rules? No.
If you and some buddies are going to the park to play softball do you have to answer to anyone on what rules you use? No.
Does the Pan Am circuit have to answer to the NPPL officers? No.
Does X-Ball have to answer to the NPPL? No.

The only thing a governing body has to control is the league that is under it - that's all.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[shartley]

Good points Bill.....