Pro's & Con's of Lvl 10

[Magluvr]

I apologize if this is the wrong area to be posting this thread, but I wanted some "real" answers not the typical "Its worth the money".

So I was wondering if there were any other advantages to level 10 besides it not chopping balls. Are there any downsides, like having to adjust it. So please if you could fill me in, I'd be much obliged!

[Marek]

My roommate's Emag has lvl 10 in it, and last week he has having problems with it. Changed to a different carrier, and then *poof* nothing wrong. Thats the only thing that Ive ever seen wrong with it. Hope this helps.

[Load SM5]

Another atvantage is a lighter bolt that reduces kick. The only disadvantage I can think of is a slight amount of adjustment in the very beginning of the process. Once you get it tweaked you're good to go.

[FatMan]

One misconception is that Lvl 10 is strictly no-chop - in fact, it was designed to reduce all kinds of breakage. Tom found that a large percentage of ball breaks down the barrel resulted from the bolt cracking the shell on the next ball in line (not the one being shot) which would then result in that ball breaking when it was shot. Lvl 10 reduces this significantly, and ALSO reduce breaks in the breech (chops). As pointed out, it also uses a lighter bolt that causes less gun movement while firing.

The Lvl 10 system is a little fussier about all of the rings and spacers and stuff being just right. I don't think anyone has had one long enought to really measure the time to failure due to wear on the rings and stuff, but I would predict it is shorter than with the older bolt system. Still, all that means is you might have to replace a ring from time to time. Adjustments to the system aren't really any more difficult than before - once you have the system adjusted correctly for the first time.

I'm a long time Mag shooter - I've shot the standard valve, the Retro-valve, and now the Lvl 10. I can honestly say the Lvl 10 is worth the money - I won't go back to the old system, no way. I am also a big fan of the Retro-valve, though oddly enough, I'm not big on the electronic triggers (but that's just me).

Lvl 10 gets a big two thumbs up from me. And that is based on actual playtime performance.

Good luck,

FatMan

[Tack]

I found that at least with mine when my tank reached around 1000 psi with the LX it started not wanting to shoot. It acted like it was being starved and it would only shoot every once in a while. Is that the case with everyone else, or do I need to adjust something?

[Rooster]

The con is that it takes a couple hours and several tries to set it up if you have never done it before.

The pros are less kick and few to no chops.

[Jonesie]

I've been a Level 10 user since the Beta offering. In my opinion, there are no cons. Chops have been eliminated, gun cycles much smoother, and my ReTro has never functioned better! Many of us 'tweakers' love the adjustments required by LX. I'll NEVER own a Cocker, but LX lets me tinker.

The only problem I've had was the bolt sticking back (refusing to fire) one time because I failed to oil the valve before a day of play. I have found that putting a couple drops of lube in the air inlet solves this problem.

I give Airgun Designs' Level 10 Upgrade my full endorsement!

Later ~ Jonesie

[FrAuStY]

Originally posted by Tack
I found that at least with mine when my tank reached around 1000 psi with the LX it started not wanting to shoot. It acted like it was being starved and it would only shoot every once in a while. Is that the case with everyone else, or do I need to adjust something?

I have to second this... and this to me is the ONLY CON to this system. You will notice once you shut-off the air supply, that the gun will no long shoot down to a sputter, it will actually hold about 500 psi in the lines. This is easily solved with the addition of some type of bleed-off system or de-gas valve. This is caused by the heavy spring holding the bolt back. One the pressure is equal on both sided the bolt won't move and you'll have to de-gas the system inorder to discconect the valve from the airsource (taking it apart to clean it etc).

One may say that there is a loss of efficiency due to the leaking of air that causes the bolt to stop. I have yet to notice this.. and if it does exist, it's miniscule.

The pro's - Almost 0 chops. In my case.. no chops in over 15,000 rounds of paint since install! Thats pretty freaking good considering I have tried to chop every kind of paint I come across! I even tried some walmart superswirl that rated 0 bounces out of 15 balls. Guess what.. not a single one broke! I even twist-locked it in the barrel hole and ramped on the trigger about 50 times to prove to everyone at my field.. mags WILL NOT CHOP ANYMROE!

Lighter bolt, less recoil, also seems more quiet now... not a loud schilink noise when you fire it.. just a nice consistent pop (like an angel?)

Tuneability (if thats a word) You can play with the springs to get your desired "low impact" of the bolt.. maybe you want it to be more efficient, go to a shorter spring..it's won't stop as easily, but you won't "waste" that little bit of extra air used to push out against the larger springs. You can add more or less shims to change the amount of time before it vents. All in all.. once it's running...all you have to do is put 2-4 drops of oil in the ASA on the valve and dry fire it about 20 times before you play. This will ensure smooth play all day long!

BTW- Get it.. it's worth every penny ;) Had to do that!


Originally posted by Magluvr-but I wanted some "real" answers not the typical "Its worth the money"

[warpfeedmod]

Pros - No chops, saves time on the field having to clean your gun after a break

Cons - I still get leaks down the barrel occasionaly, i usually have to turn off the air source to get it to stop. It's real miniscule, you can barely hear it, but if I leave it sit overnight it'll drain the tank. Another big one, at least for me, is because of the reduced kick, my warp doesn't work anymore. I've got the sensitivity all the way up (well as far as it'll go without running on its own) and still won't spin. I don't have an electro-frame so I can't link it. Still looking for a solution to this one.

[SkElL~ObIsSiS]

to The guy with the warp problem....

What trigger frame do u have? if you have an inteliframe install a micro switch behind the trigger like the setup for the revy. if you dont you can always take a peice of sheet metal and use african american engineering to make it work...if you have any questions about it IM me, i installed an intelifeed in my stock mag trigger.


this is all based on the asumption that you can activate the warp by wiring a microswitch to it, i dont know if ya can or not...good luck

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by SkElL~ObIsSiS
and use african american engineering to make it work...

You did not just go THERE! :D :D



this is all based on the asumption that you can activate the warp by wiring a microswitch to it, i dont know if ya can or not...

You sure can. I did it. You have to change a jumper on the Warp to the negative position for it to receive the signal.

Good Luck ~ Jonesie

[demonguy8]

heres my cons...

I am forced to use the very smallest spring to chrono in at 270-280 and i CANNOT chrono below 250 (ie.. no more indoor for me without cutting the spring? or using origional bolt)

the lvl10 works best with larger springs.. (mine is NOT very gentle on paint...(basically its quite rare but i can still chop with horribly brittle paint)

I am on a 0 carrier (no dots or lines) and not only dont get ANY bolt stick but am still capable of chopping ( read above) and since its already the smallest carrier I cant "tweak" mine to make it softer or whatnot

and lastly.. the degassing issue.. (the gun holds quite a bit of residual pressure where it wont shoot *more pressure with bigger springs btw* on mine with the small springs its around 300psi) now if you use a screw in tank or have a degasing method then this isnt an issue..

and yet after all this (and a defective bolt *Was one of the beta kits mind you*) I will still reccommend it.

[warpfeedmod]

Originally posted by SkElL~ObIsSiS
and use african american engineering to make it work

'heheh I beleive the term is "Southern Engineering"

[Phil]

My experience with L10 has been dismal at best. I believe I understand the tweeking process (I could be wrong) but have not been able to get the results I desire and others have achieved. There seems to be no middle ground between being hard on paint and the gun not fireing due to too much resistance. When I first installed L10 my gun fired reliably. I fanned the trigger in an attempt to out shoot my revvy to check the "no chop". I chopped. I reviewed the instructions and tried a smaller carrier. The gun wouldn't fire reliably. I went back up a carrier and put in a larger spring. The gun wouldn't fire at all. I replaced the original configuration of spring and carrier and gave up trying to make it not chop. In this configuration it is much softer on paint than the original bolt but if I put a paintball partway in the breech it impacts it hard enough to crack the shell. Now I have a new problem. Several weeks into L10 my gun started to get fineky. Sometimes it wouldn't fire unless I held down the trigger for several seconds. After which it would fire normally. Last week on the last game of the day my gun refused to fire at all. I played with the imput pressure going all the way up to 1000psi and still nothing. I keep my gun clean and oil it before each day of play. There is obviously something wrong with my tweaking or my gun. Today I posted in the tech forum asking for help on this very issue.

Phil