Avalanche Allegedly Caught Cheating and Thrown out of WC

[Scooter/Cootie]

I saw this on Warpig. Has anyone seen or heard anything about this?

"Friday afternoon saw a controversial game that will no doubt be the subject of conversation for years to come. Ground Zero faced Avalanche in the preliminary rounds on the National Paintball Supply field, on the South edge of the tournament complex. After a few GZ players were eliminated, they stood in the dead box trying to figure out who had shot them. They had been hit in the back. GZ player Pete Utschig looked out in the woods and spotted some blond hair. He bolted from the dead box, and reportedly chased down and apprehended Jeremy Salm of Avalanche dressed in black, with a black paintgun.

Statements had been made prior to the game that Salm was ill, so Avalanche team owner and retired player Ed Poorman was playing in his place on Friday. The decisions that resulted from the game were that Avalanche forfeited their points for the game, was withdrawn from the tournament, and Salm would be suspended from NPPL/PSP tournaments for the 2003 season."

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tournament/nppl/2002/worldcup/index.shtml

*** Made correction that bill looks like he fixed in the article: it was GZ vs Avalanche - not Aftershock.

[Remington]

Not cool. Serves Salm right, although unless Avalanche new about his actions thats not entirely fair to them.

[bunkerking]

I can't help but laugh because that was sooo funny, but that is so wrong that he would even think of doing that.

[zbody]

Anyone know if there is video of this incident up on the web yet?

[skipdogg]

Why would he shoot GZ players?

Did GZ play Aftershock or Avalanche?

[straightshot]

That is thoroughly screwed up.

[Blennidae]

Isn't there netting around the fields? How could people not notice paint coming from outside the playing field?

If its true, its a new low.

[straightshot]

On the side of the fields that were facing the woods there was no netting. (I was there earlier in the week).

[Scooter/Cootie]

Here's a shot of the fields. The middle one is the National Paintball Supply one.

[krafty]

Wow.

Personally, I don't think the punishment is enough. I'd kick Salm out permanently and suspend the team for a year.

[Creative Mayhem]

Nasty Just when you thought you've seen everything.

C Mayhem
AKA Purple Wang

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by skipdogg
Why would he shoot GZ players?

Did GZ play Aftershock or Avalanche?


He wrote aftershock but GZ gold was playing avalanche at the time. They players that knew about this should get a 5 year ban, minimum.

[Scooter/Cootie]

Originally posted by ShooterJM



He wrote aftershock but GZ gold was playing avalanche at the time.

If that's true, it opens a whole new can of worms in my opinion.

Salm was reported to be sick and incapable of playing. If he was doing a "favor" for Aftershock, thats wrong. But if he did this against a team that Avalanche was playing, that's even worse.

[bunkerking]

nope, on warpig it said that gz was playing avalanche

[magman007]

ok, i dont condone this, and im quite furrious, they just set paintball back a long way...

but come on! how stupid are you? First off there shooting the team with the nppl president on it! OK then the guy is in all black, why the hell isnt he wearing a black hat over his blonde hair?


Also, why would you shoot people in the back? are you stupid? line your shots up so you atleast hit them in the side or frint! wow i hate stupid people, but when they royally mess up my sport then... it just chills my blood

[banzaimf]

Maybe I'm overly harsh, but cheating that is THAT BLATANT would seem to me an offense that would cost each member of that team 1 year of suspension, and at least 6 months of suspension from advertizing and sponsoring in PSP/NPPL for the Primary Sponsor. Reason? This is Bovine Scattology of immense proportions, to bust both the entire team AND Primary sponsor makes the rest of the team and the sponsor re-evaluate the whole issue of cheating. This is crap. Complete and total crap.

[FutureMagOwner]

wow all i can say is wow besides that all i can say thing

[Jonno06]

isnt Chuck Hendsh on Dynasty,not GZ Gold?

anywho...i think jeremy is a moron..but if Lanche' didnt know about it,they should get in THAT MUCH trouble...imo

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by banzaimf
Maybe I'm overly harsh, but cheating that is THAT BLATANT would seem to me an offense that would cost each member of that team 1 year of suspension, and at least 6 months of suspension from advertizing and sponsoring in PSP/NPPL for the Primary Sponsor. Reason? This is Bovine Scattology of immense proportions, to bust both the entire team AND Primary sponsor makes the rest of the team and the sponsor re-evaluate the whole issue of cheating. This is crap. Complete and total crap.

Agreed. Make an example of them!

[magman007]

olny problem with the sponsor is that it is warped sports.. and ed porman, owner of warped heads up the PSP so we wont see that happening any time soon....

[Bulldog]

If that's actually true...wow, I hope it's not, but if it is, I hope they ban anyone involved permanently.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by magman007
olny problem with the sponsor is that it is warped sports.. and ed porman, owner of warped heads up the PSP so we wont see that happening any time soon....


Yeah. Even if Ed didn't know about it. The world's definately gonna see what kind of man Ed Poorman really is based on his reaction as PSP

[Jonesie]

Has to make you wonder, is this the first time something like this has happened?

Jonesie

[845]

Thats extremely lame

[xmetal2001]

what an idiot...somebody is bound to notice getting hit in the back of the head off of break.:rolleyes:

[JohnTzu]

Pernonally, I don't think you guys are being severe enough... Cheating of that magnatude should require that
players involved in the deed be banned from tournament play, permanently. It's the only way to send a clear cut message that we (the paintball community as a whole) won't tolerate this crap anymore. If our sport is to advance to the mainstream, and be taken seriously, we have got to take extreme measures to ensure that things get cleaned up in the so called "Pro" ranks. I mean really, if the pros are the best this sport has to offer, than they shouldn't have to cheat to get ahead, right?

Just my two cents.

[yeahthatsme]

good god. that really makes you think whether or not they are playing to win or for fun. these are the pro's. they should be totally and completely against cheating. not doing it. i think no matter whotf is on the team they should all get suspended and the cheater should get banned for life. its just not right. they should know better. thats my 0.02

[yeahthatsme]

to sum it all up...


http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=483028

[Ov3rmind]

This is flat out PATHETIC!!!

[Jack & Coke]

IMHO

Give him a choice:

BANISHMENT for 1 year - ALL NPPL events. and BANISHMENT for his TEAM for the next 3 NPPL events.

or

10 Bonus Ball paybacks (shirtless) for each person he shot in the back.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[SHOCKER1050]

man that is funny...i could picture it in my head..having the player chase down the guy in black running for his life lol
stupid ppz

[K-villeplayer]

If I were Pete Utschig and "apprehended" Jermey, I think I would have gone just a little overboard on tackling him. I also think that a one year suspension is NOT enough and the team as a whole should be out of the wc and jermey out for at least 3-10 years. Would set a precedent that would show everyone that we are serious. By the way, does the PSP have a website or email address?

-Andrew

[oldsoldier]

Being a pro, and cheating so blatantly, he should be banned for life. And, if investigations find the team knew of it (and, I am sure that they had an idea), they should be disbanded, and the players banned for a year at the least.

[Jack Napier]

They probably think its funny, but they just don't know what they've done. This makes the world cup, one of the biggest tournaments around, look like a big joke. Its hard to take paintball seriously when this kind of **** happens at an event as big as this. Bannem all, and set an example to the players dammit.

[Ov3rmind]

Avalanche's Ed Poorman Speaks Out (http://www.paintball.com/features/story.cfm?placementID=1539)
It sounds like the whole team, or atleast some of the team had no idea this was going to happen. Ed could be lying about it, but I doubt it for some reason. Jeremy Salm also said himself that the rest of the team didn't know anything about it. Jeremy should be banned from the NPPL for life, IMO. However, if the rest of the team didn't know about it, I think being banned from one major tournament (the most important one too) is good enough. It would suck to see some players such as Rocky Cagnoni and Chris Lasoya never play in the NPPL again.

[dmonahan]

If this is ture I agree. He should be banned from nppl/psp for live but as in the past the offending partys will get off with a slap on the hand. That's the problem with a self supported industry. They do not have the nads to take action against one of their own. Just watch and see.

[dansim]

im disgusted, i actaully like avalanche(fav team) and you gotta belive they knew about this...disgusted

[1stdeadeye]

If the NPPL/PSP is to have any crediblity, Avalanche has to go. Salm for life, the team forever. The rest of the players would have to find new teams.

Enough is enough. Someone has to be made an example of!

[Spaceman613]

And the Aftershock comment by Ed was low, Dont TRY to bring another team down to the lowest level since Ceaser and Fusion's fiasco. Poor comments by Ed, and a very low blow to the game.

Makes my job as a ref difficult when kids see this and think cheating is OK sine the "pro's do it.

[sniper1rfa]

do what i do...
i saw a kid (who had been bragging about wiping beforehand) wipe one of my shots. i emptied and ENTIRE hopper on him.

i find cheating to be vile, disgusting..
If you have to cheat to win you SUCK!

If the team did not know beforehand, the should be allowed back into the next tournament, minus jeremy. if the team knew, ban'em all.
jeremy should be banned for life. i sure as hell wouldnt let him play with us if he showed around here.

[Troy]

IMHO opinion.

Ban Jeremy Salm for life. Ban the rest of them for a year.
Its not like they have been playing on Sunday anyway. I beleive Jeremy is the captain so I doubt he acted without the rest of the teams knowledge.

I just hope this doesn't set back tournament paintball like the Xtreme/Fusion game fixing from a few years ago. And for Ed to try to bring up Aftershock when its is his team that is caught is lame.

What a bunch of DONKEYS.

[845]

Wait what happenedid poorman say about Aftershock?

[Troy]

Paintball.com has a quote from ED saying in which he trys to justify his teams wrong doings by bringing up other teams.

[dansim]

Originally posted by Troy
IMHO opinion.

Its not like they have been playing on Sunday anyway.


hmmm, this comment is kinda along the lines of eds isnt it?

[PolishSausage]

Heres a question for you guys. If Avalanche goes, would you aloud the players to stay together? Starting a new team, searching for new sponsors, or would you mandate that each player must join a seperate team, maybe limit two player from Ava. to each new team? just some food for thought.

-Tyler

[syk]

New quote is up on warpig...

"We, Team Avalanche, would like to apologize to our sponsors and our fans for the actions of one individual, who is no longer on our team. Although, as a team we take full responsibility, we would like everyone to understand that we were unaware of what had transpired until after the fact. Also, we would like to state that the decision made by the rules committee was the correct one."

[2000Sabre]

IMHO the entire team should be banned from tournament ball for life. I'm sorry but as a Pro team each member must vouch for the credibility and honesty of every player on that team. This is just like the famous "Black Sox" team that fixed the world series. Every player determine to be in a position to know the fix was in was banned from baseball for life. I don't see any difference in this. The only way the NPPL can send a message is to take an action like this. How could anyone take "PRO" paintball seriously if they don't.

[angelKiller16]

I think every member of the cheating team(s) should be banned for 5 years and the stupid idiot in the woods for LIFE. Also when the players return (if they do) i wouldn't alow them to play together. no more then 3 of the previuse players on the same team again.

PS this is just lame!!!!!!!!! the guy is a MORON!!!!!!!!

[halB]

its quite obvious the whole team knew about this, and that they planned this through. to think the team truly thought their teammate was ignorant for that one game, and to already have a fill in for him, well thats just nuts. this was a well thought out plan, although it was poorly executed (blonde hair? wtf is wrong with him, cammies man)

[Cliffio]

what a freakin idiot

halb, they didnt have a sub, ed had to play in his place, and as we all know ed is retired

[*ArKfEaR*]

lololololololololololololol


That’s the funniest paintball news I have ever heard, period.

The level of senselessness has just hit the moon, wait beyond that, PLUTO!

HAHAHHAH!

[yeahthatsme]

and then theres the fact they could have won the competition considering up until then they had not gotten below a 90. they would have won or atleast gotten top 3. but no they had to cheat and they should now pay. the pure stupidity it must have taken to do that must be amazing.


and then theres the fact that the pros arent playing to have fun their playing for recognition and money. its not what pro paintball should be. its not right. and i disagree with the way the nppl/psp tourneys are run.

[Troy]

To say that the NPPL Pro players are in it for the money is ridiculus. Most of them don't make any money playing and if any do it isn't much.

I also think that at this time the NPPL/PSP is handling this correctlly. They were swift in booting Avalanche from the tournament and in banning Salm. I don't think there was a set rule for this and they quickly punished the offending team.

[RusskiX]

There's a lot of talk of "anyone on the team who knew, etc.", but how are you going to prove who knew and who didn't? Salm was obviously apprehended red-handed and he should be gone, but the rest of the team can claim he said/she said BS.

Personally I think it makes the sport look ridiculous. This is the world championship of paintball and it highlights pro team cheating and the inability of the refs/organizers to prevent it. Paintball won't gain mainstream acceptance as a viable "sport" if we can't even police ourselves.

The organizers/league need to create an environment where cheating is not possible. Netting on ALL sides, professional independant refs who do not play, severe penalties for infractions.

Makes me glad I play only recball!

[Scooter/Cootie]

Thought this was interesting.

[Duke Henry]

This is just a wild guess, but has anyone considered maybe Salm did this to screw over the team? Maybe there was some internal dissention, and Salm was extremely mad at the time - mad enough to perhaps contemplate ending his paintball career...

Just a thought - because anything else that I think up makes no sense.

Either way, every player on Av will be have their reputations tarnished because of this incident.

[lopxtc]

*L* Anyone wanna tell that moron what they feel?

From Avalanche's website;

jeremy@avalanchepaintball.com

Now play nice, this is meant to be a constructive way of letting this person know how disappointed you are in him ... :rolleyes:

Aaron

[magman007]

well i sent away one angry, yet civalized letter... bet you he doesnt respond, even ater i told him how much it may helpp my vision of him... HAHAHA

[Restola]

Pathetic, but not surprising at all.

What do you expect? They're "pros"...

[Skoad]

"We, Team Avalanche, would like to apologize to our sponsors and our fans for the actions of one individual, who is no longer on our team. Although, as a team we take full responsibility, we would like everyone to understand that we were unaware of what had transpired until after the fact.



I don't buy that.

[banzaimf]

I just made a a sig pic for me :-)

[OutRage86]

All sounds too fishy for avalanche not knowing that they were cheating.I know a few guys who know avalnche personally and they said that Rocky taught them how to dive into a bunker off the break if and if they cover there face how to wipe it wihtout getting caught.. So in other words when you run off the break cover your face wiht your hands and if you get hit you get hit in the hand as you dive wipe it on the ground!!!!!!!! If you ask me this is what i heard.. And i know these guys cheat that i play with . ANd they learned directly from some one!

[aaron_mag]

Question from someone uninformed in big tournament ball.

Is this what is wrong with paintball or what is wrong with one team? There are comments on paintball.com that "wiping is part of the game....everyone does it." Is this true at big tournaments? I hope not. That would be pathetic.

If not I'd say that there is at worst one team that was willing to cheat to win and at best one individual. Ban him for awhile and move on.

[Cliffio]

yes, some pros do cheat, if you ever watch some movies you will see it happen if you watch closly. ive seen a few players get hit in the hand off the break (back players) so as they continue to their bunkers they reach down for their squeegy, and all the sudden the hand hit is gone


Cliff

[Brian68mag]

Wow.
That is rediculous.
I personally wouldnt ban the team, just Salm.
I couldnt imagine the team allowing this to happen.
This wont help paintball though.
:(

[aaron_mag]

Well we are not focused with what is really important with this issue. The real issue is what marker did he use to shoot from the forest? Did he stick with the sponsored Angel or did he use a Cocker because they shoot further and more accurately.:D I mean he really couldn't spray and pray from the forest could he? Well he probably did start praying once GZ started chasing him through the woods. Looks like his prayers went unanswered.... ;)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[lopxtc]

According to I believe FoN (http://www.forceofnature.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=350&mode=nested&order=0&thold=0) he was using a Matrix ..


Aaron

[AGD]

Update,

I talked to Bill Cookston tonight and got more details from the horses mouth.

The GZ players in the dead box saw paint coming from the woods and then saw blond hair. One of them (a New York fireman) gave chase, suposedly for some great distance. Salm was reported to have shot back at him during the chase in his effort to escape. Salm lept into a swamp where he was found blubbering like a little kid.

The fireman grabed him and brought him back to the field where Bill Cookston was waiting. He only told Bill two things, "the team didn't know about it" and "please don't walk me out through the cameras". Bill felt that it could get really out of hand if the GZ players got to him so he let him go and kept his gun.

Since then it was rumored that WDP dropped their sponsorship and JT is still thinking about it.

Needless to say this has created a tidal wave through the industry and the players. For me personally there were other forms of cheating in this tournament that I felt were just as bad but done with such sophistication that when people heard about it they just dismissed it.

I think its time that we decide if we want honor in our sport or not. We need to decide what winning is worth and what we are going to teach the players of the future. I find it interesting that the rules call it a foul if you wipe a hit but when its done against you it's suddenly "cheating". When your own players wipe "it's how you play the game".

Cheating of all types is rampant in our game. I am not surprised at all that it gets taken to new levels like this. Unless we do something to change the attitudes and priorities of the average paintball player you can never expect this game to be called a "sport".

There is a difference between a street fight and a boxing match. One gets on TV the other doesn't. One has rules that make it fair the other doesn't. Think about which one tournament paintball is like.....

AGD

[Ov3rmind]

LOL, I couldn't help it!
http://www.pbnation.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=1130225

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Well..I don't know how else to say this...but with the total lack of professionalism at the top levels of our sport I expected something like this to happen eventually.

[Jacob]

Originally posted by AGD

Since then it was rumored that WDP dropped their sponsorship

If this is true I must give kudos to WDP. I was starting to get the impression that paintball companies were unwilling to show a little backbone and do something about the cheating problem. I never thought I would say this, but hopefully other companies will follow WDP's example. If I had a whole bunch of extra money I would go and by an Angel just to show my appreciation (sorry Tom, but don't worry I wouldn't actually shoot it, just use it to hold an extra nitro tank;)

Of course all that is dependent on whether or not the rumor if true.

[Knackers]

BAN him for life!!!
Ban his team just incase they knew about it!
this game has no room for people that will go to that extent to win!
You cant tell me his team knew nothing about it, wouldnt you wonder if the opposition suddenly started walking off the feild when no one was shooting at them???
ALL I can say is good riddence to BAD rubbish!!

[dansim]

too bad they dont rely on wdp for anything but money since they get there angels from ed and rockys company...does this mean we are gonna see the dark impulse? was only jeremys sponsorship pulled or the teams?

[Timmee]

This is my thinking (please read the whole post before you start flaming me).

I don't think the NPPL needs to ban Jeremy Salm. Not even for a single game. His career as a pro is over. No pro team will want him on their team, for fear of being associated with him. Nobody will want to sponsor him, as most of the target demographic will not want to buy the product just because he endorses it (he won't be of any effect on sales, IMO). His name isn't any good in the paintball community, so why bother acknowledging him with a ban.

[Timmee]

Originally posted by AGD


Needless to say this has created a tidal wave through the industry and the players. For me personally there were other forms of cheating in this tournament that I felt were just as bad but done with such sophistication that when people heard about it they just dismissed it.

I think its time that we decide if we want honor in our sport or not. We need to decide what winning is worth and what we are going to teach the players of the future. I find it interesting that the rules call it a foul if you wipe a hit but when its done against you it's suddenly "cheating". When your own players wipe "it's how you play the game".

Cheating of all types is rampant in our game. I am not surprised at all that it gets taken to new levels like this. Unless we do something to change the attitudes and priorities of the average paintball player you can never expect this game to be called a "sport".

There is a difference between a street fight and a boxing match. One gets on TV the other doesn't. One has rules that make it fair the other doesn't. Think about which one tournament paintball is like.....

AGD

Is this why AGD doesn't sponsor many (if any) pro teams or leagues? Personally, I agree with you. IMO, paintball is meant to be fun, not win at all costs. I think tourney ball needs professional refs, and another way to police the way teams play. Maybe then we'll see more paintball on tv.

[Laser]

If they want to get rid of a good percentage of the cheating have more refs. Each ref beeing responsible for 1 or 2 players each

[Snewk]

This is a slap in the face to all paintball player who play responsibly in rec or tournament play. What I mean is those who don't wipe, play just to have fun wether you win or lose, tagged the other team out or didn't get a single tag. I'm not a big time super tournament player, I'm just a rec baller now and play with friends, and have a good time doing it. By seeing Salm do this, it disgusts me to see a person, who is probably a role model to quite a few young paint ballers out there, pull this stunt on such a widely advertised event such as World Cup makes me sick.

Now about the previous comments about Rocky teaching people how to wipe and such. I don't know if I'd believe that. I met him personally at my local field when he rolled through a few weeks back. He is a very nice person, and spent time to talk to me and shake my hand. To me that is the best thing a pro can do to reach out and help the community. Not shoot the opposing team from the woods.

With WDP supposedly dropping their sponsorship, good for them. It does show they have no room for cheaters, and I hope JT and the other companies that sponsor Avalanche to follow. Salm screwed Avalanche and quite possibly paintball up for life.

[Restola]

Originally posted by AGD

We need to decide what winning is worth and what we are going to teach the players of the future.
That decision was made long ago, and before paintball ever existed.

There will always be someone, somewhere, that will go to any lengths to win.

I have no respect for the professional tourny scene. Its hard to really respect any team you dont know on a personal basis when they rank high in a tourny. I look at them, as an average player with no desire to ever go beyond walk-on games, and say "Yeah, they probably cheated. So did the people they beat, they were just better at it." And yes, I will say that about any team when you get to the pro level until I hear something to the contrary (and I have heard good things about many teams).

Other sports are either slow enough that good decisions can be made, or are high-profile enough that cameras are everywhere and calls can be disputed. The nature of our sport makes both of those nearly impossible, and therefor paintball lacks any real legitimacy.

But I could care less if every tourny was cancelled forever. It wont effect me. Rec ball can drive the industry enough to keep it moving. Only problem is I'll have to play with those "pros" on my fields...

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Restola
And yes, I will say that about any team when you get to the pro level until I hear something to the contrary

That is a little harsh! As a rec player I know where you are coming from. There is a great speedball oriented field in my area that was alot of fun to play at. Then it was discovered by all the teams (or the rec players became tourney players) and suddenly it wasn't a "fun" place. Instead we had screaming matches, attitude, and teams claiming a whole field for their practice time. That doesn't mean, however, that ALL tournament players are that way. Most of them are pretty nice and want to have fun. It is just that the loud ones can get pretty darn loud:rolleyes:

[RamboPreacher]

rec. ball, rec. ball - ohhh hahhhhh!

Anyway, now that I have that off my chest...

I have played some tournies, but never at anything like the cup. I have met many great people on different and varied teams. my conclusion is that people are people, and one "bad" person does not make a "bad" team. I think the ruling was fair, though.

What I find appaling is that some of us (I include me here too) have at least thought that all tourny-boys are cheeters. For me, I just make a concious effort to not think that way, because I know that it isn'e true, no matter how I "feel" as a rec-baller (and occasional tourney player).

As someone already posted and as I "preach" - Paintball is FUN!!! maybe that is just my opinion, but I believe that there should be a bit more than that. as another posted an analagy to street-boxing and professional boxing; there is a difference. I hope that the rulings made and the decisians made will help to lead our great sport in a "better" direction at those levels.

Paintball is fun!!! I say, lets all do what we can to educate the public that it is about fun and not just the "win". It is great to win, and we should play to win (at those kinds of events), but it is stil supposed to be, that - PLAY.

if a pro-baseball or football or soccer player or whatever gets caught cheeting, there are penalties, fees and a price must be paid. I am all for making similar rules for paintball. cheeting shouldn't even be an option.

my 2 cents - thanks

[Blennidae]

Maybe something good can come of this. Maybe this will be the wake up call for professional paintball that cheating (in any form) won't be tolerated.

If you make penalties real, harsh and ENFORCED, it will make cheating not "worth" it anymore. Make it a zero tolerance type penalty. You wipe, you and your team are booted from the tournament. More than one occurance per season, banned for the year. Repeat, and banned for life.

Or continue to slap the wrist of the "star players/teams" and live with no hope of any acceptance of paintball as a legitimate sport.

P.S. thanks to everyone who provided clarification on my netting question.

[Grey_Goose]

Originally posted by AGD
For me personally there were other forms of cheating in this tournament that I felt were just as bad but done with such sophistication that when people heard about it they just dismissed it.

AGD
Can you elaborate? I'd PM you, but you don't like that :)

[magman007]

Well, you will all laugh at me, but as a tourny player, i am stand up. I have never wiped. Ever. When i feel a hit, i call the ref and ask for a check, if he says im clean, i will even point out where i thought it was hit. 9/10, the reff missed the hit, and then pulled me. I admit, even though it was one les person on the field for my team (except for those times in chile where i was the last person on the team) IT felt good to have done the right thing.

I agree that wiping cannot be tolorated. One of the many tricks now is to run with your forearm infront of you, then when you dive, when your arm hits, it wipes off. This is utter crap.

I agree that whiping and other things of the sort musnt be tolorated. First offence your whole team sits a game, giving up a perfect game for the oposistion.2nd offence the team forefeits all its points for the tournament, and is asked to leve. IF caught again at another tournament, they forefeit the next 2 tournaments. If ever caught again, they are out of the nppl for a year. This is really how it should be. Same goes for playing with a hit.

AS for Salm, he should be sued by warped. If Avalanche looses its WDP sponsorship, Warped is going to have a hard time being able to distribute their angels, saying they are wdp angels. Also, Warped is as much of avalanche, as AV is as much as warped. There really the same thing. With out AVS, ther isnt really warped. same thing with Adrenalin


Salm is done, for good. No ifs ands or buts, he will never be fairly reffed again, no team will have him, and no sponsor will have him. IF a team does have him, they may loose sponsors because of him. Salm was stupid.....

WDP must be happy he atleast didnt use their marker to cheet. How does Diablo/ draxxus feel about this? him using a matrix?

[Restola]

Originally posted by RamboPreacher
What I find appaling is that some of us (I include me here too) have at least thought that all tourny-boys are cheeters. For me, I just make a concious effort to not think that way, because I know that it isn'e true, no matter how I "feel" as a rec-baller (and occasional tourney player).
True or not, a few players can and have left a black mark on the "professional" sport of paintball.

I dont respect professional paintball, and I do my best not to support it. Someone once said players will have to make up their mind about what they'll put up with, well I've made up mine (before this incident). If I'm spending money, I refuse to support crap I dont like. I haven't heard anything negative about the AGD teams, and I'll keep supporting the company as much as I can as a consumer. But WDP and Warped have serious issues with me.

I'm one guy, does anyone care? No. But the beauty of our country is that if more and more players start to feel like I do, companies (and the teams they give our money to) will change or dissapear.

Teams need to prove their sportsmanship. I have a hard time giving everyone who is being paid to give exposure to a product by winning with it my unconditional trust until they lose it.

Its my money, I want a company to support a team that will earn it.

[Nick1Shot]

I've never condoned cheating of any matter in any game or sport. But No Fear Sports Gear was right when they said "Rules were made to be broken". If it wasn't a problem there wouldn't be a rule about it. Laws make people outlaws. Rules are in place to help control the problem. If you look at an offensive line in the NFL, they actually teach those guys how to grab ahold of a defenders shoulderpads in a way so that the referee can't see it. I compare wiping to holding in the NFL. Look at traveling in the NBA...they don't even bother to call that stuff anymore, the more endorsement $$$ Michael Jordan makes, the more steps he's allowed to take. The thing is, competition brings out what is real in people. And if integrity isn't in a person, you'll see it when they compete, at ANYTHING. It's unfortunate that it has to happen, but it is part of the game. Keep it to a minimum and not allowing it to be "Flagrant" is what's important. I think the "Salm incident" is severe and needs to be dealt with severely. But it shouldn't be compared to wiping. Finally, I'll leave you with this:

"To be a respectable [Paintballer], one must first be a respectable person."
-Ken Swift

Fun stuff,
Nick_OSPM

[Richter]

In my opinion
Avalanche = hoodlums

This latest incident with Avalanche and Salm doesn�ft surprise me. Poorman and Salm have always had this hoodlum jerk attitude since I have know each one of them.

I have seen Poorman be such a jerk that people have literally stop playing our sport. (a recball incident in Nebraska right around when the first angel came out.)

I have seen Poorman break a team because he had the power to do so.
Story:
Local Nebraska team in 1999 started up and was sponsored by Warped Sportz. They mainly had a Warped Sportz sponsorship because one of the players was an owner of a paintball field and was buying his paint exclusively from Warped Sportz. In 2000 this team put together a 10 man and went to LA open were the paintball field owner found a new line of paint coming out. The field owner bought a few skids of paint from the new company but still gave half his business to Warped Sportz. The field owner still also promoted Warped Sportz name and paint at all the local tourneys.

When Poorman found out that the field owner was not buying exclusively from him he didn�ft try to sell him on his product; instead he threatened to pull the sponsorship away from the team if he did not buy exclusively from him. The field owner try to explain that was still buying from them (warped sportz) and still wish to do so. He still bought from Poorman only to now get poor service (putting him on COD; telling the field owner he didn�ft pay enough on invoices, but come find out the field owner paid too much and they owned him credit).

In the end, it broke the team apart. Some could stand to see the Warped Sportz deal go away, while others believed that the field owners business was just that: his business, not the team�fs. So any decision he made they would back him on.

After that incident I have don�ft really think too much of Poorman, until I had a run in with him and Salm last year.
Story:
I went to a tourney in Lincoln Nebraska in the blistering heat in late July 2001. Salm was talking about getting whippets (laughing gas) from some guy in Lincoln. The buzz was still going on about the deadman�fs walk Lasoya pull of on Dynasty. They were gloating about how great a move was�c blah�c blah�c blah. After we entered, we found out that they were playing this 3 man tourney and were not just there to watch. We played them twice in the prelims. First game my buddy cleared all three of them. In the second game it was three on one (me being the one). So since they were gloating about Lasoya�fs great move a few weeks back; I thought why not? I�fll do one. So I do a deadman�fs walk. As I get up to walk of a feel a few balls hit my leg and pack. I tell the ref, as I am walking towards the deadbox, to check my pack; that I don�ft think it broke and I am going to do a deadman�fs walk. The ref looks and stands behind me. I turn my head and I say, �gWell�h? He just shrugs and says he doesn�ft see anything. I then shoot a short burst at Salm�fs back trying to hit his pack. I shoot their other as he was picking up his pods and then shoot Poorman. Poorman has a fit about it and they don�ft give us the hang because some ref supposedly on the other side of the field said I was gone when started the walk. We went to finals anyway and so did Poorman�fs team. I figure that it would be payback time when we played them. When I walked off the field, after being hit, I was expecting the bonus balls all the way off the field and sure enough Poorman complied. He put what he had in his hopper on me, reload, shot some more, and stop as soon as I was out of bounds. I guess I had that coming. (Possibly) Then when I was in the dead box Salm repeated shot (assaulted) me in the deadbox. He ran the steady stream of paint over my other player�fs bunker to shoot me in the dead box. I would have to say he shot about 3 pods at me. I consider couple options at this point: to shoot back, to take my stainless steel barrel off and beat him with it, or to run behind a tree not get shot anymore. I chose the tree because I didn�ft feel like spending time in some county jail that night. I thought over three hundred balls was a little excessive.

So do I think they are hoodlums? (Best non four letter word to describe them)
Yes
Could they possibly plot this incident at the cup?
My opinion: yes
Just take a look the old shagdaddy videos from the first Mardi gras:
Watch Lasoya, on game 3, get hit in the leg and paint seems to disappear.
http://www.omahapaintball.com/video.htm
(right mouse click to save target as; need quicktime and please the site isn�ft all the way up; working on it)

In reflection:
The quote I remember from Poorman talking about cheating as we were talking about tools on field: quote �gBring what ever you want hell, you can bring a whole toolbox on to the field�h

From what have seen a pro will tell how good his marker is and if he gets shot in anything locally, he�fll scream that he didn�ft get any support.

As Denis Miller says, �gBut that�fs just my opinion, I could be wrong�h

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by magman007
Well, you will all laugh at me, but as a tourny player, i am stand up. I have never wiped. Ever.

I don't laugh. I think that people who are playing (whether rec or tourney) for the CHALLENGE are all like this. After all it is the basic rule of the game. There is no challenge otherwise.



Same goes for playing with a hit.
Now here I disagree with you. Penalized fine...but not banned, vilified, etc. We've all at some time played on with a hit. Sometimes you don't notice when you've gotten a gun hit. Last time I played I was happily blasting away until I noticed someone had shot me in the marker elbow. Naturally I wiped it and kept playing (just kidding. I called myself out).



AS for Salm, he should be sued by warped.

Sheesh. Don't bring the lawyers in on this. First off Salm probably doesn't have any money worth going after. Second the best thing that they can do is move on and put it behind them.

[jwa158]

i heard pretty much the exact same thing from what AGD said. i heard this from a couple people talking about it while watching the dynasty and bob long ironmen game (i think it was ironmen). i also heard he was in tears when the fireman brought drug him out to the field. i did watch some of the avalanche and the GZ Gold game. only thing i saw was GZ's back player cursing at the ref cuz he was in the way of his fire and had a rake in the way. i didn't get to watch the rest of the game cuz i had a game to play. later that day when me and a teamate were walking home, we saw lasoya and poorman walking back to the cup. we walked back to the cup later that day and saw lasoya and poorman leaving with 3 angel boxes. i don't think there's really a point to my story, but i just thought i'd bring it up. i hope avalanche didn't plan any of this, cuz i got lasoya's autograph while i was at the cup and i won't have much to brag about if i got an autograph from a team who cheats.

[Ov3rmind]

I do know some of Avalanche cheats (as do a lot of pro teams), but some of 'em don't. I'd personally be very disappointed to find out if Rocky had any idea this was going to happen.

[Automaggin2]

I almost HIT THE FLOOR when i saw this. I cant belive Salm would be so low as to hide in the woods. In all honesty, i think Avalanche knew about this. I blive NPPL offcials should sit down with Avalanche, there sponsors, and refs and decide what to do. This is outrageous.

[sygyzy]

And they think paintball is ready for the Olympics. HA!

[Miscue]

Make teams wear white cotton gloves and such. :)

I lost my fire for PB because of rampant cheating. I'm anal on what paint I use too because of it... only using Anarchy or heavy marking paint. I also have little issue with the occassional bonus ball when necessary... harder to wipe.

I dunno if you can keep people from cheating... I think the answer is inventing means to make it difficult to cheat.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Cliffio
yes, some pros do cheat, if you ever watch some movies you will see it happen if you watch closly. ive seen a few players get hit in the hand off the break (back players) so as they continue to their bunkers they reach down for their squeegy, and all the sudden the hand hit is gone


Cliff

You don't have to look to hard. FON's film of IAO games has close ups of pro players getting hit in the mask and still playing.

Honestly when I saw that film, I figured that this was the worse case of cheating I have ever seen. Too bad I was wrong. At this point, I would hate to be a member of Avalanche. Even if there will be no more suspensions or censures coming from the NPPL/PSP, from this point on, Avalanche and all the players on the team will be playing under a cloud.

There is no way to prove who, if anyone, knew about Salm's actions beforehand, which, for the other memebers of Avalanche is even worse. If there was solid evidence that players X, Y and Z knew, and no else on the team did, then X,Y and Z will have to deal with it, and everyone else on the team can move on.

But with the situation as it stands, every Avalance player will be under suspicion for the rest of their careers. If you were a sponser, would you want your product associated with these guys? This is going to hit them where it hurts, in the pocketbook.

Ogre

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
I find it interesting that the rules call it a foul if you wipe a hit but when its done against you it's suddenly "cheating". When your own players wipe "it's how you play the game".
AGD

What bothers me is that we have gone backwards. When I quit reffing/playing tournaments if you continued to play after you were hit you were penalized. You were responsible for knowing you were hit and leaving the game. We need to make the players responsible for their actions.

[BTAutoMag]

thats so uncool. any true pro would never cheat

[Load SM5]

What sucks as well is that is shadowed the wins by Manny and the boys. Shock took first in the 10 man and the 5 man in case that was missed.

[blnk162]

We were avalanche's last game of the day on thursday and belived that we were victims of the sniper also, just didn't think anything of it, just that we were out played by a pro team.

On field 6 we got to the 50 dorito within the first 2 minutes of the game, our player than posted on Rab who was in the snake.....our player was shot in the back of the head.

2nd player was playing back tape can on woods and took a hopper hit on the side....

3rd player was in the taco by the snake sitting tight in his bunker and looking at the angles with mask pressed against sup air bunker and got gogged....before rusty had taken the rocket

Our last player was in the rocket and did a run through and bunkered out rusty on the opposite side who didnt evn shoot at him and threw his gun, then shot in field and shot another lanche player and then got ripped up the right side of his body without a lanche player in the back corner.....

Needless to say the game went 14 minutes and we shot 5 of them and got sniped....what a great "pro" team

[blnk162]

Originally posted by Cliffio
what a freakin idiot

halb, they didnt have a sub, ed had to play in his place, and as we all know ed is retired


Actually....when we played them knop and rocky sat, and ed was on the field.....


Im sure that Jeremy was givin an ultimatum by ed of 50 grand or so to do it and take the fall.....

Nothing will happen to avalanche Ed has A LOT of pull being on the psp commitee

Also id like to say if people were banned for 5 years or a year for cheating like you all want we wouldnt have nppl/psp events.

[thei3ug]

I love how everyone is so fast to judge Ed and the rest onf Lanche without being there, or seeing what happened. You all assume ed bought his way out of more trouble.

But every pro team does it. In some cases it's one player ruining it for the rest. in others it is planned.

The "sniper" incident happened at other events, and not by avalanche, but nothing was done.

Teams went on with adjusted guns to cheat chronographs, or to fire more than semi, and weaseled their way out of it.

But Avalanche got caught. and now we all hate them.

[MagDog68]

I am sorry to say it, but paintball is just not an honest industry. Maybe that sounds harsh, but how many of us have seen obvious cheating go unchallenged by the powers that be? This latest incident just goes to show how lame duck the NPPL is. Any other professional organization would have banned Jeremy Salm for life and certainly would investigate deeper into all the games Avalanche took part in. Who knows how many other teams fell victim to this sort of underhandedness?

With no legitimate watchdog group ensuring the integrity of any paintball event or product we will continue to see pathetic displays such as this in every major paintball competition.

There needs to be an organization totally unaffiliated with paintball companies and marketing dollars that can check for honesty and integrity in this sport.

~Fred

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Laser
If they want to get rid of a good percentage of the cheating have more refs. Each ref beeing responsible for 1 or 2 players each

HEAR, HEAR.

Unfortunately, this may not be as easy as it sounds. There is a great article in APG (and I say this with much consideration, as I find very few things great about APG of late), about what reffs have to go through. As someone who has done some reffing in the past, I agree with many of the things stated in this article regarding the stuff that reffs have to deal with from players, field owners and everyone else.

Ogre

[1stdeadeye]

If Ed is "retired", why did he have all his gear there ready to go?:confused:

Where did Ninja-Boy Salm get his Matrix? Was it his? Did it belong to a team member?

If this was a long distance trip to Florida and Avalanche was staying in a hotel and N-B Salm was sick, who was supposed to drive him back to the hotel?:confused:

If he was supposed to take the rental car himself, how was Avalanche supposed to get to the hotel?:confused: They couldn't have each had there own rental car.

:confused: :mad: :confused:

[Spaceman613]

Too bad SPPLAT (Society of Paintball Players and Teams)cant take the lead and help out. Id like to see players in the correct divisions. Im not a fan of sandbagging, and I seem to see it too often. SPPLAT could be a great organization to help all of the leagues. AND possibly help with uniform rules.

I am disgusted with cheating, no matter who does it. lanche got caught. How many dont get caught? How many have the balls to expose a team member? I know I have told my team members that I wont tolerate it, and they better not either. Id rather lose fair, than win by cheating.

now about who can enforce cheating.... We can, and hopefully we can show the manufacturers and sponsors that we wont support products that support cheaters.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by thei3ug
I love how everyone is so fast to judge Ed and the rest onf Lanche without being there, or seeing what happened. You all assume ed bought his way out of more trouble.

But every pro team does it. In some cases it's one player ruining it for the rest. in others it is planned.

The "sniper" incident happened at other events, and not by avalanche, but nothing was done.

Teams went on with adjusted guns to cheat chronographs, or to fire more than semi, and weaseled their way out of it.

But Avalanche got caught. and now we all hate them.

Well first of all that's a broad generalization. We don't ALL think that Ed bought his way out of trouble.

Yes, almost every pro team cheats. I'm an equal opportunity hater. You cheat, I hate you equally.

I'm curious as to what other events that this has happened at and who's suspected of it? Don't "kitty"foot around man, if you know of other cases that aren't hear say, spit it out.

Gun modes, etc. Yeah, that happens at rec ball. When's the last time anyone has seen ANY ref pop open a gun to check to see if it has a legal chip. Let alone check the software.

It all comes down to serious enforcment.

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by thei3ug
I love how everyone is so fast to judge Ed and the rest onf Lanche without being there, or seeing what happened. You all assume ed bought his way out of more trouble.

But every pro team does it. In some cases it's one player ruining it for the rest. in others it is planned.

The "sniper" incident happened at other events, and not by avalanche, but nothing was done.

Teams went on with adjusted guns to cheat chronographs, or to fire more than semi, and weaseled their way out of it.

But Avalanche got caught. and now we all hate them.

the13ug-
This is a fairly elementary argument - but my rebuttal is, "why bother playing if you look at it that way?"

Your contention is that everyone else cheats so why punish Avalanche because they got caught? I think if you even need to ask that question you have a serious moral quandary over there. Why bother having any rules at all if that is the way you look at it?

Maybe the pro level is only concerned with a points total and a sponsorship contract, but it would be nice to think that the NPPL made the best 5 or 10 man team win - not the team with the best "backwoods sniper".

As for blaming Avalanche, when was the last time you heard a coach say there is no "I" in team? Why is it when something is done right it is the "Team" but when something is done wrong it is the individual? Avalanche is responsible for the actions of its players and as such it should be banned from competition for a long time.

~Fred

[cphilip]

I personaly feel all the Avalance team and the those direct people on the team should be diss-associated with team play, NPPL Leadership and event involvment and from even sponsoring/playing on team for a year. Tis should be made an example of and REAL quick. End of my comments on it.

I saw way too much cheating this week. My stomach is just qweeezy from what I saw out there...And I had very little time to watch. I also saw one of the supposed professional ref's get arrested for stealing and angel and very many inexperienced refs and a basic disreguard and lack of knowledge for the rules and how to apply them as well. No reffing crew took charge early on.

Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.

I did not see much of these problems in the Collegiate X ball though. Refreshing! More later.

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by cphilip
Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.

I did not see much of these problems in the Collegiate X ball though. Refreshing! More later.

The underlying issue here is the money. These professionals make their money by being the best. To win at the World Cup means big money to these teams and it seems they will stop at nothing to get it. This is the reason you will see so much cheating at that level.

Rec ballers and Collegiate teams play for the love of the game, pros play it because it is a business. I only hope that my children never grow up to be professional babies.

~Fred

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by cphilip
Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.

I totally agree with this. Rec ball whatever keep your hands up. Most of the cussing, screaming, and near fights seem to happen over bonus balling.

I went to Supergame XXIV here in Oregon run by Dan Bonebrake (former Avalanche player and he appears to be a very stand up guy). Before we started playing he explained that his experience has shown that it is generally hard to get 100 people (big game) to all stop shooting at you immediately. So he explained the very common sense method of sticking up your hands and yelling hit multiple times until people half a field away recognize that you are out. Then he explained that sometimes you might be trying to get off the field and walk through a firefight. The people involved are not trying to shoot at you. They are shooting at other people on the field. Anyway the way he explained it people seemed to "get it". No cussing, no near fights, god I wish that every day of paintball was like that!!!!

[SlartyBartFast]

That the rules get pushed is of no surpise. But that someone ahd the gall to snipe from the woods is absolutely disgusting. Seems unlikely that others on the team didn't know what was going on though.

Well, I suppose we can grip all we want about the incident but what is it goig to change? The only way to have things in 'pro' paintball is to hit the organisers in the wallet.

That means bycotting the events and refusing to buy gear from the sponsers of cheating teams.

As for stopping cheating, you have to make the penalties really hurt. You also have to train the refs correctly and then allow them to do their job unhindered.

Seems to me steps have been taken to make reffing a propper occupation separate from playing. As the professional refferees gain experience the level of reffing and consistency of calls should improve.

I for one would love to ref. I'd be willing to pay for any training and courses/practice required, but I'm not going to volunteer my time to babysit others as they compete for money.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by thei3ug

The "sniper" incident happened at other events, and not by avalanche, but nothing was done.



I've been playing paintball for a while and I have NEVER heard of anything like this happeneding before. I have heard of cheating, but not to this ridiculous magnatude. If you have heard of this sort of thing happening then please reveal this information, and I mean names, teams, events, and dates, not just general allegations.

:confused:

I know that I seem to be coming off a little pugnacious about this, but it's bad enough that this has happened once. If this has happened before, it's beyond disgraceful.

Ogre

[aaron_mag]

Just curious about other tournaments.....

How are the PanAm Tournaments? Do people find that those are better? I've wanted to give one a try (when I find the time).

[cphilip]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Seems to me steps have been taken to make reffing a propper occupation separate from playing. As the professional refferees gain experience the level of reffing and consistency of calls should improve.

I for one would love to ref. I'd be willing to pay for any training and courses/practice required, but I'm not going to volunteer my time to babysit others as they compete for money.

Heard about it but didn't see any evidence of it. Good ones and bad ones were present.

Oh and before I forget...Thank you good ones!

I too tried to ref this event and put in some of my time learning and studying the rules and am unafilliated with any team and was waiting on a call from Bill Cookston and well...no call...and yet I still saw immature kids out there doign it for the $100 a day. So realy I see no real effort to follow through on that. Just an idea is all with no real teeth in it. I say forget the pay for a while and lets see who realy wants to do this job then!

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
...Seems to me steps have been taken to make reffing a propper occupation separate from playing. As the professional refferees gain experience the level of reffing and consistency of calls should improve.PRO, the Paintball Referree's Org. seems to be giving it only a half-hearted effort. I applied when the website went active long ago and could not get a response. On paper, it seems that I would be the perfect applicant: long-time paintball player (so I know which end of the marker the little round thing comes out); not affiliated with any team (so I do not know or care who the "stars" are); lawyer (so I can presumably understand the rules and remain impartial); and free to travel to one or more tournaments a year. I'm not saying that I am the perfect ref, but if they were really serious about fielding a good pool of officials, oughtn't they at least look at my application?

I think that paintball referreeing as a quasi-voluntary vocation is a long way from being a part of the paintball tournament scene. For now, the ranks of officials will be full of partial fans, tournament players from opposing/affiliated teams and apparent thieves.

Unfortunate.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ben_JD
...I applied when the website went active long ago and could not get a response. On paper, it seems that I would be the perfect applicant...

Same here Ben! and not much interest!!! Seemed to me it was a lot of "who you knows" out there sprinkled with a few "you and me's" that should have been out there. Just my take on it is they are not serious about disturbing the "good old boy" network already established. And I suspect its a matter of comfort level. the thinking is that I can call these few guys they will get soem guys to show up. I suspect "showing up" is the most important thing now rather than maturity and knowledge of the rules. Thats what I see anyway.

I think its few people getting a call something like "get me some warm bodies out there" so I can go onto something else...

[demonguy8]

Originally posted by cphilip
I did not see much of these problems in the Collegiate X ball though. Refreshing!

As it was explained to me just after our tournament (ISU's invite at Realms of Ruin), the college leauge doesnt have the same problems with cheating because it while the nppl appears to go by the saying "im still in till the ref sees it" while the college tournaments seem to go by the rule "see it or not, if your shooting with a hit you ARE PLAYING ON and YOUR TEAMATES ARE BEING PULLED". This puts quite a bit more responsibility on the player to check himself than for the ref to try and see every inch of two or more players.

imho this makes for MUCH cleaner play and is an example the nppl should take.. in this specific case however, I would make jeremy pay the entry + paint of the ENTIRE AVALANCHE TEAM for the game, in addition to a fine to be paid to the nppl, a fine to be paid to GZ, give the marker he used away as a door prize, and the penalties he is already facing (kicked from the team, one year ban)

-a VERY serious penalty for a VERY serious offense..

[Nick1Shot]

The Ultimate Ref should have a yellow flag like in the NFL. He can throw his flag for unsportsmanlike conduct. The problem I see right now and what separates paintball from other sports, is no respect for the officiating...at all. Something needs to be done so that Officials can gain that respect. They need to start taking care of business. If you get a flag for UC, then it could be assessed AFTER the game. Dock the team 15-25 points for getting in a ref's face, or inciting a fight with an opponent, or for not staying in the deadbox. Can you imagine how much that would change the outcame of these pro games if they lost points for cussing out a ref?

That's elementary.

Nick_OSPM

[rudy]

haha thats so funny, btw its a really stupid act which makes you think maybe he wanted to get caught, at any rate dont worry folks olympic almost all pro sports in america people are still cheating you just have to do what you can to stop it, although i dont know if anyones cheating is that stupid. right now its just mostly drug related cheating soon it will be gene therapy and what not.

[Troy]

To demonguy8: NPPL ref should be reffing the games just like you say the college refs do. I'm not saying they all do but that is the way they are supposed to ref it.

The problem in this game was a guy shooting from the woods. He wasn't playing on, or cussing a ref out.

As for the PRO reffs. Bill has limited funds to work with. It would be great if the entire NPPL was reffed by PRO. Don't you think the teams that ref would rather be playing. The NPPL seems to progress at a snails pace. They just came out of the woods last year.

[thei3ug]

Elementary? Summaries certainly are. It just seemed that people were so adamant about chastising Ed and the Avalanche crew without giving thought to the mentality that has arisen in professional and some amateur play. And that maybe, just maybe what they did isn't so outrageous and unheard of.

The sniper incident reminded me specifically of the incident involving Aftershock and the All A's in 1999, where a player appeared behind the All A's with their flag. There was one other incident where two players did hide with other jerseys and guns, and disposed of the evidence.

No one but me seems to think it was cheating when the All Americans went on the field with "turbo" in 1998 (a fancy word for "burst") markers without telling anyone. Not only that, they used their weight to allow them to continue to use it.

How about the skyball "deadbox" incident? OR when a player decided to bean a ref. Same player who tackled one earlier. He got fined.

Heck, Dynasty won last year only after they found a player on the opposing team playing on.

I picked the "high profile" ones. I could give you a ten page list of things the people you think are supposed to be honorable did.

Even the PRO refs have problems. So much stock is being put into how PRO needs to make more effort for an unbiased reffing system. Well what about the PRO ref that is being brought up on charges for trying to steal from a vendors booth? THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Not even an orange shirt is going to make you infalliable.

I am not here to say all Pros cheat, we should get over it. Or all Pros cheat, they suck. I play Am, and I know we have the same problems. But I do know that just because you're on a team that says they do not cheat doesn't mean they don't.

Case in point, Saberwolves at the 2001 National Indoors. A team that prides itself on fair play found a player, unbeknownst to them, playing on in a manner that could have affected who got into the finals. That player was canned. The saberwolves got the sportsmanship award (i think my team deserved it better, but oh well).

Cheating can take two routes. An institutional doctrine, either implied or specific, OR an individual choice. When I say all pro teams cheat, it isn't always a tactic. Sometimes a player will think it unjust that he got hit a certain way. No matter how the team feels about it, supportive or no, that team has just cheated, and the wholes team is penalized.

It is similar to the sociology of a company. Sometimes you are "forced" to cheat by pressure from above. Sometimes you're told. Sometimes you're not, but you know it's what they want you to do. But no matter what, we shouldn't single out Avalanche as a pariah in the pro world. If we do to avalanche what you all claim should be done, in retrospect it is unjust. And in the future it will be difficult for a team to keep players, and for teams to stay in the circut every year.

[shartley]

Great points.

Also folks must keep in mind that ALL sports have "cheating" to some degree, and most of it is not malicious.

The difference is that other sports have developed penalties that fit the offense. Also because of this, often times the "offense" is used as part of a winning strategy.... fouls, etc. I don't need to get into them all, but I think most understand what I am saying.

However, some "cheating" is above and beyond normal play. And when THAT happens, it is time to bring the hammer down. What happened this time was not even close to normal "cheating" due to game pressures or acceptable strategies. I think we all expect the pushing of rules to gain an advantage, or creative interpretation of rules for the same purpose.... again, this issue is something totally different.

Yes, all sports teams have players that cheat, or break the rules, it is how these things are handled that set the Sports and Levels of those Sports apart. And that does include Reffing, and overall organization of the sports/levels.

I too remember when the Paintball Reffing Org folks started up, and I decided to sit back and not comment (for once)... all the time thinking that it would fall flat on its face.... well, it hasn't even done that.... from what I have seen, it hasn't gotten high enough for "fall" anywhere.

It shouldn't be too darn hard.. heck, my Son's soccer games had "patched" Refs for crying out loud, and that was for JR High Games. It gives a good incentive to Ref correctly, and that leads to being PAID to do so. And if the Ref did not do their jobs correctly, you have a place to go and complain.... if warranted, they lose their "patch"... thus losing their "face" and ability to make money Reffing games.

And I have seen Teenagers on up, being "patched" Refs. As long as you attend the training, and pass all the tests, then do your JOB, you remain "patched". Pretty simple.

It would also lend credibility to events... do you have Patched Refs, or not? It would not eliminate NON-Patched reffing for smaller events, or normal play.... but would take care of a lot of the crap we now see at the larger events and tournaments.

[/ref talk]

Must stop for now... too busy....

[MagDog68]

thei3ug - I am seeing your point though I have to read between the lines to get it. You come off sounding a bit like you are excuse this cheating because of past offenses by other teams, but I don't think that's your point.

Regardless, I do think that someone needs to be made an example of - and this seems to be outrageous enough an incident for the NPPL to take a firm stand against cheating. Avalanche should loose something in this matter, that is the only way to show the other pros that cheating to this degree is not worth it. Simply forfieting a single event is not nearly severe enough. Whether this was an individual choice (which I highly doubt) or it was a team effort, the pros have to be held to a higher standard and should take the punishment as a team. If we say it was only Jeremy's fault then we give all teams the ability to scapegoat one member and play on as though nothing had happened.

Shartley is right in saying that we all have to accept some forms of dishonesty in Pro sports...I can live with someone that wipes, but a non-player shooting into a professional event and scoring points for his team is ridiculous. The line must be drawn somewhere and a simple slap on the wrist is not going to cut it.

The NPPL is really to blame for this; they let so much crap get away for so long that there really aren't any penalties pros are afraid of. Serious suspensions and in this case I would say banishment is the best way to scare the pros into playing straight.

~Fred

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.


THIS is the main thing that keeps me from wanting anything to do with "major" tournaments. There are other personal factors, but even without them this would keep me away. It's just amazing to me how far we have regressed. The NPPL was formed because "they" didn't like the way Lively ran his tournaments. What a HUGE mistake, IMO (I'm never humble).

[hitech]

Originally posted by Nick1Shot
Can you imagine how much that would change the outcame of these pro games if they lost points for cussing out a ref?

Yes I can. When I reffed in Lively's tournaments that WAS the case. And I can tell you it is real easy to end that kind of behavior with a "one more xxx and you're going to be penalized". Doesn't make you popular, but it does keep things under control.

[benzy2]

i absolutley dont condone this but think of other sports.
Baseball gives you three strikes.
Football gives you a 5-10 yard penelty.
basket ball gives you fouls.
hockey-my god you can beat a man for a 5 minute max penalty.
we have so harsh rules as is for breaking rules. It is no fun to always play fair. No other mainstream sport plays with no minor penelties. We need to let little things be a part of the game and give them a slight disadvantage. Otherwise you have people getting so frustrated with having to play perfect that they cheat so bad. Its like telling a little kid to never touch the button. So he does it. If you say you can touch it a few times and each time lose a little candy he does it less and less. The harder i push down on the players the harder the players push back.
just my $.02. I know most of you hate the whole cheating thing but we need to embrace it as it doesnt go away. But it can be reduced.

[LittMag]

benzy2- I completely disagree with you on your points, you cannot compare paintball to most sports. The analogies cannot be stretched.
In no other sport can you hide or take away a hit like wiping in paintball... a baseball player cannot hide a ball in his glove, then jump for a homerun and pretend he caught it.

Penalties for other sports are for conduct, for say shooting hot or for knocking over a bunker and so forth.

In no other sport can you cuss out a ref. You should be ejected, and you are with any other sport.


I know most of you hate the whole cheating thing but we need to embrace it as it doesnt go away. But it can be reduced.
We should NOT embrace cheating. It should NOT be tolerated. It will not completely go away, but it should NOT be tolerated at all.

[Lone Brain Cell]

benzy2...Just what planet are you on???
The guy just didnt cheat a little, This was the worst case of blatant, premeditated cheating. not just an infrigement on the rules for a hand ball or forward pass that they could get a 5-10 yard penalty as a result. They sent another player into the bush to just in case they were loseing he could shoot into the feild and take out some opposition!

The guy (And possibly the team) should be banned for life!

[Trunnion]

paintball DOES have minor penalties for minor infractions. playing on with an obvious hit is a one-for-one penalty as described in section 12.4 Assessment of Penalties in the NPPL rules. this section also states that wiping, which is rather rampant, calls for a three for one penalty, the ref not only pulling the offender but also three of his teammates. Salm's infraction falls far outside the 'normal' realm of paintball rule violations into something that is not mentioned in the rules but is obviously wrong. you could possibly make a stretch and include salm in 12.31 as a spectator with a gun, but there are no definied penalties for such. regardless, his actions required a severe penalty, and while i don't feel it was severe enough, it was certainly beyond the normal scope of paintball penalties. cheating is still cheating, it should not be embraced or accepted just because it's common place. would you go so far as to say killing russian civillians is ok because the germans did it so often during WWII? i don't think so. get a clue, cheating should never be condoned.

[rudy]

benzy not only are you totaly wrong as to what others have said but also in your line of thought. ok minor rules are not there because they want people to be able to cheat and make the game more interesting they are there cause. A) a call can be wrong and you dont want to end a carreer or cost a team a game on a wrong call. or B) cause the cheat or infraction does is not great enough to effect the outcome of a game. or C) because it is a balence to make reffing and rule fowllowing easier. what salm did does not fit into any category however his team does fit onto one we dont knwo for cirtain they were involved.they caught him red handed no mistake and it entirely effected the outcome of the game. so it deserves a harsh penalty.

[Trigger_Happy]

I don't know where to draw the line. The whole team for life? The whole team for ___ years? Salm had better get life!!!! The team had to have known! If they didn't, then Salm loses 1,000 more points for jepordizing thier careers without thier knowledge.

All I know is that this kind of thing disgusts me! It makes me want to spit in someone's face! Cheating always goes on in the upper levels, and that is bad, but potshots from the woods pegging the opposition in th back...I just can't believe it happened! I just wish that nothing worse than this will ever happen to the sport, but it will. If a SERIOUS example is not made, players will stoop lower and lower and I will become less shocked when they do.

I just can't believe this happened. *gag*

[Trigger_Happy]

Benzy-Baseball, football, etc. give minor penalties for minor offences. In paintball, points are subtracted for minor offences. THIS IS A BIG DEAL! A football player who knifes his opposition to death doesn't get a 10 yard penalty!

We can't let Salm get away with knifing by giving him a 10 yard penalty, or other players will take up the tactic as a satisfactory means to an end.

You say we must embrace cheating because it will always be with us, but that that is like legalizing crackhouses instead of raiding them because "there is always going to be some".

Does what I'm saying make sense to you? I want more of your opinion. Thanks!

[Timmee]

I think it's funny that a lot of people say "Oh, the whole team had to have known". Why? Isn't it possible that Salm had this planned out? From what I've read, he left about an hour before the game in question and supposedly went back to the hotel. How far from the hotel was the field in question? If it was relatively close, he could have had plenty of time to go to the hotel, change, and get back.

It was also asked why Ed had his gear with him. Is it possible that he brought his gear in the hopes of one of the members of Avalanche NEEDING a break? Couldn't he have used Salm's gear for the game?

I wasn't there, and I don't have all the facts, therefore I won't make any statements about stuff I don't know about. However, I do think that even if the NPPL doesn't give Salm a bigger suspension or ban, his career in the NPPL (and probably every other major series) is over.

[shartley]

Originally posted by benzy2
i absolutley dont condone this but think of other sports.
Baseball gives you three strikes.
Football gives you a 5-10 yard penelty.
basket ball gives you fouls.
hockey-my god you can beat a man for a 5 minute max penalty.
This is too funny....

Not only does this mix penalties with basic RULES of the sport, but it is just silly comparing it to what has been happening. A strike in Baseball is not a penalty for breaking a rule. It is a part of the game process. Same with foul balls. And you can extend that to “balls” vs “strikes”. They are not penalties for rule breading, but a mandated Rule of play.

Then to compare it to Penalties in Football? Come on, now those ARE penalties.

And as for hockey… that is a physical sport to begin with. It is a fast pased sport that demands strength, and drives on adrenaline… I am not condoning the amount of violence seen in Hockey, but I CAN understand how it can happen.

I suppose you would like to bring in other sports? How about Boxing? You can get penalized for using your elbows, head butting, or low blows. Now want to make a comparison directly to Paintball and what happened with “sniping” from the wood line? Mike Tyson biting off Holyfield’s ear. Now THAT would be a good comparison. And the penalty should be the same (except they should NEVER let him play again in Pro Play… Period! What is happening with Tyson is a joke.. but I had to expect it. It has not been the first time a Boxer was banned from Pro Fights only to let him do so again.).

But, as I stated, some of your Rules were not to prevent “cheating” or anything close to it… they are part of the game.

[oldsoldier]

You know, regardless of whether or not the team knew about it, the team deserves the penalty. As a captain, hell as the OWNER and COAch, or whatever, Ed is responsible for his peoples actions. Period. Regardless of whether he knows of them or not.
For instnace, me, being in the military, am responsible for my men. They can be home on leave, a thousand miles away. They get arrested for something. Guess what? I suffer too. Granted, I dont get the penalties associated with an arrest, but the mere fact that one of my soldiers did something to compromise a certain standard, and me being responsible for him, due to my position as a leader, I receive repremands and repercussions as well. I cant throw my hands in the air and say "hey, its not my fault the kid is a screw up". It IS my fault. He should know better. He is an adult, capable of making rational decisions. I see this as the same situation. Ed needs to accept responsibility for what happened. Jeremy will never play pro again. I think if he does, a lot of companies will suffer. Ed and his team need to be penalized; either monetarily, or removed from the circuit for a period of time. That is the ONLY way other teams will not think about doing this.
Look at it this way; if Salm is the only guy to go down for this, and, if in fact this wasnt the only team he did this too, dont you think that another pro team will send someone out to do the same thing, hoping they dont get caught, but, if they do, they can deny any knowledge of it, and not risk losing sponsorship and/or money? I think a lot of pro teams may take thatchance, if they think they can get away with it.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by benzy2
i absolutley dont condone this but think of other sports.
Baseball gives you three strikes.
Football gives you a 5-10 yard penelty.
basket ball gives you fouls.
hockey-my god you can beat a man for a 5 minute max penalty.


Apples to apples man! How can you compare these?

In football, a major penalty yields you an ejection and suspension. Ask Dexter Manley, banned for life!

In Baseball, they believe in integrity and will ban a player. Ask Pete Rose!

Hockey, well that really isn't a major league sport;) :p . Ask Ty Dome (sp?), he was banned for a while for his assault in Canada last year.

Basketball will enforce suspensions and punish cheaters. Ask the Minnesota Timberwolves what happens when a team tries to cheat, major fines and loss of draft picks. Ask Latrell Sprewell about going to far, lost lots of money and banned for the rest of a season.

So please apples to apples and oranges to oranges

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by oldsoldier
For instnace, me, being in the military, am responsible for my men.

This is totally true. They say it is lonely at the top. That is because no one lets you get away with the excuse, "its not my fault. I didn't know." That is the slogan for people who don't want to grow up.

Speaking of growing up some of these stories disturb me. I play paintball because I "feel like a kid playing cops and robbers". I love that feeling. Still the analogy can only go so far. Stories about an adult bonus balling someone because that player had eliminated them in a previous match?

This goes beyond that youthful feeling. That is just juvenile.

[hitech]

Originally posted by benzy2
We have so harsh rules (penalties) as is for breaking rules...No other mainstream sport plays with no minor penalties.

One of the problems with having too severe a penalty is that it rarely is "awarded". The penalty needs to be severe enough to discourage the infraction, small enough that it is "awarded" EVERY time the infraction is committed.

BTW, it is my understanding that Salm worked for Ed and has now lost his job. That is probably a more severe punishment than any sort of ban.

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech
BTW, it is my understanding that Salm worked for Ed and has now lost his job. That is probably a more severe punishment than any sort of ban.
Interesting.... what exactly did he do for Ed? Was it related to WC? Was it related to the Team? If not, it brings up some interesting legal issues......

[hitech]

I don't know the format of the event, but would it have been possible to eject the team from the torunament and "void" of the games they played?

If so, that should have happened.

[Load SM5]

I'm pretty sure thats exactly what happened.

[manike]

I'm gutted by a lot of this as I class Jeremy and all of Avalanche as friends, but not overly suprised knowing what some teams will do to win... :(


Originally posted by shartley
Interesting.... what exactly did he do for Ed? Was it related to WC? Was it related to the Team? If not, it brings up some interesting legal issues......

Jeremy 'used' to work for Warped Sports I'm not sure in exactly what capacity but at quite a high level. I think he may have run one of their store branches?

I expect the contract would have a clause about bringing the company into disrepute which allowed Ed to fire him under such conditions.

I know of a lot more rumours about this also, but see it as little good to help spread them if there is no validation to them, which under the circumstances there can not be.

I hope Avalanche recover from this as they are quite a group of guys who I am priveleged to have spent time with. I know this will have gutted a lot of them.

manike

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley

Interesting.... what exactly did he do for Ed? Was it related to WC? Was it related to the Team? If not, it brings up some interesting legal issues......

I don't know. I was talking to Dennis at Centerflag and he told the that Salm worked for Ed and had just moved "down there". He told me he let him go. You could always call Dennis at Centerflag. He seems to love to talk paintball, esp with us "old timers". At least he did with me. ;)

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Trigger_Happy
A football player who knifes his opposition to death doesn't get a 10 yard penalty!


Nope...he gets off without a hitch and they make him MVP if I remember correctly....:D

[banzaimf]

Apparently. Wicked Sports will not be producing a Dark Matrix. And I commend Ed for even replying to an email asking for one.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


Nope...he gets off without a hitch and they make him MVP if I remember correctly....:D

Ray Lewis was never accused of stabbing anyone. He pled guilty to Obstruction of Justice charges. He was also suspended and fined by the league.

Rae Carruth on the other hand was caught and will never see daylight again!

Salm was caught red handed too. I think the death penalty for this infraction is just a tad bit severe.

Apples to apples....:p

[benzy2]

ok for the guy who told me people dont cuss in other sports. Have you ever sat by a football coach, baseball coach, or a coach in any other sport where a ref/ump has the ability to make a judgement call. Pro baseball players tell the refs everyword in the book. football coaches tell the refs they are ******* dumb***** that have no ******* brain. I mean dont think they dont. Also what does shooting paint and stabbing have to do with anything. i mean in football if you have a 12th man run out and sack the qb you get a penelty. That player may be kicked out of one game. Yes in baseball pitchers cheat by putting different things on the ball like vasoline. They get tossed for that game. Basketball players throw elbows that give concussions. I think a little brain damage is worse then a welt in the back. I mean if you people think getting shot in the back in one game deserves a life time ban you are out in lalaland. Pro football players can abuse their wives, assult other men, get cuaght with tons of drugs and just pay a fine and sometimes get kicked off a team till next year. These are criminal actions that get less punishment then you are suggesting. I think the guy is an *** but the people who ran the event should have seen the possibility for someone to do that. When i looked at the aerial shoot i thought it would be fun to camp in the woods while games where playing.
on the cheating part it happens to every sport. It hasnt been removed in football, hockey, baseball. Oh yeah how many of those bats are drilled and filled with weights. I think it might have been cal ripkin(i dont remember but it was someone i respected) that broke a bat and marbles went everywhere. They tossed him for that game and he payed a slight fine and was right back the next game. Baseball players can have a hughe bench clearing fight and they will be suspended for 2-15 game. not life. Pete rose did get kicked out for good. But that is the only guy i know of.

rudy does a early rush of a feildgoal kicker that breaks his leg not have an impact on the game. Or the time where the late hit puts the qb out of the game. or the clipping that pulls a muscle in the best freesafety in the league. all of thes get you a 15 yard penelty max but change the outcome of the game. also why does anyone cheat. Pure and simple to win. A guy doesnt cheat to do worse. It is to win. So his cheating does have reason. To win.

I liked the mike Tyson analogy. I mean that guy intentionally took part of an ear off and now he goes to fight in england. This guy didnt do anything that someone in the dead box couldnt do. I just dont think his actions were bad enough to ban him for life. it was 50 shots maybe. Not like we all havent had 50 extra hits from overfire in our entire carrers. He should be punished and he should face fines and probationary messures. He didnt injure anyone. he did less in his action physically then a lineman does in one play.
Know if i was to play him i would put a few extra in the air just to get the point accross that i wont put up with it when i am playing. In nascar if you put everyone into the wal the group will eventually put you into the wall. it is just a matter as to how long it will take.

[50 cal]

There will always be cheaters in any sport. Some get caught, some don't. Paintball is the worst place to find the cheats, the action is so fast and there isn't enough refs.
Will we need boundary refs now? Will the tournament directors be willing to pay some schmoe to sit on the outside boundaries to monitor them? I don't think so. Most tourny directors use the reffs very sparingly, it seems they only have them to say "We have refs." They wouldn't use them at all if they didn't have to.
Paintball is all about protecting what's yours. Forget the other guys, just as long as I get my slice and I can screw the other guy out of his. That is the main reason I don't do tournament ball anymore. If your team can whine enough, or throw their, what they think, is the weight of their status as manufacturers or distributors around to get their way, they will do it. Tournament ball is truly pathetic anymore.

Just sign me,

Playing rec ball and loving it!

[Timmee]

I think one thing a promoter can do to prevent this exact type of cheating again is to FULLY enclose the fields. I also agree that the promoters should put into place a tougher penalty system to prevent cheating. One idea is to issue penalty points for cheating. Once a team has accrued a certain amount of penalty points, they get penalized (maybe force the team to play one game without a full roster). Once a team has been penalized, for every other penalty point they accrue, they get one less player on the field for the next game. The number of penalty points allowed before a team is penalized should be low, maybe 3.

Anyway, this is one possible suggestion to reduce the cheating in pro paintball. Feel free to poke holes in my idea, add your own, or make comments.

[Rooster]

Forget points, if someone on your roster gets caught cheating that guy gets an automatic life ban, and the team gets a one year ban. Second offence the team is gone for good. That goes for any cheating caught on the field.


That would solve the problem real fast.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Rooster
Forget points, if someone on your roster gets caught cheating that guy gets an automatic life ban, and the team gets a one year ban. Second offence the team is gone for good. That goes for any cheating caught on the field.


That would solve the problem real fast.

The only "problem" that type of knee-jerk reaction would "solve" is the death of the entire tourny circuit. Teams will still cheat, and with penalties like that, teams will disappear as fast as they appear.

All will agree that what Salm did is attrocious. It is, to the best of my knowledge, the worst known case of cheating in tounry ball. But should the penalty be so severe as to ruin, not only one career, but the careers of all the members of Avalanche? That is something we should all consider before we scream to the heavens for the ignomious demise of Salm and Avalanche.

I have an interesting team penalty. Why not force Avalanche to play minus one or more men for the next X number of NPPL tounries they enter? It's akin to hokey penalties, so there is a precedant in organized sport. It's severe, severly handicapping cheating teams, but it allows those teams to continue competing.

What do you think?

Ogre

[rikkter]

timmee. basically like the xball rules.

trigger happy.
knifing up someone. and shooting them w ith a paintball gun is no where even close to being the same.
knifing oppenent isn't cheating in anyway.
what that guy did was cheating.
hes screwed out of paintball. no team will pick him up, no rookie team no amaerture (ah spelling)
hes pretty much screwed. he'll most likely never will be seen in nppl again.

what more do you guys want them to do??

[Rooster]

Teams will still cheat, and with penalties like that, teams will disappear as fast as they appear.

All will agree that what Salm did is attrocious. It is, to the best of my knowledge, the worst known case of cheating in tounry ball. But should the penalty be so severe as to ruin, not only one career, but the careers of all the members of Avalanche? That is something we should all consider before we scream to the heavens for the ignomious demise of Salm and Avalanche.

I have an interesting team penalty. Why not force Avalanche to play minus one or more men for the next X number of NPPL tounries they enter? It's akin to hokey penalties, so there is a precedant in organized sport. It's severe, severly handicapping cheating teams, but it allows those teams to continue competing.

What do you think?


If all pro teams cheat, then there should be no pro teams. Its really that simple. Or everyone should resign themselves to the fact that paintball is nothing but cheaters game of laser tag.

[manike]

Originally posted by Rooster
If all pro teams cheat, then there should be no pro teams. Its really that simple. Or everyone should resign themselves to the fact that paintball is nothing but cheaters game of laser tag.

It's not just pro's that cheat, and it's not just tourny players that cheat. Cheating happens anywhere that there are not enough good referees to control it.

Up until the World Cup, I honestly believed the most cheating of playing on and wiping happens at big games and rec events. World Cup with poor reffing had a huge issue with cheating through all ranks.

It's just that people are more likely to see cheats at tournaments and people care more about cheats at tournaments where there are financial rewards etc. There is a huge issue of cheating within paintball. Period.

manike

[Devil]

I think it is horrible that Avalanche or just the one player

("We, Team Avalanche, would like to apologize to our sponsors and our fans for the actions of one individual, who is no longer on our team. Although, as a team we take full responsibility, we would like everyone to understand that we were unaware of what had transpired until after the fact. Also, we would like to state that the decision made by the rules committee was the correct one.")

would stoop to such levels...but there is ALOT of "favoritism" and "cheating" in paintball...I have tourney videos that me and moose watch and there is one where the refs made so many bad calls and favored the one team that it was sickening...even a mere child could have seen how dirty it was...but the game went on...

If this sport is going to be taken seriously we need to do as AGD said in his thoughts about the whole thing! I mean...are we playing this game because there can be alot of cool prizes...or is it because when all we had was the pumps and then the "wal-mart" markers...that maybe we really loved the game. When we were younger and playing woods in the back of your best friends house...was it for the free "sea-doo" and the $$1,000,000,000,000...or was it because it felt good to get out there with your marker and prove your worth!
Just because we have awesome mags and all the other expensive markers now, and we play with various different types of people, and on teams...doesn't mean that we should forget how fun it is to get that adrenaline rush when you hear "gogogogogo!"
If you are bored with the game...GET OFF THE FIELD SO I CAN TAKE YOUR PLACE...if you don't get off the field and I catch you dishonoring the sport...I WILL REMOVE YOU FROM THE FIELD! (Just a message to anyone out there that cheats!)
Let's just have fun! (SC:AO YEA!)

(just my thoughts on the matter)

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by manike
Up until the World Cup, I honestly believed the most cheating of playing on and wiping happens at big games and rec events. World Cup with poor reffing had a huge issue with cheating through all ranks.


Much as I hate to admit it I've seen this happen. I was at one big game where we pushed the other team all the way back to their base. It was a long walk back to our reincarnation point and when I got there the ref explained that I was the only eliminated player he had seen in like half an hour. I mean come on! No wonder we pushed them all the way back to their base. Either I suck (which is entirely possible) or I was on a REALLY good team.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Ray Lewis was never accused of stabbing anyone. He pled guilty to Obstruction of Justice charges. He was also suspended and fined by the league.

Apples to apples....:p

It was intended as a joke.

Correction he was charged with murder and felony assault. He wasn't convicted of murder. He plead guilty to a minor misdemeanor in exchange for testifying against the two other people charged as well. If the prosecution weren't the most inept, worthless, good for nothing, pieces of crap lawyers little Ray "Stabby McStab" Lewis would've been convicted. ;)

[Rooster]

It's not just pro's that cheat, and it's not just tourny players that cheat. Cheating happens anywhere that there are not enough good referees to control it.

Up until the World Cup, I honestly believed the most cheating of playing on and wiping happens at big games and rec events. World Cup with poor reffing had a huge issue with cheating through all ranks.

It's just that people are more likely to see cheats at tournaments and people care more about cheats at tournaments where there are financial rewards etc. There is a huge issue of cheating within paintball. Period.


Thats the trouble, cheating happens from the top down. And stopping it works the same way. I'm sure kids have cheated at flag football. Does that means the NFL should turn a blind eye to cheating? Until the top is fixed, who can expect the rest to follow?

[Timmee]

Originally posted by Rooster



Thats the trouble, cheating happens from the top down. And stopping it works the same way. I'm sure kids have cheated at flag football. Does that means the NFL should turn a blind eye to cheating? Until the top is fixed, who can expect the rest to follow?

I don't think that cheating happens from the top down. I think it's more along the lines of the win at all costs mentality. I've seen that mentality at rec ball games far too often. Also, some rec players (myslef included) don't really care what the pro's do. It doesn't affect my playing style or ethics if pro player X wipes a hit, or if pro player Y plays on. How would banning a tourney team from the NPPL (or any other big series) change how rec player A behaves on the field?

[Rooster]

Honestly it can't. Kids will still cheat at flag football. Rec players will still cheat at paintball. But it will no longer be accepted as part of the game. If cheaters cheat to win at any cost, then the cost better be huge.

[MagMonster]

HAHA thats the funniest article ive read ever.... I guess just because your pro doenst mean your smart. Your just good at paintball. wonder what kind of gun he was using?

[Trunnion]

did you bother to actually read this thread, or just reply to it?

[billmi]

Originally posted by sygyzy
And they think paintball is ready for the Olympics. HA!

Haha! Yeah, 'cause there's never been an Olympic scandal like a skater having the knees of another skater beaten, and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone caught cheating in an olympic event and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone who got their medal taken away in the Olympics for failing a drug test at an olympic event and....
Oh, waith there has.

Haha! Yeah, there's never been a scandal about judges "fixing" a figure skating score in the olympics and...
Oh, waith there has.

What was your point again?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by cphilip
I also saw one of the supposed professional ref's get arrested for stealing and angel

I'm not sure what you saw or what you thought you saw, or what you supposed about what you though you saw, or who you supposed to be professional when you saw what you though you saw under the supposition that you were seeing it but....

Typically when people say "professional refs" they are referring to refs that are a part of P.R.O., the Paintball Referee Organization. At World Cup, some of the refs were hired (I guess you could argue that any ref that gets paid is "professional") from teams, some were hired from P.R.O., and some were local Orlando area player's that were hired.

At the World Cup, there was a local Orlando area player hired as a ref who was arrested for stealing an Angel from WDP. Additionally, he was accused of stealing a P.R.O. jersey. He was being evaluated for the P.R.O. program, but he was not a P.R.O. ref. Needless to say, after his performance and arrest during evaluation, he will not become a P.R.O. ref, either.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by ogre55


I've been playing paintball for a while and I have NEVER heard of anything like this happeneding before. I have heard of cheating, but not to this ridiculous magnatude.

In this incident, players were eliminated from the game through cheating.

While the method seemed pretty outlandish, is the effect on the game much different than:

*A player wiping off a hit so that they stay in the game.
*A player spinning - that is shooting another player out of the game after they are hit and therefore eliminated.
*A player shooting from the dead box, taking out a player from the opposing team.
Etc.
*A player using "cheater" modes to give them a firepower advantage over the opposing team.

The "sniping from the woods" incident is hardly different in its effect on the game than other forms of cheating that happen all the time in tournament, walk on, scenario, big game, pump, and semi-auto paintball games.

That's not to say that the other forms of cheating are OK, they're not. My point is it's pretty rediculous for people to get all in a huff over this one incident and ignore, or play down the seriousness of the others.

The factor of cheating's importance is that the outcome of the game was affected by the cheating - not how unusual, outlandish, or brazen the method of the cheating may have been.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Rooster]

Haha! Yeah, 'cause there's never been an Olympic scandal like a skater having the knees of another skater beaten, and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone caught cheating in an olympic event and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone who got their medal taken away in the Olympics for failing a drug test at an olympic event and....
Oh, waith there has.

Haha! Yeah, there's never been a scandal about judges "fixing" a figure skating score in the olympics and...
Oh, waith there has.

What was your point again?


What happened to all of those people? I'd say a few of them got more than a one year ban from their sport. People will always try to cheat in whatever sport they are a part of. The degree that they succeed is detirmined by the organization's tolerance for cheating. Paintball has a very high tolerance for cheaters.

[billmi]

Originally posted by cphilip Re: the choice of PRO refs


Same here Ben! and not much interest!!! Seemed to me it was a lot of "who you knows" out there sprinkled with a few "you and me's" that should have been out there. Just my take on it is they are not serious about disturbing the "good old boy" network already established. And I suspect its a matter of comfort level. the thinking is that I can call these few guys they will get soem guys to show up. I suspect "showing up" is the most important thing now rather than maturity and knowledge of the rules. Thats what I see anyway.

I think its few people getting a call something like "get me some warm bodies out there" so I can go onto something else...

I'm sure, both you and Ben having seriously pursued becoming a PRO Ref, have already had discussions with Bill Cookston about why different people were hired or not hired for reffing World Cup.

That being the case you would know that the refs are hired by the event promoters (in the case of World Cup, PSP).

One of the major factors considered by P.R.O. in finding their P.R.O. refs is geography. They don't tend to chase down people whom they can't afford to fly in to a location to ref, and to be trained, or observed while reffing. Now, I'm sure someone willing to foot their own travel bill, after having a discussion with Bill Cookston about that fact, would probably be in a different position.

That is one of the factors that limited the P.R.O. refs available for World Cup, and why there were independant locally hired refs, as well as team refs refereeing the games in addition to the P.R.O. refs.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by hitech

BTW, it is my understanding that Salm worked for Ed and has now lost his job. That is probably a more severe punishment than any sort of ban.

That's minor...
Lee Harvey Oswald was disposed of more permanently than just losing his job at the Book Depository after the three votes that elected LBJ to the presidency were supposedly cast by him, and him alone.

[RetroEclipseMan]

I agree that cheating should not be tolerated at all. But in reality there are cheaters in every sport no matter what level it is at. Just look at the players in pro baseball getting caught corking there bats, I don't think that players at lowere levels are now going to go out and cork their bats now. I know that what a pro paintball player doesn't affect how I play or view the game. Sure you may hear about pro players cheating more but I think that's just because the stakes are higher and there's more coverage. I mean I play a lot of rec ball as well and I see players wipe hit after hit off themselves and then complain about getting overshot when you put 10 balls on ther back to make sure they don't wipe.

As far as what happens to the rest of Avalanche i just don't think that if the team is broken up that it's going to make a big impact on the sport. Cheating will still happen and unless a new way to stop is put in place then it will continue to go on. Not to mention there is no hard proof that the anyone else on the team had any knowlege of what Salm was doing. Sure it is hard to believe that at least someone else didn't know but suspending the whole team just is not the right thing to do and just won't send that big of message to other players. Maybe stiffer rules for cheating should be put in place like if anyone is caught wiping then the team forfits the points for that game rather than a 1for1 or what not.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by RetroEclipseMan
Just look at the players in pro baseball getting caught corking there bats, I don't think that players at lowere levels are now going to go out and cork their bats now.

Really? Then I guess you missed the Little League World Series Scandal last year, when a player in the Bronx, NY team was found to have had his birth certificate changed to make him younger and allow him to participate.

When there are pros in a sport, there are others that will look up to them. When those that look up to the pros see said pros acting like, well you know (damn filters) :D, they will seek to emulate their heros.

I don't know how much cheating there is in pro baseball, but I know that many pro ball players make a habit of acting less than sportmanlike, both on and off the field. I have seen guys playing softball pick up games act just as bad on the field. And little league games where parents and kids act like those same pro players.

When people see pros do everything in their power to win, some tend to adopt the same attitudes. Look at it this way. I am a young player. I have dreams of making it big. I see many pros cheating and making it big. I begin associating making it big with cheating. I cheat.

Makes a strange sort of sense doesn't it?

Ogre

[ogre55]

Originally posted by billmi
[B]
My point is it's pretty rediculous for people to get all in a huff over this one incident and ignore, or play down the seriousness of the others.


I don't think that anyone is playing down other incidents of cheating, or elevating this one because the perpetrator was caught. What gets my goat is the blatant method used to cheat. There is a difference between wiping, shooting from the deadbox etc., and dressing up in black pajamas, hiding out the woods and shooting the opposing team in the back.

I liken it to the difference of corking a bat and druging the opposing teams water. Both methods will result in your team scoring more points, but the method used in one, is much more flagrant than the method used in the other.

Ogre

[Kneedragger]

Originally posted by RetroEclipseMan
I agree that cheating should not be tolerated at all. But in reality there are cheaters in every sport no matter what level it is at. Just look at the players in pro baseball getting caught corking there bats, I don't think that players at lowere levels are now going to go out and cork their bats now.

I don't think there's much chance of corking an aluminum bat. :D

[Kneedragger]

Let's see. What's the biggest difference between pro paintball and say pro football. In pro football, you don't have the Eagles reffing in a game between the Cowboy's and the Redskin's.

You can point fingers and slam players all you want. It comes down to the fact, that players cheat, because they can. As long as the benifits of cheating outweigh the consequences, it will continue to happen. The reason people take it so hard in paintball is because cheating in paintball has never been dealt with the way cheating in other sports is. All it takes is a group of refs that take the rule book, and enforce it to the letter. It's pretty simple, but actually initiating it is the hard part. We've done it the wrong way for so long, people just come to accept it. You always hear how paintball can't afford to pay professional refs a salary and traveling money. Well then, since all the teams can seem to travel to tournaments, why not just have the tournaments in the same place every time and train a reffing staf of people that live where the tournaments are held. Think about it, what's the point of traveling to Chicago, Orlando, Atlantic City, and Vegas anymore? It's pretty much all airball so why do you need to go to different places just to play on an air ball field?

The referees in other sports have a set of rules/guidelines they go by. They don't choose which ones they want to enforce, and then turn around and disregard the ones they don't want to.

For instance in football, pass interference- automatic first down and the ball is spotted at the point of the infraction. The ref doesn't have the choice to say give the the team that was interfered a first down but have to play the next down at the original line of scrimmage.

In a NPPL tournanment, have any of you ever seen a 2 for 1 pulled? That is for playing on with an OBVIOUS hit. Obvious hits are defined in the rule book. I see players play on all the time with an obvious hit, yet almost always, the refs at the most pull a 1 for 1. So instead of adhereing to the rules, the ref has decided to circumvent the written rule and enforce a penalty of his own choosing. Until even the most basic issues of reffing are addressed, tournament paintball will be nothing more then a joke when compared to real competitive sports.

[SlartyBartFast]

With all the prizes and money it seems it's a sham to say that good refs can't be paid properly.

Professional paintball has simply decided that they are more interested in money and prizes than they are about the game.

Want the refs to do their job properly? Give them incentives for finding cheaters that outweighs having to put up with some over paid spoilt brat exploding in their face.

Make bad calls hurt the ref if overturned by the Ultimate Judge.

[Kneedragger]

Incentives could open up a whole new can of worms. Just handle refs the way every other sport does. You are hired to do a job, if you are incapable of performing that job to a standard, then you get fired. Accountability is all you need.

[RetroEclipseMan]

Originally posted by Kneedragger
Let's see. What's the biggest difference between pro paintball and say pro football. In pro football, you don't have the Eagles reffing in a game between the Cowboy's and the Redskin's.

You can point fingers and slam players all you want. It comes down to the fact, that players cheat, because they can. As long as the benifits of cheating outweigh the consequences, it will continue to happen. The reason people take it so hard in paintball is because cheating in paintball has never been dealt with the way cheating in other sports is. All it takes is a group of refs that take the rule book, and enforce it to the letter. It's pretty simple, but actually initiating it is the hard part. We've done it the wrong way for so long, people just come to accept it. You always hear how paintball can't afford to pay professional refs a salary and traveling money. Well then, since all the teams can seem to travel to tournaments, why not just have the tournaments in the same place every time and train a reffing staf of people that live where the tournaments are held. Think about it, what's the point of traveling to Chicago, Orlando, Atlantic City, and Vegas anymore? It's pretty much all airball so why do you need to go to different places just to play on an air ball field?

The referees in other sports have a set of rules/guidelines they go by. They don't choose which ones they want to enforce, and then turn around and disregard the ones they don't want to.

For instance in football, pass interference- automatic first down and the ball is spotted at the point of the infraction. The ref doesn't have the choice to say give the the team that was interfered a first down but have to play the next down at the original line of scrimmage.

In a NPPL tournanment, have any of you ever seen a 2 for 1 pulled? That is for playing on with an OBVIOUS hit. Obvious hits are defined in the rule book. I see players play on all the time with an obvious hit, yet almost always, the refs at the most pull a 1 for 1. So instead of adhereing to the rules, the ref has decided to circumvent the written rule and enforce a penalty of his own choosing. Until even the most basic issues of reffing are addressed, tournament paintball will be nothing more then a joke when compared to real competitive sports.

I totally agree. I think that if the rules aren't enforced all the time the way they are written then there's no point at having them at all. It's like setting a candybar infront of a little kid and telling him he cant have it but not punishing him if he does take it. If a player knows he/she can get away with wiping a hit or playing with an obvious hit then what is stopping them from doing it. I know if a ref wasn't going to pull me for playing with an obvious hit then I would continue to do it.

[dcmander]

Anyone have a link to a webpage that has all the NPPL rules so I can know what a 1 for 1 and a 2 for 1 is :)

Someone could also explain those two terms for me right here... :)

[billmi]

Originally posted by dcmander
Anyone have a link to a webpage that has all the NPPL rules so I can know what a 1 for 1 and a 2 for 1 is :)

Someone could also explain those two terms for me right here... :)

Paintballrefs.com

A 1 for 1, 2 for 1, and 3 for 1, are penalty pulls.

It's the number of players pulled for the infraction. If you commit an offense that is a one for one penalty, one player from your team gets eliminated.

The NPPL sent to these type of penalties instead of points penalties so that when the game is over, the score is final, instead of like it used to be where it would look like one team won, then they'd asess some penalties while filling out the score sheet, then the other team would win.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


It was intended as a joke.

Correction he was charged with murder and felony assault. He wasn't convicted of murder. He plead guilty to a minor misdemeanor in exchange for testifying against the two other people charged as well. If the prosecution weren't the most inept, worthless, good for nothing, pieces of crap lawyers little Ray "Stabby McStab" Lewis would've been convicted. ;)

I know, hence the ":p "!

[davidb]

I was just recently talking to a guy who works at a store near where I live. This guy used to play on a team with Rich Telford (who owns the field near here and frequents the aforementioned store, and with whom I have spoken on occasion, so the guy's not making it up) which played the tournament circuit back in the day when Smart Parts was promoting the Magic Box (more on that later).

Anyway, his team was playing against the All Americans, and in his own words, he "got really lucky and got a bunch of eliminations". He soon ran and grabbed the flag, at which point the All Americans gave a certain code:

"Start a fight."

At that point, a few of the guys in the AA's deadbox started getting physical with the other team. While the refs were focused on trying to get the fight broken up, the remaining AA dead box residents proceeded to shoot the members of the other team who were still in the game. Luckily, the guy I was talking to, who still had the flag, was able to run for the hang before being hit.

He also explained to me why it was that the Mag with the Magic Box would shoot farther (and let me tell you when he said it that way I was getting ready to try to keep a straight face). The AA's guns were set up so that when they went to the chrono, they would be shooting at under 300 fps. Once they started playing, however, they would allow the Box to fill with liquid CO2, causing their velocity to spike. People watching the game see this, and simply see that the gun is shooting farther, which they attribute to the Magic Box's magic instead of the increased velocity.

This blatant disregard for safety and the rules is, at least in severity (although perhaps not in utter stupidity and audacity) easily equivalent to Avalanche's little escapade. The main difference, of course, is that Salm got caught. On speaking with some of Rich Telford's sponsored teams (who were with Rich and the Ironmen at WC) last weekend, as far as I can tell, the general concensus among the other teams that were present is that the other players from Avalanche knew all along.

Perhaps what needs to be done, rather than trying to get refs who will be infallible, is to get the games ALL on tape (at least for big games like the Cup). If there could be a camera on each player, things that the refs missed could be caught and penalized after the fact.

For example: Team "Off In the Woods" plays in the WC and wins the Pro Division. Later, on review of the tapes, it is found that on several occasions, members of the team wiped, played through hits which they could clearly be seen to have flinched from, and committed various and sundry other offences. Their title is revoked, and they are told that they are not welcome in the next tourney. Other teams in other tournies who are found to have cheated are docked points, forced to play at a disadvantage next time around, or suspended.

It's probably too costly to be feasible at the moment, but could be something to give serious consideration to in the future. Maybe Warpig.com could be contracted to do the filming?

[billmi]

Originally posted by davidb
For example: Team "Off In the Woods" plays in the WC and wins the Pro Division. Later, on review of the tapes, it is found that on several occasions, members of the team wiped, played through hits which they could clearly be seen to have flinched from, and committed various and sundry other offences. Their title is revoked, and they are told that they are not welcome in the next tourney. Other teams in other tournies who are found to have cheated are docked points, forced to play at a disadvantage next time around, or suspended.

It's probably too costly to be feasible at the moment, but could be something to give serious consideration to in the future. Maybe Warpig.com could be contracted to do the filming?

OK, for World Cup this year, that would have taken 240 cameras and operators to have one camera on every player - double that if you want two angles on every player so you cen see when they flinch from a hit. Half that number for the 5 man, and you're looking at a crew of 500 people for half a week, and 250 for half a week (I'm throwing in the extra 10-20 staffers that would be needed to run tapes back and forth to the fields, and store them in a truck.

Now, when it's done there will be some 15,000 hours of tape to be reviewed. Reviewing it in detail enough to catch a flinch from a hit, and then cross reference to the other camera view for a comparison is going to take 5 man hours per hour of footage MINIMUM, so we're talking around 75,000 man hours to review the footage. We add in equipment time, and we're looking at an overall budget on the order of 7.5 million dollars.

OK, so we just raise the entry fees to deal with that. Using this year's attendance as an example, Corinthian Media Services (the company that publishes WARPIG.com - AKA me) could contract a job like this (OK, I'd do a corporate restructure, and have big staffing issues, but wave a 7.5 million dollar check in my face and I'll find a way).

Entry fees would need to be increased by over $18,000 per team to cover the cost, and then, somewhere between 6 months and 5 years after the tournament was over, once the video was analized, we could publish a list of teams who were disqualified, and PSP could ask them to give the prizes back.

Then again, raise the entry fees by that much, and fewer teams will attend, so the video costs would go down.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[dcmander]

No sport has all perfect calls. Even the sports that do ocassionally have a camera review (NFL - Coach's Challenge), it doesn't happen all the time. Paintball players just need to accept that it is gonna happen. But I agree that it won't stop enless larger punishments are made and enforced for cheating/unsportsmanship conduct, etc.


O/T: Whats an example of a 3 for 1 penalty? :)

[manike]

Originally posted by dcmander
O/T: Whats an example of a 3 for 1 penalty? :)

Wiping.

I think it should also cover blatant playing on, which makes more of a difference to a game.

[Rooster]

There were sports played before the advent of instant replay. The sloution is to make the peanalty so painful no one will ever want to take the chance. Have third party refs and when someone gets caught wiping, the team is done for the tournement. Shooting from off field or the dead box is a one year suspension for the whole team. I'd like to see the guys with the brass to cheat if cheating earns their team a tourny suspension.

[benzy2]

yeah you know a sport that has no instant replay. It is college football. They get the same penelties or weaker ones then pro football.

[Kneedragger]

Originally posted by dcmander
No sport has all perfect calls. Even the sports that do ocassionally have a camera review (NFL - Coach's Challenge), it doesn't happen all the time. Paintball players just need to accept that it is gonna happen. But I agree that it won't stop enless larger punishments are made and enforced for cheating/unsportsmanship conduct, etc.


O/T: Whats an example of a 3 for 1 penalty? :)

Wiping is a 3 for 1

[Kneedragger]

Originally posted by davidb

For example: Team "Off In the Woods" plays in the WC and wins the Pro Division. Later, on review of the tapes, it is found that on several occasions, members of the team wiped, played through hits which they could clearly be seen to have flinched from, and committed various and sundry other offences. Their title is revoked, and they are told that they are not welcome in the next tourney. Other teams in other tournies who are found to have cheated are docked points, forced to play at a disadvantage next time around, or suspended.

It's probably too costly to be feasible at the moment, but could be something to give serious consideration to in the future. Maybe Warpig.com could be contracted to do the filming?

And once again, if you have the ref reviewing the video, and he does like many of the refs now and doesn't ENFORCE the rules, what's the point? you've just spent a bunch of money for lots of video equipment but you still haven't solved any of the problems. Still goes back to accountability. If you don't have it, nothings going to change.

[billmi]

Originally posted by Kneedragger


And once again, if you have the ref reviewing the video, and he does like many of the refs now and doesn't ENFORCE the rules, what's the point?

SHUSHUSHSUSH!!!!!

Davidb has the right answer. Just raise the entry fees and cut me a check for $7.5 million dollars. It will be good for the economy too, look at all the people that will be employed because of it!

Just back it and I'll keep quiet about that brand of loaders who's jems are illegal under NPPL rules, but the refs keep ignoring.


Really if the refs enforced NPPL rule 5.25, the games would go much faster, and it would be absolutely obvious who had fired each shot, and no one would be able to play on (I suppose they could if they shot themselves in the foot, but that's the only way).


See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Trunnion]

i'm a little confused. rule 5.25 says "Gun barrels may be equipped with proting, slots, and/or rifling, but may not have a sound suppressor attached or integral to the construction of the barrel. Only one barrel will be allowed on the field." how would this make the games go faster and what not? :confused:

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by billmi
Really if the refs enforced NPPL rule 5.25, the games would go much faster, and it would be absolutely obvious who had fired each shot, and no one would be able to play on (I suppose they could if they shot themselves in the foot, but that's the only way).

So a gain of center barrel instead of center flag?:D

THink the NPPL could do with a closer look at it's rule book?:rolleyes:

Or, is it just a typo on Paintballrefs.com?:p

[davidb]

Originally posted by billmi


OK, for World Cup this year, that would have taken 240 cameras and operators to have one camera on every player - double that if you want two angles on every player so you cen see when they flinch from a hit. Half that number for the 5 man, and you're looking at a crew of 500 people for half a week, and 250 for half a week (I'm throwing in the extra 10-20 staffers that would be needed to run tapes back and forth to the fields, and store them in a truck.

Now, when it's done there will be some 15,000 hours of tape to be reviewed. Reviewing it in detail enough to catch a flinch from a hit, and then cross reference to the other camera view for a comparison is going to take 5 man hours per hour of footage MINIMUM, so we're talking around 75,000 man hours to review the footage. We add in equipment time, and we're looking at an overall budget on the order of 7.5 million dollars.

OK, so we just raise the entry fees to deal with that. Using this year's attendance as an example, Corinthian Media Services (the company that publishes WARPIG.com - AKA me) could contract a job like this (OK, I'd do a corporate restructure, and have big staffing issues, but wave a 7.5 million dollar check in my face and I'll find a way).

Entry fees would need to be increased by over $18,000 per team to cover the cost, and then, somewhere between 6 months and 5 years after the tournament was over, once the video was analized, we could publish a list of teams who were disqualified, and PSP could ask them to give the prizes back.

Then again, raise the entry fees by that much, and fewer teams will attend, so the video costs would go down.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

LOL I was waiting for you to come back and let me know exactly what magnitude of impossibility we were looking at here. About what I expected.

[manike]

Originally posted by Trunnion
Only one barrel will be allowed on the field

...

Think about it...

:D

[billmi]

Originally posted by Trunnion
i'm a little confused. rule 5.25 says "Gun barrels may be equipped with proting, slots, and/or rifling, but may not have a sound suppressor attached or integral to the construction of the barrel. Only one barrel will be allowed on the field." how would this make the games go faster and what not? :confused:

Because if there is only one barrel on the field, only one player can actually shoot paint. He would, reasonably quickly shoot all the players on the other team. And, since they couldn't shoot back (thrown paint does not count as an elimination) none of them could play on (which is generally interpreted as shooting) after being hit.

Then again, I'm sure someone would quickly build some guns with Loooooong breeches that could get some decent velocity even when tha barrel was removed.

That is not a typo, that's the actual rule. What is enforced in the NPPL/PSP events is the spirit of that rule - they only allow one barrel *per player* on the field.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Trunnion]

thanks. i totally missed that. man, do i feel dumb now. manike, i actually DID think about it, and i just couldn't come up with anything. i guess i just interpreted the way the rule should be written, and just didn't catch what was actually written. sorry for making you have to explain it to me. :)

[demonguy8]

there are reasons I should probably never reff in the nppl... and I think that one sums it up for me as I would have a great deal of fun going up to the two teams and telling them that out of 20 people that only 1 is getting to bring a barrel out on the field....
maybe i just have a warped sense of humor? :D


Edit: i know some markers have little/no trouble firing a ball without a barrel...(albeit at about 30 fps and in no particularly set direction) so couldnt they all be actually shooting or is there a rule against playing without a barrel?

[Kneedragger]

Originally posted by billmi


SHUSHUSHSUSH!!!!!

Davidb has the right answer. Just raise the entry fees and cut me a check for $7.5 million dollars. It will be good for the economy too, look at all the people that will be employed because of it!

Just back it and I'll keep quiet about that brand of loaders who's jems are illegal under NPPL rules, but the refs keep ignoring.


Really if the refs enforced NPPL rule 5.25, the games would go much faster, and it would be absolutely obvious who had fired each shot, and no one would be able to play on (I suppose they could if they shot themselves in the foot, but that's the only way).


See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

LOL, of course there is the loader must be a SOLID color rule. I have yet to see a ref stop a player fropm taking black loader with a clear lid out on the field. ;)