...EVERYONE should see this.

[Chance_K_J]

It is my opinion that EVERYONE should see this.

I just finnished looking over the website for the new movie comming out called "Bowling for Columbine". and im at the point were it's my opinion that everyone should see this documentary, and or read what content is on the websites. take 10 mins or so and view the movie clips and trailers from the film. as an exersize in thinking. Paintball indestry or not, we can all learn somthing from this.

www.bowlingforcolumbine.com

www.michaelmoore.com


*NOTE*

After I read/veiwed some of the content on these sites i clicked over to www.cnn.com and noticed how screwed up things actualy were. and how the media is explotating some events that happen over others because they are more "media friendly". Be sure to check out the "Mikes Message" section (on michaelmoore.com) from Wednesday, October 25th, 2002, and you'll know what i mean.

And remeber people, please take this all with an open mind. I didnt come here to start an argument.

[oldsoldier]

First, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Now that I got that out of the way....
The Green Party, as well as liberals, have a very skewed view of the world. Diplomacy for Iraq didnt work. We cant hug these nations that cause the world problems. Sometimes, you need to kick them in the pants. Bush's deal with Iraq is a long time coming. In case anyone missed this; Hussein lost the war. He doesnt get to make the rules. Yet, for the entire time Clinton was in office we had 3 terrorist attacks that were linked, on some way, to hussein, numerous hostile fire incidents while patrolling the "no fly" zone, many ,any anti American demonstrations, threats (direct, no less) to our country, and the President himself (including at least one death threat). And now, where has that gotten us? And now, he agreed to UN inspections, then, AGAIN, started making up rules. This guy needs to be removed. Period. He has kept his people in ruin for the past 15 years. He started out nobly; hell, WE supported his fight with Iran! His health care and progressive thinking were far ahead of the rest of the middle east in the late 70s-early 80s. Then, after Iran, he went nuts. He is not right in the head. He has turned into the same thing Hitler was; win the people and the world over, gain absolute power, then do what you want.
As far as N Korea goes; I think this situation is salvageable. Only time will tell on this one. Also, if you didnt know, we have suspected them of having nukes for like 15 years now; there was a detonation a few years back that they vehemently denied; we couldnt prove it, and that was the end of it.
The world's problem's will not be solved with "group hugs and love". Sorry, thats just the way it is. Sometimes, force is needed to make things right. As far as the rest of the world's gun violence; all those countries have outlawed firearms outright, or a person is limited to a breechloader. Therefore, the only firearms are in the hands of police and military. We, on the other hand, allow our citizens to posess firearms. It is a protectedright. Something which CANNOT be taken away. Firearm violence is committed with stolen or illegal firearms. Check the FBI stats; something like 97-97 percent are stolen. Laws arent created for law abiding citizens; they are created to punish criminals. To think otherwise is futile. I have never aimed a personal firearm at anyone. I was almost mugged once; opened my jacket, they saw my pistol; end of incident. Would I have used it? I dont know. But, if I did, would I be labelled a criminal? here in MA, probably. They would have done a sob story on him, then go through my life; all my firearms training, etc, and told me I should have known better. Skewed judgement again.
Ok, I am off the soapbox now.

[-Jôker-]

the documentary has good points but i feal like its bashing white southern men (like myself) that really offends me it basically puts down the US and thats isnt right... our right as US citizens (well one of many) is to 'bear arms' that means anything from a knife to a firearm atleast legal ones... and out of all the legal guns owned i bet not even half of them are the ones used to kill like oldsoldier said.... and i just thought of this.... why didnt it list countries in the middle east that have the 'cival wars' goin on how the violence there? yea got the movie there.... i mean there could be like 200 ppl a day getting killed there but no the movie has to pick on us..... like so many ppl and countries do.... it still has a few good points but some of its facts dont show the WHOLE truth

[Restola]

Originally posted by -Jôker-
it basically puts down the US and thats isnt right...
Welcome to how liberals view the world (I'm not talking about normal democrats, I mean true left-wing nuts, environmentalist groups, the Green party, etc).

I hate politics. Why can't I just be in charge of the world? :D

[Restola]

Originally posted by Chance_K_J
And remeber people, please take this all with an open mind.
Oh and I dont have an open mind when it comes to the liberal view of the world.

Sorry.

[FactsOfLife]

Michael Moore is a schmuck.

[FordPrefect]

Restola, I love your quote so much, it is in my sig!

[-Jôker-]

ok i just thought of this.... ok how many ppl have died in the US due to terrorism?! compare that # to shootings..... now who are the bad ppl? uh huh large dif. there.... yet again the US gets put down why? who knows? give people freedom they give the nation back.... nothing except BS opnions on how bad it is here when its the closest thing to a utopia on this planet it seems our presidents cant ever please everybody (i know that is imposible) but cmon the gut has on his site links to where protestsd are going on against Bush.... and this is what gets me Bush is from the south and is pro guns and is white.... mr. moore seems to dislike WHITE MEN from THE SOUTH isnt that discrimination? yes it is and in one of his little movies on his page it said descrimination was bad.... wow we habe a hipocrit..... the more i think about this the angrier i get... ok im done FOR NOW


EDIT

restola what did you mean by your post i dont have a full understanding of what a liberal is... becase i also hate politics so i dont bother to go into great detail with it

[Restola]

Something like 120 million people have been killed by their own governments this century alone.

I think the right to bear arms is a good one...

And joker, when I say "liberal" what I am describing are people who want big government (often bordering on socialism), more legislation, less rights for individuals, distribution of wealth, people who think big-buisness is destroying the world, people who say electricity was the downfall of society while staying in a 5 star hotel in an area where thousands of children die from containimated water, people who think killing a tree is as bad as killing a person.

Basicly a liberal is someone who thinks with their emotions, and not with common sense. A classic example is "lets pass a new gun law so less people die from guns." On the emotional level anyone would say "great, we'll be saving lives." But in reality all it does it prevent law-abiding people from owning guns, while any criminal still has easy access to one and now that criminal knows when he breaks into your house, he will always have the upper hand.

Thats my definition of a liberal, as I use the term in a derogatory way. The democrats on capital hill dont all fit that stereotype. Dems arent really liberals any more than republicans are conservatives (they are both nearly the same in reality).

You asked :) So there ya go.

[Jonno06]

blah..i really didnt feel like reading any of that..so I didn't..

but I think that most liberals ARE hypocrits..but then again...that is their job.
I think terrorism isnt such a problem as people think...School shooting,and other domestic problems are more important.We should stop americans from killing americans before we worry about some other 3rd country....thats just my opinion..

[-Jôker-]

yea jonno but whats more threating ONE mad man with a AK47 or a whole army with AKs? granted that one is here and the other is to poor to get here as a whole but still we need to take care of both ;)

[FrAuStY]

Originally posted by Restola -
A classic example is "lets pass a new gun law so less people die from guns." On the emotional level anyone would say "great, we'll be saving lives." But in reality all it does it prevent law-abiding people from owning guns, while any criminal still has easy access to one and now that criminal knows when he breaks into your house, he will always have the upper hand.

AMEN! People don't understand that guns don't kill people. Criminals and STUPID people with GUNS kill people. I mean c'mon.. ever go to wal-mart? They have like 20 guns on the walls. Are THOSE guns killing anyone? NO. They're chillin. Now.. give that gun to a criminal.. yeah.. they may kill someone with it.. but is that the fault of the firearm? No, the firearm can't shoot unless someone makes it shoot.

When people lobby for gun control.. they don't realize they're lobbying for their own demise. Just as Restola stated.. it removes the guns from Law Abiding citizens, who SHOULD be able to use those in defense of their lives and property, while criminals/thugs/drug dealers/etc still get themon the black market. Whats that mean? YOU have no gun to defend your home and family when some crack head breaks in with an SKS, or pump shotgun. What can you do now? Nothing beg for your life. What could you have done? Put a bullet between his eyes.. then placed the gun on the floor.. called the authorities, explain what happened and possibly went to jail for a few days while everything gets straightened out.

I CAN'T STAND the idea of gun registration, did you know in almost every country that instated a "Firearm Registration law" withint 10 years over 95% of firearms were banned?! Wanna know how? They knew what types of guns people owned, then slowly but sureley they banned them one at a time. Until, all you're left with are 22's and muzzle loaders. Neither of which can you do any good against a criminal with a "black market" firearm... GRRRRRrRrrrr.... alright..I gotta stop..I could go onnn and onnnn and onnnnnnn.

[-Jôker-]

this fits into this pretty well its from a while back



I'm a "Bad American"--this pretty much sums it up for me. I like big trucks, big boats, big houses, and naturally pretty women. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family; not some mid-level, government flunky with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to the crack addicts squirting out babies. I don't care about appearing compassionate.
I think playing with toy guns doesn't make you a killer. I believe ignoring your kids and giving them Prozac might. I think I'm doing better than the homeless. I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. I have the right not to be tolerant of others because they aer different, weird, or make me mad. This is my life to live and not necessarily up to others expectations. I know what SEX is and there are not varying degrees of it. I don't celebrate Kwanzaa--but if you want to, thats fine. I just don't believe everyone else should have to.
I believe that if you're selling me a Dairy Queen milkshake, a pack of cigarettes, or a motel room, that you should do it in English. As a matter-of-fact, if you are an American Citizen, you should speak English. My uncles and forefathers should not have died in vain so that you can leave the countries you were born in, come here, disrespect ours, and make us bend to your will. Get over it.
I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry-butt if you're running from them after they told you to stop. If you can't understand the word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the previous line. I don't use the lame excuse, "It's for the children," as a shield for unpopular opinions or actions. I know how to count votes and I feel much safer letting a machine, wiht no political affiliations, do a recount when needed. I nkow what lying is, and it's never based on one's definition of the word 'is'. I don't think that just becuase you weren't born in this country, you should qualify for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans, etc., so that you can open a hotel, 7-Eleven, trinket shop, or anything else, while the indigenouse people can't even get a decent high school education.
I didn't take the inititive to invent the internet. I thought the taco bell dog was funny. I want to bring back safe and sane fireworks. I believe no one has ever died becuase of something Ozzy, Ice-T, or Marilyn Manson sang, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to that crap from someone elses car when I'm stopped at a red light--but I respect your right to do so. I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment that someone working at a Blockbuster or Jack in the box. I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words 'light', 'lite', or 'fat-free' on the package.
Our soldiers did not go overseas to risk there lives defending out Constitution so that decades later you can tell me that it's a 'living' docuemnt, ever changing, and open to interpretation. "The guys who wrote it were light-years ahead of their time and meant what they said. Now leave that sacred parchment alone or there's going to be trouble.
I don't hate the rich, I help the poor. I know professional wrestling is fake. I believe that a self-righteous, liberal Democrat with a cause, is more dangerous that a Hell's Angel with an attitude. I want to know exactly what church the "Reverend" Jessie Jackson preaches at, and what exactly his job function is.
I own a gun, you can own a gun to, any red blooded american should be allowed to own a gun; but if you use it in crime, then you should do the time.
I think Bill Gates has the right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If this makes you mad feel free to invent the next operation system and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy who invented the internet to help you.
I don't believe in 'Hate Crime' legislation. Even suggesting it makes me mad. You're telling me that someone who is a minority, gay, disabled, other nationality, or otherwise different from the mainstream of this country, has more value as a human being that I do as a white male. If someone kills anyone, I'd say that's a 'Hate' crime. We don't need anymore laws! Lets enforce the ones we already have. I think turkey bacon, turkey beef, turkey fake anything sucks. I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child--it takes a parent with the guts to stand up to their kid spank his little butt and say, "NO!" when it's necessary to do so.
I'll admit that the only movie that ever made my cry was "Ol' Yeller." I didn't realize that Dr. Suess was a genius until I had a kid.
I will not be frowned apon or looked down upon or be kept silent becuase I have these beliefs and opinions. I thought this country allowed me that right. I will not conform or compromise just to keep from hurting somebodys feelings.
I'm neither angry or disenfranchised, no matter how desperately the maninstream media wants the world to believe otherwise. Yes, I guess by some peoples definition, I may be a "Bad American."--But that's just tough.

[Restola]

:)

[joeyjoe367]

OK... Guess who Passed TOTAL Gun registration RIght before the beginning of WW2?

HITLER

...To make the streets safer for their children.

Joker, That last post you just made pretty much sums up my Oppinions also. There might be a s discrepency here and there, but for the most part, it's about right.

If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. That's a Fact. You couldn't possibly disarm this nation.

[halB]

first off, hitler was elected by a democratic process, and therefore cant be compared to our president if he tried to ban guns.

second off, we aint gonna have a hitler here in the us, we dont have that bad of economic troubles. we also have a constitution, no matter how hard the president is trying to get rid of it.

third off, i think we should have like hunting rifles, but for the love of god, get rid of pistols, automatic weapons, assault guns, etc. etc. im only for keeping big *** rifles and shotguns. noone goes hunting with an uzi.

fourth, i dont care how many people have been killed by there governments, there called despots, and dictators, and usually gas there people to death. we have checks on that, it aint gonna happen at least not for a few more years. those statistics, if they even exist, come from third world countries with oppresive governments.

fifth, that numbers NOTHING compared to the number of people killed by guns in this country when you take it as a whole. 120 million? well lets divide that up to every country, get an average, and more people die every day from suicides using guns int he us than die from their governments.

[Restola]

Originally posted by halB
that numbers NOTHING compared to the number of people killed by guns in this country when you take it as a whole. 120 million? well lets divide that up to every country, get an average, and more people die every day from suicides using guns int he us than die from their governments.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is a liberal as I described above.

YOU CANNOT GET RID OF GUNS. THERE IS NO MAGIC WAND. MAKING THEM ILLEGAL DOESN'T WORK.

I will not spend any more time to point out the obvious ignorance and short-sightedness of your statements.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Restola
I will not spend any more time to point out the obvious ignorance and short-sightedness of your statements.

You've hit on one of the distinguishing characteristics of liberal thinking. Short sightedness in dealing with issues.

People getting shot? Their solution? Take away the guns.

Have you fixed the underlying problem of mutual respect that people are so lacking today? Have you fixed the rampant disregard for the gun laws already on the books? Nope.

Making gun laws only affects one type of person. The law abiding citizen who follows the law.

Criminals don't follow laws, this is why they're criminals.

Ask the Brits how draconian gun laws have worked in their country.

Home invasion robberies, assaults, and murder have all skyrocketed since these oppresive laws were enacted.

3 countries in the free world have basically disarmed their citizens through gun registration and confiscation:
Canada, the UK, and Australia. All of them are now experiencing resurgent crime rates. All of the gun bans were enacted by "liberal" governments.

Don't think it can happen here? How long will it take before the "right" Supreme Court is in place and they decide the 2nd doesn't apply to the individual.

More and more elected officials are invading private homes with their legislation. Boston enacted a paintball gun ban inside their city limits. Nevermind that it's your house it's stored in.

Rochester, NY here has enacted legislation that says if you own a gun, it MUST have a trigger lock AND be locked in a gun safe at all times. Again, never mind it's in YOUR home.

It's the small incremental steps they take in the name of "safety" and crime fighting that are the insidious beginnings of total gun banishment.

Yes, there are at last count some 200+ million guns throughout this country. The vast majority of which are kept by people just like me and you. It's absolutely NONE of the governments business who has how many of what kind either.

And it isn't my neighbors business, nor is it yours to know what I have and how many. Nor is it mine to know what you have. This is basic privacy here. Very basic.

If the government decides ballistic fingerprinting and registration are good things, how long do you think it will take before that database is used to disarm legal gun owners in the name of safety? If they know who has them, they can issue warrants to come get them. Or force you to turn them in. Ask any former Aussie gun owner if you don't think it can happen.

The longer term thinking on how to fix this?

Instead of worrying about how many guns there are in private citizens hands, let's start worrying about how to take criminals off the streets.

Jails are overcrowded? BUILD MORE FRIGGIN JAILS!

Courts are nothing but revolving doors for repeat offenders? Get rid of parole. Actually enforcing the punishments would go a tremendously long way towards cleaning up crime on the streets.


But that's mean and uncaring as far as liberals are concerned. What about the criminal's rights?

My thought is, they gave them up when they decided to be criminals.

[Restola]

There is one consolation prize here.

Making anything illegal in America opens a vast black-market. Worst case scenario, we can buy our guns like the criminals do :/

[Jack Napier]

I don't believe the prison system works. It costs too much money to build and maintain prisons. We should be focusing on investing in education. I think we should increase the punishments involved with crime. Eye for an eye system like they have in India. You steal, your hand gets cutt off, you rape, you get casterated ect ect.If we educate the children and show them what happens with video tapes when you break the law, crime will definetly go down. Seems logical to me.

[joeyjoe367]

Originally posted by halB
first off, hitler was elected by a democratic process, and therefore cant be compared to our president if he tried to ban guns.

Excuse me? I'm sorry, but I think I hear the resounding echo of Ignorance. How was our President NOT elected by democratic process? If I remember correctly, Our preveous election was the Epitome of the democratic process. Wasn't Bush ahead by such a small amount, that our Internet-Inventing buddy demanded a recount, which was perfectly standard?

Gee, and he didn't ask for recounts on those districts he had already had the advantage, huh? Gee?

Machines don't have a political Bias. People do.

Jack, I also believe that our prison system does not work. Here in Washington, A new prison opened up a while ago, and people were allowed to tour the damn thing and spend the night if they so liked.

I saw footage from our television, and I can tell you, it was a FREEKING HOTEL.

People should be scared ****LESS to go to jail. It's simply not the case here in the United States. I Say that when you commit a felony, YOU have surrendered your rights because you have MOST LIKELY encroached on another person's rights. The fact that you had to be arrested and put through our legal system means that it's pulling money out of MY WALLET Through tax dollars that it costs to build and maintain prisons, not to mention our entire legal system.

Speaking of Criminal's rights, if one EVER enters my home, and I have to defend myself, That person, WHATEVER Gender, or age, I Will kill. The way our legal system works, it'll just come and bite me in the *** if i just wound the bastard. I'd rather do society a favor and put this guy away forever than to lose to a scumbag like this in court.

[joeyjoe367]

Originally posted by Jack Napier
I don't believe the prison system works. It costs too much money to build and maintain prisons. We should be focusing on investing in education. I think we should increase the punishments involved with crime. Eye for an eye system like they have in India. You steal, your hand gets cutt off, you rape, you get casterated ect ect.If we educate the children and show them what happens with video tapes when you break the law, crime will definetly go down. Seems logical to me.

It's always been my suggestion that we should just have government funded "Accidents"

oh Whoops, 200 criminals, the scum of the earth, died because of accidental arsenic poisoning in the food delivered to the prison.

Darn.

[Hexis]

How many people here have actually seen the movie in question? I just did. Michael Moore isn't really saying that we should register and ban guns. Not at all. He takes a nice trip to Canada where he says there are something like 10 million gun owning homes. However they have a miniscule fraction of the gun murders that we have in the US. The real point that he's getting at is that we live in a culture of Fear, and it's killing us. The mass media concentrates on sensational crimes because that’s what sells. They are helping create and maintain a fearful society.

An open mind to only one a single view, is anything except open.

[nic m85]

i just love it when liberals point to places like the UK and say that the number of murders by guns is so low becasuse they dont have guns.

DID YOU ALSO KNOW THAT THE UK IS #1 IN THE WORLD IN STABBINGS AND POISONINGS??????

Oh my, seems to me that people are going to kill people regardless of whether or not they have guns. All gun control laws do is infringe on law abiding citizens rights.

Were there murders before guns? hell yes. look at the bible. Liberals just need a scapegoat to blame the worlds problems on. Remember guys, when you're a liberal nothing is ever your fault, there is always someone or something else to balme.

As for me, i'm a 17 year old who believes that whats mine is mine. I was brought up in a house where I was SPANKED when I did something wrong. I take responsibility for my own actions. I don't put the blame on someone else. I dont think I should be punished because of the actions of a few morons out there. When a criminal commits a crime and infringes on someone elses rights, they inturn surrender their rights. Guns dont kill people, neither does tv or music or movies. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

[shartley]

Originally posted by nic m85
i just love it when liberals point to places like the UK and say that the number of murders by guns is so low becasuse they dont have guns.

DID YOU ALSO KNOW THAT THE UK IS #1 IN THE WORLD IN STABBINGS AND POISONINGS??????

Oh my, seems to me that people are going to kill people regardless of whether or not they have guns. All gun control laws do is infringe on law abiding citizens rights.

Were there murders before guns? hell yes. look at the bible. Liberals just need a scapegoat to blame the worlds problems on. Remember guys, when you're a liberal nothing is ever your fault, there is always someone or something else to balme.

As for me, i'm a 17 year old who believes that whats mine is mine. I was brought up in a house where I was SPANKED when I did something wrong. I take responsibility for my own actions. I don't put the blame on someone else. I dont think I should be punished because of the actions of a few morons out there. When a criminal commits a crime and infringes on someone elses rights, they inturn surrender their rights. Guns dont kill people, neither does tv or music or movies. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.
You are allowed to date my middle daughter. ;) (that is if you can continue to keep your nose clean... ;))

[pbstu]

you people make me sick. every single other forum i read, which is 4 or 5, is praisig this movie as the greatest thing since sliced bread. i come here, and its being bashed, i think i saw 2 or 3 positive comments while reading through all of those posts. as Hexis said, the US has a culture of fear. is it just that none of you have an open mind for these things?, how many of you have actually seen the movie? its times like these im glad i live in canada. im so disgusted right now, ill add more later when i can think straight.


stu.

[Hexis]

heh pbstu, one of my first thoughts after the movie was "maybe I should move to Canada..."

While I'm not sure that the movie was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I turly appreciate anything that makes me think about an issue from a different side. This movie accomplished that.

I am pretty sickened by the general closed mindedness here. But then again, that's a pretty natural conserative trait.

[Curly]

I agree that a lot of these people seem very closed minded about these issues. I have not seen this movie yet (havent had any time) but i will in the next few days. I do believe that from what i have heard Michael Moore makes some very good points.

I do not think he ever states that guns should be banned. INSTEAD, he focuses on ideas that would allow all of you to own your guns but still regulate certain things. IE at this moment in time if a person buys a gun they are not put on a list of gun owners and it is illegal to track bullets to guns that were bought. Tracking these things would end up in much quicker solvings of murder cases. I do not see how any of you gun owning people would find this wrong. If you feel that you can safely own guns and not use them in the wrong manner then you should never have to worry about being on said list.

But say your wife/girlfriend/kid were to be shot and killed. Would you want the police to be able to track the suspect from the bullets and catch them? Or would you rather let the suspect get away or have better chances of getting away because the police couldnt track the bullets? Personally i would rather have the latter.

I am not anti-gun at all and i enjoy target shooting with pistols and rifles. But i do think that there could definitely be some stricter laws, and if we have these laws they should in no way affect any law abiding gun owner.

On another note if you read michael moore's book "stupid white men" you will notice that George Bush was not in fact elected president by the people of the US. Please dont flame me about this if you have not read the book and/or have not researched this at all.

[pbstu]

exactly, i think there is definitaly a medium that needs to be accomplished when it comes to guns. i dont think total bans are the anwser, look what it did to australia. and Hexis, theres lots of room up here, i encourage you to make the trip. i couldnt even begin to imagine the time i would have living in US, or going to school. i think high school is bad here, i would probabaly go crazy going to school or living in the US.


stu.

[shartley]

It is NOT closed minded to acknowledge someone else’s views but not change yours. Some of us have formed our views and opinions from actual experiences and first hand knowledge, and no movie or “good sounding” opinion will change that. Being “open minded” also means you have to acknowledge the views and opinions of those who you don’t agree with…. And that being the case, all those on this thread who are pissing and moaning about people not agreeing with the movie are being as “closed minded” as the ones they are complaining about.

I have not seen the movie. I have however followed the history of gun control in our nation as well as others. And sorry to say, violent crimes have been around longer than the gun, and someone bent on killing or hurting someone WILL do it, even if it comes down to using a rock. If you focus your attention on the weapons and not the underlying issues, you will never solve the problem.

Now, for those who think gun “fingerprinting” is the way to go, I would suggest you look at how that actually works. Unlike human fingerprints, gun fingerprints change over time. They can also be altered. This makes that system of control and documentation flawed at best, and would actually waste resources since it is too easy to come back with inaccurate information. It would become counter productive.

The best way to do gun fingerprinting is the way it is done NOW. You find the weapon you think was used in the crime, and shoot it and compare the fingerprints. This gives you a more accurate comparison, no matter what the person did to the weapon after they “got it”. And I say “got it” because most crimes committed with firearms are not done so with legally purchased weapons anyway (something most of the “gun control” folks seem to want to ignore, no matter how much it is brought up).

Now what I say, is that before you start implementing more laws or require those who are not breaking any laws to begin with to register their firearms, ENFORCE THE ONES YOU ALREADY HAVE! There are already enough laws on the books to take care of any problems that happen. But the reason we have such high crime rates in the US is that the criminals KNOW that no matter what they do, the chances of serving any real time (or any uncomfortable time ;)) is slim to none. They also know that the system is set up to ensure THEY have more rights (and those rights are actually protected) than those who THEY simply ignored and took away the rights of. And that goes for every crime committed, not just ones that involve guns.

The problem with gun violence in the United States is NOT the gun. It is the system. And as someone who has worked in that system, I can tell you this with all certainty.

Also keep in mind that you can make a rational sounding argument about any subject and for any side of it… and do so while using FACTS. This is easy to do, and is half the problem. If you listen to someone touting “facts” long enough, you can actually lose sight of the truth, if the truth is not what they want you to know. Heck, we have seen this done time and again throughout history. If you use the right facts, toss in just enough conjecture and personal opinions, and make it palatable (if not down right appealing) to the listening audience, you can make them swallow the most poisonous things….. and not only swallow it, but make them start thinking and preaching what was said.

I can think of one person who was a master at this….. Adolph Hitler.

And he also realized that you had to feed them little bits at a time. Noone goes from rational thinking to eating a full BS Pie in one giant step. But if you feed them a little bit at a time, and mix it in with enough “good stuff”, you can eventually get them to take huge bites of the pie and actually come back for more.

Folks need to review History.

Please don’t sit back as a teenager who has not even been out in the real world (no matter how much you think you know about it) and pass such harsh judgment on those of us who have. You will find that no matter what you think you know about how things work, or how the world is, it is often times much different when you have to jump out into it. Even if you think you know all the facts, that is not the same as living it. It is like knowing everything about Mags….. that is fine and well, but until you actually pull one apart, you are only “Good Will Hunting” and that doesn’t mean a whole lot.

I truly mean no disrespect. That is not the intent of my post. What is, is to show that things are not always as we would like them to be, or how we THINK they are. And far too often people take advantage of this to feed BS Pie to those that don’t know any better, or lack the wisdom or experience to recognize it. (Hey, almost sounds like W.A.S.! HeeHee, sorry too easy of a target. ;))

[Hexis]

Originally posted by nic m85
As for me, i'm a 17 year old


Restola
Oh and I dont have an open mind when it comes to the liberal view of the world.

SHartley my birthdate is part of my profile. I'm 27, not exaclty a teenager who hasn't seen anything in the real world.

Someone brings up a good movie here and someone else responds with “Michael Moore is a schmuck”, from then on it’s a bash-gun-legislation-and-liberals thread. My guess is that everyone who took part in that has not seen this movie. This movie is about the US’s culture of Fear. I’m just asking people to see it before they talk about it.

SHartley Your point about skewed views goes both ways. It's easy to argue that none of use have a real clue about the impact that more restrictive gun laws, or less restrictive gun laws would have. Either way it doesn't seam that gun laws are the problem. I thinnk you wouild actually like the movie. It's not anti-gun at all, just looking at how some things are very wrong with the culture we live in (in the US).

[shartley]

Originally posted by Hexis
SHartley my birthdate is part of my profile. I'm 27, not exaclty a teenager who hasn't seen anything in the real world.

Someone brings up a good movie here and someone else responds with “Michael Moore is a schmuck”, from then on it’s a bash-gun-legislation-and-liberals thread. My guess is that everyone who took part in that has not seen this movie. This movie is about the US’s culture of Fear. I’m just asking people to see it before they talk about it.

SHartley Your point about skewed views goes both ways. It's easy to argue that none of use have a real clue about the impact that more restrictive gun laws, or less restrictive gun laws would have. Either way it doesn't seam that gun laws are the problem. I thinnk you wouild actually like the movie. It's not anti-gun at all, just looking at how some things are very wrong with the culture we live in (in the US).
I was not referring to you directly. ;)

As for skewed views going both ways, I could not agree more. ;)

As for gun laws not being the problem... I agree.

As for me actually liking the movie.... I probably would. Most here on AO know I enjoy a lot of things, and one of which is good debate and differing viewpoints. I also love making people think, and appreciate those who assist in this process.

My post was meant to point out that just because people may have their own views, it does not mean they are not "open minded". I am about the most open minded person I know. That means that I am willing to discuss, be exposed to, and contemplate opinions or actions that are not my own. Being open minded does not however, mean that someone has to agree with everything, or has to change their own point of view.... only that they are willing to accept that others may not be of the same opinion and respect them in spite of it. It is also not that we will automatically change our minds, but that we are open to arguments contrary to our own.... if we in the end do NOT change our minds, it is not that we were "close minded", but that we looked at all sides and chose our own stance and position.

I really get aggravated when folks say I am closed minded just because I don't agree with them. Anyone who has been on AO for any length of time knows that I often play the Devil’s Advocate, this involves looking at things from ALL angles and sides. Just because folks don't agree on an issue does not mean in itself that either side had to be less open minded than the other, they just came to different conclusions and opinions.

[Curly]

Shartley I was not talking about you. I feel that many other people here are being close minded. By saying Michael Moore is a shmuck. Just because he voices an opinion or idea. I give you every right to have a different opinion or idea. But i do not think it is ok for people to insult him because he has different ideas.

I also think that a lot of people are too eager to jump on the "liberal bashing" bandwagon. From what it sounds like to me people here think of liberal as anyone who is not a right wing conservative and i find this a very skewed idea.

I have no disrespect for people here. But i do think we have to remember where we are. AO is supposed to be a very nice excepting place. IT seems like lately a lot of people have been flaming others and this disapoints me. We arnt turning into PBN but i still dont like it very much. This is just my opinion. If you dont agree thats fine.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Curly
Shartley I was not talking about you. I feel that many other people here are being close minded. By saying Michael Moore is a shmuck. Just because he voices an opinion or idea. I give you every right to have a different opinion or idea. But i do not think it is ok for people to insult him because he has different ideas.

I also think that a lot of people are too eager to jump on the "liberal bashing" bandwagon. From what it sounds like to me people here think of liberal as anyone who is not a right wing conservative and i find this a very skewed idea.

I have no disrespect for people here. But i do think we have to remember where we are. AO is supposed to be a very nice excepting place. IT seems like lately a lot of people have been flaming others and this disapoints me. We arnt turning into PBN but i still dont like it very much. This is just my opinion. If you dont agree thats fine.
I have no problem with what you just posted. ;)

[Curly]

Thank you SHartley i appreciate the response. :)

[pbstu]

ya, shartley as far as being open minded i dont think your the problem, as curly said its a lot of the other people on here who basically came and bashed micheal moore for the wrong reasons and have not responded since. I think what the movie was trying to say is that its not the guns but it is the US's culture that is propagating itself through guns. look at us here in canada, our gun legislation, which according to you is not the anwser (right?), has helped a great deal in my opinion, i dont actually know any statsitics, but i can only remember 2 or 3 gun related crimes where someone was actually hurt since new years.



stu.

[shartley]

Originally posted by pbstu
ya, shartley as far as being open minded i dont think your the problem, as curly said its a lot of the other people on here who basically came and bashed micheal moore for the wrong reasons and have not responded since. I think what the movie was trying to say is that its not the guns but it is the US's culture that is propagating itself through guns. look at us here in canada, our gun legislation, which according to you is not the anwser (right?), has helped a great deal in my opinion, i dont actually know any statsitics, but i can only remember 2 or 3 gun related crimes where someone was actually hurt since new years.



stu.
Let me first start by saying thank you.

Now….

You state that you don't know the statistics... but that is an important part of an argument either way.

What was the crime rate for handgun use before the legislation? What were the other crime rates for other forms of crime before this legislation? And how do they compare to the same criteria now?

I also think you may be confusing the effect with the cause. Also, people can not use the same rules and types of statistics and apply them any place they wish. Canada and the US have different court systems, and other distinctions which make raw statistics misleading at best.

Those who argue using Canada as a reference also admit that there are cultural differences between the two countries. This in itself tosses a big wrench into the gears. When making a comparison, you have to have the base line be the same. That is standard scientific principles and practice.

You can no more use Canada's laws and how Canadians react any more than you can use the laws of China and how their crime rates compare.

I am only suggesting that you step back and look at things from a different perspective, and realize that those same cultural distinctions made earlier in themselves may (and I say they will) render any NEW gun laws impotent in changing the use of guns in crimes. After all, as was stated (and I will state it again) most crimes committed with handguns in the US are done so with illegally purchased (or obtained) guns anyway. So any new laws would affect only those who currently follow the laws as they stand at this point.... and they are not the ones causing the problems the new laws are meant to correct. ;)

In essence, you would be creating more laws that criminals would ignore (as they are ignoring the current laws), but making it harder for the currently law abiding public to defend themselves. It is a thought process that seems to be ignored by those wanting additional gun legislation.

We in the US do not live in a country void of gun laws. In fact we have some pretty darn good ones. We DO however, live in a country that punishment for committing crimes (ANY crime) is a joke. As a person who used to be charged with enforcing the laws, I can again state without a doubt that the problem is not the lack of laws, but the lack of appropriate follow through for the laws that we DO have. Laws are only as good as the willingness of a society to enforce them and to discipline those who break them. And sorry, serving 6 months to a year, for an offense that carries a 15 year prison term as its penalty, is not what I call Enforcement or Discipline.

But those same people who would advocate new laws don't have to enforce them, nor worry about any other part of the process. Heck, it makes them FEEL good because they got something new on the books. Yup, they sure did their part, and they can now sleep well at night thinking they really changed something. But they didn't change anything, they just added another law that hurts law abiding citizens and will be ignored by non-law abiding citizens (as they already do).

I can fully support drafting a new law if there are no current laws dealing with the crime in question. But I can not, in good conscious, support implementing a new law concerning crimes that already have numerous laws covering them on the books, but are not being enforced. If after truly enforcing the laws you DO have, you find that they are not working, THEN draft new laws. But as it stands, this simple, and what I think is an obvious step, is not being done.

[pbstu]

Those who argue using Canada as a reference also admit that there are cultural differences between the two countries.

that was my point, as i said i believe the movie is not pointing at guns but pointing at the underlying culture which is using guns as a means of expressing itself (not literally of course). i didnt make it that clear in my last post but i was trying to make the point that its the differences in the cultures that shows the differences in the gun problem, which of course points at the culture as the driving problem. and that was the movies main point, that its more a cultural problem, as Hexis said, a culture of fear.



stu.

[Curly]

shartly what you are saying does make a lot of sense and i agree with you on a lot of issues. Enforcing laws is one the major problems.

But the issue i was talking about earlier is not so much a new law. The problem is that there is a law in place that makes it ILLEGAL for police agencys to track cartridges to certain gun manufacturers and people that bought these weapons. I do understand that a lot of guns used in criminal activities were not obtained legally. But there are definietly ones that were bought legally.

I dont think that law enforcement should use this technology on every case, but i dont think it makes sense to not be able to try and track guns. Maybe it wont solve the case, but i dont see how it could hurt. I also dont understand why people do not want to register guns or be on a list as a gun owner. Maybe i am being ignorant here but i only see how this could benifit us. If you are a law abiding gun owner then you have no reason to worry.

You made the point earlier that I (or whoever you were refering too) "sit back as a teenager who has not even been out in the real world (no matter how much you think you know about it) and pass such harsh judgment on those of us who have."

The thing is that you are absolutley right, i am 17 years old and i obviously have not experienced nearly as much as you have in this subject area. I am just trying to offer ideas and understand what about the topic. I respect your being civil and level headed about this issue while others are very immature and cannot discuss things civily.

-Jeremy