retro valve help please

[edhu]

I just bought a used retro valve.

I cleaned all the internals and replaced all the o-rings.

At first the on/off valve was not coming down to engage the trigger. After changing the o-ring and relubing...it does now.
However, now when I gas the gun up. The on/off works since the trigger is engaged. But when i press the trigger, the gun does not fire. I was pressing for a couple times until my macroline split length wise and made the loudest BOOM! noise ever!!! right in my left ear. So right now everything is ringing still.

I have turned the velocity adjuster in the back up.

by the way, i have an automag with one star.
agd flatline
lvl 10

[edhu]

retro valve pic

[edhu]

my gun

[edhu]

anyone?

please?

help?

[Smokee_2_7]

ok,

The gun not firing tends to be a classic level 10 thing. First off, what size o-ring carrier are you using? Change to the largest carrier that does not cause the gun to leak. When you get that done, crank up the velocity again until either the gun fires or it leaks out the back. If that dosent work, what spring are you using on the lvl 10 bolt?

If you have the longest one installed, got to the medium. If its the medium one, go to the smallest one. Lets assume for a minute that you get the gun to fire reliably ONLY with the smallest spring. If you put in the medium one, you get the reg. leaking out the back before the gun fires. In this case, your reg piston needs to be replaced. ( smallest spring tends to make your gun harder on paint- - - you probably want to use the MIDDLE legnth spring)

Now, Lets assume that you STILL cant get the gun to fire with the largest o-ring carrier that dosent leak (oil the o-ring before you put it in the carrier ), and the smallest bolt spring. Dissassemble the gun and chek to make sure that your sear in is set in the body rail right. I know it sounds like this is somthing that you wouldnt have done, but a guy had that exact same thing happen the other day. Somehow he just got it in there wrong, and stuff didnt fire.


Also, you said that you had replaced parts recently. What kind of parts kint? By this I mean was it an AGD parts kit, or a rt parts kit from some other company? Many people (including myself) have had problems with o-rings from other companies not working in the gun. I've put such o-rings into my on/off before, and they magically caused the gun to not fire (too small- - improper manufacturing - - caused them to refuse to let the on/off pin slide.)



Finally, you said that your macroline blew apart. This shouldnt happen, especially with nitro. What is your tank output pressure at? Most macroline is able to handle pressures up to atleast 1000psi. In my opinion, you shouldnt ever really need to crank up your output pressure more than that anyway. . . SO, if it IS set higher, turn it down to like 900. Replace the line. If it blows again (with the output gauge reading 900), then you have problems with your flatline.


one other thing that I would suggest is to try the system with a different air system. Screw-in or whatever.


Hope this gets you going. Let me know what happens, and if you need any more help/ encounter any more problems.

Carl

[edhu]

ok...so now the gun shooots!!! thank you so much.

except I have a very small leak down the barrel now. i think its due to my level 10 upgrade. I was trying to find that AGD video for how to install it again but can't find it. anyway, i need to add shims? or take some away? or i need a different carrier? i can't tell which carriers are bigger or smaller.

oh..oh and i got a black intelliframe today!!! woohoo!!! with a blade trigger.

[Shirow]

you probably need a smaller carrier.

[edhu]

arg!

ok...after i took out one shim...the gun was shooting great....then after a couple rapid shots...the gun wasn't firing after the initial shot. now after some adjustiy of the velocity in the back...it doesn't fire at all!

wat is going on here?

[Smokee_2_7]

sounds like your carrier o-ring is binding up on you.
Try oiling everything.

The not firing on the first shot is another level 10 thing. This still suggests that you may be using too small of an o-ring carrier. Try the next size up.

With a very small kinda intermittent leak down the barrel, try this: tighten or loosen you fiels strip screw a little. You should notice that the leak changes in intensity by doing this. It's due to a slight tolorance missalignment. I had this particular problem with one of my level 10 installments. I had hand tightened the thumb screw, then given it another turn w/ an allen wrench. It was too tight. About a quarter turn looser and the leak stopped. This is no big deal- - - just tighten or loosen the field strip screw. (note: the loosest you should ever have it is 'hand tight'. ) (p.s. this problem/ solution was originally addressed by Tom in the "official level 10 problems thread")




Carl

[edhu]

ok...i've oiled everything and switched o-rings that even looked a bit dark. and i can get it to shoot once..but during rapid fire...its one shot and 'fart' 'fart' 'fart'. but if i slow it up it fires.

someone said it is the piston in my retro valve. that mine might be old??
i did get a used retro from someone.
hhmm...if that person knew it wasn't working and sold it to me..that would be a bit shaaaady.

[Shirow]

ok...i've oiled everything and switched o-rings that even looked a bit dark. and i can get it to shoot once..but during rapid fire...its one shot and 'fart' 'fart' 'fart'. but if i slow it up it fires.

These all sound like lvl 10 problems, not retro problems. The 'farting' noise as you so eloquently put it :p is probably the bolt venting. I'm not sure why it would do it under rapid fire, but it sounds like it's sticking. Which size carriers have you tried, and is it oiled up good?

[Smokee_2_7]

I experienced this SAME problem with a level 10 kit installed in a retrovalve. Intrestingly enough, It was not the lvl 10 kit.

If you think about it, a mag w/ lvl 10 is pretty sensitive to pressure. You're balancing the air pressure behind the bolt with the pressure of the spring against the bolt. If for some reason the air pressure was a bit lower than what you had originally set it at, the its Very possible that the pressure of the spring might be too much for the pressure behind the bolt to overcome. the result? that 'farting' noise- - - the level 10 bolt firing, but like halfway through the stroke not being able to overcome the spring tension, so the bolt stops (like it hit a ball or your finger), vents, and re cocks.

Now, you said everything works fine if you fire slower. Could it be possible that you are experiencing some drop off in consistency from the flatline regulator? Yes. If the flatline reg is unable to recharge fast enough, there will be a certain point of rapid fire where the output from the tank just wont be high enough to have the gun force the bolt past the tension of the spring.


My course of action when I had this SAME problem about 2 weeks ago was to try my gun with another system. and, suprise suprise, everything worked beautifully. as soon as I went back to the flatline, Same problem. As long as I fired no more than 3-4 bps, the gun would fire. anything more, and levl 10 would kick in. Additionally, there was little to no kickback feeling in the trigger. (my flatline was set to about 950psi output). When I switched over to a different tank (crossfire 45/45 with a PRESET output of 850) all of a sudden the trigger felt incredible. It bounced against my finger. With a little practice, I could rip off 3 shot bursts with little to no effort. Under the most rapid fire conditions I could roduce, there were NO 'farts' of the level 10 kit. I had never experienced this on my retromags before. Then again, I had never used any other airsystems before.


So anyway my suggestion is that, before you do ANYTHING ELSE to the lvl 10 setup or to the gun, try hooking up a different airsystem to the marker. If the problem goes away, then it's definitly a problem with you airsystem, and not your marker.

[Smoken]

Smokee_2_7-- Sounds like you have a problem with your flatline. My gun used to act the same way you are describing. I gave my flatline a thorough servicing(following Black's instructions) and the difference was amazing. I may be wrong, but if your flatline is well used or you have ever played without a fill nipple cover thien this is probably your problem.

[edhu]

well i don't have access to another tank. but I will service my flatline according to the instructions on this tech section.

but for some reason its not the flatline or the air system could it be the piston? I was told that I have the older retro valve. Is there a way to tell?

thanks all for your info and help.

much appreciated...

[edhu]

i still had air in my tank so i thought i would switch to my old bolt and valve assembly before opening up my flatline.

now everything works fine with this setup so can I rule out the recharging issues w/my flatline? or b/c the LVL10 needs more pressure, I should still check my flatline?

[DaosBeoulve]

Still check your flatline.

You might just not be noticing any issues it's putting forth without the level 10 kit on it (shootdown, etc.)

[Smokee_2_7]

Smoken,

I did have problems with my flatline. I actually sent it in to AGD for service. When It came back, problem not fixed. I then Talked with BlackVCG here in the tech forum, and took it upon myself to work on the reg. I COMPLETELY rebuilt it, including removing the reg. from the bottle so I could clean areas normally not accessable (i.e. the reg spring, ect.) I also cleaned out the bottle to rid any dirt. Most of the o-rings that I found were extremely dirty(this is right after it came back from being 'serviced' by agd.) I spent about 3 hours cleaning EVERYTHING with dental picks, q-tips, and rubbing alcohol. it was filty inside. After a complete replacement of o-rings (AGD flatline parts kit), the tank seemed to perform better. However, the performane of the gun with the flatline STILL pales in comparison to the performance of the same gun with a different nitro system. Now this particular tank is having different issues (in addition to the crappy recharge- - - which are about to be addressed in a different thread in this forum.


edhu ,

Im not suprised to see that the 'problem' went away when you removed the level 10 kit. I believe that your second assumbtion is right, that "b/c the LVL10 needs more pressure, I should still check my flatline?"

My conclusion to this point has been that my flatline is unable to provide a flow rate that is sufficent to keep the gun at 'full pressure' during rapid fire. The retrovalve moves air so fast and the lvl 10 demands such a constant pressure (shot ny shot) that the flatline just cant keep up. When I put the tank on a regular AIR valve mag, everything seems to be fine. - - -- Im' not looking for any trigger bounce, I cant' shoot that gun as fast as i can mine, and there's no level 10 in it.



Now, with the reg. piston. in short, I doubt it. The symptoms of a 'old' or 'bad' reg piston is that it starts to bleed off before it should. People encounter this w/ lvl 10 because they have to turn up the velocity so much to get the gun to cycle that the reg. vents out the back before the gun will fire reliably. Usually occurs when people are trying to use the longest or middle spring (requires more pressure behind the bolt.)

If you are using the middle spring, and the gun will fire (although it's not rapid fire) without the reg. leaking out the back, I would think that your reg. piston would be fine. Im still going with the theory that your flatline is causing the problem.

I know you said that you dont have another airsystem to try out- -So definitly follow the flatline service instructions, and see if that helps.
Next time you are at the field, ask the guys in the shop if they will let you try out another air system. They probably will.




Carl

[methecoolguy]

Can someone please tell me why you cannot run co2 on the rt valve, is a anti-siphon tank okay? Please gimme feedback.

Thanks
paul

[edhu]

hey so if the flatline can't keep up...which tank do you guys recommend.

I've been looking at the air america tanks, centerflag tanks and the dynaflow. But they are kinda pricey. Will a PMI tank do the trick?


thanks

[personman]

Change to a larger carrier.. thats all I can think of..
Trust me, its not your flatline.
Make sure level 10 is installed correctally before you even look at your flatline.

[Shirow]

Trust me, its not your flatline.

How do you know that? I'd certainly try another tank if anything else had been checked.

To answer the original posters question, yes, a PMI tank would work fine. I personally recommend a Crossfire or a Nitroduck. Why don't you try to borrow a tank before you buy another one though, just to make sure it will fix your problem?