Is it cheating when... (not about salm, so don't bring it here)

[RamboPreacher]

I was wondering about something that had happened to me a few years ago in the National Indoors at Splat-1.

First let me give a short background... I play rec. ball almost exclusively and the occasioanl tournament, so when I play a tournament, I read the rules and make sure I know them, since they seem to change and be addendum'd (is that a word - hehehee) alot.

When playing rec. ball at the fields I play at, there is no such rule (nor have I heard of it up untill the incident at the splat1) that you couldn't put down your marker (or other equipment) and make a mad-dash-run for the flag, for points or the first-pull or whatever (especially if your marker stops functioning).

During the tournament, my marker stopped (later found out I had a chunk of something that had plugged the ASA, arghghghg - that'l NEVER happen again). for the situation, I felt that my best option was to get the flag-pul and at least get some points for the team.

I am no spring chicken, and as a back-player, not necessarily very fast either. I set down my marker and removed my pack. waited for the right moment and made a mad dash to the flag. I reached it and pulled it at the same time I was hit (I felt like I got the flag first, but I wasn't going to argue with the ref, that's his call, and I respect that)

Anyway, the flag was re-hung, and he asked me where my marker was, I told him back behind that bunker (pointing three bunkers down on the left tape line.) Bam. we got docked points!

He said it was against the rules to do that. I didn't argue since he was the ref. (no big deal for me, I had alot of fun trying it!) I have talked about this incident on other forums in the past, and the consensus was basicaly that there is a rule against it and that ignorance was no excuse.

However, I had done some research afterwards, and never did find any documented rule that said anything like that for that particular tournament (I had found it written for other tournaments, though, so I didn't fret too much, I assumed that they had "based" their rules on one of these others, though it wasn't specificaly stated.

any comments? Obviously it is too long ago to do anything about, but it was just interesting that I was told that I was "cheating" and I hadn't even a clue!

[Shirow]

Yes, you can't leave any equipment other than empty pods, rags or squeeges more than 5 feet away from your body.

[RamboPreacher]

so are you saying that there are "assumed" rules for every tournament?

[scarpa43]

Go to www.NPPL.com and look at section 10.25 in the rules.

"Players that separate from any piece of equipment or clothing that they brought onto the game field by more than 5 feet, except squeegees, rags or pods used in holding paintballs will be immediatly eliminated."

That is the what is says in the 2002 rules, I have no idea when that was added.

[FrAuStY]

I believe it's in the NPPL Rule book. It's like a poor sportsmanship rule. It can be considered "throwing" equipment, even though it wasn't thrown, it still exceeded the five ft perimeter rule. I think theres a thread on here the CPhillip quoted this outta the rulebook. I'll look around when I get some time and if I find it.. I'll post it. :D

[bofh]

Originally posted by RamboPreacher
so are you saying that there are "assumed" rules for every tournament?

Most tournaments use the NPPL rules with their own additions. Usually they will say what base rules they use.

NPPL rule 10.25 is the rule about leaving equipment behind.

I'd love to know why that's in there, however. :)

{edit: and while I write, two other people already answered it... gotta be quicker}

[RamboPreacher]

:)

As I posted eariler, I was already quoted this information, but as a noobee to tournaments (then), how was I supposed to know that, unless it was posted, printed or otherwise documented, for the event I was at. (I couldn't find it, in the flyer, rules, or website.)

And again, this is all water under the bridge. I have absolutely no problems with the call, and I believe that Randy B. puts on a great event!

[Kevmaster]

yeh, most all tourny series use a NPPL Rulebook with thier own modifications to them for their specific needs. as stated, the NPPL disalows leaving a gun behind

[shartley]

Originally posted by bofh
I'd love to know why that's in there, however. :)

There are a few different reasons I can think of.... but the base one might be to prevent one player using another player's marker in the case of a malfunction? Or maybe to keep the player and equipment a basic unit.... staying the same from start to finish of a game (minus ammo and pods)? And possibly others…. I personally don’t find the rule that bad no matter WHY it was put in place. ;)

... you brought it onto the field.. you keep it (again, aside from ammo and pods... not going to bother with squeegees and such... I think we all understand that one).

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by RamboPreacher
so are you saying that there are "assumed" rules for every tournament?

NO. The only rules that apply to tournaments are explicit. The interpretation is up to the head ref, and in your case, since I know who you were playing with, Randy Baxter. :)

the Nat. Indoors run on WPF rules now. I don't know if they ran on those rules in 2000. But I do remember reading them and finding "gaps." The WPF was new, and they didn't have an explicit rule about having more than one barrel on a marker, just that you could have one ball per barrel per trigger pull. Technically as long as only one ball came out of each barrel, we could use the Nasty.

Of course, Randy laughed at us and said something nasty of his own to the idea.

The event coordinator and the head ref are there to fill in what is necessary to make the rules work. Another case would be last year's world cup win by dynasty. They might not have won, but shock was penalized 12 points... the decision by the event staff.

[bofh]

Originally posted by shartley

There are a few different reasons I can think of.... but the base one might be to prevent one player using another player's marker in the case of a malfunction? Or maybe to keep the player and equipment a basic unit.... staying the same from start to finish of a game (minus ammo and pods)? And possibly others…. I personally don’t find the rule that bad no matter WHY it was put in place. ;)

... you brought it onto the field.. you keep it (again, aside from ammo and pods... not going to bother with squeegees and such... I think we all understand that one).

I supposed it would keep players from throwing a marker to each other... since Rule 5.51 allows players to exchange equipment. But they could throw pod to each other.

I don't really have an disagreement with the rule, however I'm always curious about why certain rules get made.

[shartley]

understood :)

[Shirow]

There are many reasons why that I can think of, some of them may not be real considerations but here are a couple:

What if you get shot in the gun and then leave it at a bunker and run away? If a ref didn't see it, when did it get shot, and does it count?

What if you leave your gun and someone from the opposing team steps on it and breaks it, falls over and breaks their neck? Who's fault is it?

The whole getting shot in the equipment thing is probably the main issue I think - it's a lot easier to resolve disputes about hits on equipment if you just make it illegal for people to drop it. Empty pods etc are a slightly different matter, obviously, but there is no need to leave your gun at the back bunker and run to the 50 (unless you're like RP and can't carry it, of course ;) )

The less ways there are for people to cheat, the better, and if you were allowed to dump any equipment, I'm sure we'd see marked equipment getting dumped very often.

[Strider]

I know most of the tournaments I've been too specifically say that you can't drop your equipment.

Actually, now that I think of it, it's usually mentioned in the captains meetings too. :)

Hehe, the no equipment "exchanging" might have been to prevent VM68 users from pummeling their opponents... Always said those things could be used as hand axes. :D

[FatMan]

It sounds like you fell victim to a problem I have seen many times. A lot of places that decide to run a tournament don't always provide a written copy of the rules, or at least make one available. Often this is because they don't have them and feel like they are familliar enough with them to run the tournament. Of course another big problem is that there is one not set of standard rules for the game.

I have done a lot of reffing, and when I run a tourney I make sure the rules are specified and provided in writing. Normally we use some variation of the NPPL rules, and in that case I provide a handout stating which version of the NPPL rules we are using, and exactly what rules we are modifying, extending, ignoring, or whatever (for example, the NPPL rules don't have a 3-man format). I also keep a complete printed copy at the field in case we need to look anything up. If issues come up, the rules are the law - and the ultimate ref decides how they are interpreted for the situation at hand. The field refs are the ones to say what THEY SAW on the field.

I have played several small tourneys where no rules were provided, we just used "tourney rules" or "NPPL" rules but without any further clarification. I think this opens the door for problems. The game shouldn't be about the field refs deciding what the rules are or should be, there should be one set of rules, and the calls should stick to them.

That doesn't mean you won't disagree with what the ref saw, but that is another issue entirely.

For example, Phil and I reffed a tourney. With 15 seconds in the game, one remaining player on a team ran for the flag, got to it, put his hand on it, but before he pulled it from the hanging place, was hit by a ball.

Phil was right there, saw the hit, called him out and did not award the pull. The player felt he should have been awarded the pull. I asked Phil - what did you see - and he told me "he got hit before the pull" and I asked him "he got hit before he reached the bunker?" he said "no, he got to the bunker grabbed the flag and was about to pull, but got hit before he pulled.

How did I (the ultimate) call the play?

I awarded the pull - according the rules, once a play has grabbed the flag, it is pulled. Phil didn't know that. I did. I looked it up on the spot to be sure.

It is rare I have seen that level of prefessionalism in reffing staff at smaller local tourneys - and that can lead to problems like the one described earlier in this thread.

Things to think about,

FatMan

[warpfeedmod]

Never having played a tourney I've got a question, could he have chosen to get on the field without any equipment altogether? Say if a team of 5 watns 4 men to lay paint and a 5th to just make the flag runs/etc?

[bofh]

Originally posted by warpfeedmod
Never having played a tourney I've got a question, could he have chosen to get on the field without any equipment altogether? Say if a team of 5 watns 4 men to lay paint and a 5th to just make the flag runs/etc?

Oddly enough, yes, you can go and play without a marker... looks like rule 3.28 says you can enter and play without a marker.

[athomas]

There are different variations of keeping your equipment or not. Many times, the ruling requires you to keep with you, any equipment that you start a game with. You may elect to start a game without a gun or pack. I have seen games where each player was chronoed 1 min before a start. If a gun was hot, you could line up as if to start with the gun, but had to put the gun down 10 sec prior to the start.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

You know what always makes me chuckle everytime i hear it? NPPL rules. What's the point? They should have an exemption at the end or something stating that if you play pro or simply are on good terms with the refs, most/all rules need not apply. Give me a break.

It's been my experience that refs just make things up as they go along. Whether it's in the rules or not. Obviously we're only human and make mistakes, but more often than not, it's slightly rediculous. Refs of good quality are really hard to come by. Not that they don't exist, but they're far and few between.

[Trunnion]

although i don't have much personal experience with tourny paintball, i've never heard of any ref actually making use of the 3 for 1 penalty for wiping a hit as stated in 12.12

[Kevmaster]

heres what i love:
in my 3 Man series, the official rulebook has a the infraction of wiping being a 3 for 1..... think about it. how are they going to pull 3 men plus 1 when there are only 3 men TOTAL??

so, not everything is perfect(oh and this is Force of Nature's series so its somewhat respectable)

[Trunnion]

the NPPL rules cover that in rule 12.53: "Assessments of one-for-one, two-for-one, and three-for-one penalties when no livce players are left will result in the opposing team being credited with that number of live players that would have been eliminated from the offending team had there been players available for such enforcement, until such opposing team would be credited to full strength."
i'm not sure how your tournament's rules cover this, but i would assume they have a similar ruling.

[Paintchucker]

Originally posted by Strider
I know most of the tournaments I've been too specifically say that you can't drop your equipment.



I haven't played in tournaments in years, but that was pretty much understood when I played. BTW, my team took 17th at the Indoors in 1995!!! It was our first tourney together!

[RamboPreacher]

Other than this thread, everywhere else I had posted this (it's been a while now), this is exactly the kind of responce I got, over and over again "pretty much understood" as a rule. :rolleyes: just asking for trouble if you ask me.

Thanks for everyone's responces. I feel better now that I don't think I am a cheeter (after all these years). ;)

[Vendetta]

I don't see why you got docked points if the understood rule is that a player is eliminated when he drops his equipment. I think you got hosed.:mad:

[Trunnion]

in my opinion, if the rule you got eliminated for is NOT in the documented rules or is not referenced to(like, "as in NPPL rule *enter number*"), then they shouldn't be able to call you out for it. ignorance is no excuse, that's true, which is why their failure to specifically state the rule themselves shouldn't cause your elimination. it's a bit of a loophole, but it's really their fault and not your's. but that's just my opinion.

[FutureMagOwner]

i could see a couple reasons why. first while trying to toss your gun you could "accidentally" over throw it and hit someone on the other team in the head and kill them or cause some type of injury and if you throw your gun(like you seem some teams do) you compromise that tank and it could potentially blow with who knows what will happen as a result

[hitech]

Originally posted by Trunnion
If the rule that you got eliminated for is NOT in the documented rules, or is not referenced to (as in NPPL rule *enter number*), then they shouldn't be able to call you out for it.

I would have to agree. You did NOT violate any of the rules. How can you be out/penalized? BTW, there are no "unwritten" rules. If they are "unwritten" they don't exist!

[SHOCKER1050]

happened to me too..only mine was accidently...it was a local tourney and we made the semifinals...off the break i went dashing to the 50, and the hopper on the gun i was using(black magic cocker-not mine) went flying in the air when i slid lol. Newayz...i got pulled...it wasnt cool..specially since it was 3 man and with 3 man every guy counts...lost us the game and a chance to take away some pretty cool prizes...owell
john

[pballguy17]

Hm... the NPPL rules say, only pds/squeeges/rags, can b left behind 5 feet? what about paintballs? every paintball u fire leaves 5 feet, y aren't u pulled hehehe. also what if i'm rnuning from the braek to the fifty, and my hopper isn't on tight, falls of at the 20, and i keep runing to the fifty, not noticnig my hopper? does that mean i'm out? also, since u can exchange equipment, can on person hold two guns? what if u tied ur opds togther an made a wall outta ur pods? if the wall can't b used, can pods that are thrown b shot for a elimantion? i.e. i throw a pod out of my bunker, and someone shoots my pod, am i out? wht about my "pod wall".


P.S. i'm just toying with NPPl, plz don't take me seroiusly ;)