New York Paintball Ban?

[Automaggin2]

- By Barbara Stewart, Courtesy of The New York Times

Sports Authority Inc., a chain of sports-equipment stores, was cited by the city yesterday for selling imitation semiautomatic machine guns that are strikingly similar to the real thing, the Department of Consumer Affairs said.

"These are very dangerous," Gretchen Dykstra, the consumer affairs commissioner, said yesterday morning as she stood outside a Manhattan Sports Authority store with two of the black aluminum-and-plastic guns displayed on the sidewalk. "People have been walking by and looking at these and saying, `They've got real guns!' "

The fake weapons violate a New York law forbidding the sale or ownership of imitation guns that are realistic-looking and are painted black or gray. To be legal, an imitation gun must be unmistakably fake, she said, and must be either brightly colored, fancifully shaped or both.

The imitation semiautomatics, which are called markers, are not meant to be children's toys, and are used for the war game paintball — a cross between capture the flag and a skirmish exercise, in which players try to make it to home base without being blasted by pellets filled with fluorescent goo.

The imitation weapons are neither inexpensive nor simple. The cost of one on display yesterday was $250, and descriptions on the box said it was powered by a carbon dioxide device, had a range of 150 feet and included features like sighting devices and a quick-release feeder for ammunition.

The imitation semiautomatics at the Sports Authority stores in Queens were discovered by happenstance, when a city employee noticed an advertisement for one in the newspaper. The city has issued subpoenas to Tippman Pneumatics Inc. in Indiana and Kingman International Corporation in California, which make the guns in the Queens store, to see if they are being sold in other New York stores.

A hearing for Sports Authority has been scheduled for Nov. 8. The company could face fines as high as $200,000.

Frank Bubb, a Sports Authority spokesman, said sales of the imitation guns had been suspended in the Queens stores.

"This is the first time anything like this has ever come up," he said. "I don't know of any other state or city with a law like that. We intend to cooperate with New York in any way we can."

Ms. Dykstra said: "Even if it weren't illegal to possess these, it completely violates common sense. Look at them. Could they look more real? They're really scary. Can you imagine what would happen if somebody went out on the street or down in the subway carrying one of those things?"

http://www.paintballchannel.com/browse.php?mod=article&opt=view&id=68&style=details

[spazzed]

http://www.automags.org/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=129770&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Already got one of these ;)

[hostage]

If I was walking threw the city and someone held up a custom 98 to me and said give me all your money, I would start laughing.

See this lady is mostlikely, looking for attention or she is stupid. She wants attention so she can get popularity for ridding the city of these "really scary" guns. If I wanted to rob someone with a gun that wouldn't cause harm, I would go make my own out wood or how hard would it be to get a toy gun and spray paint it black? Sigh why do things like this happen in NY. I totally disrespect ideas like this. I have a better idea, lets replace all the politions and with intelligent people. Imagine the world being led by smart people :-)
-Hoistage

[TippmannMan]

dont get me wrong i hated that article as you could see by referring to my post in response to the original thread. but one thing to consider is that not everyone plays paintball my friend. i know my neighbors got antsy when i shoot my gun in the backyard for the first time. you have to realize that there are so many uninformed people out there that you can never assume.

[einhander619]

Just another reason to spring for a nice anno or powdercoat! But in the meantime, someone should kick her in the bean for being so quick to jump to conclusions.

[speedyejl]

OMG, I'm going to have to make some phone calls. My friend is an editor at the times. He has often told me stories about poor reporters under him. They like to write alot of yellow, or sensational writing. I'll see if he knows this Barbra Stewart.

[MagDog68]

NYC Law forbids the sale of air powered guns - period. That's why no KMARTS sell any paintball equipment in the city but half a mile into Long Island ever store has Rifles, Pellet guns and yes Paintball Markers.

~Fred

PS NYC is a pain in the *** - other than Quebec City this is the only city in the world that disallows making rights on red too!

[AGD]

This is the tip of the iceberg. The new guns like the A5 DO look real and in my opinion are going to cause more problems like this. You have to take into account that NY cops don't have time to figure out if its a fake gun or not.

Don't blame them if someone gets killed.

AGD

[theraidenproject]

I will see what I can do for paintball's portrayal in the Times, ie, negative language like, "war game" and "imitation guns", etc. I might also be able to get paintball some positive press in the Times, more on this if it pans out.

[Danz]

Greetings.

It figures, my first post on AOG and the subject is how bad the paintball situation is in NYC. This news does not come as any surprise to native New York paint slingers. We have had to deal with this kind of one sided thinking in respects to our favorite past time for years. In fact, our beloved former Mayor Rudy G. once issued a warning to some of the top paintball distributors that legal action would be taken if they so much as sold a single paintball in NYC. A fact I discovered when trying to place an order for a marker with I&I Sports. Anyone living in the five boroughs, must take the hike to Staten Island, Long Island or upstate New York to be where the paint can fly with out some one trying to make a name for themselves at our expense. Marker bags and cases are not optional gear. They are just as important as a good goggle system for our safety and the peace of mind of local law enforcement. No problem. Its just hard not to feel a little picked-on. We have some great fields (outdoor & Indoor) just about an hour’s drive away. (So there!) We New Yorkers will not be denied! You can have my marker when you pry it out of my paint soaked hands!

Danz

[hardr0ck68]

here is where rec ballers cause dammage to our sport, there desire for markers that look like firearms and make them feel like rambo will attract attention from sad sad politicians who are tryin to get noticed. do the sad sad politicians have a case? yea.. like Tom said ploice arnt gonna stop and ask "is that a real gun your pointing at me??" at IAO just down form the AGD booth there was a vender tryin to sell cheap plastic add ons that make a marker look like a M-16 and other firearms. This will be as much a stumbeling block for paintball as pros who belive cheating is part of the game. our sport is on the verge of something big, either were gonna break into the world of x-sports, get air time on espn, and a shot at the olympics. Or were gonna end up on the news channel as a 5 min. blip about the "para-militant" sport that was and a stepping stone for some politician tryin to get elected to a comfy chair.

*Edit* my brother who was a strong tippy fan will never buy another product from them because of there new markers look. they have the rec market in there pocket with it, but dont they care about out sports futher? to me it seems like there wizzin in there bed at noon, not thinkin about what its gonna be like come midnight.

[Trunnion]

i myself strongly disagree with those people who claim that the tippmann A5 hurts paintball as a sport. i have no problem at all with paintball guns that look like firearms, so long as they remain on the paintball field. i have a friend who has an A5 with an rt trigger, and it's a very nice paintball gun, especially for scenario and woods games. it doesn't even look that much like an MP5 with the hopper, barrel, and tank attached. even without them, the feeder drum is still pronounced and noticable. people aren't going to stop thinking of paintball as a war game just because the paintball guns don't look like firearms. you'll never get away from the fundamental fact that paintball guns shoot projectiles.

[Danz]

We are dealing with perceptions. The first time I ever saw an A5 ad, I was intrigued. Not since the 68 Special has Tippmann released such a sweet looking package. The reality is that much of the draw of these markers is their resemblance to real fire arms. To players, its all good. Great looks, Tippmann reliability & a fair price. But to the non-player, it just reenforces fears and misconceptions about what our sport is all about. I personally stayed away from things like bright anno jobs and flashy jeresys in favor of plain black anno and my camos. The fact is that bright anno jobs & flashy jeresys are two very important elements that will help grow our sport in the future. The less we look like soldiers and the less our markers look like real guns, the brighter the future will be for all of us. Its simply a matter of perceptions.

P.S. – I now own & wear a jersey when playing.

Danz

[Hexis]

hardr0ck68 what's wrong with rec ballers? How can you say that "they" want paintball guns that look like real guns? I'm a hard core rec baller. I have never played in a tourney. I don't really like speed ball, and I love woods ball. Take a look here to see my marker: http://www.hxxl.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album10&id=aaa&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php All of my close paintball friends have similar setups. No one has a "realistic" marker. Lay off the rec baller hate. Just because somone plays a different style of paintball doesn't make them wrong.

[raehl]

Your paintball marker should never be in plain sight in public. Period.

And we shouldn't be opposed to laws that ban carrying paintball markers around outside of carrying cases. You shouldn't be walking down the street with a paintball marker.

And retailers need to respect no-airgun-sales laws, just as much as we need to make sure they never get enacted, and try and repeal the ones that are there.

I havn't had a chance to look into this particular situation yet, but if a real bill to further restrict paint guns in new york ever hits a legislature we'll be there to make sure it doesn't happen. Most people are reasonable about paintball equipment nowadays. Especially if you complain about how the law will affect the local college paintball club. ;)


- Chris

[Dubstar112]

I hate any paintball gun that looks militaristic. I hate them because I know those are the guns that some jerk will buy and try to be a rambo hunting around his neighborhood ect.

I live in NY, I dont play paintball any more. But, I will stand in support of this sport.

We need to email this news group, and say somthing not rude, but in a polite tone in our defense.


Your paintball marker should never be in plain sight in public. Period.

And we shouldn't be opposed to laws that ban carrying paintball markers around outside of carrying cases. You shouldn't be walking down the street with a paintball marker.

These are good points. I dont have time to elaborate now though :)(Im in class)

[speedyejl]

http://store2.yimg.com/I/proteam_1708_6029036
http://store2.yimg.com/I/proteam_1708_6716255
http://shop.paintballarmory.com/mmarmory/Images/WG75RIS2.JPG
http://shop.paintballarmory.com/mmarmory/Images/WG65A2.JPG
http://shop.paintballarmory.com/mmarmory/Images/ARM-WG65C.JPG

Got to go, I will post later but I think pictures say enough. One more thing, my friend said the other day a cop wont care. Does my cocker look like a gun? Think about a what happens if some 50yr old woman sees you who has no experince with paintball and gets scared ****less. Yea shes gonna call the cops.

[shartley]

I have always maintained that realistic looking markers are not a good thing for the sport in general. However, I have always maintained that it is up to the individual owner to own one or not.

With that said, I have to say that “paintball bans” are not always as evil as some folks would like to make them out to be. Let me explain my way of thinking….

One shoe does not fit all. What is good for Small Town, Iowa may not be good for Big City, NY. The same as going 65MPH is fine and well on a major highway, but NOT good for your residential street. Why? The situations are not the same. So should we get all upset that some roads have different standards than others? I don’t think so.

Oh, but some would say that reducing speed is not the same as BANNING… well, I know roads in almost every community that it is illegal to DRIVE down them. That would in essence be a BAN on Driving.

As for stores not being allowed to sell the markers, such is life. If people think you can not only open a store anywhere you want and sell whatever you want, you are sadly mistaken. This can be on a large scale, or even by complex/street. For instance, one of my clients has a very popular paintball business. One of their stores is in a pretty nice location. But the battle to find and get that location was not easy.

You see, depending on Zoning, you are limited to what kind of store or business you put on a specific location. Thus, in essence paintball stores (as well as many other types of stores) are BANNED from certain areas already. My client put their store in a complex zoned for businesses that “service” what they sell. Since they do service their markers, they fit the criteria. But guess what? If they had a general sports shop selling all sorts of equipment (to include paintball markers) but did not service any of it (as a good deal of sporting stores do not) they would NOT have been able to put their store at that location.

Hmmmmm

And this is only ONE of many legal issues that face businesses. I can also assure folks that if you do things RIGHT and fully follow the laws, this is a small issue to deal with compared to what else you have to deal with.

It is the same with many of these “banning paintball” threads. Folks want to look at things as black and white, and that one solution or law should apply to ALL areas, no matter what the actual situation may be. And I personally do not find that “bans” in one area are always EVIL or not warranted.

For those that say that if it gets banned in one area it will make it easier to get banned EVERYWHERE.. bah… believe it or not, there are countless laws in some communities that are NOT in others. It is up to those IN the particular community to make sure the laws in place are good for THEIR community, no matter what the next town has. It is a part of our social obligation and dare I say duty.

It is those who live in the particular communities, enforce laws in those communities, etc. that should know best what will be best for THEIR communities. The rest of us may assist in providing input, or supplying facts about a particular issue or sport, but since we do not LIVE there, we don’t know how any one decision will impact that community. And how one rule impacts one community, does not mean it would impact another in the SAME way. This is my point.

If Laws were NOT meant to reflect the community they cover, or those in that community, then we would not need different Laws for different places…. We could all sit down and make ONE set of laws. But people are NOT the same in all communities. The needs and the demographics are NOT the same in all Communities. The way folks ACT in all Communities are NOT the same. Thus the Laws reflect that.

Before anyone can truly pick up a pitchfork and start building the pyre, ALL the facts need to be known. Sure, this reeks of political wrangling to make an issue for Election Time Fervor…. But those IN the communities would know better than those of us sitting on the outside looking in. And as was already stated, much of this issue has already been in place.. for quite a while. To me, looking from the outside and not doing any actual research, it seems like Politicians yelling to enforce laws already ON the books, more than making new laws.

I agree, we should be very careful what laws we let get passed. And we can actually get current laws OFF the books if we choose. But before we get all riled up about things, it is our responsibility (if indeed we want to BE responsible) to know all the facts and situations are. And if you think the author of that article was ONLY wrong about what he wrote about Paintball, I would think again. LOL Good chances are, a good deal of it is wrong, or misleading at best. But it makes good reading, and causes folks to get riled up…. Which sells papers, or causes you to watch certain stations, etc. ;)

Remember the “Season of the Shark”? ;) Yup, there was accurate reporting of attacks, but the increased reporting of the issue did not mean the issue was WORSE than it had ever been…. In fact, the number of actual attacks wend DOWN…. But it made good “press”.

[Sledgehammer]

Magdog68: You got a pretty small world eh? I know no country in Europe where it's legal to make rights on red... :p

[SlartyBartFast]

Very good points Shartley. Refreshing to see some balanced perspective on the issue.


PS/OT: Sledgehammer:Says that you're from Germany so I thought you would know better. Munich has right turns on red at designated intersections. They actually do it better than the US or Canada because you can only turn right on red when there's a little sign with a green arrow installed next to the red signal light.

[Sledgehammer]

LOL, yeah, but only when there's the sign...
Which is about the only good idea we adopted from the East Germans when the two Germanys were reunified...

[Vendetta]

And if you think the author of that article was ONLY wrong about what he wrote about Paintball, I would think again. LOL Good chances are, a good deal of it is wrong, or misleading at best. But it makes good reading, and causes folks to get riled up…. Which sells papers, or causes you to watch certain stations, etc

I have never read any article in any paper about something I knew about, that did not have mistakes. Has anyone ever been quoted in the paper out there? Where you quoted correctly. I bet 80% to 90% were misquoted or taken out of context.

[cledford]

Originally posted by AGD
This is the tip of the iceberg. The new guns like the A5 DO look real and in my opinion are going to cause more problems like this. You have to take into account that NY cops don't have time to figure out if its a fake gun or not.

Don't blame them if someone gets killed.

AGD

Tom,

According to the New York law all of your markers (with the exception of the new extremes) are just a guilty as the A5. The law specifically states black or gray colored markers are considered "very dangerous." I realize that you, as a manufacturer who could be financially impacted by further restrictions on paintball markers, may feel uncomfortable with Tippmann's design. On the other hand I maintain that it's not the people in the industry causing the problem - it's those that make the bad laws and everyone who allows them to become enacted. Obviously, virtually anyone would think that the Tippmann looks real, but I submit most (especially including anyone bent on banning paintball) would say that your markers do as well. In fact, only paintballers would likely know the difference between one of your markers and a real firearm. So what/who is really causing the problem? Dennis Tippmann, who's markers have looked like real guns since the SMG-60 (released back in the late 80's), or Rosie's legion of "million moms" who think that the world can be saved and violence stamped out by banning anything that they think is potentially "violent" or looks "scary." You've been in the industry as long as I've been playing, what do you think? Personally I never remember (since I started in '88) anyone trying to ban anything paintball related until the last 5 years - once paintball moved from a specialty sport (that required purchasing from a dedicated dealer) to one that could be found in Wal-mart. That was about the time I saw the average age of the player drop into the early-teens and the sports population explode.

I stand by what I've always said, there are no "bad" markers - those who would ban our sport are not interested in making any distinctions unless it is *presently* convenient to their agenda. The more we allow them to influence trends in our sport the more they realize their control and will use it against us. The type who are against paintball have shown a long history of the proverbal "camel nose inside the tent" method of control - they incrementally chip away at rights (using so called "common sense" legislation) that they couldn't destroy in one fell stroke. Make no mistake that their desired outcome is the same (total ban) - they are just using the most productive/palatable (to the average Joe) means to their end. Today it might be banning black and gray, tomorrow it will be anything with a pistol grip...

(This comment is not directed to Tom, but everyone) I've seen a great deal of division and finger pointing within OUR community regarding realistic markers and those (primarily scenario players) who enjoy them. It amazes me that anyone who plays paintball (and would like to see it remain legal) would point fingers and write off those BRETHREN WITH THEM (in their desire to see the sport remain legal and who actively support paintball through extensive purchases) in favor of THOSE WHO WOULD HAVE IT BANNED. This "divide and conquer" strategy (playing one faction against another) has worked quite well for them in the past and you can bet that they'll use it again. Anyone pointing fingers at the mil-sim guys are playing right into the game plan of the antis. I've said this before, but it bears repeating, if you think that the antis only want the "scary looking black guns" and not the pink, hello-kitty (20bps) Emag you are completely mistaken.

Just my 2 cents...

-Calvin

[Paintchucker]

Originally posted by raehl
Your paintball marker should never be in plain sight in public. Period.

And we shouldn't be opposed to laws that ban carrying paintball markers around outside of carrying cases. You shouldn't be walking down the street with a paintball marker.


- Chris


I would tend to agree. If someone is shot by a cop while carrying a paintball gun, you should ask why were they using it in an offensive manner. You would have to be an idiot to point any kind of weapon at the police...

[Vendetta]

Great 2 cents Cledford.

[Sledgehammer]

cledford: Actually there were earlier tries to ban it even in the US. I don't remember the year and I don't remember the state (I do think it was new Jersey though). It must have been quite a while ago since the Paintballs where still filled with an oil-based paint.
Jessica Sparks and Bud Orr (among others) testified in a trial. Bud Orr had even built a WGP Sniper modified to shoot .50 cal. paintballs since in that state everything above .60 caliber was considered an "extremely destructible device".

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by Sledgehammer
Magdog68: You got a pretty small world eh? I know no country in Europe where it's legal to make rights on red... :p


Oh Fine Mr Smarty pants - a left then! I was trying to make a point - like anyone really cares where u can turn blah blah blah....:)


And as far as Paintballing in NYC is concerned - It is a big ol' pain in the BUTT, however we understand that our city is unique in many ways and that certain things must be regulated. I still play in Brooklyn, I just don't do it legally.

~me

[hitech]

Originally posted by cledford
Personally I never remember (since I started in '88) anyone trying to ban anything paintball related until the last 5 years...

I believe that paintball WAS banned from either an entire state or a large part of a state. I'm not sure which, but I think it was Illinois. It was in the '80s, so it may have been before you started. It really can happen.

[Vendetta]

I still play in Brooklyn, I just don't do it legally.

Where do you play in Brooklyn ilegally? Is there a game in Greenwood Cemetary i'm missing:D

[MinimagRockin']

I'm not a big fan of the real looking paintguns because they don't really do anything special...it's all looks, but I don't think they hurt the sport and I don't think they should be banned. If someone walked down the street with one of those in plain view he should be expecting the cops to be called as well as someone with a cocker or mag or any paintball gun should. It doesn't matter if it looks real or not people don't know any better and will call the cops regardless.

[Rooster]

"The fact is that bright anno jobs & flashy jeresys are two very important elements that will help grow our sport in the future. The less we look like soldiers and the less our markers look like real guns, the brighter the future will be for all of us. Its simply a matter of perceptions. "

This is a pure load of you know what. Paintball owes everything it has now to those guys in camos shooting black guns. The limitation to paintball as a ligitimate sport isn't people scared of woods ball players. Why is trap shooting and archery an olympic sport? Why isn't skateboarding? Its all about whos playing the game. Until paintball does some house cleaning, gets rid of the distractions, and gets rid of cheating teams permently, paintball will never be a mainstream sport. If you want to blame someone for paintballs status as a game, and not as a ligitimate sport, you need to look to the pro teams first, the tourny teams second, and rec ballers last. Blaming military guns for paintballs lack of status is a joke, and so is anyone who beleives this is why paintball is still just a game.

[Danz]

“This is a pure load of you know what. Paintball owes everything it has now to those guys in camos shooting black guns”.


First off, let me say that I was one of those guys in camo, shooting a black marker in the woods. I was playing this game when constant air was a “new fangled idea”. The comment was made not to disrespect the history of the game or the players committed to it. It was made to illustrate the fact that main stream acceptance of our sport is the goal. That one day a paintball fan should be able to go into a “Modell’s” and buy his/her favorite teams jersey off the rack, just like any other sports apparel. This game is in its adolescence at best, as shown by the antics at the World Cup. Things will change. Thing must change. If that’s a pure load of you know what, hold your nose.

Danz

[Rooster]

I was playing back when the six pack was an amazing thing, and I'm still playing that game today. As I said before, there is a reason trap shooting and archery is an olympic sport and skateboarding and supercross isn't. It all has to do with who is playing the game. The type of gun has zero to do with any part of that.

[raehl]

It has something to do with trap shooting and archery being sports back in the early 1900's when the olympics were first (re)started? Sports with hundreds of years of tradition?


- Chris

[cledford]

Originally posted by Danz
[BI It was made to illustrate the fact that main stream acceptance of our sport is the goal. That one day a paintball fan should be able to go into a “Modell’s” and buy his/her favorite teams jersey off the rack, just like any other sports apparel.
Danz [/B]

Not to be confrontational - but who's goal is this? It may be the manufacturers (they've got a lot of potential profit riding on it) but is it everyone's? It's not mine. I've been enjoying paintball for almost 15 years and could care less about the mainstream acceptance you speak of, especially if it requires "cutting deals." I'll go as far as to say (again not trying to pick on you) that going into a Modell's to buy a Pro team's Jersey is totally unrelated to our sport and if that is they type of enjoyment a person seeks why not buy an existing football or baseball jersey? Just what does mainstream acceptance mean to our sport anyhow? In conversations with Tom I got the impression that paint prices aren’t likely to go much lower, and nether will the cost of a well made marker. Most innovations (like constant air, agitating hoppers, and even semi autos) came from player’s garages – so technology is not likely to be affected. Maybe TV coverage? Personally, I’d rather enjoy the sport, as I’ve known it, then compromise it just to watch someone else play it on Monday night.

We are on a slippery slope right now that could potentially lead to mainstream acceptance of paintball (a very small chance in my opinion) but is much more likely to lead to the destruction of our sport as we know it. It already has completely evolved away from where it started (woods/ survival based games) with tournament an XBall formats but those aren’t the big changes I'm worried about. What scares me is that today we seem all to very willing to ban modes on gun, limit BPS, or move away from “bad” colors (like black, gray or olive drab) to appease those outside our sport, but does it stop there? What happens when those who are “just trying to keep things safe” decide that anything more then 2 bps is unsafe because a “stream of paint can lift a mask off”, or electronic guns are fine, but trigger pulls under 4-5 pounds are unsafe? (This is a standard on defensive firearms to insure there are no “accidental” shootings – why not insure that paintguns only go off when intended as well?) How about a “finding” that anything over .50 caliber paint is “unsafe” because of the weight of the projectile that can cause tissue damage (that among other things has potentially already been linked already to breast cancer), can lift a mask off, or multiple hits (in the order of 13-16 a second) could possible shoot through a goggle system at minimum distance? How about a requirement that markers not have a pistol grip and instead resemble a “wand” so they won’t be mistaken for real guns? What if there was a requirement that players couldn’t get within 15 feet of each other – regardless of what impact this has on the game? As far fetched as these things seem right now, I can guarantee that they won’t seem far-fetched to the average Joe who doesn’t play paintball – especially when presented in the “common sense” fashion that do-gooders who are just trying “to make paintball safe” will use. Even if some of these “safety” issues mentioned above are actually hype (like the paintball weight issue) does that mean that they won’t make a difference? We can’t even dispel hype from within our sport or get players to recognize BS, how will we get those outside our sport to recognize it? What if it wasn’t hype? Someone might argue that with speeds of under 200fps that the chance of a permanent eye injury is SIGTNIFCANTLY reduced – and they might be right. But will the sport continue if we are restricted to speeds that wouldn’t allow paint to break at a reasonable distance? Could such a restriction be proposed by someone claiming to want to “keep things safe” but who in reality just wants to make the sport unplayable so that it goes away?

A lot of people think that many of these issues have already been worked out with the agreements with the ASTM – I just hope that the agreements that we “think” exist are stuck to and not “changed” (reneged on for the good of all) later. I guess my point is that “mainstream” acceptance of our sport brings with it the requirement that we deal with the “devil”; I just hope that people realize that such dealings don’t necessarily turn out like they think they will.

I hope that no one takes this as an attack. I just think I see this in a perspective that needs to be expressed.

-Calvin

[raehl]

You're complaining that the sport is changing too much, and then say it's because people are making rules against the manufacture of equipment that didn't even exist in the sport until 5 years ago?

Either you want the sport to remain the same, in which case we should all be playing pump in the woods, or you want it to evolve, in which case some agreed-upon restrictions are necessary to prevent the wholesale outlawing of the sport in general.


Oh, and paintball has not moved FROM the woods. The vast majority of paintball is still played in the woods, and a LOT more paintball is played in the woods now than was 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 22 years ago, when it was 12 buddies with nelspots.

Just because there are MORE ways to play paintball doesn't mean the sport is losing the old ways. It's just becoming a broader phenomenon.


- Chris

[ogre55]

On the other hand, with mainsteam acceptance we move away from such incidents as have happened here, in my home town. Some moron with too much time on her hands decided that it would be good politics to make a stand againt warmongering paintballers, so without any legal backing this idiot decides to raid sports authority.

Many other sports that are accepted as mainsteam are much more dangerous than paintball. Football and boxing are the most obvious examples, but better one is baseball. Pitchers throw that ball at 70, 80, even 90 mph, at guys whering nothing more than a helmet and cup for protection. Now baseballs don't break when they hit a bat, a glove, or some batter's back/leg/arm/head/face. Valid comparison, no? And yet baseball is "America's Pastime" , while we are maligned and ridiculed in public.

As for do-gooders, overregulating the sport, I haven't seen a baseball player walk out to the plate in full body armor and facemask yet, and frankly, I don't think I will be seeing it any time soon.

Ogre

[cledford]

Originally posted by ogre55

As for do-gooders, overregulating the sport, I haven't seen a baseball player walk out to the plate in full body armor and facemask yet, and frankly, I don't think I will be seeing it any time soon.
Ogre

Baseball players don't use guns to shoot each other as part of the sport. We can call it tag with a "marker" as much as we like, but don't think that is going to impress a million-mom marcher looking to use what ever means possible to curb our sport - one I'll wager her very own son probably (in her mind) has an unhealthy affinity for.

I appreciate you previous post - it was very helpful. This one contains an argument that doesn't take important considerations such as the social stigma associated with the main piece of playing equipment or the means of play (eliminating each other). The simple fact is that there are many mainstream sports out there that can be more dangerous - but that is not my point. I submit that there are those out there more then willing to use the "safety" angle to get rid of our past time. They’ve already tried other means to this end; I haven’t seen anyone ever trying to get rid of baseball...

-Calvin

[Danz]

Hey dude,

It seems we have more in common that I first realized. Its always good to hear from an “Old School Player”. I appreciate your frankness but, I’m not sure I understand your point about “who is playing the game”. Please explain. My Rec-ball team consists of one graphic designer, one lawyer, one engineer, two architects, one retired army officer and a prep chief.

Danz

[ogre55]

Cledford:

You are correct. The stigma attached to paintball is as great as the stigma attached to deer hunting, or any number of other shooting sports. I have made the same argument both on and offline. It is exactly for that reason that I say mainstreaming the sport is the best way to go.
Get rid of the stigma by making people more aware of just what it is we really do.

The only difference between you and me is that, while you believe that we need to stay out of the public radar for fear of attracting too much attention, I think that we need to get as big as possible, making sure the whole time that the sport and those that play it are portrayed in the best light possible.

And as for your "divide and conquer" argument you were right when you qouted Frankin (in another thread). "We all hang together, or we all hang seperately".

Ogre

[Vendetta]

Is there a stigma on hunting? How many hunting show do you see on TV? Also doesn't the same Sports Authority that got raided also carry tons more hunting equipment? I for one don't approve a killing animals, but I find no problem in shooting non-toxic paintball at well protected people doing the same to me.

[madmatt151]

Well, I have read allt hese posts and I think the guys who live in NYC like myself know the problems. THe fields are am hour away minimum, and there is a stigma associated with paintball. In NYC there is a stigma associated with anything involving shooting. People who live in NYC and hunt aren't very prolific. Also, they are looked at funny. I am not a person who hunts, but I won't judge anyone who does, but that isn't the case with most people living in NYC. The laws are understandable in NYC about not carrying paiontball markers etc., but the problems we are having with getting markers shipped to us and such is getting overzealous. If a person is having a marker shipped to them, its not the same as going into a Modell's or Sports Authority and buying a "weapon". I don't like the current laws in that I have to worry about carrying my paintball gear and fear of getting pulled over for a traffic ticket and getting in trouble for having my stuff with me. As far as the stigma, we run around shooting at other people, its that simple. No matter what kind of marker you use, or how you dress, that will not change the way people look at us. I have been playing for over 10 years, and the perception of the sport has changed a little, mainly due to exposure. More people are coming out to the fields and playing on weekends, you have companies sponsoring games for thier employees as teambuilding exercises and it is slowly becoming a mainstream type sport. Will it be like baseball or football antime soon, probably not, but we shouldn't hide either. I am a teacher and I know that peoples viewpoints only change through exposure and education. If someone knows nothing about a particular subjects, then they will not react to it in a rational manner.

Just my longwinded $.02

[SlartyBartFast]

Thiking more about Shartley's well balanced post and all the other points in this and other "Paintball Banned" threads made me think of the following.

The absolutely first thing we have to do as a community is to stop blkitzing into a knee-jerk reaction of "PAINTBALL IS BEING BANNED!!!" every time there is a paintball bylaw proposed somewhere.

Secondly, we must NEVER divide anybody into US vs. THEM. I think one of the best lines I've heard yet from the show West Wing was last night.


Very few issues are black and white, and most of those involve body counts.

Many of the paintball bans that have been decried do indeed go over the line and past reasonable controls. The error of the person proposing it of making the issue black and white. Paintballers jumping in without looking at the complexities of the issue just confirm to the people pushing for the law and those that must decide that the issue IS black and white. Unfortunately, any gray issue that argued black OR white will invariably be classified as Black and be sanctioned. Why? If the choice is Pro-paintball or Anti-paintball and you want to stop kids shooting in local parks or at cyclists etc, then the choice is clearly anti-paintball.

To stop overregulation or banning of paintball altogether, there should be acceptable limits and circumstances agreed apon by the paintball community.

Such as:
1- Only transporting markers in carry bags or cases.
2- Fines penalties for discharging a paintball marker on/over city/public spaces without permission.

The two above should be no-brainers. If there was a list and criteria developed, we could come to a friendly compromise with each comunity that has a problem with paintball.

PS: Great point Raehl. Edited my post to agree with you...

[raehl]

#2 should read "Fines for discharging markers on/over city/public places WITHOUT PERMISSION."

Big difference. There's plenty of quite legitimate paintball played on city/public places. I'd hate to never be able to play at Soldier Field because it's owned by Chicago.


- Chris

[Danz]

Just an Idea.

I wonder if it could be made mandatory for a manufacturer to sell a marker with some sort of bag or case for transport. I realize that this wont stop players who insist on not using them, but at least its a start. Maybe get younger players used to the practice of safe transport from the beginning.

Danz

[shartley]

Originally posted by Danz
Just an Idea.

I wonder if it could be made mandatory for a manufacturer to sell a marker with some sort of bag or case for transport. I realize that this wont stop players who insist on not using them, but at least its a start. Maybe get younger players used to the practice of safe transport from the beginning.

Danz
I would not support that.

You can buy a shotgun without a bag. A Compound Bow without a bag. ETC. It is not up to the Manufacturer to provide "transport" gear for their product.

[ogre55]

On the topic of manufacturers providing a bag or case with a marker, my feelings are mixed. Most people who legally purchase firearms know that they need to keep them out of plain sight when transporting them. However, while we know the markers are not toys, most parents who buy them for their teenaged kids do not, unless they play as well. Further, when buying a marker at a local sporting goods store, or discount chain (K/Walmart) the sales people have no clue either.

To illustrate. Paraphrasing a story told in another thread, an AOer was standing on line at the local discount store while the teenager behind the counter was helping a parent by a marker for their child. Neither the parent nor the salesperson were knowledgable and the salesperson was telling the parent that masks were not neccasary and not to worry about it. The AOer, to his credit, set the parent straight, and the parent, to their credit, brought both the gun and the mask, but while the AOer being there to explain to a new paintball player/purchaser what owning a marker entails is the exception, the stupid salesperson is the unfortunate rule.

In another, more disturbing, example, the recent film, Bowling for Comumbine had a sequence when Michael Moore, the filmaker, went into a K-Mart in Colorado to buy some bullets. Not paintballs, but real lead bullets. There was not one person behind the counter at this store that was over 18. That is just scary to me. These kids knew nothing. My favorite sequence had to be when, while trying to get the packages to the counter, one of the salespeople drops the package, sending ammunition rolling in all directions. If not for the seriousness of the situation I would liken the scene to a sequence from the Keystone Cops.

If stores selling paintball gear and firearms are irresponible in their firearms sales, how responsible can we expect them to be in their sales of paintball equipment.

So getting back to the point, while most adults that buy firearms should have enough common sense not to carry their guns out in the open, unless there is an open carry law in effect in the jurisdiction, that same level of resposibility cannot be expected of people buying markers.

While I would like to agree with Shartley (see I spelled it right :D), I cannot, knowing that most people simply do not understand that a marker, while not as lethal as a firearm, should be treated with the same respect.

Ogre

[Danz]

Hi.

Many markers come with barrel plugs. Many masks come with goggle bags. Markers coming with marker bags just seems to be a logical step for safety sake. I would gladly pay a few bucks extra for that.

Danz

[shartley]

Good response.

I however have to disagree.

Let me break it down section by section:


On the topic of manufacturers providing a bag or case with a marker, my feelings are mixed. Most people who legally purchase firearms know that they need to keep them out of plain sight when transporting them. However, while we know the markers are not toys, most parents who buy them for their teenaged kids do not, unless they play as well. Further, when buying a marker at a local sporting goods store, or discount chain (K/Walmart) the sales people have no clue either.

To illustrate. Paraphrasing a story told in another thread, an AOer was standing on line at the local discount store while the teenager behind the counter was helping a parent by a marker for their child. Neither the parent nor the salesperson were knowledgable and the salesperson was telling the parent that masks were not neccasary and not to worry about it. The AOer, to his credit, set the parent straight, and the parent, to their credit, brought both the gun and the mask, but while the AOer being there to explain to a new paintball player/purchaser what owning a marker entails is the exception, the stupid salesperson is the unfortunate rule.
Agreed… many salespeople are NOT knowledgeable and give faulty information and guidance. However, that is not the responsibility or even fault of the manufacturers. Under your basic reasoning, not only should the manufacturer provide a carrying case for their marker, but a mask as well.

This would also have to be transferred to any other product that could be dangerous. How about cars? We would then have to require car dealerships to provide car buyers with instructions on the safe operation of the car they want to purchase. Simply put the slope this all travels down is not justifiable.

The ignorance of a parent buying a marker for their child is no concern of the manufacturer (beyond reasonable measures... which I feel are already being made). And even more so when that marker is located right next to the SPORTING section in most stores. Add to that the fact that markers in WalMart are behind locked glass, and require that the purchaser be over the age of 18. What other “toy” has those requirements? Call me silly, but if the parent misses these key indicators (along with the packaging stating that paintball markers are not toys), they are retarded. And to me it makes little difference that the SPORTING section is located right next to the TOY section….. you have to be an idiot to miss that there is a difference.

The Industry itself can not be held responsible for everyone who SELLS the equipment. If anyone sees someone try to sell a marker to someone and say no mask is needed, I would not only set them strait on the spot, but immediately report it to their supervisor or the store owner.


In another, more disturbing, example, the recent film, Bowling for Comumbine had a sequence when Michael Moore, the filmaker, went into a K-Mart in Colorado to buy some bullets. Not paintballs, but real lead bullets. There was not one person behind the counter at this store that was over 18. That is just scary to me. These kids knew nothing. My favorite sequence had to be when, while trying to get the packages to the counter, one of the salespeople drops the package, sending ammunition rolling in all directions. If not for the seriousness of the situation I would liken the scene to a sequence from the Keystone Cops.
Again this issue is serious, but is not the responsibility of the manufacturer. It is purely a store issue.


If stores selling paintball gear and firearms are irresponible in their firearms sales, how responsible can we expect them to be in their sales of paintball equipment.
We can’t expect them to be any more responsible… but again…. That is not the responsibility of the manufacturers. There are already laws that cover this sort of thing, and we as consumers must make sure the laws are followed, and fools like these are not left selling ANYTHING.


So getting back to the point, while most adults that buy firearms should have enough common sense not to carry their guns out in the open, unless there is an open carry law in effect in the jurisdiction, that same level of resposibility cannot be expected of people buying markers.
And why not? It is the responsibility of the person buying the product to learn about its use, safe transport of that product, and most of the other things we now want to place directly into the lap of the manufacturer. This is silly in my opinion. Why not expect the SAME levels of personal responsibility for paintball equipment that we do for any other product out there. Heck, we do not require Black and Decker to provide a pair of goggles with each drill they sell, or saw, but you can bet that the ER sees more visitors from eye injuries because of people not wearing any. ;)

While I would like to agree with Shartley (see I spelled it right :D), I cannot, knowing that most people simply do not understand that a marker, while not as lethal as a firearm, should be treated with the same respect.
THANKS!!! :D:D

But, I will point back up to my previously stated opinions. ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by Danz
Hi.

Many markers come with barrel plugs. Many masks come with goggle bags. Markers coming with marker bags just seems to be a logical step for safety sake. I would gladly pay a few bucks extra for that.

Danz
I wouldn't. Simply because I have 3 markers, 3 sets of goggles, 3 air systems, etc.

Most of the people I know want to keep their equipment together in one place and not in separate bags and containers. And how will the manufacturer know what air source you will be using, or size? Heck, some use drops, some don't, big tanks, small tanks, different hoppers, etc.

You expect the manufacturer to plan for all of this? I know I don't.

And again, I would not pay for it. Not now, not ever. I don't want to pay for something I will not ever use..... because some idiot lacks common sense. If it is truly a "safety" item, sure.... but a bag is NOT.

[ogre55]

Agreed… many salespeople are NOT knowledgeable and give faulty information and guidance. However, that is not the responsibility or even fault of the manufacturers.



No it is the fault of the retailers. However, we must take into special consideration the nature of the products we are dealing with. Not only are markers not toys, but most of the opponents of our sport would have everyone believe that markers should be put in the same class as firearms.

That being the case, firearms manufacturers, not the retailers, or the consumers, have been sued in various jurisdictions by victims of crimes purpetrated with the firearms made by those manufacturers. I know of ongoing litigation both in Florida and in California.

And to add insult to injury, and fuel to the fire that is this thread, the New York City Counsel (the same bunch of geniuses who created the laws that have made my life that much more difficult) have introduced legislation to create a new cause of action which would allow such litigation in New York.

This litigation against firearms manufacturers is based on the idea that they manufactured products that were "prefered" by criminals for one reason or another. That somehow the manufacturer knew that because of the design sales would be brisk because criminals would buy the marker.

Using a bit of logical progression, I can see how a lawyer could argue that a marker was used because some design feature made it desirable to the person commiting the offense. If a judge decides to allow this extention of the firearm cause of action, the best defense a manufacturer will have is that they made their markers to be as safe as possible.




Under your basic reasoning, not only should the manufacturer provide a carrying case for their marker, but a mask as well.

This would also have to be transferred to any other product that could be dangerous. How about cars? We would then have to require car dealerships to provide car buyers with instructions on the safe operation of the car they want to purchase.



When was the last time a new car was produced without a seatbelt? Manufacturers have step by step instructions on how to operate seatbelts in the manuals for the cars.




The ignorance of a parent buying a marker for their child is no concern of the manufacturer (beyond reasonable measures... which I feel are already being made).



Considering the litigious nature of our society and the deep pockets of many paintball manufactures, this should be a major concern.




And even more so when that marker is located right next to the SPORTING section in most stores. Add to that the fact that markers in WalMart are behind locked glass, and require that the purchaser be over the age of 18. What other “toy” has those requirements? Call me silly, but if the parent misses these key indicators (along with the packaging stating that paintball markers are not toys), they are retarded.

And to me it makes little difference that the SPORTING section is located right next to the TOY section….. you have to be an idiot to miss that there is a difference.



Maybe I am just a cynic, but it seems to me that a good amount of the population of this world are "retarded". As a case in point, I point to the genius who posted in a thread about outlaw painbtball, that when confronted with the police, people playing outlaw 'ball should run from the cops.

And it is usually these very retards (I really do like your use of the word) that sue.




The Industry itself can not be held responsible for everyone who SELLS the equipment. If anyone sees someone try to sell a marker to someone and say no mask is needed, I would not only set them strait on the spot, but immediately report it to their supervisor or the store owner.



Again you are assuming that the supervisor or store owner knows better, or even cares. I am sure that they will make nice to you when you report the incident, however, when they confront the employee, the conversation will probably entail a very simple question..."Did you make the sale?"




And why not? It is the responsibility of the person buying the product to learn about its use, safe transport of that product, and most of the other things we now want to place directly into the lap of the manufacturer. This is silly in my opinion. Why not expect the SAME levels of personal responsibility for paintball equipment that we do for any other product out there.



In a perfect world you would be right, but we do not live in a perfect world. We live in a society where lifetime smokers sue cigarrete companies after they get cancer because they allege that they did not know smoking was bad for them. Personal responsibilty has gone the way of the dodo in this country.

On a personal note, this is why I REFUSE to prectice personal injury law. I still beleive in personal responsibility.

Ogre

<Edited to change "same" to "sale">

[Danz]

Preach on Brother!

You rock. Anytime – Anywhere!

Danz:cool:

[Trunnion]

just a side note on a comment made by shartley, while you do have be 18 to purchase the paintball guns at walmart, my local walmart has the markers on a shelf directly at eye level out in the open. next to the markers are the pellet guns, in a locked case. also, i believe any responsible parent buying a paintball gun for their child would read the instructions first, which normally include a warning that the marker should ONLY be used when players are wearing certified eye and face protection. of course, this is what a RESPONSIBLE adult would do. there are many out there who don't fall into that category. as for the store clerk, he should be smacked around a bit for placing that child's well being in danger.

[shartley]

Ogre.. good post, but a bit off base on several issues. (understatement)

Apples and Oranges my friend. You are using oranges to try to explain how to make apple pie. It only works if people forget that they have little in common aside from being fruits. Same with most of your arguments.

Preach on? Yeah… it did sound like preaching. The problem with most preaching is that as long as you get caught up in the rhetoric and “feeling” you are fine…. But if you LISTEN to what is being said, far too often it has so many holes in it that you could drive a mac truck though it. LOL And this is the case with your latest post.

Seat belts? You mean Federally mandated safety devices that are required to be in all cars? But that depending on what state you live in, and your age, you can choose to use or not? ;) And the instructions are in the manual? You mean the same way instructions are provided with paintball markers already? ;)

You have to come stronger than that. :D

Trunnion – Very true! But so are cigarettes and alcohol. ;) But what happens when you go to purchase these? ;) Enough said.

(Got to eat, so I had to keep it short.)

[ogre55]

Apples and Oranges my friend. You are using oranges to try to explain how to make apple pie. It only works if people forget that they have little in common aside from being fruits. Same with most of your arguments.



How so? By comparing markers to firearms? In many people's minds there is little to no difference. Or by using the car analogy? Actually I just used your example and expanded on it. Fact is that a car is probably the most dangerous single instrumentanity that most people can or will use. One can, potentially cause as much damage with a car, than one could with a firearm. But they are not nearly as heavily regulated.

Please be specific. Don't just wax poetic about "apples and oranges" and then leave it at that.




Preach on? Yeah? it did sound like preaching. The problem with most preaching is that as long as you get caught up in the rhetoric and ?feeling? you are fine?.



Maybe I am preaching a bit, but that is because this can, potentially, effect me personally. You live in New Hampshire? It's a fairly Republican/Conservative state? Not very urban? Correct me if I'm wrong. Are firearms common in your neck of the woods? Do people care if you own paintball markers?

If I recall, you have access to enough private land to have made your own field. Correct? That's admirable and in fact I am a bit jealous.

I live in Brooklyn and work in Manhatten. There is very little in the way land to play paintball on locally. We have one organized paintball feild in the entire city. Land is too expensive for anyone to own enough of it privately to actually build a field for themselves and their friends. To play, you either have to leave the city or play outlaw.

Further, the city does not approve of the activity. Owners of paintball specialty stores in the city (all one of them in a city of 12 million people) are constantly harrassed by the police and local politicians. The one store owner in the city was actually raided some years ago by the cops and had to fight like hell to have his merchandise returned after the DA had to confess that there was no law on the books regulating paintball markers. (Actually the DA was wrong, but I'll post more on that later when I do some more research.)

So if I am preaching, that is because I feel pretty adamant about the topic. But if you had to deal with what I do, just for some clean harmless fun, brother, you would be preaching too.

As you can see our expereinces are fairly different, even though you are only 2 states away.




But if you LISTEN to what is being said, far too often it has so many holes in it that you could drive a mac truck though it. LOL And this is the case with your latest post.



I am still waiting to be shown the error of my ways here. :D




Seat belts? You mean Federally mandated safety devices that are required to be in all cars? But that depending on what state you live in, and your age, you can choose to use or not? ;)



Yes those same ones. Those are the minimum safety standards prescribed by law. But do you think that having those in cars prevents people from suing car companies when they think they can? And how do you think car companies defend against such suits? (the ones they don't settle anyway) They try to prove that the car was safe as manufactured by showing that the safety features in the car are above and beyond what the feds precribe and it was the plaintiff's fault.

This is my point. While it may not be the manufacturers legal obliation to have more than the minimum saftey devices in their products, doing so may alleviate possible legal headaches in the long run.

So getting back to the original reason for this exchange, selling cases and/or masks may not be such a bad idea, as Danz originally said.

Ogre

P.S.: It's amazing how these things can get out of hand isn't it? :D

[speedyejl]

This is a bit off topic, but considering there are alot of people in the New York metro area on this thread. Where do you guys play, I like Advantadge at Coram, and HV in Bay Shore.

[ogre55]

Maybe we should move this one to a separate thread. I'm going to open one up, to keep things organized on this one.

I know this is a moderator move, but it's good to police ourselves.

Ogre

[speedyejl]

Smart Move, ok post where ya play there
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=505054#post505054

[shartley]

Yes, much of this conversation was taken to PM.... and thanks. Good move!

A couple points I think I should make publicly however, are as follows:

I will use Motorcycles as an example since it involves a similar equipment/helmet situation as marker/goggles.

When you purchase a Motorcycle in a State that REQUIRES the use of a Helmet while operating that motorcycle, the manufacturer is not required to provide a helmet with the sale of their motorcycle. It is expected that the operator of that equipment/vehicle know and follow the appropriate laws.

It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure their product is "safe" at the point of sale. What the person does with it AFTER that point is directly the responsibility of the new owner. IE. if they ride without a helmet and get injured where the use of a helmet could have prevented the injury, the Manufacturer would NOT be found at fault.

Same with Paintball Markers.

Now, the second point I need to make is that by requiring the manufacturers to provide goggles with each marker is missing a very important thing. What if you already own a marker and want another one? You will then be required to purchase another set of goggles when you already OWN a pair. Now what about those folks that own 5 or more markers? Will they be required to own the same number of goggles? ;)

On that same note... who is to decide what goggles get sold with what marker?

As I am sure most can see.... this would just be silly.

[Rooster]

"It seems we have more in common that I first realized. Its always good to hear from an “Old School Player”. I appreciate your frankness but, I’m not sure I understand your point about “who is playing the game”. Please explain. My Rec-ball team consists of one graphic designer, one lawyer, one engineer, two architects, one retired army officer and a prep chief."

Obviously there are some good teams out there, guys who would never cheat, never yell at a ref, and never do anything to be considered reproachable. I'd like to consider my team one of those. However, the poison starts at the top. This world cup business just proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt (Avalance should never play a proffesional game again, and the cheater and the captain should be gone for good). There is rampant cheating, the people who play professionally are portrayed as horrible sports, and basically guys who are way to old act like kids doing just that on a regular basis. And those who arn't, are in the game to make a profit from the stuff they sell on the side. Now I'm all about making money doing what you love, but it needs to be paintball first, gear second. Tony Stewart doesn't try to sell a car or stuff from Home Depot right before a race (bad example, another guy who acts like a kid). Sponsorship is tied far too closely with the teams, to the point thats the guys paying for the sponsorship are on the team. So these player/owners are now way too invested in doing well for the sake of money and it shows. Until the honorable players in the game root out the cheaters, the bad eggs, and the people who are only in it to make a buck, paintball will remain a game.

[Dern]

In my opinion I think that it is not what a paintball marker looks like really hurts paintball much. What hurts paintball is the ways people use their paintball guns. For instance, just yesterday on Halloween, all over my school (lots of paintball players) I hear "Yeah, I'm going to sit in the bushes and shoot little kids with my marker." Of course they are the same people who totally object to the ban of paintball markers; i am against it mostly too. But many paintball players are too immature to handle the responsibility of a paintball gun. Shooting your neighor's annoying dog or their window DOES NOT HELP THE SPORTS REPUTATION AT ALL. It pains me to hear of people doing things like that because I don't want paintball banned anywhere.

[Dern]

What really tics me off is how many people are concerned about the safety of paintball and how it is "such a bad sport," yet they don't hesitate to think of how often they do things in unsafe ways. Take for instance one of the leading causes of deaths in our country: Drunk Driving. Every 30 minutes someone dies from drunk driving and every 3/5 people (average) drive under influence regularly. That is way more dangerous than paintball has ever been. But people do not see this- it is instinctual that we only think of how other people affect US not how WE affect other people. Same goes for smoking. And lighting illegal fireworks. And driving too fast on roads.

Paintball is just a new thing and every small incident that happens related to it is going to show up massively in the media and hurt the sport. If people stop doing stupid thigns with their markers and show some respect for their neighboors perhaps paintball will earn a better reputation.

[raehl]

Originally posted by Rooster
"It seems we have more in common that I first realized. Its always good to hear from an “Old School Player”. I appreciate your frankness but, I’m not sure I understand your point about “who is playing the game”. Please explain. My Rec-ball team consists of one graphic designer, one lawyer, one engineer, two architects, one retired army officer and a prep chief."

Obviously there are some good teams out there, guys who would never cheat, never yell at a ref, and never do anything to be considered reproachable. I'd like to consider my team one of those. However, the poison starts at the top. This world cup business just proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt (Avalance should never play a proffesional game again, and the cheater and the captain should be gone for good). There is rampant cheating, the people who play professionally are portrayed as horrible sports, and basically guys who are way to old act like kids doing just that on a regular basis. And those who arn't, are in the game to make a profit from the stuff they sell on the side. Now I'm all about making money doing what you love, but it needs to be paintball first, gear second. Tony Stewart doesn't try to sell a car or stuff from Home Depot right before a race (bad example, another guy who acts like a kid). Sponsorship is tied far too closely with the teams, to the point thats the guys paying for the sponsorship are on the team. So these player/owners are now way too invested in doing well for the sake of money and it shows. Until the honorable players in the game root out the cheaters, the bad eggs, and the people who are only in it to make a buck, paintball will remain a game.

[cough]collegepaintball[coughcough]

;)

- Chris

[Brian68mag]

First i will make clear i live in a smaller, more "old school" town.
In my town durung hunting season you will see people walking down the street with REAL rifles on there back, noone looks twice. Everyone owns a large arsenal around here of real firearms and almost all adults will have a gun in their car or a concelled one with a license. One of my freinds parents own a staggering 280 firearms including sks's, ak-47's and ar-15's. I have regularly gone downtown, to the shop with my gun in a bag, or out in plain view, people dont look, or care.
In my city its legal to carry around a firearm, anywhere. If im walking people will ask about it, most people just say, thats cool, or does it hurt? Also we never have shootings here, people respect each other. Also i think people know that if they try to shoot someone everyone in the area is going to have a gun aimed on them. I want to know how a person can convince people paintball is dangerous by claiming "this gun looks real" or " what would happen if someone carried this into the subway". Prehaps it is just where i am from and how i was raised, but im confused, i really am. We are taught how to use firearms, in a responsible manner. I know how to shoot and clean every gun in my house. We think the world is a safer place when everyone is a responsible gun owner. Take 9/11 for example. If everyone on the planes had a gun would the terrorists been able to do anything? no, they would have got dropped in seconds. Why in New York are people worried about guns so much? Are there that many disrespectful *******s shooting people? What has our country come to if they are banning non-lethal firearms. I understood automatics being banned, but this is rediculous.
I hope some of you understand my point of view, im sure some will think we are crazy.

[raehl]

Your town doesn't have any democrats. ;)

- Chris

[shartley]

Doesn't anyone even look on the FIRST page of posts before posting things? Come on folks.

[raehl]

Online petitions are worth the paper they're printed on.


- Chris

[shartley]

Originally posted by raehl
Online petitions are worth the paper they're printed on.


- Chris
Don't you mean they are NOT worth? ;)

And I still find it funny that some folks think otherwise.

[raehl]

Because they're not printed on paper, thus being worth the paper they're printed on means they're worth nothing. ;)

And it's a pat-yourself-on-the-back feel good excercise. People like to feel like they're contributing, even if they're really not.


- Chris

[shartley]

LOL Well, it IS printed in the end if used to show anything. ;) I don't think they would take a computer into a meeting to discuss this. :D

But feel good... yup. And I actually strongly encourage it. Look what happened with quite a few of the letters sent to the Michigan "ban". ;)

First rule.. do no harm. ;)

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by Vendetta


Where do you play in Brooklyn ilegally? Is there a game in Greenwood Cemetary i'm missing:D

Gerritsen Beach! I have been playing in the Beach since I was 12!

~Fred

[ogre55]

What ever happened to the Michigan ban? What were they trying to ban? Was it upheld?

I find it interesting that Michigan tried to impose restrictions on paintball, when, to the best of my knowledge, they still have "open carry" laws on the books.

Ogre

[MagDog68]

The only thing you all forget with your Motorcycle/Firearm/Automobile analogies is that all those pieces of equipment require a test which determines your knowledge and ability to operate the equipment safely.

~Fred

PS You know I am just busting balls now, right? :D

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by shartley

Don't you mean they are NOT worth? ;)

And I still find it funny that some folks think otherwise.

I think he was trying to be ironic with the use of "online" and "paper," but once he threw the word "printed" it ruined everything.

~Fred

[ogre55]

Considering how much of this discussion revolved around lawsuits and personal responsibiity, I would like to introduce you to the Stella Awards.

I cannot vouch for the veracity of these cases, as I received these in an e-mail. However, if even 50% of these are true, can you imagine what sorts of lawsuits manufacturers of paintball markers could face?

The mind staggers (at the sheer stupidity of it all)

--------------------------

The "Stella" awards rank up there with the Darwin Awards. In 1994, a New Mexico jury awarded $2.9 million US in damages to 81-year-old Stella Liebeck who suffered third-degree burns to her legs, groin and buttocks after spilling a cup of McDonald's coffee on herself.

This case inspired an annual award - The "Stella" Award - for the most frivolous lawsuits in the US. The ones listed below are clear candidates.

1. January 2000: Kathleen Robertson of Austin Texas was awarded $780,000 by a jury of her peers after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was running inside a furniture store. The owners of the store were understandably surprised at the verdict, considering the misbehaving little bastard was Ms. Robertson's son.

2. June 1998: A 19 year old Carl Truman of Los Angeles won $74,000 and medical expenses when his neighbor ran over his hand with a Honda Accord. Mr. Truman apparently didn't notice there was someone at the wheel of the car, when he was trying to steal his neighbor's hubcaps.

3. October 1998: A Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania was leaving a house he had just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn't re enter the house, because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation. Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's insurance, claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed to the tune of half a million dollars.

4. October 1999: Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas was awarded $14,500 and medical expenses, after being bitten on the buttocks by his next door neighbor's beagle. The beagle was on a chain in it's owner's fenced-in yard. The award was less than sought, because the jury felt the dog might have been just a little provoked at the time by Mr. Williams, who was shooting it repeatedly with a pellet gun.

5. May 2000: A Philadelphia restaurant was ordered to pay Amber Carson of Lancaster, Pennsylvania $113,500 after she slipped on a soft drink and broke her coccyx. The beverage was on the floor because Ms. Carson threw it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier, during an argument.

6. December 1997: Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware successfully sued the owner of a night club in a neighboring city, when she fell from the bathroom window, to the floor, and knocked out her two front teeth. This occurred while Ms. Walton was trying to sneak through the window in the ladies room to avoid paying the $3.50 cover charge. She was awarded $12,000 and dental expenses.

And the winner is:

Mr. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma City. In November 2000 Mr. Grazinski purchased a brand new 32 foot Winnebago motor home. On his first trip home, having joined the freeway, he set the cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the drivers seat to go into the back and make himself a cup of coffee. Not surprisingly, the Winnie left the freeway, crashed and overturned. Mr. Grazinski sued Winnebago for not advising him in the handbook that he couldn't actually do this. He was awarded $1,750,000 plus a new Winnie! (Winnebago actually changed their handbooks on the back of this court case, just in case there are any other complete morons buying their vehicles.)

[ogre55]

Originally posted by MagDog68
The only thing you all forget with your Motorcycle/Firearm/Automobile analogies is that all those pieces of equipment require a test which determines your knowledge and ability to operate the equipment safely.

~Fred

PS You know I am just busting balls now, right? :D

Maddog: Don't make Shartley and myself whip out the debate we have been having on PM and post it. Tom Clancy has written shorter novels. ;)

Ogre

[MagDog68]

The Stellas are pure fiction:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/onlyinamerica.htm

~Fred

[ogre55]

After doing some legal research, I have dug up some interesting facts regarding paintball in NYC. All NYC paintballers should check this out.

Frankly, I should have done this a while ago. I have told myself at least half a dozen times, in the last half a dozen years, that I should really do some hard nosed research into the legal status of paintball in NYC. This incident at the Sports Authority has spurred me on. I think many people will be surprised by the results.

First, a couple of disclaimers. I am a legal professional, living and working in NYC. I do not practice penal/criminal law, nor do I practice municipal law, however, I know how to do research. The cases and statutes that I paraphrase were gleaned after about four hours of research. They were researched through Westlaw. If anyone wants the entire text of the statutes that I paraphrase here, just PM me and I will send them, along with legal citations.

This will be long, and somewhat involved. Consider yourself warned. ;)

First the New York City ordinance. Under the NYC Administrative Code 1-131. “Toy guns” and “air pistols and air rifles” are treated separately. Toy guns must be in bright colors. They must have bright orange on the tip of the barrel (like airsoft guns), and they must have their barrels PLUGGED. I am not talking about barrels plugs or barrel condoms here, but permanently plugged. The penalty for violation of this provision is $1000 or up to 1 year of incarceration. This is the provision that the Ms. Dykstra seemed to be invoking when she raided Sports Authority. Fortunately for all of us, she was WRONG.

“Air pistols and air rifles” is the category that our markers fall into under Administrative Code 1-131. “Any instrument in which the propelling force is spring or air” is classified as such. Possession or sale of such devices is legal as long as the person has obtained a license for such from the NYC police commissioner. A license costs $10. Also use of such devices is legal as long as it is at a range or in connection with an amusement licensed by the Dept. of Consumer Affairs or at a licensed pistol or rifle range.

Now we go to the NY state law. Again, paintball guns are never specifically mentioned so markers fall into “air-gun, spring-gun or other instrument or weapon in which the propelling force is a spring or air”.

Under Penal Law 265.05 possession is illegal to anyone under 16, unless, under Penal Law 265.20, “by a person under sixteen years of age but not under twelve, under the immediate supervision, guidance and instruction of (a) a duly commissioned officer of the United States army, navy, marine corps or coast guard, or of the national guard of the state of New York; or (b) a duly qualified adult citizen of the United States who has been granted a certificate as an instructor in small arms practice issued by the United States army, navy or marine corps, or by the adjutant general of this state, or by the national rifle association of America, a not-for-profit corporation duly organized under the laws of this state; or (c) a parent, guardian, or a person over the age of eighteen designated in writing by such parent or guardian who shall have a certificate of qualification in responsible hunting, including safety, ethics, and landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or honored by the department of environmental conservation.

Paintball markers may also fall into Penal Law Section 265.01, which is criminal possession in the 4th Degree, if they are classified as “imitation pistols or other dangerous or deadly instruments or weapons with intent to use the same unlawfully against another”. Here we get into a bit of a legal quandary.

Are paintball markers imitation pistols? I would argue no because in the same section of the penal law (265) they are in the category of “air-gun, spring-gun or other instrument or weapon in which the propelling force is a spring or air”. Is playing a friendly game of speedball intent to use the same unlawfully against another? I again say no, because all the participants give their consent, in the same way that people playing full contact football, or who enter a boxing ring, consent to commit acts against one another, which under other circumstances would be felonies.
So what do we learn from all this? As for owning a marker? Get a license. In my years of play in and around NYC, I have never known anyone who has had a license. I plan to acquire one, just to see how hard it is. If the NYPD, who issue the license, give me the run around, fortunately for me, I know the procedures involved in forcing the City to at least let me try and obtain a license.
I told you it would be long. I’m bushed. I’m going to bed.
Ogre

[ogre55]

Originally posted by MagDog68
The Stellas are pure fiction:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/onlyinamerica.htm

~Fred

Ce la vie. Leave it to the internet to take a perfectly good example and turn it into hogwash. As I said, when I originally posted, I was not vouching for the veracity of the post.

Thanks Maddog for clearing it up.

Ogre

[raehl]

Not quite. Actually, motorcycles and autos only require that the user takes a test in order to *USE* the device in question. Anyone can buy/own a motorcycle or auto without any license at all.

Firearms you can buy in many states with a driver's license to show age and identity and no additional documentation.

- Chris

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by raehl
Not quite. Actually, motorcycles and autos only require that the user takes a test in order to *USE* the device in question. Anyone can buy/own a motorcycle or auto without any license at all.

Firearms you can buy in many states with a driver's license to show age and identity and no additional documentation.

- Chris

And as I said in my post "to operate the equipment." No for nothing, a motorcycle is somewhat boring if you can't use it.

And Ogre - I told you I just wanted to but your balls :D

~Fred