Letters To and From PMI regarding the "Evil" line of Products

[Fred]

Hey all, I send a formal letter of complaint to PMI, to several of their email addresses actually, which can all be found here: http://www.pmipaintball.com/contact.htm

I did not expect a response, but actually got not one, but two so far. I have not written a third time as of yet, but I feel it necessary to do so.

Here they are, in order of being sent and recieved.
Enjoy!

--------------------------------------------------------
To whom is may concern,

I am a paintball player, who has been using PMI paint
almost exclusively for the past three years due to its
proven track record of performing well in a myriad of
conditions in my paintball markers.

I also have used PMI products in the past, much to my
satisfaction.

However, I cannot express in words the level of disgust I
feel towards your "Evil" line of products. These products
promote everything that is bad in our little world of
paintball. T-shirts that promote cheating, unsportsmanlike
conduct, and disrespect for the officiators and the rules
they uphold are absolutely unacceptable. The
evil-paintball.com website is a disgrace to PMI. The
descriptions of items include encouragement of
fistfighting, and wiping paint breaks, as well as lying to
the referees. Is this what PMI has become?

Paintball is seen by many of the general public as a bad
thing, a war game played by crazy people. Speedball and
tournament play was one way that players tried in order to
remove the stigma of "militia training in the woods." The
addition of bright colored clothing, gear, etc, also
promoted this. Your new line of Evil products sets back
the public image of paintball a decade or more, as a game of
uncivilized, ignorant folk who take pleasure in shooting
each other.

Paintball is supposed to be about fun. Cheating takes away
the fun. Breaking the rules takes away the fun.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is not something that players in
other sports are rewarded for, and it is in fact a major
penalty in all other major sports, Paintball should follow
suite.

I would like to urge PMI to reconsider what it is doing
with this line of products. Will it sell? Probably. Will
it have a positive effect on the sport? Definitely not.

I for one, am saddened that a company that I once
considered to be one of the most respectable has stooped
so low. I am boycotting this "Evil" product line, and am
encouraging all of my fellow paintball players to do the
same. I hope the rest of PMI's products will not follow
this style of advertising, but I am sure there are several
other paint manufacturers that would be more than willing
to accept my money for their products as well.

Sincerely,
Fred Klein
Plymouth, MI

-------------------------------------------------------

Dear Fred:

Thank you for your e-mail and thank you for your support
over your playing career.

PMI is the exclusive distributor of all evil products.

Evil is a new line which is very much on the leading edge
of paintball technology. Because of this a more aggressive "tongue in cheek" advertising program was developed by the manufacture of these products to promote them.

The overall response to Evil has been great. Evil
acknowledge some of the problems our professional tournaments portray it does not endorse them! Evil is dedicated to the growth of our sport through the
application of improved technology. I am sorry to hear you
will not be taking advantage of many of the patent pending items the Evil line will offer.

Thanks again for your input.

Mike

-------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your response Mr. Lukas, I honestly did not
expect one.

I would like to follow up a little bit.

Evil may well be the cutting edge. If it is indeed so, let
the products speak for themselves and prove their prowess
without the immature slang.

I find it hard to believe that your marketing people are
not endorsing unsportsmanlike conduct by including a
squeegee your gloves. Ski and snowboarding gloves have
squeegees to clean snow off of goggles, since a rag is hard
to keep track of while traveling at 45mph down a steep
slope, paintball gloves with such a feature do one thing:
Allow for the possibility of covert cheating.

If Evil is truely attempting to promote the sport, why
isn't it called GOOD? A positive marketing plan could
promote the technology you have developed, and it would
inspire a better attitude among players, as opposed to the
negative that seems to be permeating this product line.

Sincerely,
Fred Klein

----------------------------------------------------------

Fred:

The squeegee on the glove is a joke does not exist. That was a comment by a member of the media over far to many beers one night at World Cup.

With no disrespect intended I think we need to concentrate our efforts on discouraging professional players from conducting sniper activity from the woods rather than condemning a product line which has the attitude
"we have to be able to laugh at ourselves first in order to
advance the sport". Evil is tongue in cheek always will be. Sorry we can't see common ground here but that is the nature of life sometimes.

Your comments will be noted and brought up at the next product review meeting.

Beat wishes.

Mike

=====================================

Furthur letters can be sent to MLukas@pminetwork.com

I would like to encourage all of my fellow AO members to write him and let him know just what you think.

Thanks for reading all this,

---Fred

[Kevmaster]

i too am surprized at the response. i think it has a lot to do with your character and the way you wrote the email, it wasnt a flame, yet a concern. i plan to write an email to them as soon as i have time...

[Webmaster]

Hmm - someone needs to get out more. I saw a dye or a JT with a thing that looked like it would squeegee on the palm part of the thumb. I mean - why else would that part be there...

I agree with you that thier new shirt line is over the top. Encouraging unsportsmanlike behavior is low. You dont see any football shirts prompting players to "yank on a face mask". While that would be edgy and tounge in cheek - doing so is unsportsmanlike (and penalized as so).

[Fred]

Oh, I forgot to put the website from which some of the stuff I talked about came from, its the product descriptions on the evil-paintball.com site, they are really over the top.

www.evil-paintball.com

I was not aware that any other companies made gloves with squeegees, only paint absorbing fabric... since I don't wear paintball gloves much, i don't notice stuff like that...

---Fred

[theraidenproject]

I have no idea what this thing does but i am sure it cant hurt your shoebox sized gun. plus it has an adjustment screw on the front and those are always good.
(-our webmaster is crazy... this thing actually replaces the fill poppet AND firing rod. The adjusment screw is used to control how fast the air chamber refills, it's called dynamic regulation if you want to know. Should get an extra pod off with correct tuning. Bottomline, its dope, for the four guys who still use the 'shoebox'.)

Nothing says "buy from us" like insulting a customer's gun.

[Meph]

What do I think?

I think they're poking fun of tournament players! They aren't promoting cheating, they are joking around about it. It's pretty obvious to me that this is how it sounds. A lot of companies and magazines are now doing these sarcastic quips.

I don't think that this is the problem. The bigger problem that you should rather focus on is what people actually do that make companies like PMI actually have the ability to poke fun at them like this. If tournaments weren't so full of an overabundance of cheating and unsportsmanlike conduct, they wouldn't have made those marketing gimmicks in the first place!

[agdemagman69]

Evil does make great paint....

I think you took this seriously

Their making new products which will HELP the sport advance...

there just having a little fun

[agdemagman69]

upon further inspection of the site I found this:
http://www.evil-paintball.com/shockerupgrades.htm
LOL

[Fred]

Evil doesn't make great paint, RP Scherer makes great paint and puts little E's on them... the evil paint has been around for a while.

[Spaceman613]

Well, I dont really have any problems other than the shirts. I still would have liked them to read

"Cheaters live longer" on back "because they are suspended"

"Refs suck" on back "they caught me wiping"

"Overshooting is not a crime" on back "but it is punishable"

now THEN they would be tongue in cheek...

I can see some of the humor, maybe its just my mental instabilities, but the shirts are just pretty lame.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Well..I took a look around their website...did they make me laugh with their comments? yeah..they did..i have to admit it...but not in a good way...in a dirty standup comic who can't tell a joke without swearing type of way...It's funny...do i think it's appropriate? no..not at all...

[BourneKiller]

I like how the PMI guy didn't really address the bad stuff directly. He just said "well I'm sorry you're not going to buy from us" and "we have to be tongue-in-cheek"

he didn't say anything about the crap they're promoting, he just more put it on YOU that you were stupid for even thinking about not getting Evil stuff...

[Creative Mayhem]

Is their product line funny and amuzing? Sure it is. Would I buy or condone the purchase of their products by paintballers? Heck NO. Their attitude my be "tongue in cheek", but some players believe the marketing hype and think "it is written, so it shall be done." I will not buy these products but others will. That's the marketing business, there's nothing you can do, but wait for it to subside. My .02 cents

CM

[blnk162]

What is with you little girls? Evil makes more stuff than you can imagine, and has publicly launched themselves as a company and you guys whine about their t-shirts?

Its not like the t-shirts say shoot pedestrians or things that would really hinder the growth of paintball to a more public view

I dont see any body complaining about the t-shirt that has a person gogged with white paint saying "Now you know how your girl feels"....That has obvious sexual referances which would get the goverment and the church and everyone mad at you...


....jeeze quit being little girls, sack up, find some humor in something for once, and dont get your panties in a bunch...

flame all you want but I feel as though you are all too sensitive.

[Jonneh]

Originally posted by blnk162
What is with you little girls? Evil makes more stuff than you can imagine, and has publicly launched themselves as a company and you guys whine about their t-shirts?

Blah Blah Blah

flame all you want but I feel as though you are all too sensitive.
I was thinking the exact same thing reading through this thread.

[Pand0ra]

Hehehe I like their style. Here's a part of the description of their new barrel:

"It also comes standard with a sweet *** black to clear fade, further propelling you to be ulra hip. This barrel also is the most accurate barrel ever and shoots farther as well. Basically it defies all laws of physics."

It's obvious what they say must be taken at the second degree, not exactly as it comes.

But I agree the Tshirts are not the best idea they had so far.

@++

[shartley]

Insulting folks and calling them names for not liking something and stating it is petty and childish. And no, I am not insulting back or name calling, only pointing out behavior.

Now I can say that I fully understand being edgy or tongue and cheek, but at some point you can’t fall back on that as an excuse for irresponsible marketing. And I would like to make a couple points on that matter. First of all let me quote:

Originally posted by Webmaster
I agree with you that thier new shirt line is over the top. Encouraging unsportsmanlike behavior is low. You dont see any football shirts prompting players to "yank on a face mask". While that would be edgy and tounge in cheek - doing so is unsportsmanlike (and penalized as so).
This is VERY true. Even if in the locker rooms, or while drinking, the players or those associated with the game wanted to have a laugh, they would never think of putting out a Starter jacket with “Be Great, Hit Late”, or “yank on a face mask”, or any of the other things that are illegal to do while playing the sport. But Paintball is different, isn’t it? So much for trying to bring the sport up to par with other organized sports.

And as for their response….. do they think paintball players are all idiots? I think they do. Let me show you why.

Dear Fred:

Thank you for your e-mail and thank you for your support
over your playing career.

PMI is the exclusive distributor of all evil products.

Evil is a new line which is very much on the leading edge
of paintball technology. Because of this a more aggressive "tongue in cheek" advertising program was developed by the manufacture of these products to promote them.

The overall response to Evil has been great. Evil
acknowledge some of the problems our professional tournaments portray it does not endorse them! Evil is dedicated to the growth of our sport through the
application of improved technology. I am sorry to hear you
will not be taking advantage of many of the patent pending items the Evil line will offer.

Thanks again for your input.

Mike
So… they don’t promote problems in the sport, or illegal or unsportsmanlike actions.. BUT they will use those actions to promote their products? Does anyone else see the paradox there? It would have been better if they just admitted they are using a marketing technique that seems to be making them money and leave it at that. Some of us don’t fall for that double talk.

It is like saying… “I don’t condone abortion; I just make tongue and cheek T-Shirts that do.” Or “I don’t condone racism, I just make tongue and cheek T-Shirts that do.” And the list goes on and on. If you profit from certain actions and go out of your way to capitalize on it, you DO condone it in a manner of speaking, period. Heck, even if you DON’T profit from it, but display it, it is condoning… example would be .. “I don’t condone killing police officers, I just blast Cop Killer whenever I drive my car down main street.”

And for those who think that things that are “funny” or inside jokes or terms are always fine to wear out in the public, you may want to rethink that. T-Shirts are walking billboards whether you like it or not. And what you ware will be seen by the general public, not just those who participate in our sport. Public perception can NOT be ignored. And this is also why the NHL Ball Cap that said “Sniper” on it was discontinued for sale in the wake of the recent events. Under the “inside” thinking seen by some, that Cap should have still been sold… after all, who cares that someone who does not know what “sniper” in hockey is, right? I disagree….. and so did they.

Also, “The overall response to Evil has been great.” Translated – “Our product is selling very well.” But if you put naked women on t-shirts they would sell very well also. I am sure we could all think of things we could put on T-Shirts and other products that would sell like hotcakes, but that would not be very appropriate. There is ALWAYS a portion of the population that will do things that are inappropriate, or buy things that are inappropriate, etc. That is a no brainer. But that does not mean taking advantage of this is correct, or the responsible thing to do.

I also find that those that are irresponsible, or do inappropriate things, will demand they be allowed to do so, or act like it is their right to do so, but seem to feel that those that think otherwise don’t have even the simple right to state they disagree. Stating disagreement of what you find unacceptable is somehow WORSE than doing the things that many find unacceptable now days… and that is truly sad. If you expect ME to show respect for your opinions, you had better not disrespect me for simply stating mine (and even in a respectful manner).

The industry and some folks in it, had better wake up…. And darn fast. WC brought up serious issues, and now Evil is adding to them. I will also state that Angel has not been a stellar force for respectability either INHO.

[luke]

It does look like they are attempting to represent their products with a sense of humor. Although their tee shirts were a little over the top, I wasn't really offended by them.

Here's a quote from their site I thought was humorous:

"The respirator cleans up the front end of your impulse. To make it Vroom Vroom looking like a Ferrari. Lets face it looks are all that ever matter."

[luke]

Here is one more I like:

"This will make you a better player. This is hands down the coolest barrel out there." :D

[Shirow]

Our webmaster is whack, but some of his comments were so funny we had to keep them. We should tell you that our webmaster happens to be a pro player on a very successfull pro team we cannot mention due to contracts (???????). We sent him the products and told him to make a site, and this is what happened, note, never pay a webmaster in beer, this is what you get. So don't be up tight and enjoy... And keep in mind, rule the world is not a slogan it is simply the destiny of our customers.

I bet it's Jeremy Salm.

[ogre55]

I am glad that, with a few exceptions, most people are at least put out, if not downright insulted and appalled, by the Evil T-Shirts. But I have yet to here anyone, other than Fred, state just what they plan to do about it.

Not buying the T-shirts is a start, but not much of one. For every one who does not buy one, there will be two little twerps that do.

Not buying any Evil brand products? That is a step in the right direction, as the company may then start to get the point.

If you really feel like PMI needs a kick in the teeth for this, as I do, I would say, don't buy ANY of their products, until they at least take the shirts of the market, if not appologise for their subsidiaries bad taste. I hate to do this, as IMO, the advantage line of paint is the best paint out there. Oh well.

No amount of letters will get a company to stop doing anything. While the decisions are made by the executives, the merit of those decisions is measured by the accountants. And when the accounts start telling the executives that they are not meeting a sales qouta because some wiseacre in marketing decided to get cute, well, the marketing guy gets canned (oh well) but the product get discontinued. In short, if you want to see these t-shirts gone, boycott PMI.

Oh and if you see some 'tard wearing one these things at your local field, express your displeasure, not with words, but from the business end of your 'Mag.

Peace out.

Ogre

[Fred]

Also, I should point out, that Evil is NOT its own company, it is just a product line direct from PMI.

I don't want to start a flame war, and I don't want to stop using PMI products, since i actually like them, as I stated in my letter to them.

If this "tounge in cheek" marketing strategy extends to other PMI products, or if PMI essentially becomes Evil, I will not hesistate to let my wallet to the talking even more.

Granted, I don't spend as much per year as half of you guys, but its still in the range of a thousand dollars per year, and on my personal income (Parents don't finance my paintball habit), and considering what I have to pay in college tuition every year, that is a HUGE portion of my spending money.

yes, I also agree that they think we're stupid, me in particular for actually writing them about it.

Shartley- well said!

I think in a further email I may direct him to this thread, and the others in various forums as to how players actually feel about the Evil line.

Keep your thoughts coming guys!

---Fred

[JEDI]

I'm not sure how to respond to all this. I guess I'm just less conservative, or offended less easily. Repost this thread when an actual problem arises directly related to Evil's marketing.(I don't think that will ever happen) Do you honestly believe the glove squeegie does nothing but promote wiping? I'm sorry, but thats bending reality for the sole purpose of supporting your arguement.

My JT gloves have one too, and I think its the greatest idea. There are several ways to get paint on your goggles other than a direct hit. (Its called spatter) Even if I do have a legit hit on my face, its nice to be able to neatly clear it off, as I stumble off the feild.

Sometimes I think we here at AGD sit back and preach, without holding ourselves to the same standard. I guess you saw nothing wrong with a topless chick advertising the warp feed (I don't). Or promoting our non-chopping gun with ads of "stick your finger/ TOUNGE in it." I saw a girl F up her finger pretty bad right in front of Tom at the World Cup. Sure she was somewhat dim-witted, but I've yet to see some one wearing a "bonus-ball" tee-shirt running around shooting up the place.

Let Evil run its course. If it has the potential to sell and do well, why cut that chance off? If it does begin to cause problems, (which I doubt)let the industry police itself. Lets not jump on every new Idea thats different. After all, isn't that what we AGD lovers are faced with everyday (mag haters)

Paintball IS different. It's NOT football. I love my community the way it is. Lets not creat trouble where there is none.

[Moats]

Why does it seem like you people go out and look for things to cry about all the time. "Holy cow guys that guy is shooting alone and he did not put his barrel plug in and goggles on when they squirrel ran by 500 furlongs down the road."

All i can say is DON'T BUY THE SHIRT!

If it makes you so upset that you can't go on whith your every day life then get some people and don't buy the shirt.

This was the same despute as when the badass goggles came out. Mothers lock you babies up beccause the word *** has be introduced into a sport where profanity can be heard ten fold from the deadbox.

This shirt doesn't bother me and it seems like you people who want to bring Evil to the Supreme Court need to chill a little bit. It's not the end of the world. The paintball police are not going to come shut down the sport because of it.

The sport requires "guns" to "shoot" people, yes i said guns not markers. Lock me up.

All i can say is don't buy it. If they offered to sponser my team i would wear it. Don't make a big deal about nothing. Their shirts will sell. Just wait. Maybe you won't buy one but they will not be hurt. All for Now incert flames below....

[shartley]

Originally posted by JEDI
Sometimes I think we here at AGD sit back and preach, without holding ourselves to the same standard. I guess you saw nothing wrong with a topless chick advertising the warp feed (I don't). Or promoting our non-chopping gun with ads of "stick your finger/ TOUNGE in it." I saw a girl F up her finger pretty bad right in front of Tom at the World Cup. Sure she was somewhat dim-witted, but I've yet to see some one wearing a "bonus-ball" tee-shirt running around shooting up the place.
Sorry, I think you are missing quite a lot on AO. Actually, MANY saw something wrong with the topless chick. There were in fact many threads about this. And again, those that did were attacked for their opinions. The opinions were not attacked, but the person stating them.

I personally NEVER sit back and preach and don’t hold myself to the same standards that I post about. And many others don’t either.

As for the other examples you give, I AGREE. But I will never NOT post about one problem because there are OTHERS. That kind of thinking is silly in my opinion, and causes nothing to be done. And without standing up now and again and stating that things are not acceptable, you will have everything and anything happening…. As is the case with paintball at the moment. It is high time folks DO stand up and state their opinions.


Let Evil run its course. If it has the potential to sell and do well, why cut that chance off? If it does begin to cause problems, (which I doubt)let the industry police itself. Lets not jump on every new Idea thats different. After all, isn't that what we AGD lovers are faced with everyday (mag haters)

Paintball IS different. It's NOT football. I love my community the way it is. Lets not creat trouble where there is none.
I disagree with this with all my being. It shows no foresight and gross lack of reality. If people think there is not “trouble” already, that is half the problem IMHO. Some of us would like to see this sport become more than it is. I agree that those who don’t should not be deprived of aspects that they enjoy, but NOT at the expense of the others.

There is a huge difference between someone bashing another marker because they don’t like it, and those who feel that the signals these folks are sending are not right. And I am sorry you can not see that. I respect your opinions, but don’t think they extend past the “me” factor.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Moats
Why does it seem like you people go out and look for things to cry about all the time. "Holy cow guys that guy is shooting alone and he did not put his barrel plug in and goggles on when they squirrel ran by 500 furlongs down the road."

All i can say is DON'T BUY THE SHIRT!

If it makes you so upset that you can't go on whith your every day life then get some people and don't buy the shirt.

This was the same despute as when the badass goggles came out. Mothers lock you babies up beccause the word *** has be introduced into a sport where profanity can be heard ten fold from the deadbox.

This shirt doesn't bother me and it seems like you people who want to bring Evil to the Supreme Court need to chill a little bit. It's not the end of the world. The paintball police are not going to come shut down the sport because of it.

The sport requires "guns" to "shoot" people, yes i said guns not markers. Lock me up.

All i can say is don't buy it. If they offered to sponser my team i would wear it. Don't make a big deal about nothing. Their shirts will sell. Just wait. Maybe you won't buy one but they will not be hurt. All for Now incert flames below....
How about showing just a LITTLE bit of respect for others? It is easy to attack a person, but harder to stay on topic without insulting people. You should try it.

I HOPE you are not saying that those who you don’t agree with shouldn’t post. I HOPE you are not saying that the only opinions that should be posted are YOURS. I HOPE you are not saying that the only standards of acceptability should be YOURS.

And who are “you people” anyways? It seems to me that those who are against certain aspects of this issue make up a wide range of people. They even at times have disagreed on OTHER issues of acceptability.

This is AO. We will have discussions on MANY topics and issues. And the thing that makes AO so special is that it was created with the idea of, and has always tried to maintain, openness and respect for EVERYONE’s opinions. Sure this doesn’t happen all the time, but it is the goal. I think some members need to keep that in mind.

[Thordic]

Sorry Fred, but I agree with JEDI on this. It seems like AO is copping a "Paintball soccer mom" politically correct attitude lately.

[ogre55]

JEDI: you asked us to leave Evil alone and let the industry police itself. We, as consumers of paintball products, are the industry. You, me and every other person who purchases markers, paintball or any other product. What we hope to do here is police it.

As for letting Evil "police themselves" (which is what I think you meant), if these products do well, the harm this product will cause (and I think it will), will not cause PMI to discontinue it.

PMI is a large company devoted to making money, as all companies are and should be. Their bottom line is the bottom line. If you or I feel strongly about a product and it's good, or bad, qualities, the only way to force a company to see the light is to speak with your wallet. (Damn I'm cyncial)

Ogre

[JEDI]

Shartley, if gave you an Evil tee-shirt, and a glove with a squeegie, would you become a bonus-balling, hit wiping degenerate? I doubt it. You seem too intelligent. So why should we assume, without incident to back it up, that the rest of the Pball community would? I'd rather see intersting ideas grow. It allows more tolerant individuals (thats not a shot at any one)to express themselves in a manner that fits them. I think it takes a certain amount of intelligence to be a Pballer. I think its that amount of intell. that will keep people from actually acting out what a tee shirt implies.

I agree that we need to govern our selves in order to progress as a sport. Gross negligence wouldn't help any thing. I'm simply trying to demonstrate with my AGD analogies, that not every borderline idea results in a complete break down of our sport.

Every advance in our sport is gonna be met with some opposition. Opinion is good, and red flags keep us in check, but burning witches at the stake never really helped.

[Timmee]

Hmm, should we let the industry police itself? As was shown by Jeremy Salm, letting the industry police itself will result in little to nothing being done (I'm referring to the cheating aspect, not the punishment aspect).

Also, AO is not the only place that these shirts were not well recieved. There are others on the Tinker's Guild that have posted on this subject, and the opinion is the same (for the most part).

[shartley]

Originally posted by JEDI
Shartley, if gave you an Evil tee-shirt, and a glove with a squeegie, would you become a bonus-balling, hit wiping degenerate? I doubt it. You seem too intelligent. So why should we assume, without incident to back it up, that the rest of the Pball community would? I'd rather see intersting ideas grow. It allows more tolerant individuals (thats not a shot at any one)to express themselves in a manner that fits them. I think it takes a certain amount of intelligence to be a Pballer. I think its that amount of intell. that will keep people from actually acting out what a tee shirt implies.
The difference is that I would never BUY one of those shirts, nor accept one. It is not about them MAKING folks do something they wouldn’t do otherwise, it is about the appearance that those actions are acceptable. And believe it or not, people tend to do things they perceive are acceptable even if they know they are wrong.

Intelligence is not the issue at hand. I have seen some pretty intelligent folks do some darn stupid things. While I admire your attempt at complimenting me and paintball players in general, the facts are that you can not rely on people’s intelligence to make them do the right things. And that is proven day in and day out in the paintball community. Heck, that is a problem that haunts society in general. You think only stupid or unintelligent people are in jail?

As for tolerance… This is something I have commented on quite a bit lately. Why is it that “tolerance” seems to only flow ONE way? Those who do not think something is acceptable are expected to tolerate it, but those who think it IS acceptable are NOT expected to tolerate those who don’t. LOL

I agree that we need to govern our selves in order to progress as a sport. Gross negligence wouldn't help any thing. I'm simply trying to demonstrate with my AGD analogies, that not every borderline idea results in a complete break down of our sport.
You are correct, not every borderline idea results in a complete breakdown of our sport…. individually. It is the accumulative effect that IS causing a breakdown, and to not see this is to not WANT to. No single raindrop thinks THEY are the cause of the flood.

Every advance in our sport is gonna be met with some opposition. Opinion is good, and red flags keep us in check, but burning witches at the stake never really helped.
If you think these shirts are an “advance” in our sport, I have to say your definition of advance is much different than mine. And I will leave it at that.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Thordic
Sorry Fred, but I agree with JEDI on this. It seems like AO is copping a "Paintball soccer mom" politically correct attitude lately.

I don't know about Fred, but I am the last guy in the world that anyone would call PC. Offensive, yes. Disreputable, sometimes. PC, never. :D

However, my objections are not based on PC or not PC, but on what is best for the sport in the long run. The cheating at WC was bad. And that was before Salm memorialized himself as the biggest schmuck to ever play the game.

Having T-shirts printed up that seem to promote that sort of behavior only makes us look bad to the rest of the world. And lets face it people, public image should be the paramount consideration for us in the present climate.

Frankly, if I saw a foorball t-shirt with (to qoute shartley) “Be Great, Hit Late”, I would think it was damn funny, because football does not have the same problems with it's image as we do.

As both Baltimore and New York City have shown us, we are not loved by the outside world.

Oh and Thordic, I seem to recall that you bragged about being the forth person to sign the petition regarding the problem NYC has with paintball.

Ogre

[Termite]

First, if you are attacking someone because they are voicing an opinion, you should move to a communist country. That is the great thing about America. We all have our own opinions and are free to express them.

Second, it is not what WE think about the "Image of paintball" that matters. We all love paintball and want to play. It is the image precived by PEOPLE THAT DON'T PLAY OR UNDERSTAND PAINTBALL . I'll give you an example, I'm a hunter, I love to hunt as do many other people. There have been a lot of laws passed and there will continue to be laws passed against hunting ( I would not be surprised if hunting is outlawed eventualy, They are trying to do it in the UK as we speak) The reason is there are WAY more ppl that live in the cities and burbs that don't hunt but DO vote. BecauseTHERE PERCEPTION IS THAT HUNTING IS CRUEL they will vote against it, weather this is a true statement or not.

As for what I'm doing about the Evil line of products, I used to own a field and am now a buyer for a different field/store. We buy only the VERY MINIMUM from PMI and will discontinue all purchases from PMI if nessisary. Do they produce good products? Yes! Is it worth the bad perception protrayed to non-paintball educated people? Absolutely NOT!

Termite

[JEDI]

I guess we agree to disagree. Arguing this topic makes me tired. I'm just gonna sit back and let paintball crash and burn. I'm gonna go to confession and repent for all my bad tee shirt wearing sins. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!

[Thordic]

I signed the petition because I'd rather not see paintball banned anywhere.

Signing a petition against banning paintball makes me a soccer mom? :)

Also, I've stated many times, even if you do deem me hypocritical, it doesn't bother me :)

[blnk162]

bonus balling is part of the game....

As much as you dont want to admit it wiping is also....

ANd thordic summed it up...everyone has taken a soccer mom approach to the whole issue...

[Shane-O-Mac]

also did any else catch the new barrel system from PMI?
THE PIPE?
slogan: SMOKE THE PIPE! printed on free stickers even.
i am in agreeance with fred, as it seems to be getting outta hand with product names and t-shirts. if we really care about our sport, we need to step up and let the manufactures know, what we the buying public, think of their product or ad campaign. if you dont agree, thats fine but let others do what they think is right. dont flame or slam anyone for standing up for what they think is hurting their favorite sport.
Shane-O

[shartley]

Originally posted by blnk162
bonus balling is part of the game....

As much as you dont want to admit it wiping is also....

ANd thordic summed it up...everyone has taken a soccer mom approach to the whole issue...
I don’t agree that it is a Soccer Mom approach because someone does not agree with the shirts, but I do think those who are using that term are doing so as some sort of insult… as if Soccer Moms are a BAD thing. LOL

We all know how BAD and EVIL Soccer Moms are. They have also ruined Soccer! BURN THEM! ;)

Heck, I have been both a Soccer Dad and Football Dad, but that would hardly be any grounds to associate my thought process. I am far from being Politically Correct, and just because I supported my children’s sporting events does not lock me into any specific way of thinking. Hey! Isn’t that just like folks wanting others not drawing conclusions about paintball players just because they participate in the sport? ;)

BUT.. if you think about it, looking at what has been happening lately, Soccer Moms and Dads seem like a rough crowd! Or is that Baseball Moms and Dads, or Football, or Hockey, I get so confused… after all, I don’t want to mislabel anyone. ;)

Come on folks, can we be just a little more mature about expressing our opinions and not put labels on people who disagree with your way of thinking? Would that be such a hard thing to do? After all, those who disagree with the t-shirts have not tossed around any labels or names concerning those that think it is okay. Respect goes both ways, I suggest remembering that, or your side of the argument will be shot down for the very reasons some of us don’t like the shirts.

[Spaceman613]

Didnt see the slogan for the pipe Shane.... Thats a lil overboard. I think they could have found something much more fun.

Also, bonus balling and wiping might be part of YOUR game, but it isnt part of mine...

But never EVER wiping. When I need to wipe to win, is the day I leave the game.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Thordic
Also, I've stated many times, even if you do deem me hypocritical, it doesn't bother me :) [/B]

Apologies if that is how it came off, it was not meant to be that way.

Ogre

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Shane-O-Mac
[B]also did any else catch the new barrel system from PMI?
THE PIPE?
slogan: SMOKE THE PIPE! printed on free stickers even.


To all that do not have a problem with the approach that paintball marketing seems to be headed in, I have questions. How would you feel if the Louisville Slugger were renamed to say, the Corker or the Skull Crakcer?

I had a few more suggestions, but I didn't think they would be appropriate on a family board.

Ogre

[covadsucks]

You folks forgot one thing in all this bickering amongst yourselves. Unless you all send emails/letters to PMI, the EVIL campaign will still roll along and keep putting out said shirts. You should all take some time by sending a letter to PMI's Director of Marketing or VP of Operations. You know how quickly that campaign will be looked into if you continue to send letters to the Customer Response Team Member Mike? All it takes is a key stroke to delete your messages. Go up the food chain at PMI and and see some serious results, it works that way in every industry you can think of.

Just my $.02

[battlegroup]

I sent an E-mail to Pmi as well and received the exact same reply as fred...word for word. It seems it is a canned response. Maybe they have been getting e-mails and drafted that response up to reply to everyone.

I agree with those of you who think this is poor taste in advertising. Paintball has enough problems with the general public's perception of the sport. Hence the problems in New York and Baltimore. If Paintball does get banned in any city, Look out! As they say "**** rolls downhill, and gains momentum" We don't need ANY advertising that can be even remotely bad or perceived as bad, because peception is the rule. If one city bans paintball and another city see this, and has even one incident with paintball the bans will roll and gain momentum. Like it or not, Paintball players are in the minority when it comes to voters, and people who have a bad perception of the sport will win if it comes to a vote.

For those of you who support the shirts or say just let it be, ask yourself this: Could this advertising cause misconceptions about the Sport? And then ask yourself: Could this advertising advance the sport in any way? My answers are Yes and No respectively. I for one want to keep playing Paintball and I will Boycott PMI if they don't discontinue the Advertising, and stated that in my letter to them. I urge you to do the same.

[Fred]

Anyone who calls ME Politically Correct had better try to get to know me a little bit better. Just as my liberal co-workers (all of them are liberal...), they like having me around to keep things interesting. :)

Soccer mom mentality? Sorry, but if I'm coming off as concerned for paintball as a sport, that's exactly what I am trying to get across.

Giving me a shirt that says refs suck, or wiping is ok, or a glove that makes wiping easier won't make me wipe, but a newbie or experienced cheater will see it on the store wall and feel that their actions are being supported by the manufacturer, that it is OK do keep the unsportsmanlike conduct going.

Wiping part of the game? Just try it after I see one of my shots break on you at my field. I'll haul you in to the head ref and personally help him get your information and polaroid to add you to the known cheaters file. 2 offenses and you're banned. period.

---Fred

EDIT: Added: Thanks to whichever moderator made this a sticky thread... I hope to spread the word some more about this.

[warpfeedmod]

maybe it's just me but I can't find a link to these shirts that everyone's talking about. Did they remove them from the website already?

[Fred]

the shirts were on display at world cup, and the pics are in those threads IIRC. They might be on Warpig too.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
...you had better not disrespect me...

SHartley, your grammer is slipping. ;) Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :D

(For the grammatically challenged, disrespect is not a verb.)

[hitech]

I don?t agree with the T-shirts at all, but I did find these funny.

"It also comes standard with a sweet *** black to clear fade, further propelling you to be ulra hip. This barrel also is the most accurate barrel ever and shoots farther as well. Basically it defies all laws of physics."

That one is poking fun at the misconceptions of what a barrel can do.

"The best part is definitely the lens spanning squeegee to precisely remove any spray or what you told the ref was spray."

That is funny. I don't think it condones cheating, I just think it is funny.

"These are heavily padded over the back of the glove and over the knuckles, to carefully protect your hands during a fist fight."

This one is a little too much, but I think that someone reading the web site would understand that they are NOT condoning fist fighting. At least, I think so.

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech


SHartley, your grammer is slipping. ;) Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :D

(For the grammatically challenged, disrespect is not a verb.)

HeeHee Some would disagree with you on that...

disrespect

n 1: an expression of lack of respect [syn: discourtesy] 2: a disrespectful mental attitude [ant: respect] 3: a manner that is generally disrespectful and contemptuous [syn: contempt] v 1: show a lack of respect for [ant: respect] 2: have little or no respect for; hold in contempt [syn: disesteem] [ant: respect, respect]

Source: Dictionary.com ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley

disrespect

v 1: show a lack of respect for [ant: respect] 2: have little or no respect for; hold in contempt [syn: disesteem] [ant: respect, respect]

Source: Dictionary.com ;)

That's news to me. Now you're going to make me find my "old" dictionary....

Okay, found it. Ih shows "disrepect" as a transitive verb. So, I guess your usage was correct. I have always thought that usage was incorrect. I stand corrected. ;)

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech


That's news to me. Now you?re going to make me find my "old" dictionary....
Nahhh.... I will just pretend you didn't bring it up. ;)

[big E kingpin]

i wonder what Tom thinks of this

[shartley]

Originally posted by big E kingpin
i wonder what Tom thinks of this
I don’t think Tom would really care if “disrespect” was a verb or not. ;)

Oh… on the issue of the shirts and stuff…… Well, my guess is that he would keep his opinion to himself on that issue being a fellow manufacturer in the industry…. Along with other reasons. :)

[big E kingpin]

fare enough, i was kinda woondering wwhat a fellow member of the industry would have to say. thats all

[AGD]

Well what do I think about this.....

This is the second time I have seen a major player (the first one was WDP) explode on the scene with what they were absoulutely sure was a winner only to have everyone tilt their heads and say "huh??"

My personal philosophy is that I am now too old and stupid to know what's cool and what isn't. The one thing I DO know is that it's a super fine line between the two. Thats why I live here listening to all of you. Each of you represents my collective brain cells. I don't think many of the big guys in the industry have figured this out yet and are still functioning on what they thought was true years ago. I think this idea was a two second decision that went somthing like this "if they want edgy then we will give it to them"

Personally I didn't like them, didn't understand them and didn't have any idea if you would like it or not. That's why I stuck this to get more feedback. You told me with the billboard that we were right on the edge of going too far or maybe a little over. Since then we haven't done anything like that. I think these companies see the billboard and try to one up it without knowing what's really going on.

Given the unforseen cheating issue it was not the best time to say "refs suck". On the other hand like Mancow says there is no bad publicity. Remember Facefull's first issue with the (almost) nudity? EVERYONE complained about that and what happened? They backed off a little and Facefull was instantly emblazoned in everone's mind and today they are the most respected magazine. Funny isn't it?

If Evil backs off it might be a briliant marketing move since none of you hold a grudge very long. We will have to see.

AGD

[shartley]

Good answer Tom. :D

[Jonneh]

Being a smelly Limey Brit, I obviously don't know too much about you american chaps, but since when did you start obeying text written on a t-shirt?

To me this just seems like the rehashed 'Video games cause our children to murder grannies' argument. People (on the most part) are clever enough to realise that the above shirts are aimed at the young "Conformist Rebel" who think that breaking the rules, listening to Linkin Park and generally raging against the machine will make them the very essence of cool. I think that if anyone is found taking explicit orders from another persons shirt, we should all just kill ourselves and start over.

Saying "Don't break the rules" is fine, but this is obviously not serious, and if you really beleive that anyone will take this seriously, then I really feel you outta step out of your bubble of unrelenting political correctness and spend some time in the real world.

I couldn't think of a witty method to relevantly include this picture in with my text. You'll have to think of one for yourself
http://www.digitalbrain.com/Jonneh/5096.jpg

[TastePAINt88]

I would like to bring up a concern of mine.
I first started paintballing last Christmas, so its been a year now, I received a Sheridan XTS that has never failed me. Then I purchased a used spyder that has failed me so many times thatI lost count, and have put 10+ plus hours of work into it. Thankfully it works now as I have either modified or replaced all of the parts in it. One of the products I put into it was a PMI Tubro Valve. I have always suggested a PMI Pirahna over a Spyder of any type, even a Spyder Flash against a PMI Bl VF G3, a complete base marker against a well upgraded spyder. I currently run an Automag but hope I enfluenced more Pirahna users. I usually always buy RPS Marbilizer or PMI Premuims, cause I beleive it to be the best paint on the market. I always wanted to be on a succesful team sponsored by PMI but now my opinoin has changed.
The new Evil line comes out.
UGH!
"This barrel will make you a better player" For one, no, no barrel,or any equipment will make any player a better player. It may help with putting well placed balls, but a peice of equipment may only change mental abilities "Now with my new gun I am a better player" and this player may becoem more agressive or fearless, thus making more bunker moves, and a better player, but no, this may appeal to newbies, but not to most people. You may ask if I fall under the newbie category. My skills are not the greatest but I tried to increase my knowledge as much as I could, so with new tips in mind I may be able to increase my skills.
The Evil line of products I beleive has spoiled the PMI reputation, and I am boycotting the purchase or use of Evil products, in hopes to help the companies new products not do so well, and the company to withdraw there product. I know one 14 year old may not make a diferance, but I may try.

These are heavily padded over the back of the glove and over the knuckles, to carefully protect your hands during a fist fight.

These is a direct quote from your sight, along with the better player above mentioned. Dont tell me PMI has come to support fighting when once this was the only paint I would trust through my hopper.

If we want to support paintball to people that hate it, and are unknowedgable to the sport, Evil products should not be carrie through to the public, it will give them the wrong impression of painball

I recently sent a letter to the NYC commissoner concerning the ban in New York, would this person see evil and use it against me? I hope my favorite and most trusted air and paint company will not turn out to be the one thing that does not help the NYC ban go the way it should really go.





I hope this helps out the boycott

[845]

As much as you dont want to admit it wiping is also....

Wiping is not and never will be part of the sport.

[Fred]

Thanks for your input Tom!

TastePAINt88- I am stating that I am not going to use, or purchase anything from the Evil line of products, there is no official boycott of any kind. If you choose for yourself to also not use their products, I find we're in very close agreement.

[blnk162]

Originally posted by 845


Wiping is not and never will be part of the sport.

Not in podunk 3 mans...

Do you play in the nppl.....not just restricted to wiping but cheating in general is part of the nppl...wether you like it or not...


Wether it be wiping, playing on, biased reffing, dropping pods for backplayers against aftershock in the finals coughgreenspancough...its part of the nppl...if you played it you would know.....

[agdemagman69]

Im gonna have to agree with blnk163 on that, ive seen back players getted clipped in the leg, and they reach down for a squeege and its gone...

cheating is rampant in the nppl... (just look at avalanche)

[Sinnet]

Originally posted by blnk162


Not in podunk 3 mans...

Do you play in the nppl.....not just restricted to wiping but cheating in general is part of the nppl...wether you like it or not...


Wether it be wiping, playing on, biased reffing, dropping pods for backplayers against aftershock in the finals coughgreenspancough...its part of the nppl...if you played it you would know.....

Yes, wiping happens and we all know it. Until we get a better way to prevent it, it'll still happen.

However, I think what 845 meant (which I wholeheartedly agree with) is that wiping is not a legitimate part of the Sport, and therefore shouldn't be included as part of the sport of paintball.

[blnk162]

Originally posted by Sinnet


Yes, wiping happens and we all know it. Until we get a better way to prevent it, it'll still happen.

However, I think what 845 meant (which I wholeheartedly agree with) is that wiping is not a legitimate part of the Sport, and therefore shouldn't be included as part of the sport of paintball.

Like I said..... we dont like it but it is part of the sport, its just as much as the sport as bunkering someone and sweetspotting...theres techniques to snap shoot....theres also techniques to wipe a hit...

[agdemagman69]

actually, now that i think about it there are techniques... have you ever seen a front player run off the break with his hand in front of his face?

instead of getting shot in the gogs he gets shot in the hands and wipes it in the bunker...

[blnk162]

Originally posted by agdemagman69
actually, now that i think about it there are techniques... have you ever seen a front player run off the break with his hand in front of his face?

instead of getting shot in the gogs he gets shot in the hands and wipes it in the bunker...

ehhhhh yes and no, you take more bounces off of a hand then your lense...and its mad balla style to run like that...i know I run like that...all the cool cats do :D

[aint_got_no_nubbinz]

yea, there is a lot of cheating going on in the nppl. Blink162 and Agdemagman69 are right.

[aint_got_no_nubbinz]

one great example would be avalanche. but they got caught, most nppl players dont get caught, and that is part of the sport.

[Trunnion]

i think there's a difference between "part of the sport" and "what the pros do." if it's part of the sport, like grabbing the flag or sliding into bunkers, then it's sanction actions and objectives of the game. if it's in the rules as being an offense worthy of a penalty, it is explicitly NOT a part of the sport. just because it is rampant and people(namely the pros, but i see a number of rec ballers do it too) can be seen doing it, doesn't mean it's "part of the sport." it's merely involved with the sport, and it really shouldn't be. i'd like to see the 3 for 1 penalty for wiping used on occasion, but i've never heard of any ref pulling 4 people from one team for one offense(but i'll be honest, my personal experience with tournaments is nil. still, like i said, i've never heard of such punishment being enacted). wiping, playing on, cheating in general are not part of the sport. if they were, they wouldn't be cheating

[blnk162]

Is hooking a guy in hockey cheating? Well theres a penalty called for it so it must be...

And yes 3 for 1's do happen they are so funny when they do also....

And its not just the pros man....everyone cheats......

[WhoDaresPlay]

Originally posted by Webmaster
Hmm - someone needs to get out more. I saw a dye or a JT with a thing that looked like it would squeegee on the palm part of the thumb. I mean - why else would that part be there...

JT advertises as a quick and easy way to wipe off spray from your goggles after the game.

[IAMJaws]

I 've read this thread and i got my $.05CDN to put down on this:

I looked at the websiet and I found it fairly un-offencive to me; a fairly MATURE 19 year-old, with almost two years of paintball experience, who's always looking for the peice of HIGH-END(which Evil is) gear.

All this is targeted humor at a certain demographic,in the SPORT.

the humor is ridicule, it's Satire.
A Canadian author, Will Ferguson, once said that people like to be ridiculed, because that which can be Ridiculed can be being Examined.

Tom makes a hell of a point with the Facefull example.

The moment we take ourselves too seriously, we start dealing with the crap that most other sports deal with, like strikes, lockouts, friggin' riots, crooked owners, crooked leagues (we might be ther already). And all of that.

[blnk162]

Originally posted by IAMJaws
I 've read this thread and i got my $.05CDN to put down on this:

I looked at the websiet and I found it fairly un-offencive to me; a fairly MATURE 19 year-old, with almost two years of paintball experience, who's always looking for the peice of HIGH-END(which Evil is) gear.

All this is targeted humor at a certain demographic,in the SPORT.

the humor is ridicule, it's Satire.
A Canadian author, Will Ferguson, once said that people like to be ridiculed, because that which can be Ridiculed can be being Examined.

Tom makes a hell of a point with the Facefull example.

The moment we take ourselves too seriously, we start dealing with the crap that most other sports deal with, like strikes, lockouts, friggin' riots, crooked owners, crooked leagues (we might be ther already). And all of that.

werd

[IAMJaws]

How so?

[shartley]

Originally posted by IAMJaws
I 've read this thread and i got my $.05CDN to put down on this:

I looked at the websiet and I found it fairly un-offencive to me; a fairly MATURE 19 year-old, with almost two years of paintball experience, who's always looking for the peice of HIGH-END(which Evil is) gear.
I think you are forgetting that the first word you highlighted throws the monkey wrench into your argument. And I would consider Angels pretty high end also, but how many kids (and other players who DON’T have two years experience) do we see running around with them? Also, I know many players that have been playing 5 or more years that are still pretty clueless about things… ever taken a trip over to PBN?

Also a good deal of what this discussion is about is NOT on that site. LOL They DO produce the T-Shirts in question, but they are not displayed on that site at this time.

All this is targeted humor at a certain demographic,in the SPORT.
And if you “target” a building with a smart bomb, but it takes out the building next to it, would that be perfectly fine since the building “targeted” was a military one? How about if you are a police sharp shooter and you have to take out a bad guy, so you put your weapon on full auto and let it rock taking out 12 civilians along with the “targeted” person? Is that okay because the person “targeted” was the goal?

I feel this type of targeting is the same…. They are carelessly spraying crap out there with no regard to the consequences. As long as they make a buck.. NO PROBLEM.

Also, we all know that kids don’t emulate what they consider appropriate actions of those they “look up to” or think are cool. ;)

the humor is ridicule, it's Satire.
A Canadian author, Will Ferguson, once said that people like to be ridiculed, because that which can be Ridiculed can be being Examined.
I highly doubt this is an issue of noble intent to open eyes on the problems in our sport. It is a blatant use of punk mentality, which is a major problem in our sport, to sell products. Period.

Your example would allow me to make “smoke crack, its good for you”, “shoot up today, it’s the way”, T-Shirts because I may find them funny and I could fall back on saying it is so the issue can be “examined”. That is a load of crap, and we all know it. ;)


Tom makes a hell of a point with the Facefull example.
Yes, he does, but it COULD have backfired. Being lucky is not what I would call a “good example to follow”. But what do you think would have happened if noone commented on what they saw, and that it may be a bit over the edge? You got it.. NOTHING. So I am sorry to have to tell you, you can not use the argument of change without admitting the reason for it was player concern and them stating so. That is what is happening here and now. It should also extend past AO… which from what I see, it is.

The moment we take ourselves too seriously, we start dealing with the crap that most other sports deal with, like strikes, lockouts, friggin' riots, crooked owners, crooked leagues (we might be ther already). And all of that.
I agree… we can reach a point where we take ourselves too seriously. However, we first have to START taking our sport seriously to begin with. ;) And that is part of the problem. As for the other issues you bring up, those issues are also the same ones that happen with all business. Well, except for riots. ;)

Yes, there will always be problems. But simply ignoring problems now because more will be coming is silly. We have to deal with each problem and issue as we face it. Some can be avoided with planning, but most will just have to be handled when the time comes. At this stage in the game, what EVIL is doing is trivializing problems (see you may see it as satire, but some of us consider it trivializing, which is much different) to make a buck. Neither help the sport as a whole.

[agdemagman69]

ok, you guys are taking this WAYYYYYYYYY to seriously....

we need to be able to laugh at ourselves, for example i saw a player at an nppl event that had a shirt that said "Paintball sucks"... i laughed

[TastePAINt88]

Originally posted by Fred
Thanks for your input Tom!

TastePAINt88- I am stating that I am not going to use, or purchase anything from the Evil line of products, there is no official boycott of any kind. If you choose for yourself to also not use their products, I find we're in very close agreement.

Im not going to be buying any kind of evil products anytime soon I think, but they went a bit too far for this product line"These are heavily padded over the back of the glove and over the knuckles, to carefully protect your hands during a fist fight." What are they now trying to promote, Im wondering if I should still get RPS paint. BUt I mean, Im definatly with the boycott of Evil, if there is one, or just to myself. Doesnt matter though.

[shartley]

Originally posted by agdemagman69
ok, you guys are taking this WAYYYYYYYYY to seriously....

we need to be able to laugh at ourselves, for example i saw a player at an nppl event that had a shirt that said "Paintball sucks"... i laughed
What harm to the sport could "Paintball Sucks" have? I however don't see how that compares to "Fefs Suck", or things that glorify cheating or other unacceptable actions.

Again, when looked at with a narrow field of vision, it is easy to dismiss ANYTHING bad. But what I think is being missed is the accumulative effect of ALL of these things.

I am not about to stop working and grab a picket and stand outside PMI's Corporate Office, but I don't think discussing this is a BAD thing, or that anyone is over reacting. And I might suggest that YOU feel that some people are taking this way to seriously, which is an opinion, and fine as such, but others might suggest that some of you are taking this thing way too lightly. I would also suggest that some of us take the sport in general, and its future, more seriously than others do, even if we are just Rec. Players. Watch out when swinging those swords, they tend to have two edges.

I for one will not purchase any EVIL Product either. And I will not stop saying how wrong they are in their product choice and tactics.

On that note, another thing I think some folks are missing by a mile is that I don’t think any of us who are against this issue feel it is the MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD. LOL We are not going to stop our lives until this issue is dealt with. But that does not mean we are not going to express our dislike for it, and even modify our shopping choices and habits because of it. It also does not mean that we will not contact the PMI Corporate Office either. Again, that does not mean we feel this is the only problem out there, or that it is the worse thing we have seen…. But ignoring each issue that faces our sport because it is a separate and not related issue, would mean NOTHING gets fixed. Again, I point to the raindrop analogy… no single raindrop thinks it is responsible for the flood.

[RamboPreacher]

What’s kewl and what's not… what’s PC and what's not:

[Insert image of RP stepping up to the soap-box]
yup, someday, somebody will do something.... NOT.

As a paintball activist of sorts, I tell people that "YOU" are the somebody and YOU should be the one telling people. Write to the producers, send emails to the webmasters -whatever you want, but don't try to get somebody else to do it for you.

Step out of the comfort-zone. If we don't have time to write an email or letter, then it must not be a very big priority, now, right?

We all need to be adults about these things and express our thoughts calmly in letters and emails, not swearing or using slang or jargon that the common man doesn't understand.

I write to congresspersons, and representatives, and other political persons, as well as paintball product manufactures regularly about paintball - it's not hard, just do it, and you may be surprised that if your not is clear and not belligerent, they may even write back asking for more details or want to talk to you about the situation!!!

The bottom line is that it is all about us as individuals doing what we can to make this great republic of ours a great place to live and work. I couldn't imagine living in a country that restricted or outlawed paintball like in non-American locations around the world.

It's up to us to educate the populous and politicians and movie producers, and manufactures, etc about paintball. Paintball is a fun; family sport, and even big fat, bald, ugly guys like me can play and have a great time.

[RP stepping down off his soap-box]

[agdemagman69]

I agree that discussing this is good.

First off, i think we can all agree that SOME REFS SUCK... either there not paying attention or there making bogus calls.

Just because they say "its got extra padding which is great for a fist fight" DOESNT MEAN PEOPLE ARE GONNA BUY THEM TO FIGHT WITH... IT WAS A JOKE, they were making a statement about how heavily padded it was. (and dont start complaining about padding/ bounces)

there just advertising there things differently, its got a pizazz to it. its differnt than the cold advertising from other companies.

I love Evil paint, it all i use because it is the best paint out there. And they have statements on the box that say "not for newbies" and "this paint will make you a better player" But when i bought the paint i didnt judge it by what it said on the box, i judged it by the quality.
and i think thats what you people should do too. DO NOT judge them until you try their products... The majority of their products dont have any slogans on them (only the shirts do) so its not like your going to be displaying these slanderous phrases all over your fields. I would suggest only boycotting the shirts.

[shartley]

Originally posted by agdemagman69
I love Evil paint, it all i use because it is the best paint out there. And they have statements on the box that say "not for newbies" and "this paint will make you a better player" But when i bought the paint i didnt judge it by what it said on the box, i judged it by the quality.
and i think thats what you people should do too. DO NOT judge them until you try their products... The majority of their products dont have any slogans on them (only the shirts do) so its not like your going to be displaying these slanderous phrases all over your fields. I would suggest only boycotting the shirts.
I would agree with this but one fact.... you CAN judge them by the products they sell, AND what it says on the box. This does not mean they have bad quality, only bad judgment. And that is what this issue is about.

You can't just not buy the shirts, what message does that send? Heck you would not have purchased it in the first place. To make a statement you have to not buy ANY of their products.... that is how boycotting works. ;)

And you bet it is important what is written in adds and on the box, we on AO have been strict on that from day one. And if you don’t think folks buy a product because of what it says on the box or in adds, you are mistaken. Who is to draw the line then? Who is to determine what people will KNOW is a joke and what is a downright false claim used to sell the product to ignorant people…. Heck, take a look at W.A.S. ;)

[WicKeD_WaYz]

I didnt find their products offensive what so ever. I respect those of you who do. If you feel the need to boycot great paint and great products just because of a slogan then thats your choice. I've shot Evil paint on and off for a while now and i love it. If i ever see one of the t shirts around that "promote bad things" i will probably buy one of those too...just for kicks. By buying a shirt doesnt mean im gunna wipe paint. By buying gloves that have padded knuckles doesnt mean im gunna go start a fight.

And yes cheating is a part of our sport at all levels. It just gets more serious and more talked about it the pro's. But like it or not we will never be able to eliminate cheating no matter how long we b****. It is something that will happen whether EVIL paintball is around or not.

[Shaft]

Looks like a good ad campaign to me.
They managed to take a new product line (which looks exactly like everyone else's product line) and look...
They scored a three page thread on the biggest paintball forum!

Sides.. I think the site and everything is good stuff. I don't believe in sheltering the ignorant and stupid. I think PC has gone overboard.

[agdemagman69]

no, i disaggree...

If you dont buy their shirts, then they will realize that they are not selling, and since their not making selling, then there not making $$$, and since they are not making $$ they will most likely STOP SELLING THEM....

[IAMJaws]

Shartly, you want it you got it.

when I said mature I meant mature like one who could see an R rated movie.

To the second point, at least unlike american fighter Pilots, they were at least aiming at the right target.

I'm not going to defend this marketing as perfect, because it's not. they are being responsible in the fact that they are leaving rhetoirc like that on the t-shirts, out of print ad's, which is arguably their biggest outlet for marketing.

As far as the T-shirts go the "refs suck shirt makes a valid point. there are alot of reffing problems in the sport (I have yet to deal with any, thankfully), and it's a valid critisism. I would also bet that if you were take a pole of thoes who wear that shirt, alot of thoes guys have ref'd before.

The Cheating Shirt is in poorer taste. If I saw someone wearing it at the field, it would just be motivation for me to beat 'em clean, beside most of the thoes guys in the shirts probably play the game straight anyway.

As for the point you make on satire, if "smoke crack, its good for you” and “shoot up today, it’s the way”, then you must lead a very sad and humorless life, my friend.

Some of you gusy need to remove that freak kit you have cramed up a certain orfus.

Besides this is small potatoes, compared to real problems of the sport . The NPPL and PSP are about to split, and only god knows what havoc will be reaped then. Let's not forget the crappy venues at both Las Vegas, and Atlantic City, The PRO seems to be working about as well as a Ford with underinflated tires. And US Paintball is Neck Deep in Politics. and let's not even talk about thoes super-sensitive politicians who think that paintball markers should be banned (even though they won't ban real guns!!)

That's all I got.

[shartley]

Originally posted by agdemagman69
no, i disaggree...

If you dont buy their shirts, then they will realize that they are not selling, and since their not making selling, then there not making $$$, and since they are not making $$ they will most likely STOP SELLING THEM....
Let me explain it better….. if those who would never buy the shirts in the first place don’t buy them… it does not change the number of sales that ARE made. What message was sent? None.

People will ALWAYS find other people willing to buy things the rest of us would never think of buying, but that does not mean it should be sold. “If you stop buying crack, the dealers will see that it is not selling, and they will go away.” Same principle. Some products just don’t go away by rational and sensible people not buying them.

However, if you can impact another product that brings in even more revenue for them, you have sent a message. If they are already selling the shirts, and they are happy with their current sales, how would US not buying them change their minds? It simply would not.

To stop the sale of an item you often have to affect other things besides the actual sale of that one item or line of items.

I will give you another example. I received a magazine about 2 years ago. It was its first issue. I was horrified at the language in the magazine and its “edgy” design. It claimed to be a magazine for Executives, but looked like it was designed by punk kids with no class. Come to find out it WAS designed by young folks that thought they represented the target demographic….. WRONG! I contacted this Magazine and my concerns were met with “We are doing nothing wrong. You are just over reacting.”

Well, obviously I could not affect their sales or their minds about content and style by not purchasing their magazine (that thus far I was receiving for free). So, what to do…… I looked at all the ads in the magazine and contacted each of the advertisers (Who were quite large players in the Internet and Computer Industries). I asked them if they had even read the magazine. Most had not, and those that did were not pleased with what they saw. Those that had not were then read brief excerpts from the magazine, and they too were not pleased.

Shortly there after, I was contacted by the Editors of this magazine. They were pissed (to say the least). It seems that they did not like me contacting their advertising clientele. They were extremely rude to me and accused me of harassment of them and their advertising clients. However, I was at this time still having discussions with some of these clients of theirs, and they did not feel I was harassing them in any way. In fact, they ALL thanked me.

Needless to say, the next issue was less edgy, and continued to become less so. The magazine is now no longer being printed, but is only an online publication. And they have changed their target demographic from Executives to “Geeks” (their words).

So I hope this puts things in a little different light. While you may not agree that anything more than not buying the shirts is needed, it is clear that by those of us who would not buy them anyway not doing so, it would change nothing.

[shartley]

Originally posted by IAMJaws
Shartly, you want it you got it.

when I said mature I meant mature like one who could see an R rated movie.

To the second point, at least unlike american fighter Pilots, they were at least aiming at the right target.

I'm not going to defend this marketing as perfect, because it's not. they are being responsible in the fact that they are leaving rhetoirc like that on the t-shirts, out of print ad's, which is arguably their biggest outlet for marketing.

As far as the T-shirts go the "refs suck shirt makes a valid point. there are alot of reffing problems in the sport (I have yet to deal with any, thankfully), and it's a valid critisism. I would also bet that if you were take a pole of thoes who wear that shirt, alot of thoes guys have ref'd before.

The Cheating Shirt is in poorer taste. If I saw someone wearing it at the field, it would just be motivation for me to beat 'em clean, beside most of the thoes guys in the shirts probably play the game straight anyway.

As for the point you make on satire, if "smoke crack, its good for you” and “shoot up today, it’s the way”, then you must lead a very sad and humorless life, my friend.

Some of you gusy need to remove that freak kit you have cramed up a certain orfus.

Besides this is small potatoes, compared to real problems of the sport . The NPPL and PSP are about to split, and only god knows what havoc will be reaped then. Let's not forget the crappy venues at both Las Vegas, and Atlantic City, The PRO seems to be working about as well as a Ford with underinflated tires. And US Paintball is Neck Deep in Politics. and let's not even talk about thoes super-sensitive politicians who think that paintball markers should be banned (even though they won't ban real guns!!)

That's all I got.
Did I resort to personal insults? Then why did you? Because of this, you lost your argument before you began.....

And small potatoes are still potatoes. I never said the larger problems should not be dealt with, in fact I am first in line on those issues as well. But because a problem may be small does not mean it should be ignored.

I would advise learning some tact, and drop the personal insults if you expect to talk to me. I did not disrespect you, so why on earth would you think I would allow you to do so to me? It is this lack of respect that is part of the problem….. You are your own worse enemy.

[Fred]

Originally posted by IAMJaws


when I said mature I meant mature like one who could see an R rated movie.



Being old enough to view R-rated movies is different than being mature enough to select what material you want to expose yourself to, and what material you would personally promote.

[Fred]

Originally posted by RamboPreacher


As a paintball activist of sorts, I tell people that "YOU" are the somebody and YOU should be the one telling people. Write to the producers, send emails to the webmasters -whatever you want, but don't try to get somebody else to do it for you.

Step out of the comfort-zone. If we don't have time to write an email or letter, then it must not be a very big priority, now, right?



YES! EXACTLY! :)

[IAMJaws]

I would advise you to perhaps you re-examine your own argument, to determine its original impact, and how I may have construde it as a attack on myself.

Besides, my entier point is that somepeople around here have to develope a bit of a sence of humor.

Also, citing my use of "personal Insults" and critisizing my debating technique, really dosen't prove you point any better either.

Get rid of thoes "personal insults" and there are stil alot of valid counterpoints to your response

Another point is we've wasted three pages on these small potatoes.

were being entierly too politically correct on this subject.
last thing this sport needs is a bunch of sanctamonious whiners running around turning paintball into major league Baseball, and the NFL.

[shartley]

Originally posted by IAMJaws
I would advise you to perhaps you re-examine your own argument, to determine its original impact, and how I may have construde it as a attack on myself.

Besides, my entier point is that somepeople around here have to develope a bit of a sence of humor.

Also, citing my use of "personal Insults" and critisizing my debating technique, really dosen't prove you point any better either.

Get rid of thoes "personal insults" and there are stil alot of valid counterpoints to your response

Another point is we've wasted three pages on these small potatoes.

were being entierly too politically correct on this subject.
last thing this sport needs is a bunch of sanctamonious whiners running around turning paintball into major league Baseball, and the NFL.
What? That is one hell of a leap there. My argument is aimed at EVIL and what I think of their shirts, not about what I think of you. What you posted however was a direct insult, and would provide me with enough to understand that you may be a part of the problem as well… but then again, you may not be. Personally insulting folks will never get them to agree with you, or even want to listen to your points of view.

I cited your insults and debating technique because that was the only thing I felt was worth even commenting on. No, that in itself does not prove my points…. I never said it did. But because I did not debate your points does not mean that yours were proven as valid, or that mine were not.

And sorry, but your thinking that even after getting rid of your insults will leave a lot of valid counterpoints is wrong. I did not comment on them because some of what you said may be true, but are not valid counterpoints in my opinion. There is a difference.

But I get the sinking suspicion that you are the type that as long as you are the last one yelling (note I did not say talking), you feel you have won. You handled this calm and rational debate with the skill and deftness of a bull in a china shop stung by a bee.

And one might also argue that the last thing this sport needs is more trailer park trash with a few extra bucks stinking up the place and brining the sport back 10 years. Please understand, I am NOT saying that is what YOU are, but you might be a bit more careful tossing around those names and labels. Some of us actually care about this sport and WOULD like it to advance.

Thank you for your time, but for you I have no more.. at least not for this issue. It is obvious that we will never see eye to eye on this issue, so why bother dancing?

[blnk162]

This is all so funny....

Its like everything that has happened with eminem.....

Its all shock and it sells and its marketing ingeniusnes(sp,word?)

Its all so funny to me actually....but whatever SMOKE THE PIPE! lol

[IAMJaws]

You know what let's call a truce here:
it's a touchy argument, people tend to get worked up on things like this,let's agree to agree and disagree on some basic points:

Agree:

- Paintball is a great sport.

- Paintball has an image problem.

- High level torunament paintball has alot of inner political problems.

- Extremists, being ovretly PC or out spoken, is bad for the sport

- we probably agree onthings oher han this.

Disagree:

- What tasteful satire or parody is.

- The impact and intent of targeted marketing.

- Whether self-deprevating humor for us, is damaging to bee seen by thoes outside the sport.

you have you opinion, I have mine, we'll call it that, and that's the end of it.

[shartley]

I agree.

You will see (if you have not notice already) that I let things go pretty easy. I also don’t tend to hold grudges over little things, or let them over flow into other issues on the forums. All is well…. life goes on… see you on the forum. :D

And good form.... I am impressed. Good job.

[Spaceman613]

What are the chances that PMI/evil just made 10 of each shirt to get a rise out of us? Maybe it IS a clever way of getting their name out, and with a big presence?

Lots of pics on WARPIG, Tinker Guild, AOG, PPIG, and other forums I’m sure have mention "evil."

New apparel line? Or clever marketing ruse?

[IAMJaws]

defianly... our sport dosn't need more infighting than it already has.
this whole thing could easily degerate in to a cycle of accusations, that would waste both time and effort.
maybe next time we'll be on the same side of the argument.

[Jonno06]

well,the name of the company is EVIL-PAINTBALL..the webmaster is obviously someone from Aftershock.And their website has a DISCLAIMER saying he is "whack",and to disregard some of the stuff he says.

personally..I love their website,and plan on buying some,or alot,of Evil's products.

[Fred]

I don't think this topic has anything to do with political correctness, political correctness is generally associated with people using the correct liberal terminology, I am taking a very anti-pc, anti-liberal stance on this...

I am not personally insulting anyone, rather, I am stating my opinion, that is shared by many others, that I am disgusted with their product line.

I have a sense of humor, but when it comes to the public image of my favorite sport/activity, I get serious.

Heck, you think I could show my name around here after the pics of me at Shatnerball if I didn't have a sense of humor??? :rolleyes:

If you want to support a line of products that is hurting the sport we love, that's your bag to deal with. I can't stop you.

---Fred

[Colin]

I disagree with those of you who have laid faith in the intelligence/good sense of paintball players. There are certainly plenty of players with sound judgement, etc, but I have come across an incredibly large number of players that are absolute boneheads. They frequent certain forums (I think this forum may have skimmed off the cream and left many of them behind) and I see them out on the field. I don't think we should tolerate anything that could be viewed as encouragement for the behaviors mentioned on the shirts. It's kind of like removing all sharp objects from the area in which little kids will be playing. I think Evil has a tolerable approach overall, but it should be toned down a bit.

[agdemagman69]

hey, what makes you think its someone from aftershock????

[ogre55]

Hello all:

I see a lot of people mentioning two things. The public image problems of the sport and how they effect it politically and how this ad campaign effects our image. But no one seems to be putting these two things together, at least not in their posts.

We (paintball and it's players) have been and will continue to be under a certain amount of public scrutiny because we participate in a (gasp!) shooting sport where we shoot (double gasp!) people. How do you think the liberal masses of this nation, who would like to ban firearms altogether and who believe that violent video games attributed to everything from the tragedy at Columbine to bad grammer feel about us?

And don't think that we have that many friends outside of paintball either. As far as the NRA is concerned they would rather we didn't exist (or at least our markers). According to freind of mine, who is a member of the NRA, they have stated that they want nothing to do with paintball.

Now along comes Evil Paintball, a subsidiary of one of the biggest paintball companies in the world (PMI) with this low rent, "edgy" ad campaign. We, the educated intelligent paintball consumer, understand that they are trying to be funny. However is that how those who want us gone will see it? Or will they use this advertising campaign, that promotes violence and cheating, as a tool against us?

I am working, in my spare time, with a store owner to get permission to open a field. When the time comes to stand before some local political body and explain to these unknowledgable individuals that paintball is a legitmate sport that promotes teamwork, comrodary and fair play, will I face an opponent who will stand up with one of these little gems like "refs suck" or "extra padding to protect your hands in a fist fight"?

Or better yet what happens when someone challenges paintball in your hometown, which may or may not be filled with liberals with same views as I have noted above, and you have to stand before the man and defend an indefensible position.

Ogre

[John Dresser]

One of the people I know bought a "Ref's Suck" shirt, besides me, was a parent who wanted to wear it to their other kids soccer games. He thought it was universally funny. He watched his kid play in the world cup for two days and came up to ask me why us refs were even out on the field (and where I found my "Ref's Suck" shirt). He watched paintball at its highest level for two days and did not even know there was cheating in paintball.

Will the average person ever understand a "Cheaters Live Longer" shirt? If you look at it from an outsider's point of view, do they even knw what wiping is? How can it hurt paintball if everyone who even sees the shirt doesn't even know it is for paintball?

Isn't Evil competeing with Shocktech? I don't think an Aftershock player would survive Renick's fury if he found out he was working for the competition.

[Spaceman613]

Originally posted by John Dresser
Isn't Evil competeing with Shocktech? I don't think an Aftershock player would survive Renick's fury if he found out he was working for the competition.

Todd Adamson... Extreme Rage makes parts that compete with Shocktech. Omega parts

They just have to be up front I guess. And since PMI sponsors Aftershock, I would imagine that evil parts is kinda like a second Shocktech. They prolly have close relations in the R&D departments

[ogre55]

Originally posted by John Dresser
[B]One of the people I know bought a "Ref's Suck" shirt, besides me, was a parent who wanted to wear it to their other kids soccer games. He thought it was universally funny. He watched his kid play in the world cup for two days and came up to ask me why us refs were even out on the field (and where I found my "Ref's Suck" shirt). He watched paintball at its highest level for two days and did not even know there was cheating in paintball.


"cheaters live longer" isn't universal enough for you? What about the "extra padding to protect your hands in a fist fight"?

Again, I was not talking about the average man on the street and their preception, but the politically active liberal demogogue who does not want that "crazy paintball thing" in their town.

Ogre

[Spaceman613]

Show your wife/girlfriend (those who have them) the "cheaters live longer" shirt...

If you wear it, are you saying its ok? on ALL levels?

[blnk162]

Originally posted by John Dresser
One of the people I know bought a "Ref's Suck" shirt, besides me, was a parent who wanted to wear it to their other kids soccer games. He thought it was universally funny. He watched his kid play in the world cup for two days and came up to ask me why us refs were even out on the field (and where I found my "Ref's Suck" shirt). He watched paintball at its highest level for two days and did not even know there was cheating in paintball.

Will the average person ever understand a "Cheaters Live Longer" shirt? If you look at it from an outsider's point of view, do they even knw what wiping is? How can it hurt paintball if everyone who even sees the shirt doesn't even know it is for paintball?

Isn't Evil competeing with Shocktech? I don't think an Aftershock player would survive Renick's fury if he found out he was working for the competition.


Hahahaha.....

Dresser no one seems to know who you are here...kinda sad really...

[shartley]

Originally posted by blnk162



Hahahaha.....

Dresser no one seems to know who you are here...kinda sad really...
Sure we do... isn't he...

http://prisonpenpals.org/123358.html

;)

[Fred]

LOL Shartley that's great...

Its too bad that some of the best posts in this thread came so late that everyone has lost any interest...

Oh well.. we still have to do our parts.

Thanks, everyone who posted their opinions,

---Fred

[shartley]

Originally posted by Fred
LOL Shartley that's great...

Its too bad that some of the best posts in this thread came so late that everyone has lost any interest...

Oh well.. we still have to do our parts.

Thanks, everyone who posted their opinions,

---Fred
HeeHee…. Thanks.

But don’t worry….. this thread was not a loss. I think what needed to be said was said, and more have read it and may act upon it than would post openly about it. I have found this to be the case quite often on AO. ;)

It was a good discussion…. And even though it may be all but over here, I don’t think it is EVERYWHERE. :)

[John Dresser]

Wow, that's the famous automags.org hospitality.

I played with the last Pro team sponsored by airgun designs.

I played with one of the mythical 10 pre-RT automags that worked like an RT before RT's came out.

I played with one of the very first proto-type e-Mags (as did the rest of my team) and won a national tournament. We actually won with them too, which is something that hasn't been done since with these guns I might add.

Oh yeah, and I own the first RT, serial number 00001.

But I guess I'm not welcome here because I don't have 479 posts about which color warp feed would best match my lava colored Lvl 10 no-rise automag.

[FESTUS33]

I've been playing this game for 13 yr's
They're not poking fun just at tourney player's they are poking fun at anybody who play's "OUR" game, And that's never good for anyone. I play tourney ball and I play rec ball and I have never found "ANY" reason to wipe or obscure a mark that I have taken legit.,When you start doing that you degrade what "WE" do for enjoyment. There's an old comment from the racing world that apply's(When it's not any fun anymore I'll stop racing) BEEN THERE DONE THAT.
I'm starting to see the same thing in these type of AD campaign's and I do'nt like being linked to it simply because I'me easily identified as a paintball player.
You have to realize that there are a majority of unimformed
people reading these AD's in a magazine that they have never seen before. I do'nt need the bad press even if you do
Sorry to sound like I'm flaming you I'm not it's just you're post that set me off.

[shartley]

Originally posted by John Dresser
Wow, that's the famous automags.org hospitality.

I played with the last Pro team sponsored by airgun designs.

I played with one of the mythical 10 pre-RT automags that worked like an RT before RT's came out.

I played with one of the very first proto-type e-Mags (as did the rest of my team) and won a national tournament. We actually won with them too, which is something that hasn't been done since with these guns I might add.

Oh yeah, and I own the first RT, serial number 00001.

But I guess I'm not welcome here because I don't have 479 posts about which color warp feed would best match my lava colored Lvl 10 no-rise automag.
LOL Who said you were not welcomed here? I know I didn't. And I don't see as anyone was rude to you in any way.

My post was meant as humorous. Something that those who feel the t-shirts are just fine keep saying some of us need to get more sense of. :rolleyes:

Welcome to AO. Let me honestly give you my warmest most sincere welcome. Welcome.... and Welcome again.....

But with that said, I don't pull punches for Tom Kaye and he was your BOSS as a sponsored player, so I hope you don't take it as an insult if I don't pull punches with you either.

I don't judge people because of the number of their posts. And I also don't judge the validity of their posts by who "they are", but instead by what they say. Truth is the truth no matter if it comes from YOU, Tom Kaye, or a 13 year old kid... and the opposite is the same. ;) And I am sure you can appreciate that.

I am sorry if you felt slighted in any way, I am sure that was not anyone's intent…. it was certainly not mine. I also hope you do understand that we value everyone's view (even if we don't agree with it), and welcome their posts here on AO. And yes, that includes posts about what color warp feed would best match my lava colored Lvl 10 no-rise automag.....

[ogre55]

Originally posted by FESTUS33

You have to realize that there are a majority of unimformed
people reading these AD's in a magazine that they have never seen before.

Festus: the only thing I don't agree with you on is the above. I think most of the people who read PB mags, of whatever type of stripe, are players. However, that does not take away from your point. Even if one non-player decides not to play because of one of these ads, that's one too many.

John Dresser: As someone who has had a few debates with shartley under my belt, one of which got so involved we moved it to PM, I can say that I would be deeply surprised if what he said was meant to make you feel unwelcome. Come on over to AO. Grab a chair and sit a spell. Have some coffee and enjoy the show.

Ogre

[dansim]

:D

[TRIAD]

Their paint is NOT the best there is. Bought a case of yellow shell/yellow fill, THE most inconsistent paint I have EVER used. Level 10 Automag, some shot, others "jammed" the gun. IE Level 10 wouldn't punch it out. Upon inspection, I was unable to force these balls through the barrel without them breaking. I had to literally hit them with the squeegee from the tip of the barrel (they didn't make it past the detent) to get them out. I will NEVER purchase the stuff again.

[-=Squid=-]

goog god guys...lighten up a bit, nothing is going to happen from the product line! Its not going to make players cheat, or badly promote the sport. All it does (in MY oppinnion) is show that we can be like any other "extreme" sport I.E. skateboarding. It shows that paintball is here, and we dont have to be as carefull as before. Plus, the products are wonderful. Dont flame me, if you dont like MY oppinnion ignore it please.

[Fred]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
goog god guys...lighten up a bit, nothing is going to happen from the product line! Its not going to make players cheat, or badly promote the sport. All it does (in MY oppinnion) is show that we can be like any other "extreme" sport I.E. skateboarding. It shows that paintball is here, and we dont have to be as carefull as before. Plus, the products are wonderful. Dont flame me, if you dont like MY oppinnion ignore it please.

Gee, and to think I thought that running around shooting people with markers that resemble firarms in some cases wasn't "Extreme" enough...

I think we still need to be very careful about how this sport is viewed.

Examples:

Has paintball been banned in and around my town? Nope.

Can skateboarders ride around in my town? Not on your life. the cops are all over them in a heartbeat.

I'd rather not see paintball banned here.

---Fred

[wimag]

I got your back John.

Shartley i held my lip for a day but your post slighting this individual was totally uncalled for. you should apologize for being such a jerk. Yes that is right, no caps or anything.


Originally posted by John Dresser
Wow, that's the famous automags.org hospitality.

I played with the last Pro team sponsored by airgun designs.

I played with one of the mythical 10 pre-RT automags that worked like an RT before RT's came out.

I played with one of the very first proto-type e-Mags (as did the rest of my team) and won a national tournament. We actually won with them too, which is something that hasn't been done since with these guns I might add.

Oh yeah, and I own the first RT, serial number 00001.

But I guess I'm not welcome here because I don't have 479 posts about which color warp feed would best match my lava colored Lvl 10 no-rise automag.

[agdemagman69]

wow, EVIL has really brought out the evil in us

[shartley]

Originally posted by wimag
I got your back John.

Shartley i held my lip for a day but your post slighting this individual was totally uncalled for. you should apologize for being such a jerk. Yes that is right, no caps or anything.


I am glad you held your lip for a day, maybe you should have held it longer... :rolleyes:

Have a nice day.

[-=Squid=-]

Fred you definetly have a point, but still, they are shirts! You honestly think PB is going to get banned because a shirt says refs suck (or whatever)? C'mon...nothing will happen...People need to stop worrying about shirts and just go play.

[Fred]

Personally, I'd never heard of him either, but then, I don't follow Tourney ball, much less individual players.

Its cool to see experienced players hanging with the masses, hope to see more of you around here John.

---Fred

[Fred]

Squid- its a matter of public opinion, once the public sees paintball as a sport of crazy hooligans like it does Skateboarding (sorry guys, I like boarders, but you gotta accept it), it is not going to embrace it like we want it to, rather, it will be dead set against it for the image that it has.

---Fred

[-=Squid=-]

Like I said, just my oppinnion....dont mind it :)

[big_scott]

dude,
personally I think the shirts are fricken hilarious. They poke fun at yourself and the industry and get a rise out of people. As soon as I saw them I wanted one.
Some people need to stop taking everything so sieriously.

[Knives]

This is the stupidiest thing i have ever heard in my life. Some people just take things too seriously. I think the evil site is great, it adds some humour to a sport where youmake one little joke about something like wargames or cheating and everyone blows it out of proportion and whines about it on the internet. My biggest complaint about paintball isnt cheating, or it looking like wargames to th epublic, its the internet. Everyone *****es and whines on the net about stupid things. All you need to do to find a bad example of paintbal is go to any paintball forum and look around, the argueing, the whining. It makes us look like a bunch of 12 year old brats who have nothing better to do(no offence to 12 year olds) I say we all just stupi whining and being little *****es about any small thing that comes up. Go play, not whine on internet.

Challenging the curse filter is against the rules just like cursing. Watch it! cphilip

Scott Sissons
and i think EVIL is great

[shartley]

LOLROF

Let's not talk about anything then... after all, you will always get someone who will say it is not important, or less important than something else, or that it is whining, etc.

I forgot what AO was about, thanks for pointing that out. I have been a member here all this time and didn't realize AO was not for discussing things. Oh, and those who even took the time to read this thread.... what are YOU doing? Don't you have better things to do than read a stupid internet forum? GO PLAY PAINTBALL!

:rolleyes:

Folks would do well to watch their language too.... ;)

(Added: I find it sad that some people can not express their opinions without disrespecting or insulting others.)

[John Dresser]

Uh oh. Just saw the "Losers Don't Do Drugs" shirt on p8ntballer.com

Time for all of you to stop reading PGI. Where do I sign up for the boycott?

[TastePAINt88]

Im waiting for that myself
Im not buyign any Evil goods
Sure you guys can say it wont bring down paintball, but what if the NYC commisioner (incharge of the NYC ban) say Refs suck or Cheater forever or an add for there gloves "perfect for when you get into a fight...."?? then what will that person think?

[ogre55]

Congrats John-boy. That last remark just won you the ignoramous of the day award. Other's were vying for the title but you got it.

Ogre

[John Dresser]

Sweeeet. I like winning.

I'm still going to subscribe to PGI even though they have questionable tastes in t-shirts, but I'm not going to wear their clothing. I'm still going to avoid Bunker King stuff because "I kill Suckers" is over the top for me. I'd even understand it if someone would refuse to wear one of the Evil shirts and wanted one of the Evil Repirators for their Impulse.

Evil's equipment is just plain cool, so check it out. Or boycott it. Your loss.

[Crazy]

Why do you people try to find and complain about stuff that doesn't even affect you? Plain and simple, if you don't like it, dont buy it. I personally like it and find it amusing so i will buy it. My choice. I don't send letters to tippmann complaining that someone will look at their guns and think its real. Know why? because it doesn't affect me. Why don't some of you people who sit on here writing letters complaining about stuff that's not even affecting you try and find something better to do?

that is all,
Kurt

Cute picture but I am going ask you to remove it from you signature - cphilip

[Forgotten-Son]

HEY CRYBABY!

its bad enough that you still shoot a mag, but now you are going to take cheap shots at one of the largest paintball companys???

why dont you pull up your panties and go play golf..**** if everybody complained about everything that "is bad for our sport" then no playing would go on, we would all be melodramatic idiots who sit on their *** writing letters all day like you!

If this challenging of the curse filter continues there will be some banning happening - cphilip

[shartley]

Forgotten-Son
That is not only rude, but uncalled for....

I think you confuse AO with PBN... go away.

[ogre55]

F. Son: As I seem to be the last person no this thread who put up a "con" post regarding PMI's Evil line, I guess I am the one you are reffering to. As such, I feel the need to respond.

"HEY CRYBABY!"

If pointing out the potential flaws in a product line is considered "crying" than I'm guilty. FYI, my views on what is appropriate for the sport do not gel with most people. I see nothing wrong with camo, or a bit of military image. I use "marker" and "gun" interchangably and I find some of the conversions people and companies make to make markers look more like real guns, interesting and resourceful. However, what PMI/Evil did was cross a line.

The line between what is funny and what is in bad taste can be a slim one. PMI/Evil crossed that line. They should at least be made aware of it.

"its bad enough that you still shoot a mag, but now you are going to take cheap shots at one of the largest paintball companys???"

As for the first part the last statement, I won't even bother. As for the second...have you even bothered to read the thread? Up until the introduction of this latest product line, I had no problems with PMI or Evil. In fact, I thought, and still think that PMI makes some of the best paint out there.

To the best of my knowledge, I have take no "cheap shots" at PMI or Evil. If you can correct me, I welcome it.

"why dont you pull up your panties and go play golf..**** if everybody complained about everything that "is bad for our sport" then no playing would go on, we would all be melodramatic idiots who sit on their *** writing letters all day like you!"

:rolleyes: It's statement like the one above that make me seriously consider the pros of eugenics.

Ogre

You too Ogre? Now you do know better! One last warning - cphilip

[Magotman]

Weren't you the one that started the cheap personal attacks Shartley?

BTW, John D, who posted on here earlier is on the first page of the Smart Parts catalog if you want to know who he is you noobs.

[ogre55]

Thanks for having my back Sam, but the day I can't respond to a post like that is the day I hang up my keyboard.

Ogre

[shartley]

Weren't you the one that started the cheap personal attacks Shartley?

BTW, John D, who posted on here earlier is on the first page of the Smart Parts catalog if you want to know who he is you noobs.
What I posted was not a “cheap personal attack” it was a joke. And it has already been explained why I did it. I will not continue to either apologize for something that has already been taken care of, or explain it again. And it was much different than what Forgotten-Son did… but if you can’t see that, trying to explain it would be a total waste of time………

LOL And as for being a noob if you don’t know John D… LOLROF Isn’t THAT the height of arrogance (Not on your part John, but this person sticking up for you.. as if you need if?). I know folks that have been playing paintball from right after it was started but who could not point out a picture of Tom Kaye if put in a lineup. I suppose THEY are noobs too? LOL I think before you start tossing around labels and acting all snooty, that you think twice.

Knowing a “person” is not what makes someone a noob or not. Get a clue. Do you know who I am? ;) See my point?

Ogre55- My post was not just to get your back.. LOL I know you can defend yourself. Judging from the post, I figured he probably didn’t even read HALF of the posts, let alone yours. ;) My comment was about his post alone, not to who he was replying to.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Magotman
BTW, John D, who posted on here earlier is on the first page of the Smart Parts catalog if you want to know who he is you noobs. [/B]

Whatever John's status is does not make him right or wrong. In fact, whatever my status is, in paintball or otherwise, does not make me right or wrong. We are all just stating opinions here.

As for pointing out to 7000+ people who Mr. Dresser is, have you, even for a second considered that he might not want people to know who he is?

Ogre

[cphilip]

There will be some hell to pay if this challenging of the curse filter continues. Next one that cannot settle down and discuss things without cursing or attempting too curse is gonna get three days with no further warning.

SO COOL OFF OR BE GONE FOR A COOLING OFF PERIOD!!

[Scott Misfits]

Basically, what I think is that all of you mag owners are jealous that they aren't making anything for your "precious" guns. If they made some new light weight, super-duper do hickey for the mag then all would be good.

As far as the t-shirts go, they're not promoting cheating. It's a fact that cheaters live longer. Maybe 30 seconds, maybe until the end of the game. A cheater will generally stay in the game longer than you will. Why? Because he cheats. He ignores the rules. I have many hats from a hockey company with all sorts of sayings that weren't really out to promote hockey. They sayings that were on the hat were just a part of the game. How many people outside of paintball are really going to understand the JT shirt "No Wiping"? Not alot of people. How many people are really going to associate the "Cheaters live longer" shirt to paintball? Not many. I think it's just a big over-reaction on your part. If you don't like the humor, don't buy it. You're one of about 20 people in the paintball community that can't see the fun in it. They're not taking themselves seriously. Why should we?

Send all flame messages here (scottmisfits@hotmail.com). I will reply to them all, in the same fashion that I have responded here.

[Jonno06]

hey,which Smart Parts catolog..I have the 2k1,and the 1k2 one...

and I agree...by making a tshirt...paintball isnt going to get banned

some of you remind me of the PC idiots who are trying to change the name of the second LOTR movie...:rolleyes:

[shartley]

Originally posted by Scott Misfits
Basically, what I think is that all of you mag owners are jealous that they aren't making anything for your "precious" guns. If they made some new light weight, super-duper do hickey for the mag then all would be good.

As far as the t-shirts go, they're not promoting cheating. It's a fact that cheaters live longer. Maybe 30 seconds, maybe until the end of the game. A cheater will generally stay in the game longer than you will. Why? Because he cheats. He ignores the rules. I have many hats from a hockey company with all sorts of sayings that weren't really out to promote hockey. They sayings that were on the hat were just a part of the game. How many people outside of paintball are really going to understand the JT shirt "No Wiping"? Not alot of people. How many people are really going to associate the "Cheaters live longer" shirt to paintball? Not many. I think it's just a big over-reaction on your part. If you don't like the humor, don't buy it. You're one of about 20 people in the paintball community that can't see the fun in it. They're not taking themselves seriously. Why should we?

Send all flame messages here (scottmisfits@hotmail.com). I will reply to them all, in the same fashion that I have responded here.
LOL Now THAT shows a sense of humor.

Besides, bringing Mag Owners and their Markers (being a totally not related issue) into it all. And on a MAG forum... LOL

And on his first post! WooHoo!!!

I smell a Troll! :D

talk about folks taking things too seriously... what about those who want to constantly bash those who don't like the shirts..... I think THEY are taking this even more seriously than those that think the shirts are not a good thing. LOL

[Magotman]

No offense, but if john wanted to be all anonymous and stuff he wouldn't have posted using his real name. Not exactly a common name and all.

Scott Misfits has a point. If there were Evil mag parts maybe there wouldn't be all this hate in a mag forum? I don't even think they make the classic mag barrel. The shocker forum at IOG was all up in arms until they found out the Shocker Worm actually works. Now they love Evil. Only AO has this massive hate thread.

Jonno06 - he's in the most recent one. That says "Eye Popping" on the cover. Come to think of it, I find that tagline more offensive and dangerous to paintball than "Cheaters Live Longer."

[RamboPreacher]

Originally posted by Magotman
[clip] Only AO has this massive hate thread.[clip]uhmmm - nope. This kind of thread is on MANY forums that I know of, and none are thrilled with the site. as for me, if they did have evil mag parts, I still wouldn't buy them.

Tongue in cheek is all fine and good, but when it is so much on the "edge" that "most" people can't tell the difference unless it it specified that it was supposed to be a joke, or written in sarcasm or whatever - it is no longer tongue in cheek. (my opinion)

[aaron_mag]

This is not a "hate" thread. How can it be a hate thread when both sides of the issue are being supported? That fact makes it a discussion thread.

I'm middle of the road. I don't like their advertising campaign but if I tried a product and liked it and liked the price I'd probably buy it. I suppose Shartley and Ogre would say I'm the worst kind of consumer. A guy who is turned off by their marketing, finds it vaguely offensive, but is so indifferent that he buys the product if he wants it anyway.

[ogre55]

aaron_mag: Can't speak for Shartley, but I have nothing against anyone who buys anything. To buy or not to Evil or PMI products, paintball gear in general, or crack, for that matter, is personal choice. I make a personal choice not to buy their products and I let them know why. Maybe if enough people do the same thing, something will change.

Because I have a forum to voice my views (AO) I hope to maybe influence a few more like minded people. But I will not fault anyone for choosing not to listen.

As for this being a "hate" thread, I bet if you count how many have chimed in that they like, or are ambivilent to Evil's campaign, to those that have voiced concerns, you will find the ratio to be pretty even.

Ogre

[shartley]

Originally posted by ogre55
aaron_mag: Can't speak for Shartley, but I have nothing against anyone who buys anything. To buy or not to Evil or PMI products, paintball gear in general, or crack, for that matter, is personal choice. I make a personal choice not to buy their products and I let them know why. Maybe if enough people do the same thing, something will change.

Because I have a forum to voice my views (AO) I hope to maybe influence a few more like minded people. But I will not fault anyone for choosing not to listen.

As for this being a "hate" thread, I bet if you count how many have chimed in that they like, or are ambivilent to Evil's campaign, to those that have voiced concerns, you will find the ratio to be pretty even.

Ogre
I agree with this.... and will add this to it...

HATE is a funny thing some times. Seems to me that when reading this thread, those who found fault with Evil's marketing tactics remained fairly respectful of PMI and those who "liked" it, but simply state their opinions for the most part... however the real negative vibes seemed to be coming from what I will call the "Evil Supporters", where they constantly put demeaning labels on folks, call them names, insult them personally for their views, etc.

Yeah… one MIGHT get the impression this is a Hate Thread… but it seems that concern is coming from one side while “hate” is coming from the other…. Hey, isn’t Hate EVIL? ;) Now I get it!

[Crazy]

John Dresser,

Saw you guys play at the ICC state, was quite ammusing, I really like the evil jerseys you guys had, just wondering where i could pick one of those up?

Thanks,
Kurt

[Fred]

...too bad it has digressed a little bit.

As the thread starter, I'd like to clarify that it was NOT started as a hate thread, merely a discussion about what I felt was a relevant issue to the Paintball society. I've been labeled a crybaby, noob, and other things as a result.

As for being a mag shooter... I'm actually not one, but I do like them, and have been known to borrow Wyn's when I need to lay down some high ROF smack that my pumps just aren't capable of. but that is not the issue at hand, and I'm gonna leave it at that.

As for who this John guy is, and for being a noob since I don't know who he is, or really care all that much... its not the issue. I'm not a noob, and I don't play tournies, got a problem with that?

As for being a loser who writes letters to paintball companies... these were the first two I have ever written, to ANY company, declaring my personal disgust with their conduct.

For those who have attacked those of us who don't care too much for the Evil product line saying that its a non-issue, I'd ask you to kindly take your heads out from between your legs and look at some other forums on the net. Every forum that I frequent has addressed this issue, and this is the only one where fellow members have attacked me personally for standing up for something I believe in, thanks AO, you're setting such a fine example of why this isn't PBNation...

I'd like to see some more people chime in on this still.

---Fred

[Magotman]

I'd like to see some more people chime in on this still.


I don't really think you want more people to chime in. I saw the thread on pbnation and all it does is attack you. The one here is pretty pale by comparison. What other forums were you not attcked is what I'd rather know?

Were you the one that attacked Bill Mills in the pump player forum? I didn't even know what evil was until I read that one. Now I like them quite a bit. Are you sure you're not just free advertising?

Shartley - I haven't seen much concern come from your side. I have seen you guys attacking people because they didn't agree with you. Maybe you can only see one side of the hate because you can only see one side of any issue.

[Fred]

forums I have seen this addressed on:

AO
PHOG
PPIG
Tinker's Guild
CPPA
POG
Paintball Marshals

I don't frequent any others, and if there is a thread on PBNation with my letters in it, please link me, since I don't waste much time over there except when humorous situations arise and people here point them out to me.

I like Bill Mills, havn't met him, but I've talked with him a bit online. I don't recall "attacking" him anywhere.

---Fred

[shartley]

Originally posted by Magotman
Shartley - I haven't seen much concern come from your side. I have seen you guys attacking people because they didn't agree with you. Maybe you can only see one side of the hate because you can only see one side of any issue.
What?

Did you just make a run-on paragraph but meant two different groups? Because if you actually mean that MYSELF and others who don't think the shirts are a good thing are the ones who attacked folks because they didn't agree with us... I think you have been reading a different thread. I saw one side trying to make rational arguments while those FOR the shirts seemed to want to toss personal insults at us…. but haven’t I already stated all this? LOL

The reason I have not posted much concern is that I already posted my opinion on the matter. I don’t think the shirts are a good thing for paintball. I don’t think they will cause paintball to collapse though. HOWEVER, it is the accumulative affect of these types of things, with the types of things seen as being commonplace (look at WC and other events) that makes it harder for paintball to advance as a sport, and gives those who are looking for ammunition against the sports the thing which they are looking for.

Do I think this is the worse issue facing paintball today? Not by a long shot. But that does not mean that it should not be discussed. However, it appears that some folks think that just because someone talks about something, they think it is the most important thing in the world. That is simply not the case. There is a difference between stopping everything in life and going on a crusade, and having a simple discussion on an online forum and sending a letter to a company.

If those of us who think the shirts are a bad thing are in such a minority, and we are simply over reacting to something, why even bother to respond to this thread in the first place? LOL

As for me seeing only one side of any issue....being a new member, I can assure you that this is far from the case. Most here on AO know that although I am quite opinionated, I am FAR from being closed minded or only willing to (or able to) see things from one side. Being opinionated or standing up for what you believe, or think, is NOT being closed minded. I think too many people don’t quite understand what open/closed minded really means… and according to their definitions noone would be able to make a single decision in life. We would not be able to dress ourselves because to decide on one set of clothes would mean that we are being “close minded” about all the other clothes we own. ;)

Here is a little bit of a post I made in another thread (in friendly corner) and I think it explains it well:

My post was meant to point out that just because people may have their own views, it does not mean they are not "open minded". I am about the most open minded person I know. That means that I am willing to discuss, be exposed to, and contemplate opinions or actions that are not my own. Being open minded does not however, mean that someone has to agree with everything, or has to change their own point of view.... only that they are willing to accept that others may not be of the same opinion and respect them in spite of it. It is also not that we will automatically change our minds, but that we are open to arguments contrary to our own.... if we in the end do NOT change our minds, it is not that we were "close minded", but that we looked at all sides and chose our own stance and position.

I really get aggravated when folks say I am closed minded just because I don't agree with them. Anyone who has been on AO for any length of time knows that I often play the Devil’s Advocate, this involves looking at things from ALL angles and sides. Just because folks don't agree on an issue does not mean in itself that either side had to be less open minded than the other, they just came to different conclusions and opinions.

I hope this clears things up for you a bit.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by shartley
and according to their definitions noone would be able to make a single decision in life. We would not be able to dress ourselves because to decide on one set of clothes would mean that we are being “close minded” about all the other clothes we own. ;)


Ha!!!! This is why I am addicted to AO. On what other paintball board would a discussion eventually lead to a debate on the nature of closed/open minded and how it related to getting dressed in the morning!:)

I'll probably contemplate this next time I get dressed until my wife kicks me and tells me I'm going to be late for work!:D

[Crazy]

Originally posted by Magotman


I don't really think you want more people to chime in. I saw the thread on pbnation and all it does is attack you. The one here is pretty pale by comparison.

It is pale because if anyone actually speaks their mind, it would be deleted in a heartbeat.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Crazy
It is pale because if anyone actually speaks their mind, it would be deleted in a heartbeat.

Kind of rude and uncalled for. Like I said I really don't have to much of a problem with the Evil line. They want to sell their goods that is fine with me. I'll buy the stuff I like and I won't buy the stuff I don't like.

But why does the fact that Fred does not like the Evil brand so offensive to you that you would "speak your mind to a point that it would be deleted in a heartbeat". Seems to me you are the one advocating the opinion of leaving something alone that doesn't effect you.

[Crazy]

Did i ever say that I would say something like that? No. I mearly stating why it was so pale compared to other non-G rated forums on the internet.

[aaron_mag]

My mistake. I misunderstood....:rolleyes: