Need input: Trouble shooting prototype pb marker

[Thorpydo]

Hey,
Finished up the first prototype today. Its got a few problems, nothing we can't fix. The reason I'm posting: We've got a O-rings on the bolt. When the marker cycles, the O-ring on the bolt that passes over the feed tube is forced up and is pinched. The O-rings hold approx 250psi. The bore in the gun is .700, the bolt .692. Its a real nice fit, same with the o-rings. The O-ring is required to be there, we can't remove it.

Anyone have any advice to stop the o-ring being pinched?

[Thorpydo]

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[Thorpydo]

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[Thorpydo]

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[Thorpydo]

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[Thorpydo]

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[ShinyGuy]

Sweeping an o-ring across the feed port with that much pressure behind it just isn't going to work. Without know what that o-ring is doing exactly I can't offer an exact solution. I had a similar problem on one of my designs and I solved it by setting the oring at an angle such that the top of the o-ring never crossed the feed port while the bottom was well forward of the port. The o-ring was perfectly happy working at an angle but the slot geometry was a real pain (the groove had to be narrower and shallower towards the top and bottom when the o-ring was streatched tighter). Note that you'll also need a turning center or screw machine that can cut the tilted groove or you'll need to do it on a 4-axis mill. Hope this helps. I've since elliminated the need for that o-ring to come past the feed tube in my design and I much prefer that, but the tilted o-ring worked fine.

[ShinyGuy]

And hey, where are your safety glasses at that lathe?

[Thorpydo]

Yeah, That's what I figure is the problem... We have a solution. Its fairly simple, it just lengthens the bolt an inch or so. Right now the bolt measures only 1.7 inches =)

Saftey glasses... I've got some, they are just so dirty you cant see through them. Where can I get some? local hardwhere store? How much?

Also, would you mind explaining your other solution? If you can't I'm perfectly cool with that, I'm the same way about my stuff.

[vantrepes]

I think this is what he is talking about:
http://www.moodypaintball.com/o-ring.jpg .
The grey area is the bolt, the black line is the o-ring, and the purple makes the feed tube. This would seal the back area of the bolt from the barrel, but it wouldn't stop air from going up the feed port, so it may not be what you need.
You can try a slightly deeper slot, with a higher durometer(sp? beats me) o-ring. That would help with the distortion, and help keep the seal where you wanted it. It doesn't take much exposed o-ring to get a seal. You could also try a thicker o-ring with a smaller ID so it is stretched tighter on the bolt, that might help keep it in place also.

[Thordic]

Try using a harder oring. If you are using something like a neoprene o-ring thats really soft, it'll be blown around by the pressure more.

[athomas]

Does the o-ring have to be at that exact location? Can it be moved further back on the bolt so that it never crosses the feed tube. Obviously if it crosses the feed tube, it isn't used for holding air. If it is used for sealing the barrel against blow back, then make your groove a little deeper so there is less pressure on the o-ring as it passes through the feed opening.

If it is used to prevent blowback then I don't think it is needed. As a ball is fired, most of the air is used to push the ball down the barrel. Very little escapes around the bolt and up the feed tube as long as the bolt is forward. Most blowback in guns is caused by timing issues where the bolt returns before the ball exits the barrel.

[toymyster]

Like Athomas said, try moving the O-ring back a bit, which might mean relocating your gas ports, and/or elongating your bolt!!!

[Thorpydo]

Thats the solution Toy ;)

The design that were going to use now is what we came up with in the first place. But I insisted on going this other route... And look where we end up. Oh well, learned a bit.

Also I'm gonna try putting a O-ring like... Half the size of this one so it really stretches. Anyone got think it will work?

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

[SLICEnDICE]

So, how does the thing work? Fill us all in on the creation.

[Thorpydo]

Sorry, as much as I would like to, I can't. We've been designing/ building this thing for about a year and would hate for all that work to go down the drain!

[AGD]

welcome to hastles in marker design 101! The only chance you have of making that work long enough is to use an undersize oring, streach it tight into the groove and then bring up the bottom of the oring groove in the bolt until it just seals.

AGD

[Ostwar]

What design recommendations are you using for your o-ring grooves? You will need to use the dynamic (not static) design info. Your problem is not new, most closed bolt markers have bolts with o-ring that run over the feed tube regularily. However if you have 250 psi that your o-ring is containing and that pressure barrier is broken when your bolt passes over your feed tube you'll have a different problem. The pressure behind your o-ring will attempt to exit out of the feed tube and will force the o-ring out of it's groove resulting in the pinching. I am guessing that this is what is happening. Let me know if I am way off.

Shaun

[Thorpydo]

We're going to move the o-ring back. Means we got to move all the ports, and the position of the ram... Too many holes. Gonna make a new body. Hopefully it will be done this weekend, in which case I will take pictures and post them. Oh, AGD, nothing goes the way you think it will does it..? Can get frusterating at times.

Thanks for all the input and suggestions. This is why I have almost completely stopped browsing on pbn. I solely post on here and tinkers guild. Lotta intelegent people.

[Thorpydo]

Great news. Tonight we completed the new body. We also tested the gun out. It's still connected to my timmy gripframe internals so we couldn't get the dwell up past 16ms. This caused the bolt to only travel about 3/4s of the way intended, which isn't great, but gotta look at the good news! It didn't leak, the O-ring didn't get pinched! Tommorow we will have a new grip frame on there running a morlock circuit board and a new skinner/parker solenoid as well.

The reason for such a high dwell is that our ram is BIG. It's 9/16 to be exact. I think cocker rams are normally 3/8?

Tommorow we will hopefully have pictures up and a functioning prototype!

[Thorpydo]

Tonight we hooked the TMCC up to your new grip frame. It's kinda ghettor rigged, as you can see as the gripframe is attached to the body by a rubberband on the backend. The frontside is attached with a screw.
Anyways, tommorow I will make and install a vertical tube so that we can put a hopper on and actually shoot at a decent speed (We were hand loading the balls).
There are, however, two problems we have encountered already. The first is that the bolt sometimes sticks in the forward position when ripping on it. The bolt was installed a little too far forward (which we need to fix) and the second O-ring on the bolt could have been crossing over the vert tube, causeing the problem we encountered previously (scroll up).
The second problem can occur in other guns as well and was wondering what there problem and solution has been. The gun's first shot is noticible low. This makes NO sense to me. Even when dry firing... First shot is low, then you start getting full shots.
Any and all advise is appreaciated!!! Thank you for all of your help.

Oh BTW, we gotta get the detents on there too. We also have the hardwhare for an eye, we just have to take the time to drill the hole and get the soldering iron out.

[Thorpydo]

I'll try to get some better pictures up tommorow!

[warpedmephisto]

Lookin good :)

[Crimson_Turkey]

My advice is to mill it. I hope you are planning on that.;)

[Thorpydo]

Yeah, this is a prototype =) If were thinking about going anyfurther and get a machine shop to make us some bodies, then that is one thing we will have them do!

[Crimson_Turkey]

I too am going to build a gun soon. Other than the o-ring problem listed above are there any things that you would say I should avoid doing. Anything that really helped you?

[Thorpydo]

I would say know what your doing before you get into anything expensive. I assumed it would be fairly easy to make everything on the gun with a drill press and a lathe (except the gripframe). Well before I knew it I was spending hundreds of dollars on taps... drill bits... reamers... Everything! Also don't expect it to work the first time and make sure to think everything through in the designing stage. We spent at leat 8 months on and off designing it.

[314159]

Originally posted by Thorpydo
The gun's first shot is noticible low. This makes NO sense to me. Even when dry firing... First shot is low, then you start getting full shots.

stolen from http://www.impulseownersgroup.com/guides/firstshot.html

"Let it sit for the period of time that you know usually causes a low first shot. For some that may be a minute, for others it may be 5. Now you can switch the gun on and off if you want, but it is better to leave it gassed, obvioulsy. Now, after that period, push on the back of the bolt, or the bolt pin, just far enough that it breaks any contact with the ram and bolt in the rear position, and then let it spring back into the rear, cocked, position. You don't want to push it all the way forward, or you will push a ball into the barrel, and another will fall in behind it when you let it go. Not Good! What you are doing here is breaking the "stiction" of the bolt, hammer, and ram system, and "simulated" a fired shot in those components. If you now fire the gun, straight after pushing the bolt, you will find one of two things. Either the next shot will be at full velocity, or not. If not, it will be lower than the lowest shot in the string before you let the gun sit. If you find that that shot was full velocity, it means you have a sticky bolt, hammer or ram. Clean them all and re-lube, and I always prefere Airlube to Dow33, but that's just me (less sticky).

However, if that shot is still low, like every one of my team guns was, then it is stickyness in the solenoid that is causing the low shot. After further testing it was definately the solenoid that was causing the first shot low problem in every gun we tried. I took out the solenoid, cleaned the spool of ALL grease, cleaned the pilot ports in the middle section of the solenoid with strands of wire and wiped clean the plunger and spring. I then LIGHTLY greased the spool with Dow33 and re-assembled the solenoid and gun. After doing this to every gun, the problem was completely irradicated. We left all the guns for up to an hour and saw not even 5 foot drop in velocity for the first shot. For your interest we have a complete mix of stainless, delrin, titanium and aluminium hammers, bolts and shafts, and a mixture of LPR set-up guns and regular run Impulses. The problem and the cure was universal. No set-up seemed any more susceptable than any other."

i am just curieous what hardware you are using for the eye?

[Dubstar112]

lookin good. Looks to be low profile, as in one tube above the grip frame.

One question though you dont have to answer if its too specific: Is this an improvement on a current operation, or is it totally new, never seen before?

[Thorpydo]

I *believe* it's totally new. I know how most if not all the currect electronic guns work, but you never know. There could be a gun that is similar that was made way back when.

It's gonna be tricky to test that out as there is not really a way to remove the bolt easily or even move it forward like it says to do.

The eye hardware came with the morlock board we ordered. We still need to mount it though.

This we know the cause of the bolt stick that where having, which is a start. Now to fix it! :)

[flanders]

hmm looks good, well relativly, should be interesting

[Mossman]

Looks great guys! Keep it comin!

It seems you've already decided against fixing the old o-ring problem, but I know that my impy has small stretchy o-rings in pretty big channels that go past the feed tube on every shot, and i've never had o-ring breaking/pinching problems.

GOOD LUCK AND KEEP US UPDATED!

[Thorpydo]

Mossman, You impy bolt O-rings are also far less crucial to the design and only have pressure on them as the balls are in the barrel. Unfortunatly... Otherwise I would take a look at there bolts.

[Dubstar112]

I think i know how the bolt works. Im taking a guess, that the bolt is a ram and thats why the orings are crucial.

If that is the case, does the bolt rotate freely? or does it have a port similar to a style of an angel bolt where the inlet goes all the way around the bolt? I think this would eliminate some of the stiction problems if the bolt could rotate freely.

[Thorpydo]

Hmm, I dont see why it would eliminate the stiction, I guess it could be.

[Thorpydo]

Hey dudes!

We got the gun up and running. We will be at Modesto in CA playing tommorow(Sunday). Haven't shot paint through it yet, but how its try fireing looks promising.

Binding problem is fixed.
First shot low is not noticably low like it was. But over the chrono, it still good be.

I may be able to get a video of it shooting as my dad has a digital video camera

[Crimson_Turkey]

I can't wait to see it. If there is ever a big game or tourney in modesto I'll be there. Id like to talk gun engineering sometime with you. my aim is SZMatheson.

[AssassN]

:eek: :eek: :eek: wow.. ur my hero!

[Thorpydo]

lol, Thanks dude. Also Richys been working on it too. He deserves as much credit, if not more than I do!

You guys wanted an update...

We've got a smaller ram in there now. It's working much better. No more bolt stick. Also able to turn down dwell and increase ROF.

There is still a LOT of shootdown... Its at the point where the first shots roll out of the barrel, Real bad! The problem lies in the O-ring grooves. We've tried a whole bunch of dimensions for the O-ring grooves. The ones advised by O-ring manufators don't seem to work very well. I was gonna make a bolt that I THINK will solve the problem tonight, BUT my lathe isnt workin quite right, not sure of the problem. The work has a taper to it, the side closest to the chuck is about .006 smaller than the tailstock side... Any ideas? Anyway, I got a way around it that I'll try tommorow. It will just make more work for me though.

Anyways, sorry about rambling about nothing.

[AssassN]

will these markers ever be for sale?

If so get some cool milling

[Thorpydo]

We'd like to get them on the market. I dunno if were dreaming or not though. If so, for sure, milling!

[Crimson_Turkey]

Id want an un milled version. It looks so ghetto.;)

[bryan]

i agree, its so mgeiver in nature

[Thorpydo]

Just an update...

Just an update...

I tried putting some of those whitish clear O-rings. It was MUCH easier to slide the bolt back and forth. Higher durometer must help :). I've got some sample O-rings in the mail that should work even better.

[bryan]

keep those updates coming! Its really nice to see a new gun in development

[Thorpydo]

Ok, will do.

Wasn't sure if people were still interested or cared... But I guess they do :)

[Dslexik]

I'm surprised with so many paintball products on the market there isn't something like a do it yourself, make a paintball gun kit. You know a lot of people would be interested in this. Have you guys made any CAD drawings. I know that can take a long time. I've tried working on a couple, getting a lot of ideas from the CAD drawings of the slug body. Nothings finished and would rather get my hands on some real tools to do this, much more fun. Good luck, don't give up. If you do sell any, I'll take the ghetto block.

[AssassN]

i have a home made paintball gun... consists of a stick and rubber band w00t w00t

[Thorpydo]

Hey

Tried my hand at the dremel for the first time today. Did some carving in some old scrap tmcc bodies we had. Didn't turn out too bad, definatly some room for improvment though.

[Thorpydo]

Pics are a bit bad.. I know, but it IS a closeup.

[Mossman]

hehe, if you did deeper "cracks and had little cracks covering the whole surface it'd look.....different.

Anyhow, good luck getting the finished product off the mill, i can't wait to see how this thing works!

[Crimson_Turkey]

I like the design on the gun. Just needs to be done all over and refined a bit. Looking good.

[Thorpydo]

If I had the patience to sand it some more, it would be lil more shiny, But, I guess I dont...

Again, done with a dremel

The pictures actually make it look pretty good. There are a few imperfections that the picture doesnt bring out.

Anyway... As far as progress... Still waiting for these damned O-rings to come in the mail. Almost going on two weeks for them to ship. Also there only half a state away.

I'm also thinking about makeing a Sniper 2 (I know, I'm getting a little off topic here). When I say make, I mean that I would buy a body and grip frame, make just about everything else. Would be fun and useful afterwards, but I dont want to get sidetracked with that, and give up on the TMCC. Why I havn't started already.

[Thorpydo]

Also, If could actually use this body for anything, I would have smoothed out the end. Again, thats me being lazy.

[Thorpydo]

lol, angle of that last pic makes you look twice doesn't it, did for me anyway, and Im the one that took it.

Last one.

[Thorpydo]

This ones for fun!

Its a paper model that richy made way back when, before we started actually building the gun. We could shave alot off the prototype now, and when were done, we could get it down to about that size, maybe a little bit bigger.

Oh, and sorry for biting off the flame KAPP milling:) Couldn't resist!

Any ideas for dremel carving welcome! heh

[Crimson_Turkey]

I would like to see you make the body a bit less boxular (I'm like the president) and if you want to try my idea. I was wondering how lighning would look. Then once you can ano/poweder it with a white to black through blue fade having the white on the ridges of the lighning. I'm planning on doing that with a sluggo. (I need a mag first) I like the new flame job. Just round the body a bit (aka. lot) and it would looks sweet.

[Thorpydo]

Yeah, would take a long time to remove all that metal... maybe do that to a body that we've already got made and cut to shape; Have them put a big radius on those sides.

[richy_x]

woohoo im registeres-- yeah im that other guy thats working on this thing- alright! im so friggin pissed that those POS orings havent come yet, but what are you gonna do, we are getting em for free- like one of those sampler chocolate packs : ). oh well, testing is pretty much on hold untill we get those- thats why adam is fooling around with milling so much these days...
for now full scale production seems kinda far in the future. but if you want one we'll tell you when they work and you can order one from us. im not sure what the ano options are going to be on it but ill keep you posted. as soon as we get a certain program (solid works.. anyone have it?), we can make the drawings cnc compatable and we'll be able to pump out like 10 at a time (for $$ reasons). so thats the scoop- ill be around- my aim handle is
cheezmonkyifier
and surprise surprise my email is
cheezmonkyifier@aol.com
later---
richy_x

[Vegeta]

I can make technical drawings in AutoCad if you guys need them. I am pretty educated in drafting and modeling pre-production presentations also.

[richy_x]

thanks for the offer but we are trying to keep the people worlking to a minimum and i need to learn how to do this anyway-- i really do appriciate your guys' support though. what would be the most helpful would be someone that could get me solidworks, but i might be able to pick that up at my stepdads work (he invents stuff- he invented the original laser tag- how sick is that!?) anyway-

we called some more oring places that are going to send us helluv orings and hopefully the harder ones will get the job done- but untill we get those we cant do much- if you guys have any other cool mill job ideas feel free to post- we are open to any input on your guys' part- i mean someday all you guys will be shooting this gun... right? : ). actually any ideas in general you guys have that you think would be a cool addition to the gun please share- the more people you have thinking together the more good ideas come out of it--- here ya go i have an idea--

have you ever popped out of a bunker and had no ball in the chamber? it just putts a bit when you shoot- and youre like dammat? its happened to me- even on the timmy and its ever-so-poppular eyes. i think it would be cool to have a light (LED) on the feed tube, faceing you, that glows if no ball is present- then you know not to waste your time. tell me if thats good- and remember any ideas of that sort would be appriciated- or even problems there might be solutions to.

ill cya guys around
-richy_x

[richy_x]

btw do you guys want updated pics?

[madgoat33]

of course;)

[ras92833]

hey thorpydo i havent talked to you for a while get on aim sometime and talk to me -- if you remember who i am dont think ive talk to you in here b4

[Thorpydo]

Course I remeber you dude;)

I'll try to get some new pics up later tonight; busy with homework and other obligations so don't EXPECT them! The gun doesn't look too different... Just has a vert tube and a hopper. Maybe I'll also put some bolts up.

[Thorpydo]

Here they are...Again, they don't look too different.

[Thorpydo]

.

[Thorpydo]

They always get in the way!

[Thorpydo]

.
Look alike?

[Thorpydo]

That last one... I drew that picture last year in 'engineering drawing'. It was before we even started building the marker in the garage. Man that class was fun!

This one... Richy made this before we started building the marker in the garage. It's a paper life-size version of what it was suppose to be. It would look exactly like that if we had the means to do it.

Anything else that can make yah guys happy? Besides a final product?:D

[AssassN]

neat-o

[Thorpydo]

WHOO HOOO!

Look what Santa Brought me! Actually O-rings West. Many thanks for the sample.

[Thorpydo]

... O-rings help but there still first shot low. Hopefully trying the other O-rings from the other company will help.

Any other ideas for the cause of the first shot low problem? PLEASE ANY SUGGESTIONS

We broke a barb on the ram. We got the remains of the barb out, but still need a new one.

We are going sking this weekend and won't be able to post.

[Crimson_Turkey]

ok... I am now officially drooling. Once I get some cash I want the second one!

[cracker344]

hey i was bored and was screwin around with my cad program
(i use pro/desktop)

[Vegeta]

Cracker344-

that looks cool, but it could never be put on a gun... wanna know why?

those Splines are much too sharp. The mill tooling could not make those sharp of corners. Yes, they make tools that small but it would either be too fragile for milling that type of part or too expensive. Plus it would take much time switching out tools to do all thsoe corners. I forget the actual number but Manike mentioned once what is about the smallest radius a corner can be- sharp corners like htat cannot be done effectively.

But neat design nevertheless.

[cracker344]

yea i kno, its just since i was screwin around i didn't bother to round the edges and get to look like an actual mill design

[richy_x]

yeah dude thats pretty cool. i like the sorta gothic theme youre going with. would definately make a bad-*** gun if it was possible. i really appriciate you doing that. adam and i are looking for anything right now and have very open minds about milling ideas because so far we havent been able to come up with much. i might take some pics of some drawings ive been doing in english calss instead of work =). anyway, thanks again--
also we might think there is a chance that air is in the wrong place... although unlikely.. that is causing the first shot low. fun stuff. ill keep you posted.
rich

[richy_x]

we broke a barb and adam is too wussy to stand up against the guys at delta. our testing is on hault. also the hole didnt work i dont think... fun stuff-- we got more orings and guess what! they come 2 to a pack- guess how many we need on our bolt 4! so we are short on these new orings. a bit annoying. i bought christmas gifts and ive got money left over maybe a new reg is in line for the tmcc... we'll see. if you guys have anything to say feel free-- im starting to get the feeling im talking to no one...

richy_x

[Sinnet]

i bet there's lots of folks like me just lurking, checking back here every couple of days...

i'm loving it so far! keep up the good work! bummer about the o-rings/barb though.

[Thorpydo]

Too wussy? Pfff

They've been nice enough to give us the ram... I don't blame them for not giving us a barb. They don't have any spare and would have to take them off another ram they have in the back.

Called WGP, they're sending a couple barbs out; will be here Thursday.

Got some new carbide tipped bits for my lathe! :D

Oh, and btw, The O-rings they shipped us, they gave us two, each different kinds. We need four of the same KIND, so that really doesn't work for us at all... But at least they were nice enough to send out anything, they are for free.

We're thinking about taking the grip frame off and having long hoses to attach the two and then dunk the gun underwater. We could see if there are any small leaks. Maybe airs getting to some place that it shouldn't? Any reason that would be a bad idea? Any other suggestions?

Thanks

[richy_x]

you heard me adam you wuss...=)

im pretty sure dunking it wont do anything-- should be water tight... and even if there is a leak there will be air pressure behind it and no water will get in there.... but then again the water might work its way to the back of the bolt... and people talk about getting teflon in their air systems... any feedback would be nice.
richy_x

[Rust]

Dunk it. i work as a smith and we dunk every one of our guns before we ship them, air leaks can cause all kinds of wierd problems. might actaully have something to do with your vel. problems. from what little you've described so far i assume you have some sort of air chamber being held closed by your bolt, if thats a sealed chamber at rest, and its leaking out, it would cause the first shot to be low, and the more rapid fire follow up shots would be much closer to full pressure.
as for the sharp points on milling, EDM baby. pricey, but wire feed's the shiznik, or just invert your program, have those sharp curves be positive relief rather than negative, cut it all with a ball endmill so it flows from the raised lines into the flats on the body, would give a similar look (nice by the way) and would be comparativly easy to machine.

[Thorpydo]

Dunked it... Didnt have the ram attached.

Their was a leak. We still have to figure out which O-ring it is. Bubbles approx 1/4 diameter, coming out 1 to 2 per second.

Also, afterwards, took off my stabilizer and there was a drop of water inside there. Really hope that happened while I was taking the reg off. IF water did get in the air source, HOW! Theres 200 psi acting the other way!

So I guess thats good and bad news. I'll try to find out which the o-ring it is tonight or tommorow, and how to fix it.

[Thorpydo]

Oh, also:

Turned down part of the bolt. Will stop any suctioning, IF there is any.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[Vegeta]

I don't know dimensions or anything technical about it yet but I just drew up a rough body and took a shot at it in Autocad. I added some shading to give a bit of 3d prespective (ot's really just 2d). took about three minutes...

[sniper1rfa]

the minimum radius of tooling before things start getting expensiver (wouldnt things be simple if you could actually say that?) is about 1/32".

[Rust]

had another thought you may want to look into. i started work on a prototype myself a few years back that had a rambolt of sorts, it was a tube design so it was a little easyier to do this on, but i cut a ring into the reciever to hold the oring rather than into the bolt. a little harder to machine and or change out, but it doesn't ride over the feed opening. i think your design is quite a bit different than the one i was working on as i think you said you had 250psi or there abouts on the bolt. but if im right that you need a seal in that section between you feed neck and some sort of pressurized chamer its something to look into if you have the tooling to do it with.

[chesterrc]

since you seem to be a hands on type of guy, and have a lathe, have you thought about expirimenting on making your own bolt out of delrin? You can order it in rods of almost any width (you would have to trim it down to size, of course) and i think it was something like 1.89 a foot.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8721&highlight=delrin+bolt

that guy did one but for a autococker.

[Thorpydo]

We made a bolt out of ertalyte. It's very similar to delrin. We still have to put O-rings on it, so it doesn't offer much advantage. No luck btw.

We're still waiting for a barb from WGP

I just got a new idea today. We working with a .700 bore. If we could find a ram with that bore, then I could copy the demensions of it and type of O-rings or U-cups or whatever they are using. The ram should be able to operate at at least 300psi, which would work for our application.
Only problems I see is that we have ports to travel over, maybe causing wear on the seals? (I don't know how good U-cups are at traveling over ports)

Only other problem I see is that the O-rings in our current setup arnt the problem. It's in the bolt binding from the pressure, in which case we would see that as soon as we test it, after we have this barb...

Some of this might not make sense without taking a look at the design, I'm sorry.

We havn't given up yet!

[ShinyGuy]

Robb Jack makes great tiny endmills. I Swear by them.
I've run .040 endmills through 6061 with a .25 depth of cut without those
things breaking (12000rpm, 25ipm). I've milled quite a few things with
those that customers thought I'd have to EDM.

[Thorpydo]

Uhm, I'm guessing posted in wrong place?

If not, I dont see the connection, enlighten me!:)

[poopthatkilledelvis]

he's refering to the cad design cracker344 posted and the series of posts after regarding the milling of intricate shapes.

[Thorpydo]

AHH yes, thank you. Makes a whole lot more sense now.heh

[Thorpydo]

New proposed problem from me262 at Fear Factory paintball!

Really sounds like it could be the problem! Thank you dude!

Also hes offered to anno and mill it... For the fun of it!
http://www.fearfactorypb.com/

Anyway, Notice the arrows at the bottom, the ones facing up. 200-300 psi upwards, no wonder its got some friction!

[richy_x]

dude ive been telling you this problem forever.... sometimes i wonder about you adam.... are you just making a new bolt?

[Thorpydo]

lol...

Then why havn't you come up a solution, it's quite simple isn't it? Sometimes I wonder about YOU:D

But this isn't place richy.

[AssassN]

got a name for it yet??? i haven't read whole post so i mighta missed it.. and the part i read i read a long time ago.

PS your still my hero

[Thorpydo]

lolol

TMCC is what we've been calling it. Don't know if that name will stick.

[AssassN]

no.... but The AssassN would!!1

[bowser************]

ya i definitely think AssassN would be good

hey, looks good guys, nice work!!

[kiolia]

if your bolt is getting tapered (different on one end from the other in diameter)--maybe you fixed this already--but that's from the runout--that is your chuck has a slight eccentricity--if you're using a three-jaw. with a 4-jaw you can correct the runout yourself, but it takes some effort--if I were you I'd try to get my hands on one.

[poopthatkilledelvis]

if you're using a tailstock that isn't centered, it would also cause the workpiece to come out with different diameters.

[Thorpydo]

Hey dudes,

Great news, Great news, and somewhat dissapointing news:

We got the tailstock of my lathe adjusted properly now:D. The tapering is almost non existant. We get a taper of .0005 occasionally.

We made a new bolt with new O-ring grooves. We used a tighter clearance between the bolt and hole. 014 buna o-rings along with some well fitting grooves. It is very easy to move the bolt back and forth.

Oh, the other BIG reason they worked is because we used dow 55 on the bolt as opposed to tri-flow.(The bolt is ertalyte, similar to delrin) Makes sense now, but I suppose the tri-flow isn't o-ring lubricant just for plastics.

Now for the dissapointing news... We thought that the 1st shot low problem was from the friction of the bolt. The 1st shot low problem is very random now. At first we had the problem. After about 300 shots, it was not noticable by listening to the sound. This morning, it was not noticable, then once I take it over to Richie's house to fire some paint through it, we've got the problem again.

Could it be related to temperature outside? How much grease is used? Also we broke some paint; the fill could be effecting it?

One other option is to try a different solenoid, and see if its related to that.

I've been busy with finals so we havnt had that much time to work on it; But next week we have a 3 day weekend and no homework :D

[poopthatkilledelvis]

could very well be the fact that the ram is having some sticking issues. with the bolt under constant pressure (250 psi iirc), the ram might be binding inside the bore. the low velocity would be caused by the bolt/ram moving too slowly over the air opening... i'm assuming that your design is hammerless.

[Thorpydo]

im going to venture games tomarrow err today... well saturday the 1st to ref. if yur not familiar with them- they are located near mt. diablo on marsh creek road. not sure what city bu in the bay area... well see how good it is. but the good news is i get to play for free : ).

[la690]

Thorpydo, how old are you? I think you are my hero aswell.
BTW we need updates!!

[Thorpydo]

I'm 17 and I think Richie is too.

As far as updates go.. We're a little burned out; Taking short break (Think I can speak for Richie there)

Update: We've got the same problem, which is the first shot low thing. Richie has a idea and hopefully it will work. Unfortunatly, we've got to get some special electronics to get it to work, which were not sure how were gonna do yet.

[la690]

17?!?!?!?! wow i wish i had your resources/intelligence:(

[Rex Carnage]

" Unfortunatly, we've got to get some special electronics to get it to work, which were not sure how were gonna do yet."

Thorpydo, if you are interested, I can do custom electronics. I make an LCD electro board for the Rainmaker (THUNDERboard).

My e-mail is rexcarnage@comcast.net, shoot me your needs and we can work something out.

[Catch22]

Just wondering since you do rainmaker work if you have ever heard of the "Painmaker." Had backlit led type screen on front shroud with calculator type programming. You guys Gotta check out the site for it though
http://www.madhacker.org/images/pmlcd20.jpg

http://www.madhacker.org/projects.htm

[Rex Carnage]

Catch 22,

Yes I had heard of them. I originally just made my board for me because I wanted to have an LCD display and board in the frame. The response was good so I started making them for others.

[Thorpydo]

Hey,

We are putting a ir emitter/detector on the same circuit as the micro switch is on the morlock board. The ir emitter/detector is acting just like a switch.

The voltage that the switch circuit carries is 3.95v. The morlock gives the the detector about 3.3v and the led about 3.75v.

We know that we will need a resistor from the battery to the emitter but do you guys think that the voltage will be close enough to for the detector? (3.3v runs regularly, we would be running it at 3.95.

Also, if the two voltages are NOT close enought together, we may take the voltage down to 3.3v. Would that be enough for the micro switch circuit of the morlock board to function?

We could also use a voltage inbetween, so that they would both work the switch and detector OR we could make a circuit board with additional circuitry that would have all the right voltages everywhere, but that requires a bit more work, and we would like to keep it simple.

Thanks,
PS Richie knows a bit more about electronics: Sorry if Im not getting something right.

[Thorpydo]

Please disregard my blabal in the previous post.

We're still here; still trying to get things done.

[Thorpydo]

Still learning the program... It can be difficult.

The program is called Rhinoceros and a trial version(What were using at this point) can be downloaded off their website. Only limitation is 25 saves: http://www.rhino3d.com/

Any ideas for milling? Please, if you want, sketch them out and post!

[Thorpydo]

Seems as though I'm talking to myself... Oh well

Need to get this pic hosted, but it relates to the gun were building and you guys might be interested.

I need to know where I need to place resistors and of what resistance.

[cracker344]

hmmm...well one reason for 1st shot drop off in impy's is the ram, the ram is under a prolonged amount of presure it gets stuck, so the air balances and shizo get all messed up

this is not true in b2k3's and bko's because they utilize a spring in the ram to keep if from getting stuck

i hope this helps

[Thorpydo]

Makes sense, but why doesn't it happen in the timmy/angel/ and any of those other guns I'm forgetting? smaller bore ram?

The prolonged pressure creates static friction, spring I guess would help.

[cracker344]

i dunno if does or not, but they have a differnt design i guess, who knos

maybe its "magic", lol

[Thorpydo]

Ah yes, connections certainly do rule. We have almost everything we need drawn up and ready for milling. all we need to do is run a few more tests. SHWING! Then we have a shop over in Daly City with like 10 CNC machines to start jacking suckas in the face. After we get this whole thing smoothed out I think we will start doing custom mill jobs for cockers and mags too. I'm thinking instead of having simple designs to choose from, we talk to the people and they draw what they want on a napkin and we'll take care of the rest. For a reasonable price of course. Any thoughts on that? I thought it was a good idea. Anysways, Sunday Adam (this is richie by the way) is going to go paintballing in Modesto or something to show off the TMCC and blow that gay alien gun out of the water. I can't go cause'a work but oh well. You guys should be hearing more about this stuff soon, and well release specs and shizat about it soon too. We need to make a website too but well save that for later. Any comments about anything or milling designs for sure post (even if its just a rough description)-- or any other ideas that could improve anything. the point is POST! I want to hear from you guys.
-Rich
cheezmonkyifier@aol.com
AIM Handle: CheezmonkyifieR

[TeamImp]

We want sum Updated Pix!!!!!!! Yea!!! Fills us in on sum more info, like How much?

[Thorpydo]

Updated pics? The actual gun looks pretty much the same. We've been trying to get the electronics figured out; Havn't gotten there yet but hopefully soon.

We're still learning Rhino and Pro/E, probably why there isn't any noticable progress.

As far as price.. No idea, were still worrying about the prototype. If I had to *GUESS* I would say between 600-800.

Btw, thanks for posting! I didn't realize people were still interested/wanted pics.
-----------------------
Change: Wont be able to make it to Modesto today.. Wish I could.

And.. why are you using my account Richie? :rolleyes:

[CaptaiN_JacK]

have you thought about copyrighting or getting a patent for the design? that way you could post it wherever you want and not have to worry about somebody stealing your design. also, i was thinking today about how you could get this gun out in the open so people could see it perform and want to buy it, but with a pricetag between 600-800, not many people would want to buy a gun from a company they didnt know. anyways, heres my idea: for a LIMITED time, sell them for cheap, im saying about the same as you payed for the recources. that way a bunch of people would buy them and get the word out. then jack the price up so you would start making a profit.
-just rambling-

[Dubstar112]

Im definatley interested, as I bet many others... Be sure to keep us informed! ;)

[Jðhñ]

I'm interested. :)

Keep us posted, preferably with pictures ;)

[Thorpydo]

Jack, Thats a good idea. I think that we've contemplated that before.

Im thinking it will be kinda hard to sell them at first

The 600-800$ range was estimated a while back when we were planning to get the pieces machined from a local machine shop. As I recal the prices seemed horrendous, but they have to make a profit to and the quanity that we wanted just wasnt enough. I think they wanted to charge 200 per body, 100 for gripframe, 60 for trigger and 100 for front block (That was for a run of 5). We couldnt afford to get anymore then 5 done and even that was strecthing it. Money for circuit boards/solenoids... barrels, regulators.

Since then we've combined the front block and grip frame. We're getting the machining done at a friends shop for I think the cost of the aluminum. There wont be programming charges like there would have been because we are now drawing it up in a 3D CAD programe ourselves. Weve talked about getting circuit boards made for between 50 and 70... Not 125 for the morlock like we figured. Delta Paintball is local (Bob longs shop) and were pretty good friends with them. I would bet that we could get some torpedo regulators at a discount.(If that's the reg we decide; havn't even thought about it) All thats left is barrels and solenoids.

I think that we cant get lower than 600 :)

Gotta go,
cya guys later

[aut911]

ok for barrels just go cocker threaded because everybody else does. theres the tap and drill specs
http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/

Also, if you are looking for delrin or ertalyte or even nylon, go to www.smallparts.com

clippard on line makes a variety of valves but more importantly rams of many sizes and bores.
http://www.clippard.com/store

also if you want to make your own board with there own dwell times, you can buy the basic stamp from the robot store.
www.robotstore.com

Jameco sells programming products as well but they are a little less user friendly.
more importantly they sell switches, micro switches and solenoids.

well all in all i thought that i could help a little. Mabye i did, mabye i just filled up valuable space. meh.

aut

[Thorpydo]

We were planning on going for cocker threads; I've got the tap in my garage :)

I knew about smart parts and clippard but the robotstore/jameco may come in handy if we can't get the morlock to do what we want. (Which we probably can, Richy is doing the breadboarding/soldering :D)

Thanks for the help though. If nothing else (and we end up not needing jameco/robotstore) then maybe a fewer browsers stumbled on to the Rat's Nest (great resource) and the guild.

Anyway, I'm still nubbing it out in pro/engineer (Seems like this thing could take years to learn...) But I've started making the parts. Heres the first; but it will be divided up into two parts later. I've still got to learn the assembly portion of pro/e but after that comes the fun stuff:D I'm pretty sure I can do an animation from within the program and also use Mechanica (Which is a subsection of pro/e I believe). After I've learned Mechanica (which I'm sure is just as involved and difficult to learn as pro/e), I can test the prototype in the program, on the computer! Looking forward to that.

Heres where we are:
What do you like about it? What don't you like(TELL US SO WE CAN CHANGE IT)? I was going for sleek but it might be borderline plain :(

[Dubstar112]

Looks good. Will the frame separate from the body, and will it take standard grips?

[Thorpydo]

Yes and yes. Were designing it now for Angel LCD grips but that could change,

[Catch22]

A couple of things maybe to think about when making the bodies.

Maybe interchangeable breeches for warps(Unless AGD has it patented already) and also maintainence.

Ex: try to make it easy to fix common problems like O-rings and seals.

[Thorpydo]

The interchangable breechs is a thought; Does anyone know if the removing style of breeches for the matrix is patented?

As far as maintainence, we've got a total of 4 o-rings. 3 of which move and one that is stationary (Excluding o-rings in cocker style cylinder. Other then that, there are no seals.:) We like to KISS.

[Catch22]

Yeah KISS is a good policy and no I don't know if Diablo or whoever has patened that idea. Try looking for a patent search service on the internet that is up to date. I don't know... do those searches cost money?? Can't be too much if so.

[Thorpydo]

I know that you can just search for patents and patent applications at http://www.uspto.gov/ but it's possible to miss it; If your searching for diablo, they may have listed it under the engineers name for exampe. I'll take a look though.

[HyRoller22]

WOW......I just went through the whole thread....That is pretty sweet!!! I think it is funny how people are thinking about milling already!
But....I have three questions.

The First:
What is the overall length of the body???(not including the barrel)

The Second(Which you probably won't answer):
Is this marker open or closed bolt???

The Third(4 Parts....LOL):
What solenoids are you using/where did you get them/how much are they/how fast do they cycle????
Thank you.

[Thorpydo]

I probably shouldn't be thinking about the milling... But Richy's got the electronics covered and I'm here drawing it up; Why not spend some time on cosmetics:)

The length of the body about 9 to10 inches long

It's open bolt

Where using what comes in an intimidator, I believe its a skinner. They are indirect acting as opposed to something like a MAC valve, which is direct. It's been a while since I was researching the whole solenoid thing, but as memory recalls, put simply: the indirect has a solenoid that controls a pilot valve which controls a bigger valve. The direct has a solenoid that controls just one valve (the bigger valve in the indirect). Sorry for the crappy explantion... Anyway, indirect cycle slower than direct, but get a much better shot count (I remeber hearing something like 10-15 ms to cycle, but that sounds real slow to me now, it may have been 6). I live close to Delta Paintball, so I got one from Bob Long. I believe it was 40-50ish. I don't think they normally sell to the public.

[HyRoller22]

If you were to say this is a combination of two guns.....which would it be???

[Thorpydo]

It's in a class of its own! ;)

[Thorpydo]

You like?

[cracker344]

vera nice


hey i see u use pro/engineer, could u e-mail me a basic layout and maybe i could do one of my own?

cracker344@yahoo.com

[Thorpydo]

Sent; thx again, btw

[Mossman]

Lookin nice dude, looks like a 2k3 shocker now :)

[Crimson_Turkey]

Lookin good.

[Thorpydo]

Hey,

I'm looking for you guys opinion on one aspect of the marker.

Our current design allows the gun to be easily stripped. When the gun is degassed, all it takes is pushing a button and the gripframe and the gun slide apart, all of the internals are visible but still attached to the gripframe. Note that it takes a push of the button *and* the marker being degassed. This is so that: 1. Your marker doesn't fall apart on you if you happen to nudge up against the button 2.You forget the marker is gassed; Strip it down and have air going everwhere 3. The marker falls apart in your gearbag. Also note that it's not like some markers (timmy comes to mind) where you remove the gripframe and you've still got these hoses being pulled on.

Now for the disadvantages. There is a hole on the backside of the gun and a slot running about halfway up the bottom of the marker *check picture*. These both lead to where the ram is and are seperated from the bolt and any o-rings for the most part. BUT, the o-rings are critical and dirt will work itself in there if the user isn't careful. Also, if someone dissambles the gun and sets it down on a gritty table, and then reassembles it, its likely that dirt will get in. A scrathed O-ring would cause a leak, in the gripframe or down the barrel; the severity I don't know. The fix would be fairly easy. Disassemble the gun (which is easy) and replace 3 or 4 o-rings (which is also easy).

An alternate solution removes the slit down the bottom of the body but also require buying a different sleeve if you wanted to buy an aftermarket ram (cocker). Also there may be a problem with the ram working its way out of the sleeve.

What do you guys think? Do the pros outwiegh the cons? Should we keep thinking and try to come with some other solution? What are you guys, as players, concerned with in a marker?

Please take the time to think about it and the more information you give us, the more we can do with it.

THANKS!

[Crimson_Turkey]

I say keep it as it is and don't lay your marker down in a lump of turd.

[Kai]

I also just stumbled across this thread. You guys are doing great work. I love the body design, very classy.

Good luck, and keep us updated.

[Catch22]

With dirt getting into the gun... That won't be a problem. because I really don't know people that take apart their impulses and angels and just leave all the crap on some pressboard table near the field.

With the ram coming loose.. If you have a ram extending itself against something with resistance then it's probably going keep pushing itself back into place right?

If the ram isn't backed up against a wall then maybe put a little ledge or a lip behind and/or in front of it if the design allows. That might be kinda hard to mill out though.

[trxtr]

have you thought about scrapping the bolt o-rings alltogether? the new bolts worr games is using on the E orracles are o-ringless delrin which are "supposed" to be superior to other designs. this may help

[Thorpydo]

I believe this has been mentioned, but incase, for somereason, the link for the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th pg wasn't working, I'll say it again. ;) :rolleyes:

The O-rings need to be there. It's not like normal gun; at rest, these o-rings have air pressure on them. Taking them out would create leaks.

I'm pretty sure were past that problem and just waiting for Richy to finish the electronics... Or was it start... :mad: :rolleyes:

[trxtr]

i just read the first post and replied, didn't even realize it was 5 pages long . looks pretty sweet. hope it does what you want it to.

[nerobro]

so long as you arne't using a 9 volt battery.. you can get good shot counts. :-)

this gun is begining to look a lot like the matrix in operatoin. A mag with a ram to move the bolt instead of chamber pressure ;-) but a whole heck of a lot prettier.

so if it's not a dump chamber.. then what is it?

[Thorpydo]

We're planning on using a 9 volt.

A timmy uses a 9 volt and were using the same type of solenoid as they do. I don't know how many shots I get, but it's quite a bit.

"this gun is begining to look a lot like the matrix in operatoin. A mag with a ram to move the bolt instead of chamber pressure "

Ehh, not really

[nerobro]

9volts upset me. Their preformance is lame. 12-13ms is a long time to switch :-/

I have a dream of an ultimate blowback ;-) One that cocks itself, and has all the benifits (speed) of a blowback..

[WickeDKlowN]

Whoa, just found this thread, and damn! Good work!

The only problem that I can see is that it looks a but long... But I guess thats cause I'm used to looking at 'mags. Other than that, I like it! If you ever sell them, I will consider getting one if the price isn't insanley high.

Keep up the great work guys!

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

WOW guys, this is the first 6 page thread I have ever read. Great work. To your last proposal (sp) as to what I want as a player, I want something that is simple. I want something that will preform like my impulse, that I don't have to worry about any thing happen to. My Imp does a good job at this. If I was going to spend 600-800 bucks on a marker, I want it to work when I want it to work. Not be like a cocker/matrix and work when ever it decides to.

Side note- Check out frames,look at the space frame, also look at the OTB frame for the Imp. If you could turn something like that out on your lathe, but with a few differnces to get by the patent issue. It would be a major saleing point, say makeing groove to rest your hand in for instance, simple, practicle(sp) and DIFFERENT.

Good luck guys, don't give up.

[Teen]

thorpydo, so whats been done to it so far, if you've even worked on it. just wondering, cuz noones posted any updates for a few days.

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

Gimme updates PLEASE!!!!

[Thorpydo]

Well, I've been drawing stuff and richy has been slacking on the electronics. Actually hes not slacking hes waiing for mail. ummm. on the gun so far we have a prototype, most all drawings done we need for CNC, and a workshop to do it in. Basically, all we need to do is finalize he gripframe- trigger area, and give it all a look over. Then we'll build it, test it, redesign, build, test, etc. we will let you know if anything big happens though. Seriously we need some milling ideas becausethat is totally up in the air right now. also we were curious if you guys would want us to just make the lightest possible gun we could, without design for milling?? do you think it would sell? it would be soley for performance purposes.... anyway some feedback would be great. oh and
lathe= round stuff
mill= other shapes (eg. gripframe)
oh yeah, and RC cola's the best kind of cola hands down...
thats all i have to say

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

Go light, but make some awsome milling. Look at the difference in the GZ timmy and the Dragun Timmy. Basically the same gun, the Dragun just looks prettyer so it sales for more. Just a thought.

[Thorpydo]

Whats it like to talk in the 3rd person Richy? :D

I semi agree with the GZ/dragon thing. The dragons a bit much for me though. I like the idea of a balls out gun, but I guess its got to look good too.

[FalconGuy016]

Thordic! YOUR SIG PIC! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

[Catch22]

I think it woul be a good idea to just keep the milling out of the equation right now. If you don't do fancy milling then it'll cost less right?

Also, Just keep the gun looking good with flowing lines ect. Let people do their own crazy milling because in the end, That's what they like.

Think about it. You could always do a later version of you gun and call it: "The Ironman TMCC" haha.

[Crimson_Turkey]

For milling I love the look of the lasoya timmy and the dye reflex cocker. A simple flowing line looks great.

[Thorpydo]

for sure i agree with crimson with the lasoya timmy. i lovethe way that gun looks. its sleek but wicked at the same time. as of right now we are doing the machining by the gun and not the hour so any millings would be under consideration, even the complex ones. i think there are problems with the dragun timmy's milling. its just so damn busy. its like they tried to hard. also it almost looks like something that doesnt shoot paint. if anything, you put it on your wall and never take it down. i dont know, thats just how i see it. i like the gz better for that reason-- practical for playing, looks playable. just a thought. and adam richy does like talking in the third person.

[Thorpydo]

You think these guys are confused, richy?:D

I think we gotta worry about it working well first;)

[Thorpydo]

all i was saying was that we can have complex millings because we are paying by the gun and not bu how long its on the cnc. so all ideas for milling are valid. would any of you guys shoot a plastic gun? it would be helza light... i dont know.. just a thought.

[Kai]

Deffinately not plastic.

Keep the milling fairly simple. I hate the looks of the Dragon...way too much going on there. Simple and classy is the way to go.

[Thorpydo]

We're at least going to build another prototype out of clear polycarbonate... It will be pretty easy. Easy to drill out main hole, easy to tap barrel threads and have them actually line up; Everything easy, Hopefully. Will be useing a mag rail/ASA since I already have them for another undisclosed project:). Should be easier to evaluate any problems were having.

It shouldn't take too much time out of the project because all thats left is the electronics (which we are waiting for a wiring harness/eyes) and the CAD drawings (which are 90% done and I cant spend entire days on the computer anymore)

After that it's more waiting for scheduled time to go to the machine shop and get it made.

[Crimson_Turkey]

I personally would shoot a high grade polymer gun. But, don't make them out of plastic. It would be impossible to market. H&K can pull it off, you probably can't.

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

Yes stay away from plastic, go read almost any top of the line marker review that has a plastic peice. PLAYERS DON'T LIKE IT. Look at the OTB frame for the imp, alot nicer then the I frame, more comfotable but it has a plastice trigger, thus everyone is still shooting the I frame. As for milling I say make 2 versions, flowing lines with a cheaper price. Insane Dragon type milling for the big spenders.

[Catch22]

If so then paintballjewels.com can make any image into various shapes and give you deals for like 1000. Just to let you know.

Also on that polycarbonate. If it's clear will it turn white when you drill it?

[Thorpydo]

I was aware of the jewels thing, but thanks.

On the polycarbonate... If the surface is nice and polished then it is clear. Unfortunatly, when Im drilling it, I'm getting these small cracks all along the inside surface.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85937
-for info

Most will hopefully come out when I ream the hole.

[HyRoller22]

Got any updates or videos???

[Thorpydo]

Waiting on wiring harness from exarin. Curt, the guy that works there, is apparently up to his ears in work. I talked with him today, he said that he would have it shipped by the end of the week.

I'll hopefully have the 2nd prototype finished soon too. I don't know if this was mentioned, but it will be a clear body so we will be able to see the o-rings and what exactly they are doing.

[Catch22]

So are you changing the TMCC to a clear body design now? I would say that I like aluminum or steel bodies better because they feel more like a gun but I CAN'T say that because I've never seen a gun ,ade out of clear polycarbonate. Have you had a working prototype yet w/ the polycarbonate?

Just some chatter to keep the thread going.

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

Can't wait to see the second prototype, keep it up bro!

[Thorpydo]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=873348#post873348

-info/pics about the pump gun that I'm also making

The plan is that with that gun, all I have to do to convert it to a TMCC is make an adaptor(so that we can put the heavily modified pirahana gripframe on); take off the pump arm/handle and put in the rock; make a new, simplier piece to go in the ASA and remove the clear back half of the body; replacing it with a new, longer body. I guess that list sounds a bit long, but I'm thinking it really won't be that hard.

The clear is just for the prototype, when we have it machined(hopefully soon), it will be aluminum.

...But first I'd like to finish the pump. It's summer now (YEAH!) so I've got alot of free time to do both.

[Matt_mg]

Read trough the whole thread, nice project you have going!

I was just working on drawings for my own project (can't steal your ideas mine is a ramless and valveless design) and I was wondering how thick does the aluminium need to be in order not to blow up?

Also where did you get cad, been searching all over for the damn thing ;)...

thanks, can't wait to see vids of that thing working!

[Thorpydo]

Valveless? Hmm interesting

I bought a student version of pro/E. It's not autocad, its better =D. I know you can get copies of it on ebay for pretty cheep.

As far as thickness goes... All I can do is an educated guess. That microline is thin walled; ~1/16?. Thats a plastic, but its also only holding 100psi (although I'm sure it can hold more). But, its better to go thicker than thiner.

Don't mention videos... It will be a while and I don't want to start getting pestered already:).

Another thing: I guess I didn't completely understand the equalizer boards. Apparently the dwell timer is started after the bolt is in the forward position. Im asking Jim in another thread. If thats true, I might just have to buy one :D, and then later I could put it in my timmy. Or I could borrow my friends. But I like the first better, good excuse to get one.

[Matt_mg]

So pro/E can be used to run C&C machines too?

Macroline holds way more (aka my 850 psi nitro duck screw-in) and isn't much thicker. It's true that the prototypes you made are kinda blocky (well on the pics anyway) so they have a low chance of blowing up...

[Thorpydo]

Pro/e is only a CAD program. Youd need something else to run CNC machines.

Yeh.. the old one is blocky, but we will see about the new one!

[shooty69]

well thorpydo i already stole your idea and got a patent requested for it.....not really but

i need to talk to ya (this is ras928 {un99known911}) since i cant post on my other name i made this one

but ima try sumthing and wanna talk to you about it first

[Catch22]

Wait a second. I keep hearing you refer to somebody named richie. Is this richie the same richie who is a mod over at WGPpress.com?

[Thorpydo]

Richy is my friend. Were both working on it, not just me. I think hes posted a few times under his name and several times under mine:rolleyes: :) He's also in one of the pictures on the first page. Hes not the guy at WGPpress

[RUFF N TUFF]

GOOD WORK!!!

[Matt_mg]

What did you use to do that .700 hole?

And by the way here's a good news for your marker AKA is going to make a cocker version of the SCM, that's going to lower your bolt's pressure to not even a pinch!

[Thorpydo]

11/16 drill and then a .700 reamer.

Here's proto#2. Only thing new is the feed tube is actually pressed in(not sitting ontop), and the ball detent is in. But I don't know that you guys saw the original stuff from the pump thread. All that needs to be done now is to make the back half of the body(relativly easy assuming everything goes the way it should) and to make a adaptor so that I can put our old gripframe on the mag rail. We should be able to use our existing internals.

[Matt_mg]

looking good!

Could ULE mag rails fit this? They are so light.

[Thorpydo]

I don't see why not, although there wouldn't be much point because again, this is just a prototype.

[HyRoller22]

Can you put the grip frame on and take a picture of the SIDE.....I just want to see how it will look.

Thanks,
Tony

[Thorpydo]

Nothings finished. Been busy with other stuff all afternoon. Here's a pic, Roller.

The plate inbetween rail and gripframe is not how I want it, so I'm going to make a new piece. Add an inch and a half to that body and that's what it will look like. The body pictured is from the pump gun and the two differ.

Also, we MIGHT have a machined body/gripframe(like in the CAD pics) and the whole bunch later this week. Everythings just about finished, just need to tie up the loose ends.

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

Is that a matrix breech on proto number 2?

[Thorpydo]

No, that's just a piece that I made. I opted to do it that way so that the barrel threads/detent threads/vert tube connection was all aluminum as opposed to plastic.

[HyRoller22]

If that works similar to a Matrix(which you said it doesnt)you could call that the mini-Matrix. I met that dude that worked on the mini-Matrix and I got to shoot it. He called it the Hedron......but I guess that project was abandoned.
Either way that is pretty cool. About how tall is that?...not including the feed or frame???

Thanks,
Tony

[Thorpydo]

The Hedron is being made by Aardvark. I believe they are still working on it. I actually talked to the guy over the phone about my project... real nice guy and very helpful.

I'm not sure what your asking about heighth. The diameter on the tube is 1 1/8, the plate is 3/16 and the rail... I dunno but you mag owners should:).

About the machining; It's not going to happen this week.

Also, you realize that that body is not the right body, the right body is about an inch and a half longer.

[Catch22]

Sounds like it's going to be cool. You've come a long way. Give us an new info on the bodie(s) when you get them!

[Thorpydo]

Sounds like the body and everything on the inside is easy to do. However, the gripframe is a completely different story. By looking at the drawings, oneof the guys there estimated 10 hours of run time. 1 hour would be reasonable:). Apparently, it will take so long because they will have to use a very small cutter... I guess only a mm or two wide. Also, cuts need to be made on every side except the back.

That was just from looking at orthographic drawings though. I just sent them some .igs and they are going to see what the actual runtime will be.

I've been doing alot of CAD stuff the last few day and havn't had a change to work on the #2 proto body anymore.

I will let you guys know whats up.

[Catch22]

Sooo.. Can I get a progress report?? LOL Haven't heard from you guys in a while. You guys haven't given up have you!!! I think that we are all still interested in whats going on.

Let us know..


Thanks,
Nick.

[Thorpydo]

Hey, Glad to see you guys are interested :)

Basically, we've been talking to the machine shop trying to get our gripframe and body simplified. It really shouldn't be that hard, although I have been a bit lazy with it. :( Not uninterested, just more unmotivated. We've been working along time, with little reward. I also have a two part time jobs now, so I'm a bit busy with those.

We might end up just making a cylindrical body, like the mage and a blocky gripframe, for the 1st professionally machined prototype anyway.

I'm also going to add that our relationship with the machine shop is not how it normally is in the business world and thus, the priority for our stuff is much less.

On a side not, I've been looking for a bigger lathe and possibly a *cheep* CNC mill (one option is what nicad is using to do his chord bodies). One or the other/both, I don't really know yet and it will take me a bit to get the money worked up. Today I saw a classified add, 10x48 Atlas lathe with tooling for $1000 or best offer. Planning on taking a look tommorow. There was also an ad for some CNC machines.. Owner going out of business, everything must go, yada yada:) . I think those will be out of my price range though.

Still waiting for a bloody wiring harness from exarin.. This is at least a month, going on two. I've called at least three times. Every response, 'Yah, I'll send it out on...' Oh well, He's a busy guy running I believe 3 bussniess. I have some patience.

I think thats all, lmk if you have questions or know anything about prices on used machines. Thanks

[HyRoller22]

Try http://www.tarantulamfg.com/

His prices are probably lower for CNC work and he specializes with paintball guns.

Thanks,
Tony

[ZyperioN]

nice work guys

w00t im 200th reply!!!

[akagotcha]

hmmm were did you get that solenoid jw cause im looking into modifying a gun i would just like to know were you got the noid from if you have a link it would be greatly appreciated.

o yeah nice work. its loookin good maybe if your interestead ill share my ideas with ya.

or any one if they wanna give me some input.

sn= akagotcha

thanx
keith

[Catch22]

What would we give you imput on?

[akagotcha]

here the link

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93240&goto=newpost

[Thorpydo]

Join the smart parts rebellion! Please visit the link in my sig and use an anti smart parts avatar where possible!

[ZyperioN]

already did.....Viva La Resistance!!!:mad:

[Thorpydo]

Still here... And still waiting for the harness.

I've been busy working 2 part time jobs and am fighting my addiction with Counter-Strike again... So not a whole lot as been done regaurding the TMCC.

Heres a shot of what I'm working on now. Its not near finished; things will change. This is what I previously described as "a cylindrical body, like the mage and a blocky gripframe".

Enjoy.

[Catch22]

This is going to be SO cool. Man I can't believe that you guys have taken it this far! I have brain envy! I'd love to be a guinie pig for you guys!!! hehe. Let us know when that harness gets finished because I personally am excited!

[Thorpydo]

"This is going to be SO cool." -I hope so! :D

[Thorpydo]

Ehh, The color doesn't show up on the web like it does in the CAD program.

[ZyperioN]

hmmmm looks like a mag:D , will any parts be compatible (ie vertical adapter/foregrip)

[HyRoller22]

That is Rhino Evaluation right?

How did you learn to draw in that program???

[Thorpydo]

"hmmmm looks like a mag"

Yes, yes it does. But then again, it's going to look similar to any single tube design.

No parts will be compatable.

All of the recent pics are from Pro/Engineer. The first one or two pics are from rhino. I prefer Pro/E over rhino by a long shot. Student versions are available for below $150.

When I was using rhino, I learned through the tutorial that came with it.

[Thorpydo]

Still sorting out the little details with the simplified version... I'm not quite sure if we should have the ASA incorporated into the gripframe; If we don't, I'm not quite sure how to attach the two.

Heres a question I posted on PBN:

Hey,

I'm wondering what kind and where the majority of players prefer the on/off switch on their markers.

Do you guys like switches on timmys? Or would you prefer something more like the angel buttons. Maybe after 30 minitues the marker turns off, or you hold the button for 5 seconds to turn on, 5 seconds to turn off.

Is the side of the gripframe a good place for the switch? The very back? Recessed a bit?

Any Ideas/thoughts/complaints are welcome. Thank you.

[ZyperioN]

On the back, recessed so that u need to use your thumb nail to turn it on. Also i like a button lock feature internally that pervents you from turning it off until it is disabled, that takes care of it being accidentally turned off on the field.

[Kai]

Keep the info comming.

I love the prototype 2, even with the extra metal block just above the grip frame. I think that looks great.

Good luck, and good work so far.

[P8ntBallBoom]

So basically the grip frame and tube are all in one? Awesome! I honestly have to admit, u are a friggen genius for being able to do this.

Now jsut imagine how much people who haven designed the guns we use today have gone through? :eek:

[Thorpydo]

"So basically the grip frame and tube are all in one?"

Naw, whered you get that?

[SomebodySomeoneRTPcf]

Man that gun is so wierd RO-BO Cop would use it. (8'D>

[ZyperioN]

Im pretty sure it was just "Robo":D

[HyRoller22]

ZyperioN .....I like how your sig takes up half a page every time you post...

[ZyperioN]

Half a page? I highly doubt that, it is on the large side, but your have a page comment is far from true.

[HyRoller22]

BUT...It is not sensible for all the people who are trying to read a thread about a prototype marker to be looking at crap about Smart Parts being a bunch of "Nazis"...

[ZyperioN]

If you own a high end electro or are considering buying one then yes you should be concerned. And i'll attribute this to the fact that you are new here but, I have never in my 2 1/2 years here seen anything about all signatures must be topic oriented. But that being said if this patent goes through, the makers of this here prototype marker might not be able to produce their product, so in essence it is influential to this project. So before you begin to make comments on others I suggest you become a little more experienced around these forums.

[Mistr_eX]

We will leave it at smart parts can go scratch, ZyperioN's image is big- but not that big, and the TMCC is going to rock hard. btw this is richy- i got a new posting name! ok things to think about:
how universal should the gun be?
-we know it's one of a kind but will people think that because it uses parts already in production (eg. barrel threads, ball detents, vert tubes etc.) that it is just another spyder or whatever clone?

what pisses people off in games?
-loud, heavy, big guns. solution: quiet gun. check. small gun. check. light gun. check. what more do you need? the answer is nothing, but the public wants firing modes, cool milling, cool tags, with a sense of individuality. would a newb gun (eg. a gun with firing modes, milling and shizat) be necessary? or should a bad-***, sleek, light, compact gun be made for soley tournement play?

what are people going to be willing to pay for a gun that has no reputation up to this point (except for this forum's knowledge)?
- let us know and we can see what we can do for price.

anyway, these are just some queestions running through my head at the moment abd i thought that id share the ideas for discussion. and i still like the plastic gun ;)

[HyRoller22]

I am planning on getting a 2003 shocker soon....and I will still love Smart Parts the same because the broadening of their patent(s) is never going to go through....and if it did....I will decide if I like their company after they start enforcing their rights to the patent. As of right now...all this crap is rumors....and the TMCC project is still cool. P.S. I like your sig now....its more organized!!!

[Mistr_eX]

We will be at Wapp tomarrow aka saturday

[Thorpydo]

Heh, funny how lightly your(Hyroller) taking the whole SP ordeal. It's not all rumor or 'internet BS', as a friend of mine likes to call it. It is very real, and if it wasn't, Bob Long and Gino wouldn't have paid SP 1 million + ~$50 per gun sold. Thats not heresay on the forums, checkout warpig or FON for info on that.

It's not going to put an end to paintball. There will still be electronic guns, but at the already astonding cost of anything paintball related, its hard to imagine a higher price. You'll also see alot of the 'smaller' companies going out of business, unable to front the 1 million. I've heard talk of both ICD and JT going out of business. Now that *is* heresay. Ah, and one more thing: It would suck to hate the company of your $1200 or whatever price dollar gun.

Anyway... This isn't a thread about the SP patent ordeal, sorry to get off topic.

Quote, posted by me in an earlier thread: "Still sorting out the little details with the simplified version..." We've figured how were going to do everything. I'm just about finished drawing and after that, we go to the machine shop... Hopefully it all works out as planned!

[HyRoller22]

This is what I found on WARPIG.COM:

"Smart Parts, Inc. and National Paintball Supply, Inc. today announced the signing of a Patent License Agreement giving National Paintball Supply rights to make, sell, offer for sale, and distribute products covered by Smart Parts¹ electronic paintball gun patents.

Smart Parts owns several issued patents and pending patent applications related to the use of electronics in the control and operation of paintball guns. These include, for instance, U.S. Patent Nos. 5,881,707; 5,967,133; 6,035,843; and 6,474,326 B1."

And where is the $1 MILLION + $50 DOLLARS per gun deal again???

I also checked FON and there is no sign of that deal anywhere....:confused:

Maybe I could post pics of my shocker on here when I get it???

OH SORRY....WE ARE OFF THE SUBJECT

[natgry]

thorp, what you got going is pretty elite...I've been looking into designing and making my own cockers and mags, but nothing near what you're doing...

keep up the good work!

[Thorpydo]

natgry, Thanks! East bay SF ehh? Thats where Richie and I are from.

I believe Richie is still working on a solution using our existing morlock board. I'm going to build a new board (probably what we should have done from the beginning). It will be much easier to change anything and everything.

I ordered a basic stamp circuit board... Found here: http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=BS1-IC

Warpig did a write up on it a bit ago... Found here: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/electronics/basic_stamp/

I've got a tad of experience with the basic stamp2, as I had a project using one in 8th grade. Also, I have some experience with basic so I don't think I'll have too much difficulty. On the other hand, I thought this project was going to be done... what? A summer ago?! So who knows.

The basic stamp is in the mail so I've been working on the program. Here's what Ive got. I have no way to compile or test it yet. Feel free to chime in! :)

DIRS=%11000000
PINS=%01000000'###Input pin 2/3 set to low?
'### Solenoid=p0 Output
'### On/Off LED=p1 Output
'### Bolt Eye=p2 Input
'### Switch=p3 Input


Trigger:
BUTTON 3,1,255,0,B3,0,Solenoid '### Trigger switch
GOTO Trigger


Solenoid:
HIGH 0 '### Activates solenoid
LP1:
IF B3=0 THEN Dwell '### Checks bolt
GOTO LP1


Dwell:
LOW 1 '### Blink LED
PAUSE 20 '### Forward dwell
LOW 0 '### Deactivates solenoid
PAUSE 30 '### Bolt open time
HIGH 1 '### Blink LED
GOTO trigger

[ZyperioN]

code looks good. I would go ahead and add a shot counter (very easy) and bps counter(a little harder). Also adding an adjustable full-auto mode might would let you test out the guns capabilities, of course i wouldnt sell it with f/a if i were you. I hope you planning to add an LCD display or a LED dot matrix.

[Thorpydo]

Unless I want to take up the majority of the I/O pins on the LCD another rather large component is necessary so that only one pin is used.

I never use the LCD on my timmy... I also like the 'all balls' concept so I'm really not wanting to go there with the LCD thing.

And probably most important, this is a prototype. I don't care how many balls I shot :). The full auto feature.. That could be useful, but I think that if and when we need it, I'll just modify the code a bit.

To conteract most of what I just said, I just found out that I can store values in the EEPROM and possibly get that number back from the computer? Might be a little interesting to know the total number of shots we've put through it.

Hows the LED dot matrix work?

[Mistr_eX]

everything right now is coming together nicely, because of that i'm having a good day.

[ZyperioN]

LED dot matrix is just like what they use on the EMAG. Just a block of dots that you can program to give readouts. they are cheap and don't use that many I/O pins. Also you have the ability to make custom images/characters to display on them. check out this catalog for a selection: http://www.jameco.com/ (http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/Jameco/searchResult.d2w/report?sort=BKW&search=dot+matrix) I would look around electronics stores, your bound to find one that is the right size for your project.

[Pbnationguy]

needs dollar signs


Ian Cashmoney187



www.intimidatorownersgroup.com
www.spentgear.com

[ZyperioN]

FYI what you would do is buy like 8 of the smallest blocks you find and set them up in a single block. some people have asked about it so i thought i'd get that out beforehand

[Thorpydo]

"DIRS=11100100

LET B4=1000'####Dwell
LET B5=400'####Drop

SYMBOL Dwell=B4
SYMBOL Dwell=B5

HIGH 2
HIGH 5

Ready:

LET B1=0
LET B2=0
LET B3=0

Trigger:
BUTTON 3,0,255,0,B1,0,Trigger

HIGH 1'####Activates Solenoid
LOW 2'####Turns off power switch
Sensor:
BUTTON 4,1,255,0,B2,0,Sensor
Pause Dwell
LOW 1'####Deactivates Solenoid
HIGH 2'####Turns on power switch
PAUSE Drop

Depress:
BUTTON 3,1,255,0,B3,0,Depress

GOTO Ready"


Got the board... I've been playing with it the last couple of days. When its working its really satisfying but when I'm having problems and things don't make sense its frusterating as hell!

The above is the current code. Everything works except for the solenoid. Its getting power, but I fear that it got too much...(Wasn't thinking and just wanted to get the thing firing) Maybe fried it. I can't get it to work with the morlock either. I might try taking it apart and take a look at the coil, maybe I can replace that.

This is pretty cool stuff, I must admit. I havn't really been into electronics but this can be fun.

I'll take a picture of the setup later tonight and post.

[Spray Painter]

thats cool, i found this thread a while ago and have been following now. i'm thinking about building a gun(wouldn't be anything like yours) and this thread is really helpfull

[Thorpydo]

Glad to here it!

Camera is acting up... Computer isn't seeing it.

Good news! After pulling the solenoid valve apart a little bit I noticed one of the power wires had been pulled off, inside under the cover... Meaning it never burnt out, and I get a second chance!:D And no $40 down the drain if I couldn't fix it.

I'm pretty sure the solenoid takes 5 volts and .5 amperes. There's a 5 volt regulator on the basic stamp board so hope I'll be able to use that.

[Thorpydo]

Got the camera working.

Bad camera=Bad picture:eek:

[billmi]

Aren't Basic Stamps fun?

I'd be leary of using the onboard voltage regulator to power the solenoid. It's not meant to drive much more than the stamp itself.

What have you got on Pin2? Your comments say you're turning the power switch on and off. Are you using that pin for input (i.e. receiving a signal from someone pressing the switch or not) or for output (your commands are sending a signal to it while the gun is firing)?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Thorpydo]

BILL!

Hey, great article on warpig! Thats what got this idea started. On a side note, I believe the transistor "IFR510" should be "IRF510":)

The pins on the old a new code posted here are different.
On the new, pin0=solenoid pin1=LED indicating solenoid is on
pin2=on/off LED pin3=trigger switch pin4=bolt eye (indicates when the bolt is in the forward position)

Hmm, what would you recommend me doing instead of running it off the onboard voltage regulator. I don't want to run it straight off the 9volt battery.

Oh and one more thing, I used a pull-down circuit for the circuit with the phototransistor. I replaced a switch with the phototransistor. I'm getting funky results... Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Im going to try using a 1k resistor and see how that works instead of the 10K. Any thoughts/advice?

Thanks

[billmi]

Originally posted by Thorpydo
BILL!

Hey, great article on warpig! Thats what got this idea started. On a side note, I believe the transistor "IFR510" should be "IRF510":)


Thanks :-) Glad it could be of help.




The pins on the old a new code posted here are different.
On the new, pin0=solenoid pin1=LED indicating solenoid is on
pin2=on/off LED pin3=trigger switch pin4=bolt eye (indicates when the bolt is in the forward position)


Gotcha. It was just the comment code that was confusing me then.




Hmm, what would you recommend me doing instead of running it off the onboard voltage regulator. I don't want to run it straight off the 9volt battery.



Chances are it can handle 9v just fine for the momentary pulses it will get. To be on the safe side, however you could get a fixed output voltage regulator at whatever value that solenoid valve is rated (looks in the pic like a Humphry 5v that I have.) Run the (+) from the VREG to the the solenoid, and then the other side of the solenoid to the MOSFET that will open it's connection to ground when activated.

Fixed output voltage regs are available in packages that look like the IRF510 with the same little heat sync tab on top. Radio Shack even stocks some, but has more voltage options available for order online.



Oh and one more thing, I used a pull-down circuit for the circuit with the phototransistor. I replaced a switch with the phototransistor. I'm getting funky results... Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Im going to try using a 1k resistor and see how that works instead of the 10K. Any thoughts/advice?
Thanks

If you are just checking the pin to see if it is hi or low, that may be the problem. Remember, especially if you're using the IR reflectively, that a phototransistor isn't an on/off device - it's going to let a percentage of current through - and even exposure from IR in the room will affect that, as will IR reflection/transmission qualities of the bolt and paint. Something I'd recommend experimenting with would be to run a program that uses the POT command to read the value at that pin, and then the DEBUG command to relay that value to your computer via the programming cable. Just have a loop of that, and you can see what values bolt positions, paint, etc. give. Then instead of reacting to just a high or low, you can have your software react to a value above a certain threshold. You may also still need to change resistors to get something effective, there's more info on using the POT scaling program (ctrl-P in the Basic Stamp Editor) in the Basic Stamp Ma nual, to help you configure the threshold values.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Spray Painter]

is the article on warpig in the tech section, i can't find it.

-edit- just found it

[FooTemps]

wow... I check this thread out when it was like 2 pages long. Now I reread it and I'm freaking speachless from all the progress.

[Mistr_eX]

yay! full access to a bigger lathe, a mill with digital readout, and a new drill press! progress here we come-- expect lots of updates!

[FooTemps]

cool! you know what's funny? you guys make the tube on a gripframe idea look so much better... lol

[aut911]

so how many blinks per second is that thing running at the moment? ahh just kidding. my question is though, why didnt you just use a 2 way solenoid valve instead of a 4 way. could have saved up some space. Using a spring return on the other hand may cause some problems. Now im not an expert on the design of your marker so im basically just blowing smoke. Just and idea though.

Oh one question. What was the total cost of the stamp, software and the board you are mounting everything to.

i may have a cool idea forming in the thick cobwebs that are in my brain.

aut

[Thorpydo]

http://www.parallax.com

It's all on the site. Be careful, the software on the BS1 runs on win98 and below =(.