PC insanity at DDay game...

[Trench_Riader]

I'm sure you have all heard about the big DDay event in Oklahoma that was featured in both APG and "Paintball". You can find the site for said event at:

http://www.oklahomadday.com/


Some folks in my local group are quite fired up about attending that event.
As a WW2 buff/reenactor I have been seriously considering it as well.

However I am more than a little bit anoyed at the policy change slated for
the 2003 event. It seems that the organizers have decided to ban all
"Swastikas, SS runes, and other Nazi iconography" at this event. As stated
above, I'm a reenactor and my German uniform would be a serious contendor
for the "Best costume" award. However, this change would require me to
remove or cover up the runes on my collar and the eagle on my sleave, not to
mention leave off just about every medal and decoration.

In my mind this policy change is catering to the PC crowd to a sickening
degree. Anyone who comes to a WW2 themed event and is offended by the sight
of Nazi iconography is :
a>too sensitive
b>naive
c>an idiot
or
d>All of the above.

But in the final analysis it is a privately owned site and a they have the
right to set whatever rules they want, however misguided. I just wonder if
they are are going to ban Allied insignia just to be fair.... ;-p

I'll probably still be going, but will wear my SS reversible camo smock and
helmet cover without any visible collar tabs, sleave eagles, or helmet
decals.

"Trench Raider"

[personman]

I'll probally go, I'm usually in Oklahoma around that time of year, even though her house is 5 hours away from wyandotte.. lol.
If I go I'll probally wear a T-shirt or something, and shorts.. by then I will have my beautiful E-mag.. :D :D
My class just finished reading Night by Elie Wiesel, and we have gone to a Holocaust museam and stuff, and I'm not offended by any symbols, for one.
I dont agree with them banning the symbols, at all.
It seems rather stupid, I mean if you want to go to a world war two reinactment, you should expect the symbols and not be offended by them.
On a side note I dont know what side I will be on, nor do I care.. but it does look fun and I really wanted to go to D-Day 2002, but my mom wouldnt let me because of school grades :(

[spazzed]

I hate PC. I don't wanna get started on this because I'll get myself banned.

[oldsoldier]

Well, they should be allowed to be used for re-enactments and the like. when it comes to using them as rascist, then its a problem. But, reenactments are really rascist...they are what was used during that time. Sometimes people use PC as a liscence to sensor whatever they want...maybe everyone should wear asthetically pleasing colors,and hand out flowers instead of shoot each other? blah....

[Webmaster]

Well here is my thing - and I thought about this about a year ago.

I have attended a D-Day and had a great time. And I am the first one to enjoy pretending.

The problem is maybe some of the scars are a bit too fresh. I mean- my mother-in-law is polish, and she was horribly opressed by the Nazi invasion. Her father fought in the Polish Underground Movement - against both the Nazis and the Communists. He was gone for months at a time, and was captured and escaped twice.

I dont think she would like to see anyone in full SS garb at a paintball event - or anywhere quite frankly.

It goes beyond just the Nazi iconography. Why doesnt the Japanesse "rising sun" flag and symbols raise quite the ire that the swastika does? I would have to say that is because both the SS runes and the Swastika are still used today by various hate and supremesist wacko groups. The symbols are still used and associated with bad things and are not just an artifact from a bygone era.

So - Like I said - I like to dress up too. I love going to the ren fair - and although I live in the midwest, I think a Revolutionary war or maybe even a civil war re-enactment would be neat to partake in.

But unlike any of those examples - we still have people liveing and breathing who witnessed the horrors of WWII. I am sure there were much fresher wounds after the revolutionary war too - and british flags etc would have gotten you beaten or but in the stocks.

One question I do have - and this isnt a flame - but why would you want to re-enact/imitate and German SS officer? I suppose there is a sort of admiration for the well oiled werhmacht - but its kind of creepy the devotion and level of admiration some people have. I was just wondering what your motivation was - and why you would rather re-enact them rather than say a US Ranger from the era.

Id just like to say again - that I dont think its all just PC - or peopel being stupid, or niave. I think for some its just too soon to see a group of people running around with swastikas on them.

PS - There is a GREAT book out there (the name escapes me) on the history of the swastika. It TRUELY is one of the oldest symbol in the world. It was widely used in nearly every culter around the globe - and it was generally a symbol of luck, peace, and goodwill. Navahos used to use it in ther blanket designs. India still uses it today as a luck symbol. It was popular in the 20s in europe and america as an art deco ornament. Its very interesting how such and old and postiive symbol is not forever associtated with the nazi party.

[oldsoldier]

Webby, I both agree and disagree. The average German soldier was proud to serve his country; same as any other soldier. And, the SS division that ran the concentration camps were shunned by the rest of the SS. Dont forget, there were 4 separate SS divisions. Only one of them were the feared Secret Police. The other three were a Panzer-grenadier division, and 2 panzer divisions. Towards the end of the war, they began instituting more SS divisions; but they consisted of mostly old men and kids. They werent the cream of the crop. These later divisions were also shunned by the other SS divisions.
Also, the concentration camps were normally guarded by regular wermacht soldiers recovering from wounds and waiting to go back to the war. Common knowledge history can be very misleading.
A good book I just finished on the daily life of the german soldier is called Infantry Aces. It is basically about the winners of the Knights Cross. It provides a different insight into their lives.
I am in no way defending what happened during WWII. The Nazi ideology was cruel and inhumane. No one can argue otherwise. I just think that most people dont realize that the average soldier was proud to serve, and, for the most part, wasnt aware of the Nazi internment camps.
And, if you think they were cruel, you really need to read up on the Russians in WWII. They showed no mercy at all. They were, in many ways, worse than the Japanese at that time.

[FutureMagOwner]

yeah webby my 8th grade teacher(a real cool guy that everyone thought was a huge version of stone cold steve austin) taught us that it was quite fascinating to learn

[SlartyBartFast]

Honestly, how does a paintball game re-enact the horror that was WWII?
What, if anything, does calling one team the allies and the other the Germans add to a paintball game that red vs. blue doesn't have?

[oldsoldier]

slarty, hopefully, people will look into what actually took place during the time period. Traditional reenactments teach us about history. Ask the reenactors about anything during that time period; guarantee they eill know. We have alot of civil war reenactments here; these guys know everything about the regiment they chose; its history, who belonged, the battles; all that. I personally dont care if the paintball community decides to do reenactments. I DO care that they call it a reenactment, then limit you in your costume choices. Then it isnt technically a reenactment, it is a dress up period paintball game.

EDIT: Webby, I know the book you are talking about! I had it, but my ex took it when she left. It was crowded in with a bunch of other Nordic mythology stuff...

[shartley]

OS- Good post.

I must also add that Civil War enactments are no less “removed from current times” than WWII enactments or scenario games are. Many of the racist things (and atrocities) that Civil War enactments may bring to the front of people’s minds do still happen in many places in the deep-south…. Yes, even to this day, unfortunately. I suggest anyone who thinks otherwise to look into places such as Pitkin, LA (sp?), and many others like it.

And the Japanese actually committed atrocities as bad as the Nazis did, but just because people don’t still use their flag as a symbol to symbolize the same types of feelings or ideologies expressed by Japanese leadership of the WWII era (and much further back) does not make them any less REAL or “emotion causing” for those who may see it used at a Scenario game or even an Air show.

As OS pointed out, most of the German Soldiers and Units were not the types of “Nazis” that some would like to assign to all German Soldiers of the time. No more so than ALL white people used to own slaves, which seems to be the most touted anti white rhetoric spouted to this day.

On a personal note, I happen to think the Nazi Uniforms were some of the sharpest Uniforms in History. And if you think about it, take a look at the Marines’ Dress Uniform. ;)

Many people choose to be one side or the other in a reenactment or scenario game for many reasons, and it does not mean that they agree with what that side DID. I am sure those who portray the “bad guys” are not card carrying KKK or Nazi Party members.

Yes... PC can be take too far, as I too feel it has been in this case.

[Trench_Riader]

My, I opened up a can of worms....;)

Webmaster----My condolances regarding your relatives. Let me say that I do not in any way apologize for or condone the crimes of the Nazi state.

Having said this, in a historical themed event (even one that just plays lip-service to history like the DDay scenario game) someone has to play the "bad guys" of history. Doing so does not glorify or show acceptance for the ideals or crimes of the Nazi state. In such events small details like uniform insignia add much to the "flavor". As I pointed out on another forum, EVERY German fighting man in all four branches of the military wore a swastika and banning them simply offends the eye of the historian.

Why will I play on the German side at the DDay game? Primarily because I'm a WW2 reenactor and already have much of the equipment and uniform items I will need. It's not a political statement.

having said this, perhaps the ban should be on "non-historical usage" of Nazi iconography. Even I would be irritated to see someone attending the event wearing a Party armband or t-shirt bearing a swastika.

Oldsoldier----Minor point: there were 38 Waffen SS units of (nominally at least as some never reached full strength) division size. Of these 7 were panzer divisions. More to the point of this thread, over a dozen Waffen SS units of at least battalion strength fought at Normandy between June and August 1944. It should also be noted there is a HUGE difference between the Waffen SS, more or less just elite military units, and the para-military forces that carried out the "final solution" and other major crimes of the Nazi State.

"Trench Raider"
WW2 buff

[b0ned0me]

One of the reasons the whole WW2 german renactment thing is popular is because the uniforms were so damn cool. The 'iconography' is just that - they introduced the crosses, runes, eagles, daggers etc. for visual appeal and psychological effect. Most allied uniforms either look like something out of a WW1 museum or a clearance lot from a khaki factory. Same thing with Dart Vader, Imperial Stormtroopers etc.

I'm Norwegian - my uncle ended up as a slave labourer building electricity dams in the arctic for the duration and my dad and grandparents didn't exactly have a fun time either, but I have no problems with people dressing up in the gear (I suspect my uncle might feel differently).

It's when they start taking the politics and behaviour on board as well that I feel an urgent need to supress their freedom of speech with a 12-gauge, which actually makes me a fascist too. Life is full of contradictions...:confused:

[LittMag]

I must disagree, granted it's just a costume, but how many people know someone or were personally affected by the Nazis. I understand not every Nazi were the one's who ran the camps etc etc. BUT they did support a regime which strived to erradicated essentially everyone who was not like them. By wearing their logos, icons it *seems* as though you are supporting them. There are many many people who are offended by the sight of these logos, the attrocities committed and associated by these logos are very real and recent. IMO this is hardly taking PC too far.

[SlartyBartFast]

Personally, I have no problem with re-enactments. Because in the re-enactment the outcome is the same as the original. A re-enactment will honor those that perished in the real event by being as accurate as possible. A re-enactment will teach those participating and those watching the lessons to be learned from the original events.

Paintball scenarios are not re-enactments. They are making true, nasty periods of history into fun games.

I think when the ONLY reason to do something is for the FUN of it, you shouldn't be calling it a re-enactment and it shouldn't borrow from periods of history where real men and women really died and suffered.

Like I asked in my first post WHAT does the DDay name bring to the paintball experience that isn't conveyed with red vs. blue? If you can name something, then what does paintball bring to the event to honor the original?

True re-enactment should follow and honor the original. Not just steal the names and places for the hell of it.

Paintball does not deserve the right to appropriate history for the sake of amusement. Paintball does not live up to any of the standards above.

[oldsoldier]

No offense, but, if you feel it is too touchy a subject, they should not do it at all. Again, the Germans werent the only ones who commited atrocities; they were defeated, and it was brought to light. The Russians were FAR crueller to their own people...look at the siege of stalingrad. The Russians sent human waves of soldiers into a maelstrom of withering machine gun fire...all without weapons! The idea was that they would combat the germans hand to hand, and steal theirs. Does that sound sane? Again, I am not saying that what went on there was right; far from it. However, I dont believe the symbols, and the folks that wear them at reenactments, personally embody the Nazi "final solution" ideas. Granted, there may be a few cases of people who agreed with Hitler's ideals, but, for the most part, most of them are there for the reenactment. Not to spread nazi-ism. The whole PC thing is beginning to look like McCarthyism...a witch hunt for something that doesnt exist.
Trenchraider; they started off with only 4 SS divisions. They were later expanded, as more people were needed. They were of a lesser wuality of soldiers; but they preserved the mythical stature of an SS soldier. I am aware that, in the end, there were 20-something divisions. The divisions got smaller, more like regimental strength, as the war went on. It looked better to say " I am sending in 5 divisions", than saying "here's a couple of regiments". On paper, it looks like a larger force than it actually is.
And, the SS divisions kept splitting up; especially when they began allowing "non purebloods" into the ranks. The older SS commanders didnt want these troops, so, they were formed into separate divisions. There were at least 3 Polish divisions, an Italian one (maybe two), and numerous "indigeneous" ones, thats all I can think of off the top of my head. BTW...good to see someone else understands world history!!

[Tron]

I like how you are using people who are effected by it as an excuse not do to it. Because I really doubt your grandmother is going to show up and play.

[Trench_Riader]

Littmag--- That argument doesn't hold much water. For example, my great great grandfather lost lost his leg at Atlanta serving under Hood. (That would be the American "Civil War" for those who don't know) I, like many other people, take many of the issues the war was fought over (ie. State's Right, Smaller Federal goverment ETC) quite seriously. However I'm not offended by the sight of a blue uniform! In fact I used to wear that uniform in "Civil War" reenactments.

Time lessens the bite of the injustices of that war...it will eventually be the same with WW2.

Oldsoldier---

All sides were guilty of atrocities. The US 42nd Infantry division massacred over 100 Waffen SS troops in an incident during the drive into Germany. Is the sight of the 42's divisional patch offensive to you?

And actually they started off with a single regiment of Waffen SS troops. This was later expanded into the 1st SS panzer Division "LAH". And I don't think their status was "mythical" at all. Granted, the foreign-raised units and many of the later numbered units (which you are correct in stating never reached divisional size, but WERE numbered 1-38 rather than the "20 somthing" you claim). However many of the lower numbered German raised divisions (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th, 12th for example) had a record second to none. Good soldiers in a bad cause if you will...

And thanks for the complement....

"Trench Raider"

[AutomagRT1483]

I think that they should not have gotten rid of the SS and the Swastica symbols. Only the most fanatical germans were nazis and only a few ss brigades were nazis as well. My great uncle was one of the fanaticals, he was a Field Marshall in the Waffen SS. He was a very bad guy and i don't relate to him at all. But, it is their choice to get rid of the symbols and thats not going to stop me from going and having some good ole fun! :D

[AutomagRT1483]

Trench_Raider,
I totally agree with you.

[Trench_Riader]

AutomagRT1483--You say they should ban the iconography yet you say you totally agree with me? ;) heh, which is it?

But you are correct. It's a privately owned site and they are free to set whatever rules they want....but it doesn't mean I can't gripe about what I consider to be a foolish move.

Cheers,
"Trench Raider"

[AutomagRT1483]

I didn't really mean to say to ban it, its just that its their right as a privately owned facilty to ban it. If I were in their shoes I wouldn't have banned either one.

[Trench_Riader]

oops...I miseread your post. Disregard.

Thanks,
"Trench Raider"

[Creative Mayhem]

This is just the opion of someone who knows people on both sides, but I am of German decent, and I do not condone the actions of my ancestors. As a matter of fact my grandfather fought against the Nazis in WWII. I have friends whose fathers actually served the Nazis. Who's right and who's wrong? Whether it started as a differance in ideology, or just the ravings of a madman that went too far, I really don't know, I wasn't there. What I do know is war is hell from both sides of the line. I think this reenactment, is in some way, reminding us of what it could have been like. People will always be against such things, just as people will always be against roll playing in video games, or the reliving of these and other terrible events in the movies. Again I say, who's right and who's wrong?

All we can do is hope and pray the such attrocities will never happen again.


C Mayhem

[Trench_Riader]

All we can do is hope and pray the such attrocities will never happen again.


Amen.

However, human nature being what it is, somehow I don't feel confident....

"Trench Raider"

[Webmaster]

You see, I went and did a bit of research after my post. I wanted to see how large the german re-enactors crowd was - and what was their motivation.

All of them almost immediately post up a warning that they are not white-supremecist - and do not condone or agree to the ideals of the nazi party. All of them point out how the average german soilder was fighting for his country - and how many of them were often decieved by utopia like ideals in order to bring thier country up from a horrible depression in the 30's.

I also noted a distict air of professionalism. They were VERY picky on where they got thier replica uniforms, and wanted to be sure that everything - from facial hair to eye glasses were historically accurate.

I generally support such endevores - as the troups I have seen who have put such efforts in re-eneacting history do a very good job of it. They do provide a good, realistic simulation of what went on all those years ago. For people who experiance them at sactioned events - its a great lesson in living history.

I still cant see why one would want to play german - but I suppose there is a sort of rush playing the "bad guy". I also agree the uniforms are sharp. The Nazis were absolute masters of propaganda and creating a grand image for thier third reich.

I suppose my statment is - that an event like D-Day - wounldnt really have a place for these re-enactors. Re-enactors strive for historical accuracy, and present themselves in a professional manner. However - I dont think a paintball game is really a professional venue for them. For every "real" re-enactor you would have 3 bubba smiths out there with inaccurate costumes. This would lead to actually being counter productive to what re-enactors try to achieve (to educate the public).

Perhaps of there was an "offical" US and German camp where actual re-enactors were seen milling about - this could serve as a proper venue. But as for re-enactors playing a game dressed in full garb - it just seem to go against what re-enacting is all about.

D-Day IS just a game. Yes it SORT OF gives you an appreciation of the real event - but it is still just a game. It is by no means a professional re-eneactment and thus shouldnt be considered an event where serious re-enactors would be expected to particitpate.

So, Id get in your camo and just go have a fun time, and leave the runes etc for an event more worthy of them.

PS - Yes the russians and the japanesse, and even the brits and americans were all guilty of war attrocities. While the wehrmacht was a fine honed killing machine, it at least played by some rules of civility. The russians routinely used unarmed prisoner as mine sweepers. Stalin was also very intolorent of failure and didnt allow his troops to ever retreat. Thier ill preparedness at times left these soilders fighting with no weapons. The japannesse were fanatical in their devotion to thier emporer - and would fight to the last man and refused to surrender. They were also noted for being cruel to the POWs they captured.

War isnt fun kids, no matter how slick hollywood makes it. If you have a vet in your family who has seen combat - odds are they wont want to talk about details. And some people cant ever put those events behind them.

[Fred]

Wow, longwinded thread.

I, personally, don't want to see swastikas on the field.

My grandparents were German, living in Poland and Yugoslavia respectively, and some of my great uncles were in the German army. My grandpa wasn't, since he was too young (even at the end of the war).

It should be pointed out, that even if the Nazis were in control, the vast majority of Germans were NOT Nazis, and an even smaller fraction followed Hitlers schemes. I know for a fact at least two of my great uncles were in the SS Panzerr divisions, why? because that's where they were assigned when they were conscripted.

Horrible things happened to many people on account of the Nazis, there is no denying it.


on a side note, I'd love to see a movie about what happened to the German families like mine when the Russians took over so much of eastern europe... my family's story is even more dramatic than a lot of stuff out of Schindler's list (uncles were captured by Russians, escaped, family was stuck in a labor camp, managed to escape, trekked across germany to the Americans to surrender, were sent back to the russians...), and my mom and I are in the process of getting the entire oral history from all of our surviving relatives that lived through that time period.

---Fred

[Webmaster]

Fred,

I think thats a great idea.

My wife gets rather upset that nearly every hollywood movie centers on the jews and thier plight. While she has nothing against them - she gets upset that no one wants to tell the tales of poles, who were rounded up and sent to camps too - jewish or not. As well as people from nearly every other country who was invaded. People were rounded up and killed or forced into labor camps. Many christains were also killed, catholics and protestants. While its understandable that someone like Spielberg would want to tell a tale centered around jews, we need a couple movies to remind people that it wast just the jews that suffered -but people from many nations, religions, and creeds.

[Rooster]

I still cant see why one would want to play german - but I suppose there is a sort of rush playing the "bad guy". I also agree the uniforms are sharp. The Nazis were absolute masters of propaganda and creating a grand image for thier third reich.

Its kind of hard to have a good re-enactment if no one is willing to play the other side.

[Tack]

OK Guys, I just got a reply to an email I sent to Bill Bailey from Bailey's Battlefield in Missouri. If you all don't know him he is affiliated with Paint Games Plus and has played one of the high ranking Germans at D-Day for several years. I asked him right out about this rumor. He stated that there will be no large flags or arm bands with nazi symbols on them but any ruins, pins, or small uniform items are still allowed. Also, the Iron and Maltese crosses are allowed, just no big swastika’s .

Hope this helps everyone out and calms everyone down.

As for my opinion, I am all for realistic uniforms for the historical side of it. I minored in military history in college and even though these events are no where near the caliber of a major re-enactment, they still bear some decent historical value. It doesn’t have to be a 100% perfect set up to be considered a reenactment. The historical value of the game alone when it comes to people who don’t know much about it is enough to many players to bring out the uniforms, and play the parts. Many of the players I saw last year were young kids. Many didn't even know when, where, or why D-Day was fought, they just thought the German uniforms were cool, and came to have a good time. At the end of the event, many of these kids were enlightened about the actual D-Day by watching, listening and asking questions about the event. As for me, I have a hard time fitting into many of the uniforms that are out there for sale, and the ones I do find are so expensive that I would rather not get into that type of collection, However if I was to play in a modern day military scenario game, I would probably be wearing my BDU’s, and LBE’s with the rest of the re-enactors.

[oldsoldier]

Webby, good post. I think that if it gets kids to ask about it, it serves the purpose. I was actually surprised when I asked some coworkers two questions; one, what year did declare war in WWII, and two; what was the date of D-day. Some had no idea of the date of D-day, and one got the declaration correct. I have to say I was mildly surprised at this.
Also, kudos to you for the research on reenactors. I think in it a common misconception (gee, we all know about those, dont we?) that people who dress as Wermacht, or whatever, and wear the insignia are "automatically" considered Nazis. These folks, for the most part, are very educated when it comes to WWII. This applies, at least in my experience, to any reenactor. I learned alot of Civil War history just by going to a couple of reenactments and asking some questions.
As an aside, there is a guy whom I know who has one of 2 shirts in existence that Hitler wore. He also has complete uniforms, diaries, and papers of some very high-ranking Nazi party leaders. This guy knows damn near everything about the whole German struggle from the end of WWI up to their final defeat. Is he a Nazi? Not by any length. I think he, like you pointed out, is attracted to the fact that the uniforms were sharp,the history is intriguing, and collecting Nazi memorabilia is an interesting (albeit EXPENSIVE) hobby. Anyway, thanks for putting the subject to rest, and I am glad that the question was clarified. I wholeheartedly agree that prominent flags and armbands shouldnt be allowed; after all, that was the political party that wore them, not the grunts in the field.
One more thing, then I'll shut up. The reason the Japanese were cruel to their prisoners was because they didnt see us as soldiers; we were invaders, and, therefore they felt we didnt deserve to be treated as soldiers. They basically classified us as subhuman. Of course, we did the same thing to them, only the ones we did it to were American citizens...
Well, thanks all for the history! I hope someone reading these posts learned something.

[ogre55]

After reading this thread, I just have a few comments. To equate actions of allied soldiers to the actions of Axis NATIONS is ridiculous. There were atrocities committed on the parts of the allies. But these were committed by individual soldiers or units, these were not the policies of the Allies as Nation/States. In contrast the policy of the Germans was called Final Solution and we all know what they were talking about. The stated policies of the Japanese were somewhat less barbaric, simple conquest, but their actions and methods, like the Rape of Nanking and mass subjegation and mistreatement of the Chinese and the Koreans was no less awful.

Let's not play that age old PC game of moral relativism. Especcially on a thread that seems to be anti-PC.

As for the policy of the proprietors of the D-Day event, I don't agree. In the context of a re-enactment of the D-Day invasion why not allow those who enjoy war reeantments to participate to the fullest.

For the person who stated that the swastika is a symbol that has been used by many different cultures for many years, yes it has. The Buhhdists (sp) use it, and that is possibly the most peaceful of all religeons/ideaologies. However the tilted black swastika, in a white circle, on a red background only means one thing. It's all a matter of context.

Webby: As for a film of the German soldier's struggle in WWII, may I suggest you hunt up the film Stalingrad. It's a German film with Hollywood production values and an excellant and honest portayal of what the Germans faced, both from the Russians and from their own leaders.

For a portrayal of the other side, the Russians, see Enemy at the Gates. While the film focuses on the exploits of Russian sniper Vasilly Zaitsev the opening sequence is an excellant portrayal of the what the Russian soldiers faced from the Germans and their own leaders.

Ogre

[Webmaster]

ogre55 - Im more interested in a film about the struggles of civilian resistence and clandestine operations carried out by underground movements in countries occupied by the Germans.

There are plenty of war documentaries to show the struggles of the allies, russians, and germans through the various battles.

[oldsoldier]

webby, look into foreign films. There werent really alot of resistence movements...they were relatively small, and designed to disrupt the daily life of the occupiers.
I read a story, about occupied France, about a group of artists that regularly put on anti-German plays above a bar! The Nazis never found out about it! Actually, now that I think about it, that may have been a movie and not a book.
but as far as resistence went, other than blowing railroads and the occasional driveby, it was mostly intelligence gathering and information dissemintation. Check out books about the OSS and their Brit counterparts (I forgot5 the name). These may help point you in the right direction. And look at the Rat Patrol in Africa...these Brits really were a thorn in Germany's side! Some of the stuff those folks pulled off was just amazing!

[Doobie]

I have played the last two D-Day games in OK and enjoyed myself a lot! This is the thing...there were some people that took the german thing a little too far. It was obvious they were racits that were exploiting the game in order to wear there colors. It left a small but still bad taste in my mouth afterwards. Realize I said SOME not all. It was easy to tell the re-enactors from the racits. The fact that this thread is even here suggests that something is wrong with allowing them. I had a hard time sitting in front of my tent as an ATV came screaming by with a guy yellin "Heil Hitler" and waving a large Swastika around. I am an american soldier who plays this game for fun and to pay tribute to my great uncle. It will still be fun without the Swastika. If it is not...maybe you need to re-evaluate why you play the event.
My 2cents...let the flaming comence.;)

[oldsoldier]

Nah doobie, youre right. Some idiots just take it too far. Unfortunately, it seems its the younger crowd. Most dont even understand where the whole Nazi Party idea originated.



EDIT: by most people i meant the followers of that ideology.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Webmaster
ogre55 - Im more interested in a film about the struggles of civilian resistence and clandestine operations carried out by underground movements in countries occupied by the Germans.

I don't know about movies, but there are more than a few books on the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto. I am sure there are some films about the exploits of the French Resistance under the Vichy Regime.

Ogre

[ogre55]

Originally posted by oldsoldier
[B]but as far as resistence went, other than blowing railroads and the occasional driveby, it was mostly intelligence gathering and information dissemintation.


Not so. Several resistance movements in occupied western european countries, France, Belguim et. al. worked directly with American (OSS) and British (called MI-6 now and possibly in WWII as well) clandestine forces to actively sabotage German operations and communications. They also carreid out assassinations.

It is estimated that, in coordination with allied agents, these resistance movements cost the Germans several divisions of men during the Germans defense of the D-Day beaches by delaying them with sabatoge tactics. Also, prior to the Allied invasion of Sicily, Italian resistance fighters performed simialar operation against the Germans.

Ogre

[oldsoldier]

True, but mostly through disruption of railroads and sending info. There were assasinations and killings, but most of it was true clandestine work. They were small units, that were supported by US and Britain (they wrent MI6 at the time, and I'll be damned if I can remember their designation). I didnt mean that they didnt play a big role in the liberation and/or disruption of entire units. What i meant was that, for the most part, they were "passive" units, rather than "active" ones. The main, exception to this, as you pointed out, was mainly in Northern France, where the French actually conducted wet ops. There and Belgium was where the main organizations existed; to a smaller degree, also, again like you pointed out, in Italy and elsewhere. More people "claimed" they were part of the resistance after France was liberated than actually were. It was kinda "in vogue" to be seen as a resistance fighter...alot made false claims.


A good book, from the German soldiers view, is "The Forgotten Soldier". It chronicles one boy's drafting into the wermacht, all the way to the end of the war and his trip home. There is another one written from a Russian's view...but I cant find it. :mad: When I do, I'll post that too. Both of them give a very different view of what most people perceive the "average" German or Russian soldier went through.
One other note; although "Enemy at the Gates" was a good movie, the end sucked. Vasiliy's g/f was lead to beleive he had died; he stepped on a mine and lost a foot, and was in hospital for something like 6 months. She didnt know he was alive till years later. There was a book called the Dual of Stalingrad, or maybe Battle of stalingrad...but it was about him. A very good read.

[ogre55]

Doobie:

You don't need a scenerio game to bring out these kinds of morons. A few years ago a bunch of knuckleheads came to walk-on game in NJ dressed in full SS regalia. Needless to say they were not the most loved people on that field. I think everyone on the opposing team spent the day hunting these dimwits. Hell, I think their own teammates were less than excited to help.

Ogre

[darklord]

Real thorough posts, guys, this thread was an interesting read. Now to add my $0.02, I have to say, since it's a scenario game taking place during WW2, it's appropriate to wear German medals and whatnot of the time... although I think donning a swatstika is a little too much. But I will say this much... if I see anyone on a field with a swatstika outside of a WW2 scenario game.... I will probably have to do something rather harsh, not in favor of them. :mad:

[ogre55]

As a caveat to the above post, while it did happen, it only happened once to me, and this is the only time I have ever heard of this happening to anyone. I guess these guys learned their lesson.

Ogre