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View Full Version : The Player or the Gun?????



Linkin
08-24-2001, 08:23 PM
So, what do you guys think?
Which matters more, the Player or the gun?

I'll use the common example: Give a spyder to a pro, and give an angel to a newbie. who will win? The Pro (unless the newbie has some stroke of luck)

Now, what if you took a pro player, duplicated him, and gave one a spyder and one an angel. Which one would win? Probably the one with the angel.

What do yall think?
Give a reason for your answer.

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I was the proud owner of a Tippmann. Then I woke up from the nightmare and became the Proud owner of a MiniMag.
(Dont get me wrong, Tippmann's are awesome. I could hammer my old one at 10 or 11 bps)

"I cannot take this anymore! Saying everything I said before."-Linkin Park

"Give me an inch, I'll give you a bruise."-Andy Kopcok; Team Image

[This message has been edited by Linkin (edited 08-25-2001).]

FeelTheRT
08-24-2001, 08:57 PM
well, it really depends. I think it's the player that's more important but the gun does play a role in the player's preformance.

Load SM5
08-24-2001, 09:03 PM
It must be the shoes.....

Player.

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Black vert.feed E-mag
68/4500 Dynaflow
12" Freak

MajorDamage
08-24-2001, 10:18 PM
It depends. Although this guy JD at my feild, he plays with a pump against electros and everything and from what I hear, he is awesome. He used to use a Palmer gun (I think he also used to be on Team Palmerized's B team.) but he traded it for some pump(Cant remember what kind it is.) and is supposedly a great player. So it kinda differs.

ENDO!

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keebler
08-25-2001, 01:37 PM
a little of both. alot of it is the player, but the person who can spray the most paint has an advantage.

Monsta
08-25-2001, 02:34 PM
GUN

shartley
08-25-2001, 02:36 PM
It is the ELVES!

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

Xzion
08-25-2001, 04:02 PM
Both: A good player can be as good as he/she can be with a lower end marker, the lower performance will lower the players overall performance, but if you give him/her a angel or E-Mag the performance of the gun will probably max out the players current performacne potential. that make sence to anyone other than me? lol http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

keebler
08-25-2001, 05:37 PM
yeah it is alot of the gun. you cant expect gordon to win nascar races using a car that only goes 80.

shartley
08-25-2001, 06:05 PM
keebler:
Interesting concept. However, may I pose a couple additional questions?

How many Nascar Cars only go 80?

Aren't Nascar Cars set up within set guidelines and regulations?

And wouldn't this make them pretty much the same cars? And that being the case any car alone on the track on any given day could reach the same speeds?

The reason each car comes in at different speeds while qualifying has to do with tires used, heat of the track, heat of the outside air, and many other factors. The same ones that help or hurt in the actual race.

However, for sake of argument we will say that the fastest car at qualifying will win the race. Then why have the race?

It is because all the cars are about the same, and the DRIVERS (and their crews) make them win the race, not just the speed of the car. There is much more to a NASCAR race than driving fast.... and some of that involves NOT driving fast. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif

You need more than good equipment. You need good equipment being used by good operators and crews.

But this analogy does not work well in Paintball, because I am sure most of us have seen great players using less than great equipment and be very effective. But on the other hand, we have seen great equipment in the hands of poor players and... well you know.

So, I guess I am saying that a good player will be pretty good no matter what he is using, but a bad player will still be bad with a good marker. But a good player with good equipment is a GREAT match.

But how NASCAR fits into the equation... It simply doesn't. And that is because the two sports and their equipment are just so different. You can not take a good driver with a poor car and have him win, but in paintball you CAN. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

Just food for though. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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“The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.”

mykroft
08-25-2001, 07:09 PM
It's defiitely the player. The gun give a set performance envelope, it is up to the player to push the edge of the envelope. Frankly, a well tuned Spyder in good hands is very little of a handicap against an Angel, while in bushball for example, that top player with a phantom will probably massacre the guy with the Angel, taking something like a pgp or a phantom into play gives you alot of movement options that 10lbs worth of gun doesn't allow. It's all about how you use the gear you have. and with a bit of knowledge, you can give something like a spyder just about the performance of an Angel or E-Mag, but not the reliability.

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Mykroft Holmes IV
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My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.

VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA,14" JnJ Ceramic, AGD Intelliframe Blade, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'

mag wannabe
08-25-2001, 07:56 PM
It is my opinion that eather the pro with the angel or the pro with the spyder would have an equal chance of winning, (especially if we are talking about woodsball). I think that the gun is irrelevant to the outcome of a match as long as it shoots straight (which my spyder does.) The real battle of paintball is in the mind. its all about who gets the jump on who and who has better aim. if a spyder is used, I'm betting the victem has one splat on him, the angel would leave 3-6. So what? he's out none the less. the whole game is about getting that one shot in, the rest are irrelevent. just my opinion tho. feel free to argue, mebe I am just in spyder sux denial (I love my spyder).
-perry

seekandestroy
08-25-2001, 09:20 PM
i think the gun plays a major part in the psychology of the player if you give your average joe a rental tippman hes going to play his average game however if you give him an angel he'll be more confident and play more aggressively

zvanut
08-25-2001, 09:56 PM
well it is the player, the gun helps, but then a whole new phyloysiphy(sp) comes into the play. the style of the player. here r a few examples.

1. Say 2 pros r playin 1 on 1 who r back players. For them the game will be more dependent on how much paint they can put out. In that situation the gun really is somewhat important, where as if they r equal in skill, in that situation u would think the gun would win out.

2. 2 pros again, but they r upfront players. There the skill is the determining factor, except in certain situations.

i have a few more maybe i will type later.

~Ryan~

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My Mag can beat your spyder w/ no paint.~~~me

Dont worry if it wasnt for losers like u, There couldnt be winners like me.~~~me

My mag is my mag, not yours, so go get your own one and be happy like me. ~me

[This message has been edited by zvanut (edited 08-25-2001).]

emaggot4life
08-25-2001, 11:10 PM
I will put my vote on the player. I would rather take an experianced player with a phantom on my team. I really dont think the type of marker is as big of a factor as the skill of the person holding it. I have seen a guy that could nail a 6" target from 40'-50' almost every shot with his ( no flames) spyder. But he could not hit the side of a barn if he was standing in it with my cocker.

zvanut
08-25-2001, 11:18 PM
oh and i also think when u have a good player with a not so decent gun, the gun will limit the player.

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My Mag can beat your spyder w/ no paint.~~~me

Dont worry if it wasnt for losers like u, There couldnt be winners like me.~~~me

My mag is my mag, not yours, so go get your own one and be happy like me. ~me

slayer
08-26-2001, 12:07 PM
It 80% the player. Once you get to a good reliable, and tight gun that shoots 6 bps then the gun stops mattering. Everyone can shoot alot but If you can't hit anything then it doesn't really matter. One thing, a really good electro trigger has greatly boosted my rapid fire accuracy due to me not having to make such hard movements that I did with a mechanical trigger. Call me a spazz, but when just my trigger finger spazzes on an electro trigger the gun doesn't move off target very much.

spyderkiller
08-26-2001, 07:49 PM
Isn't it amazing how often you'll find this topic throughout AO?? Anyways, i agree with shartley about the elves!

Linkin
08-26-2001, 08:16 PM
Well, my vote is for the........ Magical Lepruchans of the Hyperball field! They pop out o thier little pipes and spray you with thier little microcockers!

Sorry, im just tired. I vote for 70% player, 20% Gun and 10% Magical Leprachans of the Hyperball Field (luck).

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"Shut up when I'm talk'n to you!" -Linkin Park

"Give me an inch, I'll give you a bruise." -Andy Kopcok; Team Image

[This message has been edited by Linkin (edited 08-26-2001).]

Bub3814
08-26-2001, 08:30 PM
80% player and 20% gun...
I played 4 years with just pumps against every semi and electro...
always did well...
but with my mag i do better http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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~Bub~

"It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."
-Dizzy Dean

PsychoMag
08-26-2001, 09:49 PM
I think it is the player, cuz I can rock in the woods with my RT, or my spyder, or a tipp, or a phantom...if the gun shoots consistent, the seassoned player will compensate for the flaws in order to win, such as I do.



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PsychoMag..."Dogger"
RTP00440, Benchmark Offset Adj. HPA Cradle, Pro-Connect, 12"AA, 12"DYE SS, 12"Boomie, 14"JJ Ceramic, 68/4500 NitroDuck Tuffy, 12Revvie, Warp.
Team ArchAngels
www.angelfire.com/extreme2/archangels"
No Skill, No Talent, All Heart" ~ Oh Pawlak

AGDRules
08-26-2001, 09:55 PM
Well I think its most definatly the player Unless the player is shooting a Emag then its the gun lol

TheBigGuy
08-26-2001, 10:14 PM
My vote: Player

Arturus
08-26-2001, 11:38 PM
Player.

Thanks Shartley for expanding on what Keebler said about a nascar driver and his '80 mile an hour' race car... http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'm getting lazier and lazier with each day. Too lazy to post up indepth debates. =p

Are guns (better or worse) a factor in the performance and style of a player; and have the ability to influence, even to a great extent the contents of a match? Yep. I don't deny that and I don't think anyone can.

Is it 'the' deciding factor in a game? Nope. No matter how many scenarios are offered, even the one where the 'better' player loses. The player(s) decide the final outcome of a match.

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RT Pro - Chrome Powerfeed Right
Armageddon 68/4500
KAPP Chrome Apoc Drop Forward
12 vt Revolution
Lapco Aluminum Autospirit 12"

hitmanng
08-26-2001, 11:43 PM
Well if the Spyder had a freak on it, he would win. http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif
Ok, the gun does not really matter much but I have play with a guy that plays with Am A and he always plays with a pump on his field for rec to even the score. I cannot even count the number of times he has said "If I was shooting a Semi, you would have been dead."
Next I think comfort with your gun is very important. I had a leak in my mag setup and needed to sling a lot of paint and I wanted a lighter gun for something at the latest scenario. I used my backup Pirahna with a small CO2 tank. It was lighter but could shoot just as fast. I couldn't hit anything though because I was not used to it. I switched back in 15 minutes. If you have a consistant gun that you are used to, they are almost going to get the same result. So it is the player, but having a decent gun is also a must.
Hitmanng

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Issha zetsumei -- The original "one shot, one kill"

-§on-
08-27-2001, 05:18 AM
Im not a PLAYER I just Crush a lot.-Big Pun

The Player

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Aim: TacticalJay
Email: TacticalJay8@adelphia.net
EMAG WITH:
Blue Warp Feed
Blue 12 Volt
68ci 3000psi Stub
Lapco Bigshot
12 inch Splashed red AA
Kapp DZII
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Scorch
08-27-2001, 09:47 AM
Its the player... but just in case I spend ALL my money on the best marker I can find. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

Some day soon (modular emag) it may be a 'Mag again.

Scorch

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I'm an artist. Please don't wipe my work until you show it to the ref. ;)
Team Gravity (http://www.geocities.com/gravitypbteam)
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2000Sabre
08-27-2001, 08:58 PM
It's the player. The guy that walks the field, knows the angles is going to be able to make the right moves to put himself in a position to make the winning shot. Having a reliable marker and knowing it's abilities and limitations doesn't hurt either.

Dude
08-27-2001, 11:07 PM
It is definately, without a doubt the player.

Ni cD
08-27-2001, 11:16 PM
Player, but the gun helps.

GotMag?
07-08-2004, 08:12 PM
the ninja will win :ninja:

hAppy
07-08-2004, 08:28 PM
So, what do you guys think?
Which matters more, the Player or the gun?

I'll use the common example: Give a spyder to a pro, and give an angel to a newbie. who will win? The Pro (unless the newbie has some stroke of luck)

Now, what if you took a pro player, duplicated him, and gave one a spyder and one an angel. Which one would win? Probably the one with the angel.

What do yall think?
Give a reason for your answer.


1st thigns first, you can make a sig... rather than copy n paste the same thing after each post...

The gun just cannot make the player, it's physically impossible. The gun can only give you an edge.

ryanshep
07-08-2004, 08:32 PM
The gun just cannot make the player, it's physically impossible. The gun can only give you an edge.


Thats good, well said

MagAl
07-08-2004, 09:31 PM
80% player and 20% gun...
I played 4 years with just pumps against every semi and electro...
always did well...
but with my mag i do better

I agree with Bub, you can give a newp(layer, I dont like the word noob :cry: harsh word that brings me back to my earlier days) a better marker which gives the player an advantage rof as well as reliability wise( ever have a lo-end marker just un-cock entirely after firing? :mad: )

But as in pitching theres a whole lot more then being able to throw fast (placement/control etc.)

BeaverEater
07-08-2004, 09:35 PM
I think it is 75% the player and 25% the gun. I have a phantom and I've beat people 1v1 with shockers and such. The gun definately helps but if you cant use it whats the point of it.

scott

hAppy
07-08-2004, 09:38 PM
Ok... pump vs semi is a totally different story guys. Clearly it will take ALOT of skill to go pump against semi. But semi vs pump is just too easy on its own.

If it were pump vs pump, it's 100% player.
If it were semi vs semi, it's 100% the gun... NOT still 100% the player.

coolcatpete
07-08-2004, 09:46 PM
It is most deffinaltely the player. In that situation you gave I think that it would be close but the guy with the angel would win. The gun just makes it easier to make the moves you want, so it just lets you play to your full potential. It is like in baseball if you use a bad $10 wood bat you are not going to hit as well as you would with a $400 metal bat. Better eqipment just allows you to play up to your full potential.
Pete

BeaverEater
07-08-2004, 09:54 PM
I think coolcatpete is right. If you have a better gun it will also convince you to make better moves cause face it, your gonna feel pretty bad when the guy across the field is shooting twice as fast as you are. I think that the gun needs to evolve along with the players skill. The player needs to make the gun "shine" and vise versa.

scott

coolcatpete
07-08-2004, 09:56 PM
I think coolcatpete is right. If you have a better gun it will also convince you to make better moves cause face it, your gonna feel pretty bad when the guy across the field is shooting twice as fast as you are. I think that the gun needs to evolve along with the players skill. The player needs to make the gun "shine" and vise versa.

scott
Yep the better you get, the better gun you get. A nob will play no better with the angel that the spyder but the pro will.
Pete

jesseyo13
07-08-2004, 10:04 PM
I think it works both ways. If you give a new player a high end gun they will feel more confident and play harder. If you give a good player a spyder he will still be a threat. So it really comes down to exsperience and personal skill.

afultz075
07-08-2004, 10:30 PM
I think it's mostly the player. Sure, it's nice to have a good electro like a Shocker or an Emag and know you have firepower if you need it, but Spyders and Tippys shoot just as far and can shoot just as accurate.

I think great equipment that shoots 18 bps can develop some bad habits in newer players as well. I've seen kids with these types of guns just stay in one spot and spray paint mindlessly the whole game, they pretty much become useless members of your team.

I'd sooner have the guy that's been playing for 15 years with a classic mag on my team than the kid whose been playing for 2 months with the Angel his parents bought him.