WAS at it again...

[gatorchris]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156668

I have to get on a plane shortly, I dont have time to do the research but Im sure some of you may even have some of the older threads bookmarked :D I think hes changing his tune again, in the above thread hes saying that the BIP does nothing and its the ram delay that fixes halo chop. I could swear in some of the early on threads that BIP was his answer, set at 0 chop, set at 1 no chop or something like that. Hate to see him do this over and over again, I guess he thinks no one is watching?

[einhander619]

thank god and baby jesus I don't have an intimidator, cuz if Idid, it would have one of those in it, and I'd be in alot of trouble!

[JEDI]

Why can't you people let the WAS issue go? The guy is not trying to take over the world with false claims. He's a very smart guy trying to make it in the paintball industry. He has some very innovative ideas, and is doing his best to put out a decent product. Stop hanging on his every word trying to trip him up. He's not trying to force some bogus BALL CHOPPING religion down anyone's throat. If you dont like his products DON'T BUY THEM.

Get a life and make an attempt to better the paintball community in other ways than posting from the safety of your home. I've used a WAS Timmy, and it was that board alone that might have just sold me on a GZ as my next gun.

Have we all forgotten about the first Super Bolt? "Ooo, hold you tounge," - "That's AGD you're talking about."

No one gets it right the first time. How long did it take Tom to come up with Level 10, and it still comes with many parts to work out the bugs.

Give the guy a break. The hypocracy around here is making me sick.

[shartley]

Originally posted by JEDI
Why can't you people let the WAS issue go? The guy is not trying to take over the world with false claims. He's a very smart guy trying to make it in the paintball industry. He has some very innovative ideas, and is doing his best to put out a decent product. Stop hanging on his every word trying to trip him up. He's not trying to force some bogus BALL CHOPPING religion down anyone's throat. If you dont like his products DON'T BUY THEM.

Get a life and make an attempt to better the paintball community in other ways than posting from the safety of your home. I've used a WAS Timmy, and it was that board alone that might have just sold me on a GZ as my next gun.

Have we all forgotten about the first Super Bolt? "Ooo, hold you tounge," - "That's AGD you're talking about."

No one gets it right the first time. How long did it take Tom to come up with Level 10, and it still comes with many parts to work out the bugs.

Give the guy a break. The hypocracy around here is making me sick.
There is a difference between a product failing and false advertising/hype. And if you remember correctly, quite a few of us DID comment on the Super Bolt being a flop…. No hypocrisy there…. Tom took his lumps on that one.

But I don’t recall Tom ever saying the Super Bolt had AI or any of the other things WAS uses to hype his products.

Also, noone is saying his products don’t work well…. they just don’t work like he SAYS they do, or why (for the most part). He also keeps getting caught contradicting himself and changing his story. Tom did not do that with his products… sorry. Next time you want to compare things I would suggest making sure they were similar to begin with.

[SyntaxError]

Originally posted by shartley

Also, noone is saying his products don’t work well…. they just don’t work like he SAYS they do

Now, I'm not one to badmouth AGD's products, but I do believe that Mr. Kaye's superbolt didn't work like he said it would. When I bought it I didnt remember him saying, "HEY! Added feature! The bolt sleeve breaks!", all I remember was "Drastically reduces ball breakage!" and all that. Even while it "worked" (ie. wasn't broken) it didn't perform like advertised. I see somewhat of a connection here.

Now, not to say that Tom isn't a great guy. I have nothing against AGD, I shoot mags, and I've been an AGD fan since I started playing, but I also don't like to hear everyone riding Mr. Drew at WAS for trying to do business like our beloved airgun CEO himself. I mean, originally his claims against the Level 10 system were not appropriate, however I don't think members of AO should jump all over him for trying to sell his products, I mean look at the E-Matrix's ad campaign: "Most accurate marker out there!" I don't remember this whole deal about that! Give WAS a break guys, and unless he comes here and says all his stuff, whether it be BS or not, leave him alone.

[shartley]

Originally posted by SyntaxError
Now, I'm not one to badmouth AGD's products, but I do believe that Mr. Kaye's superbolt didn't work like he said it would. When I bought it I didnt remember him saying, "HEY! Added feature! The bolt sleeve breaks!", all I remember was "Drastically reduces ball breakage!" and all that. Even while it "worked" (ie. wasn't broken) it didn't perform like advertised. I see somewhat of a connection here.

Now, not to say that Tom isn't a great guy. I have nothing against AGD, I shoot mags, and I've been an AGD fan since I started playing, but I also don't like to hear everyone riding Mr. Drew at WAS for trying to do business like our beloved airgun CEO himself. I mean, originally his claims against the Level 10 system were not appropriate, however I don't think members of AO should jump all over him for trying to sell his products, I mean look at the E-Matrix's ad campaign: "Most accurate marker out there!" I don't remember this whole deal about that! Give WAS a break guys, and unless he comes here and says all his stuff, whether it be BS or not, leave him alone.
I think you misunderstood me.... I did not mean WAS’ products don’t WORK, but HOW they work (as in what makes them do what they do) is not quite how Mr. Drew says it is. Make more sense now? ;)

And again, you missed my point about AGD. You both keep saying that Tom did not get jumped on because his Super Bolt broke…. HE DID. LOL He got a good many lumps out of that mess. AO did not sweep it under the carpet or act like it didn’t happen…. in spite of what the both of you seem to think, and keep saying.

Also, the super bolt DID work “technically” as AGD said it did, it just BROKE. And there is a difference. Tom did not state that the Super Bolt worked off of Artificial Intelligence and a Nuclear Power device. He did not lie about the technology that went into making it do what it does. The materials that it was made of failed….. get it now?

And for your claims that even when it did not break, it did not work as advertised… sorry, you need to do more research… it DID.

As for Jim Drew, he DID come to AO and say his stuff. :D But regardless, as a manufacturer of a product you had better expect folks to discuss it, as well as aspects about it, and discuss YOU if you put yourself in the spotlight. Jim Drew is by far not an innocent victim in all this. And if you do a search about him and his company here on AO you will see why.

It seems that folks can rip into each other here and that is just fine, but you can’t say anything “not nice” or “not complimenting” about anyone IN the Paintball Industry, no matter if it is true or not. Since when did making money off of paintball players and paintball companies make you also “safe” from discussion about you? Seems to me that it would go along with the job.

This is a paintball forum. We discuss various aspects of the sport and companies in the sport….. as well as prominent or visible people in it. And Jim Drew takes every chance he can to get “visible”….. again, he is far from being a victim in this.

[Miscue]

It was claimed to be a lighter bolt that lowered recoil... which it does.

The Superbolt never got past the trial/beta period... and was never a full production product... it didn't become one after it was shown to have problems.

AGD had everyone pull it off the shelves and offered discounts to people trading it in... which still stands.

And now we have L.10 and SuperboltII... so...

[FutureMagOwner]

i wonder if the super bolt worked if level 10 would have been made now later or ever.

[pito189]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
i wonder if the super bolt worked if level 10 would have been made now later or ever.

I think it would have, because even though the Superbolt was lighter, it still did not reduce chops to the extent at which LX does.

LX is a whole new bolt system while the the Superbolt was just lighter, and made of derlin.

[JEDI]

Listen, I'm not saying anyone is above getting criticized. And I'm not saying Tom should be burned at the stake, or didnt take his lumps. And NO, I dont think the superbolt and the WAS issue are the same. I'm just trying to compare the fact that mistakes are made.

I personally dont agree that people should have to pay to be part of beta/proto-type testing. Its a neccessary process, but its BS to be used as a guinea pig for something that may not work, AND have to pay for it.

If Tom wants us to be his research and developement, fine, but I hate paying for it. Here is my main issue right here Though. Its ignorance like this that pisses me off


thank god and baby jesus I don't have an intimidator, cuz if Idid, it would have one of those in it, and I'd be in alot of trouble!

I dont mind putting someone on the stand, but lets not bash them to the point that they don't want to return. Then we all lose out.

[JEDI]

AND!!!! Not to mention Paintball Kingdom, Bob long himself, and soon AKA Excaliburs, all consider the WAS board to be a very big improvement to the Intimidators. So something good must be going on here.

So you know what, einhander619, I hope an ignorant person such as yourself NEVER does own a Timmy, because it would give a bad name to an otherwise smart bunch of paintball players

[Mango]

Originally posted by JEDI

I personally dont agree that people should have to pay to be part of beta/proto-type testing. Its a neccessary process, but its BS to be used as a guinea pig for something that may not work, AND have to pay for it.


Uhh sorry dude, but I got a full refund for my broken Superbolt when I sent it back to AGD. So it dident cost me a dime. :eek:

[bofh]

Originally posted by JEDI
AND!!!! Not to mention Paintball Kingdom, Bob long himself, and soon AKA Excaliburs, all consider the WAS board to be a very big improvement to the Intimidators. So something good must be going on here.


JEDI, settle down, no one ever said that the WAS board is substandard in any way.

The WAS stuff is good, and Jim Drew is a very good programmer. The people vocal about him on this board dislike his style of promotion, myself included. Never have we said that his products aren't good. Never.

[JEDI]

What ever guys, you're reading only the parts of my posts you choose to hear. Yes, you got your money back for the broken bolt, but you still paid for it regardless of if it broke or not. Just like we all paid to be Beta testers for the Level 10 (a product which I am happy with). But if it should fail, will it be yet another thing we get refunded for? Why not have a set group of people test it for free? YA KNOW WHAT? WHO CARES, THIS IS NOT MY ISSUE. I'm happy with AGD.

Its unprovoked bashing that bothers me. What if a person completely unaware of the WAS situation, or of WAS products comes here and reads: "WAS is at it again." or even worse,



thank god and baby jesus I don't have an intimidator, cuz if Idid, it would have one of those in it, and I'd be in alot of trouble!

This just seems like an unfair assessment from people who dont have facts and research to back it up. I have no reason to stick up for WAS, but there is a difference between a REAL problem, and people searching for anything to dig their claws into.

Here's my main objective, that maybe some of you will agree on. Couldnt we just let this issue die until either a faulty product does come out, or something damaging is said. Most of you agree that the WAS stuff IS good, so whats the problem? Bogus claims are made every day, but most of us can see past them. Lets keep the issues here on AO focused and helpful, and not clutter the forum with Nit-picking and useless banter.

[bofh]

Originally posted by einhander619
thank god and baby jesus I don't have an intimidator, cuz if Idid, it would have one of those in it, and I'd be in alot of trouble!

Actually, I just no idea what he means by this.

I think he's saying that he'd buy a WAS board, because there is no other board to have in a Timmy, but then the board would cause him to be "in a lot of trouble."

What kind of trouble would it cause? Would he run up a large credit card bill from shooting so much paint? It's the only thing I can think of.

Has anybody said any bad things anywhere, about the WAS board?

[SyntaxError]

Ok, well I agree with Jedi in this case. You guys criticize WAS's stuff, you do! Look at your old posts about his original intimidator board, and how the emag just "smokes it in every category", or how it was claimed to be substandard. The truth is, it is a faster board than the stock timmy one! From the two intimidators I have shot, one with WAS, one with the stock board (i believe), the WAS setup seemed faster to me. From my standpoint, it did what it was supposed to.

Now as to the superbolt issue, Tom Kaye can be and was blamed for the substandard product that was the superbolt, but thats not the point here. The point is that the superbolt didn't work as advertised either. It simply did not. There are people on this board that can attest to the fact that my superbolt broke MORE paint than my stock bolt, to the point that even with a "technically" working superbolt, the breakage was so bad I was forced to remove it. I believe that it was advertised to "Break far less paint than the stock bolt!" In addition, the "less recoil" that I expected it to provide was marginal, it really wasnt a noticable amount. Talk about products not performing as advertised!

The only reason I am posting in this thread is to defend the fact that Jim Drew has not done anything bad, he hasn't spoken out against AGD's products. Even the claims about his own product are reasonable, and until I see one of you techie wizards prove all his stuff otherwise, I see nothing wrong with the advertising of his products. In addition, I don't see the reasoning for pouncing on him as soon as he suggested the use of his own product. What was he supposed to do? Tell them to stick with Bob Long's boards? He's gotta make his cash too.

Bringing me to my final point. I paid to be a beta tester of both the superbolt I and II, and was thoroughly pissed with the fact that I was really only refunded about 50% with the superbolt trade in for level 10 program. The adverse effects as a result of that POS, including losing twenty bucks plus the broken paint was terrible. At least Jim's product doesn't end up doing the opposite of what it should.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with WAS's claims. The product is very nice from what I can tell, and the only reason for brining up the Superbolt issue is to show how while AGD can put out a product that didn't live up to its claims, they didn't get jumped on for the LX stuff. Give this guy some breathing room, stop acting ignorant. Don't jump on the guy with statements like "WAS at it again!" and completely bash his products. How do you know they don't perform like he says he does? And whats your problem with his advertising? He's not insulting you is he? Well then don't bother the guy.

[magman007]

actually, in a past thread, jim spoke out against AO... And you know what? that really peaved me.. Wer all know jim is smoke and miriors... things he does, do not make sence, then he justifies them with an even stranger reason, his story has changed multipole times.... and we have even proven him wrong on the turbo rev... SO shut your little mouths, and get your facts straight before you tell us to get our facts straight

[shartley]

Originally posted by SyntaxError
Ok, well I agree with Jedi in this case. You guys criticize WAS's stuff, you do! Look at your old posts about his original intimidator board, and how the emag just "smokes it in every category", or how it was claimed to be substandard. The truth is, it is a faster board than the stock timmy one! From the two intimidators I have shot, one with WAS, one with the stock board (i believe), the WAS setup seemed faster to me. From my standpoint, it did what it was supposed to.

Now as to the superbolt issue, Tom Kaye can be and was blamed for the substandard product that was the superbolt, but thats not the point here. The point is that the superbolt didn't work as advertised either. It simply did not. There are people on this board that can attest to the fact that my superbolt broke MORE paint than my stock bolt, to the point that even with a "technically" working superbolt, the breakage was so bad I was forced to remove it. I believe that it was advertised to "Break far less paint than the stock bolt!" In addition, the "less recoil" that I expected it to provide was marginal, it really wasnt a noticable amount. Talk about products not performing as advertised!

The only reason I am posting in this thread is to defend the fact that Jim Drew has not done anything bad, he hasn't spoken out against AGD's products. Even the claims about his own product are reasonable, and until I see one of you techie wizards prove all his stuff otherwise, I see nothing wrong with the advertising of his products. In addition, I don't see the reasoning for pouncing on him as soon as he suggested the use of his own product. What was he supposed to do? Tell them to stick with Bob Long's boards? He's gotta make his cash too.

Bringing me to my final point. I paid to be a beta tester of both the superbolt I and II, and was thoroughly pissed with the fact that I was really only refunded about 50% with the superbolt trade in for level 10 program. The adverse effects as a result of that POS, including losing twenty bucks plus the broken paint was terrible. At least Jim's product doesn't end up doing the opposite of what it should.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with WAS's claims. The product is very nice from what I can tell, and the only reason for brining up the Superbolt issue is to show how while AGD can put out a product that didn't live up to its claims, they didn't get jumped on for the LX stuff. Give this guy some breathing room, stop acting ignorant. Don't jump on the guy with statements like "WAS at it again!" and completely bash his products. How do you know they don't perform like he says he does? And whats your problem with his advertising? He's not insulting you is he? Well then don't bother the guy.
You are really starting to look ignorant beyond belief.

You refuse to even READ what people have written and bring up old arguments that don’t apply to the WAS issue discussed here. Time and time again it has been stated that no one is bashing his PRODUCTS, but commenting on HIM and his “salesmanship”, carnival barker techniques, and false claims of WHY his products work… not that they work or not.

Now you want to show your complete ignorance about the superbolt to superbolt 2 and LX trade in (when the LX comes WITH a bolt anyway). I am sure that if you wanted a STANDARD bolt back and not the LX with it, you would have been refunded the total amount. But to expect to get All of it back with the addition of an UPGRADE past what the original superbolt was designed to do anyway… give me a break. Not to even mention that it was CLEAR that folks were BETA testing. If you don’t agree with paying to be a beta tester, DON’T DO IT. Heck, a lot of us don’t feel it is right to pay to test a product, and DIDN’T either. We were fine sitting back and letting others work out the bugs and when it was fully tested, THEN buy it. ;)

Beta testers knew up front that there were risks and potential problems….. it was YOUR choice to do it. Deal with it.

Now you are just pissing in the wind for the sake of pissing, and don’t even care that most if it is just coming right back on you.

I for one am through arguing with a fence post…..

But I am sure Jim Drew would be glad to hear he has such spirited supporters.:rolleyes:

[JEDI]

WHO CARES...THEY WORK...GET OFF THE GUY'S BACK

Now I know why The AGD box is so important to you guys. You care more about BS than the actual product.

Bunch of babies! "I'm telling- He said his board can do 30bps!" Bla Bla Bla, whine whine whine."

[shartley]

Originally posted by JEDI
WHO CARES...THEY WORK...GET OFF THE GUY'S BACK

Now I know why The AGD box is so important to you guys. You care more about BS than the actual product.

Bunch of babies! "I'm telling- He said his board can do 30bps!" Bla Bla Bla, whine whine whine."
http://a1028.g.akamai.net/6/1028/2908/444516c765e1c0/www.americanbaby.com/ab/images/1321.jpg
(Insert stomping feet, kicking and rolling around on the floor.)

Yeah, you are right, we are the babies. You sure showed us. You win.

[magman007]

BUAHAHAHA good one sam, Jedi, get off our backs... we have caught him in lies again... and oh yea, the product didnt work the way it was supposed to.... that is whay the new version is out... dont you feel stupid? http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=483880

[Automaggin2]

WHY SHOULD WE LIKE WAS? Jim Drew coined himself "the rocket scientist of paintball", when in fact, Tom Kaye is. Look at all the problems and theorys and such he has come up with, look at what he has done. He sold the open v. closed bolt debate, he co-developed the first nitro systems, and he designs some very intresting products (ie. warp feed and rt)

[Rooster]

Jim Drew is only business becuase of marketing hype, with little to no proof to back up his claims.

And to those griping about super-bolts, I do seem to remember that everyone was warned, several times in fact, that the superbolts were a work in progress and if anyone's world was going to be crushed by their failure to preform, they shouldn't buy them. And then once they didn't everyone was given refunds or LX credit.

If you were disappointed the only person to blame is the one you see in the mirror.

[JEDI]

Guys, I dont know what to say. I feel defeated. I guess you all have legit points. But I'm not ready to crucify WAS. I'm not a naive idiot, so I dont believe any ol' ludicrous claim someone puts out. For the time being It has no effect on me, and I do like the new WAS board.

Thanks for spending time with me, it was fun:D

[manike]

Originally posted by SyntaxError
I guess what I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with WAS's claims

Yes there is. He lies, uses smoke and mirror techniques and tries to explain things making them as hard as possible to understand when in reality what he claims is impossible and just down right rubbish/fabrication. If you LIKE being lied to, then there isn't an issue. If you don't like being lied to or having people misled then there is an issue.


Originally posted by JEDI
This just seems like an unfair assessment from people who dont have facts and research to back it up.

This is the thing about WAS. He is a clever guy and uses it unfairly to baffle and boss people around. The trouble is he comes up against some of us that aren't a bunch of sheep and do have the facts and research to check out his claims. And when we do a 'fair assessment' we find him falling short, time and time again. The people that have this facts and research, call him on his lies, and the people that don't accept them. I'm glad I know which side of that group I am on. He is so full of rubbish which he uses to confuse those that don't understand that it's unreal.

He does make good stuff. I've said that all along, but I can't stand people lieing to me or my fellow ballers in order to make them buy something. If he just told the truth and didn't BS his stuff I would recommend his products. In fact I do recommend the WAS Equaliser board. I just tell people to be wary of him and his claims and his BS.


Originally posted by JEDI
Here's my main objective, that maybe some of you will agree on. Couldnt we just let this issue die until either a faulty product does come out, or something damaging is said.

We do. But everytime he lies to some new player who's money is better spent on paint and playing rather than his latest gadget which will make little difference for that guy, then you will see those of us who can call him, do so.


Originally posted by JEDI
Most of you agree that the WAS stuff IS good, so whats the problem? Bogus claims are made every day, but most of us can see past them.

The problem is that clearly most people can not see past the bogus claims. If you can, great. But many can not. I don't like seeing people lied to or ripped off. That's my issue.

manike

[luke]

Bringing me to my final point. I paid to be a beta tester of both the superbolt I and II, and was thoroughly pissed with the fact that I was really only refunded about 50% with the superbolt trade in for level 10 program. The adverse effects as a result of that POS, including losing twenty bucks plus the broken paint was terrible. At least Jim's product doesn't end up doing the opposite of what it should. I don't remember Tom saying you would be refunded any money if it was a flop......

I know on the level 10, being a beta tester simply meant you got a discount on the bolt. Tom never said there would be refunds if it didn't work.