Any of you guys want to fight? Lets have a brawl. Its the endless debate.....

[robspectre]

Ok guys. I was on a thread on the traders forum that turned into a big argument about cocker/shocker/matrix accuracy compared to Angel/mag/ accuracy (and range). Let fight the enless fight. Lets see what you guys think.

I personally do NOT believe all markers shooting the same velocity with matching paint to barrel match shoot the same. Dont get me wrong...I love my emag and its personally my favorite marker. I just dont believe its as accurate or shoots as long as my sfl cocker. Now I know the masses disagree with me.

You know the what I believe. I know Tom is the ultimate brain and in all his infinate wisdom he has a theory about this. Also, if im not mistaken....in a recent apg magazine he stated that LOW PRESSURE does not exist. Hmmmmm......If thats true like he says.....all markers have an instant velocity of 50000 fps. If im mistaken please let me know. Anyways....How come the shockers, tricked cockers, and matrix as well as a few others have so much better range and accuracy. Now I know many of you if not all of you will agree with Tom. But Ive owned most of the upper end markers out there and I have seen a difference.

Did anybody put into account about bolt pressure/speed? The emag bolt is supper fast and I believe it couses ball destortion. And if LOW PRESSURE does not exist....why have a dwell? What im saying is, if the low pressure theory doesnt exist, a dwell would be unneeded. The dwell is designed to allow more air (volume) into the ball breach to move the ball. With lower pressure you need more air volume. Lower pressure equals more gas usage. Now since Ive installed the level 10 bolt i have noticed a bit more gas usage. I have not really had a good day of play with it so it may now be just as accurate. If you guys have noticed any difference let me know.

Like I stated earlier the bolt speed is super fast on the emag. Doesnt the emag bolt move at about 20 fps? The cockers move at 6 fps right? Would this make a differance. Now dont get me wrong. Im not saying Worr Games have a better product. They make fine markers but I like my mags better. The exchange is volume over extreme accuracy. Lots of people say cocker accuracy is false. Im hear to disagree. As for the shocker.....extreme accuracy. So also with the matrix and Nasty impulse (i say nasty because its the best impulse i have ever owned).

Anyways.....LETS FIGHT!!!

I want to see what you guys think. Its all for fun. Im not really looking to start a WWF event here or nothing but a lil'bit of violence and nashing of teeth never hurt anybody...LOL. Really guys, lets see what you think. I will probably never change any theories you guys have and I will probably not change my mind but who cares. Lets have fun. This argument has been going on ever since the beginning.

Oh....and Tom is the man. I personally think he has the best run company out today. With people like Jon Comprado and the rest of the crew you just cant ask for more. Not only does AGD develope some of the best markers out there but the service after the sale is the best. You guys rock. And dont get me wrong with this thread......its just what I think and I want to start a fight.....LOL. You guys be cool.
Your Friend.....robspectre (Robby Laypath)

[toymyster]

You will believe what you will believe despite what anyone else says or the evidence they show!! I'm not going to fight you, there's no money in it!!!

[deded]

i like fighting and everything.... but to me its already over, and has nothing to do with tom, its about physics.

Saying that a cocker shooting 300 fps will shoot farther than a mag shooting 300 fps is like saying that a pound of bricks is heavier than a pound of feathers.

fps

feet
per
second

say "feet per second" 10 times.

this means that the paintball will fly 300 feet for every second that it is in the air. Unless your marker is using some form of spin to keep it up, the time that it is in the air is proportional not to the marker that it came from, not to the elves in the gun, and not to tom kaye.... but to gravity. So unless gravity has less effect on paintballs that come from cockers, itll go the same distance, and the range will be equal.

and since you asked for a fight and not a conversation... im gonna take a guess and say that you've never been in a physics classroom before, nor has anyone that says that gun X shoots farther than gun Y @ the same fps.

:D ;)

[badfish314]

I am going to get together w/ some of my friend who shoot mags.We will chrono at 280fps,use the same freak insert,and same bag of diablo hellfire. I will set the markers on a rest at a 15 degree angle and average out 100 shots w/ both markers. We will measure distance and in another test accuracy. It wont be indoors unfortunatley, but aleast both markers will suffer accordingly. We will pit a 2k2 cocker shooting at 250psi. against a newer minimag. My mag friends are bigger than me so we will have no bias toward my cocker. Hellfire is a good quality paint ,which is small and very heavy, as far as paintballs go. It is very round and the balls have no noticable seams. I will be using a freak as that is the only barrel we have in common 14" all american tip. We will both use a pmi 88ci 4500 tank, w/ 850 output pressure. Waiting 5 seconds between shots, so my cocker can "recharge". My money is on my cocker...any bets?

[AGD]

HEY!! WAIT a minute!! I am the all knowing TOM KAYE and I DO control gravity!! I made it the same for everyone so there would be no complaining.

Send your donations to,

AGD

[Miscue]

Har Har. :)

[yeahthatsme]

ROFLMAO@tom..ahahahahahaha thats great....

[pballguy17]

"one's own mind is ALWAYS stronger than the will of another."

If someone tells u something, an du belive it, and TRUELY belive, nothing anyone can say or do will change ur mind. And furthermore u urself will think u see a diffrance.

U said u were shooting farther than other high end guns... was the wind behind u? mayb they weren't arching their guns up high enough? mayb they don't have any idea how to play paintball and their mommy bought them the gun and they don't kno what the hell to do with it? mayb their guns are really incosistant and they set their FPS to 250.

U statement doesn't show much fact. OUR'S is proven by commen sence AND logic AND physics.

also alightly off topic a bullet fired from a gun, will hit the ground the same time as a bullet droped from the same height. what that means is if u fire a gun and drop a bullet at the same time and same heigt, (given now the gun was at a stright angle) they hit the ground at the same time. try it with paintball. find a long feild, shoot a paintall flat, and drop a paintball. gravity is pulling them at the same time. it will b of the amount of time the ball takes to leave the barrel, b/c gravity isn't pulling it down in the barrel.

If the above is tru, than it doesn't matter what gun it came out of, it's going to drop at the same speed 3.4 m/s if i recall from skol (correct me if i'm wrong) so if every paintball drops at the same speed, and they leave the barrel at the same speed what other thing can effect it? the magic elves in closed bolt guns? gotta b, no other explnatino for it ;)

[badfish314]

The shots will be measured. Not "man that went really far". This isn't going to be totally scientific, as I could care less which marker shoots farter,yet to have fun with. I am not spending 40 billion dollars to figure out the square root of infinity divided by 3.14.(I don't care if there is an answer to that either). I am just trying to have some fun w/ half a case of hellfire. A question though...in relation to spin on balls shot out of different markers. When getting shot at..balls whizzing overhead...why do cocker and shocker shot balls sound different. Maybe it's just me, maybe not. I play rec all the time w/ the same guys and I can tell who is shooting at me by the "sound" of the balls. In my opinion they have a whizz sound to them. Maybe you should have a sound test of different markers using the same balls at the same fps. I don't have the resources for that though. As for the magical elves...what's up with that? As for the sound of the balls, I am not a ninja, Jedi,or daredevil. I have no enhanced senses, not an alien,or a mutant. They just sound different to me. Here we go......flame on.

[dansim]

:eek:

[cphilip]

The "all knowing Tom kaye" huh? Well what am I thinking now Tom? :D :eek: :p

We have done this subject over and over rob and I guess and its a good one. But not sure I even care to "fight" over it. All I would have to do was wait on you and then do a search for some gem to counteract you and post that up. ;)

[obsolete898]

Hi I'm physics, obviously we haven't met.:rolleyes:

[FalconGuy016]

Couldnt the different style of guns operation have a different effect on a paintball? such as a spin (even a slight one) or something on the liquid on the inside of the paintball that could effect it AFTER it leaves the barrel at 300 fps?

[hitech]

Go to your local junior college and take a physics course. Seriously. I did. Then see if you think it's still possible.

[booyah]

http://www.pbstar.com/misc-tech/range-debate/

seems someone else did that experiment also... angel bushy and shocker...

-Booyah

[Wc Keep]

honestly i dont find this to be a topic worth argueing. (sp) if can hit the guy in the back stand up bunker then its accurate enough for me.

[lopxtc]

Didnt Al Gore have a role in this also?

Aaron


Originally posted by AGD
HEY!! WAIT a minute!! I am the all knowing TOM KAYE and I DO control gravity!! I made it the same for everyone so there would be no complaining.

Send your donations to,

AGD

[spazzed]

Originally posted by lopxtc
Didnt Al Gore have a role in this also?

Aaron



Nonono. He invented the internet. NOT the simple laws of Physics ;)

[Kevmaster]

check out Warpig's version of your test:
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml

take a looksee

[Ityl]

basic physics also neglects friction, so friction must not exist. Just so you know, it is pretty much impossible to model a real world system. That means you cannot predict what will happen exactly. You can have an idea, and get close, but it will never be perfect.

If you say 2 balls going 300 fps out of 2 different guns go the exact same distance, then I will bet you 1 million dollars that my neighbors M98 with flatline will go farther than your mag at 300 fps and not angled up.

This is an exaggeration in the difference between all the different guns, but it shows that all guns don't have the same accuracy and range. They are close, but not exact. Even a single gun cannot lauch a ball the exact same every time, so if one gun cannot do it, then you can't expect another to shoot the same as it.

Even Doc Nickel came on here and said that all guns don't shoot the same, but there isn't a huge difference.

And of course AGD will say that all guns shoot the same, they make the guns that have been claimed to not shoot as far.

But I could really couldn't care less about all this.

[booyah]

friction doesnt come into play in these calculations... dont get me wrong, friction factors into equations, but in this case the friction should act no different on either ball. both being the same size, mass, and traveling at the same velocity friction will act on both the same.

the flatline model 98 and mag example is a poor one at best. the entire point of the flatline is to add an intentional consistant spin to the ball. its called the magnus effect a back spining ball will create lift and travel a flater trajectory.

Thats accepted fact. the entire conversionation though is negating spin, since unless the spin is very consistant it will negativly affect accuracy. thats why the flatline with poor paint sucks, the spin isnt consistant.

now, if you were to somehow put a flatline on a mag (man that would be ugly) and shoot the same paint out of it and a model 98 flatline, at the same angle, same velocity then they WILL TRAVEL THE SAME DISTANCE. it has nothing to do with the gun, your statement is all about the barrel.

and i'll take you up on that bet, i'm sure there is someway to mount my flatline on my mag and for 1million dollars i'll do it.

-Booyah

[halB]

of course the cocker shoots farther, after all it has the "super physics defying elves"

but seriously, if we do ignore physics, we find that the cocker is really more accurate

[booyah]

hehe, right up there with my favorite quote from paintballers


"Yeah well physics is all on paper and this is the real world!"

and if physics didnt work in the real world how on earth do we get cell phones, space stations, and that thar contraption yer typin on now!

i mean if by some magic an autococker can shoot a ball 20% farther and 10% more accurate, wouldnt nasa contract WGP to tell them how and reduce the launch cost of satelites?

-Booyah

now, before i get flamed, do me a favor, solve this physics issue for me I'll make it easy

Little jimmy is on his sled on a frictionless ice hill, the hill is 20 meters tall, and little jimmy pushes off.

at the bottom of the hill is a brick wall. now, assuming little jimmy and sled weigh 40 Kg and decelerates his full velocity over 4 inches of crushed sled, how many g forces does little jimmy take? better yet, say little jimmy can survice 50G over a short period (pretty realistic) does he live?

show your work :-P

[FalconGuy016]

Couldnt the different style of guns operation have a different effect on a paintball? such as a spin (even a slight one) or something on the liquid on the inside of the paintball that could effect it AFTER it leaves the barrel at 300 fps?

[rhetor22]

Yes, and that is the only thing the gun can affect. The gun controls velocity, and spin (it doesn't really control it, but the spin on the ball, if any, should be consistent in one gun.)

Besides spin and velocity, i don't think there is anything the gun can change.

Spin is made in the barrel anyhow.

:o why am i even doing this... i don't care either way.

I can't see any difference between accuracey in different guns. So it doesn't really bother me.

[HoppysMag]

law of physics, neglecting air resistance and spin. 2 objects launched at the same angle going the same speed will go the same range...gravity affects them both the same. if you take a gun and point it paralel to a level field and fire it, and at the same time drop a bullet from the same height, they will both hit at the same time, just the fired bullet is down range.... so even with ballistics, the way to extend range, is to add speed.

now when you introduce a backspin device ( such as the Automag Z body or M98 flatline barrel) then the ball, if consistantly spinning, will go farher than the bal fired from a regular marker.

[RRfireblade]

O.K. (takes deep breath) I'm sure why I'm gonna say this because I don't think I believe it could, but.....

You go over to the crono,(with your mag)hold your gun down over the crono and fire x amount of times.....280fps.

Now Joey Cocker fan does the same......280fps.

Now, your out playing and take a shot,marker either shouldered or held out. My rockin' Mag fires,it's high speed bolt uncorks.The bolt rockets forword,paintball in hand and launches the projectile off at 280fps,HOWEVER....the speed of such a launch of "BOLT AND BALL" causes an equal but opposite reaction (physics baby)forcing the gun rearward,if ever so slightly,thereby slowing the PBall just enough to be noticable at somewhere around 100 feet away as the slight loss is magnified by the time and distance.The ball drops 1 foot short of Joeys Goggles and erupts on his bunker.

Joey in retaliation of his near elimination,returns fire.This time however,his "bolt" is just hanging on as it blows its wad...of gas that is (sorry) and fails to contribute to the mass causing the rearward reaction.The differance as so subtle as to only be detectable....you guessed it......100 feet away there by .....splat!!Gogged again by that damn cocker guy!

To confound matters worse,the post closing bolt and back block slam into the gun frame,loading the next Pball and actually causes a slight forward motion to the gun as the next shot is fired as to give it that much more perseptable range.(what ever that might be)

"Believe it......OR NOT"

Jay.

[syk]

Someone at angel-owners already solved the whole range debate. He said that it is a well kept secret that paintballs have eyes. Once they leave the barrel they look back at the gun that fired them and if they see a cocker they know that they must travel 50ft. farther than if they saw an angel or a mag. Now we have one less thing to fight about.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
O.K. (takes deep breath) I'm sure why I'm gonna say this because I don't think I believe it could, but.....

You go over to the crono,(with your mag)hold your gun down over the crono and fire x amount of times.....280fps.

Now Joey Cocker fan does the same......280fps.

Now, your out playing and take a shot,marker either shouldered or held out. My rockin' Mag fires,it's high speed bolt uncorks.The bolt rockets forword,paintball in hand and launches the projectile off at 280fps,HOWEVER....the speed of such a launch of "BOLT AND BALL" causes an equal but opposite reaction (physics baby)forcing the gun rearward,if ever so slightly,thereby slowing the PBall just enough to be noticable at somewhere around 100 feet away as the slight loss is magnified by the time and distance.The ball drops 1 foot short of Joeys Goggles and erupts on his bunker.

Joey in retaliation of his near elimination,returns fire.This time however,his "bolt" is just hanging on as it blows its wad...of gas that is (sorry) and fails to contribute to the mass causing the rearward reaction.The differance as so subtle as to only be detectable....you guessed it......100 feet away there by .....splat!!Gogged again by that damn cocker guy!

To confound matters worse,the post closing bolt and back block slam into the gun frame,loading the next Pball and actually causes a slight forward motion to the gun as the next shot is fired as to give it that much more perseptable range.(what ever that might be)

"Believe it......OR NOT"

Jay.

not.:rolleyes:

[HoppysMag]

ok in paintball , same as regular guns, most if not all of the kick is from the gasses escaping the muzzle, hence the need for compensators on FA rifles... if the gass has left the gun and pushed the barrel up, then the ball has already left too. and if your version had any truth then the mag would be forced down from the momentem of the bolt going forward under what ever PSI its stoping... not up from the pressure of the weak little spring...

[FalconGuy016]

couldnt different bolts apply the air differently and then effect the paintballs slightly differntly? Im not going for a hueg distance change

[RRfireblade]

I think there's at tad differance between-

A rifle shooting a bullet @4,000 FPS and 40,000 psi chamber pressure.

A paintball gun 280fps and I don't know....300psi chamber pressure (guess)

Jay

[HoppysMag]

i see where you are with it but i just dont think that it makes any diffrance at paintball... cause also dont forget you chronoing( SP?) out of the barrel is including that supposed "Kick" so even if it was true that it drops a small amout while in the barrel doesnt affect the fact that yyou chroney out at the end of the barrel, you see what i mean....

[RRfireblade]

I know. I didn't say I thought it was true,I just thought it was maybe the only logical reason I could muster.(this was supposed to be for fun.)As for the crono, the place we play at has the "red" one and you kinda rest your barrel on the rubber upper part that would "maybe" nullify the "kick" found later in the field.

Jay.

Wait a second......Uh oh.....my flying pig just got out of his cage.....got go catch him.

[HoppysMag]

:D i actualy chrono holding my gun because of how my tank is...;) , but whatever...:)

[petefol]

arent most rifles closed bolt because they are bolt action, or does he mean an auto rifle?

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by petefol
arent most rifles closed bolt because they are bolt action, or does he mean an auto rifle?

who me? i said "FA rifles" which is full auto, and it depends on what you consider a rifle... an uzi is open bolt but not really a rifle

[robspectre]

Can you guys believe Tom actually replied to this post? Thanks Tom...

Actually Im going to test this this weekend if possible. Im either going to say its an optical illusion or Im actually right. We'll see. It will be fun.

Oh...and the remark earlier about the wizzzzz some markers have.......Ive noticed that. Wonder what causes that?

Oh...and Tom....dont get me wrong. My favorite marker is my Emag. I just have to test this theory myself. I have owned so many cockers in the past and they seem to shoot farther and more accurate. Im going to test this. Now personally I love cockers and I believe them to be excellent markers, although if I had to use my mag or a cocker I would choose my mag.

Anyways....great fight. Im actually suprised so many of you actually came here and agreed/disagreed with me.

Oh...and Tom....dont take this badly. Im not even trying to rag on a mag. I actually choose to use them. I cant count how many mags I have owned. I have registered all of my mags so you can see just how much I love em.

You guys are great here at AO and Ive had lots of fun. But seriously, Isnt conflict kind of fun?

[Ityl]

obviously you guys can't think at all. I said the flatline is an exaggeration. Have you never shot 2 tone paint at a lower velocity. Paintballs spun out of my Bruizer Pro, but you want to neglect spin.

[misfit]

280fps,HOWEVER....the speed of such a launch of "BOLT AND BALL" causes an equal but opposite reaction (physics baby)forcing the gun rearward,if ever so slightly,thereby slowing the PBall just enough to be noticable at somewhere around 100 feet away
the ball will not have slowed down if it is still leaving the barrell at 280

[MinimagRockin']

I'm sure cockers by sheer chance just so happen to put some kind of positive spin on the ball and that makes them shoot noticably farther than any other gun...give me a break.

[Kevmaster]

actually, the idea of a closed bolt being better is there is NO spin. they claim that with the ball already in the barrel and stoped when the air hits it, there is no spin on the ball and therefore its more accurate.

just look at the tests. there is no more range for the shocker which is regarded as the ultimate "long ranger" by most players. angels and bushys shoot just as far...its all hype!

[Ityl]

I never said one specific gun shot farther or more accurate than other. I just said there's no way at 2 guns can shoot exactly the same.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by MinimagRockin'
I'm sure cockers by sheer chance just so happen to put some kind of positive spin on the ball and that makes them shoot noticably farther than any other gun...give me a break.

lol im pretty sure EDIT: Positive spin would actualy throw the ball into the ground... back spin would give it range.


I never said one specific gun shot farther or more accurate than other. I just said there's no way at 2 guns can shoot exactly the same are you saying you dissagree with the laws of physics or you just dont think that in actual real world game play 2 guns will go exactly the same distance? if its the game play one, you could be right, things like air resistance, consistance of velocity, height from fireing point, obviously angle, and irregularitys in the ball will toy with the results... but neglecting air resistance, irregularitys, and firing 2 projectiles from same hight at same speed and same angle will result in the same range.

[hitech]

Okay, I'll bite. What can a marker actually do that will affect the paintball once it leaves the barrel to give it more range at the same fps?

[oldsoldier]

Hoppy, i think Kev meant real world. you cant possibly control ALL things on the field. you have velocity spikes, small differences in paint, irregular seating, whatever. I deally, you would have to control everything; temp, ball consistency, air consitency, whatever. I really dont think that field testing is gonna prove or disprove anything new. And, like everyone else stated; 280 fps is 280 fps. whether it is a paintball or a cannonball. They travel the same speed initially.
And, comparing bullet ballistics to paint ballistics doesnt really work. Rifles (not open bolt sub machine guns) are designed for the bolt to NOT open till the bullet has left the barrel. Hence the gas tube at the end of the barrels. This doesnt apply to open bolt firearms; they are not very accurate. Hence, most open bolt firearms are small (for control), have rudimentary sights (general aim, no gradations,) and are full auto (classic spray and pray). You can also control the amount of powder, size of bullet, and other things for a more consistent test. Anyway, seeing as I know nothing about physics (hell, I try to break the gravity law all the time :D ), I will bow out of this. This debate has been done, and is always interesting to follow, but I really have nothing else to contribute.

[HoppysMag]

thats what i thought he ment and i was agreeing with him. and the comparison of real guns is an exagerated example of mooving parts, VS escape ing gasses.

[Ityl]

If 2 balls come out of 2 guns the exact same, they will go to the same spot at any distance. I just don't believe it is possible for any guns to do this.

And this is just a theory, I doubt anyone could ever prove this, but I don't think anyone could prove it wrong either.

[halB]

i can see how people think cockers shoot further. I myself have seen guns shoot farther than the others, both chronoed at the same speed (hell i chronoed the damn things myself and locked their velocity) HOWEVER, they were both rental rebels. one had a freak on it, and had the bore matched perfectly. the other had a stock barrel. the freak shot further, flatter, and a hell of a lot more accurate. considering that most of the people who compare the distances often compare them to lower end guns, where odds are people have worse barrels, its not surprise that one gun shoots further than the other. the simple answer is IT DOES. the thing is, its the barrel, not the gun.

btw, since paintballs have a liquid core any minor spin created by a bolt would be negated as the liquid would stop spinning incredibly fast. try spinning a boiled egg, and a raw egg. also, closed bolt guns and open bolt guns BOTH go through the SAME firing cycle at high speeds of fire.

[RRfireblade]

Just for the record ALL guns "fire" from a closed bolt position regardless of the position of the action at rest.Open bolt F/A rifles in some cases of high cyclic rates fire just prior to being "fully" closed but are still basically considered closed at the time of firing the cartradge.

Jay.

[hitech]

Originally posted by halB
btw, since paintballs have a liquid core any minor spin created by a bolt would be negated as the liquid would stop spinning incredibly fast.

No they do not. Look at the data (pictures) Tom posted in Deep Blue. Also, I can spin a paintball on a table. What do eggs have to do with paintballs?

[HoppysMag]

when you spin an egg you spin the shell but the insides stay staionary and cause all kinds of ballence problem and cause certian forces to mess everything up, same reason rifling in paintball doesnt work.

[hitech]

Originally posted by HoppysMag
when you spin an egg you spin the shell but the insides stay staionary and cause all kinds of ballence problem and cause certian forces to mess everything up, same reason rifling in paintball doesnt work.

The inside of an egg has little in common with the inside of a paintball. First of all, there is nothing like a yolk inside of a paintball.

BTW, you CAN spin a paintball on a table. You can also spin an egg if you do it correctly. Lay it "flat" and try it.

[halB]

ummm so the liquid in the egg isnt similar to the liquid in the paintball?? you know, theyre only BOTH liquids. yes, you can spin a paintball, the smae with a raw egg. the thing is, a cooked egg spins a lot longer, because the liquid core stops and negates spinning extremely quickly. the same with a paintball. the liquid core prevents the spinning from happening for too long. also, since the thing goes down the barrel and touches it, unless ur using a lapco z barrel, the barrel will stop all spinning, and often put its own spin on it.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by hitech


The inside of an egg has little in common with the inside of a paintball. First of all, there is nothing like a yolk inside of a paintball.

BTW, you CAN spin a paintball on a table. You can also spin an egg if you do it correctly. Lay it "flat" and try it.

lol where did i say you couldnt spin a paintball? and laying it (EDIT: the egg) down flat does not count cause now all you are doing is lowering its center of gravity... so it has no reason to fall. and for our means, a liquid, is a liquid, is a liquid.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by hitech


No they do not. Look at the data (pictures) Tom posted in Deep Blue. Also, I can spin a paintball on a table. What do eggs have to do with paintballs?

point out the EXACT info that your talking about...cause i cant find it.

EDIT: heres my info... http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/03_spinning.shtml not to mention personal observations and my own fun and games experiments w/ eggs;) lottsa cleaning....:D

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

alot of you mistake trajectory and accuracy. Cockers have a greater TRAJECTORY then mags, so the ball stays in the air longer. Different bolts do make a difference. Different breeches make a difference too.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
alot of you mistake trajectory and accuracy. Cockers have a greater TRAJECTORY then mags, so the ball stays in the air longer. Different bolts do make a difference. Different breeches make a difference too.

right... cockers can defy gravity,;) i see it all makes sence now... cockers are the one thing gravity doesnt effect... everything else is pulled down at 9.8M/s/s but of course not a paintball fired from a cocker... the only way to get it to stay in the air longer are, backspin, wings, engine, angle of launch and the height at wich it is launched ( ie holding it above your head as opposed to skimming the ground).


EDIT: you know what im done w/ this thread, its really starting to get to me that many people buy into hype and dont understand or want to understand the laws of physics!, last post, any problems PM me

[badfish314]

It is far too cold and windy and snowy to do my little test between a cocker and a minimag. I'll wait till better weather comes along, like spring. Always question what society and science has laid down before us though. They have both been known to be wrong at times. Don't take anything for granted or hold anything sacred. Never stop thinking about or questioning the things we "know" to be true. If that were the case most of us would still be living in Europe. The whole flat earth thing, comes to mind. The science of the times said the Earth had to be flat and that the Earth was the center of the Universe. We can all laugh at this now, but similar mistakes are being made today,although none so obvious. As for math, take this in stride. 3 guys walk into a hotel, they need a room, the clerk say's 30.00 for all three of you. They each give 10.00 and go to their room. The night cleck comes on duty and sees that the other clerk has made a mistake, overcharging them by 5.00. He calls the bellhop and give him 5.00 to return to the 3 guest. On his way upstairs he thinks to himself "how can I split 5.00 between 3 people, I dont have any change on me". So he decides to give them each 1.00 back and keep the other 2.00 for himself. So they each paid 9.00 for the room, right? 9 times 3 equals 27, right? Plus the 2 dollars that the bellhop took for himself, and you have 29.00, right? What happened to the other dollar? Just to prove it's all in the way you look at things.

[hitech]

Originally posted by HoppysMag
point out the EXACT info that your talking about...

Look in this picture. Does the paintball slow down?

<img src="http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/101b.jpg">

If that isn't detailed enough you can find a hires picture here (File name is 101.TIF):

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/

BTW, if the egg spins, it spins. ;) Also, the inside of an egg is QUITE different than a paintball. The only thing they have in common is that both contain liquid. However, and egg contains MUCH more than a simple liquid.

[CpSuPeRkId]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016
couldnt different bolts apply the air differently and then effect the paintballs slightly differntly? Im not going for a hueg distance change not really, the WERM undertoe bolt for impulses claimed to do that. well its not exactly selling right now. it does nothing. now onto my opinion on things. guns all have the same basic trajectory. maybe TINY but unnoticeable spin on a ball now and then from something other than the way the marker shoots. but like i said its unnoticeable. cockers do not shoot more accurately than an angel. i have shotten cockers that were as bad as a blowback and some that shoot as straight as a dart. its all on how it was set up with paint and barrel at that particular time. warpig did the proving test using the SAME GUN by converting it from open bolt to closed bolt. no difference and it turned out that the open bolt happened to have a better shot grouping too. that doesnt mean its more accurate than closed bolt. i mean cmon an open bolt shoots the same way as a closed bolt gun. it shoots when the bolt is in the closed position. so for you closed bolt nuts out there, ITS PROVEN, DONE, FINISHED, PERIOD. as for each individual guns from angel to mag to cocker. like i said before they might have an unnoticeable difference that could be caused by anything besides the actual method of firing. u know what would prove people wrong and i bet its never been done before? a blind shot test. you make a person wear ear plugs and everything and put a blanket over a marker. make sure they cant tell what it is and pull the trigger. ask them to see which one they saw go further. ill bet all my money that they dont say a cocker, just by chance. they would probably end up saying the angel or mag went further. somebody has to do this and show the results. its a simple test too.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by hitech


Look in this picture. Does the paintball slow down?

<img src="http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/101b.jpg">

If that isn't detailed enough you can find a hires picture here (File name is 101.TIF):

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/

BTW, if the egg spins, it spins. ;) Also, the inside of an egg is QUITE different than a paintball. The only thing they have in common is that both contain liquid. However, and egg contains MUCH more than a simple liquid.

ok incase you dont understand what we are saying, wich you dont, the liquid slows the spin, not the ball, and a egg spinning that way is only spinning cause it has no reason to fall... if you try to spin it like a top the liquid slows the spin and the egg falls over... take a glass of water put an ice cube in the middle and turn the glass , notice how the cube stays put... this shows us that the water is also stationary. i really dont think you even care to understand this. the same thing is happening in a paintball... read the last link i posted from "Toms Tech Tips" then you will understand it.

[hitech]

Originally posted by HoppysMag
Ok in case you don't understand what we are saying, which you don't, the liquid slows the spin, not the ball...read the last link I posted from "Toms Tech Tips" then you will understand it.

First off, "spin" isn't a noun. It CAN'T BE anything. The ball is spinning, get it? ;) BTW, in Tom's tech tips he is talking about a different spin rate. At slow rates of spin, based on Toms' testing, it appears the paintball does not slow down much. Also, you are ASSUMING that the reason you can't spin an egg on end is because the liguid is slowing the shell. I say maybe it's because the yolk is bouncing around inside the egg. :)

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech


First off, "spin" isn't a noun. It CAN'T BE anything. The ball is spinning, get it? ;)
Actually he didn't say it was a noun. ;) Spin or to spin is an action (verb), and if someone says... "It slows the spin", it is not incorrect since you can speed up or slow an action. :D

He slowed down the walk.

Putting on the breaks slows down the rotation.

See? ;)

However, I would agree that you can not say the “spin” slowed, but not the object. Since one would directly affect the other. :D

But you are correct, the reason an egg does not spin on end is not because they yolk and whites slow it down…. the way an egg yolk and white are made (and react to the shell) causes the egg to become unbalanced. The yolk “wobbles” inside the whites which are a cushion for the yolk and unborn chick. Again, the egg does not fall over because the yolk is slowing it down from the inside, but because the yolk causes the egg to become unbalanced.

You CAN however, spin the egg on its side because the way the yolk and the whites are, the yolk can more easily settle into a central low point. But do to design, it can not do the same thing standing on end. Heck, even the shape of an egg itself will make it pretty hard to spin on end even if NO yolk was there. Unless weighted, even a plastic egg (with NO filling) will not want to spin on end. The shape makes it want to roll on its side. And there is no liquid inside “slowing it down”. Try it out. :)

Equating eggs to paintballs is always a bad idea in my opinion. ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley

Actually he didn't say it was a noun. ;)

Sure he did:

the liquid slows the spin, not the ball...
He is saying that it slowed the spin, not the ball (ie not the spin on the ball). It has to slow the spin OF something. ;)

And yes, compairing eggs to paintballs is worse than apples to oranges. BTW, I have/had no idea why an egg won't spin on end. That was just another possible reason. ;)

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by hitech



He is saying that it slowed the spin, not the ball (ie not the spin on the ball).


ya, um you REALLY dont get what im saying, mabey its my poor explaining/ examples... but im saying it slows the BALLS SPIN, not the velocity.

[Retardrice]

ya ya ya

2 guns shooting the same velocity will shoot the same distance...

personally its untrue

many things effect the shot of the ball, and im totally disregarding all random errors that could occur.

mostly, the barrel affects distance because of the type of spin it may but on a ball, for example a tippman flatline WILL shoot farther at 300 fps than pretty much any other gun on the market, this is because of the backspin put on the ball. this does increase distance of the shot. A barrel that puts for-spin on a ball and is 3 inches long, shooting at 300 fps will shoot a paintball shorter than a flatline will.. period.

the velocity of the paintball, lets say 300 fps is MUZZLE VELOCITY, but what about the following flight of the ball?

and as robspectre said, i also believe that method and operating pressure of a gun also makes a difference.

[MinimagRockin']

Originally posted by HoppysMag


lol im pretty sure back spin would actualy throw the ball into the ground... back spin would give it range.


what? what did I say about back spin? and how can back spin throw a ball into the ground and give it range? I was responding to some of the earlier posts about how a cocker could possibly put some kind of funky spin to the ball and that's how it would shoot farther.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by MinimagRockin'


what? what did I say about back spin? and how can back spin throw a ball into the ground and give it range? I was responding to some of the earlier posts about how a cocker could possibly put some kind of funky spin to the ball and that's how it would shoot farther.
:p sorry typo, ment to say front/ positive spin. it place of the first back spin give me a sec to look back and il try to get a better answer 4 u.

heres, check this out... http://home.attbi.com/~dyrgcmn/pball/trajectory.html if you put in the spin angle as a positive and give it some RPM's you can see the ball slams to the ground prematurly... shoot a ball @ 0 spin and 0 RPM @280fps then try it with full positive spin and full neg, both full RPM... its pretty cool toy.:D

[halB]

phew, got lots of stuff to correct here


Originally posted by hitech

BTW, if the egg spins, it spins. ;) Also, the inside of an egg is QUITE different than a paintball. The only thing they have in common is that both contain liquid. However, and egg contains MUCH more than a simple liquid.

now where to begin, how bout what makes up an egg?

do you know what the largest cell is?? the yolk in an ostrich egg. MUCH more than a simple liquid?? if its unfertilized, its one big ole single cell. sounds pretty damn simple to me. how many dead cells from bacteria trapped in the paintball are there??

second of all, did i ever say you cant spin a raw egg? apperantly ur looking for what u wanna find, but heres the deal.

if you spin a raw egg and a cooked egg at the same rpms and everything the RAW egg (namatamago for the japanese out there) will slow down WAAAAAAAY before the cooked egg will. and it will stop much much sooner. this is because the liquid inside doesnt spin, and through the miracles of inertia and friction, it stops the outer shell. go do it yourself, boil an egg and spin it next to a raw egg

now what does this have to do with a paintball? well a paintball is liquid filled, similar to an egg. dont go on about how an egg has a different liquid in there ITS IRRELEVANT, its the mere fact that its a liquid. the liquid fill in a paintball slows down the spin (spin of the paintball mr. special english class). sure u can spin a paintball, even longer than a raw egg, its got less liquid compared to surface area of the paintballs semi solid.

ok, how does that apply to closed bolt v open bolt.
well, lets assume the bolt imparts a spin on the ball. lets just assume this. the liquid fill would pretty much stop this slight spin immedietly. and thats without the barrel.

with any barrel bore thats not ridiculously the-balls-fall-through-the-barrel large the paintball contacts the barrel. the moment that happens, spinning ceases (unless of course, you wanna put some oil down ur gun). at least spinning from the bolt. the split second from the paintball being loaded to it being fired stops the paintballs spinning. now then when it fires, the BARREL imparts its OWN spin on the paintball. completely independent of the bolts spin. this spin as soon as it leaves the barrel is slowed down, but due to the incredible turbulence of the air (sailing through the air at 300 fps aint gentle)the spin has enough of an effect to cause the ball to curve. of course dimples in the paint and seams also create their own drag, which creates its own spin.

so yes, lets assume that closed bolt is better than open bolt. so what, unless ur using no barrel with perfect paint that is a perfect sphere that can only be formed in space, its not gonna really matter.

[halB]

Originally posted by Retardrice

the velocity of the paintball, lets say 300 fps is MUZZLE VELOCITY, but what about the following flight of the ball?


now i dont know what ur angle is here, but im assuming that what you are saying is that the bolt continues to affect the ball after it leaves the muzzle.

unless you have a spyder sport with its plastic bolt that breaks off and flies down your barrel after your paintball gun, the bolt cant affect the ball once its in the barrel, or left the barrel.

[halB]

Originally posted by hitech


First off, "spin" isn't a noun. It CAN'T BE anything. The ball is spinning, get it? ;)


spin ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spn)
n.
1. The act of spinning.
2. A swift whirling motion.
3. A state of mental confusion.
4. Informal. A short drive in a vehicle: took a spin in the new car.
5. The flight condition of an aircraft in a nose-down, spiraling, stalled descent.

6. a. A distinctive point of view, emphasis, or interpretation: “Dryden... was adept at putting spin on an apparently neutral recital of facts” (Robert M. Adams).
b. A distinctive character or style: an innovative chef who puts a new spin on traditional fare.
7. Physics.
a. The intrinsic angular momentum of a subatomic particle. Also called spin angular momentum.
b. The total angular momentum of an atomic nucleus.
c. A quantum number expressing spin angular momentum.

[kman]

Whatever. My level 10 automag shoots just as flat, far, and straight as any cocker out there with a good paint to barrel match. Go try it for your self.:cool:

[Retardrice]

no the bolt can affect spin of the ball, and psi put on the ball every shot affects the shape of it. Some bolts greatly mishape balls, some dont really, it depends.

[robspectre]

Man oh man......did I start a fight or what? I have seen many different oppinions here. Some I agree with and some I dont. Either way this sure is fun. Im taking my PTP microemag out tommorro and test the theory. I will let you guys know. It want be exact science because i have no high end electronic equipment but I will do my best. I am going to post up both markers (wgp orracle and cole cocker vs. Micro emag) usuing the same bore freak and same length. I am going to crono every shot of the markers so I will know They are shooting at the same speed. They will both be the exact same height of the ground (measuring from the barrell to ground) and shooting at random distances. I will be perfectly honest and if Im wrong I will admit it. But if Im right I am sticking to my guns. Painter32 is also going to be there with me to insure no cheating. I have no reason to take up for wgp over agd. I actually prefer my emag over others. I really hope im wrong because I would like to think my emag is just as accurate as any cocker. So...I will post the results after the test. If im wrong, which i dont think i will be, i will let you know. Im going to test range and accuracy. Realize both markers are completely tricked. Both markers will have 14 in. freaks with matching inserts, high end tanks (warped air and maxxie), and both low pressure bolts (cocker bolts vs. level 10). We are going to know the truth tommorro. See ya tommorro.

[halB]

Originally posted by Retardrice
no the bolt can affect spin of the ball, and psi put on the ball every shot affects the shape of it. Some bolts greatly mishape balls, some dont really, it depends.

the air blasts do not misshape the balls, the air actually forms around the ball, not the ball forming around the air. also, assuming the ball is deformed by the bolt, so what, a baseball is deformed by the bat, which has a **** load of more energy between the two, but the thing snaps back into shape right away. the ball would snap back into its original shape before its even traveled a 1/4 inch down the barrel.

[paintposse]

When Tom said guns acellerate the balls around 50,000 fps that is true. 50,000 fps is slowed quiet sugnificantly when the ball reaches the end of the barrel. Its explained more in detail in the april issue of Action.

[paintposse]

I say maybe it's because the yolk is bouncing around inside the egg. Accually the yolk isnt boucing in side the egg. there is a small white proteins and other stuff that is attached to the yolk and the inside of the shell to keep it in place. It works sort of like an ambilicol cord. It helps the baby and makes it so it cant fly away. i am right because u u get a fresh egg and shake it and do whatever u want evcept break the shell and the yolk will never break. The older the egg the less strong that tissue is. I saw that on the food network once. And people said that school makes u smart.

[SHAG]

Hi,

Here is my answer to this arguement/question.

1) Did you hit your intended target with the best of your abilities?

If yes, the marker you were using did its intented fnuction.

If No, proceed to the next question.

2)Did the marker fail(i.e. Mechanical)?

If yes, find the cause of the problem. Make nessecary repairs. Test. Repeat question #1.

If No, proceed to the next question.

3)Did you sight and range on to intended target?

If yes, check yourself.

If no, proceed.

4)Was marker shooting at speed when you took aim?

If yes, good.

If no, adjust velocity.

5) Once the basics are out of the way, did you hit your intended target?

If yes, you have answered question #1 and the entire debate about markers being better.

If no, you might want to rethink the idea that you are not the greatest shot in paintball. Take some time at the range and practice.



Seriously, Yeah an E mag is going to be better than let's say stingray. However, we as players feel let down with the fact we bought "superior" firepower to be only shot out by something like a talon. However, when markers are set up properly, most of those smaller differences are not going to be that noticiable. It comes down to feeling comfortable with the marker you use.

people are different. markers are different. there is no one in paintball that is going to dictate we can only use a super max hyper electro pnuematic gun. Some are going to be better than others. I would hope the 1700 dollar angel or 1300 maxed out customized cocker is going to perform better than a spyder.

To conclude, it all boils down to one thing, did you get the ball on to the intented target to the best of your abilities with the marker you feel the most comfortable with?

Later,
Alan

[Retardrice]

the air blasts do not misshape the balls, the air actually forms around the ball, not the ball forming around the air. also, assuming the ball is deformed by the bolt, so what, a baseball is deformed by the bat, which has a **** load of more energy between the two, but the thing snaps back into shape right away. the ball would snap back into its original shape before its even traveled a 1/4 inch down the barrel.

untrue

two piece barrels often use a method called stepdown, where the first half of the barrel should fit the ball perfectly while the second half should not.

the second half of the barrel gives small room around the ball creating quicker reshape of the paintball, therefore, depending on the barrel, paintballs will reshape quicker or slower.

[Miscue]

Something I wrote in an old thread:

If one gun has more range than another in a horizontal direction, then it should also have more range going in the vertical direction... just a matter of which way you point your gun. Correct? Say 'yes'... I know you can do it. (Reason why removing the horizontal is to simplify the physics for ya'll... same principles... less vectors to play with)

Let's say you shot a ball straight up in the air at 300fps. Can we all agree that this ball is at 300fps? Ok... 300fps now... right? Can you remember 300fps? 300fps... don't forget. 300fps, 300fps, 300fps. Everyone seems to ignore this 300fps thing when talking about range.

Classical physics denotes that in one-dimensional kinematics (which is the case when you shoot something perpendicular to the ground):

Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2

Now, the Maximum height is when the ball is shot up in the air and reaches 0 velocity... the point in which it is about to fall.

Time to reach maximum height = (Initial Velocity - 0 Velocity)/Accel. Gravity

Ok... let's plug some numbers in.

What do you think the Initial Velocity is? 300fps!!! Oh... you're so fast! Accel of gravity is approx 32 ft/sec^2.

Ok... solve for time first:
Time = (<B>300</B> - 0) / 32 = 9.375 sec

Solve for Max Height:

Distance = 300ft/sec x 9.375s - (1/2)32ft/sec/sec * 9.375^2
Distance = 1406.25 ft.

Note... that there is no equation:

Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2 + PFM

Where PFM = the "Pure Magic" cocker constant. There's isn't a place in the equation to add or subtract distance in case you were using a cocker, mag, angel, sling shot, or high speed upchuck.

This equation applies to cannon balls, elephants, cocker spaniels, and bikini models... shot out of open-bolt markers, closed-bolt markers, rifles, cannons, catapults, ballistas... or even lifted up into the air via an explosive device.

Ok, so you want to be a stickler. "Ooh! Oooh! What about this buzzword 'drag' ? Huh? Huh!?!? That's all theoretical! Ooh! Look at the BIG techy word I just used! Theoretical! That doesn't apply in the REAL world"

I could calculate drag for you, but would require a lot more work and differential equations that you wouldn't understand anyway. Basically... most lack the necessary tool box to begin to understand such 'real world' computations. And besides, if you're using same projectile at same velocity... the effect of drag is identical anyway... so everything is equal... so what one projectile loses in drag... the other does as well. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/falling.html

Look at this for a while, and if you understand it then maybe I'll give you some 'REAL' world calculations... which would be a waste of time because the fundamentals are the same... and the math would just end up saying the same thing: Two cows shot in the air by a cow sized cocker, or a cow sized mag, or an ACME Cow Chucker... will travel the same distance and hit the ground just as hard. Doesn't matter if it's a moo cow, dairy cow, or even a horse or English teacher with same mass and surface area...

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~physedu/mapletutorial/tutorials/diff_eqs/

Bottom line is: Once the ball has left the gun... that ball is on it's own. However it was propelled... paintgun, spitwad straw, cocker, mag, outta your butt... whatever... it doesn't matter.

It's initially traveling at <B>300fps</B>... end of story.

<IMG SRC="http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=447471">

[robspectre]

Sorry guys. Something personal came up and I didnt get to do my test. I will do it asap. Hopefully one day during the week. If not maybe this sunday. Im going to test range and accuracy. And like I said....If Im wrong Ill admit it. I just got to see for myself.

Oh...and thanks for all the replies. I see this subject is a pretty good one. Maybe somebody will do more post like this one so we can all fight it out. I hate being the bad guy. Why dont one of you come up with some argument we can all get into. I know my subject isnt too original but im from Mississippi and Im dumb.......J/K.....LOL......But I am from Mississippi.

You guys play hard and have fun.
Your Friend.....
robspectre

[halB]

Originally posted by Retardrice


untrue

two piece barrels often use a method called stepdown, where the first half of the barrel should fit the ball perfectly while the second half should not.

the second half of the barrel gives small room around the ball creating quicker reshape of the paintball, therefore, depending on the barrel, paintballs will reshape quicker or slower.

what does that have to do with what i said? it doesnt matter whether u use a two piece, 5 piece, 1.5 piece or any piece barrel, the ball will not be deformed by the airblast. tom only did a test with a crap load of clear barrels to prove that.