i know it's old....but......Automag doubts

[Ragnarok]

Yeah it's come to this....I know very well I cannot continue the tourney's I go to with my rec ball tippmann model 98.....so here I was thinking about "what the hell.....I'll just get an automag RT pro!"

But then again....the autococker look sweet but complex for absolutely nothing.....anyway, it may be a pain to reply to stuff like this(I know, I do it all the time on the tippmann forum).So, I would kindly appreciate any convincing and solid facts I can rub into the faces of the "cocker people"!

Thanks to all who reply....as to the rest of you,just watch me not care...............

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Come Out Guns Blazing !

[This message has been edited by Ragnarok (edited 08-28-2001).]

[Cha0tic]

the mag an cocker are both very nice markers. the main thing that sets them apart(performance wise) is that mags are more reliable and AGD's customer service is the best there is.

if you have an rt, you will get no shootdown and have the fastest cycling gun in the world http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

[MinimagRockin']

Either one would be cool. If you are trying to decide between a stock cocker and the RT I would personally go with the RT. On the other hand if you plan on buying one of those really spiffy free flow this-and-that cockers the choice becomes more difficult. My eventual plans are to replace my minimag with an RT and keep it that way for the rest of my paintballing days.

[Linkin]

I love the mags. But you may want to look into other guns also. Bushmasters are great Electronic guns for a very good price. I might even get one....

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"Shut up when I'm talk'n to you!" -Linkin Park

"Give me an inch, I'll give you a bruise." -Andy Kopcok; Team Image

[Zumina]

RT Pros are too exspensive for what they're worth. They are cut down versions of the original RT but, they cost more. I'd suggest looking around for a used RT (I saw one on PBC yesterday for about $350 in near perfect condition), or, if you're bent on buying new, get a vertical feed cocker for $350, and spend the $250 difference on a swing trigger, a nice barrel, and a bomb. At that point you'll have a cocker with a pull just as short as the RT Pro. As far as having the fastest cycling gun, no one I have ever seen has been able to take full advantage of an RT. The fastest fingers I've seen using an RT were able to do about 10 or 11 (using chronos that calculated the ROF), so don't say "I was shooting 15 bps one time", cause I at least know you weren't.

[Cha0tic]

i did not say that any had taken full advantage of it, i was just pointing out a fact. it is just nice to know that your gun can not have shootdown until it reaches 26bps.

[Monsta]

To many moving parts on a cocker, meaning for every part that breaks you'll be spending you life savings

[MagShooter]

I have owned both cockers and my mag. I kept my mag and got rid of the cocker. If you like to work on your marker, the cocker is the way to go..high maintenance guns. BUT if you want to play a lot without having to fuss with it to get it to work right, go with the mag by far. I plan on getting an Emag here within the next 2 weeks. Basicly, I would get the mag if I were you. MUCH easier to maintain, plus AGD's service surpasses that of WGP.

[Zumina]

Cockers only have problems if some ignoramus that has no idea what he's doing starts messing with it for no aparhant reason, and get's angry at when he cannot figure out what he's done. At which point he blames the company and poor design, strange, never himself. I see it all to often. Some fool who is used to never cleaning or maintaining a gun gets a cocker and complains when it never works right. Just take some time and learn your equipment BEFORE you start ripping it apart and never maintaining it. This is why I feel that 'Mag appeal more to lazy people. Myself being one. I have both a mag and a cocker, but I usually play with the cocker due to the better performance it provides in both accuracy and rate of fire. As far as customer service goes, WGP is just as good AGD. I've dealt with them a few times, and everything went smoothly and I received whatever I needed (they even gave me a banner!). So, I wouldn't rule the cocker out on the grounds that "it's too maitenence intensive". I'd counter that comment with "the mag is such a boring and ugly gun. Gas hog, loud, dated design, big batery pack....."

[Arturus]

SUN WARRIOR - "I have both a mag and a cocker, but I usually play with the cocker due to the better performance it provides in both accuracy and rate of fire... "

The Elves must be at it again.

Ragnarok - Can't really give you "convincing and solid facts" other than the ones you probably already know or heard of regarding both Mags and Cockers.

What I can say is, instead of trying to rub it into the face of 'cocker people'...

Field test both type of markers and go with what you prefer and think will be best for you. Don't go with the hype or what's "in" and "cool", but rather go with what's right for you.

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RT Pro - Chrome Powerfeed Right
Armageddon 68/4500
KAPP Chrome Apoc Drop Forward
12 vt Revolution
Lapco Aluminum Autospirit 12"


[This message has been edited by Arturus (edited 08-28-2001).]

[Restola]

the mag is really a pick up and go -every- time marker. never had a problem except for the time i took apart the little assmebly that you are never supposed to take apart. even then i only missed one game while someone else troubleshooted it (i had no idea i had done anything wrong) and replaced most the seals and o-rings and reassembled it. the games here run 15 min max.

last week a kid with a stock cocker had to rent a gun. he couldnt fix it and everyone around here is too damn fed up to fix these things everytime some 14 year old decides they are a worr games tech.

[magman007]

Ok let me settle this once and for all. Cockers are good so are mags, it is all in preferance. Cockers have diff triggers, cockers higher maintinence, if you get hit in the pneumatics your screwed usually. Mags are less maintinence, simpler design, theres olny like 10 moving parts, they are less gas eficient, but no where as bad as a shocker, mags are not as upgradeable, that is cuz there great outta the box. Ok also there is no great autococker sight like this one yet. Also i have an agd banner that was given to me!, you can call ag and get one for cheep to! I sence some negativity comming form sun warrior and i widh he would stop, plus autocockers are not more acurate nor do they shoot better, accuracy is all in the barrel, and despide beliefs, automag barrels do not vibrate until after the ball leaves the barel

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[magman007]

THAT IS IT! SUN WARRIOR IS REALY An Elf from WGP!!! HAHAHAHAHHA i have done it! Or not? elves have actually been employed by gd to take your kind down, the EIB will be at your door step soon! "GOT ELVES?????????" Army

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[Zumina]

MagMan..shhhhhhhhh!!!
-I've been hit in the pneumatic hoses many times, I have never been "screwed". I just had a messy clean up job ahead of me.
-Look, I love both Mags and cockers, but I'm tired of everyone saying that cockers are crappy guns; especially when their opinions are not based on first had experiences, rather here-say and farce. I thought I'd throw in a little farce to even things out; hence the elves.....

[Steven]

I have shot an AutoCocker for an entire tourny and admit it is a nice gun. Only thing is when I bought my AutoMag there was nothing like it at the time and 10 years latter it is still performing like new http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

My only suggestion is what ever you choose make sure you take care of it. After every day's use when you get home or some time during the week take it apart, clean it, oil it. Maintenance is key to keeping your marker the best it can be.



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Lvl7 68 AutoMag SN - CF00810
Retro Valve
Air America - Armegeddon 4500/68ci
Dye Titanium 14" Boomstick

[magman007]

sory sun warrior but you were just getin alittle to negative for my taste, i understand what you are trying to do but just get your facts strainght please.

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[Arturus]

Tssk Tssk SUN WARRIOR. =p

Using those poor elves as scapegoats, shame on you mister.

By the way, not everyone believes Cockers to be inferior and 'crappy guns'. A good example - Me! Just darn happy with my Rt Pro is all.

Now leave the poor elves alone!

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RT Pro - Chrome Powerfeed Right
Armageddon 68/4500
KAPP Chrome Apoc Drop Forward
12 vt Revolution
Lapco Aluminum Autospirit 12"

[Zumina]

well, you guys were getting a little too negative for my tastes, what with the statement that originated from one's posterior.

[Arturus]

Note the sarcasm in my voice in the post above?

Oh sorry, can't hear my voice.

Either way, it wasn't meant to be 'negative' on my part. More of a playful tone with a touch of sarcasm!

I understand your reasoning for the statements you've made in your previous posts, but it wouldn't be bad to keep the facts straight nonetheless. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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RT Pro - Chrome Powerfeed Right
Armageddon 68/4500
KAPP Chrome Apoc Drop Forward
12 vt Revolution
Lapco Aluminum Autospirit 12"

[This message has been edited by Arturus (edited 08-28-2001).]

[C¥borg]

Cockers are not high maintnace! I've owned 7 cockers and the only maintnance I ever did was oil the gun every three or 4 days of play, and make sure the bolt is greased enough, that is the only performance maintnace I ever had to do, the only other maintnace was cleaning off the outside of the gun if it got dirty, just like I would any gun. The biggest problem I ever had was a jam, and it only happend in a used cocker I bought for very cheap, easy to fix, he hadn't greased the bolt enough.

The biggest reason I like cockers is the sliding trigger, it's just so nice and smooth, the only thing I like better than a sliding trigger is an electronic one. Son't get me wrong, mags are great, but I just prefer a sliding trigger.

[Zumina]

This board needs Italics. That way we can detect sarcasm..

[Arturus]

Sorry =p



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RT Pro - Chrome Powerfeed Right
Armageddon 68/4500
KAPP Chrome Apoc Drop Forward
12 vt Revolution
Lapco Aluminum Autospirit 12"

[Army]

It's the Ford Vs Chevy thing:

My '96 Ranger: 139,000+ miles, on the third set of tires, will get 340 miles out of the 14gal tank (with room to spare). Starts every morning and drives me 50 miles to work, used to drive over 2 hours to work for 3 years.

My brothers '78 Chevy fleetside: four engines in 13 years, 2 sets of tires a year, bumper was torn off by a dirt bike (no, I wasn't riding it!), if it got better than 200 miles from 18 gallons, it was going downhill the whole time. Sold it, got a 2000Ram, 2 sets of tires in 20,000 miles, AC quit, heater leaks. Sold it, now drives a PT Cruiser as of 6 months ago, been in the shop twice for engine problems, brake lights shorted.

AutomaG=Ranger
All other guns=my brothers bad luck
http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/blackeye/linkcoolMIR.gif EIB

[hitmanng]

Ragnarok,
I must say that you need to try both. You will not do wrong with an RT or a good quality properly timed cocker. You can get years of fun and performance out of either. I personally wouldn't count out your Tippman. If you have the money I would suggest the Ballistic sports M98 E kit.
http://www.ballisticsports.com/generic.html?pid=12
These people are from around my home town and so I have seen them in action. They will give you performance on a level of the RT or a cocker but the comfort of the m98 that you are used too.
Just a thought
hitmanng

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Issha zetsumei -- The original "one shot, one kill"

[Arturus]

lol Army.

This has to be one of the more distinct and unique comparisons by far.

Ranger vs your brother's bad luck.

One of those sayings that I'll be looking back to one day. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif



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RT Pro - Chrome Powerfeed Right
Armageddon 68/4500
KAPP Chrome Apoc Drop Forward
12 vt Revolution
Lapco Aluminum Autospirit 12"

[MinimagRockin']

Army your car will go down for saying that, you've just cursed yourself. Also I'm ashamed to see this post turn into a cocker vs. mag thread. How many of these have we all been through? Like 5000 maybe at least? Put an end to this madness.

[hitmanng]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MinimagRockin':
Army your car will go down for saying that, you've just cursed yourself. Also I'm ashamed to see this post turn into a cocker vs. mag thread. How many of these have we all been through? Like 5000 maybe at least? Put an end to this madness.</font>

I must disagree with you on this. This seems far from a Cocker vs mag thread. This seems like a what's a good marker thread and most people say they both are but they are very different. I would ask you to find that at most other gun related forums. I think it is far from madness and actually a good discussion.
hitmanng


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Issha zetsumei -- The original "one shot, one kill"

[slayer]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Linkin:
I love the mags. But you may want to look into other guns also. Bushmasters are great Electronic guns for a very good price. I might even get one....
</font>

Yes, that is what I have heard also. I just can't tell people to buy an RT right away without trying electro triggers. If they like manual shooting guns then get an rt or a cocker. My suggestion is only get a cocker if: 1. you have a good shop llocally that can tune them up
or 2. you have the patience and intelligence to learn how to time them

Otherwise an RT would be nice also, especially since you can get them for so cheap used

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Death smiles on us all. The only thing we can do is smile back. --Maximus

[Ragnarok]

Listen guys....relax,breathe"all is well......all is well...."

you guys pour too much into this stuff and are arguing all the time...did you know that if you guys actually read your posts you see that everything you guys say contradicts what everyone else says(with few exceptions)so take it easy.....

As for the whole thing all i want is a tourney marker,i have the patience and skill for a 'cocker(i am an apprentice airsmith and tech at the local shop,.....that should answer a lot then....)And i know the whole thing about shootdown.....i know everything there is to know....but what it all comes down to is the day to day reliabilty and comfort and style and playability and upgrades.....i will eventually get accustomed to any marker anyways so i'm not worried about how the trigger feels or anything like that!

I do not want to buy electro cuz it's a waste of money for what i do.....i need mechanical...

So stop arguing and someone(preferably a member or moderator)give me some sort of answer.....i already got like 79 answers on the cocker forum that are very convincing.....c'mon guys....get your act together please!

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Come Out Guns Blazing !

[This message has been edited by Ragnarok (edited 08-29-2001).]

[slayer]

If you can fix both then here is the real simple answer. Go play with both, they are both good guns and come back and tell us which one you like. If you don't care after trying them then buy whatever is cheaper?

[slayer]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by slayer:
If you can fix both then here is the real simple answer. Go play with both, they are both good guns and come back and tell us which one you like. If you don't care after trying them then buy whatever is cheaper?</font>

Also what did the cocker owners say?


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Death smiles on us all. The only thing we can do is smile back. --Maximus

[Zumina]

Army - Your brother has poor choice in cars, and he probably beat them to hell on the side. Chrysler's quality control has been, and still is, atrocious. I've seen brand new Neons, 300Ms, Rams have all sorts of transmission and engine problems at less than 10,000 miles. To say your Ranger is a better vehicle is a joke. I've seen more of those in junkyards than any other vehicle. However, cars, like paintball guns, cannot be generalized. I've seen 95' stock cockers that have owned by some less that mechanically astute fellow that never let them down. On the other hand I've seen numerous mags the leak, chop/break paint, sputter, and shoot down straight out of the box. Oh, and as far as being able to shoot 26bps with no shoot down, show me an air supply that can keep up at that rate of fire.

[Zumina]

hey Ragnorak, if you "already know everything there is to know" why are you asking us what kind of gun you shoud buy? You should know by know that any topice concerning Mag vs. Cocker is only going result in a bitter arguement. Too many egos at stake....

[C¥borg]

Cockers and Mags are both great reliable guns. To me the biggest differences in the way they feel, is the trigger, and looks, I happen to think cockers look better, but then I have seen some really nice mags before too (check the pictures section on this site) If you want upgrades, go with a cocker, if you want to just play and not worry about anything else, go for a mag.

Interesting side note, did you know that the Dodge Vipers hood alone costs $12500? I could get a new neon for that! And did you also know that the PT cruiser is built on a Neon frame? And the reason the old chevy your brother had got such horrible milage and bad tire wear is because it wasn't fuel injected, or if it happend to be fuel injected it was back in the early days of fuel injection when they were still learning things (that's why cars from the 80's suck), and I'm guessing it was avery heavy truck, most trucks from the 70's were. As for the company that put's the most effort into quality, go see Toyota.

My rant is done.

[keebler]

ok here is the deal. you either have to sit down and talk with an airsmith or a cocker tech just to be able to fix your gun if it breaks. they are very complicated and confusing if you dont know what you are doing. most problems are timing related, but it is a pain in the arse to learn how to precisely time the gun. if it is just a little off it will shoot funny and not work right, making it missfire and make farting sounds. if you play alot of paintball with freinds in a private woods, good luck. what happens when the cocker goes down and you have no idea on how to adjust the thing? you are out of luck for the day. so many things can go wrong with the gun. me and my friends got together and played, i didnt even play with my cocker the whole day, my bolt was upside down and i couldn't figure out what was wrong. just little things can make it go wrong.

i am not basing this on a one time expirience either. i owned three cocker so far (thinking i had a lemon each time so another one should work better), my 3 freinds all owned cockers too.

every time i played i had to miss the first game cause timing problems when i tried to chrono. i swear i didnt touch any adjustments from the last time i played, and guess what, it came out of time. my other friends all have to get their cockers retimed almost every time they play. the regulator on the pnumatics broke on one of their cockers and he had to send it in to worr games, the other kids cocking rod kept unscrewing during the game, making it misfire and causing nonstop chopping. so he used lock tite and made it stay. two weeks later he chronoed in at 220fps and he couldn't get out the cocking rod cause of it so he played all day like that. the stock trigger frames are so weak it is funny. you can hold your tank and move it back and forth and watch the frame flex back and forth (unlike the stock agd frames which are pretty strong). you have to get your gun retimed every time you get an upgrade for your pnumatics or trigger system (caused me to miss more games).

now cockers just dont seem worth it to me unless you take a tech class on them and get cocker certified or something. usualy if something breaks on a mag you will find the replacement part in the parts kit. everybody says cockers problems are with timing and they realy are. but what gets to me is the fact that if they go wack during a game and come out of time, when you shoot you will most likely chop a ball from it not cocking all the way back and shooting funny.

just go for a mag or another simpler tournamnet gun. not a cocker. if you know alot about the gun and know how to time it, then by all means get one, a properly timed cocker shoots great, but when they go bad, they go bad. mags are great, gas them up and shoot, play the whole day. a cocker you got to gas it up, go through the anoying timing process with the cocking rod (you have to take it out to adjust the volocity). no timing or anything on a mag.

or get a bushmaster, defiant, impulse, shocker, angel, or just anything that is good and simple. trust me, if you get a cocker and you know nothing about them, you will be sorry when your timing goes wack and nobody where you play can time the gun. or you play at a friends house and it goes down and you cant fix it. it is a bummer.

anyways just try them and go with what you like.

[Arturus]

"hey Ragnorak, if you "already know everything there is to know" why are you asking us what kind of gun you shoud buy? You should know by know that any topice concerning Mag vs. Cocker is only going result in a bitter arguement. Too many egos at stake.... " - SUN WARRIOR

Nice point SUN WARRIOR.

Ragnarok - Uh... Actually most of the so called 'arguments' you mentioned weren't even that. No one really lost their temper over this thread or even got close to doing so (at least I hope not). Overall I think if you really read the posts it was a 'thread hoping' not to turn into a mag vs cocker debate. Rather one where the members of this forum tried to be reasonable and fair in their assessments. Even when we picked on SUN WARRIOR for his little elves. *grins*

With the exception of few, if you haven't noticed most in this forum well... Don't care about Mag vs Cocker debates? I mean yeah, we can joke about how much cockers 'suck' and how much more reliable mags are, but in the end.. I think I can speak for the forum and say we can care less? You did want our opinions right? http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'm sure in the cocker/other forums you're getting great ones to further their points of view... Which is one of the reasons why many of us makes this forum our home and not those others. *grins*

Then again someone can always respond to this thread the way you want them to and more power to ya. http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

Like I said in my earlier posts if you're knowledgeable as you say you are; you've probably heard every argument and debate there is to about why 'mags over cockers' and vice versa. Kind of makes the thread pointless, unless your intentions were to help a newer player out into the world of cockers vs mags.


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RT Pro - Chrome Powerfeed Right
Armageddon 68/4500
KAPP Chrome Apoc Drop Forward
12 vt Revolution
Lapco Aluminum Autospirit 12"


[This message has been edited by Arturus (edited 08-29-2001).]

[Army]

Rangers are best, so poo http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

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