too honest?

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

One of my teamates and i were haveing a sort of discussion. Didn't really last long but it still got me thinking. Any of the top pro/am teams are all whipers. I said that a few probably weren't(maybe), but that's besides the point. We were talking about the future of our team and i was explaining that we have to overcome the obstacle of our team being honest. He argued that you can't become a top team by being honest. In order for you to be a top pro/am team, you have to at least play on certain hits. I argued briefly but thought about it. I believe that you can overcome the cheating, granted it would be hard but can be done. What do you believe? It's definitely hard to shoot a guy out when he won't leave after you shoot him. But is it impossible? Is it worth trying? Just succumb to the dishonesty and stoop to their level to get ahead? It's become apparent to me that it's not going to get better, only worse. It seems to me that it is becoming progressively worse. Just forget it all and beat them at their own game?

Side note: I will never intentionally cheat in a game. The closest thing I will ever come to cheating is the unobvious hits that i didn't know where there(IE:top of the hopper, pack, shots that I sometimes don't feel).

[Army]

Honor at all costs.

[Creative Mayhem]

Originally posted by Army
Honor at all costs.


AMEN BROTHER!!


C Mayhem

[Goon]

Personal Pride!

[shartley]

Honesty and Honor are two of the top things in my book.

[FalconGuy016]

Imagine how much better you are if you beat them while being honest at the same time? I never cheated before and I never will

[RamboPreacher]

Originally posted by Army
Honor at all costs. Exactly.
I heard several comments at the PanAm that our team would have made it further if we would have argued more with the refs, or if everyone played at our integrity level.

[Kevmaster]

Quoting FatMan: "Sportsmanship is second only to saftey..."

[Devil]

Good Job everyone...we all need to give this guy and everyone else that plays out there the applause for honesty and integrity! It counts more in life than winning...it's actually winning, but you know how it goes!

Don't ever wipe, don't ever cheat...it will mess up you life!

[xadamx]

i cheated once.... my first game several years ago :( i still feel bad. oh weill, i got my butt lite up. i diserved it. i havent cheated sence

[ben_JD]

Of course, Army's initial statement on the issue is correct, but the true test of your character will come when you lose your first game that "matters" due solely to you not cheating and your opponent wiping. It is that test which will be most difficult.

[digitard]

I have to go with the "honest" ones here .... ya cant respect yourself for winning by cheating ...

Hell, at a local tourny a few years back I was playing for the first time and we were doing good ... shot myself in the foot (yeah yeah i know) cause I slipped when running and "BLAMMO" .. right in the foot ... called myself out, I know a lot of people who would of wiped it cause it was their own shot and that'd been their "reason" for wiping.

Out of the match cause my own shot to my own foot ..lol

Sincerely,
Dave

[Tack]

The thing to always remember, is that eventually a cheating team will get caught. Look at Avalanche. Now I'm not saying everyone on the team knew about the deal, but I am not saying that they didn't. The point is that even if you have one bad apple on you team, you will eventually get caught for it.

Why not play the game fair. Instead of putting the effort into finding ways to wipe a hit, or leak a signal to your team from the dead box, put that effort into getting better as a team. Work on your on field codes, movement, and angles. Plus, think of it this way. If you are a successful team that strives to be honest about all their games, then you start winning with some shady tricks, perhaps not blatant enough be spotted but defiantly shady. Your team will be put in with the rest of the bad teams that have been caught, or suspected of cheating. Every game you and your team play, the reffs will be extra tough on you. Perhaps splatter from a bunker will be called as a hit because the reff feels that you could have wiped a hit that he missed previous, perhaps an old hit that was cleaned off poorly could be thought to be a wipe.

Cheaters will win, that is unfortunately a fact of life, however, they will always get caught, and when they do......Well, look at Avalanche.

It's better to play by the rules and sleep good that night than to cheat and get caught. Just the $.02 worth from a player who got sick of the tourney scene with all the cheating, and attitude.

[RamboPreacher]

Originally posted by ben_JD
Of course, Army's initial statement on the issue is correct, but the true test of your character will come when you lose your first game that "matters" due solely to you not cheating and your opponent wiping. It is that test which will be most difficult.

happened almost every game for our team at the PanAm. No, I am not saying that the other teams were cheeting. I am saying that had we not been as above board as we are, including our efforts to not argue or otherwise discuss "situations" with refs. I know I had hit many folks that didn't get called out, but because I trust the refs, and have a personal policy against arguing with refs or calling them to check an opponent, I must have been mistaken or they were bouncers - at least that's my reasoning. Our team always "wins", even when we come in dead-last, because we have alot of fun!

[dre1919]

If my team and I went on to the top circuits and went 0-100 we still wouldn't be cheaters...to hell with that. We understand that playing fairly and playing hard are more important than winning...and so is having fun. We play because it's a great time for us to go out and play a sport were good at, and it gives us guys a chance to hang out with each other. I prefer knowing that if I'm better on that day than the other team, we win...if we aren't we lose. But to cheat to have to win is really lame...I don't care if there is money involved.

One of the things I'm the most proud of is in my area people know my team as a good bunch of guys to play with. We built a reputation as being guys who show up, play hard, play fair, and don't complain to the refs. We've placed ok in tourneys, even won one, but more importantly people like inviting us back because of our sportsmanship. I think we have a responsibility, not even as paintball players, but as decent human beings to not sink to the level of some lowlifes and cheat others out of what they earned. If you want it, put the work in and go earn it yourself.

[Fred]

there is a very simple solution you know...

don't play traditional tourney ball, I have a ton of fun with just rec-speedball, normal woodsball, and scenario games.

the emphasis on winners, losers, who's cheating and who isn't getting caught cheating just makes for a lot of bad blood.

If your team can't decide on if they can make it in tournies without sacrificing your integrity, i'd venture to say that you, and the sport would be better off if you didn't play them.

just my .02

---Fred

[hitech]

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L
...the top pro/am teams are all whipers....Is it worth trying? Just succumb to the dishonesty and stoop to their level to get ahead?...It seems to me that it is becoming progressively worse.

It does seem that it has gotten worse, not better. Part of the problem is the rules. Allowing a player to continue playing until he determines if a hit actually broke is asking for trouble. MAKE THE PLAYERS RESPONSIBLE. If it were ALWAYS a penalty when you played on after a hit, NO MATTER WHERE YOU WERE HIT, things would change. I'm sure of this as Jim Lively's rules changed to that and it made a difference. However, none of that has anything to do with what you asked. ;)

One problem is determining what is cheating. In my very first tournament (in the '80s) I quickly learned that you did NOT call yourself out for anything less than an obvious hit. Was that cheating? Based on today's NLLP rules, it's almost the same. It creates a very fine line between pushing the rules and cheating.

Another problem is how can you beat another team when they get second chances because they wipe. Well, unless you want to cheat also, you have to be that much better than them. Or, work to change the system to minimize the cheating. I'm not so sure which is more difficult. ;)

[hitech]

Originally posted by dre1919
I prefer knowing that if I'm better on that day than the other team, we win...if we aren't we lose.

But the problem is that is incorrect. You can be the better team that day, but if the other guys are effective at cheating, you lose. That is the problem. To combat cheating, you have to be BETTER just to be EVEN. The biggest problem is that the best solution is not in "your" direct control. Minimize the cheating.

[BTAutoMag]

i have only wiped once and thats when i knew the other guy (1on1) had done it at least 5 times during the game. i got hit in the hopper while running to bunker him because i was getting so frusturated, so i wped it on my side as i swung my gun down by my side, all casual like, and lit him up so badly that he earned the nickname blue that day. latter the same nickname was put on another guy but not from anyfault of mine

[Xerces]

i don't think ill ever play any big tournaments, i just think casual/walk-on play is fun enough. i feel that if enough people (that are good enough to beat the cheaters fair) make it clear to everyone how strongly they feel about it then all the lemmings that think whatever the top teams do is the 'cool' thing to do, they will folow their example.

[HoppysMag]

I agree, Honesty above all else. last year i decided to make that my life creed... if i were to die tommorow atleast i could say i was honest.

[Me]

winning isnt as enjoyable if you kno you cheated. this isnt like highschool :)

[FatMan]

Consider this:

In basketball, often it is accepted strategy to foul, to stop the clock. There is a penalty, and play continues.

One could argue that a team can play the odds and say - if you think you can get away with it and affect the game in our favor, its worth the risk.

The question is - is that what we want paintball to be? Personnally, I say no. But then, I'm not really playing the tourney scene any more.

Clearly, when you talk to those who write the rules and try to enforce them, the intent is that any form of playing on is considered an unacceptable foul. But then again there is the problem that it IS possible to take a hit and not know it.

Properly used, the NPPL rules are in fact, very strict on what is an unobvious hit. An unobvious hit cannot be seen OR FELT. Getting hit square in the back is NOT an unobvious hit. Ref are supposed to look for a reaction to a hit NO MATTER WHERE IT IS. A welt under a hit, no matter where it is is playing on.

One may argue that the penalty for playing on isn't enough to make it clear how serious an offense it is. Currently its 1-for-1. In 5-man that's pretty heavy, but in 10-man its not quite as bad.

No matter the rules or the penalties, though, the refs have to be taught how to call that. One of the biggest problems in paintball is that most ppl think anyone who has played paintball can be a ref. In fact, most players CAN be a ref, but only if they are properly taught and supervised.

In the mean time, teams like the one in question should learn to do the right thing. If you are out, call yourself and get off the field BEFORE the ref even gets there. You might loose a few more games for a while, but you might pick up some sportsmanship awards. Either way, once your skills and teamwork develop, you won't need cheating to be winners.

FatMan

[hitech]

Originally posted by FatMan
...But then again there is the problem that it IS possible to take a hit and not know it.


It is POSSIBLE, but I claim that it happens very, very infrequently. You may not know if it broke, but you know that a paintball hit you. I'm trying to remember a time when I was hit in a tournament and had NO IDEA that I was hit. None come to mind. The problem with the NPPL rules is that it leaves WAY too much up to the discretion of the refs. Make the players responsible for calling themselves out when hit. If they play on with ANY hit, they are penalized. You can have greater penalties for an obvious hit, but it should ALWAYS be a penalty. Sure, every once in a GREAT while someone will be penalized when they did not deserve it. However, far more people are being penalized today when they don't deserve it. It takes the form of losing the game because someone played on. And losing the game is a pretty stiff penalty.

BTW, you make many good points that I agree with. I don't want paintball to become a what can I get away with. Good points.

[Cypres0099]

My team and I know the value of playing fair, and we just played our first tourney as a team. We won without any cheating.

I talked to a ref afterwards and he said that he saw quite a bit of cheating throughout the day. Whether he called it or not I don't know.

He has also reffed many major events and played with several pro-teams. He told me to try to name a team that he hadn't seen cheating. Every team I named he had an instance where they had... The last one I asked was Avalanche; :p he just laughed and walked away. I wonder why...

[fuzzyolary]

If I follow the logic as established in the first message of this thread, eventually (probably soon) the "World Champions" could most accurately be described as the 'best cheaters in the sport'.

Personally, I'd rather not have to strive to attain that goal. That really wouldn't be much fun. It also seems like a whole lot of time and effort to put into something that I would try and conceal from my Mother. . . . and I'm 44.

Think about it. I'll bet you feel the same way.

In order to expand as human beings we need to be open to consideration of ~all~ perspectives. You can not be looked down on for asking the questions you have posed, they are legitimate. But in this case, from what I can see in your FIRST message you already have your own answers. Just accept them.

[BTAutoMag]

if youre hit in the pack or the side of the gun i sometimes dont notice it

[Brak]

my friend wiped like 5 times at an OUTLAW WOODSBALL (who the hell cheats in an outlaw game in the woods?) game we played. after he told me im like "man call yourself out thats stupid", and he told me how hes getting ready for tourneys because in tourneys "to win, you have to wipe". i thinks thats crap and if your good enough a player you have no need to wipe

[einhander619]

Well, it looks like I'm the first guy to admit it, but yeah, I wipe every once in a while, but only under strict conditions. First, I'll never wipe in a tourney, or a 1 on 1, or any other contest. I agree with all of you, that kind of behavior takes paintball back to the stone ages. If you can't do it honorably, don't compete. Now, the only time I wipe is playing recball with buddies, when somehow I get hit right(and I mean like one, maybe two seconds) off the break. Honestly, I'm there to have fun, and having fun means actually playing paintball. If anyone has a huge problem with this, look at it this way: I'm giving people an opportunity to beat me with skill, and not just an errant shot!

[RamboPreacher]

bah...
getting shot off the break is part of the game! As a matter of fact, at the field I play at, I may spend a half a hopper, long balling to the other side, in hopes of hitting someone off the break. Yes it happens and yes, it is a lucky shot, rewquiring no skill, but it is a "tactic" and it is a hit.

[Kevmaster]

yeh. we do no shooting on the break in practice...but thats only practice. in a 3 man tourny, we took 4 men. one cheated....i axed him(im the captina). next game...another cheated...he got ditched aswell...so it ended up as a 2v3 for the games...we started a man down...sad, but i dont tolerate it

[Badmovies.org]

If I get hit, then I want to get the heck off the field. I am "dead" and should not affect the game. Want to see a mad Marine? Cheat and let me catch you at it. Had one guy shoot me in the neck, by putting his gun against my neck and firing, after one such argument. He went to the hospital when the issue was settled.

Honestly, the game is about honor and good sportsmanship. When somebody gets me with a lucky shot, I am likely to yell, "Good shot!" as I stand up and put my barrel plug in.

Cheating well is no measure of a man, it is the measure of a worm.

[RamboPreacher]

Originally posted by Badmovies.org
[clip]Cheating well is no measure of a man, it is the measure of a worm. hehehe - a dirt crawling, slithering, filthy worm at that.

[Sooky]

I believe the Russian Legion has a reputation for playing honestly.... you might want to use them as a model to follow. Just a suggestion.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Some of my teamates are really bent up on Strange. I really don't know if they're honest or not, but they've accomplished quite a bit.

Now i realize that everyone in here is going to pretty much say "No cheating". I couldn't agree more. I get a little out of hand sometimes cause i can really take 2-3 shots to the chest and not even feel them. I've been through several practices and have this occur. No doubt in my mind that if i were to do it in a tourny, i would have no problem with any kind of penalty they would enforce for doing so. Definitely something i've been working on and getting better at. My team captain has made it a rule that if he catches you cheating, you're off the team. One of the reasons why i'm with and like my team so much. I'm just worried because I really want to at least be a top amature team, if not pro. I know for a fact that we have the talent, we just lack the experience. I would really hate for us to come together and get sent back empty handed because those two people i keyed off the break slid on it and took out half the team.

I know i posted this once before but it still stands true here. "NPPL Rules" has got to be the biggest oxymoron that i've ever seen. What's the point of rules if they don't get enforced. They should have a clause "Except for teams that are popular and are cool with the refs".

[aaron_mag]

Off topic but someone mentioned getting shot off the break and wiping because you want to "play".

I've been to a couple local tournaments but I really don't have the time to take it too seriously (family, work, you know how it is...) Prior to playing paintball I thought it was a pretty lame activity. I mean I enjoyed sports with that were a true challenge (martial arts, lacrosse, football, etc.)

Then I played it and realized it was incredibly challenging. Like most moronic newbies that are used to physical sports I thought I could do things like outrun and dodge paintballs! I have a friend who was quite a track star in his day. I was smiling to myself as he explained his strategy of using his speed to dodge paintballs. Sure enough he was out on the break :).

My point is that here is this wonderful sport that is extremely challenging. It is hard to avoid those stupid little paintballs. Lets not ruin it! If we ignore the basic rule of the game we are a joke. If I started wiping I think I would lose all interest in paintball altogether.

[awg9tech]

I've played rec ball going on 6 years. My buddies and I started thinking it was about time to get in some tourneys. We talked to our local tourney players and set up some scrimmages to get ready for our first “real” game. All went well, but a lot of guys gave us tips for wiping.
Needless to say, we came away from those scrimmages with a bad taste in our mouth and a pit on our stomachs (for the cheating part, not the butt kicking they gave us). We all vowed not to cheat. I can honestly say for me and my teammates, that we have not and will not cheat. We came away from that first tourney (novice) placing 4th out of 13 teams. Not too bad we thought.
That bad taste still lingers and it really goes deeper. I’ve started to notice all the shady stuff that runs rampant. Some of our local stores have actually refused to sell me/us AGD stuff (under many a premise…AGD is going out of business, takes to long to get the order ect. ect.) when it comes down to it, all they really want is to sell us a new $1k+ marker. Or, they will dog a newbie on his new Spyder or Tippman they just bought, instead of welcoming him to the sport. I’ve seen much more, but those are the blatant examples.
This post started with the string “Too honest”. We’ll folks, there is no such thing. We are not being honest enough…on or off the field.
:mad:

[FatMan]

hitech,

under MY reading of the NPPL rules, the only hits that can qualify as non-obvious are those to the pack, gun, or sole of the shoe.

Possibly some glancing hits to the side of the mask.

Of course you hit the nail on the head - who is establishing that standard for the refs on the field?

FatMan

[hitech]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a penalty for playing after you are hit? Is is actually awarded? Watching recent videos of some tournaments suggests that there rarely is. However, I haven't been to any recent tournaments either.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by hitech
Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a penalty for playing after you are hit? Is is actually awarded? Watching recent videos of some tournaments suggests that there rarely is. However, I haven't been to any recent tournaments either.

Uh, yeah, at least in the NPPL rules there is quite a bit a verbage about "playing on" which is a penalty. There are rules about what is and what is not playing on, how freight-training and playing on are related and specific procedures for when and how a player must check for a hit. The penalty depends on whether the infraction affects the course of the game or not.

According to the rules, if ap player is hit anywhere that he can SEE or FEEL the hit or even somewhere he might not feel it, but the ref observed a reaction indicating he DID feel it, and the ball breaks, the player must immediately check the hit and if broken, call himself out. If he cannot check the hit, he must call the ref or a team-mate to check it (if no ref around) and they must do so immediately. Any delay in doing so is playing on a costs a 1-for-1.

If you'd like a more detailed reference in the rules I can get that for you (I ultimate from time to time, so I'm REAL up on the rules).

FatMan

[Me]

thats the thing about my local tourny the MAC in maine. everyone frowns apon wipping. i think you get kicked out if you wipe. its a tourny just for fun, and there are always great prizes

[hitech]

Originally posted by FatMan

According to the rules, if a player is hit anywhere that he can SEE or FEEL the hit or even somewhere he might not feel it, but the ref observed a reaction indicating he DID feel it, and the ball breaks, the player must immediately check the hit and if broken, call himself out. If he cannot check the hit, he must call the ref or a teammate to check it (if no ref around) and they must do so immediately. Any delay in doing so is playing on and costs a 1-for-1.
FatMan

I'll have to reread the NPPL rules. As I read it you could continue to shoot while having your teammate/ref check you. Another problem I see is that too much is left up to interpretation. I've also seen A LOT of playing on in the videos, and not much for penalties. BTW, do you think there is anything wrong with making the players responsible for ALL hits? If they shoot after being hit there is a penalty assessed? Thanks for the discussion. Even though I don't play tournaments anymore and am not likely to start, tournament rules is still one of my favorite subjects. :D

[dre1919]

Originally posted by hitech


But the problem is that is incorrect. You can be the better team that day, but if the other guys are effective at cheating, you lose. That is the problem. To combat cheating, you have to be BETTER just to be EVEN. The biggest problem is that the best solution is not in "your" direct control. Minimize the cheating.

That's not entirely true. I agree with what your saying, but just because somebody "won" didn't mean they actually "won". If my team goes out there and plays hard, and fair, and we leave with the feeling we won the tournament despite coming in behind a cheating team, then yes we "won". They won the battle by playing dirty, but we won the war by sticking to our morals and playing like champions. The scoreboard or record book may not reflect our effort because of the cheating, but we'd know...and anybody who watched would know too. Your right, most of the time you aren't in control...so until they find a way to completely eliminate cheating (doubt that'll happen) you can either play as hard and skillfully as you can and know how well you did even if you may have gotten cheated, or cheat yourself. Then, you really wouldn't be any kind of "winner".

[hitech]

Originally posted by dre1919
If my team goes out there and plays hard, and fair, and we leave with the feeling we won the tournament despite coming in behind a cheating team, then yes we "won"... The scoreboard or record book may not reflect our effort because of the cheating, but we'd know...and anybody who watched would know too.

Yes you would know. However, and I speak from experence, it's still not EVEN CLOSE to the same. There is a very hollow feeling if you are not declared the "winner". :(

However, I you would probably feel worse if you know you won by cheating. However, I don't know how that feels. :)

[Blazestorm]

I've talked to many pro/am/nov players and they admit they do wipe on occasion, for example "Mapp from Naughty Dogs" remarked "Ah common man we all know I f***ing wipe all da time!" at STP a few weekends ago... I didn't mind, I played on a hopper hit once not knowing it was gun hits, ref pulled me and I asked him why "hopper hit there buddy"

soo yah... :)

[Ultimator]

Just while we are on the subject of cheating, has anyone seen the new Traumahead video Badlandz. It's the Chicago Open I believe. I didn't notice any cheating for the most part. In fact most of the players called a ref if they thought they were hit. There was one case of INCREDIBLY blatant cheating. I think it came down to a 1v1 between Kevin Jones from Bob Long's Ironmen and one guy from the All-Americans. Kevin Jones is making a move and suddenly falls to the ground (purposely, he didn't trip or anything he fell backwards). When he comes back up there is a completely obvious bright pink spot on his head (no it wasn't there before I checked) and he starts looking in another direction on the field, I guess from where the hit came from. Kevin Jones plays on and runs up on the guy and gets hit in the hand. He (Kevin Jones) starts yelling something like "You're hit!" and sticks his hand between his legs and wipes the hit. After the game the captains and the refs were talking and the Ironmen actually ended up winning. I couldn't believe it.

Other than that, I think a really good idea is to have like 5 cameras set up on the field. This way if anything was questioned they could just play back the tape (kind of like football.) Yeah it's a little far-fetched but it would help a lot. Another idea is to have a lot more and better quality refs. Anyway .. I guess that's it.

(Edit: Made the story a little more clear)