Hmm Strange realization about tourny guns

[magman007]

Ok, as we all know cockers and angels are the most popular guns for tourny players, as mags used to be. The thing that gets me is that people like slower cycling guns for thier tourny playing! I mean that cockers ang angels are slow cycling compared to an e-mag, rt pro, em1, and a sandridge f5(yes i realize it is a cocker). So why dont more tourny players who are hard core cocker fans pick up an f5, and why dont those "Love that mouse click trigger" people come on over and pick up an e-mag? im confused by this, all the tourny players are like h yea my gun is fast and cool. So if they want fast and cool, why not an f5 or an e-mag ao an rt pro??? I just thought this was odd that tourny players use slower guns than they could be usiing.

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[PsychoMag]

I think the reason for the lack of interest in the sandridge cocker is that the gun is even higher maintenance than the cocker, and very few parts are interchangeable...I saw one at a tourney, and the dude was fixing the thing all day long, and it didnt deserve bragging rights either...

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PsychoMag..."Dogger"
RTP00440, Benchmark Offset Adj. HPA Cradle, Pro-Connect, 12"AA, 12"DYE SS, 12"Boomie, 14"JJ Ceramic, 68/4500 NitroDuck Tuffy, 12Revvie, Warp.
Team ArchAngels
www.angelfire.com/extreme2/archangels"
No Skill, No Talent, All Heart" ~ Oh Pawlak

[Muzikman]

It's because most serious tournament players play with what they are comfortable with. For the guy who as been shooting cockers for the last 10 years, changing over to an Emag would be out of the question. It's like the same reason why Hockey players use the same pads they have used since junior leagues and baseball players using the same glove for years. It's what works the best for them and it has been shown to be a reliable gun.



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Jason "Muzikman" Beam

68 Automag
68 Automag (Pumpmag) w/ 6-Pak+
Automag RT
Sydarm

http://www.pittsburgh-music.com/paintball

[RiceRocket]

Here's my take, based on playing NPPL's.

First, many tourney players like to have "hot-rod" guns. Angels and Cockers are the most popular in the NPPL's because of this. I think it gives the individual player a sense of having a better than stock gun. With the abundance of upgrades/aftermarket (some useful, some just for show) parts for these two particular markers, players tend to have more confidence in what they have in their hands. Not to forget to mention the intimidation factor of a team that is carrying around $1300 - $2000 markers. For the most part, the Mags, E-mags, and RT Pro's don't differ much as far as looks. There's definitely a jump in performance from the regular Mag to the E-mag, but to the eye, it's old school.

Secondly, much of it comes from people seeing what the winning teams use. Many of the dominating teams from before, mainly used Cockers and Mags. New teams follow suit, choosing markers based on what pro and top amateur teams use. With the emergence of the Angel and their marketing strategy, top players/teams were given these markers and have been successful. Again, you find new players wanting to emulate their favorite players, i.e. Lasoya and Avalanche, SC Ironmen, GZ, and Strange.

Third, support. WDP and WGP tend to be at all the big events as of late. If not WDP or WGP specifically, there is always some company or store representing them that can work on their markers. You'll always find Cocker and Angel techs on practically every top team. We had a few people come to the Shocktech booth in Atlantic City just to have their Cockers looked over before the tournament. WDP was set up under the main vendor tent also.

I think more tourney ballers do not use the F5 for the simple reason that it isn't proven. I know a guy who swears by it, his Sandridge does rip. But you won't find Sandridge at all the NPPL's. If it goes down, those who can't afford to have more than one top level gun are out of luck. They'll need to borrow someone else's, which means it won't feel familiar and a lack of confidence may follow.

As for why you don't see more E-mags and RT Pro's, my opinion would be that you don't see many high profile players using them. When I watched other games I still saw Mags out there. Mags have a particular sound to them and they are easy to spot, at least for me. Some players don't like the powerfeed design for sighting reasons and for the popularity of vert feed design. Some claim it's hard to clean a break in the powerfeed, while other don't care for the trigger. Another issue is the barrel-to-paint match. You'll be hard pressed to find different ID Mag barrels and the fact that many barrel manufacturers have focused on making Cocker and Angel threaded barrels because of higher sales. I've even been told that people prefer screw-in barrels because they don't don't move when they shoot. AGD has addressed all these issues with the modular body E-mag.

AGD listens to the tourney players also. The new designs (Modular E-Mag and the Jax Warriors Super Mags) are an amalgamation of ideas from tourney players. Once these are perfected, I think you'll see a renaissance of the Mag. There are still certain things that need to be redesigned, though, before you'll see them in the hands of many players. The cooperative work between AGD and Shocktech has produced the SFL E-mag, which I think will be a hit. There are still more improvements for that gun also. The one that was on display at IAO and at the NPPL AC Open definitely has the "hot-rod" look and has been received very well. I personally am excited to try out the production SFL when it debuts.

I realize this isn't the case at smaller tournaments, but it goes to show how teams use what successful teams use. Also worth mentioning, I noticed a lot of other electronic markers being used by top teams aside form just Cockers and Angels. There were Intimidators, Matrix, Shockers, and Impulses. I used my Retro Mag for most of the tournament, and also Matty Davis' (Jax Warriors) Super Mag for the semi's and finals.

The bottom line is that Cockers and Angels are the thing right now. Proven, with support to match. And when the new E-mags start coming out, we'll have the support that AGD has always been known for. Even though you don't see as many Mags as before, AGD has always been there at the tournaments. The "Love the mouse click trigger" people will soon have a another marker to choose from.

Sure, "fast and cool" are definitely..."fast and cool." But that's not what wins tournaments. The teams that are tactically and technically efficient will always come out on top over teams who have that fast and cool guns. The ability to spit more paint out than your opponent definitely has its benefits. But those who don't break paint and shoot straight and consistent with every trigger pull will win. For the tournament player, they should choose guns that fits their individual style of play; that is durable and reliable; that they are familiar with if something goes down; and that they can get back up and running and shooting straight after a ball break.

On Aftershock, we've got them all - Cockers, Mags, Angels, and Intimidators. It's a matter of preference, no one gun manufacturer dictates a specific gun all of us have to shoot. Ultimately, this is a great benefit to us.

Sorry for being long-winded. Hope it clears some things up.


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Manny
Aftershock

[magman007]

WOW thank you manny thats really help full, so you use a retro mag? not an rt or an rt pro but a gaad ole pimped out retro mag? wow thats cool i never knew that, i have also noticed the mag sound, while out at the iao i could here all the back blocks clicking away and there was one distinctive clicking noise of a guy with a mini mag it was really cool. i thank you for takint time to type that term paper and i really appreciate it. Do you plan on sticking with the retro mag or are you planning on going e-mag??? id love to here your imput, thank you again.

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[cphilip]

Nice response Manny. Excellent observations.

[constant airhead]

price in my mind is a major factor. That f5 conversion is what $500, $600?. you can buy a brand new bushy for less than that. As for airguns design guns the rt pro is in the same range as a bushy. If you had a choice would you take a mechanical trigger or an electro? Then the emag is a $1000. making it far more expensive than anything but an angel or an f5. Angel have been around for 5 years and have a huge following. because of this any new player looking to get into the sport are far more likely to see an angel at there local field that an emag. They also see far more angels in the magazines and in the hands of a pro than anything else. When was the last time you opened a magazine and didn't see an angel? Now think emag. No real comparision is there. My personal opinion is that airguns has over priced themselves in each of there target areas. I loved my mag, but for the price difference. I will take a bushy anyday.

[magman007]

i personnaly dont like the electro trigger, thats why i bought an rt pro! i coullda gotten an e-mag and may still get the conversion,(tho not likely) i like the mechanical trigger, that is also why i want a cocker

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[C¥borg]

Sandridge higher maintnance? When I had mine (it wasn't a conversion, bought the full gun) I only oiled it occasionally, kept the bolt greased, and generally just wiped paint off like I would any gun, it never went down on me once, I shot at least 20,000 rounds through it. The only reason I got rid of it was because a guy offered me his Dark Angel and a westwood cocker for just my F5, I should have never done that, and I plan to get another F5 when I have the money again, but only as a backup, I like my e-mag better http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Puckz]

The F5 takes a bit more technical know how when it does go down... but a properly setup gun that the user didnt screw with wont go down any more than any other gun.

I play lots of tournaments and use my RT. I've been using Mags for the last 2 years. I like the way my rt feels and love the way it shoots. I can buy whatever I want, but my RT is working for me, so why change it?

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Mikey Smith
About Paintball Dude
http://paintball.about.com
paintball.guide@about.com

[RiceRocket]

magman007

Yep, I still use a good ole' Mag with a Retro valve. I've been playing for 11 years, 9 using a Mag. I've owned a BBT custom Cocker that Danny Love put together for me when I first became friends with him. Used it at World Cup several years ago when I played as an insert player. I wasn't familiar with it completely even though I practiced with it for weeks. It shot great, but for my style of play, it didn't work. I used my Mag after one game. More of my friends have shot it than me, and as I've watched them, it works great. I've also practiced recently with an Impulse. It works great too, but there is no one on Aftershock that can work on them if they go down. It was light and built tight for my style, but I think it's too temperamental. No faith in it. So, back to Ole Faithful. My personal gun has been worked on by my brother, AGD certified tech. It's as light as we could possibly think of, with an all aluminum Dye Boomy, a 45 ci 4500 air system. Nothing on it that doesn't need to be there. No flash, black and silver, but it works for me. Probably one of the reasons I made it on to Aftershock. Shouldering the same gun for 9 years, snap-shooting is second nature. I get questioned by teammates if they see me holding anything else. I do plan on trying the new SFL E-mag when it comes out. The trigger pull is effortless and it has the same feel as my old Mag. If it can come close to the weight, I'll be shooting a new Mag.

[FeelTheRT]

I'm a hardcore Cocker user and i don't see the point of shooting fast. Your skill level is still the same even with the most fastest shooting gun. With my Cocker, i ususally can shoot about 6 bps, if i got a fast shooting Mag, say an Emag and i could bounce out 13 bps, i doubt i would be getting more players out.

The reason i currently switched from a Mag user to a Cocker user is because Autocockers are just very upgradable and many mods you can do yourself. Each Cocker is unique to the player and no two Autocockers are alike.

I know you'd think i'm crazy but i truly do find Cockers tend to be more accurate. Now, i ususally shoot my RT with a good matching paint, but in my personal prespective, i find the balls comming out of Cockers to fly more straight. I'm not saying Cockers are anymore accurate than any gun but just something personal that i'm comftable with.

Maybe i'm just hypnotized by the moving back block http://www.automags.org/ubb/smile.gif.

[FeelTheRT]

BTW Magman, I've seen some Cockers that have extremely short, light and smooth pull that can be fired almost as fast as an electro.

one of my team mate has a Cocker that has a 2mm pull http://www.automags.org/ubb/wink.gif.

[Nitroduck]

I agree with manny expecially on one point, hot roding.......Thats what alot of people like, the fact that they are the ONLY one to own a gun looking like thiers (notice how many pro teams have thier own edition guns? I think practically EVERY team does now). Cockers and Angels offer a better degree of customization than Mags DID (but with the modular, allows for milling).

People want to mill a gun to make it custom.
Can you do that with a Mag? Nope. Thats why people go for guns with more meat on them to mill.

Also, you forgot one big thing....Angels are just as fast as Emags. Although the RTpro is 26bps, you never see a person attaining near this. And for the same reason, WDP can claim thier Angel does 220bps because thats its maximum cycle rating. Autocockers can do whatever thier owners finger can attain. For some, that can burst 3 balls in 1/5th of a second which is fast for most people.

One final thing.....Sponsorships.....

WDP and WGP BOTH offer nice payments for winning tournaments, I think thats the #1 reason AGD ever lost ground to start with. They sponsored 3 teams with guns, and 1 extra person with a gun as far as I can remember......With the fact of so many companies making aftermarket guns (like Cockers), gives the Cocker makers MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more money to work with for sponsorships. 2 Mag makers (PTP and AGD) cannot make a dent in the cash WDP, Warped Sports, and the other 10 some Angel makers put up. And the same reasoning can go with any other highly used gun.

In tournaments, money talks. Thats why they use gun X instead of gun Y , its as simple as that.

[Zumina]

You're forgetting that everyone still thinks that the cocker offers better accuracy and range. It's partially true, but not to the extent that some beleive.

[Zumina]

Oh, and the Modular body was a step in the right direction for AGD. The twist lock barrel concept was cool for a time, but with every shot the barrel actuall vibrates in the breach area. I think this atributes to the "sub par" accuracy of the mag. Screw in barrels are the way to go. Not to mention the MOD body makes the E-mag look like a regular gun as opposed to a foolish looking tube with a grip frame.

[magman007]

sun warrior actulay you are wrong, whilst speaking with tom kaye at the iao he said that most people think that the vibration causes inaccuracy which is actually wrong! the barrel vibrates after the ball has left the barrel, so your vibration therory is wrong

edit- spelling

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[This message has been edited by magman007 (edited 08-28-2001).]

[magmanpaintball]

When I had my cocker i did not like it because it never worked and i did not have the brains to fix it. Now with my mag i easily know the problem it it breaks but it never does. My choice for tournament gun would be a mag cause i think they are the most reliable high end semi out there.

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68 automag classic
chrome p/f body
14inch pmi ceramik barrel
68 4500 psi nitro duck tank

[Zumina]

Magmann, I'm interested in what Tom said. I've always thought the barrel vibrates once the bolt moves and is air applied, why would it vibrate only after the ball has left?.....I feel dumb for not knowing the trust, allow me to adress Mr. Kaye on behalf of us and our fellow AOers. There's nothing better than clearing up some confusion.

[magman007]

ask him in the main forum, i may have miss underdtood but i believe i am correct. that is what he said. you may want to ask tho to make sure

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you ever notice how elves do everyting???

[daveymag]

Hey, Manny, it doesn't look like anyone on this thread mentioned it, but congrats on the victory in AC! I heard that you guys where rippin it up.

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I am trying to see things from your point of view, but I just can't get my head that far up my butt.

Getting bunkered is like SEX.....
In prison!!

[apache]

This is for Manny or any other front guy... I play front too in our team but I have one serious problem with my Mag. I can't shoot well on the run. Either I don't hit anything or I chop balls because of accidental short stroking. With my friend's Angel I can eliminate guys while running.

Question: Do you shoot while running (and achieve something too) or do I just need more practice?

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-- Apache / raakakone.cjb.net (http://raakakone.cjb.net)

[AGD]

Thanks for the info Manny!! We are all really glad you are here to give your opinion in such a clear manner. Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk more at the tourney, I'll try and call you this week.

AGD

[RiceRocket]

Thanks daveymag. I've been waiting for this one for a long time. Hopefully, it will mark the return of our dominance.

Apache, if you like using your Mag, then I'd suggest practicing a little more. You can make a conscious effort not to short stroke. I, personally, don't have that problem when shooting on the run if the particular game requires me to do so. I don't want to criticize your form without seeing you play. I rely on my speed to get to my bunker and set up while my opponent is still running. But if I need to shoot on the run, I make sure I shoulder and hold my gun in the same position as if I were stationary. However, if you find it easier doing it with an Angel, go for it. You seem to have more confidence just from reading your post. Everyone has their own preferences.

[Hasty8]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by constant airhead:
Angel have been around for 5 years and have a huge following. because of this any new player looking to get into the sport are far more likely to see an angel at there local field that an emag. They also see far more angels in the magazines and in the hands of a pro than anything else. When was the last time you opened a magazine and didn't see an angel? Now think emag. No real comparision is there</font>

Have to disagree with you here. I have been playing since Summer of 1999. I've played against an Angel once. Last week at High Velocity. I own an Emag. As well as two Tippmann 98's. I have also seen way more 98's on the field in the past....three months or so.

Why did I choose the Emag? Let's see. Angel? Way to much money. Cocker? At a big game a guy kept complaining that his hoses were bursting due to the difference in ground elevation. Apparently his cocker was set for a lower elevation then we were at or something like that. Way to confusing for someone of my limited intellect. The Emag? The fabled AGD Customer Service and the fact that if the battery dies you can still use it.

On a funny side note, I was cleaning my Emag last weekend {read: looking for any excuse to hold it} and of course my 3 year old was there. He does have his own goggles that I made to fit his head. A SKUL, just like his dads with a shortened strap. Anyways, he wanted to fire it as he always does and I was messing around in mechanical mode, loving the awesome trigger kickback. I lock it downn into the shooting shoe and let Dusty take a few shots. After about three pulls he got the perfect amount of pressure on the trigger and the thing went full auto. Apparently, just as the trigger was being pushed back he would push it forward. It brought a tear to my eye.

Anyway. I truly feel that the Mag family of markers are the way to go for high end markers just as I feel that for under 300 you can't get anyting better than a Tippmann 98. Those things are work horses.

[DarkRipper]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by magman007:
I mean that cockers ang angels are slow cycling compared to an e-mag, rt pro, em1, and a sandridge f5(yes i realize it is a cocker</font>


This is classic. An ANGEL is SLOW? http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

ROFL
ROFLMAO

Where do you guys get this stuff? http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Hey, everyone!! An angel is slower than an EM-1!!!

Come on man. Think before you post.


http://www.automags.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
DR


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Owned a PF mag in 96.
=)

[mykroft]

An Angel is slower than an EM-1, technically. As per Manike, the angel tops out at 18bps on an LED, which is a wee bit faster than the LCD (larger bolt=slower cycle rate, slightly lower that is) and the EM-1 is 19bps. not that it matters, it's definitly easier to get an Angel up to speed (Especially those wonderful Cobra Angels with the 1x trigger). 1 bps doesn't really matter, they're both fast guns.



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Mykroft Holmes IV
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My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.

VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA,14" JnJ Ceramic, AGD Intelliframe Blade, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'

[PsychoMag]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by DarkRipper:

This is classic. An ANGEL is SLOW? http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

ROFL
ROFLMAO

Where do you guys get this stuff? http://www.automags.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Hey, everyone!! An angel is slower than an EM-1!!!

Come on man. Think before you post.


http://www.automags.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
DR


</font>

An Angel IS slower than an EM1...just because its an Angel doesnt mean its perfect in every way. Oddly enough, the EM1 can cycle at 19bps without any shootdown with a warp...What can an angel do...13 i think??

The sandridge i hear is serious garbage. Im not trashing the gun...but it needs alot of improvements especially withthe rumors of a real electro from WGP



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"You want a shot at the title?"
PsychoMag..."Dogger"
RTP00440, Benchmark Offset Adj. HPA Cradle, Pro-Connect, 12"AA, 12"DYE SS, 12"Boomie, 14"JJ Ceramic, 68/4500 NitroDuck Tuffy, 12Revvie, Warp.
Team ArchAngels
www.angelfire.com/extreme2/archangels"
No Skill, No Talent, Just Heart" ~ Oh Pawlak