Why I like full auto...

[Trench_Riader]

Ok first off let me say I love my model 1451 Rainmaker with a retrofitted select fire board.

I'm also quite fortunate in that two of the three feilds I play at have not over-reacted to supposed safety concerns and still allow full auto fire.

many people (ironicly its often the people who defend full autos) make the statement that a full auto has no advantage over a electo gun with a light trigger. This is clearly nonsense. Full auto fire with a real firearm tends to be less accurate than fast semi-auto fire due to felt recoil. Felt recoil is almost non-existant in most paintball guns. On the the other hand, repeated trigger pulls, even with the lightest of electro triggers, tends to pull the weapon off it's aim. The net effect is that paintball guns behave the exact opposite of how a real firearm on full auto would: full auto is actually more acurate for sustained fire.

In addition, full auto fire is far easier to sustain while on the move than repeated semi-auto trigger pulls. Try to keep up steady area fire at a fast jog or greater if you don't believe me.

Finally, there is the psycological effect. For many players, newer ones more so than experienced ones, incoming full auto fire is intimidating. A sustained full auto burst is far more likely to suppress (or "tuck" for you folks who prefer PC terms to military ones) than a series of unsteady semi-auto shots. This is even more the case when the gun in question is extremely loud...like my beloved Rainmaker.

Granted, a good electro trigger can produce rates of fire a bit higher than most full auto guns. However, most players cannot sustain that rate of fire for any length of time and as noted above accuracy suffers with repeated trigger pulls.

Most of those who are opposed to full auto fire raise the spectre of "over-shooting". This is a valid point. However is one is careful and has the right training, this issue is becomes invalid. For example, I'm ex-military and am experienced in full auto fire. I also own three legal licensed full auto firearms. So as you might expect, I fire in short bursts rather than ripping the whole hopper and do other things that make my full auto both more effective and safer than someone less trained would. But it's not that hard of a skill to learn.

Finally I feel that most fields that ban full auto fire are doing so as a knee-jerk reaction to hysterical claims. I'm all for safety, but safety paranoia is a bad thing. Perhaps a more apropriate aproach would be to restrict full auto fire to mature players who have demonstrated proper skill and fire control?

Am I off base here? What do you think?

Discuss...

"Trench Raider"
yes I use my Minimag on the field that doesn't permit full autos...

RMOG AO BEOG

[FooTemps]

Well, I'm against full auto unless it's for testing...

You say that the overshooting issue can be addressed by practice... How many people do you want to train? You say it's a basic skill to burst fire but inexperienced players tend to freak out and fire like maniacs or hide. You don't want the maniac on full auto... Semi is to keep shots in check so that there is minimal overshooting.

The reason fields don't like full auto is because people are too inexperienced with it and usually can lay half a hopper on one person. Newbie or pro, the player WILL get upset about that. I mean, would you like 20 shots (bounce, hit, whatever) on you? Sure, getting shot 4-6 time isn't bad but it's still bad enough to annoy an experienced player or scare a newbie out of playing paintball ever again.

You see, the full auto issue is not about rof. It's about overall safety. You don't want any hotshots going full auto and putting 20 balls on one player. It might just break out into a fight. It's not good for the field's rep, it's not good for the player's rep, and it's not good for paintball's rep either.

You also mentioned something about making restrictions. I think that restricting full auto to experienced players would be a bit... dangerous... It'll lead to quarrels about who can play full auto and who can't. Not to mention, people can act mature yet still abuse the full auto. Newbs will also think that the full auto is an advantage against them. It may lose business for the field if people feel like they'll always be on the losing team.

Full auto also makes you feel like you should shoot. It's more power, why not use it? It's not practical to shoot so much paint. Yeah, I know people can go through a case a day but it'd more common with full auto. No one really wants to spend so much money.

IMHO, you are wayyy off. Yeah, full auto may be *easier* to play with... but want's easy games? I'd rather play it at a more difficult level that requires more skill. Full auto seems to be more like a crutch to me.

(Yes, I know I'm talking from the field owner's prespective too. Business is business and you want paintball fields to stay alive and you want the sport to grow. Full auto just gets in the way of safety. Fields don't want people to get hurt.)

[Creative Mayhem]

I have to agree/disagree on this one. I like to play with my Angel on F/A, but only when I have EVERYONE'S permission, not just the field's. I there is one person on the field that doesn't like the idea of F/A, then it doesn't happen. I also think F/A is a useful tool during practices, you can get your players used to being under heavy fire easier with F/A. However this is the extent to which I would use it.

I don't care for having tender parts on my body turned into one of picasso's works of art. It's hard enough for excited newbies or experienced players to control the amount of paint they throw at another player. We all know that balls can bounce, so in turn, we add a few more balls just to be certain. Well in F/A, you can't exactly do that because more than your share of balls are on the way, and if you get caught up in the momment, it is extremely easy to fire ungodly amounts of paint.

Now imagine the usual field scenario:

You are at your field with only six other experienced players. They all have full auto, but so do the thrity or so newbies that have come out for their first day of paintball. Now, tell me would you rather have all of those newbies carrying F/A's? I dont think so, we all know that newbies are notoriuous for shooting anyone that moves.:) I for one wouldn't like that. Or how about you stray into enemy territory and they all have F/A and were lying in wait for you? How would you like three of four players dump on you with F/A's? Think about it... 3 guys shooting 10bps at one target... that turns into 30bps. Now you know that wouldnt only last for a second, they would dump on you with no remorse.

I know this is a little exaggeratd, but with all the cheap electros that are capable of F/A, this may become more common than you think. Do you really want newbies, or less experienced players dump on you? I don't think so.

Should everyone be allowed to have F/A? It's a question only you can answer for yourself. I think it's as you say, up to the field to set rules on F/A, but in the end the responsibility falls on the person with the F/A to use common sense when using it.

This, of course, is just my opinion....:D


C Mayhem

[kenshinkandon]

A lot of fields that ban full auto aren't doing so because they feel it's unsafe. It's often required by there insurance company. If you or someone else was to use a full auto during a game and someone got hurt and filed for a suit the feild owner would be liable for the suit because the insuracne wouldn't cover the lawsuit due to the feild owner not abiding by the clauses hled within most if not all of paintball insurance contracts.

So you should consider the view of a feild owners that like to make money and have a equal and fair games so that other players that come in a rent equipment can keep up with those who invest a lot of money into there markers. So that all of the players feel challenged and satisfied with there day on the paintball feild.

Other players may also dislike the full auto advantage because there marker is incapable of firing in full auto. You should play fairly and equally if you have to pull the trigger every time you want to launch a paintball sure it may be a hard for you but it's how everyone else on the field is playing why shouldn't you.

[mykroft]

Frankly,

Having seen the rain of paint a properly set up Matrix or Angel in Semi can produce, and having been on the receiving end of most electros in Full Auto, go ahead and cripple your rate of fire.

[Butterfingers]

Trust me you DONT want full auto. Ive gotten myself into Full Auto Games before with the E-magnum and ive walked off the feild bloody. Its just too much especially with what todays guns are capable of...

Repeated hits puts holes in 3/4 inch gypsum board.. in other words it will make you bleed.

Check out...

www.butters.org

within a few seconds you have a 8 inch hole in 3/4 in wallboard...

[LawFox32]

a friend of mine told me that if you have the Full auto set to 9bps it is an added phsycological effect b/c when people watch war movies and they see the big 50cal machine guns shooting full auto, those guns shoot around 9 rounds per second, so when they hear that on the field its pretty scary


just a lil input

[Crimson_Turkey]

Our feild allows full auto up to 7bps. I use 5 on my E-98c.

[BajaBoy]

im on both sides.. its nice if your gun isnt maxing its self out on f/a (maybe 5-9bps) but my last june i went with alot of friend to play at jackfrost. We played sup-air, tom had a booyaah on a mag. Wasnt fun for anyone.

when were prac. then i could see a need for it

[mykroft]

Most F/A moarkers are limited to 9 or 13bps. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of an EMagnum, but anything else is no big deal IMHO.

Frankly, apart from testing, I don't see the need for modes. I've never had my Angel out of Semi/B and my Chaos Defiant was only out of Semi by accident a couple of times.

[314159]

a reason that i have heard, which is also a reason i do not like full auto in acutal games is as follows.

paintballs usually shoot in a close group.
with semi you only fire one shot.
with full auto, the gun will cycle as long as the trigger is down.
if an accident happens that would cause someone to loose an eye, they would only loose one probally with a semi. they would probally loose bolth with a full auto gun, because of the grouping of the shots.
loosing bolth eyes is often followed by suicide.

[Trench_Riader]

Several people made good points, but I'll reply to only a few to save space. The thing I love about AO is that we seem to be able to discuss contraversial issues like this rationaly. For an example of the opposite end of the spectrum, go check out the paintball USENET group...


You say that the overshooting issue can be addressed by practice... How many people do you want to train?

As many as needed. The skills needed are fairly easy to aquire. Think about it. Most F/A boards shoot at 9-10 bps or 550-600 rpm. That's the rate of fire of a first or second generation sub machinegun (like my MP40). Controling that rate of fire is simple...even with a real firearm. I tend to keep the RM on f/a in all games that allow it. The rate of fire it's capped at allows me to snap off single shots when needed, but most of the time I fire 6-8 rounds bursts rather than just lay on the trigger. About the only time one shold do that is when providig area fire to hinder movement. (sweet spoting for you PC types..)

More more point before I move on...it was speculated what the effect would be of large amounts of newbies using f/a. Well first off, I feel it should be limited to those who can show the discipline to use it. However should a clueless newbie use such a mode, the end result would probably be similar to an inexperienced person using a real f/a firearm. Ever seen a frist time machinegun shooter? It's amusing. In a paintball game the inexperienced full auto shooter is going to burn all his ammo against an opponet well under cover, not hit a thing, run the hopper dry, and get prompty bunkered while he's reloading.



Yeah, full auto may be *easier* to play with... but want's easy games? I'd rather play it at a more difficult level that requires more skill. Full auto seems to be more like a crutch to me.


I would consider it a tool, rather than a crutch.



A lot of fields that ban full auto aren't doing so because they feel it's unsafe. It's often required by there insurance company

Agreed. HOwever the regs of the insurance company are based presumed problems and safety paranoia rather than the facts. The fact of the matter is that nasty overshoots happen even with a ban on f/a in place. The sensative triggers and high rates of fire of today's electros makes that happen.


Having seen the rain of paint a properly set up Matrix or Angel in Semi can produce, and having been on the receiving end of most electros in Full Auto, go ahead and cripple your rate of fire.

Ah, but how accurate is that high rate of fire? How long can you sustain it?


but in the end the responsibility falls on the person with the F/A to use common sense when using it.


Amen. A point well made.

And i'll close on that...

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG

[halB]

instead of full auto, why not just learn to pull the trigger?

[rdb123]

I airsofted for years before switching to paintball. And yes, most guns do offer full auto. We used them, had fun, no overshooting, etc.

So why would you say it would be different in paintball?

I do agree though that it wouldn't be fun if your position were being hosed by an Emagnum (well darn, retrovalve recharges 26 times a second, scary). Maybe a limit of 7 per second would be good. If not, maybe fields could allow full auto if they made it a requirement that everyone wear chest protectors. :p

-Ron

[mykroft]

Trench-_Riader:

With a Matrix+Halo B, I can empty the hopper in 1 burst.

[petefol]

who would distinguish who is allowed to use full auto and who isn't. and who needs full auto if your retromag can do 15+bps semi.

[Dayspring]

Again, it comes down to you saying that the responsible ones get to use it, and the others don't.

A) Who's to say who is and who isn't responsible? What's the determining factor?
B) I can be perfectly well behaved in front of you, but turn your back and I can break the rules just like anybody else.

It breaks down to this. Safety. Not perceived or otherwise. Safety for safety's sake. The reason forbanning full auto is the same reason that fields require trigger guards. Accidental shots. Semi auto- one accidental shot. F/A- untold numbers of shots. Imagine an accidental pull happens. 1 shot, your chances of injury are less than a string of shots.

Let's be PROACTIVE and ban full autos. It only helps the image of paintball. People already think its dangerous. By removing one of the concerns regarding safety, we are improving our sport's image.

[digitard]

I think it should be up to the players on the field and a set limitation if accepted ...

In some cases people are too "cautious" to accept a gun like that, then maybe allow a demonstration, if the players agree then cool .... if they just have too many reservations you should have to go into Semi mode because you shouldn't take away the fun of others. Even with the E guns your still semi even though you can sling paint like no other, people still know its a semi marker and they have a feeling of ease compared to using a full auto.

If accepted then you should have a set BPS like you are all mentioning about 7/9bps ... this way even know your full auto players know that your shooting at a speed they and others can match with semi's if they try.

I have no problems with full auto if setup right ... I just think it shouldn't effect others faith in the game.

Sincerely,
Dave K

[Jack & Coke]

FULL-AUTO vs TODAY'S HAIR TRIGGER ELECTRO SEMI

Topic: SKILL => valid argument for or against

Topic: SAFETY/OVERSHOOTING => invalid argument; flawed logic

1 second of FULL-AUTO at 12-15 BPS

vs

1 second of SEMI at 12-15 BPS

Think about it... there are STILL 12-15 balls flying through the air!

[Evil Bob]

As in all things, there is a time and a place to apply full auto fire... fire suppression, covering a retreat, masking a flanking attack, etc., they all involve spraying a given area with a sufficient quantity of lead to keep the enemy at bay and allow your forces to move unhindered. This is a natural thing for trained military personel, you learn it in basic training, you reinforce it throughout your military career. It is but a tool in the hands of people who are trained for it... But even well trained people make mistakes.

The military made a decision to switch from the M16A1 (full auto) to the M16A2 (3 round burst) for 1 reason... panic fire. Even well trained troops are capable of panicing and doing something that goes against their better training and logic. You can empty a 30 round magazine in seconds on full auto; on 3 round burst, it takes multiple trigger pulls to empty the magazine. It's also alot easier to put more rounds on a distant targets with 3 round burst then it is full auto.

What then happens when that full auto firepower is placed in the hands of a novice? They go nuts with it, spray everything in sight and run out of ammo fast. In a war, the last thing I want is a clueless body behind me on full auto spraying everything in sight.

Same thing in paintball, I want someone I know I can trust with that kind of firepower to NOT shoot me with it by mistake. New players can barely handle semi auto, full auto is an accident looking for a place to happen. Even in the hands of someone who knows when and where it's appropriate to use full auto, I'd still prefer to not see it available as an option on the playing field.

Why? Simply because tempers run high due to adrenal poisoning, the same reason why people hurl themselves into rocks, poison oak, do all manner of stupid things because it was the first thing that came to mind. I've walked tourny fields that had rocks and rebar sticking out of them and told our experienced front players to NOT dive into their first objectives no matter what. Even after seeing the crap on the field, one of them dives anyway and shatters his kneecap, ripping an 8 inch gash in his leg. Asking what he was thinking at the time, he responds with "not getting shot".

How many pro teams bonus ball? They're hardened players who know better, so why the hell are they doing it? Disrespect? Revenge? Attitude? Who knows? Add a full auto marker into the equation and that 3-4 bonus ball turns into 6-10.

The point I'm making here is that even experienced players make mistakes. I feel it's best to avoid the whole full auto scene completely simply due to the fact that it gets out of hand even with the guys who know better. Whether they lost their cool, made a judgement error, what have you, it's easier to just say "no" and avoid it all together. We avoid the bad press, the lawsuits, the safty concerns, the insurance company ignorant paranoia, etc. by simply saying "No, we won't allow full auto" and leaving it at that.

You want to play full auto, go play rogueball in your backyard where no one else is liable but you.

-Evil Bob

[xen_100]

what ever happened to "its one of the rules, live with it"? if the field doesn't allow FA, then dont use it. I have a booyahh on my spyder, I dont see any more acuracy with FA than I do with semi. with the super-short and light trigger, constantly hitting the trigger does not throw your shots off like you say it does. "hitting" the trigger consists of barely moving my finger, does not move the gun at all. I can run and shoot at about 5-7 BPS really easy. FA IS a crutch. everything you said proves it.

[petefol]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
1 second of FULL-AUTO at 12-15 BPS

vs

1 second of SEMI at 12-15 BPS
most people can't even pull 7bps tho, and some new electros are capable of up to 20+bps

[Fred]

or you could just use ATS guns with 25 round clips... its hard to sustain FA when you're playin clip-ball... :)

the clip empties in about 2.5 seconds...

I think FA has its place in paintball, but it needs to be respected as something that is potentially dangerous.

---Fred

[hitech]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
I've gotten myself into Full Auto Games before with the E-magnum and I've walked off the field bloody.

Why does ANYONE here need more of an explanation than that? WHY? None of you who are defending FF/A have addressed this comment. Why not?

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by petefol

most people can't even pull 7bps tho, and some new electros are capable of up to 20+bps

maybe "most" of the people you play with....

Goto any tourny and you'll see everyone with hair trigger electros (Timmy's especially) in the 12-15 range...

[rdb123]

Originally posted by hitech


Why does ANYONE here need more of an explanation than that? WHY? None of you who are defending FF/A have addressed this comment. Why not?

Mainly because it never happened when I was airsofting. People have enough common sense to stop shooting when they hear "Ouch!" One thing to remember is that in airsoft, you are using plastic BBs, not a breakable ball.

Keep in mind though that these airsoft guns did not fire 18bps in F/A.

-Ron

[hitech]

Originally posted by rdb123
Mainly because it never happened when I was airsofting.

That is a whole different animal. The energy imparted from an airsoft BB is much less than a paintball.

[davidb]

You proposed the idea of granting F/A to people who have shown the discipline necessary to use it properly. Obviously, the people who have the discipline to use it would be the skilled players, while the newbies would obviously lack that discipline.

So, by your logic, we take the good, experienced players, who are already at an advantage, and give them F/A, while leaving the new players, who have cheap semis, unpracticed trigger fingers, and a lack of communication skills and general knowledge without it? Even with balanced teams, it's going to end up being a shoot-out between the guys on each team with skills and F/A, while the low ROF newbies sit tight and try not to get shot. I fail to see where this improves the game in any way.

One of the local fields here allows unrestricted F/A, but it is rarely ever used. Last time I remember anyone using it was the first time a couple of guys brought two of the original Intimidators to the field, after they had just been released. Full Auto is something that, in my experience, is propounded by newbies (who have yet to learn better), and those who would rather play "war" than paintball.

[rdb123]

Originally posted by hitech


That is a whole different animal. The energy imparted from an airsoft BB is much less than a paintball.

Have you ever been?

[hitech]

Originally posted by rdb123


Have you ever been?

Nope. Just using physics. ;)

[halB]

Originally posted by rdb123


Have you ever been?

its quite true, airsoft bbs dont even leave a welt most of the time.

[HoppysMag]

paranoia on the insurance agencys part keeps the eyes in peoples heads...

when u use FA the winner is the one with the biggest wallet. we will play a game, me with my phantom VS u and ur RainMaker 10 balls each... is FA still a tool or a crutch?

[rdb123]

Well that depends if I have a clear angle on you. ;-)

-Ron

[MinimagRockin']

Full auto is silly. It's completely uneccessary. For one thing there is going to be alot of people that your playing with that aren't going to have that capability so it's unfair in that respect. Why would you want to use full auto when no one else on the field is using it? Also no tournaments that I know of allow it, so your not going to ever be able to use it on the highest level of play (such as pro). Plus personally I don't think it would be as fun pointing your gun at where you want the paint and then just sitting there watching the paint fly out. At least in semi your actually causing each paintball to be fired. Lastly you said you only use short bursts so why can't you just pull the trigger 3 quick times?

[petefol]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


maybe "most" of the people you play with....

Goto any tourny and you'll see everyone with hair trigger electros (Timmy's especially) in the 12-15 range...

well im talking about just playing at a local field, there may be a few people with a fast trigger finger, but the majority of kids arent that great. and i think a better question rather then just "should F/A be allowed?" is should it be allowed in just am/pro tournys, or should it be allowed all around? playing in a tourny is alot different cause the refs are usually watching better and the level of skill is alot higher.

[Orange Crush]

Holy smokes, I cannot believe the amount of whining I have seen on this thread. I have been reading the forums for several weeks, signed up last week, and this was the thread that made me actually decide to post.

Full auto is dangerous, it promotes over shooting...wah wah wah, if you are that concerned, perhaps we should all go back to pump action guns, or maybe that's a bit too much and we should revert to bolt action nelsons. While were at it, all guns should be set for 250fps at the factory with no way to adjust the velocity, that way no one will turn it up on the field to get that extra distance. There was once a time when semi-auto's were considered dangerous and unfit for play. With the rate of fire available to most electro's nowadays, even in semi-auto, I think this point is moot. I have yet to see any player pop off one or two rounds out of his angel or his emag...its always a hail of paint, most players are easily capable of the 7-9 bps that most full autos are, its simply a matter of preference. Paintball has risks, getting shot a dozen times by a modern marker is one of them. It doesn't kill you, it just doesn't feel good. It certainly isn't anymore dangerous. Next time, you'll make a better move. If you can't deal with it, sideline yourself.

On a side note...most players, when firing semi-auto continue to engage their target until they know they score a hit, then they stop firing...the reason for the overshoot, is that with the rate of fire of modern semi-autos, by the time the firing player realizes the hit, and stops stroking the trigger, there are already 5,6,10,12 balls in flight behind the one that scored the hit. With the full auto rate of fire factually not being significantly more than a decent semi-auto, the time from realized score to trigger release is no longer than normal, and would yield the same amout of additional hits. Just some food for thought.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
Holy smokes, I cannot believe the amount of whining I have seen on this thread. I have been reading the forums for several weeks, signed up last week, and this was the thread that made me actually decide to post.

Full auto is dangerous, it promotes over shooting...wah wah wah, if you are that concerned, perhaps we should all go back to pump action guns, or maybe that's a bit too much and we should revert to bolt action nelsons. While were at it, all guns should be set for 250fps at the factory with no way to adjust the velocity, that way no one will turn it up on the field to get that extra distance. There was once a time when semi-auto's were considered dangerous and unfit for play. With the rate of fire available to most electro's nowadays, even in semi-auto, I think this point is moot. I have yet to see any player pop off one or two rounds out of his angel or his emag...its always a hail of paint, most players are easily capable of the 7-9 bps that most full autos are, its simply a matter of preference. Paintball has risks, getting shot a dozen times by a modern marker is one of them. It doesn't kill you, it just doesn't feel good. It certainly isn't anymore dangerous. Next time, you'll make a better move. If you can't deal with it, sideline yourself.

When you play w/ semi you don't bleed. That's why we play with it. I've been overshot on full auto it bled. I think it was 4 shots right below my ear, 1 shot on my tank, 1 shot on my arm, 2 shots on my chest, and 1 shot on my hopper. Sorry, but a newb w/ full auto is scary...


On a side note...most players, when firing semi-auto continue to engage their target until they know they score a hit, then they stop firing...the reason for the overshoot, is that with the rate of fire of modern semi-autos, by the time the firing player realizes the hit, and stops stroking the trigger, there are already 5,6,10,12 balls in flight behind the one that scored the hit. With the full auto rate of fire factually not being significantly more than a decent semi-auto, the time from realized score to trigger release is no longer than normal, and would yield the same amout of additional hits. Just some food for thought.

True, you probably have the same amount of balls in the air, if you have a good trigger finger.

[Dayspring]

So I suppose that Tom Kaye, being one of the manufacturers that is leading the charge against full auto makes him a whiner too huh? :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Orange Crush
Holy smokes, I cannot believe the amount of whining I have seen on this thread. I have been reading the forums for several weeks, signed up last week, and this was the thread that made me actually decide to post.

Full auto is dangerous, it promotes over shooting...wah wah wah, if you are that concerned, perhaps we should all go back to pump action guns, or maybe that's a bit too much and we should revert to bolt action nelsons. While were at it, all guns should be set for 250fps at the factory with no way to adjust the velocity, that way no one will turn it up on the field to get that extra distance. There was once a time when semi-auto's were considered dangerous and unfit for play. With the rate of fire available to most electro's nowadays, even in semi-auto, I think this point is moot. I have yet to see any player pop off one or two rounds out of his angel or his emag...its always a hail of paint, most players are easily capable of the 7-9 bps that most full autos are, its simply a matter of preference. Paintball has risks, getting shot a dozen times by a modern marker is one of them. It doesn't kill you, it just doesn't feel good. It certainly isn't anymore dangerous. Next time, you'll make a better move. If you can't deal with it, sideline yourself.

On a side note...most players, when firing semi-auto continue to engage their target until they know they score a hit, then they stop firing...the reason for the overshoot, is that with the rate of fire of modern semi-autos, by the time the firing player realizes the hit, and stops stroking the trigger, there are already 5,6,10,12 balls in flight behind the one that scored the hit. With the full auto rate of fire factually not being significantly more than a decent semi-auto, the time from realized score to trigger release is no longer than normal, and would yield the same amout of additional hits. Just some food for thought.

[raehl]

All manufacture of full auto markers and boards should be stopped, and it's getting there, and that is a VERY GOOD THING.


I'm not going to get into the reasoning for it here because this is a public forum, but I will say that it has nothing to do with paintball games or paintball safety. A little thinking and most of you can probably figure out why with the hint above.


- Chris

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
...With the rate of fire available to most electro's nowadays, even in semi-auto, I think this point is moot. I have yet to see any player pop off one or two rounds out of his angel or his emag...its always a hail of paint, most players are easily capable of the 7-9 bps that most full autos are, its simply a matter of preference...

Orange Crush is correct!http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Today's highly skilled tourny players + Today's super electro semi's = full auto... don't kid yourself! It's true.

If today's super fast electro's are considered legalfor tourny play, then all forms of shooting should be legal (i.e. full-auto, RT sweet spotting).

If you're really concerned about safety (bleeding), then ALL guns should be capped at something like 5 bps and 250 fps.

I personally think hopper ball is the way to go. It WILL control how much paint you shoot.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
There was once a time when semi-auto's were considered dangerous and unfit for play.

Really? I can't remember hearing anyone ever saying that and I started playing around 1986 and have played ever since. I NEVER heard anyone say that semi-autos were dangerous. Never.


Originally posted by Orange Crush
With the rate of fire available to most electro's nowadays, even in semi-auto, I think this point is moot.

I don't since many semi-auto paintball markers are capable of firing MUCH faster in full-auto than ANYONE can in semi-auto.


Originally posted by Orange Crush
the reason for the overshoot, is that with the rate of fire of modern semi-autos, by the time the firing player realizes the hit, and stops stroking the trigger, there are already 5,6,10,12 balls in flight behind the one that scored the hit.

Let's see, the max velocity for a paintball is pretty much 300 fps. If your rate of fire is 10 bps that puts 30 feet between paintballs. To have 5 paintballs in the air at the same time your target must be 150 feet away. To have 12 paintballs in the air at the same time your target must be 360 feet away. At 150 feet while firing at a rate of 10 bps you might be able to put all your rounds on a target the size of a person. Maybe.

I'm not talking about someone shooting for a second after you are hit. I not even talking about them shooting after they know they hit you. I'm talking about them continuing to shoot for several seconds after I have raise my free hand and marker! Sorry, they overshoot because they don't care if they do. They overshoot because they got taken out (over shooting after they are eliminated) because their fragile ego was damaged.

BTW, rate of fire is NO excuse for overshooting. If you can't control it, then you have NO business using it. Paintball is not a war. It is a GAME.

BTW, I'm all for full-auto, but ONLY if it were capped at 5 bps.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by hitech
...they overshoot because they don't care if they do. They overshoot because they got taken out (over shooting after they are eliminated) because their fragile ego was damaged...

In this case, it doesn't matter if the guns were FULL-AUTO or ELECTRO SEMI, that jerk would still light you up 10-15 bps regardless!

This is a problem with the user and not the gun...

Limited paint tourny's, like the recent Las Vegas ones, are a great way to control the excessive "spray & pray" styles so prevalent in today's game. "Spray and Pray" styles retard paintball tactical skillz and promote accidental overshooting.

I believe the nature of limited paint tourny's would allow the use of full-auto. The players would be forced to control their shoots or suffer the consequences of running out of paint. (controlled bursts as opposed to spray & pray)

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by FooTemps
When you play w/ semi you don't bleed. That's why we play with it. I've been overshot on full auto it bled. I think it was 4 shots right below my ear, 1 shot on my tank, 1 shot on my arm, 2 shots on my chest, and 1 shot on my hopper. Sorry, but a newb w/ full auto is scary...

Honestly, the worst injury I ever got playing paintball was from a pump gun, also hit me right in the neck. (its a tender spot) The guy stuck his gun around the corner of a bunker, blind firing, put the barrel right against my neck and fired. I bled like crazy, had a black bruise from my jaw to my shoulder blade. Maybe since some people that play are idiots we should just ban paintball altogether.


Originally posted by FooTemps
True, you probably have the same amount of balls in the air, if you have a good trigger finger.

Then why are you concerned with FA?


Originally posted by Dayspring
So I suppose that Tom Kaye, being one of the manufacturers that is leading the charge against full auto makes him a whiner too huh?

Yes, yes it does. Just because you are an active and well known figure doesn't make you right.


Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Today's highly skilled tourny players + Today's super electro semi's = full auto... don't kid yourself! It's true.

Thanks Jack & Coke, but I seriously doubt it takes a tourney level player to equal the fire power of a full auto.


Originally posted by hitech
Really? I can't remember hearing anyone ever saying that and I started playing around 1986 and have played ever since. I NEVER heard anyone say that semi-autos were dangerous. Never.

Sorry you didn't get out much. I've been playing since 88 as well, and I remember it being a big deal....and it did change the way paintball was played, you didn't see speedball fields prior to the semi.


Originally posted by hitechI don't since many semi-auto paintball markers are capable of firing MUCH faster in full-auto than ANYONE can in semi-auto.


I disagree, other than maybe warp feed powered guns, almost all guns are limited by the gravity feed not the cyclic rate of the gun, and most decent players with a semi can run the ball drop dry. All those crazy numbers you see about 26bps are all done in a lab environment, with a force feed of some sort....its not possible for a player to reach those numbers...besides, if that's all you are worried about, get a chrony that measures bps and limit full autos to 10bps.


Originally posted by hitech
Let's see, the max velocity for a paintball is pretty much 300 fps. If your rate of fire is 10 bps that puts 30 feet between paintballs. To have 5 paintballs in the air at the same time your target must be 150 feet away. To have 12 paintballs in the air at the same time your target must be 360 feet away. At 150 feet while firing at a rate of 10 bps you might be able to put all your rounds on a target the size of a person. Maybe.

Okay, lets play semantics.... the point is the same, overshooting is controlled by the firer not the ROF...as I believe you even said yourself...


BTW, rate of fire is NO excuse for overshooting. If you can't control it, then you have NO business using it. Paintball is not a war. It is a GAME.


I couldn't agree more.

Ever since the advent of the semi auto, and speedball style feilds I watched paintball evolve from a game of stealth and patience to a game of high action, high aggresion and high quantity of paint slinging...he who slings more paint wins. If I can't shoot you through the bush, I will demolish the bush with a case of paint so I can get you.

I've only played with a full auto once, and yet I have sustained a fair amount of injuries and overshoots...so I seriously doubt banning them is gonna bring my stats down.


Originally posted by hitech
BTW, I'm all for full-auto, but ONLY if it were capped at 5 bps.

How bout we measure the fastes firing semi auto person on the field, and let the full auto's cap be equal to their rate of fire? Seems fair to me.

[Evil Bob]

I agree 100%, it's the guy/gal pulling the trigger that is the source of the problem, not the marker itself. It doesn't help at all that the markers today are capable of firing at faster rates then the average player can produce manually. The result is anyone can pick up an FA marker and spray with the best of them regardless of skill level. The problem is when to stop spraying... a seasoned player will know when to stop, a novice won't, that's where the problem lies is in the experience level.

So what do we do? Eductate and then leave it up to the individual to make the right choice or do we remove the choice all together and eliminate the potential for catastrophe before it happens?

Hopper Ball is a great way to limit spray and pray, forced paint conservation. I have played in serveral hopper ball games, really brings it back down to the fun tactical/skill level again.

-Evil Bob

[battlegroup]

How many inexperienced players have you seen hide behind a bunker and fire blind with semi? I have seen too many do it. Now put a F/A in their hands. Not a good idea. They can't see where the balls are going and fire erratically. For a field that doesn't have tall nets, this will lead to people shooting into parking lots, etc. I agree that it is easier on the finger, but If your finger gets tired, then you are shooting too much. There is no reason for F/A. with the incredibly shot/light trigger pulls these days you can get 9-13 bps semi-auto and more controlled.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
...Ever since the advent of the semi auto, and speedball style feilds I watched paintball evolve from a game of stealth and patience to a game of high action, high aggresion and high quantity of paint slinging...he who slings more paint wins. If I can't shoot you through the bush, I will demolish the bush with a case of paint so I can get you.
...

Another great quote!

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by battlegroup
...with the incredibly shot/light trigger pulls these days you can get 9-13 bps semi-auto and more controlled...

more controlled???

How???

I totally disagree.

Shoot 9-13 bps via FULL-AUTO => pull once, let go when you want to stop.

Shoot 9-13 bps via hair trigger electro semi => spastically twitch your wrist or run your fingers until you acheive that comfort rythm.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
more controlled???

How???


Trip and fall. Tightly grip the marker in the process and pull the trigger.

Semi-auto = 1 shot
Full-auto = many, many shots

Full-auto is less controlled. An accident results in many, many shots. Some kid bunkering you on full-auto equals many, many extra shots. Semi-auto is maybe 5 shots. Maybe that many.

[Jack & Coke]

Regarding diving and bunkering moves: you are correct.

Regarding regular fire fights: there's no difference.

Here's the solution:

We should stick paintballs on the ends of sticks and bash each other...

[hitech]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
Trust me you DON'T want full auto. I've gotten myself into Full Auto Games before with the E-magnum and I've walked off the field bloody.

This is still the bottom line. To me, this is proof that full-auto is dangerous. You disagree? If so, why?

BTW, I said full-auto capped at 5 bps because that seems to me to be a reasonable compromise between safety and usability. However, even at that it may be too much. An accident will still involve multiple rounds. But at least the kids bunkering you at full-auto won't be so bad. ;)


Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Regarding diving and bunkering moves: you are correct.

Hence the safety concerns. That is where most of the opposition comes from.


Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Regarding regular fire fights: there's no difference.

That would depend on the ROF cap. Anything over 8-10 would be an advantage. I doubt you can find anyone that can exceed 10 bps for an entire hopper. Certainly MOST people could not.


Originally posted by Jack & Coke
We should stick paintballs on the ends of sticks and bash each other...

Why? Full-auto is dangerous. Is semi-auto? Maybe it is at a certain ROF, but I'm all for a ROF cap. BTW, did you see the video of Tom shooting "Man Cow" at 20 bps full-auto? It was a sobering video.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by hitech
...I said full-auto capped at 5 bps because that seems to me to be a reasonable compromise between safety and usability...

I like this idea...

[MinimagRockin']

Will allowing full auto make paintball more enjoyable? No way. It's fun to pull the trigger a bunch of times. I don't have an FA gun but even if I did I wouldn't use FA whether they allowed it or not.

[Dern]

The whole "Full Auto can/will make you bleed thing" is a bit hyped- Semi auto can do it JUST AS EASILY. The speed and angle of the impact with your skin will determine whether your skin will tear and bleed more than repeated shots. If we can't accept some risks in paintball, why do we bother playing? Every time you play you risk getting shot which means you could: Lose an eye/sight, start bleeding somewhere, lose your hearing, break a bone in your body from falling or something, etc.
However, I can see why Full Auto is dangerous, especially in the hands of a player with an itchy trigger finger or a leaden trigger finger. Just the fact that there will PROBABLY (but not absolutely) be more paint flying makes the risk of gettting hurt higher, but how much more so? I'd say most of those shots are for cover fire or are just plain missing the target.
Being able to shoot fast has its merits, but I think that they don't benefit you so much as taking more time to AIM or get in a good position. Pump players can and do get just as many players out as people with all other guns, whether they be semi or full auto. So why is Full Auto even necessary? I don't think its necessary to have in a gun. Firing modes like 3 or 6 ball shots are cool, thats what I'd normally fire off with a semi.
In the end, I don't really care whether someone has full auto or not. To me, it just means I take that guy out first or as fast as I can so that his potential F/A threat is gone. I care more about what the person behind the gun is thinking/doing than about his/her gun. If fields don't want to have Full Auto guns on their fields for whatever reason, just turn your marker to semi auto and use the 1mm trigger pull that most full auto-abled guns have.

No need to lash at each other... It is supposed to be a fun game after all.

[blnk162]

Originally posted by Trench_Riader
Ok first off let me say I love my model 1451 Rainmaker with a retrofitted select fire board.

I'm also quite fortunate in that two of the three feilds I play at have not over-reacted to supposed safety concerns and still allow full auto fire.

many people (ironicly its often the people who defend full autos) make the statement that a full auto has no advantage over a electo gun with a light trigger. This is clearly nonsense. Full auto fire with a real firearm tends to be less accurate than fast semi-auto fire due to felt recoil. Felt recoil is almost non-existant in most paintball guns. On the the other hand, repeated trigger pulls, even with the lightest of electro triggers, tends to pull the weapon off it's aim. The net effect is that paintball guns behave the exact opposite of how a real firearm on full auto would: full auto is actually more acurate for sustained fire.

In addition, full auto fire is far easier to sustain while on the move than repeated semi-auto trigger pulls. Try to keep up steady area fire at a fast jog or greater if you don't believe me.

Finally, there is the psycological effect. For many players, newer ones more so than experienced ones, incoming full auto fire is intimidating. A sustained full auto burst is far more likely to suppress (or "tuck" for you folks who prefer PC terms to military ones) than a series of unsteady semi-auto shots. This is even more the case when the gun in question is extremely loud...like my beloved Rainmaker.

Granted, a good electro trigger can produce rates of fire a bit higher than most full auto guns. However, most players cannot sustain that rate of fire for any length of time and as noted above accuracy suffers with repeated trigger pulls.

Most of those who are opposed to full auto fire raise the spectre of "over-shooting". This is a valid point. However is one is careful and has the right training, this issue is becomes invalid. For example, I'm ex-military and am experienced in full auto fire. I also own three legal licensed full auto firearms. So as you might expect, I fire in short bursts rather than ripping the whole hopper and do other things that make my full auto both more effective and safer than someone less trained would. But it's not that hard of a skill to learn.

Finally I feel that most fields that ban full auto fire are doing so as a knee-jerk reaction to hysterical claims. I'm all for safety, but safety paranoia is a bad thing. Perhaps a more apropriate aproach would be to restrict full auto fire to mature players who have demonstrated proper skill and fire control?

Am I off base here? What do you think?

Discuss...

"Trench Raider"
yes I use my Minimag on the field that doesn't permit full autos...

RMOG AO BEOG

n00b

[battlegroup]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by battlegroup
...with the incredibly shot/light trigger pulls these days you can get 9-13 bps semi-auto and more controlled...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Originally posted by Jack & Coke


more controlled???

How???
Because you have to conciously pull the trigger each time. you know how much you want to shoot. With F/A pull once and let 10 balls go. with semi you have to kepp pulling to get 10 balls.

I totally disagree.

Shoot 9-13 bps via FULL-AUTO => pull once, let go when you want to stop.

Shoot 9-13 bps via hair trigger electro semi => spastically twitch your wrist or run your fingers until you acheive that comfort rythm.

PLUS:


Trip and fall. Tightly grip the marker in the process and pull the trigger.

[Evil Bob]

Has anyone done any testing with full auto on a goggle lens to see if there are any issues with repeated inpacts in a small area? I've seen lenses from multiple manufacturers develope visible flaws after a single impact from close range, I'm curious as to what would happen to these lenses from repeated impacts in the same location.

We already know what repeated impacts on the human body will do, how about the gear we trust to protect our eyes?

-Evil Bob

[Jack & Coke]

"repeated impacts in the same location" is a function of ROF and not operation (i.e. Full-auto vs. Semi).

10 bps via full-auto is the same as 10 bps via semi. Your mask lens example will still see 10 balls on impact for 1 second.

Regarding saftey issues of overshooting, most seem to confuse FULL-AUTO with high ROF. You want less impacts in a specific area, lower the ROF. This can easily be done via electro style full-autos.

The best argument against full-auto (which I agree with) has been about the ability to shoot 1 shot if they wanted to (i.e. bunkering moves). Lower the ROF and it solves this problem.

Then again... when someone bunkers another player, how many shots do they reel off? I've seen clips of pros bunkering other pros with 3-5 point-blank shots... using their "safer" semi's. :rolleyes:

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by hitech

This is still the bottom line. To me, this is proof that full-auto is dangerous. You disagree? If so, why?


I disagree. And why?! Because, as I have stated before, I have left the playing field injured and bleeding without being shot by a full auto.


Originally posted by MinimagRockin'
Will allowing full auto make paintball more enjoyable? No way. It's fun to pull the trigger a bunch of times. I don't have an FA gun but even if I did I wouldn't use FA whether they allowed it or not.

Again, this is a matter of opinion, I think its fun to pull the pump back on a gun a bunch of times to cock it.


Originally posted by hitech
Why? Full-auto is dangerous. Is semi-auto? Maybe it is at a certain ROF, but I'm all for a ROF cap

I think this is a good idea, but how do you propose that we cap the rate of fire on semi-autos? And how do you think the tourney level player that sprays and prays is gonna feel about that?

In fact...probably the best way to do this would be to require all guns to be electro, set to full auto with a cap of say 5bps...that way everyone is on level ground, no skilled semi players can exceed the ROF limit...

[Evil Bob]

Jack and Coke...

I know full well that rate of fire dictates how many rounds will be in the air as well as the person pulling the trigger. Go re-read my question again.

What I asked was has anyone tested repeated impacts on a lens in the same location to see what happens to the lens? Do they crack? Do they develope artifacts? Does the impact of the balls hitting cause the players mask to come off?

These are valid concerns, some people are obviously unconcerned with your welfare when they overshoot you.

-Evil Bob

[hitech]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
I disagree. And why?! Because, as I have stated before, I have left the playing field injured and bleeding without being shot by a full auto.

I think you are missing the point. I'm sure Butterfingers has played in many semi-auto games. Full-auto is different. Have you seen what full-auto at 20 bps will do? Have you seen the video of Tom shooting "Man Cow"?


Originally posted by Orange Crush
In fact...probably the best way to do this would be to require all guns to be electro, set to full auto with a cap of say 5bps...that way everyone is on level ground, no skilled semi players can exceed the ROF limit...

If you ignore the problem of what to do with all the existing mechanical markers, I think that is a great idea. Then again, I have thought that would be a good idea for some time now. ;)

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Evil Bob
Jack and Coke...

I know full well that rate of fire dictates how many rounds will be in the air as well as the person pulling the trigger. Go re-read my question again.

What I asked was has anyone tested repeated impacts on a lens in the same location to see what happens to the lens? Do they crack? Do they develope artifacts? Does the impact of the balls hitting cause the players mask to come off?

These are valid concerns, some people are obviously unconcerned with your welfare when they overshoot you.

-Evil Bob

bOB,

My post was NOT intended to answer your questions.

I was just pointing how people confuse FULL-AUTO and ROF as they relate to saftey issues (i.e. "repeated impacts in the same location")

Your questions are good, however, they apply to both FULL-AUTO as well as SEMI.


...Have you seen what full-auto at 20 bps will do?

Why does FULL-AUTO have to be at 20 bps? What about FULL-AUTO at 5-7 bps?

[Jack & Coke]

In regards to the issue of "OVERSHOOTING" consider this...

The primary reasons for "OVERSHOOTING" are:

1. The person pulling the trigger (i.e. untrained, overzealous, jerk, etc.)

2. Rate of Fire

Why didn't I include type of opperation? (i.e. FULL-AUTO, SEMI)

because as they relate to "OVERSHOOTING", they are dependant upon the ROF.

Extreme Examples...

Emagnum full-auto at 20 bps => high chance of "OVERSHOOTING"

Emagnum full-auto at 2 bps => very little chance of "OVERSHOOTING"




Conclusion- "FULL-AUTO" is not the problem, "HIGH ROF" is.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Why does FULL-AUTO have to be at 20 bps? What about FULL-AUTO at 5-7 bps?

It doesn't. If it's rate of fire were limited to 5 (7 is too high) then it MIGHT be okay. Accidents will still involve multiple rounds, but that kid that panics and just holds onto the trigger won't be as much of a problem. ;)


Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Conclusion- "FULL-AUTO" is not the problem, "HIGH ROF" is.

Full-auto is still a problem in that accidents involve multiple rounds. However, the lower the ROF the less of a problem it is. ROF by itself isn't the problem. You don't have the accidential multiple rounds problem and you don't have the kid panicing and holding onto the trigger.

[fearc7]

I agree on fealds should allow full auto. I think the answer to the rof problem is to limit rof also, and would actually help out the game. Maybe if you people don't like newbies with F/A, only allow it on speedball or maybe just tournies. I think maybe if we limit the F/A to give or take 10, I would be very pleased.

[Dern]

I agree totally with Jack n Coke, Rate of Fire IS THE REASON WHY PEOPLE ARE AGAINST FULL AUTO. This is a sophism; Semi Auto guns can reach pretty much the same ROF as many full autos now. Even if they can't, are 3-4 balls REALLY going to matter if the rate of fire is above 10?!!?!? In paintball the bottom line is the person behind the gun, not the gun itself. Don't you guys read the yellow warning labels that are slapped on new guns? Ex: "THIS PAINTBALL MARKER IS NOT A TOY. ADULT SUPERVISION RECOMENDED [If you are a jackass who can't use common sense or sympathy]"

If a guy at a field can convince everyone to let him use full auto, he should be able to use it. Of course, the field owner has the last say in the matter, so if the owner of the field says Yes to full auto, lettem play with it.

[hitech]

Originally posted by fearc7
I think maybe if we limit the F/A to give or take 10, I would be very pleased.

I think that if you got bunkered by some kid with a death grip on the trigger at 10 bps you might have a different opinion. ;)

[big E kingpin]

i like being on the sendindg end of my emagnum. only when playing with my frineds though

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by hitech


I think that if you got bunkered by some kid with a death grip on the trigger at 10 bps you might have a different opinion. ;)

What about the pro player walking his fingers on a super fast electro-semi (like a timmy) as he bunkers you, "making sure" he gets the kill?

This is the fault of the opperator, not the gun.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
What about the pro player walking his fingers on a super fast electro-semi (like a timmy) as he bunkers you, "making sure" he gets the kill?

Since he has to move and shoot, I'll bet you would still get hit more times and closer together by the full-auto. Also, there are a much smaller percentage of people who can even do that. Someone MAY do that with a semi-auto. Many people WILL do it if full-auto is generally allowed. Letting loose a two or three second max rate string on someone while bunkering them should get you thrown out of the field. You did it on purpose. The kid just "panicked".

[hitech]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
Holy smokes, I cannot believe the amount of whining I have seen on this thread.

BTW, I don't think I am whining. I use to play at a field where no one (but me) could chrono under 325 (350-375 was "average") when they first set a speed limit. I was also accused of whining when someone was shooting 450 and I refused to go out on the field. I wasn't whining then and I'm not now. I don't think it's safe. Just like I didn't think 450 was safe.

[Trench_Riader]

My god! I go away for two days and come back to see my little thread has exploded. Let me make a few quick points, and I'll call it a day:

blnk162----how very mature. You know, I expected better from this forum. Oh well.....there is a troll in every group I suppose.


The best argument against full-auto (which I agree with) has been about the ability to shoot 1 shot if they wanted to (i.e. bunkering moves). Lower the ROF and it solves this problem.


My Rainmaker is capped at 9 bps on full auto. I have no problem popping off single shots when needed. I don't even click the selector over to semi to crono the gun. If the rof is set at a reasonable rate, (9 bps is 600 prm, which is a common rof for first and second generation sub machineguns, so it's about right)

IMHO the bottom line on f/a is personal responsibility. One has to know what one is doing before setting the selector switch. Furthermore, if a ref sees an unsafe act involving f/a fire (or any mode actually) he shold be willing to eject that person....and prohibit them from using that fire mode in the future.

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by hitech
I think that if you got bunkered by some kid with a death grip on the trigger at 10 bps you might have a different opinion. ;)

Alright, hopefully I have a grip on the modern lingo of paintball...bunkering is when you charge/assault a bunker/prop that has someone behind it, and you point your marker around the corner popping them one, and taking them out of the game, correct? Looked at a couple of "paintball dictionary" sites to make sure, and that was the impression I got, though none of them were really clear.

Assuming that is the case, the anti full-auto/safety concern argument just loses its whole case with me. Shooting somebody that close has got to be one of the stupidest things (especially concerning safety) that I have ever heard. Combine bunkering with full auto and, yes, I see why you are concerned...however its not full auto that's the problem, its the stupid manuver that's allowed that is the problem...if bunkering were not a legal play, would full auto really be of that much concern? I doubt it.

Again, you keep crying 5 bps, and I think that's outrageous, I bet even the newest player could easily crack off 5 bps with an electro. I understand and agree with a ROF cap, but I think that 5 is too low IMO.


Originally posted by hitech
BTW, I don't think I am whining.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it!! {J/K};)
Though I disagree with you, you at least present some seemingly valid concerns.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
"repeated impacts in the same location" is a function of ROF and not operation (i.e. Full-auto vs. Semi).

10 bps via full-auto is the same as 10 bps via semi. Your mask lens example will still see 10 balls on impact for 1 second.

Regarding saftey issues of overshooting, most seem to confuse FULL-AUTO with high ROF. You want less impacts in a specific area, lower the ROF. This can easily be done via electro style full-autos.


This, of course is completely wrong, and makes me wonder what the motivation of the poster really is.

Repeated impacts in the same locations has NOTHING to do with rate of fire, and EVERYTHING to do with the marker being aimed at exactly the same spot. I can produce 100 hits in the same spot of a goggle lens with a semi, shooting 1 ball per second.

The reason FA affects this is that FA allows a high ROF while holding the marker on target - the very first post in this thread in fact said this is WHY he wanted FA in the first place. I have been on the receiving end of an RT in sweetspot - and the balls (from one end of an airball court to another) were spread by about 1-2 feet. I have also seen a FA keep the same shot to within a few inches.

At shorter ranges the grouping becomes tight enough to be a problem.

The safety factor hs to do with two things:

1) increased likelyhood of multiple hits in the same location and

2) increased likelyhood of multiple rounds being accidentally discharged.

In fact, the primary reason the insurance companies disallow FA is that independent medical researchers have shown that a single eye hit may lead to injuries ranging from no loss, to partial loss, to complete loss of sight in one eye, but a single burst from a FA could range from complete loss in one eye to complete loss in BOTH eyes. Interestingly enough, the case they worry about the most is NOT during play, but during non-play. No matter how sensitive your trigger, the likelyhood of that from a semi is far less than with FA.

There is and has been ample evidence and discussion of this issue on this forum and others. Without exception, it has been made clear that FA is a bad idea - its not safe, and that is the biggest argument.

Please feel free to play with FA at any field that will let you, but rest assured you will not see ME there.

FatMan

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by Dayspring
So I suppose that Tom Kaye, being one of the manufacturers that is leading the charge against full auto makes him a whiner too huh? :rolleyes:

Hey Dayspring, is that the same Tom Kaye that said this:

"Accuracy by volume has been and will remain the best way to score eliminations." -Tom Kaye

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by FatMan


This, of course is completely wrong, and makes me wonder what the motivation of the poster really is.



Huh? No secrete motivation here buddy. This is a forum for discussion and expressing opinions. I have mine, and you have yours. Try to deal with it. Please try to keep the discussion on topic and not personal.



Repeated impacts in the same locations has NOTHING to do with rate of fire, and EVERYTHING to do with the marker being aimed at exactly the same spot. I can produce 100 hits in the same spot of a goggle lens with a semi, shooting 1 ball per second.


I think you completely missed the point. I was talking about real game playing conditions where movement and dynamics are involved.

With a HIGH ROF you are more likely to get multiple hits in the same location than a LOW ROF.

FA is not the problem here because it's effectiveness is DEPENDENT upon the ROF.

Do you really think FA @ 5 bps would yield more overshooting than today's hair trigger electro semi's @ 15bps?

SUMMARY regarding FA vs HIGH ROF for those too lazy to read ALL of my posts...

- I am NOT FOR NOR AGAINST FA or HIGH ROF. I like to play pump as well as speed ball with my 15-18bps guns (GZ Timmy, Retromag, Tippy RT)

- I read people's arguments against FA, and I disagree with them. I think they blame things for the wrong reason.

- I think FA is not the problem in regards to protential overshooting - super high ROF and user descretion is.

one more time...

Emagnum full-auto at 20 bps => high chance of accidentally "OVERSHOOTING" your opponent.

Emagnum full-auto at 2 bps => very little chance of accidentally "OVERSHOOTING" your opponent.

As you can see (if you're not too blinded by your own opinions) ROF IS the determining factor. Reduce ROF and FA in a non-issue.

The solution for soothing overshooting concerns lies in finding an acceptable and safe ROF.

I think today's super fast hair trigger electro semi's are shot with such skill and enthusiasm, that they produce the same effectiveness of "full-auto" style shooting.

Remember... This is my opinion. If you diagree - that's ok!:) But please don't try to insinuate that I have "motives" here... pfffft.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
Though I disagree with you, you at least present some seemingly valid concerns.

That's why I post here. I enjoy debating with people who do NOT share my opinion, even if they are wrong. ;)

Thanks for keeping the discussion to the facts.

And yes, you had the idea of "bunkering" correct. And don't feel bad, I did not know what it was when I first read it here either. Most fields I have played at do not specifically disallow close range shooting. Close range shooting and medium rof full-auto in the wrong hands are a problem. Multiple accidental discharges are a problem.
The reason I use 5 bps for full auto is that most people with a little practice can achive that rof with "normal" trigger pulls. Even when "bunkering" someone. As you try to get much faster than that becomes much more difficult to do by simply pulling the trigger. Therefore that is approx. the max rof that is currently in use in most close range firefights. It hasn't been a big problem so far, so that it possibly okay. :D

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke

I think you completely missed the point. I was talking about real game playing conditions where movement and dynamics are involved.

With a HIGH ROF you are more likely to get multiple hits in the same location than a LOW ROF.

FA is not the problem here because it's effectiveness is DEPENDENT upon the ROF.

Do you really think FA @ 5 bps would yield more overshooting than today's hair trigger electro semi's @ 15bps?

SUMMARY regarding FA vs HIGH ROF for those too lazy to read ALL of my posts...


I'm not sure who has missed the point here ... I understand what you are saying, and yes, in fact ROF contributes to the degree of multiple impact (I was exagerating when I said it had "nothing" to do with it - certainly FA at 1bps is less dangerous than FA at 12bps).

But the point was why is FA generally banned - which is, of course because it is unsafe. You claimed that was a bogus reason, based your statement that ROF is the culprit, and that is not dependent on FA. I pointed out that was ONLY true if you limit the discussion to live game play (which you just confirmed) and I pointed out THAT is an invalid argument - reasons given above. Further I will argue that it is NOT even true during live game play - the likelyhood and degree of multiple impact is greater with a FA marker than a SA marker firing at the same rate of fire.

I've read all your posts - I understand what you are saying. What you are saying is not correct in the context of the discussion of the safety or lack thereof in using FA.

FatMan

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by FatMan
...the likelyhood and degree of multiple impact is greater with a FA marker than a SA marker firing at the same rate of fire....

???

I don't agree.

"At the same rate of fire", the same amount of balls are in the air flying towards your target... are you saying that SA ruins your aim that much?

Maybe if you're thinking non-electro triggers. However, electro SA allow for a very stable and accurate platform.

I wonder how many people can walk there electro triggers (SA) and still keep on target? I know I can. ...and at 10 bps, I would get the same results SA or FA (i.e. if I shot for 1/2 second, 5 balls in the air, flying at my target in a nice tight pattern).



What is "overshooting"? More than 3 shots breaking on your target... right? Then the real question should be:

"Are you able to control and limit yourself to 3 shots at any time?"

"If you sneak up behind someone, can you limit your shots to 3 max if you wanted to?"

If you can answer "yes" while shooting FA, then you are fine. No danger here.

ROF set to LOW (5-7 bps) = not likely to accidentally overshoot (more than 3 hits)

ROF set to HIGH (12-18+) = likely to accidentally overshoot (more than 3 hits)

[Evil Bob]

The difference most people are trying to explain here is not the ROF issue more then the actual effort and trigger manipulation that needs to happen that makes the difference. Someone cranking on a semi trigger repeatedly takes a conscious effort and lots of practice to keep up a good sustained rate of fire. Someone with an FA setup needs only hold the trigger down. In the hands of a new player where this is likely to be a major concern, the new player, through lack of experience, is more likely to mash the trigger once and spray then pull the trigger repeatedly and effectively. The "death grip" on the trigger is more of a reality in this type of situation.

-Evil Bob

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
I don't agree.

I wonder how many people can walk there electro triggers (SA) and still keep on target? I know I can. ...and at 10 bps, I would get the same results SA or FA (i.e. if I shot for 1/2 second, 5 balls in the air, flying at my target in a nice tight pattern).

What is "overshooting"? More than 3 shots breaking on your target... right? Then the real question should be:

so noted. I would suggest you put that to the test - as is often the way on this forum - and prove that you always produce the same grouping with your SA as a FA - and then show that that translates to the rest of the paintball public. I don't think you understand what you are saying.

"overshooting" isn't the issue, and your definition of it is really rather lame. The issue is safety and the likelyhood of injuries.

I would go further to say I would much rather have a semi capable of 10bps than a FA limited to 5bps, and the semi would be safer. The ability to reach that rate requires a certain level of attention to the problem with the semi, with the FA all you do is bump the trigger.

But really, all of this discussion of academic. FA is unsafe - anyone who a seriously studied the problem knows that - it has been discussed here over and over with the same results. Clearly my FIRST impression was right - you aren't interested in knowing WHY it is - you really just want to justify your desire to use it anyway.

Its a bad idea for paintball, and I hope it never becomes the norm.

FatMan

[Jack & Coke]

Again, with regards to "safety" if the ROF were LOW this so called "death grip" + full auto concern would be a non-issue.

With regards to "conscious effort", what difference does it make if I shoot 10 bps FA or SA? If you're on the receiving end of my volley, you still see 10 balls flying at you for every second I shoot - FA or SA.

Most of the arguements against FA in this thread are incorrectly based on "safety" issues, where in actuality they are based on "parity" issues. They actually are complaining about fairness.

If you say FA is unfair against SA, then I agree. It is easier dish out a 10-15 bps string of balls via FA, than via SA.

If you say FA is more prone to overshooting than SA, then I say at what ROF? At a LOW ROF there is no difference between FA and SA. At a HIGH ROF, then yes there is a difference.

Really concerned about safety (overshooting)? Start talking about the ROF.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by FatMan
.."overshooting" isn't the issue, and your definition of it is really rather lame. The issue is safety and the likelyhood of injuries...

"lame" - Please exlpain.

"likelyhood of injuries" - What about superman dives and point blank bunkering exchanges?

Fatman, please keep it civil. It your inability to maintain a mature and intelligent debate is starting to show... and I have no interest in engaging in a FLAME WAR over differing opinions.http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif

[Orange Crush]

This conversation is absolutely amazing! I don't, haven't, and probably never will use full auto, so I am not really an advocate. I really couldn't care less, but I really don't see the big "safety" issues with FA.

Bunkering-being bunkered by a noob or otherwise. The safety issue here isn't the FA capability, its being bunkered. I guess you guys are okay with taking a shot at that range, but I don't want to take a hit that close, whether it be one or ten. This should be a "dead to rights" elimination, with no shots fired. This is poor judgement on the part of the fields and the insurance companies. If bunkering is your major concern with full auto, I think you are attacking the wrong portion of the same problem. If you disagree, then lets play out this little scenario. You get your choice, take a single shot to the side of your neck under the ear from 18 inches or take a 20 round FA salvo from 50ft. I know what I'd take.

Accidental discharge-so far this seems to most valid concern to me, but again, I think blaming full auto is some kind of scape goat. I agree that in the event of a discharge a FA could stand the risk of multiple eye injuries instead of just one. However, I have to ask you this: Since when is losing just one eye ok? I mean for god sakes, its okay to lose one eye, but not two? Besides correct me if I am wrong, but haven't we already taken a measure to prevent accidental discharges, called a barrel plug? "Well yeah Nick, but that was before full auto, now they don't work. Besides, I'm only willing to risk one eye to play paintball.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that all the issues that have been brought up aren't problems with FA, but problems and risks that have been a part of paintball since the very beginning. Close range shots, shooting an already "out" player, accidental discharges in the staging areas.

You don't like full auto, fine, nobody said you have to, but don't make it out to be something bad, scary and dangerous just because you don't like it.

[ghideon]

When's the last time you saw some idiot unload on some 12 year old kid, till the kid dropped his weapon in the dirt and went fetal? And the idiot shooting him is a full grown adult who should know better? I saw this last time I went out to play.

While most of us posting here are quite capable of controlling a high ROF, there are some people out there who are not. And it is these people we have to worry about. Not only for ourselves, but also for the other people who are in our sport. It's not like we're gonna start a national paintball database of who's allowed to go F/A and who's not.

The scenario described above is so not good for a number of reasons. In order for our sport to grow, get more people, get cheaper, etc, we need fresh bodies, and we ain't gonna get em if we give keep shooting them after they've gone fetal. Add to that the safety issues. And full auto in the hands of the unwashed masses isn't a good idea.

I personally dislike the ROF on the current batch of high-end guns. If it were up to me, we'll all be running around the woods with pumps.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
You don't like full auto, fine, nobody said you have to, but don't make it out to be something bad, scary and dangerous just because you don't like it.
Yeah, that is it… no matter how many real safety issues are brought up, we can disregard them because folks who bring them up just don’t like FA.

My point in this is that THAT is total BS. Sorry. Just because similar things can happen with semi-auto does NOT mean that the ability to do it with EASE (and no practice, or even by pure accident) in FA does not mean it is not a valid safety issue. It is the ease, as well as accidental issues that make it more of a safety issue.

I like speed, but I would not advocate every road be rated unlimited speed limits, or that every car made be able to go 200+mph. Heck all the safety issues involved in THAT argument would be frighteningly similar to the arguments made in the paintball arguments…. almost every accident that causes death, or serious injury, can be done at both 100+mph AND at 50mph AND some as low as 10-30mph. hmmmmm interesting isn’t it?

Laws and restrictions are not made for the portion of society that would normally never have a problem… they are made for the idiots that without the limitations would cause harm to the rest of us. After all, if everyone was sensible, we would not need rules, laws, police, etc.

FA or not FA….. personal choice when playing in private. When playing in public, or at a public field, NOT personal choice… and because of the idiots. And does this mean that those who are against FA as a standard for play are AGAINST FA in every situation? NO. And if you DO like FA must you act as if there is NO safety issue above those present with Semi-Auto? NO. You don’t have to be one or the other. You can like FA and admit it poses a higher safety risk.. which it DOES.

Those who can not see this are just walking around with blinders on…..

[Dubstar112]

I personally, do not consider high end electros as a semi-automatic.

With the electro world, you dont have to physically pull the trigger, bump, shake, or blow on it is what it usually takes. I dont consider these semiauto because of the ability to bump the trigger several times on accident and shoot.

With a classic mag, spyder, or whatnot, shooting a hopper feels like a hopper was shot, with a high end electro you can make a hopper full seem worthless.

Thats how I feel, and i dont care what anyone else thinks..I however do plan to use f/a, and I do plan on using a high end electro next time i play. This may seem a little wierd, or contradictory, but thats my intentions.

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by ghideon
When's the last time you saw some idiot unload on some 12 year old kid, till the kid dropped his weapon in the dirt and went fetal? And the idiot shooting him is a full grown adult who should know better? I saw this last time I went out to play.

Unfortunatley I have seen this type of scenario many, many times before. And way more often than not, it happens at the hand of an experienced player. In fact, I find myself more concerned with the a-hole experienced players on the field that overshoot on purpose than I am about the noob that might do it on accident.


Originally posted by ghideon
While most of us posting here are quite capable of controlling a high ROF, there are some people out there who are not. And it is these people we have to worry about. Not only for ourselves, but also for the other people who are in our sport. It's not like we're gonna start a national paintball database of who's allowed to go F/A and who's not.

This arguement still holds no water with me. On the presumption that the normally safe and acceptable FA becomes dangerous in the hands of idiots like the man described in your scenario, then too does the whole sport of paintball become a risk. Anyone that puts anyone at risk with a FA marker, runs that risk with any marker in their hands. You can't ban FA because of the incompetence of a small portion of the players anymore than you can ban paintball all together.

I mean its okay to overshoot or bunker someone as long as you didn't do it with a full auto right?! Maybe fields should start excercising some responsibility on their own and banning the players that do not excercise good playing practices. Maybe a ref should stand at the edge of the field and not let people off until they have barrel plugs in (instead of randomly catching people), ensure the markers are on safe. Maybe we should make sure all hoppers are removed and markers cleared of paint before leaving the field. Ultimatley that would be the best practice for safety sake. I mean you guys cry safety, but really, do you think that we as a sport are actually doing everything we can to promote safety. Would emptying hoppers after each game be a pain in the ***?! Yes! Would it be a good safety practice?! You betcha!! Then again I raise the velocity issue. You chrony on, but it is so easy, even if I have to use an allen key, 1/4 turn up, then back down a 1/4 turn. Someone calls hotshot, but its already been turned back down. How many guns are actually capable of shooting over 400fps?! Why?!?! 300fps is the highest acceptable speed (atleast anywhere that I have played or heard of) So why does the gun even need to be able to be turned up that high?! Why isn't anyone crying about that?! I mean I could go on about things that could be done to make paintball much much safer than it is now.


Originally posted by Shartley
Yeah, that is it… no matter how many real safety issues are brought up, we can disregard them because folks who bring them up just don’t like FA.Yeah, that is it… no matter how many real safety issues are brought up, we can disregard them because folks who bring them up just don’t like FA.

Honestly, I don't feel like any real safetly issues have been presented, atleast none that didn't already exist before FA.


Originally posted by Shartley
My point in this is that THAT is total BS. Sorry. Just because similar things can happen with semi-auto does NOT mean that the ability to do it with EASE (and no practice, or even by pure accident) in FA does not mean it is not a valid safety issue. It is the ease, as well as accidental issues that make it more of a safety issue.

Now this concerns me a little. Apparently we are more concerned with the accidents that noobs may make with their FA than we are by the same, but deliberate acts of experienced players. Noobs will make mistakes and learn from them, eventually, they'll become experienced and controlled as well, except those select few that turn into the experienced asses that do all things you are concerned with on purpose, instead of on accident.


Originally posted by Shartley
You can like FA and admit it poses a higher safety risk.. which it DOES.

Maybe just a tiny bit more, I'll admit, but not enough to ban it and label as "so dangerous".


Originally posted by Shartley
Those who can not see this are just walking around with blinders on…..

And those that think FA poses a far superior risk, obviously didn't understand the risks involved in paintball in the first place.

In closing (I think I am done beating this dead horse) I want to remind you guys of this: I don't have full auto, I don't use it, never will, won't miss it if you guys manage to ban it. I really don't care one way or the other, I just think your safety concerns with FA are ill-intended, unresearched, unsubstantiated and faddish. Sorry, that's how I feel about.

[TheMagGuy]

allright, I have a different opinion on this one. I do not think that full auto should be allowed on most fields. I play at a field that does not allow full auto or anything else (but semi.) But think about it, how would you like to get hit by some guy shooting an angel at 20bps. Having 10 balls break on you is sure to drive some new players away from paintball and the sport would become less popular. What I do think though is that fields should allow 3 round bursts. Why? It would eliminate people wiping paint. I hate when some guy wont admit that he is out when I am sure that I hit him. The same guy is less likely to wipe three shots than just one. If people continue to lie and not admit it when they are out, then we should definatly be able to shoot bursts, but allowing full auto is overkill.

[Trench_Riader]

What I do think though is that fields should allow 3 round bursts

Most places that ban f/a do the same with burst fire for the same misguided reasons.

IMHO three round burst is not all that effective anyway. On real firearms, one of the main effects of TRB (aside from conservation of ammo) is assuring a greater chance of multi hits. On such guns, the burst is fired at a very high rate of fire (faster than most f/a's). However on most paintball guns, the rate of fire of TRB is the same as f/a. This pretty much defeats the purpose of TRB.

Anything to add to that?

"Trench Raider"
RMOG AO BEOG

[shartley]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
And those that think FA poses a far superior risk, obviously didn't understand the risks involved in paintball in the first place.

In closing (I think I am done beating this dead horse) I want to remind you guys of this: I don't have full auto, I don't use it, never will, won't miss it if you guys manage to ban it. I really don't care one way or the other, I just think your safety concerns with FA are ill-intended, unresearched, unsubstantiated and faddish. Sorry, that's how I feel about.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally do feel it is a greater risk (how great I am not quite certain, but I feel it IS greater), but does that mean that I think it should be banned all together? No. Do I agree with the ban at public fields, YES. There is a difference. And that does not mean that I don’t understand the risks involved in paintball in the first place… it is BECAUSE of that that I feel the way I do. And from reading this tread, many long time players seem to agree… yes, some disagree too.

What I say to those that think it is NOT a greater risk is, start your own public field and run FA then. There is a reason FA is not allowed at most public fields, and why insurance companies want this enforced. Like it or not, such is life. Folks can argue all they want here, but that will not change Mr. or Mrs. Public Field Owner’s mind on the subject.

And those of us who think it is a greater risk don’t HAVE to also think it should be banned across the board, or that we are ill-intended. LOL Like we are out to cause harm to paintball or something? How is that? And as for un-researched, unsubstantiated…. What? There is plenty of footage of what FA can do. And a little common sense goes a long way. Yes, you can do in semi what can be done by accident on FA. This was not in debate. But it is “by accident” that is the problem. You will almost always find folks who don’t follow the rules, or do unsafe things…. but the idea is to prevent accidental occurrences of these things, or make it harder to do them at the least.

Now… Faddish? LOLROF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, we are just going along with that thought process because it is “cool” to do. Puhleeez.

I get very tired of the “wings”. By this I mean that no one can seem have a slightly off center view, it is either WAY to one side or the other. If you feel that there is a greater risk (no matter how marginal), you obviously are WAY off to the extreme…. Sorry folks….. Not so, and not by a long shot.

This reminds me of a Pit-bull argument….. I owned a Pit-bull and they are great dogs. Much of the reputation they have is caused by the improper uses and training of these dogs. I also think they make wonderful pets. But does this mean I am going to stand up and argue that there is NO greater risk in owning one? NO. Because there IS. Do I think every home should have one? NO. Do I think every Pit-bull owner is a “good” owner and their dogs are harmless? NO. Would I own one again? YES. Was my Pit-bull a “problem dog”? NO.

See the duality of my stance? It is the same with FA for me…. and I get the feeling it is similar for a lot of folks.

To admit that FA causes a greater risk is not saying you HATE FA, or that it should NEVER be used in any situation. Field owners (as well as private folks) need to make their own determinations as to what they feel is “acceptable risk”. And if you don’t like that decision, don’t play with them, or on their fields….. And that goes for both sides of the argument. It seems pretty simple to me. And if someone thinks the risk is too high for general play FINE… that does not make them “bad” people… no more so than those that think FA is fine.

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by shartley
This reminds me of a Pit-bull argument….. I owned a Pit-bull and they are great dogs. Much of the reputation they have is caused by the improper uses and training of these dogs. I also think they make wonderful pets. But does this mean I am going to stand up and argue that there is NO greater risk in owning one? NO. Because there IS. Do I think every home should have one? NO. Do I think every Pit-bull owner is a “good” owner and their dogs are harmless? NO. Would I own one again? YES. Was my Pit-bull a “problem dog”? NO.


shartley...this was a great analogy, because your initial statement is exactly how I felt about FA. Improper training and misuse were the culprit, not necessarily the dog/marker. Amazingly enough, your simple analogy did help me understand your stance a little better.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
You get your choice, take a single shot to the side of your neck under the ear from 18 inches or take a 20 round FA salvo from 50ft. I know what I'd take.

I have played for over 15 years. I have been shot at close range many, many times. One shot is no problem. 10 or more shots is a problem. And yes, I have been shot with at least 10 rounds from no more than four feet (probably much less, but my back was turned). BTW, it was MY fault, I refused to go out until I was marked. Old tournament habits died hard. Believe me, there is a huge difference. That incident caused me to rethink my tournament mentality when playing rec ball. BTW, I would take the single shot; my mask covers my neck under my ear. ;)


Originally posted by shartley
Laws and restrictions are not made for the portion of society that would normally never have a problem, they are made for the idiots that without the limitations would cause harm to the rest of us. After all, if everyone was sensible, we would not need rules, laws, police, etc.

There you have it. Lot of things are not allowed in society today because of the risks of abuse. Full-auto is one of those. It's too easy to abuse it. WAY TO EASY.

BTW, I think ROF should be limited also, but that is a MUCH smaller risk.


Originally posted by Dubstar112
With the electro world, you don't have to physically pull the trigger. Bump, shake, or blow on it is what it usually takes. I don't consider these semi-auto because of the ability to bump the trigger several times on accident and shoot.


It's not electros, but some electros. And yes, if the marker will fire without pulling the trigger by simple means, i.e. bumping, shaking etc., it should not be considered a semi-auto and not allowed. Those things are dangerous also.


Originally posted by shartley
Field owners (as well as private folks) need to make their own determinations as to what they feel is "acceptable risk".

Acceptable risk. That is the bottom line. Because it to SO EASY for ANYONE to cause a problem with full-auto is was makes it an unacceptable risk for public fields. And that is the bottom line (sorry, couldn't help myself).

BTW, I think it is threads like these that make this place great! :D