Why do people shoot so much paint?

[A.T.S]

I was watching the world cup on OLN today! It looked like plenty O fun! However, I cannot understand why sooooooo much paint has to be flying. I know it is fun to pull the trigger fast and watch the paint rain down on your opponent! But, watching back players dump 1500 balls through their gun in 10 minutes is crazy. 1500 balls will last me 5 full (6 hour) days of paintball!

Why don’t tournaments put limits on the amount of paint people can bring on to the field? If the world cup were hoper ball only, the game would still have all the excitement and urgency of the world cup I saw today. As I watched the W.C., people began to do more exciting and daring moves when they were low on paint. In my opinion, the ideal game would allow each player a single 50 round hopper. That would allow the back player to play 30 games for the price of one. Sure it would change the dynamics of the game, but would it be any less fun?

[Havoc_online]

"Accuracy by volume has been and will remain the best way to score eliminations." -Tom Kaye

[Jack & Coke]

SPRAY & PRAY!

That's how the paintball industry wants you to play paintball...

See how exciting it is?!:rolleyes:

The more you spray, the more $$$ for them.

such is life :eek:

I like the idea of limited paint tournaments....

[Tyger]

Bah.

Paintball will never be taken seriously as a sport as long as players are allowed to purchase victories. It doesn't matter if they do it ON the field in paint, or OFF the field in bribes. (Don't flame me, I know it's happened...)

Until a format is adopted to show SOME skill other than credit card munching, nobody will take it seriously.

-Tyger

[Nomad]

Like it was said. Limited paint games.

[Mag pusher]

You guys have a point, but I don't agree. Iy is still the skills of the individual and the team that creates victory. Both teams are equals until they hit the field, and then its all about hitting and moving fast. At the Campaign Cup in London the paint (Zap chronic) was priced at 35 USD, making it available to all.

[Brak]

i think they should limit paint to like 500 shots per game. it still allowa back players to shoot (back players' JOB is to shoot A LOT of paint, so giving them 50 round hoppers wont cut it), but still, it wont let poeople continuosly shoot at your bunker while another one goes and bunkers you while you are crapping your pants.

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
"Accuracy by volume has been and will remain the best way to score eliminations." -Tom Kaye

If you have accuracy, volume is not necessary.

[Kevmaster]

thats the thing: paintguns dont have accuracy...if theres a guy at the back left and im in the back right on my side, and he has his foot sticking out, id LOVE to take one shot and have him gone. however, its not gunna happen...if it take 30 shots adn he doesnt notice his foot is out until one hits it...then thats what ill do!

its all about logistics.



oh, and Pan Am limits to 1 pod and a hopper dont they??
i think thats a great way to play

[SlartyBartFast]

I find it amusing that Paintball players will argue for hours about the increase in accuracy from questionable products and theories. Yet when it comes to palying the game they adopt bad shooting stances, hold their guns in ways that do not create balanced or stable shooting platforms, and whail on the trigger in a way that will not have any hope of producing accurate fire. :rolleyes:

I mean whats the point is spending a fortune for tiny little gains is accuracy and then using a playing style that negates any and all gains that may have been made? :confused:

Overshooting of paint is only one of the things that keeps me from being even remotely interested in competing in tournaments.

[seizurepants]

well i thin the reason that people have the money ang the guns to go out and shoot 500 rounds a game and don't care that they miss 1 out of 15 shots

[beam]

Actually, I WANT the tourney players to shoot a lot of paint. High demand for paint = increased supply = lower cost. :)

[hitech]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

I mean whats the point is spending a fortune for tiny little gains is accuracy and then using a playing style that negates any and all gains that may have been made? :confused:



I couldn't have said it better myself. Paintball players are amazing, aren't we? ;)

[JEDI]

In my opinion, you guys got it all wrong. It's not spray and pray, OR accuracy by volume. It's called filling the lane. Not hitting some one can be just as important as hitting them some times. If I fill a lane with 200 balls, and you run into it, that's not luck, I anticipated your move, and you fell for it.

If I'm a back guy trying to insert my front guy to the snake, hitting your bunker with 300 rounds is gonna keep your head down. You dont have that effect plinking away at a half inch of body part, with 3 or fall balls. Now if I see you in the open some how, SURE, I can hit you with maybe 3 shots. Thats not when high volume is useful though.

These are paintball markers. They're not rifles, and we're not hunting. You can't consider them in the same regard. It's speedball. No ones hiding from you, they're just blocked from site. The concept of the "Wood Ball Sniper" doesn't work here. Its a different game, and it has nothing to do with Paintball companies trying to make money off paint. I doubt Tom Kaye, or any other manufacturer said "Yeah, if we make the guns shoot REALLY fast, they'll HAVE to shoot more paint. No, a high rate of fire is a nessecity.

I guess you can disagree, but then I would question whether or not you really know speedball.--Oh, and limited round or one hopper games are just rediculous. Speedball has one goal, and thats elimination. Paint is not a concern.

[A.T.S]

After thinking it through I think limiting each player to a hopper of fifty would not allow enough freedom in the game. I think it would be better to limit the total amount of paint a team can bring to the field and allow them to ration the paint to each member as they see fit.

Of curse limiting the amount of paint that can be fired would change the way the game is played. You can't hammer away at someone’s bunker at 15 bps to keep him or her down. If you do choose to use 30 shots from your 50 round hopper to long-ball a guy at the opposite side of the field you still have 20 more for the other 9 people on their team. While the game may be different would it be any less fun?

I am not saying that all tournaments should limited in this way. Play the way you like! I am saying the game could be just as fun if not more fun if ammunition conservation were a larger part. Not to mention the money you would save!

[banzaimf]

Look at it from a military standpoint. Why does the army have machine guns when everyone could have a sniper rifle cause after all "one shot, one kill". It's not just about accuracy by volume, it's also a matter of keeping the other guys head down. If a back player doesn't keep hammering the field, the other guys can move with impunity. The short distances from bunker to bunker combined with the distance that the paintball travels makes it a little tough.

A 90 MPH fastball from the pitchers mound to home plate takes .45 second. This is with the luxury of being able to see the pitcher start his windup.

A player dashing at 10 MPH for his next bunker where you have a 10 foot window to hit him can cover that distance in .68 of a second. Subtract the time that it takes a paintball at 300 fps to travel 50 feet (just as an example) and you now have a .52 of a second window to adjust your aim and fire your one shot.

I guess I would just like to point out that what you may consider as "spray and pray" is a tool used to keep your team moving and their team in their bunkers.

[JEDI]

Banzaimf, Thats exaclty what I've been waiting to hear. I dont think people understand the game, when I hear them question the amount of paint shot. Sure, we could change it to limited amounts of paint. We could also say you can only run so fast, and have to wear camo, and the games will now be 20 minutes long. Its called wood ball.

Speedball is a game. Every aspect of it contributes to what makes it speed ball. You wouldn't tell a Quarter Back, he can only pass a certain amount of times in a game because it would be fun.

[A.T.S]

I guess what I am trying to say is, there should be tournaments played in different classifications based on paint restrictions. It would be Like engine displacements in road racing.

[JEDI]

That makes sense, I can agree with that idea.

[shartley]

And we know that the M-16A2 (the base weapon for our military soldiers) was switched to a 3 round burst… I wonder why? ;)

Before folks start bringing the Military into the argument, they should know the full range of weapons used, WHY they are used, and that each weapon and soldier is not the same… and for various reasons. It does not quite match up to Paintball Playing. Yeah… sort of… but there are so many differences that to use them as direct comparisons is not quite accurate.

And suppressive fire can be created by semi-auto and pulling only 3BPS or less. Sorry, FA for paintball markers is psychological….. if you hear 3bps hitting your bunker, or if you hear 30bps hitting it, you will STILL stay down…. 30 sounds better though. But I would argue that if you stuck your head up while only 3bps is coming at you, what happens to you will be MUCH different than if it was 30bps.

Many of the arguments brought up in this thread look good at face value, but fall pretty flat on the playing field. Can you imagine a field full of noobs all using FA markers? I think most of the arguments shown here would be proven moot.

If you have a private field, feel free to FA all you want. I don’t trust the average paintball player with that ability… sorry. Business Fields who don’t allow FA (which is most) are right on the money for their clientele.

I have no problem with FA, but there is a time and a place. And standard paintball play is neither the time nor place IMHO. Want to get a private game going on a private field…. No problem! :D I have been overshot by noobs with semi-auto markers, and I can only imagine what would have happened if they had FA.

[temps]

Originally posted by beam
Actually, I WANT the tourney players to shoot a lot of paint. High demand for paint = increased supply = lower cost. :)

Or, High demand , limited supply = higher cost


Unless the demand for paint falls the price will never go down. (exeptions of large companys lowering price to increase compitition in the market place) other then that I don't see the price of paint falling any time soon.

Only way I can get cheap paint is to buy in bulk with a bunch of friends.

Is there a way to make your own paint?

[banzaimf]

Originally posted by shartley
And we know that the M-16A2 (the base weapon for our military soldiers) was switched to a 3 round burst… I wonder why? ;)
Because people would get into bad situations and lay on the trigger clip after clip until they burned up the barrel.


Before folks start bringing the Military into the argument, they should know the full range of weapons used, WHY they are used, and that each weapon and soldier is not the same… and for various reasons. It does not quite match up to Paintball Playing. Yeah… sort of… but there are so many differences that to use them as direct comparisons is not quite accurate.
I was trying to use a simple analogy.


And suppressive fire can be created by semi-auto and pulling only 3BPS or less. Sorry, FA for paintball markers is psychological….. if you hear 3bps hitting your bunker, or if you hear 30bps hitting it, you will STILL stay down…. 30 sounds better though. But I would argue that if you stuck your head up while only 3bps is coming at you, what happens to you will be MUCH different than if it was 30bps.
I am not sure when this became an F/A issue. This is an issue of players dumping paint down the field as a deterrent to the other team running on your guys, and I will agree that bps is really not that important in this job. What it creates however, is a sense that players "spray and pray" when they are merely doing a calculated action to keep your team from being eliminated.


Many of the arguments brought up in this thread look good at face value, but fall pretty flat on the playing field. Can you imagine a field full of noobs all using FA markers? I think most of the arguments shown here would be proven moot.
From what I have seen while reffing, no body would move. Except for the oddball psycho....


If you have a private field, feel free to FA all you want. I don’t trust the average paintball player with that ability… sorry. Business Fields who don’t allow FA (which is most) are right on the money for their clientele.
Once again, I am lost as to where this became an F/A issue.


I have no problem with FA, but there is a time and a place. And standard paintball play is neither the time nor place IMHO. Want to get a private game going on a private field…. No problem! :D I have been overshot by noobs with semi-auto markers, and I can only imagine what would have happened if they had FA.
:confused:

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by banzaimf
Look at it from a military standpoint. Why does the army have machine guns when everyone could have a sniper rifle cause after all "one shot, one kill".

Cute analogy, but wrong on several counts. Most military automatic hand weapons are limited to 3 round bursts. Elite handgun/semi auto training is 3-round burst. And not to preserve the barrel but to conserve amunition. Few military weapons shoot at the rate of fire paintball markers can. Few wepons in the military carry thousands of rounds into battle. Very importantly: Paintball is not the military so all comparisons between the two are usually pretty stupid. When was the last time a soldier survived a 200 pound per minute assault hiding behind an inflatable? Brick walls have difficulty with that sort of barrage.

I won't diss anyone who enjoys throwing as much paint as humanly possible. It's just a game I refuse to play. I had a 300 rpm finger when I played too many video games in mis-spent youth. In a live game, I consider out flanking, out maneuvering, and team comunication to be much better skills. And, IMO, these are skills that should trump tightly focused paint sprayers.

I will however argue that while filling the path may be legitimate strategy, not firing and coaxing out the enemy into your firing path could be ultimately more advantageous. But of course that would require shooting skill where dumping paint is hoping for luck or the pure stupidity of your opponent stepping out into a stream of paint. The difference between "I think you'll go there.' and 'I don't want you to go there' . IMO


Originally posted by JEDI
I dont think people understand the game, when I hear them question the amount of paint shot.

We all understand the tournament speedball game. We just don't necessarily like it that's all.


Sure, we could change it to limited amounts of paint. We could also say you can only run so fast, and have to wear camo, and the games will now be 20 minutes long. Its called wood ball.

Nobody is proposing that. Speedball vs Woodsball is not the only option. Why does Speedball have to be Unlimited Paint speedball? Restrictions on ROF, equipment, amount of paint are interesting no matter the game because it levels the playing field.


Speedball is a game. Every aspect of it contributes to what makes it speed ball.

No, Open Class Unlimited Paint Speedball is a game. And it's a game that not all players have an interest in playing (or even watching).


You wouldn't tell a Quarter Back, he can only pass a certain amount of times in a game because it would be fun.

Actually we do tell a quarterback how many times they can throw in a game. Once per down that their team is in possesion of the ball if I remember correctly. Could say: "We don't let the quarterback throw as many times as they want until a teammate makes a good catch".

Shartley: Think you posted in the wrong thread dude. Even the sprayers in this one aren't advocating FA in Speedball. But I do agree with everything you said none-the-less. 3 BPS vs 30 BPS is IMO only a physcological battle against the opponent and a crutch by the user that could only be hurting his pocket book.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by JEDI
In my opinion, you guys got it all wrong. It's not spray and pray, OR accuracy by volume. It's called filling the lane. Not hitting some one can be just as important as hitting them some times. If I fill a lane with 200 balls, and you run into it, that's not luck, I anticipated your move, and you fell for it.
...
I guess you can disagree, but then I would question whether or not you really know speedball.--Oh, and limited round or one hopper games are just rediculous. Speedball has one goal, and thats elimination. Paint is not a concern.

Let me ask you something, in all seriousness.

If a golfer could take as many whacks at the ball as they wanted, and only count the ones they liked, would that make a good game? How about a football kicker getting as many shots at that 45 yard field goal as they want? Hey, while we're at it, baseball hitters get as many swings as they want in order to score that 'dinger'?

Not much of a sport then, is it?

You can sweet-spot with 30 balls just as easily as you can wih 200. You can do wiht 5 what the neophite does with 500. If a golfer had as many "Mulligans" as they wanted in the PGA, you'd have a lame game. Paintball is one of the only sports that, well, you can buy another 'do-over'.

One of the things that seperate real athletes from weekend hacks is their ability to perform within constraints. In baseball, it's 3 strikes. Golf, it's a stroke count and no handicap. Football, it's 60 minutes and 4 downs at a time. Paintball has no constraints. And, since paintball won't constrain the technology, you have to constrain the paint to show that you have an ability that not everyone else has.

Keep in mind that I can call myslef a paintball professional player with $2500 and 9 other guys who are willing to play in it. Without constraints, wihtout some kind of a way to show real skill, we're spinning our wheels.

-Tyger

[Ultimator]

Originally posted in Tyger's sig
Please forgive any typos in my posts. I type like a paintball player. I go for speed, not accuracy.Hahaha! Wow. The word hypocrite comes to mind. ;)


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast... 3 BPS vs 30 BPS is IMO only a physcological battle against the opponent ...All in all, I really think that paint spraying is somewhat of a strategy. I play mid on a tournament team, I know that if a guy is about to run up and bunker my front guy, I have to shoot a line of paint in front him. There can't be any breaks in that stream or he can get by. So what if I used about 20 balls? I got the guy out and that front guy of yours in their 40 stays in the game.

Most players on a pro level don't pay for ANYTHING. So really all the argument vs. Pros in the World Cup wasting paint (and money) is pointless.

I play stock class once a month, I have a little Sheridan PGP. It's fun, but that's an entirely different game. If you like limited paint games, go for stock ot pump games that puts a lot of emphasis on the "One shot, one kill" aspect of the game.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Tyger

You can sweet-spot with 30 balls just as easily as you can wih 200. -Tyger

I'm not sure I agree with this. Every inch of space between each of my balls when shooting a lane on the break increases the chances for the oposing player to reach his bunker. Now, if I can completely fill the space the is basicly no chance for him to get through.

As far as keeping people down, I generaly only shoot 3 bps unless I see something to shoot at.

This is just as a back player. My front guys don't even always go through a full hopper.

[JEDI]

I never said a speed ball game couldn't be won without shooting a ton of paint.


We all understand the tournament speedball game. We just don't necessarily like it that's all.

That doesn't make any sense what so ever. If you dont like it than why do you concern yourself with the rules of it. Why should players that enjoy it have to abide by rules or the opinions of others that dont enjoy it.


Restrictions on ROF, equipment, amount of paint are interesting no matter the game because it levels the playing field.

How does that level the playing feild? Paintball is a sport where you're game is affected by the gear you own, plain and simple. My gun is different then your gun. I can afford more paint then you, (or vise versa). Whats next? Every one has to use the same gun because otherwise its unfair.

Paintball is different than any other sport. Shooting a couple hundred times isnt a second chance, Its part of the game. Why do you get 2 chances to serve the ball in tennis? Because its part of the game.


No, Open Class Unlimited Paint Speedball is a game. And it's a game that not all players have an interest in playing (or even watching).

I've been to several of the majors including world cup, and I've never seen any different class, limiting your paint. I'm not saying it doesnt exist, but its not main streem. If you like it, good. Play it, and stay out of the real speed ball games.


And suppressive fire can be created by semi-auto and pulling only 3BPS or less. Sorry, FA for paintball markers is psychological….. if you hear 3bps hitting your bunker, or if you hear 30bps hitting it, you will STILL stay down…. 30 sounds better though.

I'm sorry Shartley, you're wrong, I can elimnate a person hitting my bunker with a few balls. It does NOT keep my head down because it simply is not effective.


Many of the arguments brought up in this thread look good at face value, but fall pretty flat on the playing field. Can you imagine a field full of noobs all using FA markers? I think most of the arguments shown here would be proven moot.

Shartley, many times I've seen you attempt to disprove someones arguement by saying, "if you're gonna make an example, know what you're talking about." I mean no disrespect, and I'm not attacking you. Your post leads me to beleive you, in fact, have very little experience playing main stream tournament paintball. NO ONE brought up the full auto, and you sound rediculous arguing against it. Thats not the issue here.

I still think many of you are missing the point. Speedball is not football or baseball. Rules of every one using the same bat or same ball do not apply. I have thousands of dollars in equipment. Major tournaments can cost a team hundreds of dollars. If you dont feel your equipment or budget is up to par, dont come out. Its not a matter of fair, or over shooting. Its part of the game. If you dont like it, play on Shartley's private feild Stay away from Sky Ball or World Cup, because its not for you.

[Miscue]

Word. :)

[Scooter/Cootie]

Originally posted by Brak
...it wont let poeople continuosly shoot at your bunker while another one goes and bunkers you while you are crapping your pants.

This is exactly what's supposed to happen in an organized game of tourny ball.

As a back player on AGD Pride, it's my job (among a <b>lot</b> of other things) to

1. Keep you from shooting at my front players.
2. Keep you in your bunkers so my front players can move up the field to get a better angle on you.
3. Keep you from looking down the field so that my front players can bunker you without you expecting anything.


Please note that I keep referencing to my front players. It's their job to get the eliminations, get the flag pull, and get the hang to win the game for us. They cannot do this effectively if they have to worry about several guns on the other team posted on them at all times. That's where I step in.

It's a team effort out there on the field and the back players responsibility is to provide support to the front players so they can do their jobs. And that support, in a tourny game, requires quite a few paintballs to fly through the air.

The more players on the field, ie. 10 man, the more bunkers and area a back player needs to pay attention to so that his front players can effectively do their jobs. Hence the large amount of paint that they have to carry and shoot.

Granted some teams can get the same job done with less paint (BAM is a great example) but the fundementals are still the same. A back player has to make sure that you stay put in your bunker, not shooting, inorder for his front players to have the best chance to eliminate you.

[JEDI]

See that? A smart man, and a Tourney player. Shooting lots of paint is some times part of the game.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by JEDI
That doesn't make any sense what so ever. If you dont like it than why do you concern yourself with the rules of it. Why should players that enjoy it have to abide by rules or the opinions of others that dont enjoy it.

All that has been said is that there are some that would enjoy playing limited paint games and there are some that do not like the tournament game as it is played now. Don't know why everytime a discussion about a different way of playing comes up there's always a tournament player with his knickers in a twist. You can play your game all you want. The original question was just why the current tournament games are that way.

I'm free not to attend the tournaments you enjoy. You're free not to attend a tournament that's limited paint, or stock class, or whatever.


How does that level the playing feild? Paintball is a sport where you're game is affected by the gear you own, plain and simple. My gun is different then your gun. I can afford more paint then you, (or vise versa). Whats next? Every one has to use the same gun because otherwise its unfair.

Like in car racing, there is room in Paintball for all styles of game. Open Class, no holds barred to Stock Class and limited paint. There's a lot of room between the two. There's nothing wrong with one type of marker only play either if you can put together enough people who'll play. If you don't like the rules of a limited game don't play, no one will force me to play your style of play and I won't force you to play mine. This thread wasn't about that.


Shooting a couple hundred times isnt a second chance, Its part of the game.

No you're absolutely wrong on that count. That's a part of YOUR game and the game played in the current tournament scene. For many people, it is NOT a part of their game and they'd like to limit the impact of those to whom it IS a part of their game.


I've been to several of the majors including world cup, and I've never seen any different class, limiting your paint. I'm not saying it doesnt exist, but its not main streem. If you like it, good. Play it, and stay out of the real speed ball games.

I can remeber when "speed ball" refered more to the movement of the players than the rate of fire. To each their own.

Considering the percentage of players that participate in the "majors", is that really 'main stream' or does it get more publicity than it deserves. Your statement is a little like attending nothing but F1 races and then proclaiming that F1 is "real" racing and other forms of auto racing are not.

For me, REAL Paintball(tm) was ten-player team Splatmaster and Nelspot-007 woods games. Thankfully I never played when the paint was oil-based. :D

In another thread an interesting question was raised. Why do companies sink so much money into the "majors" when the vast majority of players play recball and scenarios?


I still think many of you are missing the point. Speedball is not football or baseball. Rules of every one using the same bat or same ball do not apply. I have thousands of dollars in equipment. Major tournaments can cost a team hundreds of dollars. If you dont feel your equipment or budget is up to par, dont come out. Its not a matter of fair, or over shooting. Its part of the game.

You're the only one who seems to have missed the point. Nobody has asked that "YOUR" tournaments be fair. If that's the way you want to play so be it. But don't rag the rest of us who don't want to play that way and who would be interested in a different style of tournament by saying we "don't get it". Also I think a few might take offense to the suggestion that the tournament scene is 'real' while the rest is somehow inferior.

The original question in the thread was why tournament players sling so much paint. Which has been answered I think.

[Wc Keep]

i have to agree with scooter banzaimf and jedi here. if someone is shooting my bunker at 3-5 balls per second i have no fear what so ever in sticking my head out and returning fire. really anything over 5 especially in the upper realm of 9+ is what makes me stay in tight to my bunker. if i hear my bunker being hit 8 times in one second i can imagine that they are also flying pretty close to my bunker and a stray one can easily hit me.

again filling the lane is important as can be. i believe its said somewhere that in between each shot is 30 ft of space. (do a search it was said here i believe) 30 feet is a nice amount of space to dive right through and not be hit. if you are shooting 3 bps than that 30 becomes much larger and your chances of hitting that guy are very slim.

[Spaceman613]

its part of that style. I still would LOVE to see the different classses. Not to change how you play, but to add another way to play. I shoot a good amount to cover my front guys, but I also realize that speedball can be a whole new challenge with a limited supply of air or paint.

Ive seen some back guys shoot very little and be very effective (communication, and selected shots), and Ive seen back guys wsasting paint just to flutter their finger.

Unlimited paint is a fun game, but its not the ONLY game. My favorite is pump speedball. Its just different, I know most dont like it, but some do.

I would just love to see more WAYS to play the game. Maybe if some tried the different styles, they may find they dont like the "cover fire" methods as much, or maybe they will take new skills into the unlimited game.

I wont rag on the guys that shoot a case a game... if thats needed in the game. But new ways to play are always helpful to expand you skills. Heck, my semi game has helped my pump game with snap shots, and my pump game has helped my semi game with better placed shots.

now if I could only find more limited paint or pump games...

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
I still would LOVE to see the different classses. Not to change how you play, but to add another way to play.
...
now if I could only find more limited paint or pump games...

Well writen and well balanced.

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by Orange Crush


If you have accuracy, volume is not necessary. Have you ever played at a major event?

[FatMan]

I'll add that this is an argument that adds up to not understanding the game being played. If you are playing speedball with and against a team that has learned to work together, then you are faced with a number of realitys.

1) paintguns are inaccurate over the range the game is usually played in. products that improve accuracy are useful, but many don't really improve it that much.

When you shoot at a distance, the probably of hitting your target (which is usually very small) is some value. If you fire many time, the probability increases that one of your balls will hit.

2) paintballs bounce

Even if you hit your target, you might not mark it, you'd like to hit it 2 or 3 times. The more paint you send, the greater the probability that one or more balls will hit AND break.

3) paintballs are slow

It takes 2 -3 seconds for a paintball to fly across the court. Most good tourney players know how to point-shoot - which is a technique of shooting while only exposing themselves for 2 or 3 seconds. If you count in the reaction time, even if you have perfect accuracy and you know the ball will break, the likelyhood of hitting a small target appearing and disappearing from cover is very very small - you have to anticipate your target, and fire before he comes out. And a good player will not always come out at the same place.

You add all that up, and it makes sense that a back player will lay a sheet of paint at the spots on a bunker where a player might come out hoping to hit him.

4) finally, there are a bunch of guys over there who know where you are and want to shoot you.

If you are sitting in a perfect firing stance, and you are playing *good* tourney players, you will be shot out. If you want to stay alive, you have to learn how to come out just enought to fire, fire a burst, and come back in quickly enough that they can't hit you. How long a burst you can shoot depends on the field layout and how far back you are. The front guy learn to do 3-4 balls, the back guys learn to to 10-15 balls.

When you add this all together, this is where all that paint flying comes from. The name of the game then is to focus some of your players on a single target, while the rest of your players provide cover, then when you get an elimination, push a man and try to break the game open.

This is where "accuracy by volume" comes from. The overall changes of getting the guy go up if you intelligently distribute your paint - there are OTHER issues, like learning to time your bursts to you don't get caught out of cover, and learning your opponents patterns to increase the chances of catching him. I have been known to shoot several long strings from the back, and then at the end of one string suddenly slow down to 1 ball per second - the other player thinks I've pulled back in, pops out and takes one on the hopper.

As has been pointed out, these are NOT military tactics, there are not woodsball tactics, nor hunting tactics. They are speedball tactics and they WORK - that's why they're used. If you don't LIKE speedball, then I can see where this might not make sense, but that doesn't mean its wrong.

FatMan

[Miscue]

Anyone ever try playing front w/o any support?

You get DESTROYED. Front players have huge blind spots, limited mobility, gain a lot of attention from the opponents' guns, are pretty much tagged if someone is allowed a good firing angle on them... their position is the worst as far as defense goes.

Let's see... I'm gonna try to go for that sweet spot bunker up ahead since I'm sitting here doing nothing. Everyone is trying to shoot me or at least is paying close attention to me. Nobody on my team is trying to help support me because they have limited ammo. Let's go for it! Then you get your butt blasted...

Front guys cannot be consistently safe, mobile, nor effective... w/o support from the back. Keyword: Support. Heck, in the military with say a special forces group or something... people with high ROF SAW's and various anti-personnel weaponry are considered 'support.'

And, support requires a lot of ammo. If you limit ammo, you limit the amount of support possible. Limit support, you limit the effectiveness of front players. A huge part of the game is spatial advantage. The team that gains the most territory and holds the most space is at a huge advantage. Limit ammo = limit tools for obtaining spatial advantage... a huge part of the game's strategy becomes hindered.

What is a front player's incentive to go for that forward bunker if he lacks support? How do you hold down firing lanes? What's the point of a back player if he can't hold down firing lanes? We end up getting 10 dudes on a 10 man team... all playing mid-back. :) Of course, I'm not saying that you can't do these things at all, but you cannot do it anywhere as effectively.

Edit:
I reread what I wrote, I didn't try to make limited paint sound better or worse than unlimited. I'm all for limited paint as an option, I like the idea... variety = good. Was just trying to point out how the game changes drastically with the two options... some like it, some don't. With limited paint... "front player" "mid player" "back player" are terms that get washed out a bit... very different game altogether.

Bottom line is... unlimited paint = people will shoot a lot of paint at high ROF because it is a useful tool to gain tactical and strategic advantages... although it is only one of the many elements of the game.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Miscue
Limit ammo = limit tools for obtaining spatial advantage... a huge part of the game's strategy becomes hindered.

......
Edit:
......

With limited paint... "front player" "mid player" "back player" are terms that get washed out a bit... very different game altogether.

Bottom line is... unlimited paint = people will shoot a lot of paint at high ROF because it is a useful tool to gain tactical advantages.

You edited just as I was going to blast you. :D Nothing is "hindered". It's just a different game. Look at what a difference a bigger field and ball make to CFL compared to NFL. (Canadians have bigger balls! :D)

Yes the strategy would be much different. Personnally I'd love to see how well many of the professed pros would adapt to a new type of game.

[banzaimf]

on another note on this issue.

at 11.1 balls a second a 2 foot wide target (player hunched over and running) at a speed of 15 mph (pretty dang fast sprint speed) cannot run through the stream.

Now to go offtrack. I have played limited paint tourneys that were 2 cases for 8 games for the team. It was fun, and workable, but we were severely beating up the other teams so we didn't have to use a lot of paint. (2 games were max's in under 1 minute), which is to say, we didn't face really strong opposition that we had to put paint down to play against. When we practiced against good teams (UK Preds circa 96) the back guy (me) had to lay a lot of paint to keep them down so my guys could move.

I am not saying that you hammer at 13 a second all the time, but I need to fire at a pretty constant 5 or 6 bps to keep the other guys honest.

[Kevmaster]

there are different classes...
there are stock class tournies

there is the Pan Am which i am 95% sure limist the paint a player can carry

there are non-electro tournies


oh, and PGOG(pump gun owners group) usually sends a team to big tournies(IAO, SkyBall and WC come to mind). Guess who finishes ALWAYS in the bottom 5 teams? yep!

[Miscue]

I wrote it in a hurry, I'm at work. Of course I know that! That's obvious. I didn't word very well. What I had in mind for a hinderance... is if you were allowed unlimited ammo and you didn't make use of it while the other team did. Because it's allowed, people take advantage of it. And this answers the question as to why people shoot so much paint... it's because they can and it can be beneficial to do so.

If everyone has same rules, same limitations, then nobody is at a disadvantage. New rules = new game with new strategies and nuances. Just different is all...


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


You edited just as I was going to blast you. :D Nothing is "hindered". It's just a different game. Look at what a difference a bigger field and ball make to CFL compared to NFL. (Canadians have bigger balls! :D)

Yes the strategy would be much different. Personnally I'd love to see how well many of the professed pros would adapt to a new type of game.

[shartley]

Originally posted by banzaimf
Because people would get into bad situations and lay on the trigger clip after clip until they burned up the barrel.

Close, but not quite.... again, before using military analogies, please learn about it first. ;)

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Shartley: Think you posted in the wrong thread dude. Even the sprayers in this one aren't advocating FA in Speedball. But I do agree with everything you said none-the-less. 3 BPS vs 30 BPS is IMO only a physcological battle against the opponent and a crutch by the user that could only be hurting his pocket book.
Yes, it looks like that.. LOL I think I read the other thread and then this one right after it, and posted (been VERY busy… LOL) But also tried to keep an open mind and also stated "to each their own"... sort of. ;)

Originally posted by JEDI
Shartley, many times I've seen you attempt to disprove someones arguement by saying, "if you're gonna make an example, know what you're talking about." I mean no disrespect, and I'm not attacking you. Your post leads me to beleive you, in fact, have very little experience playing main stream tournament paintball. NO ONE brought up the full auto, and you sound rediculous arguing against it. Thats not the issue here.

I still think many of you are missing the point. Speedball is not football or baseball. Rules of every one using the same bat or same ball do not apply. I have thousands of dollars in equipment. Major tournaments can cost a team hundreds of dollars. If you dont feel your equipment or budget is up to par, dont come out. Its not a matter of fair, or over shooting. Its part of the game. If you dont like it, play on Shartley's private feild Stay away from Sky Ball or World Cup, because its not for you.
First of all, I do NOT play tournament paintball… but who cares? As I look back over the thread, I see that I read two threads back to back, and commented as if it was the same thread. I am sorry for this…. big hairy rear deal… how many mistakes does that make for me with over 5000 posts? Get a grip… and lay off the insults… bud. Geee…. Kind of puts a different twist to what I wrote, doesn’t it?
:rolleyes:

[banzaimf]

Originally posted by shartley

Close, but not quite.... again, before using military analogies, please learn about it first. ;)


Then please, enlighten us instead of merely telling me I'm wrong.

:)


(edit) forgot the smiley that automatically means I am not being combative in my statements :)

[shartley]

Originally posted by banzaimf
Then please, enlighten us instead of merely telling me I'm wrong.

:)

(edit) forgot the smiley that automatically means I am not being combative in my statements :)
There were a few reasons for the full auto to 3 round burst, and it had much to do with actual usefulness of each and round conservation. Yes, you could overheat an M16 barrel, but it was more likely to happen with an M60 where long belts of ammo were used. A 30 round magazine could surely heat up a M16 barrel, but the worse problem would be to actually run out of ammo from rapid magazine use.

A 3 round burst takes care of both issues, but is more designed for ammo conservation over heating issues. I have served using BOTH the M16A1 and the M16A2 and can tell you that I never had a problem overheating (not saying it didn’t happen to some in full combat situations but never happened to me) but did have to watch my ammo count much closer.

To take care of the Full Auto need, they came up with the SAW which shoots the same size ammo as the M16 (looks like a mini M60).

[banzaimf]

Suppression fire can be had with anything that keeps the other guys head down, and the ROF game is a natural extension in my mind. skipping 3 off the bunker and 3 right past the bunker usually will work to keep the other guy pinned. This is the objective as a back player (imo). I RARELY get tags when I play back, my goal is to get 3 assists per 10 man game. 3 times that guys get tagged while cowering away from me or while working on trying to get me. Either way, I want their attention on me as my fronts do the dirty work. what can I say, I am too fat and old for that running crap anymore :)

[dmonahan]

I have played all types, Unlimited (nppl) Limited (Pan-am) and stock (also Pan-am and osc) My team primarily play's Pan-am 5 man and the paint limit is 200 per player and 10 man is 500 per palyer. Once on the field you can distribute the paint any way you want. (we give the front 100, mid 200 and back 300)

There is a big differance between limited and unlimited play. But what it really comes down to is skill. The same teams that win at unlimited are the same ones that win in Pan-Am. Cartel for exampel. Limited will make you pick you shots with a little more discretion but playing one way over the other will not make you a better player.

[Tyger]

See, the other problem in all this is a culture created by a history of "Too much is just enough". Now we have a game that as a part of CULTURE you have the working theory that more paint is better.

And until we see a need, paintball players will keep the theory that more is better.

And what need will that be? Well, TV for starters. What's more dull than watching one team sit behind bunkers twiddling a trigger finger? Two teams. You need MOTION to keep a TV audience. I'm finding this the hard way working on the video. SPPLAT Attack is full of MOVEMENT and DYNAMIC ACTION.

So you need to keep people moving, and how do you do this? Lower the ROF through tech, which nobody wants. Limit the paint, which nobody wants. Create a fied that's so bunker heavy that you CAN get hop-up movements, but nobody wants those either.

So tournaments want the brass ring of being on TV? You need to encourage movement and action to make it entertaining to a TV audience. Hell, the audeience is being silenced so they can't cheer at major events, so perhaps it's all lip service to begin with, and the whole "TV" line is made as an excuse to get people to go along with the flow?

Forgive the rant, I just get frustrated to see this argument over and over. It's been discussed for 10+ years, and it's never reached resolution to anyone's satisfaction. That's a long argument, folks.

-Tyger (stirring up the muddy waters since 1989...)

[MinimagRockin']

I think that it is pretty obvious that with unlimited paint spraying is the way to win but I also think tournament play would be more intense with limited supplies. 400 rounds would be a good number.

[Mag pusher]

And this discussion will go on until people realize that this is all part of the evolution of the game. Things changes and developes by itself. You don't have to like it, but it sure will make your life easier if accept it :-)Playing tourneys these days requiers using a lot of paint. In a sup'air game (7 man) I carry a full hopper + 7 pods and I try my best to use it all. Greetings from Europe guys, have a great christmas and a great PB season 2003

[TheJester]

think of it this way, even if you're a good shot, which are you more lilkely to hit someone w/, if you shoot 1 ball at him, or 10 at him? if you figure you have a 66% chance at hitting a guy, and shoot 1 ball, you only have 2/3 of a chance of hitting him w/ that 1 ball, but if you shoot 10, w/ thos same odds, statisticly you should hit him w/ 6 balls(little of kill, but i was just using that for easy math, and to prove a point) and if some 1 is only shooting at you once in a while, are you gonna try to move? you prolly will, but if you hear an entire hopper be emptied on your bunker you're gonna keep your *ucking head down, makeing you useless in a game because you're not shooting. and besides, if there was a top prize of a sweet gun, or 1000's of dollars on the line, tell me, honestly, you wouldn't shoot more paint?

[shade23]

Originally posted by Tyger
See, the other problem in all this is a culture created by a history of "Too much is just enough". Now we have a game that as a part of CULTURE you have the working theory that more paint is better.

And until we see a need, paintball players will keep the theory that more is better.

And what need will that be? Well, TV for starters. What's more dull than watching one team sit behind bunkers twiddling a trigger finger? Two teams. You need MOTION to keep a TV audience. I'm finding this the hard way working on the video. SPPLAT Attack is full of MOVEMENT and DYNAMIC ACTION.

So you need to keep people moving, and how do you do this? Lower the ROF through tech, which nobody wants. Limit the paint, which nobody wants. Create a fied that's so bunker heavy that you CAN get hop-up movements, but nobody wants those either.

So tournaments want the brass ring of being on TV? You need to encourage movement and action to make it entertaining to a TV audience. Hell, the audeience is being silenced so they can't cheer at major events, so perhaps it's all lip service to begin with, and the whole "TV" line is made as an excuse to get people to go along with the flow?
-Tyger (stirring up the muddy waters since 1989...)

well there has been a recent development in speedball that encourages the type of things TV viewers would like to see (movement, dynamic action etc.) and that is the game X-ball. Its not limited by paint but by other aspects of the format such as bunker size, time limit, and the ideal of getting more than one flag hang to solidify your win. just a thought not trying to get anyones nose bent out or anything!

[Tyger]

Originally posted by shade23


well there has been a recent development in speedball that encourages the type of things TV viewers would like to see (movement, dynamic action etc.) and that is the game X-ball.

Been there, done that, got the jersey.

Played it when the USPL rolled out the format first. (Ask Tom Kaye, he was there too...) The X-ball format has a few MAJOR flaws in it, becasue the players won't take the few adjustments to make it look more dynamic.

I watched X-ball at the IAO, and I saw a lot of movement, yes. But, IMHO, they were putting on a show. Considering that players were 'encouraged' to 'tolerate' bonus balls (The Russian player who was shot 5+ times after he was already out hugged the American player who did it to him after being told to by a ref...), I openly wonder how much else they were told to do.

X-Ball wil bog down into the basic premise of sit and shoot, if allowed to continue on the path it's on. Why? Becasue that's what will happen as long as :

1) we are not taking ourselves seriously as athletes.
2) we do not take paintball seriously as a "sport".
3) players are not limited to work within a constraints to show true skill.

How do I know? It's happened. I've seen it happen MANY MANY times before. ESPN's games, for example, that were aired in 1995. With the rules used, AND the format used, the whole game was 15 minuttes of sit and shoot, and 2 minutes of run for the flag after we whitled down the other team. X-ball will be no diffrent, if no changes are made in plyer attitude or rules. MARK MY WORDS, because I'm NEVER wrong when I talk about this stuff. (It's not ego when your track record is 100%)

What needs to happen is movement. And you won't SEE that until the tech or the players or the paint alowed is changed. Sorry, won't happen. I've heard the grand plans before, I've heard the ideas before, I've heard all these promises over and over. And it's all empty, it's all just promises of a "New and exciting" format that is always the same old thing.

"A cash cow for paintball manufacturers and tournament promoters where the players get soaked for money." Same song and dance, new music.

-Tyger

[Sinnet]

tyger- great points, especially the last one on dynamic movement. You should post here more often, i've read a lot of good post of yours on the p8nt forums.

One of the more possible solutions for creating movement, along the lines of a more bunker-heavy field, would be having fields have more tall bunkers, especially towards the center of the field. It seems a trend towards this has already started, with field centerpieces like JT's Ziggurat-thing, diablo's car-wash, and all the other major monstrocities in the center of some recent speedball fields. Anything like this will foster more movement, because of the safety gained in moving up to such an obstacle, and do it without toning down tech, limiting paint, or overcrowding fields.

thoughts?

[HIKARU]

i think the base tournament style should include access to any equipment, and number of paintballs per game/tourney.

racing also adopts this attitude.

if you have the cash and want to use it, do it.

if you don't want to then by all means don't but your still allowed to participate.

filling lanes is a good move but comes at a huge expense paint-wise.

pan-am style restriction is good too, for those interested in a game with a different pace.

both types are still a "thinking man's" game, if you don't got game you won't be in the game long enough to unload all those pods...

everybody has preferences, if people like to shoot poorly and just wail the trigger so be it, if somebody wants to take their time aim thats fine too. its all preference.

i think its a good idea that they have an "open ended" type tourney system and one with "restrictions." offers players a choice.

[A.T.S]

I am happy to hear about the pan-am rules! I did not know they had paint restrictions. By the way, does anyone know where I can get my hands on some 45-50 round hoppers?

[Orange Crush]

All right, I reread this thread and think I misunderstood the quote. So yes Accuracy by volume is understandable.


Originally posted by Havoc_online
Have you ever played at a major event?

Yup, exactly one. Didn't enjoy it. Didn't do it again. Probably would enjoy one now, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Honestly though, I don't think that would matter much. The strategies and tactics for paintball are the same, regardless of the event and what "level" its at.

I understand filling the lane, especially when you expect a player to pass through there. What I don't understand about the "high volume of paint" issue, is laying 7-10bps into the bunker. Someone here said 3-5bps wouldn't keep their head down. I seriously doubt that. That would mean that at 5 bps, he would have exactly 2/10 of a second to come out of cover, aquire the target, take aim and fire. I don't see it happening. Also...why shoot the bunker? How many eliminations is that gonna get you? If I am holding you down, you can bet that my fire will be coming by you, as close to the bunker as possible, so should you happen to stick your head out, I'd hit you and not the bunker....but that's just me. Chances are I'd increase my rate of fire as well.

Someone also said that the game was all about eliminations, plain and simple...with that being the case, wouldn't you be better off taking a good aim on the edge of bunker and waiting for a target to present itself instead of keeping your opponent under cover?

Now don't get me wrong...I know that when an opponent moves from bunker to bunker a hail of paint is enroute, and that's justified. I just don't get the high rate of fire against bunkers or providing cover fire when its not needed.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Sinnet
One of the more possible solutions for creating movement, along the lines of a more bunker-heavy field, would be having fields have more tall bunkers, especially towards the center of the field. It seems a trend towards this has already started, with field centerpieces like JT's Ziggurat-thing, diablo's car-wash, and all the other major monstrocities in the center of some recent speedball fields. Anything like this will foster more movement, because of the safety gained in moving up to such an obstacle, and do it without toning down tech, limiting paint, or overcrowding fields.


Good point, but the problem is that these bunkers are not audience friendly. A "car Wash" is a cheater's haven, and the audience can't see IN there to see if the player is in or out. (Neither can the refs, actually...) Tall bunkers are OK as well, but then an audience member sitting on the other side of the field can't see what's opposite of that bunker. It's like getting a seat behind a pole at Wrigley. You can't see anything cool happening.

The better way to control movement on the field is to increase the odds to the runners. Restrictions to ROF / Paint consumption is the way to do that. I'm not saying go stock class (But, lemme tell ya, SC speedball is audience friendly!!!!!) But I'm saying that the ONLY way you can get people to move is to have a risk/bennefit ratio in which the risk of getting hit is low, and the bennefit of making a bunker is high.

You do THAT by loweing the ROF, or limiting the paint. Period. But, nobody wants to DO that, becasue it goes agains tthe theory of "too much is just enough", AND it would drive the "Credit Card Commandos" out of the "sport". Oh, and it would make the mediocre players get skill or get out. But, hey, whadda I know? I'm jsut a rec guy.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

-Tyger

[Sinnet]

heck, i'd love limited paint tournaments. Even the odds out a bit for a poor student like myself who only shoots a case, when going up against a sponsored team with four/five/more per person.

Do you think the paint companies would allow it?

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by HIKARU
i think the base tournament style should include access to any equipment, and number of paintballs per game/tourney.

racing also adopts this attitude.

if you have the cash and want to use it, do it.

Absolutely not true. Every racing series has some constraint on the design of the cars and the equipment allowed and the equipment required.

Allowed technology, maximum displacement, maximum intake area, turbo or naturally aspirated, gasoline/methanol/special blends, maximum amount of fuel per race, car silouette or manufacturer, and many, many, many others.

Some racing series are almost guarenteed to go to the deepest pockets but not all. There are racing series for those with unlimited funds and there are those for the budget conscious.

I think in paintball, some of us would just like to see a little of the same and some coverage of alternate classes in the paintball media.

[mykroft]

Couple of Things:

Shartley, Did you know the original SAW was an M16A1? Until they started issueing the M249, the M16A1 was used in the SAW roll, with most riflemen having the A2.


And now back on topic.

Throwing paint as a tactic becomes more important the larger the teams. In 3 man, it's quite possible to max a game on less than a hopper, a good stock class team can even be competetive. In 5 Man, your paint consumption goes up, because you now have a couple of guys playing back, and using suppressive fire to keep the opponents heads down, your front gus might burn through a couple of pods, a superlative stock class team might make the semis. In 7 Man, you now have mid players functioning like both back & front players, depending on the situation, and paint consumption goes up. 10 Man is 1 case 1 kill.

Your paint use depends on the situation you find yourself in, the more targets, the larger the field, the more pant you're going to use as a back guy. The front guys don't use that much paint.

And for those who like the limited paint format, Pan Am is hopperball.

[big E kingpin]

simple

BECAUSE I CAN

[someVWkid]

i am crazy.

[FeelTheRT]

Originally posted by Orange Crush

Also...why shoot the bunker? How many eliminations is that gonna get you?
...
Now don't get me wrong...I know that when an opponent moves from bunker to bunker a hail of paint is enroute, and that's justified. I just don't get the high rate of fire against bunkers or providing cover fire when its not needed.
people dont shoot at the bunkers, people shoot at the edge of the bunker so when someone tries to pop shoot, the guy pinning might get an elmination. And if the guy dosn't pop, he will just stay pinned or try to shoot from a different side if there is one.

i agree with you that you dont need the intense ROF to get someone out even if the person is running. I've tried burning off the break with many of the electros I have owned as well as slower shooting markers such as Cockers and Mags and i noticed that 3-5 extra balls in the air really dosn't affect the kill count. There might be cases where someone might get pass a lane of paint but not very often. I guess if people thinks it helps them eliminate more people by shooting fast, let them.