can someone explain to me what "freeflow" is.

[EsPo]

look up.. what on earth is it.. and why does everyone like it?

[SyntaxError]

Well son, when a man and a women love each other VERY much...

Oh wait, you said Freeflow?;)

Its nice and low pressure....and magical....

[DryIce]

www.4freeflow.com

[BajaBoy]

wow u never heard of a free flow cocker? (im not snapping at you im just in auw)

[xmetal2001]

I'm assuming your talking about a Freeflow Autococker. Well, its just another type of autococker. A very nice one, but still, just a type of autococker.

Doesn't have any revolutionary uncockerish designs.

[EsPo]

Originally posted by BajaBoy
wow u never heard of a free flow cocker? (im not snapping at you im just in auw) :rolleyes:

yes thats correct, i never heard of freeflow.....

actually i have heard of it, i just dont know what it is...

[PaInTbAlLeR476]

Prolly the most known cockers. When purchased you decide what going into them...(i.e. body color/style inside of the bolt area(w/e thats called) trigger frame, color of the pneus, reg, bolt, grips, barrel) A very nice gun. quite pricy as well.

[Jonno06]

what about the freeflow mods for Angels and Matrix's?

[AutoMaggot]

To get an autococker "Freeflowed" means one of two things (or both):

1. True bore and arbor-honing. Basically the internals are stripped of anno, and polished to an incredible shine, then plastered with a special coating which makes everything super-slick. Apparently it makes for a lower cycling pressure.

2. The newest thing is the Freeflow valve and Tungsten Hammer. When combined with their springs, the incredibly heavy hammer allows for a rediculously low cocking pressure, and the valve gives a huge boost in efficiency. My Freeflow *pictured* cycled at 33 PSI and gave me 2200 shots from my 88/45.

Professional Paintball, makers of the Freeflow, have been into Autocockers for quite some time, and have basically perfected how they come together in terms of parts and workmanship... whatever Freeflow throws on their guns is always the best.

[Daroach]

This is a 2k2 Lockout Edition Boxxer Freeflow

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=510585

Hope you enjoy the pic :p

[pbguy888]

What about like the free flow matrix? Is it just a really effiient trix with a diff. look to it?

[EsPo]

ic.. thank you for explaining.... is it hard to maintain? how much does the lockout freeflow run for?

[_Spork_1]

for a good custom one built to your specs around 950-1100

for just a normal one 800-900

[AutoMaggot]

About the Freeflow Matrix: Yes it is more efficient because Professional Paintball does "dead chamber" milling which opens up a lot of airspace. You can expect 1800 shots from a 68/45 on a Freeflow/Trauma Matrix.

[Conqueror]

I've lost some respect for Ethan and Freeflow lately because of the ridiculous and clearly false claims they've been making of late. They are claiming their new cocker valve can get 1900 shots on a 45/45, which (if you do the math) is greater than 100% efficiency. Even AKA (makers of the most efficient guns on earth) can only manage around 70% efficiency. What's worse is that, even when confronted with the math, they stick to their story and pump out loads of marketing BS designed to trick people into believing the hype rather than the physics.

CQ

[steveg]

Conqueror what is being claimed as 100% efficiency and
how was that number arrived at?

Wouldn't I love to get 1800 shots with my matrix

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by Conqueror
I've lost some respect for Ethan and Freeflow lately because of the ridiculous and clearly false claims they've been making of late.

Hey CQ, could you help me over at paintballresource? Some shmoe started spouting the rhetoric, and I started to look things up... but can't find all the math involved with the time I have. Did you happen to save any of the posts made in the past on this subject?

[AutoMaggot]

I could shoot over a case with my Freeflow on a full 88/45... it was NUTS. The 45/45 story was with no paint, and a FULL 45/45 fill. He tanked it up, let it sit, then tanked it up again and shot until it sputtered.

[dcmander]

Originally posted by AutoMaggot
I could shoot over a case with my Freeflow on a full 88/45... it was NUTS. The 45/45 story was with no paint, and a FULL 45/45 fill. He tanked it up, let it sit, then tanked it up again and shot until it sputtered.

Wouldn't it be LESS efficient with no paint?? :rolleyes:

[lonsch]

yes it would be less efficient without paint. and i thought they were saying 1700 on a 45/4500. thats still hard to belive. but if they are shooting at 250 fps it is posable

[i-luv-my-rt]

I can stick up for Ethan's sayings b/c I know him very well and have seen alot of his stuff proven. Why is 1800 shots out of a cocker unusual. I know alot of the lockout players run 45's on there guns and throw about 6-7 tubes easily. hats not 1800 but i can still believe it with a full fill.

What was the math to get 100% efficiency?

[AutoMaggot]

Dude, I'm tellin you... it was with no paint when he did the test!

[Ov3rmind]

Oh God AutoMaggot, get that beautiful piece of art off the ground!:eek:

I've shot a Freeflow before, VERY nice Cockers (probably my favorite, right next to the Revenge V2). IMO, they're the perfect combination of looks and performance.

[mykroft]

Freeflow mods to Angles just replace the Angel LPR with an External Cocker one. Very mild efficiency improvements on LED's, no benefit to an LCD or IR3.

And I get a case or more out of My Angel from a 88/45 on a full-to-the-brim fill, just takes a well tuned gun.

[Conqueror]

Originally posted by AutoMaggot
Dude, I'm tellin you... it was with no paint when he did the test!

No, it was definitely with paint. The story on their website says he shot numerous pods. You don't dump empty pods into an empty hopper.

CQ

[Conqueror]

Originally posted by i-luv-my-rt
I can stick up for Ethan's sayings b/c I know him very well and have seen alot of his stuff proven. Why is 1800 shots out of a cocker unusual. I know alot of the lockout players run 45's on there guns and throw about 6-7 tubes easily. hats not 1800 but i can still believe it with a full fill.

What was the math to get 100% efficiency?

1800 isn't unusual on a cocker with a larger tank, but it's not possible on a 45/45.

When I confronted Ethan with the math, he admitted that the last 400 or so shots were below 200 fps, if I recall correctly. So while it may be true that his gun cycles 1800 times with a 45/45, hundreds of those will be useless cycles. That's like claiming my shocker gets 1500 shots on a 45/45, simply because it still cycles at 30 psi and makes a little farting noise and pushes the ball 4 feet.

I'll try and dig up some of my old posts on the subject.

CQ

[Conqueror]

OK, found them. I'm gonna copy and paste the posts that were "meaningful" from a bonch of the old threads. Here goes...


Originally posted by lockoutethan
In house testing looks promising. Our goal is to get everyone on the team using 45ci tanks so we need about 2500 shots to make it happen.


Originally posted by Conqueror
I'm not sure that's even physically possible Ethan... it takes a shade over 13 Joules of energy to accelerate a paintball to 300 fps. In a 68/3000 tank, there is enough stored energy to shoot a little over 1700 balls, IF all energy from the gas went into the paintball (which it doesnt, since there's sound, recocking, etc). Those are what I'm pulling from memory, because I don't feel like doing any math right now. I seem to recall that a 68/4500 tank had enough theoretical energy for 2200 or so - how do you propose getting more from a smaller tank?

CQ


Originally posted by Conqueror
The average paintball weighs 3.23 grams. Flying at 300 fps, (91.44 m/s) it has 13.378 Joules of Kinetic Energy (1/2mv^2). Thus, a 100% efficient paintgun needs 13.378 J to fire the ball.

Let's use a 45/4500 tank for the next bit, since that seems to be the topic of discussion...

45 in^3, at 4500 #/in^2.

Multiply Pressure times volume, you get 202,500 in-lbs of energy.

Divide by 12 in/ft, you get 16,875 ft-lbs of energy.

1 Joule = 0.73756 ft-lbs. Divide 16,875 ft-lbs by .73756 and you get 22,879.49 Joules stored in a 45/4500 tank.

Remember, each ball uses 13.378 J. 22879.49/13.378 = 1710 shots on a full fill.

So, a 45/4500 tank has enough stored gas to shoot 1710 paintballs. HOWEVER, you'll never get a 100% efficient paintgun. The noise of the gun, the porting, the pneumatic recocking system, etc. will all subtract from the usable energy of the tank. Thus, the shot count from a 45/4500 tank must be under 1700.

CQ

Note - After I showed this to Ethan, he actually raised the claimed shot count to 1900 on a 45/45.


Originally posted by lockoutethan
I am no master of physics so the 101 class I barely passed tought me nothing. Maybe it's impossible. Right now we get about 1700 from the stock valve using our standard springs.

-Ethan

Note - he admits that he may be stating the impossible, but then he immediately does it some more.


Originally posted by Lockoutethan
In Chicago Paul O'Malley shot his 45ci Paintball Maina SS4500 Free Flow tank running 350psi directly into his RaceGun equipped Boxxer minicocker. He filled his bottle with the NPPL fill station (I don't know if it was set right or not). Then he went onto the field and shot nearly a case of paint (a few rounds were left in his loader). Paul regularly shoots JT Maxim paint at 290fps with a JT 12 inch Aluminum barrel.

He told me this and I talked to everyone else on the team and they were telling me that coming off the field they had tons of air. Our back players who normally shoot 1500 rounds per game had about 3000psi left in their 68ci tanks after a long game.

I naturally questioned this so I tested it when they got home. I took Paul's gun and filled it using our compresser (I filled it to 4500psi - let it sit for about 1 hr - then topped it off). Then I shot the gun over our chrono at an average of 285 fps for 2000 shots. The last loader was shooting about 200fps (it dropped off drastically to 200 fps about 3/4 through the last bag of paint in the case.

-Ethan

Note - The last paragraph is where he finally admitted that the last X number of shots were essentially unusable. Also, note the middle paragraph - he claims 1 ball per 1 psi on a 68 ci tank, which would yield 4500 balls with his wundervalve. But he only claims 2600 shots on a 68/4500 in his other posts, meaning he's contradicting himself. Also, his only evidence is that he shot an "average of 285 fps" for 2000 shots. Averages mean nothing - he could have fired the first 300 shots at 500 fps, and that would jack up the average to 285 even if the last half-case was at sub-par velocities. Of course, it's probably giving him too much credit to think he actually wrote down and averaged the velocities.


That's all I can remember or care to look for right now.

CQ

[steveg]

Thanks C!

interestingly, by your own math, at 280fps 100% efficiency
would equal 1945 shoots.

[Conqueror]

Originally posted by steveg
Thanks C!

interestingly, by your own math, at 280fps 100% efficiency
would equal 1945 shoots.

Yeah, but you know Ethan doesn't chrono at 280 when he plays tourney ball...

I based my math on the premise that 300 fps is a "full-velocity" shot. Even at 280 fps, his numbers are impossible (like 99% efficient), so it's moot anyway. He's lying, or stupid, or both.

CQ

[steveg]

www.media.mit.edu/people/aries/portable-power/node5.html
conqueror if you follow the above link you will see that the
author calculated that a 1Litre (~62in/3) 3000psi tank
has a stored energy capacity of 43 729J

a 68/3000 tank has 114000 psi/in3
a 45/4500 tank has 202500 psi/in3

almost twice the energy capacity

someones math here is wrong.

I do not defend ethan I don't even like cockers!

Another thing that I do not do is leave the field after
my velocity drops under 300psi (more like when the balls
drop after 3')
this ethan did infact state that he was including shots
down to about 200psi.

[FeelTheRT]

Freeflows are very much hyped up because there are many Cockers out there that preform very similar such as the Works, and the Rudy Custom Autocockers. I think the real reason why many Freeflow owners are loyal to ProPB and the Freeflow brand is because ProPB offers lifetime warentee on any Freeflow marker out there no matter who the owner is. So really what's it to you if someone else has lifetime warentee on their marker? hyped up.

[Conqueror]

Steveg: Hmm... that's interesting. While the fact that he's from MIT is indeed persuasive, I wonder if maybe that number at the bottom of his page is a theoretical energy extraction when the tank is used in conjunction with his "microturbine" or whatever it was. Also, the two numbers you cite (114000 and 202500 psi/in^3) are mystifying... psi/in^3 reduces to pounds per inch^5, and I have no idea what kind of unit that is. I think you were referring to in-lbs, or inches x pounds, which is an unconventional way of measuring the energy in the tank. A 45/45 tank does indeed have 202,500 in-lbs of "energy" inside; however, a 68/3000 has 204,000 in-lbs - a 68/3000 actually has a tiny bit more stored energy than a 45/45.

CQ

[steveg]

Ooops hee hee:o
that would be my bad math 68 X 3000=204000 45 X 4500 =202500

big hurry to leave this morning:o
yes psi x in3 does derive to lb-in
thats what you get for paying way to little to what
you are typing.

none the less the authors calculations would imply about
twice the energy storage than simple lb-in's to J conversion.

[manike]

not sure about the page you linked too...

but for me

68 X 3000 = 204000 inch pounds = 17000 foot pounds = 23000 J

45 X 4500 = 202500 inch pounds = 16875 foot pounds = 22900 J

an average paintball at 300fps has 10.4 foot pounds = 14.1 J

an average paintball at 290fps has 9.7 foot pounds = 13.2 J

an average paintball at 280fps has 9.4 foot pounda = 12.7 J

So for the 45 X 4500 tank for me you get

at 300fps 1624 shots at 100% efficiency.

at 290fps 1735 shots at 100% efficiency.

at 280fps 1803 shots at 100% efficiency.

Now the best proven test (decent test conditions) with any gun that I have heard of (it was an Excalibur I believe) gave the efficiency at 70-80% (can't remember the exact figure) but that's very efficient in my opinion (as compared to other energy transfer systems).

But if we use the 80% efficiency case then with the 45/4500 tanks

at 300fps we get 1300 shots

at 290fps we get 1388 shots

and at 280fps we get 1442 shotss.

And those numbers are much more like what we hear about happening in the 'real world' with very efficiently tuned and set up guns.

If you turn that into numbers we understand and given that some pods 'only' hold 140 paintballs and a hopper (Rev 180).

At 300fps you can shoot a hopper and 8 pods.

At 290fps you can shoot a hopper and 8.6 pods.

at 280fps you can shoot a hopper and 9 pods...

Now if some one was on the field just shooting at 280fps and shot 9 pods and then mistakenly thought their hopper held 200 balls and each pod was 150 balls you would get an incorrect total of 1550 shots instead of 1442. Which may account for some of the innaccuracy but not all of it...

Hey if we weigh the back block and bolt and cocking rod of a cocker as well as the hammer and cocking rod etc. we should be able to work out how much energy is used to cock the gun and close the bolt given a specific cocking pressure, and we can also use those figures to help get a more acurate set of values...

Opinions? Discussion points?

manike

p.s. Steveg try calculating the energy of the tanks yourself, I couldn't get any different result and I checked it a few times?... Can't see where I screwed up if I have.

[fearc7]

How effecient is the average automag? They seem pretty ineffecient but I don't really know what I'm talking about. How many shots do you get on a 45/45 with an automag?

[i-luv-my-rt]

WOW all this math is crazy. I'm pretty good in math and dont totally understand. I guess you cant argue with the exact math but it seems like you guys are having troubles to get the exact figures. Ethan is a very cool guy and very smart, I'll stand behind the stuff he says just because he is a good guy(and i'm to lazy to do the math). I did here the story about chicago and I know at world cup i think somebody shot like 1900 off a 68, i think thats what it was. I really dont see the need to argue about this, it's kind of like the BPS arguements. Everybody makes false accusations, i've learned to deal with it. You guys do sound very right though.

[steveg]

p.s. Steveg try calculating the energy of the tanks yourself, I couldn't get any different result and I checked it a few times?... Can't see where I screwed up if I have.

What? after my demonstration of my inability to do the simplest of arithmetic, with a calculator even:confused:

actually the 68/3000 45/4500 thing originaly was to show
that they had the same/similar energy capacity. (did a great job didn't I:o )

I have spent some time trying to find the calculations
for compressed gas energy storage (clearly for some-one else
to use;) ) to little or no success, as of yet.

The premise that I a working on at the moment is that
pressure X volume is not the correct way, Thus the link that
I posted.

Also I suspect that energy transfer from the expanding air
to the paintball is quite dismal even with the most efficient
of pb guns, leaving untapped potential
Of course I could also be wrong.

[wes]

Originally posted by Daroach
This is a 2k2 Lockout Edition Boxxer Freeflow

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=510585

Hope you enjoy the pic :p


:D too bad it ALWAYS breaks.... I think I'm going to tanks on saturday (next weekend) you better have it back by then!

[Daroach]

ALWAYS?! ... i just got the gun, and i ain't goin to tanks next weekend, i am goin out to Conroe

[Conqueror]

Very nice Simon. We'd need a lot of measurements to accurately find the energy needed to cock the gun! (Both coefficients of the ram's internal friction, mainspring constant, weights/inertias of all the parts, LPR pressure, ram piston area, etc.) Too much work! :D

Your math and mine are in agreement however; our shot counts are within like 10 or 15 of each other.

OOH! I have the answer! Ethan must have taped 6 handwarmers to the tank as he was shooting. :)

CQ

[steveg]

Back again

after plugging 45ci 4500psi and 68F into this neat and handy calculator
http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/chsajb/general/ideal_gas.html

we find that there are 9.386 moles of gas

there are 8.3145 J per degree K per mole

68F = 293K

8.3145 x 293K x 9.386m = 22866J say ! where did I see that number before:confused: :eek: :o

At least I proved it to myself.(Damn MIT guy's!) Can I go back to my nap know?

[manike]

Nice one Steve :) So I guess we are pretty much in agreement now then.

I've also been searching through trying to work out where the discrepency was.

Certainly when checking the SI units everything seemed to work out for the simpler method of calculations...

With the MIT calculations when calculating the work done, I don't think he is taking into account the lose of energy used by the gas to expand (this is why things around the expanding gas go cold). I think it's a significant amount of energy is required to be lost this way (certainly we put a lot of energy into the tank filling them which is why they get so hot).

He even admits to taking the expansion as being adiabatic, which is far from the truth! It's not a reversible thermodynamic process that occurs without gain or loss of heat and without a change in entropy...

If he doesn't take this into account (which he isn't because for him the gas temp stays constant) then he is getting a lot more energy in the work done than he actually could in real life...

manike

I think we took this thread off topic kinda... but it's good stuff. Might even be worth cutting out this discussion and putting it into deep blue... or maybe it's a valid thread for Round Table! That'd be a first ;) But I do think we just proved certain things about a manufacturer's claims?...

[Conqueror]

Thermodynamics were brought up the last time we did this type of discussion at PBC, but I think they're not applicable to this particular application anyway.

A certain amount of work had to be done in order to "cram" the gas into the tank. Getting cold means it's ABSORBING energy. Thus, even more energy has gone into the gas. Using U = Q+W, we can get the total resultant energy of the gas, but that work component (W) remains the same, and thus the same amount of work can be converted into the kinetic energy of the paintball. The heat (Q) is extraneous to the situation unless Q is negative, which would only happen if the tank got HOTTER (extracting heat from the gas and putting it into the tank material). Does that make sense?

CQ

[manike]

Originally posted by Conqueror
Does that make sense?

Nope. Thermodynamcs are absolutely relevant to this use of gas.

The gas uses energy to expand that's why stuff gets cold. It's taking heat energy from the surroundings, but it will also be using energy in itself to expand.

Entropy is important whenever work is done on or by the gas. In compressing or expanding the gas.

Compressing gas into the tank makes it hot. Not cold.

Expanding gas out makes the tank cold.

More energy has gone into getting that amount of stored energy into the tank than is stored.

Less energy (work) will be gotten out of the tank than is stored in it.

The temperature is vital in these energy transfers. That's why a flash filled tank is hot and reads higher pressure (and thus energy) than when it has cooled down.

manike

[manike]

Originally posted by Conqueror
Getting cold means it's ABSORBING energy. Thus, even more energy has gone into the gas

Nope...

The gas requires energy to expand. It takes that energy from it's surroundings. That's why it's surroundings get cold.