a stupid rt/cocker question

[BajaBoy]

ok this isnt that big of a deal just kinda pissed my off.

a guy on pbnation i think stated that any cocker with an Bomb 3way and eclipce frame can out shoot an automag rt of anykind. Now dont get me wrong i really do like cockers and think the way they work is amazing. My dad is owns three ware houses now and has his own factory that makes eyedroppers and such. I know im not a little bs kid that goes along with everyone. A piston aka "Ram" can not really cycle all that fast, the autococker pistons arnt even free moving! Not to forget i really dought that gas can go threw the hoses all that fast under a pretty low presure (sp) and its such a low volum. For air to go thre a reg down to 600 or w-e. then into the front end (Reg 3 way then piston) then for that to get enouph power to move the bolt in the breach and to cock it. Wow i really dont think it can out shoot an free moving high presure system (rt)


might get a little confused but w-e sorry im a little tired.

[big E kingpin]

well im not saying a cocker can keep up, but i just tongiht installed a bomb and an eclipse hinge and it rocks. i know that race guns have a cocker i think its a freeflow shooting 20 a sec full auto. so i dont think its so out of the question

[Brak]

depends on how fast you can move your finger, hinges can go purty dang fast, and so can RTs

[BajaBoy]

yes i do know that they keep up, my best friend has a shocktech cocker and from why he has said it is very fast. but i just dont like when people say that their gun is faster. I know for a fact that an rt is fasted bc ive seen both at the max.

im not so much talking about raceframes. I cn see them putting out the paint bc its all timed by a computer.

And also im not tryin to diss you, unless you think your gun is the best.

[Brak]

not sying my gun is the best, hell i want to trade it for an angel. im just saying that both are really nice guns and they both can shoot fast enough for a normal person

[BajaBoy]

Originally posted by Brak
not sying my gun is the best, hell i want to trade it for an angel. im just saying that both are really nice guns and they both can shoot fast enough for a normal person


very true. i just hate when people think their the best.. or they have the best

[AcemanPB]

The RT valve has been tested up to 30 times a second, while this was with an E-mag it is still the same design and idea.

The fastest I've seen a cocker shoot is a hair shy of 20bps and that was a raceframe cocker.

I think it is impossible to pull any legal semi-automatic paintball gun at 20bps or 30cps so the whole argument is pointless.

But to awnser your question, to my knowledge the RT valve has been tested at higher speeds than a cocker of any kind.

[Brak]

Originally posted by BajaBoy



very true. i just hate when people think their the best.. or they have the best

well, theres one person who can say that: manike and his xmag

[BajaBoy]

Originally posted by Brak


well, theres one person who can say that: manike and his xmag

he has the right too;)

[Havoc_online]

to my knowledge the raceguns that cycle @20bps are able to do so because they replace the 3way with a solenoid. Freeflows can cycle extremely fast, however simply by design, anything over 15bps and the marker is breathing very hard. The RT valve can take much more than 30bps if it needed too(it would be a heck of a lot more consistent at higher ROF too), it's been the fastest, it IS the fastest, it will STAY the fastest.

ROF is pointless nowadays though, everything's fast, just dont let anyone tell you the RT came in 2nd though.;)

Seriously, all that matters now(performance wise) is, how soft the marker is on paint(nothing is softer than a properly set-up lx!), what is most reliable(HA!),what has the best pull, and whats the lightest.

[petefol]

www.butters.org anyone?

[big E kingpin]

oh oh thank you, my emagnum. yeah thats right

[BajaBoy]

"ROF is pointless nowadays though, everything's fast, just dont let anyone tell you the RT came in 2nd though. "


thats what i wanted to hear! lol but your so correct about everything that u stated, just wanted to make sure i wasnt the only person that thought that

[FeelTheRT]

guns don't shoot themselves, so it is hard to say that he can shoot his Cocker faster than any RT. Though, it could be possible that he is one of those really gifted people who can pull triggers extremely fast. This arguement is pretty much pointless. Genereally speaking, RTs and Autocockers are in the same catagory as far as ROF is concerned.

[UThomas]

I have read that a nice autococker ram like an STO or Kapp can cycle around 30-35 times a second. In the Racegun video they are shooting paint at 20 a second. A Racegun does not use a pneumatic 4 way but instead uses a 5 way electronic solenoid.

An RT valve can cycle at 26 a second. On butters.org they have a clip of it shooting paint at 25 a second.

This leads me to believe both guns are hellashiously fast.

[Conqueror]

Trust me, the ram is NOT the limiting factor of a cocker. Cocker rams can easily cycle beyond 40 times a second - they generally take less than 20 ms to open and close, which is 1/50th of a second. The cocker will never be as fast as a mag can be simply because of the design of the entire gun (a hammer-based system with pneumatic recocking simply can't be as fast as a blowforward design). So the guy on PBN was wrong, but bajaboy is incorrect as to the reason.

CQ

[kman]

Holy cow that Retro Mag was fast. Is that trigger bounce? What is the tank output pressure set to? Was that even normal? I've got an X-valve coming and I already have an Intelliframe, can I shoot that fast? Man that was cool.

[manike]

Originally posted by UThomas
I have read that a nice autococker ram like an STO or Kapp can cycle around 30-35 times a second.

The ram might be able to, but that doesn't mean the gun can.

At some point the speed of the ram is governed by the maximum pressure you can cycle through the X-way or solenoid valve before things go 'pop' :)

You also need to take into account the mass the autococker throws back and forwards.

I've never heard of an autocoker being able to cycle that fast, but I have seen them achieve 20cps.

A special cocker running a very small cut down bolt and back block and running a high lpr pressure would be the fastest combination.

manike

[Ov3rmind]

Well, I have viewed vids of a Cocker shooting 19 BPS with paint (Racegun), which is faster than most people can pull the trigger. In other words, both guns can shoot faster than you can, both are fantastic designs.

Keep in mind, some companies are finding ways to drastically reduce the cocking mass now, which allows for much greater cycling speeds than older Cockers. The new Racegun Half Block and Mag Racer Cockers have cut down bolts and redesigned back blocks that are made to cycle very fast. ProPaintball (Freeflow), is also designing hammers (like the Tungsten Lite) that cut down on the cocking mass too. I'm guessing these enhancements could boost a Cockers cycle rate an extra 3+ BPS from the tested 19.

[BajaBoy]

Originally posted by UThomas
I have read that a nice autococker ram like an STO or Kapp can cycle around 30-35 times a second. In the Racegun video they are shooting paint at 20 a second. A Racegun does not use a pneumatic 4 way but instead uses a 5 way electronic solenoid.

An RT valve can cycle at 26 a second. On butters.org they have a clip of it shooting paint at 25 a second.

This leads me to believe both guns are hellashiously fast.


unless i see it i will never really believe that a piston can cycle even 27 times a second

[manike]

Originally posted by BajaBoy
unless i see it i will never really believe that a piston can cycle even 27 times a second

Why not?

In effect the bolt of a mag is working like a piston.

[BajaBoy]

Originally posted by manike


Why not?

In effect the bolt of a mag is working like a piston.

yea but the mags bolt is free moving. And cycles at alot higher pressure then a ram, and also there is no friction on the mag set up. Only thing really holdin a mag back is the spring. Im not at all saying your wrong just tryin to get my point across maybe? i dont really know im tired lol

[manike]

Originally posted by BajaBoy
yea but the mags bolt is free moving.

So are most top end cockers. Very free moving in fact.


Originally posted by BajaBoy
And cycles at alot higher pressure then a ram,

Pressure alone doesn't mean anything. It's P/A which is important and that's Force. This is the basis of how Level 10 works to make the bolt move more slowy and more gently at the start of it's stroke. 95psi in a cocker ram depending on the surface area of the ram creates more force on the ball than the small piston in a level ten mag does at 400psi. More force = greater acceleration (given the same mass, which granted I doubt there is here... the ratio is the important thing)


Originally posted by BajaBoy
and also there is no friction on the mag set up.

Yes there is. You can feel it when you slide the bolt back and forth on the powertube. With level 10 there is often more friction due to a tighter o-ring on the powertube stem.


Originally posted by BajaBoy
Only thing really holdin a mag back is the spring

Correct. Which takes a huge amount of force and energy to overcome... slowing the whole system down...


Originally posted by BajaBoy
Im not at all saying your wrong just tryin to get my point across maybe? i dont really know im tired lol

A little more sleep maybe? :)

manike

[FutureMagOwner]

well beyond this physics thing the guy on pbn maybe right... in his situation he maybe able to pull the hinge much faster than some form of an rt'd mags trigger for one reason or another. and as far as im concerned my impulse owns all :) (until i had to mess with it and turned it into a $720 blender with a $400 air system and a used halo)

also my comps been broken for about 2 weeks(O the horror of it all;) ) turns out kicking it to make it stop making alot of noises can break the fan which made the power supply overheat and corrupted the hd to the point where it needed to be reformated :rolleyes: anyway the point of this little description about my computer is manike, did you ever post pics of that personal body you made for your self and bill mills?

[BajaBoy]

ok mankie u win.


but just so i dont sound sooo stupid.


the mag "piston cycles with more pressure. more force, greater speed"


top end cockers... ive only messed around with shocktech and sto. so i cant really say much there

with the friction part, now that i think about it the mags sear.. yea lol your right

with the spring, well there is what was it 350-420 psi behind it?

yes i do need more sleep i was playin all day and a snow coverd field.


Lastly, this wasnt a thread to flame anyone. i love autocockers as much asw i love mags, i would have had an blackmagic but i desides to put the money away for a car.
__________________________________________________ _

-but i still agree with havoc

[Chris]

An RT can cycle at 26 cps while a cocker is limited to around 17 AFAIR, this is a mechanical thing with the time it takes to move the block back and forth stop and fire. So, no an RT can cycle faster, but which one can shoot faster depends on who is behind the trigger.

[DeathscytheSK]

I think its awesome technology how fast paintball guns nowadays can shoot, but me personally, I wouldn't care if my gun can shoot 10 bps or 30 bps becuase there will be no way I will need to shoot that much paint, or else I am looking to pay over 100 bucks in paint ;)

[Army_Pilot]

Seems to me the only limiting factor that is imposed upon the RT valve is the sear. I have owned every 'cocker known to man....I must say that I could never pump my cockers up to the capabilities of the RT. The downfall you see in the cockers is that they go down in consistency when higher volumes of fires and when the RT is layed into they are even more consistent. The Autococker's limiting factor would have to be the valve and hammer, you are still relying on the hammer to catch on the sear, whether or not you have a race gun or mechanical cocker. There are so many mechanical moving peices on the cocker that a fire speed capable of overtaking the RT would be both obsurd and impracticle. The 'Cocker would be so inaccurate and incapable of keeping a consistent velocity at that range you might as well be throwing the paintballs. That is why 'cockers became so popular...their accuracy at lower volumes of fire is hard to achieve.

[Conqueror]

The hammer of a cocker takes around 10 ms (often less) to move from the "cocked" position, strike the valve, open it, and come to rest. The rams takes 8ms to open, and 8 to close. My e-cocker can drop the sear in 3ms when the gun is cocked. Those four actions I just listed are the only things that must take place for a cocker to fire and recock. 3+8+8+10 = 29ms. This would suggest that the cocker design is capable of well in excess of 30bps, if we had inline regs and LPRs that could keep up. Like I said, it's not the design of the cocker that is slow, it's the air and paint insertion systems. :D AGD needs to make that RT inline reg.

CQ