Salm Speaks Out [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

magman007

01-06-2003, 03:28 PM

Why on earth would you pick up a recognized cheter to coach your team? so he can teach them how to cheet? you dont need to wipe to win, and we all know avalanche is notorious for wiping now dont we?

If i was sponsoring my team, i would want them to come acrossa s the good guys, the clean cut team, the team that wins, despite the cheating and the odds. isnt that what you would want?

Paintball is a game, paintball is a sport. In other pro sports, how many flagrant fouls do you see? not many. Why is that? because they hire the best, the ones that wont cost them valuable points, yardage, players etc.

Salm is a cheater, Avalanche are cheaters, it would be clear that the feelings would transfer over from team to team.

Salm, was not, nor will he ever be better than i am. I cannot see how he could be. Unless, every shot i put on him, he happens to wipe.

and lastly, if he were coaching on my team, i would leve, as i do not want to be related with him in any possible way. He tries to justify what he did in that article, and it is utter bullcrap. How does shooting people in the woods, find out if you love the game or not?

Also, he does have a drug history, as many of Avalanche do.

hitech

01-06-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by blnk162
Skill wise.

Maybe, maybe not. It could be that he just cheats better than you.

blnk162

01-06-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by shartley
And anyone who would want him ONLY because he is “skilled” can have him. There is more to the sport than that, and there are too many players with skills to settle for half a package….. all skill, no morals. At what point do we draw the line between the potential to “win” and the potential to hurt the team in the long run. I think with him, we see that line clear as day.

But we are all entitled to our opinions. ;)

Well put, but if you really believe he acted by himself without Ed knowing, you have got to be kidding me. I dont feel like going in depth but I know from the head judge of the NPPL and history that
1.)Avalanche was not the only team doing it, just the only team that was caught
2.)I think Aftershock did it to all americans in like 95 i think it was

pito189

01-06-2003, 03:34 PM

FeeltheRT, that is a hillarious picture. People settle down. Who cares. He's not playing at that what the suspension was for, not Playing. He is completely within the rules this time.

blnk162

01-06-2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by hitech

Maybe, maybe not. It could be that he just cheats better than you.

Eh...

I have played against him a few times hes really good...

Do you really think that him cheating is the only thing that seperates him and you or anyone?

I play at badlandz and have played against the best of the best...cheating isnt the only thing seperating us man.

lonsch

01-06-2003, 03:38 PM

I love it when people on this board rag on tourney players and say that they are all cheaters. I have played tourney ball for a few years. I have also reffed at a rec field for a few months and I saw the most cheating in my life during REC GAMES!!!!!

What is wrong with you guys? You act like the saints of paintball.

I do not think what Salem did was right but im not going to bash a whole group of people because of what he did. That's kind of like saying all people that shoot mags suck at paintball....

1stdeadeye

01-06-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by pito189
FeeltheRT, that is a hillarious picture. People settle down. Who cares. He's not playing at that what the suspension was for, not Playing. He is completely within the rules this time.

He wasn't "playing" when he got in trouble was he?;) :p

Hey anyone else find Snowslide and Avalanche to be aweful similar names?;)

Evil Bob

01-06-2003, 03:44 PM

Once one has gone down the easy path of cheating and made a habbit of cheating on a regular basis, they will stick to what comes easy.

That being said, I would not want to be associated with any team that he coaches for the simple fact that once a cheater, always a cheater. Old habbits die hard.

I got out of proball for the simple fact that we started holding cheating classes/discussions to even out the playing field (the rationale was "everyone else cheats, so why don't we?") and I refused to participate. I always held that we were better then that, we didn't need to cheat to win. Others felt differently, so I left them to their ends.

Yeah, he's got skills alright, just not any that I want to aquire.

-Evil Bob

shartley

01-06-2003, 03:44 PM

pito189

01-06-2003, 03:45 PM

Well his suspension was from playing NPPL in 2003. The mountain series isn't NPPL. Coaching a team in the NPPL is not playing.

Yes very similiar names. Snowslide is kinda corny sounding for some reason.:confused:

FeelTheRT

01-06-2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by magman007

Why on earth would you pick up a recognized cheter to coach your team? so he can teach them how to cheet? you dont need to wipe to win, and we all know avalanche is notorious for wiping now dont we?
In a way, yes. Not necessarily teaching how to "cheat", but tactics, if you will, that are sort of on the border line that can make the difference from winning and loosing, such as effectivly shooting blind. It really depends how you define a cheater. If you speak morally, don't we all cheat? Shooting back when bunkered, having a reff check a player repeatedly to move up, shooting blind over a bunker, etc. There are ways to get around rules without acutually having to "cheat". And when your in a huge competition, people aren't as friendly anymore espeically if they have gone far.

Salm, was not, nor will he ever be better than i am. I cannot see how he could be. Unless, every shot i put on him, he happens to wipe.
isn't that a little literal? He has skill, other wise he wouldn't be in the proffesional division. You can't cheat your way through a try out.

Also, he does have a drug history, as many of Avalanche do.
drug history as in smoking a doobie? Drinking alcohol is just as bad. IMO, alcohol is worse than smoking pot, because alcohol changes your brain chemistry making you require it in your system. Unlike real drugs, marijuana is NOT addictive. You can not get addicted to maryjane which meens you can stop whenever you want to as long as you have the commitment. I meen honestly, just about everyone has tried it in their lifetime, and i think it is good to try different things once in a while but knowing your limits.

blnk162

01-06-2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by shartley

You have a point. There is cheating everywhere. I will however say that there is a huge difference between a Rec Player cheating and a PRO (i.e. professional, being PAID to play) doing it. I will not stand for it from anyone, but less from those in a higher position.

…..Saints of paintball? Well, if that means I don’t cheat, you bet! :D Put me in for that Sainthood. ;)

And as for bashing a whole group for what Salem did….. who did that? Every time someone said anything bad about someone or a team, they did so because of that person’s or team’s actual actions.

So then what is considered worse or less moral cheating for pleasure(rec ball) or cheating for money and and keeping business running...what if cheating came down to putting food on the table of Ed Poormans kids if he had any is it alright then?

magman007

01-06-2003, 03:49 PM

OK, the name is SALM not salem, salem is a ciggarete company, and a place in massachussets, as well as then name of the funny cat on sabrina the teenage witch

AS well, add me to the sainthood. I am a novice player in the southamerican millenium series, and have never cheated, nor will i ever cheet.

thank you

FeelTheRT

01-06-2003, 03:52 PM

Salem is also the captical of OR.

painball

01-06-2003, 03:53 PM

most pro players money isn't made from tourneys. They do have jobs, too. Cheating in tourneys is the most immoral thing in paintball. Some teams actually play by the rules and win a lot, but playing against cheaters makes it mighty hard!:rolleyes:

blnk162

01-06-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by painball
most pro players money isn't made from tourneys. They do have jobs, too. Cheating in tourneys is the most immoral thing in paintball. Some teams actually play by the rules and win a lot, but playing against cheaters makes it mighty hard!:rolleyes:

Actually...Most Pro players are Industry heads and promoters..ie: Avalanche doing bad at world cup means lack of sales means less profit means no money for eds kids dinner...

see what im saying?

shartley

01-06-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by FeelTheRT
Originally posted by magman007
Why on earth would you pick up a recognized cheter to coach your team? so he can teach them how to cheet? you dont need to wipe to win, and we all know avalanche is notorious for wiping now dont we?
In a way, yes. Not necessarily teaching how to "cheat", but little tricks that are sort of on the border line, such as effectivly shooting blind. It really depends how you define a cheater. If you speak morally, don't we all cheat? Shooting back when bunkered, having a reff check a player repeatedly to move up, shooting blind over a bunker, etc. There are ways to get around rules without acutually having to "cheat". And when your in a huge competition, people aren't as friendly anymore espeically if they have gone far.
Sorry…. those little “tricks” you mentioned are not a part of my game. And since when is shooting back when being bunkered “cheating”? Two people shooting at each other at the same time is part of the game. Now if you shoot back AFTER being bunkered (not WHILE), you cheated…. Just like any other time in the game.

Sticking to the rules and playing an honest game says a lot about an individual, as does NOT. ;)

Originally posted by FeelTheRT
Originally posted by magman007

Salm, was not, nor will he ever be better than i am. I cannot see how he could be. Unless, every shot i put on him, he happens to wipe.
isn't that a little literal? He has skill, other wise he wouldn't be in the proffesional division. You can't cheat your way through a try out.

Also, he does have a drug history, as many of Avalanche do.
drug history as in smoking a doobie? Drinking alcohol is just as bad. IMO, alcohol is worse than smoking pot, because alcohol changes your brain chemistry making you require it in your system. Unlike real drugs, marijuana is NOT addictive. You can not get addicted to maryjane which meens you can stop whenever you want to as long as you have the commitment. I meen honestly, just about everyone has tried it in their lifetime, and i think it is good to try different things once in a while but knowing your limits.
Tryouts….. LOL For every player that makes it into the Pro Sports (paintball and any other) there are 100 or more people as talented or MORE talented than they are. Just being a Pro does not tell the whole story.

And your drug argument…… oh my. Marijuana is known as a gateway drug. It often leads to harder drugs (but not always), and is at this point in time it is ILLEGAL. All the arguments about Alcohol VS Marijuana will not change the fact that one is LEGAL and the other is ILLEGAL. And those with serious alcohol problems are just as “bad” as those who take illegal drugs.

So any “one bad thing is better than another bad thing” arguments hold no weight.

cphilip

01-06-2003, 03:58 PM

Well alls I know as I would rather have fun and feel good about myself in losing before playing with cheaters just to win anyday...And if I feel good about myself AND win then thats ane even sweeter success! :)

lonsch

01-06-2003, 04:00 PM

How is cheating in a tourney worse than cheating in a rec game? I would say wiping on a new player out with his dad to have a good time is worse than wiping in a tourney game where everyone has a ferm grasp on the game.

shartley

01-06-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by lonsch
How is cheating in a tourney worse than cheating in a rec game? I would say wiping on a new player out with his dad to have a good time is worse than wiping in a tourney game where everyone has a ferm grasp on the game.
LOL I don’t believe I read that.

So, someone who has a poor grasp of the game and wiping is WORSE than a PRO who makes part of his living by PLAYING the game doing it is? What kind of backward thinking is that? Those with LESS grasp of the game should always be given more leeway than those who are professionals. As well as those doing it for purely entertainment purposes VS those who do it for a living.

My goodness… I have seen it all now…

painball

01-06-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by lonsch
How is cheating in a tourney worse than cheating in a rec game? I would say wiping on a new player out with his dad to have a good time is worse than wiping in a tourney game where everyone has a ferm grasp on the game.

Tourneys are expensive. Cheating could mean you take away the win from a non-cheating team like you. Cheating is the lazy way to win. If you can't win fairly then why try anyways. Just my .02. I don't want any more flaming goin on.

tranman

01-06-2003, 04:26 PM

Paintball is a game, paintball is a sport. In other pro sports, how many flagrant fouls do you see? not many. Why is that? because they hire the best, the ones that wont cost them valuable points, yardage, players etc.

You don't see so many outbursts in pro sports because the fines are too heavy (which is the point) to be running your mouth off all the time. Taunting in football will get you penalties and fines from the league. Getting fined $10 000 plus just for mouthing off and getting suspensions is enough to keep most pro players in line.

Now watch a pro paintball game, you hear swearing all the time, mouthing off to refs in games, when it states in most paintball tournament rule books swearing is strictly not allowed. Maybe the NPPL and PSP, etc. should take more responsibility by fining/punishing players with suspensions,etc. to keep this sport more respectable. Maybe that will let this sport get into the main stream and attract more players?

blnk162

01-06-2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by painball

Tourneys are expensive. Cheating could mean you take away the win from a non-cheating team like you. Cheating is the lazy way to win. If you can't win fairly then why try anyways. Just my .02. I don't want any more flaming goin on.

Your assuming he cheats.

PsychoBaller

01-06-2003, 05:00 PM

pathetic.....just pathetic..... Salm should still be shot... and 2 thumbs down to the people that went and did an interview with him..... just giving him more attention...

bah....
~da "not enthused" baller

painball

01-06-2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

Your assuming he cheats.

Uhhhh...isn't it obvious?

Fred

01-06-2003, 06:07 PM

Salem is also the name of the High School I graduated from in 99...

as for the whole Salm bit... I personally think that anyone who plays with him, gets coached by him, looks up to him, etc, is guilty by association as a person with poor integrity, and I wouldn't doubt it if they're a cheater.

It's a great example of why a single organization is needed to keep tabs on all tournaments, at all levels. Keep the players straight, keep the game fun, and keep the doubt of whether or not the 1st place team earned their wins.

Yet another personal reminder of why I don't ever see myself playing serious tournaments.

---Fred

Rooster

01-06-2003, 06:27 PM

Anyway you slice it they are still better than YOU

I have no doubt that they are better at cheating than I am.

And as far as teams picking him up, it just goes to show what a joke tourny paintball has become.

lonsch

01-06-2003, 07:35 PM

shartley quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lonsch
How is cheating in a tourney worse than cheating in a rec game? I would say wiping on a new player out with his dad to have a good time is worse than wiping in a tourney game where everyone has a ferm grasp on the game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL I don’t believe I read that.

So, someone who has a poor grasp of the game and wiping is WORSE than a PRO who makes part of his living by PLAYING the game doing it is? What kind of backward thinking is that? Those with LESS grasp of the game should always be given more leeway than those who are professionals. As well as those doing it for purely entertainment purposes VS those who do it for a living.

My goodness… I have seen it all now…

that's because you read it wrong. you misunderstood the point of that post entirely

the meaning of that post is that i feel it would be worse to wipe a hit that a newbie gave you because he would take it worse than a tourney player who deals with cheating all the time

blnk162

01-06-2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by painball

Uhhhh...isn't it obvious?

No, Obvious would be him saying I CHEAT or you catching him cheating, not being Mrs. Cleo and assuming.

cphilip

01-06-2003, 08:06 PM

Blnk...(sigh) I begining to figure you got Toe Jam for brains son....

:rolleyes:

mag-hatter

01-06-2003, 08:17 PM

some person at my local field shot from out of bounds and was hitting people from the other team and the people that got hit thought that they were hit fairly from someone on the field and the team that out of bounds shooter was on won. some guy from the opposite team gave him a REALL *** chewing for it.

blnk162

01-06-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
Blnk...(sigh) I begining to figure you got Toe Jam for brains son....

:rolleyes:

Well come on man, hes making a huge insulting assumption...

benzy2

01-06-2003, 09:21 PM

why would learning skill and ways of moving on the field from him be wrong. I mean i personally suck at speedball and would love for anyone that is very good to help me out. I wouldnt want to learn any illegal skills but how to snap shoot quicker and how to stay in my bunker better and how to move from bunker to bunker at the right time and stuff like that would really help. I would have no problems with his help. I would piss him off and rag on him for cheat so i kinda doubt he would help me but if you think that is wrong then i am lost. If a running back gets in a fight and is susspendid from playing is it wrong to take tips on how to lift and what drills to do. I wouldnt talk to him about the moral part of the game just the skill part. I personally have only played 2 speedball games and a ton of rec with my friends. I dont find it right to cheat with them as it is all fun and cheating just eliminates the fun.

magman007

01-06-2003, 11:13 PM

Here we go again.

First off, Speaking of the out of bounds thing, i read an article about todd addamson, where he was mr big stuff etc. Now, in that article, he said at practice, they like to go into the fields and shoot over into the other fields, and watch the newbs get confused. a little bit of of a link here? I have since searched for this article, but it appears that it had been taken down a while back, the old a discussion may still be here some where tho!

Feelthert, i know you play tourny ball ,and are same rank as i. LEt me say this, i know all the cheep tricks, but i will tell you, i honestly never use them, why? because everyone diserves a fair chance. Now i ask you, do you use these little gateways to winning? if you do, you have lost all of my respect.

Cheeting is lame, why do you want to justify it? also salm, and most of not all of avalanche is a group of cheaters, as well are other teams, but look at the most of the others. Aftershock has really cleaned up its image, and i suggest the others do the same.

I also agree, that the nppl, and the psp need to start cracking down, and stop beingf such wienies. maybe chuck can do that now, that the psp is out of his hair. Maybe he can enforce some friggin rules, without the psp's pressure to not call their team for cheating. Remember the psp had been run by industry leaders.

Also i ask you this, why doesnt europe, as well as south america have these problems? i am baffled by this.

MArajuanna also changes your brain chemistry bub. It slows you down, and that is a fact. you know that nice clear liquid in your brain? the one that helps transfer your synaptic impulses? well.... marajuanna changes that nice clear liquid to a dull grey sludge. as you can guess, your impulses do not get relayed as well and you baisically f your self up. Ever hear the saying "he smoked him sell retarted"? well that has some truth to it, and it is for the reason above i had stated.

Thank you again, now please, can we all agree that cheating, and playing in the grey area is not cool, and not respected? Alot like Jeremy Salm?

1stdeadeye

01-06-2003, 11:24 PM

Blnk,

I bet you believed Marion Barry when he was carted out of that Hotel in D.C. screaming, " The Do not avoid the filter. Its the same thing as cursing - cphilip

Salm admitted that he cheated during that game. He claims to have lost his head under the pressure. Come on man, someone who snaps goes postal. They don't go ninja with a borrowed gun and hide in the woods an hour before the game to do some sniping. Once a cheater, always a cheater!

Also, Snowslide will be playing at NPPL events, so Salm should have been banned entirely, not just from playing, but a Pete Rose style ban!

lonsch

01-06-2003, 11:58 PM

he wasn't talking about salm he was talking about me

TheBigRaguPB4L

01-07-2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by lonsch
he wasn't talking about salm he was talking about me

I wonder how long that will be here before it gets edited. I would assume that everyone here is talking about salm. And if someone isn't, then most of everyone is thinking taht they're talking about salm. Relax.

Isn't it obvious that "pro" paintball will always have rampant cheating. It's all about who has the money. We don't, they do. Granted all of the "pro" teams do have real skill. My team has played 1 pro team and had some of our refs on the field and they didn't need to cheat to wipe the floor with us. But as a morality standard, i really don't believe that they could touch us. To say that they don't have skill is just stupid. I do agree that they don't have any morals due to their willingness to slide on a hit, but skill less.............hardly.

I'm sure their are good teams out there that don't cheat. I just find it hard to believe that they can be a top team if the majority of the other teams do cheat. You really need to be that much ahead of the other team if you're honest and they're not.

Tyger

01-07-2003, 04:18 AM

Originally posted by lonsch
I love it when people on this board rag on tourney players and say that they are all cheaters. I have played tourney ball for a few years. I have also reffed at a rec field for a few months and I saw the most cheating in my life during REC GAMES!!!!!

This requires a comment.

This seems to be the universal tournament answer when presented with cheating. "Rec players cheat so much more than we do."

If you allow that, say, 5% of players cheat. Wha'ts going to be a higher number? 5% of 2000, or 5% of 2,000,000? There's more of a rec-base, so yes, you're numerically going to find more.

The diffrence is that tournament players go out of their way to say they are the best players in the world. So when the 'best' cheats on TV (I've got some GREAT Stuff from old ESPN tapes, I'll see if I can dig 'em up...), they act all surprised that they get #1 caught, and #2 asked to account for it. I remember Oh PAwlack squirming for a month on RSP when he was asked to account for playing on with a hit on his goggles on ESPN! (Click here for the post (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3tv5bf%24r7a%40newsbf02.news.aol.com&output=gplain) and Click here for the thread (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3tv5bf%24r7a%40newsbf02.news.aol.com&rnum=4&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DESPN%2BOh%2BBad%2BCompany%2BIronmen%2 Bgroup:*paintball*%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D3tv5bf%2524r7a%2540newsbf 02.news.aol.com%26rnum%3D4) I hope. There's a lot more in this debate, but this is what I'm talking about... Here's more of it too... (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3tkkfu%24sg7%40mark.ucdavis.edu&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DESPN%2BOh%2BBad%2BCompany%2BIronmen%2 Bgroup:*paintball*%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D3tkkfu%2524sg7%2540mark.u cdavis.edu%26rnum%3D6))

Anyhow, I digress.

Overall, if you're gonna play the game, and get the public's adoration, you better be ready to take the stones thrown at you too when you bretheren screw up...

-Tyger

ogre55

01-07-2003, 09:33 AM

Tyger, you do not have to dig that far back to see pro players cheating and cheating blatantly. In one of the most recent Force of Nature tounry tapes (IAO I think) there is footage of BLATANT cheating by various pro teams. I remember a member of either Team Strange, Ironmen or Avalanche (I don't remember which one) playing on with a hit to his googles and his mouthpiece.

The FON cameraman was able to zoom in on his face, so there was no doubt what was happening. You could even here the cameraman in the background saying "Call yourself out".

Ogre

1stdeadeye

01-07-2003, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by lonsch
he wasn't talking about salm he was talking about me

Edited after CPhillips correction.

P.S. Lonsch, got X-Mag? I do!:p

blnk162

01-07-2003, 01:08 PM

None of you are even CLOSE to having the pressure pro's do when it comes to cheating so even if it isn't justified there are reasons for it.

You are all acting and speaking as if you were playing for 100,000 dollars at the world cup.....

cphilip

01-07-2003, 01:14 PM

Double talk contradiction...

"Justifications"..."Reasons"....same thing....:rolleyes:

shartley

01-07-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by blnk162
None of you are even CLOSE to having the pressure pro's do when it comes to cheating so even if it isn't justified there are reasons for it.

You are all acting and speaking as if you were playing for 100,000 dollars at the world cup.....
Sorry, that argument is total wookie poo. ;)

I am not a politician, but I expect them to be honest and do what I want them to do. I am no longer a police officer, but I expect them to do their jobs correctly. I am not a pro football player, but I expect them to follow the rules of the game. I am not a doctor, but I expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities. And the list goes on….

I don’t care what the “reasons” are that folks cheat. There are “reasons” why folks murder other people too. There are “reasons” people rob other people too. But simply put, there is no GOOD reason or ACCEPTABLE reason to do any of these things (to include CHEATING).

Pressure? They CHOSE to play the game, and at that level. If they can not handle the “pressure” they should not play at that level… period. Giving excuses for bad behavior is almost as bad as the behavior itself. When we accept bad things, we are as bad as those doing those things.

blnk162

01-07-2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by shartley

Sorry, that argument is total wookie poo. ;)

I am not a politician, but I expect them to be honest and do what I want them to do. I am no longer a police officer, but I expect them to do their jobs correctly. I am not a pro football player, but I expect them to follow the rules of the game. I am not a doctor, but I expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities. And the list goes on….

I don’t care what the “reasons” are that folks cheat. There are “reasons” why folks murder other people too. There are “reasons” people rob other people too. But simply put, there is no GOOD reason or ACCEPTABLE reason to do any of these things (to include CHEATING).

Pressure? They CHOSE to play the game, and at that level. If they can not handle the “pressure” they should not play at that level… period. Giving excuses for bad behavior is almost as bad as the behavior itself. When we accept bad things, we are as bad as those doing those things.

I think Ive grown desesitized to all these issues...playin at badlandz turns us hard real quick...maybe its me but I dont care about all this as you guys do...itll be around forever...

ogre55

01-07-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

I think Ive grown desesitized to all these issues...playin at badlandz turns us hard real quick...maybe its me but I dont care about all this as you guys do...itll be around forever...

Blnk, I am sorry to hear that. The more people that let this type of stuff slide, the more acceptable it will become.

As for it being around forever, we shall see. I think that if a tounrny circuit decides to make penalties for cheating harsh enough so that cheaters will, in fact, not proper, and then decides to ENFORCE those penalties, the cheating will decrease exponentially.

Maybe now that the NPPL and PSP are no longer in bed with one another, some of this will actually happen. We shall see.

Ogre

Tyger

01-07-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by blnk162
None of you are even CLOSE to having the pressure pro's do when it comes to cheating so even if it isn't justified there are reasons for it.

I'll have t use that next time I get pulled over for speeding.

"Officer, I may not be justified driving at 50 MPH through a school zone, but there's a reason for it!"

Look, so-called pro players (Who aren't professional, they have to pay for the privlidge of being called that, they're not being paid) have only pressure they put on themselves. As far as I'm concerned, all they're doing is justifying in their own mind why they do what they do. And it reflects badly on paintball as a whole when the 'best of the best' have to cheat to win.

-Tyger

lonsch

01-07-2003, 03:37 PM

why do i feel like im talking to people who have never played a tournament in their life

cphilip would it be better if i said the guy had toe jam for brains?

shartley

01-07-2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by lonsch
why do i feel like im talking to people who have never played a tournament in their life
LOL That is like when someone says that speed limits of 30-35 in residential areas is a good thing, saying.. “Why do I feel like I am talking to people who have never driven in their lives?” ;) Just because some people make a habit of speeding does not mean speed limits are not good. Same with tournaments. I personally find any argument that just because cheating happens it is okay or should not be made a big deal of is pure silliness. And there is NOTHING in Tournament (or any other form of paintball play) that DEMANDS or even WARRENTS cheating.

And sorry, it is because of attitudes JUST like that, that has allowed it to get so bad. Thank God that this same type of thinking does not transfer to all areas in life….. :rolleyes:

ogre55

01-07-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by lonsch
why do i feel like im talking to people who have never played a tournament in their life

cphilip would it be better if i said the guy had toe jam for brains?

Just to assuage your concern I can tell you that at least one of the people who has posted on this thread against cheating plays tourmaments and another one occassionally writes for at least one paintball publication.

Ogre

Smoke

01-07-2003, 04:19 PM

That was nicely put Shartly. Look, I'm a rec player, a tourney player, and a ref (THIS close to being certified), and I can say first hand that cheating, in ANY form, is bad. Just because someone else cheats, dosen't mean you should. You cannot justify wrong with wrong. It's like saying that just because OJ killed someone and got away with it, that means I can do it too. No I'm sorry, that's not how things work. Face it, cheating will ALWAYS be around, we're human!!! But if we discourage it as much as possible, and come down hard on cheaters (especially the ones in the spotlight), then we set an example of what will happen if one does cheat. Now, I personally don't like to make excuses for cheaters, what they did is wrong, and they should pay for it. What they did damaged the credibility of paintball a little bit more, ya know, giving the anti-paintball people one more reason to dislike the sport, seeing cheating dismissed without consequence. So, the bottom line is, don't make excuses for this guy, what he did was down right low. I don't care how good he is, if Tom Kaye cheated, I would think the same. (I still think you're awesome Tom!!)

magman007

01-07-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by lonsch
why do i feel like im talking to people who have never played a tournament in their life

Hmm, i dont know, as i have stated 2 times already, i am a tourny player....

I have made my statements and i will stand by them. NO cheater will be better than i am, morally, ethically, and skillfully.

LEt me put it this way. Habits are hard to get rid of. THese players have lost their skil in favor for cheating. they get lazy, its easier to cheat, than it is to play with skill. it is easier to let your body play a little looser and get the occasional hit and wipe it, then it is to play tight, and not get hit. Do you understand?

blnk, i dont give a damn if you play at badlands, i just dont care where you play, its sad that you support cheating, and im suspecting you yourself are a cheater. IF we ever meet, i will keep pelting you until your marker goes in the air, and i hear the words hit. I always do that, also, i will put 3 in the gogle, id like to see you wipe that.

Cheating isnt cool. its like... going up the slide in chutes and ladders.......

just STOP IT. Stop doing it. so what if you get hit? that tells you your playing. It also tells you you need to work on some things, so you dont get hit! Suck it up blnk, your argument is worthless here, as is yours lonsch

GIVE IT UP, OR GET OUT OF OUR SPORT

i spend alot of time and money in this sport, and i dont want to see jerks like you squandering my sport that i try so hard to keep looking good, yes, i put my imput in, and i help make this sport what it is.

EDIT: Ogre, i will soon be one of those people, look for my article in crossfire magazine soon

blnk162

01-07-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Tyger

I'll have t use that next time I get pulled over for speeding.

"Officer, I may not be justified driving at 50 MPH through a school zone, but there's a reason for it!"

Look, so-called pro players (Who aren't professional, they have to pay for the privlidge of being called that, they're not being paid) have only pressure they put on themselves. As far as I'm concerned, all they're doing is justifying in their own mind why they do what they do. And it reflects badly on paintball as a whole when the 'best of the best' have to cheat to win.

-Tyger

Tell me one pro player that pays a dime out of their pocket for anything .....

Smoke

01-07-2003, 04:53 PM

So what? What does that have to do with anything?? We're talking about credibility here, not what people have to pay to play! You're bringing up trivial points because you know your argument holds no water!

Danz

01-07-2003, 07:12 PM

For years my rec ball-team has had a standing policy of “no-competitions” simply because for us, it took much of the fun out of it. We went back on that policy at AO Day II. Beside the fact that we did not do very well (about 10th place out of 21 teams), the day was fantastic right up to the point a member of another team cheated during a game against us. What killed me about it was that they had us beat. It was a three man competition, and they had already eliminated two of us within the first two minutes. Our captain makes a suicide move, eliminating their man at the 50 and is sprinting towards the next man. Then “THAWACK”. He’s hit from behind by the man at the 50 he shot dead in the goggles a few seconds before after running past him. This was not an exchange of fire during a bunkering, but a clean elimination from a distance. Now this was in the rookie division, of a some what unimportant local tourney.

Why cheat? Even an upset win by my team would not have effected them getting to the finals. I do think that many tourney players play straight up ball, but its hard to be open minded when you see cheating at the pro level and at even the lowest levels of competition.

Danz

lonsch

01-07-2003, 11:52 PM

OK no one seems to understand me.

I am not saying that cheating is cool or right. My point is that in all my experiences in tournament paintball cheating was happening all the time. I was just like you guys. I hated people who cheated. you know where that got me...no where. Everyone says they hate cheaters but everyone I came to know thru tourneys cheated. it is just something I have learned to deal with.

Now I never said I do it but everyone thinks I do without knowing.

Also what is your definition of cheating. Im sure mine are very different from yours.

Smoke

01-08-2003, 12:09 AM

Alright, everybody at some point has cheated. We're human. We've all wiped a hit we thought should not have happened, we've all done bad things here and there, but most of us have grown up. Not every tourney team cheats. (AGD Pride, you guys are my heros) I also blame some of the cheating problem on the refs. Some refs are ignorant, some have so much to watch, they simply can't catch everything. Obviously, more refs are needed. If that isn't the case, we need to realize that we're not little kids fighting over who won a board game. Oh, and my definition of cheating is A) doing something that others are not to give yourself an unfair advantage, or B) breaking a set of rules as to further your chances of winning, or C) acting childish. ENOUGH SAID .

magman007

01-08-2003, 12:19 AM

ive never wiped a hit, played on with a hit that i knew of etc, nor will i ever.

cheating is doing something to earn your self an un fair advantage, that is frowned uppon by others. playing in the grey area is not the grey area, it is cheating and that is that

Smoke

01-08-2003, 12:22 AM

Well, then props to you!! You've done what most cannot; resist the urge to at some point "bend" the rules in your favor. I'm NOT proud of it, but I've cheated a few times in the past. After a couple of, oh how shall I say this,"periods of enlightenment", I've decieded, cheating has no place in my game.

Troy

01-08-2003, 01:31 AM

I'll start with Salmi. He dosn't seem to be voilating any rules right now. He wasn't banned from paintball, he was banned from playing. That being said I wouldn't have him as my teams coach. I'm sure there were other routes that Snowjob or whatever his teams name is could have taken. I can't imagine they will be picking up big sponsorship deals because of this.

As for cheating in tournaments...
Rooster's opening comment that PRO paintball is a cheaters game is nonsense. If it was true Avalanche with Salem's help would have won cup, and every other NPPL last year ( I'm not trying to label all of Lanche as cheaters). I guess it all depends on what you consider cheating. Every time a rule is broken isn't blatent cheating, like in Salems case.

Rules may be broken in alot of games and that is why there are penalties and refs to inforce the rules. If a player is shot in the leg in the beginning of a slide and the hit is removed the player shouldn't be banned from the game, crap happens get over it (The player or ref should still check the area when in the saftey of a bunker). The point is that when any sport is played at a high level rules are broken, and to label all players of that sport as cheaters is ludicrous. There is holding in the vast majority of NFL plays. Does that mean every player in the NFL is a cheater, and the Super Bowl should no longer be on TV? The NBA rewards its star players by allowing them to break certain rules, yet I still respect their abilities on the court (off the court is a subject for a different thead).

I have been playing NPPL tournaments since 1998 and have had one 1-for-1 pulled on me. I got shot in the shoulder on the run out. I looked, didn't see anything and kept playing. I guess, since I missed the hit I and for that matter all tourny players are cheaters. I'm not saying all paintball players are saints on the field either. There are the Salems and others out there. Just like MLB has its steroid users. They give the sport a black eye, but to label all players as cheaters goes too far. For the most part the team that wins the tournament is the one that played the best. I have never believed that I lost a tounament because I was cheated, and I'am sick of hearing tourny players complain that they didn't win because of a bad call. Some of them need to stop crying and look at things that they could have improved on to win.

Tyger

01-08-2003, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by blnk162

Tell me one pro player that pays a dime out of their pocket for anything .....

First show me a paintball player that gets paid to play paintball, then I'll show you a professional paintball player.

There's no entry fee to play in the Super Bowl, you know.

-Tyger

cphilip

01-08-2003, 08:35 AM

Troy,

Excellent points to bring up for certain. I think no one here is drawing a comparison between accidental "playing on" and what was done at WC by Mr. Salem.

I can see where someone may judge what you describe as and Obvious Hit and yet you as a player not be able to verify the hit yourself. But in the heat of the game you play on BUT there was an oportunity to ask for a paintcheck. So the rule is there to call for one. Using your situation as an example if I was refing I would probably have made the same call that was made on you. However accidentaly doing it is like accidentaly hitting a player too late out of bounds. Like any other situation in Football were a rule is broken or something in the heat of the game. And then penalties are asessed to even back up the game to atone for that. In your case and example a 1 for 1 does that.

However when a person who is not even in the game affects the game by going up into the woods and shoots players out for his teams sake and cannot even be eliminated or penalized for it to even out the game. by the rules, it goes to a completely different level. One in which the games rules cannot even the playing field out. I think that is the Horror of the situation. And someone who knows the game like he did and had to make a concerted deliberate effort to do it and conceal it speaks volumes to his character. Or complete lack thereof. And that will never change. Its inate in his morality. And for that reason I would never associate with him or have him as a team mate. Its way beyond what happens in the heat of the game and breaks the rules.

But as to your points about what happens in a game, I agree those things happen and sometimes not by choice. And they are delt with in the rules for a good reason. Nothing he did is delt with in the rules. And I do not feel has been delt with severly enough to prevent it in the future. If he is allowed to represent and continue to profit from paintball so soon after that it speaks volumes to the next generation that they can do something so henous and eventualy they will not suffer long for it. That is not right.

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-08-2003, 09:25 AM

I'm not going to pretend like I am a major pro player or even that I'm a tournament veteran. But it's called cheating because it's supposed to be wrong. I don't care where you've played before or what team's you have been on, by cheating you are proving that you know you haven't got the ability to win in an honest and straightup competition.

I'm not talking hits you're not sure of. I'm talking direct goggle shots, continuing to play when you know you were out ages ago, and the most common one of seeing you've been hit and wiping before a ref sees it. And the funny thing is the same people who do this then complain to the ref about other calls against them. Jeremy's incident makes all of those look like nothing and how he's back at all is disgusting and embarrassing to the sport, but if this sports going to grow something has to be done about cheating.

If you steal and think you're justified to, fine, but if you get caught don't say you didn't know or try to justify it. What you did was wrong and an example needs to be set by you being fully punished. It's the same way in paintball and the only way things can be fixed.

Some pros cheat to balance the scales, which still isn't right, but if you have to blatantly cheat just to play in the big tourneys and make money, then show some respect to the game and practice your skills rather than your cheating methods and come back when you're not just some loser looking for an unfair edge. And if you can't hack it without cheating, be a man and let someone else have the spotlight. It should be an honor that you get paid to play, only the top 2% probably do. I may not play on your level, but I never wipe or cheat in any of these ways, and whether I win the game or am out within 30 seconds, I walk off that field knowing I played my best, respected the game, and didn't sell myself out which is what every cheater is doing.

dre1919

01-08-2003, 10:13 AM

What I thought was truly lame about Salm's article was the fact he doesn't really say anything. It's like a lot of smoke and mirrors and in the end you're really left with nothing. Sure, he apologizes to his teammates, friends, family, etc., but his answer to why he did the act was short and vague. He was just like "I don't know what I was thinking. I'd love to go back and do it all again." and the like. I'm sorry, here's a guy at the biggest event in our sport, being watched by all kinds of people, and he pulls a stunt like this? Leaving the match, going and getting equipment to sniper with as well as black clothing, and then stalking off into the woods and shooting people from the sidelines is not a quick, snap decision. That took time and planning, which meant that while he "didn't know what he was thinking" he certainly knew what he was doing.

Think about how much time he had to use to accomplish his goal. Twenty minutes, thirty, forty? At any time during that it had to occur to him several times "This is wrong. It's wrong for my team, this sport, my honor as a person, etc." The fact he went on and carried out his actions tells you all you need to know about Mr. Salm. Should he be banned for life? I don't think so just because all people are human and deserve a second chance, but he shouldn't be back in the sport (especially coaching a younger team) in three months. That shows there is no penalty for doing even the most absurd infraction, which will certainly lead to greater instances of more outrageous cheating. Why not? If Salm can do it, so can you! :rolleyes:

I've been playing for ten years now, and when I started I was a kid. I'll admit, I'm just as human as the next guy and my first couple trips out I wiped once or twice because of that immaturity and inexperience. I didn't realize how important it was not to do that, for me the player and the others playing with me, and for the good of the sport. We were teenagers playing in the woods with Splatmasters but even then there was a dignity issue I learned very quickly. When playing this sport, as in all phases of life, one should conduct himself as a gentleman and cheating has no part in that way of life. Right then and there I realized that cheating had no part in my life and so I never did it again (nor will). I have been a tournament player for quite a while now and my team and I have undoubtedly encountered some cheating from time to time. But, instead of stooping to that level, we believe in taking the higher road to help better the sport in the hopes others will follow. I believe Mr. Salm really doesn't care about what he did, but is instead saying what he has to say to get back into the sport. I would like to forgive him and welcome him back, but only time will tell if he is truly reformed or not.

hitech

01-08-2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Troy
I have never believed that I lost a tounament because I was cheated...

I have. However, your points are well taken. In general I agree with you. I still think that there is too much cheating (mostly playing on after a hit and wiping), but I generally agree with you. :D

TheBigRaguPB4L

01-08-2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Troy

Rules may be broken in alot of games and that is why there are penalties and refs to inforce the rules.

That would be all well and good but how often do you see this happening. Granted I've never actually seen a pro game in person, but Through all the traumahead videos and clips online, i've seen quite a few games. Never have i seen a 3 for 1 or 2 for 1 ect. I have seen plenty of wiping and playing on though.

blnk162

01-08-2003, 02:50 PM

blnk162

01-08-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by automagfreek
So what? What does that have to do with anything?? We're talking about credibility here, not what people have to pay to play! You're bringing up trivial points because you know your argument holds no water!

What are you talking about?

He was talking about money and also I dont really have an argument...your all getting your panties in a bunch over a player who is talented and either 1.)messed up and went postal(not literal for all of you guys who cant take a joke)
or 2.)Was put up to it and the conspiracy is deeper than we realize.

I say Salm is a good player, he messed up, oh well.

beefstew

01-08-2003, 04:15 PM

tourny players cheat. In all circuts and at all levels. rec players also cheat (i dont see why) but they do. the only team i NEVER saw wipe (intentionally anyway) on teh circut was legion. they are the cleanest playing team i have ever seen. To do that well and not cheat puts them above the rest IMHO. but other than that, tourny players DO and will continue to cheat. salm just didnt do a very good job of it. that doesnt mean he has "less morals" than the rest of them.

shartley

01-08-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by blnk162
He was talking about money and also I dont really have an argument...your all getting your panties in a bunch over a player who is talented and either 1.)messed up and went postal(not literal for all of you guys who cant take a joke)
or 2.)Was put up to it and the conspiracy is deeper than we realize.
Okay… how about showing just a little maturity? Not all of us are “getting our panties in a bunch”, we are stating our opinion on CHEATING, and what Salm DID. Can’t deal with it? Maybe you need to do some self reflection….

Originally posted by beefstew
tourny players cheat. In all circuts and at all levels. rec players also cheat (i dont see why) but they do. the only team i NEVER saw wipe (intentionally anyway) on teh circut was legion. they are the cleanest playing team i have ever seen. To do that well and not cheat puts them above the rest IMHO. but other than that, tourny players DO and will continue to cheat. salm just didnt do a very good job of it. that doesnt mean he has "less morals" than the rest of them.
This is a pretty general statement and I am sure you can back it up with FACTS?

Also I WOULD say that Salm’s actions showed that he has FAR less morals than someone who might even intentionally wipe. Neither is right, and neither has very high morals or honor, but to fail to see that sniping opposing team members from OFF THE FIELD is not even close to being the same as some of the other things players may do to gain an unfair advantage by less flagrant cheating. :rolleyes:

cphilip

01-08-2003, 04:34 PM

Beefstew, I get the impression you have no idea what he did. And that you didn't even read the thread. But you got an opinion anyway...

Sheesh...:rolleyes:

magman007

01-08-2003, 04:52 PM

beef stew, your sig is also way to huge, and doesnt folow the sig rules, resize please

A.T.S

01-08-2003, 04:53 PM

The guy on the left works at a proshop near my house. He is an ok guy but does not like mags.

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=587475

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-08-2003, 05:16 PM

If we ever want the game to get out of the woods and appear regularly on ESPN and gain more popularity then cheating must be minimized and not an "unofficial tactic" as it basically has become. That is why all the magazines and companies get so aggravated about it, and why Jeremy's very immature, immoral, and pathetic display has got so much attention. Things so out in the open like this set the sport back.

If the typical tournament paintball player now is the kind of person who acts like little children, whine when they don't get their way, and do everything they can to get ahead even though it's robbing others who play fair, then the game's growth is doomed. Anyone who thinks it's only wrong if you get caught will never get my respect no matter how "good" they are, if they made the professional ranks, or what sponsors they have. They are dirtbags and are the reason the game is being held back. If you really think you are that great, try winning without cheating and taking any losses with maturity and respect for the game and other players. We all know you rely so much on cheating your rank would drop, and you're too egotistical to let that happen.

A seven year-old throwing a tantrum or not knowing right from wrong is acceptable. A 18+ year-old doing it is sad.

I respect any person or team, no matter what level they are at, who does not flagrantly cheat or even cheat "because everyone else does it." That is the lamest, immature excuse I have heard. It's a competition. Earn the title of 1st place because you love the game, not because it's your profit. The penalties for cheating should be far stricter, games should be taped and viewed for misconduct with fines and possible stripping of titles for infringements, and hopefully a new "honor league" will form where those few teams that play for the love of the game and respect the rules and others can compete. I'd rather place 4th and know I earned it honestly than win and everyone know I didn't have the skills to do it without cheating.

And to conclude: Recballers cheating? I catch someone wiping on the other side of the field, you better hope you can back it up with skills because if I see it I will be running towards you with the full intent of bunkering you until you're crying for your mommie. Don't disrespect the game. Grow up or get out.

SlartyBartFast

01-08-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Tyger

First show me a paintball player that gets paid to play paintball, then I'll show you a professional paintball player.

There's no entry fee to play in the Super Bowl, you know.

-Tyger

Nice try Tyger. ;)

The only problem is that by your definition there is no such thing as a Pro golfer. Not 100% sure about entry fees, but golfers only get money from the game if they win.

I'm sure there are other sports out there that are similar.

Similarily, Olympic standards receiving any money or sponsorship or getting paid for a performance immediately qualifies you as Pro. Under those rules, anybody who has ever received so much as a barrel plug to represent a manufacturer or store could be labeled pro.

Little silly to argue semantics, isn't it?:cool:

Tyger

01-08-2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

They get paid in product and bonuses...

Can you "LIVE" on product and bonuses? I know a benchwarmer in the NFL can live cofortably on salary.

I have never seen a paintball player alive pulling salary.

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

Nice try Tyger. ;)

The only problem is that by your definition there is no such thing as a Pro golfer. Not 100% sure about entry fees, but golfers only get money from the game if they win.

I'm sure there are other sports out there that are similar.

Similarily, Olympic standards receiving any money or sponsorship or getting paid for a performance immediately qualifies you as Pro. Under those rules, anybody who has ever received so much as a barrel plug to represent a manufacturer or store could be labeled pro.

Aha! I can nail ya here.

"Pro" athletes were not supposed to be in the olympics. The rules have changed lately. Which is why the USA basketball team is all the NBA guys.

As for golfers, yes, you pay to get in an open, but "Pro golfers" like Tiger Woods can earn enough money playing golf alone that he can live on it. Hence, he's a profesisonal golfer. There are hundreds fo golfers who are unsponsored, but they make enough money on golfing to get by. So, they're full time pro golfers.

Nobody makes enough money on paintball to make a living at it. Shop owners and field owners, yeah, ok, but not just players.

-Tyger

hitech

01-08-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Tyger
Nobody makes enough money on paintball to make a living at it. Shop owners and field owners, yeah, ok, but not just players.

You don't have to make your entire living playing a sport to be a pro. There are other sports where some of the pros do not.

blnk162

01-08-2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by beefstew
tourny players cheat. In all circuts and at all levels. rec players also cheat (i dont see why) but they do. the only team i NEVER saw wipe (intentionally anyway) on teh circut was legion. they are the cleanest playing team i have ever seen. To do that well and not cheat puts them above the rest IMHO. but other than that, tourny players DO and will continue to cheat. salm just didnt do a very good job of it. that doesnt mean he has "less morals" than the rest of them.

Legion jus thas their camera man send them signals and such while hes on the field...

And shartley I stated my opinion, what do I need self reflection for?

Cheating will NEVER be 100 percent out of our sport....Im just sick of everyone knocking pros....

Marek

01-08-2003, 10:51 PM

I dont buy it. He has an epiphany, and wants to go back to what he loves. His roots. If it was so hard for him to play, then leave the sport. The ends don't justify the means.

As for cheating, this mentality that "everyone does it" is just a bunch of noise. I don't like cheating, in video games, paintball, classes, etc. and to have any kind of rationale for it is just stupid. I've played in only 2 tourneys, and plan on playing more this coming year. Honestly, I'd rather focus my time on learning to be a better player and leader, than learn strategies on how to win at all costs. I guess I am just to idealistic when it comes to Pro atheletes. I expect that they are doing what they do for entertainment purposes and for the love of the sport. Why else would you want to do what you do for a living? Its like being a teacher, but you hate kids? Dont teach. If he was really having pressures or a dislike for the sport, then quit.

It angers me greatly whenever ppl can't take responsibility for their actions. And to add fuel to the fire, ppl are trying to stick up for him and other pro players? He did wrong, to say that it is right because everyone else does it is wrong, and he should pay accordingly. Now, if what he paid was appropriate, well, thats another discussion.

Blazestorm

01-08-2003, 11:20 PM

As I believe he is a local to me (considering he first tried paintball here) I respect what he did, I often battle over playing tourneys because I feel I would lose the love for the sport I have now, although he made a poor decision I understand why he did it, and that's what matters. I'm sure you would get a kick out of shooting guys from the sideline... without them knowing you were there. It brought back the feeling when he first played paintball to him... and I think that's important.

He may cheat, he may do drugs, he may or may not be a good player, but you can not say stuff about someone you don't know. I know a guy who played on his first team washington reign and he says jeremy was a cool guy. The guy I'm talking about left when washington reign went pro :)

Smoke

01-08-2003, 11:38 PM

What are you talking about? He was taking money and also I don't really have an argument...your all getting your panties in a bunch over a player who is talented and either 1.)messed up and went postal(not literally for all of you guys that cant take a joke) or 2.)Was put up to it and the conspiracy is deeper than we realize.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Hmmmmm..... conspiracy theorists of paintball. Hmmm....
This discussion is about the morals of cheating, not weather or not you think he's good. IT'S ABOUT MORALS AND CREDIBILITY. Who cares if he's good or not, that dosen't justify his actions. I think you're missing the point, we're all talking apples and you're taking oranges. I could be a good guy, but if I burn down your house, would you still think I was a good guy? Would you pass it off as me going "postal"? Or that I was put up to it? Come on! Oh and by the way, being a professional is earned, never given. If you go against what made you a pro, then you are no longer a pro, it dosen't matter if you're in the spotlight or not. I know alot of rec players that are alot more professional then this clown.

DiRTyBuNNy

01-08-2003, 11:59 PM

I think Jeremy Salm is pathetic...there is no way you can justify to me that what he did which is to just do our sport a disservice. As for people that say we need to stop knocking pros, why don't you wakeup from that idealistic dream you live in and realize that these people are not professionals until they start acting like professionals and not like spoiled little brats. Getting paid does not make you a professional; it makes you someone who does not have to pay to play only with the respect of your peers and the public will you truly become a professional.

Smoke

01-09-2003, 12:11 AM

That's right!! That exactly what I was getting at. Well DirtyBunny, looks like we're on the same page.....

Tyger

01-09-2003, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by blnk162

Cheating will NEVER be 100 percent out of our sport....Im just sick of everyone knocking pros....

And as long as you believe that, that will indeed be the case.

And if you're going to call yourslef the best, and compete to be the best, don't have the audacity to be shocked when you get "knocked around". ESPN does it all the time, get used to it. If you're gonna make yourslef out to be the best, expect the potshots. You can't be immune, not in a media driven culture.

-Tyger

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 08:46 AM

Ok, we have alot of allegations flying around. Who knows FOR SURE how certain pro teams are cheating? Whoever made that remark about Legion using their cameraman, do you have proof or did they ever get officially caught for it? By all means give something to back your remarks up. Anyone else have any stories of pro players flagrantly cheating (and I mean the events that stick out) please post them, especially if they were caught or punished for it by the NPPL, sponsors, or anyone else.

Professional is a technicality. Profession as in makes income from it. Salm is a professional, true, he's also a scumbag and no matter how good he is, he's an embarrassment to the game and should not have any part in it as a professional now. What he did pushed cheating to a whole new level which is why it should be taken so seriously. If officials and other players use the idiotic mentality and think "he did it, so why shouldn't we. it's not fair. we deserve to win" or "he didn't mean it, we'll let him get away with it this time" this type of behavior will become standard just as wiping has already. They need to set an example with this, and it's not like he did something unintentional or spur of the moment. He planned it out and I don't think he really shows any remorse. He is only giving weak and immature justification for how he acted. He should never play in the NPPL or any other league that wants to have credibility again. And any other Pro or tournament played who chooses to use these tactics regularly and without remorse should be too.

manike

01-09-2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by blnk162
Legion jus thas their camera man send them signals and such while hes on the field...

LMAO. That's absolute rubbish and was a rumour started by a paranoid American team when they kept getting beat.

Fact is they are a phenomenal team. They aren't perfect and have had questionable 'moments' but they are one of the best 'teams' out there in many respects.

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 09:01 AM

Are Legion from Britain like you? Just a side note I'm curious about, I'm British but live in Boston so I keep track of teams in both areas.

By best do you mean record or by their respect for the game and lack of cheating? And I take "questionable moments" means you know they wipe if they really need to in order to win, which is still bad. A definite step up, though, from Avalanche and other teams that make cheating part of their gameplan and build such a bad reputation. How about how they behave off the field? Do they start fights, flip off spectators, act like they're better than everybody? These are the kind of off-field behaviors that need to be trimmed as well. Sure, all sports have people that do this, but paintball seems to have a strong concentration of hotheaded, immature thugs who feel they should never lose, that no one should cheat against them even if they're cheating themselves, and think they should get up in other people's faces and start fights just to act tough. These players make us look bad, prevent mainstream interest in our sport, and are the people who should be removed from the Pro leagues. Recballers are the future and the major source of pro funding and if you act like jerks to them and "Sandbag" in lower level tournaments you're killing the game's future.

manike

01-09-2003, 09:22 AM

DO NOT READ THINGS INTO MY POSTS or put words into my mouth that I didn't say please! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I've never accused them of wiping and would not, I've never see nor heard of them doing that.

If by Legion he means Russian Legion then they are from Moscow in Russia ;)

They are very nice and respectful and polite people on and off the field. I've only ever ONCE in all the time watching and photographing them seen an RL player get angry. And all he did was kick a pot when he thought he had been unfairly called out for kneeling on a ball.

They are the best because of their game play, skills and tactics and endeavours as a team on and off the field. They are the cleanest pro team I've ever seen. Watching them play is so fantastically technical that it's a testament to athletes.

Questionable moments means occasions when they have been deemed to have gone outside the rules by the judges, and they got penalised for it.

I don't think there is any player in the game of paintball that hasn't at some point 'played on' knowingly or not or broken the rules at some point. I don't believe there are many pro teams that are perfeclty squeakly clean.

manike

Evil Bob

01-09-2003, 11:44 AM

Allegations against Russian Legion have gone so far as to suggest that they have subdermal implants for communicating with each other. There is alot of crap going around to explain why they are so successful, and it's all just that... crap. The plain truth is they train hard, and it clearly shows.

Russian Legion simply do not cheat. Any member of RL that gets caught cheating is off the team, no questions asked. The team as a whole holds cheating in complete contempt and feel they don't need to lower their standards to be successful, they can do better with skill and hard training.

How many other paintball teams out there trains with a coach 3 to 5 times a week? None! I have seen them train, I have played against them, these guys are a genuine class act, and above all they are very honorable.

How many pro players out there do you think would risk getting shot in a top tournament to leave the safty of their bunker at the back end of their field to run up and tell one of their front players that they've been hit by the other team? Only Russian Legion, I have never seen anyone else ever do this, everyone else just plays on. 99.9% of the time they call themselves out when they are hit. How many pro players do you know that will do that? How many will keep shooting after being hit until the ref/marshall calls them out?

-Evil Bob

cledford

01-09-2003, 11:54 AM

The Russian Legion is an awesome team! If I could find a team that took practice, training and drilling to such a level I would be in heaven.

Here is a good article (link originally posted by RobAGD) on the Legion. You have to read about halfway down to get to the part about them.

http://www.p8ntballer.com/classroomcontents/ustyle.shtml

-Calvin

blnk162

01-09-2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by manike

LMAO. That's absolute rubbish and was a rumour started by a paranoid American team when they kept getting beat.

Fact is they are a phenomenal team. They aren't perfect and have had questionable 'moments' but they are one of the best 'teams' out there in many respects.

Actually it happened at two different tournaments and against two different teams..

OK, about morals and credibility, some people dont have morals or are differant than yours, that DOESNT mean they are a bad person, I mean if you dont cheat good for you, but id like to see a show of posts of who has ever played a national event in this forum before I finish my argument.

cphilip

01-09-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by blnk162
...before I finish my argument.

Your argument has been finished for quite some time...:rolleyes:

manike

01-09-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Evil Bob
Russian Legion simply do not cheat. Any member of RL that gets caught cheating is off the team, no questions asked.

I don't believe that is completely true. I think you have been reading too much of PGI and Robbo's writings :)

But the thing about a back player calling a judge to check one his front players is true... I beleive I may have written the article where you read that and I saw it myself. I've seen many stunningly good acts from the RL, and only a few ever that were as I said 'questionable'.

There have been instances where they have been penalised for breaking the rules (is that or is it not cheating?) and rightly in my opinion. But at the level the play sometimes this occurs and certainly doesn't detract in my book from the cleanest and best technical team in Pro paintball. They suck it up and continue to play. In Portugal they made it into the finals with only 5 men in a seven man tournament when two of their guns (and thus players) were disallowed from use for getting more than 'one shot per pull' under the Millennium rules.

Blink, yeah and it was at Millennium events for which I write reports on Warpig. And everytime it comes up, anyone with any sense laughs their behind off at the accusations as being the bitter spite filled dreams of the losers... If it were true do you think they would still be yet to actually win a Millennium event? (so often second.... :( )

RL are the best team in Euro Paintball, and in many ways their excellent conduct in paintball makes them the best team in Pro paintball. In my opinion :D

manike

ogre55

01-09-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by blnk162
Actually it happened at two different tournaments and against two different teams.

When. Where? Against whom? I know I am waiting with baited breath for the answer.

OK, about morals and credibility, some people dont have morals or are differant than yours, that DOESNT mean they are a bad person.

Different moral code: As long as said code does not involve stealing/cheating/killing without provocation etc., I guess they are not. But since the people you speak of, apparently have a moral code that states that cheating is OK, then you are DEAD WRONG.

Lack of a moral code: People who have no moral code are not neccessarily bad? :confused: Do you know where most people without a moral code live? The answer is prison. They are called sociapaths and they are bad in every sense of the word.

"Better to stay quiet and be thought of an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt"

Abraham Lincoln

It's a great qoute isn't it. Some people can really learn from it.

Ogre

Marchborne

01-09-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

OK, about morals and credibility, some people dont have morals or are differant than yours, that DOESNT mean they are a bad person, I mean if you dont cheat good for you, but id like to see a show of posts of who has ever played a national event in this forum before I finish my argument.

MORAL: "1a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior: ethical ... e: capable of right or wrong action." Webster's 10th Collegiate Dictionary, pg. 756 (1996).

Yes, not having morals DOES make you a bad person. If you don't know right from wrong, and you cheat, then you lose credibility. Answer this: what does having played a national event have to do with credibility when discussing the morals involved in cheating? :confused:

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 12:48 PM

Before I respond to what I was going to, Blink162 you proved one of my points by how you ended your last post: you think because you played at Badlands and in many tourneys that you're better than us and more credible. You keep bringing up that point trying to say because some of us aren't veterans to tournament play our opinions aren't as important. This game is not all about tournaments! It started as a survival pasttime and has evolved into many forms, including speedball, which happens to be the one that could lead to more exposure for the sport as it is classified as an extreme sport. Giving the impression the game is owned by the top and more experienced players is exactly the stereotypical attitude on and off the field that damages are game and should be removed. Setting effective and policed rules for the game and behavior by players and enforcing them fully will start removing the bad impression spectators and rookies may get. We were all rookies once, and we need the new wave of newbies to make this game grow, and right now we're discouraging tons of them by immature behavior, arrogant attitudes, and cheating. If you found Pedro Ramirez pitching against your college baseball team you'd pitch a fit, that's the same as Sandbagging. If you were on the other team playing that kid who lied about his age, you'd complain. It's the same thing here and we have to be strict about it and set an example.

I am not talking about why cheating specifically happens on the pro level and how it's basically become expected, I am talking about how cheating at any level discourages people from investing more time and money into playing paintball, discourages amateur tournament players and recballers from working on their teams to push up the ranks and signing up for more tournaments, as well as discourages new players from playing which means our sport will remain expensive due to limited participants. Having honest, hardworking players choosing not to play tournaments because arrogant, cheating people in it only for themselves and to feel like big men and people not going back to a rec field cause the regulars with $1500 guns bossed them around and kept bunkering them are the biggest poisons to the game right now, and people doing this should reform or be removed, no matter how many tournaments they have played. It's the only way to improve the public's impression of the game. If Russian Legion are just as it has been described, I have alot of respect for them and wish them great success.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by cphilip

Your argument has been finished for quite some time...:rolleyes:

Youve obviously never played a national tournament then...

With higher competition comes different levels of cheating and rule bending in any sport.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Before I respond to what I was going to, Blink162 you proved one of my points by how you ended your last post: you think because you played at Badlands and in many tourneys that you're better than us and more credible. You keep bringing up that point trying to say because some of us aren't veterans to tournament play our opinions aren't as important. This game is not all about tournaments! It started as a survival pasttime and has evolved into many forms, including speedball, which happens to be the one that could lead to more exposure for the sport as it is classified as an extreme sport. Giving the impression the game is owned by the top and more experienced players is exactly the stereotypical attitude on and off the field that damages are game and should be removed. Setting effective and policed rules for the game and behavior by players and enforcing them fully will start removing the bad impression spectators and rookies may get. We were all rookies once, and we need the new wave of newbies to make this game grow, and right now we're discouraging tons of them by immature behavior, arrogant attitudes, and cheating. If you found Pedro Ramirez pitching against your college baseball team you'd pitch a fit, that's the same as Sandbagging. If you were on the other team playing that kid who lied about his age, you'd complain. It's the same thing here and we have to be strict about it and set an example.

I am not talking about why cheating specifically happens on the pro level and how it's basically become expected, I am talking about how cheating at any level discourages people from investing more time and money into playing paintball, discourages amateur tournament players and recballers from working on their teams to push up the ranks and signing up for more tournaments, as well as discourages new players from playing which means our sport will remain expensive due to limited participants. Having honest, hardworking players choosing not to play tournaments because arrogant, cheating people in it only for themselves and to feel like big men and people not going back to a rec field cause the regulars with $1500 guns bossed them around and kept bunkering them are the biggest poisons to the game right now, and people doing this should reform or be removed, no matter how many tournaments they have played. It's the only way to improve the public's impression of the game. If Russian Legion are just as it has been described, I have alot of respect for them and wish them great success.

I said playing at badlandz makes me desensitized, not better than you.

And about the whole survival pastime bit, yeah thats where it started but I actually think that the whole camo and survival in the woods and militirastic view that many have is BAD for the sport and too war like.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Marchborne

MORAL: "1a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior: ethical ... e: capable of right or wrong action." Webster's 10th Collegiate Dictionary, pg. 756 (1996).

Yes, not having morals DOES make you a bad person. If you don't know right from wrong, and you cheat, then you lose credibility. Answer this: what does having played a national event have to do with credibility when discussing the morals involved in cheating? :confused:

You guys will NEVER understand that sometimes you HAVE to cheat in this sport on a national level unless you have played it, and its really sad to say but its true

They money, the business, and all of your FAVORITE products MAY(not a proven fact, a may for all of you literal buffs out there) not have been around if a sponsored team did not cheat in a tournament.

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 01:52 PM

That's the whole point! It's gotten so bad most people are confident that in order to do reasonably well in a tournament regardless of skill that you have to cheat. It starts with a few people using cheating to get a competitive edge because they are egotistical, selfish, self-righteous jerks who feel they should win no matter what. They're doing it not because others are but because they have no ethics or respect for anyone besides themselves. Then you have others who are too insecure to accept loss and feel it's right for them to go ahead and start cheating too since this first bunch do. This leaves the rest who have signed up for a tournament because they actually love the sport and fair competition and choose not to cheat and get crushed simply because they are respecting the game and showing respect to the others playing. "Let the best man win," ever heard of that? It's the ethic behind all competitions and by succumbing to the pressure of others cheating you are just being part of the problem that is keeping paintball down and no better than they are. If you can't hack it without cheating, accept it's not your career. Most are in that situation and you are no better than us, we all have a right to win but only when we earn it. When cheating is reduced, tournament entry will grow and so will the sport's popularity and exposure.

To make an analogy: If you have a girlfriend, if you cheat on her and then when she finds out tell her she shouldn't be so mad because "everyone does it and cheating is ok in this case." how do you think she will react? Believe that? Good luck keeping that one going. BTW, do not actually do this cause if you do you're a moron. Paintball will be a game until the cheating is not standard, then it can be considered a true sport. You're not fooling anyone who has played more than once with your justifications for your actions and those of crooked pros. Just accept that you're ruining the game by trying to be better than everyone else no matter what.

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 02:00 PM

And the point of products only being available POSSIBLY because people cheat is lame. It has nothing to do with that, it has to do with sponsorships of noted and successful players. When I see an Ad for a Dark Matrix with Jeremy Salm on it with the slogan "The Real Way To Win", then I'll agree, but that won't be happening anytime soon. It's good advertising and sponsorships with players who win tournaments. If cheating didn't happen the top teams playing would still have the sponsorships although they would obviously be different teams, business would be just the same but with different people as the cheaters would hopefully no longer be around, and more people would be participating in the sport, giving more customers to the companies and more profits to invest in new products. And I know you said "maybe." I say "not a chance."

shartley

01-09-2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

Youve obviously never played a national tournament then...

With higher competition comes different levels of cheating and rule bending in any sport.
Sorry pal, but you just showed your ignorance in yet another way. You don’t have to be a pro football player to know the rules and what happens on and off the field in pro football. Same with paintball…. Sorry.

Also, with higher level competition does NOT come with different levels of cheating and rule bending… in ANY SPORT. If that was true, then you would see this across the board in all sports (as you say) from football, baseball, soccer, basketball, and the list goes on and on. But the fact is that there is often MORE pressure put on lower level athletes than what is put on pro players in many cases.

And point in case, there is a greater need for winning at high school and college level than at Pro levels because the players want to advance to the next level of the sport. And unless you WIN, you can not do that. But once you reach Pro status, you have made it.

Originally posted by blnk162
And about the whole survival pastime bit, yeah thats where it started but I actually think that the whole camo and survival in the woods and militirastic view that many have is BAD for the sport and too war like.
And if you look, the backbone of the sport is that rec style of play… sorry pal. Think about it like this as well, when you involve a sport where people SHOOT at each other, no matter what format you play it in, it is militaristic. But you keep thinking what you want, you obviously have so much experience in the sport and know what is good and bad for it. ;)

Originally posted by blnk162
You guys will NEVER understand that sometimes you HAVE to cheat in this sport on a national level unless you have played it, and its really sad to say but its true

They money, the business, and all of your FAVORITE products MAY(not a proven fact, a may for all of you literal buffs out there) not have been around if a sponsored team did not cheat in a tournament.
Again… sorry pal. You do NOT have to cheat EVER. It is a choice. It is also something that is done by those who NEED the edge created by cheating…. That would indicate lack of skill, or less skill (or luck) than your opponent.

No one wins all the time. And it is how we win or lose that shows what kind of players and people we are. You have clearly show us all what type of player and person you are, and I thank you for that.

But I have one question for you… who are you? I mean really. Who are you? You keep talking like none of us know what we are talking about, and give the excuse that this is because we have not competed on a national level. Why do I not know you? What make you so knowledgeable in the national levels?

Know what I think? I think you are what your signature says you are…

I browse these forums to make you mad.
…. and nothing more…. ;)

Marchborne

01-09-2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

You guys will NEVER understand that sometimes you HAVE to cheat in this sport on a national level unless you have played it, and its really sad to say but its true

They money, the business, and all of your FAVORITE products MAY(not a proven fact, a may for all of you literal buffs out there) not have been around if a sponsored team did not cheat in a tournament.

HAVE to cheat? Geez, get a backbone. You say "it's sad to say," but if you really felt that way, why not do something? Set an example, don't cheat. I'm a realist. I understand pushing the rules, like putting your hands in front of your mask, hoping for a bounce, or maybe even playing on if you are not SURE you were hit. But, I also understand taking your punishment for what you do. You take an obvious hit, or you wipe, you did it deliberately.

Let me steal a page from Ogre's book, and quote Lincoln:
"No man is justified in doing evil on the grounds of expediency."

Oh, and regarding the promotion and development of products through cheating: is THAT why Avalanche/Warped Sportz sanctioned Salm? Is THAT why JT banned him from ever playing for a JT sponsored team again, and (I believe), FINED the WHOLE team? Hmmmm.

EDIT: Must've been typing this while you were writing, Shartley. Well said.

Marek

01-09-2003, 02:24 PM

blnk162, if you believe that you must cheat to win at a "Professional" event or National event, then your parents did not do a good job. That runs along the same lines as a Paintball store owner telling you that a longer barrel helps with distance and accuracy or saying that X gun is better than Y gun.

There is nothing more statisfying than winning something that you have worked hard for. I guess you have never felt that feeling before in your life, always cheating your way into things. But I guess you can live with yourself winning when it's not rightfully yours.

Smoke

01-09-2003, 02:27 PM

Blnk 162....WHO CARES?!?!?!?
YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT COMPLETLY!!
Everybody else seems to get the picture (and I commend them), but you don't!! I don't have to play in a national tourney to know that cheating is wrong! Come on!! You've seen the posts! We all are focused on the issue!!!! Like I said before, you are bringing up TRIVIAL points because you HAVE NO ARGUMENT!!! You've even said you have no argument, so what are you still doing here??

blnk162

01-09-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Marek
blnk162, if you believe that you must cheat to win at a "Professional" event or National event, then your parents did not do a good job. That runs along the same lines as a Paintball store owner telling you that a longer barrel helps with distance and accuracy or saying that X gun is better than Y gun.

There is nothing more statisfying than winning something that you have worked hard for. I guess you have never felt that feeling before in your life, always cheating your way into things. But I guess you can live with yourself winning when it's not rightfully yours.

**** you, how dare you bring my parents into this, dont talk **** about anything you dont know homo.

For the rest of you, once again I never said cheating was right, or justitified but there are reasons for it, I cant even argue with any of you because you guys are comparing yourself to pro paintball which is a falacy, it doesnt matter, feel good that you spent so much brain power arguing, when your all pro then see what its like and see if you never cheat.

Smoke

01-09-2003, 02:40 PM

All right, we will!! And ya know what, we're not gonna stoop to your level by personally insulting another member just because he attacked your credibility. How dare YOU, insulting him and everybody with this BS you are spewing. I consider myself a professional because I have the HEART, THE ATTITUDE, THE DESIRE, AND THE CONDUCT that makes players like me and everybody else stand out from people like you.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by automagfreek
All right, we will!! And ya know what, we're not gonna stoop to your level by personally insulting another member just because he attacked your credibility. How dare YOU, insulting him and everybody with this BS you are spewing. I consider myself a professional because I have the HEART, THE ATTITUDE, THE DESIRE, AND THE CONDUCT that makes players like me and everybody else stand out from people like you.

He was out of line talking about my parents, enough said.

Smoke

01-09-2003, 03:27 PM

Alright, hotshot, who are you and what team do you play for. If you're so BIGTIME, then you shouldn't be afraid.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by automagfreek
Alright, hotshot, who are you and what team do you play for. If you're so BIGTIME, then you shouldn't be afraid.

lol, pm me or im me, thats ot son

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 03:34 PM

Let me just point out something: Marek made a comment that included your parents in it, not specifically insulting them but just saying that you were not raised to believe in fair and unfair, etc. I'm not bringing your parents back in this, so relax. It insulted you and if so he was wrong to do it. But you responded by calling him a "homo" and threating him basically. So because he stepped out of line just a little you had the right to step out of line entirely and threaten and insult him heavily according to your logic. Sounds like your paintball game there blink, it's OK because someone else did it first and you can't do anything about it either, right? You have the mentality that you have to be better no matter what. I don't care if you've played 10 years and got to the semifinals of the World Cup the last five years Blink, and no one else here does because if you did we know you cheated, knowing you couldn't do it legitimately. We are speaking about the game itself not tournaments, and the fact we all have a love for the sport and play the sport is grounds enough for our opinions to count just as much as you and the people you referred to at Badlands who can't hack it without cheating. It's people who think and act like you have just now that make us not strive to go to tournaments because behavior such as yours makes it unenjoyable. To the others who are posting and on my side, I would be honored to play with or against any of you because you love the game and play hard but fair and understand what it's all really about. Maybe some day tournaments will be respectable again when the cheaters all get thrown out and we'll be competing there instead of just at local fields where the game is still being played for fun.

Smoke

01-09-2003, 03:35 PM

Why??? like I said, if you're bigtime, then tell us who you are! For a big tourney player, you must not have alot of pride, or else you'd be more than willing to enlighten us.

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 03:56 PM

Let's hear about this team, prove to us all you're not some 12 year-old yapping about fake credentials and pretending you know what you're talking about. And don't go naming the first team you can think of, you played at Badlands whatever that place is (if its full of cheaters and jerks like you claim there is theres no chance I'm ever going to pay to play there) but its about time to back it up to everyone.
This whole talk isn't about skill level or team ranking, it's about honor and respect for the game and its rules. You keep saying the only way to stay in the pro level is to cheat, well if you can't hack it then pack it up Blink, because you just might not be as good as you are saying you are. This is all about bringing legitimacy to the game and removing jerkslike Salm and anyone else who embarrasses their team, the league, and the sport through their actions on or off the field. This behavior could result in every field needing more refs, imagine how much it'll cost then. Cheaters ruin the sport, ruining its chances of growing, and killing its future. All because they're egotistical and too immature to accept defeat. But it's ok, right, because someone else did it first? Riiiiight. Keep thinking that.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Let me just point out something: Marek made a comment that included your parents in it, not specifically insulting them but just saying that you were not raised to believe in fair and unfair, etc. I'm not bringing your parents back in this, so relax. It insulted you and if so he was wrong to do it. But you responded by calling him a "homo" and threating him basically. So because he stepped out of line just a little you had the right to step out of line entirely and threaten and insult him heavily according to your logic. Sounds like your paintball game there blink, it's OK because someone else did it first and you can't do anything about it either, right? You have the mentality that you have to be better no matter what. I don't care if you've played 10 years and got to the semifinals of the World Cup the last five years Blink, and no one else here does because if you did we know you cheated, knowing you couldn't do it legitimately. We are speaking about the game itself not tournaments, and the fact we all have a love for the sport and play the sport is grounds enough for our opinions to count just as much as you and the people you referred to at Badlands who can't hack it without cheating. It's people who think and act like you have just now that make us not strive to go to tournaments because behavior such as yours makes it unenjoyable. To the others who are posting and on my side, I would be honored to play with or against any of you because you love the game and play hard but fair and understand what it's all really about. Maybe some day tournaments will be respectable again when the cheaters all get thrown out and we'll be competing there instead of just at local fields where the game is still being played for fun.

1.) Ill admit I overacted to what he said about my parents

2.)I never said I cheated anywhere, I said I was desensitized since I see it often in tourneys and practice and I said playing at badlandz makes me hard not a cheater.

I have never said cheating was acceptable, Salm messed up, he shouldnt be setanced to death for it. A year out of the nppl is pretty harsh, and lets see if he DOES get picked up by another pro team in a year.

And for all of you that want to know what team I am on, I would hate to have you all run and complain to the sponsors and the business that backs us that the team is a bunch of jerks and cheaters(thats what you are all assuming about me)
It would be bad for the team and the sponsors, I dont need to prove anything, my friends on the board know who I play for thats good enough for me.

Marek

01-09-2003, 04:28 PM

**** you, how dare you bring my parents into this, dont talk **** about anything you dont know homo.

Cute. Am I suppose to be offended by you calling me names? Now, take my words however you want, but think about it. If you dont think cheating is wrong, and that an acceptable level of cheating is required to play at a Pro level, then how would my comment affect you? Or insult you for that matter? You should learn to control your temper and read things, before attacking. I never questioned your parent's integrity, yet you still are belligerent with me. I am commenting on how you think you are right and feel that something wrong (cehating, at any level) is right.

It does not matter, ppl have heard your voice and have learned to ignore it. You have no morals or ethics as stated for your want to win at all costs. I do not agree with your style of playing, and if ever on the field, I would not play with you. Cheating is one of the lowest forms on God's green earth, next to lying and murdering. Im sure that you will disagree, but then again, you have disagreed with everyone up til now. Have a great day.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Marek

Cute. Am I suppose to be offended by you calling me names? Now, take my words however you want, but think about it. If you dont think cheating is wrong, and that an acceptable level of cheating is required to play at a Pro level, then how would my comment affect you? Or insult you for that matter? You should learn to control your temper and read things, before attacking. I never questioned your parent's integrity, yet you still are belligerent with me. I am commenting on how you think you are right and feel that something wrong (cehating, at any level) is right.

It does not matter, ppl have heard your voice and have learned to ignore it. You have no morals or ethics as stated for your want to win at all costs. I do not agree with your style of playing, and if ever on the field, I would not play with you. Cheating is one of the lowest forms on God's green earth, next to lying and murdering. Im sure that you will disagree, but then again, you have disagreed with everyone up til now. Have a great day.

you STILL dont get it

I said cheating is bad but I can see why pros do it jeeze how many times do I have to reiterate it?

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 04:36 PM

Fair enough about not mentioning the team, I know I wouldn't do anything like you said but I wouldn't be surprised if someone would. And you said you play pro already, so we know what league you CLAIM to be in. Fully believe you? I'm not sure any of us here do anymore cause you're making alot of weak points. Cheating? I'm pretty convinced you do, no one who hates cheating and never participates in it would defend it being part of the sport as much as you have been. And I hope we never see Jeremy again, he shouldn't even be allowed to coach at pro level as he is now after the stunt he pulled if promoters, team owners, and sponsors want to see the sport cleaned up.

So you're anonymous since you're not giving any info to us, Give us your side on how you play. DO you cheat and does your team cheat at all? Be honest, what can we do about it? We don't know your name or your team's name. At least admit you do if you really do. If you cheat and are too ashamed to admit it, that makes it even worse cause you know you're wrong.

agdemagman69

01-09-2003, 04:54 PM

1.
ok, what i'm saying here is the EXACT truth, DO NOT FLAME ME

I know for a fact that blnk162 has played AMB, AMA, and I believe pro.

He lives in my town and i know him very well.

2.
I aggree with some (not all) of what hes saying, and he is right to have his own opinion, so back off a little jeez

blnk162

01-09-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Fair enough about not mentioning the team, I know I wouldn't do anything like you said but I wouldn't be surprised if someone would. And you said you play pro already, so we know what league you CLAIM to be in. Fully believe you? I'm not sure any of us here do anymore cause you're making alot of weak points. Cheating? I'm pretty convinced you do, no one who hates cheating and never participates in it would defend it being part of the sport as much as you have been. And I hope we never see Jeremy again, he shouldn't even be allowed to coach at pro level as he is now after the stunt he pulled if promoters, team owners, and sponsors want to see the sport cleaned up.

So you're anonymous since you're not giving any info to us, Give us your side on how you play. DO you cheat and does your team cheat at all? Be honest, what can we do about it? We don't know your name or your team's name. At least admit you do if you really do. If you cheat and are too ashamed to admit it, that makes it even worse cause you know you're wrong.

Where did I say I play pro?:cool::p

But the skinny of me playing...

I can honestly say I have never flat out windshield wiped a hit in a tournament with my hand, in practice I have just cuz its practice and doesnt matter to me and I want to keep playing.

My team does not have cheating methods that we use as a team even though some do like calling yelling codes for other players to call paint checks while someone wipes a hit.

Depending on situation I have played on while blowing tape lines or going up the middle this is not to say I do it all the time but I admit I have.

I do play the gray area to the fullest, i run with my hand in front of my mask, Iused to have mad stickers on my hopper and my marker, I once put rain x on gear for bounces, manipulate my bunker with barrel(altough thats a weak argument for playing gray), ummm what else...sometimes i dress up with goggleflauge and go into woods with a super lp marker and shoot people on the field...um that about raps it up....

Any more questions?

shartley

01-09-2003, 05:08 PM

You can come on AO, say what you want, not back anything up with facts, state you are something (ie. Pro player)….. then refuse to identify yourself….

I know……

You are BATMAN! :D

Word of advice, pal….. if what you say online might get you in trouble, and you don’t want folks knowing who you are…. first, DON’T POST IT… and second, don’t use your “status”, “title”, or whatever as “proof” of anything, or to back up an argument. I consider that hiding behind a screen name and pretty dishonest in itself.

You have proven your self to not only have questionable morals, but are more than a bit immature. I don’t know what team you play for “professionally” (which seems to be a very loose term now days), but from what I have seen thus far, I don’t know if I would consider them an asset to the sport (that is if they also reflect your way of thinking).

Back peddle all you want, but there is a record of what you have posted… and many of us have pretty good memories even if there wasn’t. ;) I wish you all the luck in your paintball career, and a happy and healthy life….. um, Batman, or John Doe, or whatever….

(Added: All the PRO references have been edited in the above posts. I will leave them in my post however since when I wrote it, that is where it stood and the impression that was given.)

(Added AGAIN: He never said HIMSELF he was a pro player... he just wrapped himself up in the garb and made it appear that he was far more than a local small team boy.)

Marek

01-09-2003, 05:11 PM

If hes going to be Batman, can I be Superman?

blnk162

01-09-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by shartley
You can come on AO, say what you want, not back anything up with facts, state you are something (ie. Pro player)….. then refuse to identify myself….

I know……

You are BATMAN! :D

Word of advice, pal….. if what you say online might get you in trouble, and you don’t want folks knowing who you are…. first, DON’T POST IT… and second, don’t use your “status”, “title”, or whatever as “proof” of anything, or to back up an argument. I consider that hiding behind a screen name and pretty dishonest in itself.

You have proven your self to not only have questionable morals, but are more than a bit immature. I don’t know what team you play for “professionally” (which seems to be a very loose term now days), but from what I have seen thus far, I don’t know if I would consider them an asset to the sport (that is if they also reflect your way of thinking).

Back peddle all you want, but there is a record of what you have posted… and many of us have pretty good memories even if there wasn’t. ;) I wish you all the luck in your paintball career, and a happy and healthy life….. um, Batman, or John Doe, or whatever….

Where did I use my status to backup anything?

You guys are pulling arguments out of nowhere....I think I answered quincy's question...

Once again where did I state I was pro earlier in the thread?

shartley

01-09-2003, 05:18 PM

Yeah… I am an idiot.

Sorry. I mistook all your references about everyone else not knowing what they were talking about because they haven’t been playing in national tournaments, and your team sponsorship, etc, as you being something more than a backwoods team member that happened to be able to afford tournament entry fees.

Again, sorry for the confusion. I forgot that you can pay your way into almost any level or tournament, and play at many levels short of PRO… it was a slight oversight on my part. It will not happen again. ;)

Again, I wish you all the best.. good luck, and happy health.

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-09-2003, 05:26 PM

You keep talking as if you are pro, saying you play at that level, and you mentioned you had sponsors. Well are you pro? Give a straight answer then.

OK, I take it the last one about goggleflauge while sniping is just a shot on Jeremy, and some of the others are grey zones that aren't breaking rules, like using the barrel on the bunker. But did you say guys on your team will call paint checks on your opponents for the purpose of wiping hits they took themselves? How grey is that? Wiping is breaking a major rule. Thats the kind of behavior that damages this sport. If your team is doing that, I hope they get caught and kicked out. Your teammate couldn't cut it and got eliminated, and because he knew your team wasn't good enough to win by the rules he chose to be a scumbag and wipe the shot. So he doesn't care about anyone besides himself and maybe you guys. He's the kind of guy that should be kicked out of the sport if he does it regularly. Rookie, amateur, pro, he is knowledgably and frequently disrespecting the game, rules, and other players with his actions with no remorse. He's a scumbag and I got no respect for him. Again this is all if he really does that. If your team knows he does it and condones these actions, you are all a joke and an embarrassment to the game. Again this is if you really cheat. If you're just yapping to be tough, I could care less. All you've done so far is prove the rest of us right.

cphilip

01-09-2003, 05:38 PM

Blnk,

You obviously have not spent near enough time in the class room and spend too much time playing you misguided form of Paintball.

Son, I am too old to play Tourney ball. But I go and I see it. This is not about paintball so much as it is right and wrong. Your attitude is an example of whats wrong in Paintball today. In time you will look back and regret your lack of integrety. Until that time you will not be worth my time to argue with. Your arguments are poorly formed and twisted. I cannot even follow you half the time. I know your trying to say something but its coming out all wrong. You realy do need to just give it up.

blnk162

01-09-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
You keep talking as if you are pro, saying you play at that level, and you mentioned you had sponsors. Well are you pro? Give a straight answer then.

OK, I take it the last one about goggleflauge while sniping is just a shot on Jeremy, and some of the others are grey zones that aren't breaking rules, like using the barrel on the bunker. But did you say guys on your team will call paint checks on your opponents for the purpose of wiping hits they took themselves? How grey is that? Wiping is breaking a major rule. Thats the kind of behavior that damages this sport. If your team is doing that, I hope they get caught and kicked out. Your teammate couldn't cut it and got eliminated, and because he knew your team wasn't good enough to win by the rules he chose to be a scumbag and wipe the shot. So he doesn't care about anyone besides himself and maybe you guys. He's the kind of guy that should be kicked out of the sport if he does it regularly. Rookie, amateur, pro, he is knowledgably and frequently disrespecting the game, rules, and other players with his actions with no remorse. He's a scumbag and I got no respect for him. Again this is all if he really does that. If your team knows he does it and condones these actions, you are all a joke and an embarrassment to the game. Again this is if you really cheat. If you're just yapping to be tough, I could care less. All you've done so far is prove the rest of us right.

I said we DONT have codes for cheating like other teams do...

And I am semi-pro/amatuer depends on what league you play, hopefully going pro soon.

I dont push what I do on any of you, If you dont like what I say or how I say it thats fine, your allowed that, but from the beginning of this thread everyone has twisted what I said from the get go from my previous history on the message boards.

Please read my posts correctly next time so it doesnt waste your time typing and mine having to re-explain myself

SlartyBartFast

01-09-2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

Youve obviously never played a national tournament then...

With higher competition comes different levels of cheating and rule bending in any sport.

If other professional sports allowed as much cheating as paintball they'd be laughed out of existence.

If you want people to watch tournaments and have new people join, it's the opinion of those outside the cicuit that count not those in it. Hopefully the disdain of the paintball comunity will finally one day make the "pros" clean up their act.

Blnk162, your basic argument is about a pathetic as a kid caught breaking windows "because my friends were as well". True moral strength is when you go against the majority to denounce an accepted wrong. Moral weakness/poor judgement is demonstrated by excusing your behaviour by saying "i'm just doing what everyone else is doing".

On another note:
I do think the emphasis is put in the wrong place in this discussion. In football, hockey, and baseball if a player commits an infraction and it isn't called, who gets blamed? THE REFEREES! Until event organisers, sponsers, and officiating start enforcing rules effectively the tournament scene will never improve.

I mean honestly. There are rules against swearing that should be easy to enforce. As a player swears at the ref, the ref just has to count. Once the player shuts up, penalise them according to the count. I swear if they did that once, the player would learn to respect the judges real fast.

SlartyBartFast

01-09-2003, 06:07 PM

First I think all teams should sign a form that makes them liable to pay back 10 times the top prise if it is proven they won by cheating.

Secondly to immediately increase the number of refs on the field allow "video replays".

What I mean is this:
Allow any team to lodge a complaint about any game or team with the head judge with video evidence. If found true, the offending team gets a penalty. If found false, complaining team receives the penalty. If not sure, the complaining team receives a minor penalty.

Probably not workable, but it was an idea. The biggest downfall I see is that teams with nothing to lose could swamp the judges with complaints hoping sink another team.

cphilip

01-09-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by blnk162

**** you, how dare you bring my parents into this, dont talk **** about anything you dont know homo.

For the rest of you, once again I never said cheating was right, or justitified but there are reasons for it, I cant even argue with any of you because you guys are comparing yourself to pro paintball which is a falacy, it doesnt matter, feel good that you spent so much brain power arguing, when your all pro then see what its like and see if you never cheat.

I warned you yesterday about cursing. Your reaction was way off base and out of line. And in this case you then Flamed him too. FINAL WARNING - cphilip

blnk162

01-09-2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by cphilip

I warned you yesterday about cursing. Your reaction was way off base and out of line. And in this case you then Flamed him too. FINAL WARNING - cphilip

Wait why cant we swear when there are filters?

Its not kindercare....

cphilip

01-09-2003, 08:40 PM

In the rules you agreed to it states you cannot challenge the filter. Main reason is that we can tell what you ment to say and so its still cursing. Its the rule and we all live with it here.

In your case its starting to feel like Kindercare...

blnk162

01-09-2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
In the rules you agreed to it states you cannot challenge the filter. Main reason is that we can tell what you ment to say and so its still cursing. Its the rule and we all live with it here.

In your case its starting to feel like Kindercare...

Thats cool, just I thought you get in trouble for bypassing the filter with alternate spellings and spaces..

Nice shot about the kindercare ill let that one slide.

TheBigRaguPB4L

01-10-2003, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by blnk162

Nice shot about the kindercare ill let that one slide.

I'm sure he's so relieved that you're going to let HIM slide.

Originally posted by blnk162

Thats cool, just I thought you get in trouble for bypassing the filter with alternate spellings and spaces..

You can't bypass the CURSE filters but you can curse. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Once there is an unbiased outside ref league/group that can refrain from being influenced by team owners/players, cheating will always be a major aspect of paintball. An unacceptable aspect, but still one nonetheless. There needs to be proffessional refs that get paid to enforce rules. Unfortunately where's the money going to come from that pay these refs?

QUINCYMASSGUY

01-10-2003, 08:48 AM

This is my last post on this issue unless something extremely motivates me to post another, it has gotten somewhat lame and I think the point most of us have been trying to make has been heard but those who actually understand what we're saying and aren't making weak excuses so I'm just going to conclude what I've been saying:

Blink, no matter what level you play on, experience you have, marker you use, or how much you actually cheat which I'm sure is at least enough to be included in the group of people we're talking about here, you have shown the behavior and attitude that is damaging our game. You may not have done anything as extreme as that scumbag Salm but you have the exact same mindset. Sure, others do it, and my bet is you don't have the maturity to do this, but you ought to think about what you've said and done and try to show more respect towards others and the game. As you act now, I would refuse to play on the same team with you, hands down. The first requisite for anyone on my team is love for the game and respect for it and those others who play it to enjoy it and don't ruin it. I can't do anything about you and probably won't play you anytime since we're in different regions, but unfortunately I know I'll play with and against many people that think as you do around here and that's a shame because it makes the game less fun.

The idea of video cameras is a good one. Alot of things slip by the refs but the ability to review the play and for fines to be handed out post-game if solid evidence can be presented is something that can force these crooked players to start behaving cause even if they win they will be losing alot of money by cheating to do it. It doesn't have to be a complex set of cameras, even handhelds would work. We pay $1500-2000 for pro markers, a $250 handheld Sony is all that's needed to make cheating risky and done less. We'll see.

This game shouldn't need more than three refs, it's the cheating and immature behavior that forces more. Paintchecks for when you're not sure, checking flag hangs, and other basic functions are what the ref should be doing, not getting cussed out or looking for wipers. I think the game could clean up a little soon with the NPPL and PSP now doing their own deals and in competition, but I'm not holding my breath for it. The shallowness and selfcenteredness of all the jerks who cheat just because they are not mature enough to accept defeat (someone always has to lose in a paintball match, that's how it is) has hurt the game and hopefully it will turn around soon.

That's it, I've made my point. Have fun with the rest of this argument.