Upgrades

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I have been looking into this and think I have come up with a great way for AGD to advance previous Mags. We have the Xvalve which I will be ordering today or tomorrow. We HOPEFULLY have Slug bodies that will be designed to be similar if not identical to the XMag bodies and differ only in that they sit on the rail currently found on Mags. And for a nonelectric upgrade we have the Intelliframe. Now, here is where AGD can do something to make older Mags become highly sought after items and new Mags even more popular:

By building the final, completed Slugs with a hole in the bottom of the breach for a vision eye, this would allow analog Mag owners to buy these bodies and use them for a while without a vision eye or electrics. HOWEVER, if it was made available AGD could sell an electronic upgrade identical to that in the XMag without vision eye, sell the vision eye seperately, and also offer the electronic upgrade and eye together as a package.

Now where does the eye go? Can't a replacement, all aluminium rail be designed that incorporates a vision eye into it and has rubber edges to seal the electronics and keep them away from water, paint, etc? It would also provide easy access to it for maintenance, cleaning, etc. It could even have an input to connect to be an Intellifeed but I guess that's jumping ahead.

With the bodies being designed as such, the steady path of upgrades would be available and would attract many customers as alot of people do not want to spend close to $1000 right off the bat, and definitely not the $1200 the XMag is going for. This way you could market these guns in price ranges such as $400 for basic setup, black design, and w/ level 10, $550 for anodized and fancy carved bodies, $700 for basic black electronic, $800 for for basic black electronic with vision eye, $900 for fancy carved electronic (providing direct and effective competition for the Orracle), $1100 for fancy carve electronic with vision eye, and finally $1200 for the superlight top-of-the-line XMag.

Each gun could be upgraded later on, but this gives all customers a product to select without limitations being presented to them in the near future. That is one thing older Mags are being presented with now. If you can make it so all older Mags can be retrofitted and follow this path, the days of the Mag will be reborn and you will have a much stronger tournament showing too.

If you can pull this off, and selective customization is a business practice any company should be able to do and adapt to very quickly (as in by spring, your biggest business season), you could make a severe impact in 2003 and probably give Impulses, Cockers, and other popular Markers a real challenge.

I present this idea to you and also am including a Poll for all visitors of AO including Tom Kaye and employees of AGD to give your input. By posting this I acknowledge that I am offering my ideas as free territory and do not intend to expect compensation for them in any way. Having this in print means you can use my ideas for free, of course if you make a million bucks off it a free XMag would be nice but not expected.

I Hope This Does Not Get Ignored, I Am Posting It For The Benefit Of All.

[ben_JD]

Why do you use a "\" in your questions?

[rikkter]

i was also thinking about a new type of body for AM and MM's to use cocker threaded barrels, and things. abling a mag to be fully customizable to the max. personally i think this would gather A LOT more customers as we all like to make our guns 'unique' in a certain way. and having the idea he had about the eye's, that'd be a good idea for the people who dislike level 10 and such, and also for the people trying to max out their mags. i think AGD should go forward with these ideas and make it fully customizable. i know i'd probably buy a cocker threaded body to be able to switch back and forth as i own some cocker barrels now as well.

[Xerces]

Originally posted by ben_JD
Why do you use a "\" in your questions?

its a bug in the poll script

[Troy]

try double spacing your paragraghs it makes long posts a lot easier to read.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I am happy with the responses so far and look forward to seeing continuing ideas regarding this market plan being presented to AGD. I have made the edits (spacing) requested but I'm not going to stress about the bug resulting in the "/" marks. I didn't type them, thats all I know :D

However, I would definitely be interested in comments being made by those who responded to the poll choices that either AGD shouldn't change a thing or that they don't have the resources for it. The whole reason I included those was I expected some people to have that impression and would definitely value more information into why you feel this is the case. All opinions are welcome even if it contradicts my view. The whole point is to have an open, civilized discussion of how AGD could do better and all responses don't have to be soaked in praises for AGD. We are all customers of AGD here (mostly) and the whole idea of this is to be critical and help iron out any issues they may have, give them customer feedback, and in doing so help them improve and win new customers as well as keep us happy. So please post your thoughts, whether they are positive or negative. And by all means expand on my ideas, that is how great products are created.

[Thordic]

I think that it MIGHT work, but I don't think it would be very profitable until Mags are in more use than they are now. AGD needs to work on growth through its X-mag and such for now, and if they can expand in the future, then worry about branching out. They don't have the research, production, and support capability to do everything at once.

14 employees last time I checked. Even with manufacturing outsourced, you need to do assembly, QA, shipping, recieving, technical support, research, marketing, and be able to get out to the major tournaments.

Until AGD is at a point where they have a much larger market share that allows them to expand, I think they need to limit the number of products they can develop and push at once.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thordic, you make a good point, one thing I was thinking in my idea is that the parts would be standard, in other words only one type of rail with vision eye would need to be made as it would fit on any of the markers. Same with any of the parts. By building to mimic the Automag and Minimag's connectivity (ie the grip would fit to a Minimags connections) it lets them build standard products in mass quantity while still allowing customizability (spelling, I know). Rikkter made a good point, people like custom guns, but Thordic made a good point about AGD's staff and capabilities. This would allow customization, upgradeability, while still falling within normal production methods as well as time and resource requirements.

AGD is small and has limited production, but that is a clear weakness. If they truly feel the XMag and all its individual features will thrust them back in the market, now is the time for them to expand their production. A company that plays too defensively gets crushed. A good paintball analogy is those who hide back in bunkers and don't take risks and push will lose. It's the same in business (although even with Enron you'll find less cheaters in business). They should put an office here in Boston, it'll double their national presence. This is a big paintball area too.

[cphilip]

OK first let me say I may not have competely followed you but I think I have what you are talking about down...

Here is an issue. The rail could be milled as a place for the eye. And the hole for it COULD be made. However without a grip containing a board nothing would be there to operate the eye. And without a grip with a battery on it nothing would be there to operate the board. So operating an eye on a non electronic marker requires quite and extensive rework. To the point of not making it worth it at some point piece by piece. Sort of like going to you automotive dealer and buy all the parts for a car and building your own. A 20K car now costs 150k.

But that being said if someone wants to buy all the parts to convert say an RT Pro to an Emag they already can. And if someone wants to take a Sluggo and drill a hole in it for the eye and place it on a X mag milled grip frame they already can.

I may not be understanding what it is you feel is missing except the hole in a body and prehaps a Sluggo blank that would allow one. And that issue will be addressed anyway with the eventual sale of the X bodies once the procuction is caught up and will be a lot easier way to do it that a hole in the Sluggo. That is fraught with problems of location and thickness to allow it to see up and yet not interfer with the ball. And also cleaning it would be a chore. The removable breach in the X mag body allows that. I do not think a modified Sluggo body it the way to go with that one.

I realy think all your ideas have already been addressed for upgrades. Just in more practical ways. And availability is still a problem. However affordability will always be an issue. People just may decide its not worth it and sell that one and buy the already upgraded one. That makes sense at some point.

[Dayspring]

One big problem with making an upgrade for older mags to include the ACE is that the twist-lok barrel isn't designed for the eye. The barrel has to have a hole so the eye can see through. The reason the X-Mag can do it is because of the removable breech & cocker barrel setup.

A nice idea, too bad it's not going to work out right.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I am glad to see CPhillip responded as he is definitely an authority on Mags and I value his views as we all should. I think I can clear up a couple things regarding my idea.

I know the eye would be pointless without electronics. I just meant to have all the new bodies made with the capability to use the eye so that if someone buys an analog Mag they could go fully electronic later on without buying a whole new Slug body. They would only need the new rail with the eye that'll fit onto the body they already have, and the electronic frame. And a battery wherever it would be housed, either in the frame or as a front grip.

When I say Slug bodies, I am referring to the end product that AGD will hopefully be making that will fit onto older Mags. I take it that is the whole idea with the Slugs, they are prototypes of the bodies you will soon make available fully complete. And hopefully they will include a removable and switchable breach. So since they have no official name yet for the bodies that will be coming out, I call them Slugs now. Speaking of which, do you know the ESTIMATED time these new bodies to retrofit Mags are expected out? All I want is a simple black one that has flat sides that sit flush with the rail. Nothing fancy to add hundreds to the cost, just the vertical feed, cocker threading, ball detent, and a design way more modern that the tube shape body I got now. Mags need a new look and these bodies will be great for AGD.

Finances are an issue, which is the key reason why I think these parts should retrofit current Mags. I have the XValve coming and an Intelliframe in a Minimag. If I can just switch the body for now, it'll only cost me $150-200 (hopefully). If I sold my Mag it would be considered outdated at this point and I wouldn't get much. The extra cash I would have to put in for the new one would probably be $300-400. And that would be for the nonelectric design I am talking about, not the XMag. Gradual upgrades helps out older customers and still lets AGD profit. It has worked very well for Worr Game Products, Kingman, Tippman (98 Custom has brought them right back in the game with this ability), etc. If AGD wants to overprice them, sure, then it'll cost tons, but if we already have an upgraded valve w/ Level 10, a body upgrade shouldn't be too bad and it makes AGD look better on the field.

PS-For Dayspring and others who are confused, I am talking about the new bodies that have Cocker Thread Barrels like the XMag. The minute those become available for all Mags I think Twist-lock will be obselete or just a collector's item.

[cphilip]

Well with the X body you will not need a rail. Its incorporated into the body. And the Sear hangs in that. But you will need some work done to your Emag grip to have a place to seat the ACE board, the ACE board itself of course, and a software update. I would guess bodies would be available for this in the Fall if all the new marker demands is satisfied. Maybe sooner if they are faster in coming. Just a guess.

However the Sluggo is milled to go on a rail so the rail would have to be milled also along with a properly milled emag Grip frame. And I do not know if you can mill both carefully enough so they line up perfect without a lot of effort. That is three things in a row to mill and line up. Rather than a hole in the bottom of a removable breech like the X mag body does for you. That allows you to lift the hole around the ACE eye up and over for cleaning and removal real nice. Without taking the body off. You would have to take it all apart with a body, rail and grip arrangement. Not quite as easy nor as slick.

Basically if you wanted a ACE and wanted a custom body for it you would chose to throw out the rail from the mix, get a regular X mag body (not C&C) and mill that and then do all the other stuff like prepare the emag grip for an ACE.

Anyway a ACE in a marker is just a whole nother beast that does not lend itself to this idea of making the whole range of markers universal. They can't so it with a lot of the mechanical designs out here nor go the other way either. You do not see a mechanical Angel out there do you? So people can say they own an Angel? Nor much signs of an ACE in many of the Cockers as a general rule. Take away the odd ball limited one of a kinds and its just not practical to do things like this in your main line of markers is all. And very cost prohibitive. You leave that to the custom guys. They gotta feed their kids too!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Well you're right in that sounding like alot of work. This whole idea would entail replacing the body and rail in older Mags with a two-part body basically, or a body built on top of the current rail, the lower part or rail that has the option of housing a board for a vision eye. For older Mags it would require buying the new lower body with the eye already built in. If an Impulse can have this functionality it is possible for newly designed Mags.

One note: I am talking about a Minimag in regards to mine, not an EMag. My marker is nonelectric because the only high-quality electric upgrade is the Hyperframe, and this goes for $400 or so and would void my warranty. I can't afford that or want to lose the warranty. I would have an analog Intelliframe and was hoping that bodies could be made that work well for analog Mags now but use the setup with the rail that I have been describing that could replace the current rail and house the vision eye. To sum up, with the upcoming new body release if the bodies were designed to work on the current rails but also have a newly designed rail/bottom half that can come with or without a vision eye installed, it could let any current Mag be fully converted, partially converted (such as no eye but electronic), and not limit the upgradeability of current Mags. If this is not possible then current Mags will begin to become obselete since their electronic conversion will be inferior to the XMag without the Eye.

I wish I was good at using computer graphics and such, I would create a graphic image showing you what I mean specifically regarding the two part body. I know it could work, it's just we have a communication breakdown somewhere, in other words I don't think I'm communicating the idea in the best way possible. Having the modularity be a standard feature is a huge selling point and not as hard as it sounds.

So are you saying the new Slug bodies fully carved, anodized, and completed won't be available from AGD until the fall? Isn't Spring the big season for the tournament season and trade shows? Even getting a few official and complete ones sold through AGD online would help sales later on by getting the product out on the field and all other customers asking questions. Businesses slow on execution of ideas are usually the ones who get buried, another company could get a similar product out in February and crush you guys that way.

[cphilip]

No I am not saying Sluggos fully milled will not be ready until Fall. I have no idea on them. I was reffering to X Mag bodies. But who knows on either of them. If you try and get Tom to predict, he will most likely exagerate so he does not have to hear the grippin and moanin when something delays it. Expect him to say "2005!" :D

I do not think Emags will be inferior at all! With level 10 now in the mix its a whole nother situation. I think some people are even turning thier ACE off. Some people like ACE and some really do not. Other than that, its the same fire power and action so I should think they will be the same. People may WANT an X mag. But they will be put in the dead box by an Emag just was quick. Its not a magic bullet for no "game".

If you have and Emag and want to stick a X body on it its real easy it looks to me. A little more if you want to add ACE (which you do not have too). Me? I would maybe at the most put the body on and leave the ACE off. But thats just me.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Although I still think my idea could work even though it would prompt AGD to go with a whole new design philosophy, I see your points. For now, do you have any idea on what types of SLUG bodies will be available when AGD officially releases them, and if they will basically be identical in nature to those being designed by people now with the raw Slugs, or if they will be full XMag bodies that retrofit previous AGD markers including the Minimag? A high rise vertical feed, nice-looking body with Cocker threads and ball detent is my goal but I am a little nervous about buying a raw body and having it worked on by someone outside of AGD. I think you make the highest quality products and I would rather wait for the bodies from you guys if they are coming out on the sooner side of things. I fully understand if you have no idea when that is.

Any other ideas on products from AGD in the near future (first half of 2003) that Tom has planned for us? Is it confirmed that bodies that retrofit Minimags will be coming out and when that is and what they look like are the only unsure details? An XMag trigger conversion would be nice.

One final question: When it comes to how the individual parts are put together, how much does the Minimag and XMag differ? What I mean is, could the grip frame of an Xmag TECHNICALLY fit onto a Minimag and the battery in front TECHNICALLY connect to where the ASA on a Minimag is? And could the wire from the battery to the grip TECHNICALLY fit into a space carved into the rail? Again, I say technically because I won't quote you or ever think you are promoting doing that. If I wreck my gun, I totally agree it would be my fault.

[cphilip]

Well Tom dropped a hint in another thread yesterday that they were working on a Sluggo that would be in the ULE category. I would have to assume for sale. So thats exciting is it not? And the fact that he said they were working on it now means we might get a look at it soon!

I never tried it to but you could slap an emag grip onto a regular rail I think. Problem with all that is how the sear is mounted and what type of sear is used. Easier to put it on a RT Pro or and Emag rail realy. Not sure if the RT Pro one is milled so that sear with the plunger can pass through. So lets say Emag rail to be sure. Must be something different though as the two use different lenght on off pins but I am not certain where that difference comes in. Your mini had a sear that sits on a pin in a slot in the rail. These two (emag and RT Pro) have ones that use a screw pin that screws into a threaded part of the rail. Different. So right off hand I would say of you did slap and emag grip on it then it would not do you much good except to give you somewhere to mount the electronics.

So lets say you want to go further then. So you change the rail so you can use one with a plunger rod and Brass Bushing. So then you change the rail to an emag rail and get this emag sear and sear screw pin to do that you only have the body and valve left to use from your mini. And since your body has a round Pennel not an oval one you would have to grind off the sides of the body pennel to get it to go down in the oval hole in the rail(has been done by the way). And then you got yourself and emag with minimag body once you do all that.

So in review you just replaced everything but the body and valve (not sure which one you have). And you had to modify the body inorder to use it and perhaps change the on off pin in that valve too. So you want to do all that?

OK rail and grip about $200-250 or so if you shop around. Sear and pin say $55. Emag Board $200. Selenoid and HES and Battery another couple hundred? ...well we will be over an emag by then but hey! You got to use your valve and body!!!! :) See? Not simple as you would think and not cheap.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

So you're saying there's a chance? (Dumb And Dumber Quote For The Uninformed)

Ok, I agree that shoots that one right out of the water. I think selling the Mag and buying an XMag or hopefully a lower price one without the eye to be released later (hint hint Tom Kaye :D )is the way to go. I planned on getting a new body as my next upgrade anyways. I like the powerfeed over the classic feed, but an Angel Hi-Rise is something I'm dying for. And a better looking body than the ugly one Mags have used so far is another big step up for me.

On the topic of uninformed, I am not familiar with what you mean by ULE category. Is that, in other words, going to mount on the rail? Or am I way off? What thread is that you are referring to?

[cphilip]

yea I wonder why no one is doing it! :(

Hey keep the mini and put one of these new bodies on it and use it for a back up!!! its a classic marker!!! :)


ULE = "Ultra Light Engineering".

He is implying they are taking as much meat off the sluggo body as possible to make it Ultra Light. :D

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Oh, I love my gun. I played for 10 hours last saturday and didn't have one single technical issue (all indoor speedball, but I took some time off to learn how to ref and have a pro teach me some tactics, I am really into the game these days but can't afford to play all the time). The only three things I'm looking at are
1.) My medium to long range accuracy wasn't that great. I heard Mags aren't the best for this because of using a nubbin and 1/4 turn barrel but my aim might play a role. I hate looking over the powerfeed. Whats your take on nubbin vs. the new ball detent and cocker barrels? I use a Smartparts All American right now.
2.) It's ugly and heavy. It works great which is why I bought it, but I'm dying to get one of these ULE bodies! Just as long as they aren't as "bendy, rattly, and frail" as Micromag bodies are. I think they don't hold a barrel, valve, and frame as well as AGD bodies do. I hope it's up to AGD's standards of quality and durability. With my new Xvalve the tank'll be the heaviest part by far.
3.) The trigger pull is short, which i like, but pretty heavy. High rates of fire are tricky, I can't afford Electric just now and kind of prefer analog, but the pull on a Mag is definitely heavy enough to slow rapid and snap shooting. Any ideas on safe and effective Mods? I use an Xvalve and Intelliframe.
If I can solve these three things I will be AGD for life. I really trust the company but it's expensive stuff. I can't afford to buy six different markers so a reliable, high quality one is what I like and the Minimag has been that from day one. Any ideas would be highly valued.

[cphilip]

well what are you cronoing at? You should be getting as good as anyone else. You didn't say the length of the barrels but eveyone has to lob em at a distance. Nor did you specify the bore and what your paint fit was in it. That is the key is the fit. You may need a range of barrels to compensate or look into one of the kits

Your new X mag vavle is gonna change your trigger feel somewhat. And your rate of fire too. And if you can adjust input your realy gonna find that mod is the best out there for the ROF. You already have the best frame for it. I should think all you got left is the body to work on and this one sounds like the ticket! I should think they will take in to account where and when they mill off to make sure its still strong. And yea your gonna need an Angel rise feed and a cocker barrel or a few.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Sorry for the constant questions, but you are helping me out alot right now. Like I said, aim at long range is probably my fault, it's hard to shoot straight down the body with the powerfeed there. having space to the left and the right is why I want an Angel or Autococker hi-rise. I'm stuck using PMI Invader at the field I play at, barrel bore being .68. I never really focused on matching those two but never had issues with it.

I use a Crossfire 68ci, 3000psi preset at 850psi output. It was very affordable, works well, and paying $300-400 for an adjustable regulator setup when the Mag has a regulator is nuts to me. Definitely pro stuff. I plan on going up to 4500 soon though. Any suggestions for good (and affordable) adjustable Nitro setups? I know about the Flatline, but way too much money for an amateur with my income (just out of college).

Finally, can I get the name of that thread you were referring to? I'm definitely interested in taking a look a it. Thanks for everything, you have been a big help to me.

[cphilip]

Well you need to do that Blow Through test on that barrel and paint match and see if its a good fit. At least that will tell you where you are now on that end. And remember it will change with the temperature, humidity and age of the paint sometimes. You have to be able to compensate some days.

The thread was tittled something about "ULE". Tom did not post a picture of what he was talking about. Keep and eye out for it though. He will.

Your gonna love that reactive trigger I think!

[rdb123]

Originally posted by Xerces


its a bug in the poll script

Actually it's not, it's part of the way the forum was programmed. If you just use an apostrophe, that will not make the page text format correctly. Therefore, you must use an escape charater. The backslash is the standard that is also used in C++.

Only way to get around this would be to type the ascii code for that character. You may or may not know this, but if you open up an html source and type in "nbsp;", that will give you a space mark. Hehe

;)

-Ron

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
I think selling the Mag and buying an XMag or hopefully a lower price one without the eye to be released later (hint hint Tom Kaye :D )is the way to go.I do not think that the eye is a major contributor to the cost of the X-Mag (just a major contributor to the DELAY of the X-Mag).

[DeathscytheSK]

I think that Quincy's idea would be so awesome even if its not possible, having a gun that has so many optional upgrades and even making it go from analog to electronic would be amazing