I am curious why paintball technology hasn't done major leaps?

[hostage]

I am at college and I am awed by the ammount of knowledge that some of my peers have in their fields. At RIT we have Electronic, Micro, Computer, Software, Civil, Mechanical, and Airontical Engineers, as well as Computer majors such as IT (me), CS, MIS, and a few others. With all that knowledge I would like to research new ideas and test them out with the proper equipement. That is another thing we have, not only knowledge, but also the Equipment/Machinery to do a project. The issue is guidence, we lack it. I just want us to get together and do a project, thinktank. Look how little has changed in paintball. You have the automag, same concept that has been improved and changed very little from the orignal Automag 68. You have pumps and pumps that were converted into semis (cockers). Lastly you have the Spyder clones and the types that function much like them.

Anyway, so there is this massive useless thinktank that is just sitting next to the machinery that should be used. The majority of us have to come up with stupid useless excuses, (I know since I can be like one of them), on how we need to do all of this and have no money to play pb or what not. Well here is the question, how many scientists and engineers do many paintball realted companies have as well as the machinery? Wouldn't it make sense for companies to sponser or outsource to knowledgable people that can directly improve there product for very little costs of their own products? I'm in a club of ill motivated paintball players, I want to work on projects such as this, but since there is no gain for anyone to do this. They end up spending their time flipping burgers to play this expensive sport, since they lack the capital. Though if they got an offer for free paint and to get their name reconized for revolutinizing the sport.

Well to end this story, we all get a good offer from some ABC company, graduate, and history repeats itself.

Well what are yalls opinions on this concept? Jeeze I think I kind of gave myself an awnser.
-Doron

[demonguy8]

I think its quite simple there really isnt much that can be easily improved upon, or maybe its too cost prohibitive to go down such roads (weve had the technology to have electric driven cars for YEARS but for those to work they would to change gas stations, modify homes, and possibly even mobile plugs (which would either need to be manned, effectivly making them electric gas stations,or have some form of universal currency card like a social security deposit credit card thing) hmm maybe this isnt really the simple answer id intended it to be...

On the other side of the coin...there have been enourmous improvements to the paintball industry.. Selonoids, magnetic triggers, photoeyes, computer chips, 5kairfills,heck 4.5k fills,or even 3k airfills! Not even counting the ways that paint production has improved/ made less costly to produce (altho the players arent seeing any real drop in price :( ) These are HUGE advances for our sport technilogically speaking..

and since i have two completely different answers, Ill draw both paragraphs together with a comparison(considering my real answer is a combination of both paragraphs).. LOOK at the automotive industry! When you boil it all down everyone is still using a combustion powered engine.. sure they may have transmissions and turbos and some even have electronic assistance (the hybrid cars) but thats like using a board to limit bps, hair triggers, Or increasing the markers efficiancy by redesigning a reg. The auto industry has been around for 100 years and is STILL on the same BASIC sytem that they started with and they are probly a1000x larger market!
so to sum it up there are countless breakthroughs but to do someting completely different can be to cost prohibitive to bother with so we just remake what we already got a little bit better...

Edit: i should prolly add id been up for about 23 hours when i wrote this

[Doc Nickel]

It's quite simple: First off, technology in this sport has grown by leaps and bounds. True, we haven't pulled an Intel and quintupled processor speed in eighteen months, but then, neither do we have a forty billion dollar indistry driving a $500 million/year company.

Consider that our sport has grown from ten-shot, 12-gram powered bolt action pistols to programmable electronically fired force-fed markers powered by 4,000 psi compressed air, in only twenty years.

The price of paint has plummetted ($40 a case of 2,000 vs. $2 a tube of ten?) the cost of playing has dropped, there's fields everywhere, and you can get a decent semiauto for under a hundred bucks. (The 68 Special, when it first came out, was $400, over ten years ago.)

We now have computerized markers, infrared programmability, in-breech anti-chop sensors and a whole host of programmable fire modes.

Why haven't we gone further? Simple- Point Number Two: we deliberately, artifically limit gun performance.

In racing, whether cars, motorcycles or horses, the idea is always to go faster. Engines are tuned for more horsepower to make more top end speed.

However, in paintball, we have a maximum playing limit of 300 fps. Meaning that no matter what you do to the gun, if you want to use it, you have to keep it under that speed. So things like valve porting, flow rates and other factors, if adequate for the marker as is, don't need to be changed.

Also, most governing bodies for the sport restrict anything but semiautomatic fire modes. Yes, we have full-auto modes, and people with the right setup can get wild rates of fire, but for the most part, a great many players are limited to however fast they can pull the trigger manually. (Which runs around eight to thirteen shots per second, with a sustainable average being around nine or ten.)

So consequently, for the most part, other than playing around in the backyard, we're limited to a fixed muzzle velocity, and a certain ballpark rate of fire.

With the latest electronic markers, we're already chock full of features that few users will actually use. Digital temperature readouts? Programmable text messages on startup? Do things like this really help anyone's game? No, they're trinkets- shiny bits to attract buyers.

Which is where we are now- The gun has long since surpassed the player in possible ROF, paint really isn't gonna get any rounder, barrels have been as good as they're gonna get since about '95 or so (the only thing a multi-part barrel gains is the adjustable bore) and airsystems are pretty much at their peak already, with +/- 1fps capabilities. So the only real improvements are cosmetic (milling and anno) and ergonomic (different shape grips, various drop-forwards) and pure, useless fluff (the aforementioned temperature readouts and text messages.)

So we're in the same stage as the cell phones. Coverage is everywhere, everyone has one, they're clear as a bell and batteries last for days. So the only real improvements they make are trinkets- custom ring tones, color screens, snap-on covers.

Doc.

[Top Secret]

Major leaps? Look at us compared to the firearms industry. Hasn't been much for innovation the since the 60's. Guns have been around for over 400 years. We went from a flintlock to a OICW in about 20 years in the paintball industry.

[Miscue]

They're pretty much at the point where all that's left to work on is figuring out how to lower manufacturing costs.

Big innovation in paintball in the future probably won't have much to do with the actual markers... but other paintball related stuff.

[FutureMagOwner]

i suppose it all depends on what you consider a leap i consider that agd makes a valve that doesnt have shootdown in upwards of currently unreachable speeds i think thats a large one its dinner time so im not gunna give any more examples for now but i hope you understand my point

[TigerMan]

I think Doc hit the nail on the head, he pretty much summed up everything and how far we have come in such little time.

Then again though, if you think about it you'd think we'd have nothing to improve on, but in reality there is things that can be improved the idea just hasn't been thought. Like for you older players, how many of you ever though there be a thing such an electronic paintball gun? It's just a matter of the idea being thought then being made. Who knows what will be next, maybe something like a new design paintball holding system, or maybe new ways to power the markers.

Like all things, it just takes time, and of course the technology. Like you hear many people in different fields say. "Oh we would have done that sooner, it's just the technology wasn't there." So with time, new ideas may become reality. But for such a short period that this sport has been around, we HAVE made huge leaps and bounds.

[Darkstorm]

Hostage,
If you have people that are serious....I can give a number of ideas to you that would be cool to work on. Some might be able to get funded, one or two I would cut a deal with you on, others are just fun. Don't think just about the gun.

We can step over to deep blue if AGD doesn't mind us talking about some really weird stuff over there. I don't have the time to actually do this cool stuff any more, so if you want to, I'll give you whatever concept I have.

---------------------------------------------------------

Or you could just invent a way to get more women to play and you would be a GOD in the paintball community. <smile>

[AGD]

The reason why paintball technology is not progressing as fast as you think is should is only because of YOU the painball public!

Most players want to use what Chris Lasoya uses NOT whats new and "different". Todays players have an idea of what a "paintball player" looks like and if they don't buy stuff that looks like that they feel stupid.

Camo is not cool right?
Pros don't use warps right?
You pay extra for DYE stuff right?

If it as all about technology I wouldn't have to be here every day asking you what to do next.

AGD

[Remington]

I don't know what everyone else is like but I for one am very conscientious about what I spend my money on. Tom, I would only buy DYE clothing if I know it would hold up to the rigors of tournament style play, just like I buy AGD equipment because I know that it does stand up to tournament play. I know AGD has down lots of testing to make its equipment better, as well as help improve the sport of paintball in general. What I don't understand is why other paintball manufacturing companies don't follow suit. If everyone made their products as well as AGD makes its products, I for one believe that the sport of paintball could have the chance of going mainstream. The problem that is keeping paintball from going in that direction is the lack of product testing by a lot of manufacturers. I buy paint from RPS, markers from AGD, hoppers from Richochet(company name?), and tanks from Crossfire because I know all these companies put a lot of time, money, and effort into testing their products and by doing so help make their products the very best they can be, for the lowest price possible. Sorry for making that so long. :D Just my 2 cents.

[Nitroduck]

Im wondering what rock you are under so I can come tip that rock over and show you the progress the paintball industry has made in 10 years...

Lets look at 92 to 2002


You had Mags that costed about $800, fired 9bps, the hopper could only keep up with the gun barely, Nitrogen was rare and cost $400 for a 2.5k nitrogen system. Paint costed about $80-$100 a case, quite a few people were still using JT Whippersnapper masks, harness were very crappy (one of the videos I have shows a guy using something that resembles toilet paper tubes that were hauling paint, shakin and bouncing everywhere), playing in woods with very little man-made bunkers.

We now have Mags that cost $300, preform better than their counterparts of 92, hoppers can keep up with the insane rates of fire, Nitrogen systems cost $200 for a tank thats nearly twice as large, paint goes for $50 no problem for paint of superior quality versus the paint from 92, we have masks that change color, ambered, chromed, vented, ported masks that look like your some sort of invader from a distant galaxy, harnesses that can hold more than a case of paint (which the tubes are chromed, to reflect heat from melting the paint), playing on man-made fields SPECIFICALLY for the paintball industry in stadiums.

Paintball might not be moving as fast as the computer industry, but gosh darnit, we're moving faster than nearly every other industry.

[halB]

its because it costs too much money for me to get a damn patent, but if u wanna buy a patent for me, ill increase paintball trigger technology 2X ooooooo yaaaaaa

also, the main reason is image.

players dont really care about performance, all they care about is image and style. also, every time that a new invention comes out, its met with severe resistance from the players. think of C/A. players stuck with 12g until AGD ironically killed 12g with their 6 pak change-o-matic thingy. they resisted c/a, claiming it would end the spirit of the game, and the tourney scene was stricly 12g. but agd changed that

then again, there was resistance with the RT valve, sure it was only banned in some tournies for a short time. but it was still resisted.

plus, where else do we have to go? we're going to be reaching the limit soon on rof where balls cant be fed that fast without breaking, and the human finger can still only fire 10 bps constantly. plus the re-emergence of stock class shows players growing dissatisfaction with spray and pray.

plus, the biggest thing, we're not really sponsored. i think the biggest thing we can do is get sponsored by ar eal company, like, ugh, nike, but thats not gonna happen until we clean up our sport, stop the cheating and cursing, and develop a version of paintball thats damn friendly to paintball.

[FalconGuy016]

Some of you really sound like you just based your reply off the title, and not the actual post

[Hornet]

well what would the new technology do? anti-chop, auto etc are alrdy out i mean what do u want? only thing i think what would be cool is a in-gun chrono or a LCD tunner for your reg thats it :/

[FooTemps]

i wish they could make their warps as cheap as revies... I wish they could make warps smaller too... Then I bet even more people would buy them. They'd be smaller, most of a chance lighter, and cheaper (which means their more convinient for people). I also wish AGD creates a super ergonomic (sp?) gripframe.

[Hornet]

it would be cool to have a new option on the x-mag to have the warp tube/feed to be UNDER the gun ......my friend has been hit lots o times on the feed tube, also AGD could make a flatline/warp combo cradle

[hostage]

Well I have a renewed since of drive thanks to some of yall and how some things went well tonight. I went out with some of my club members to play pb tonight, we had an okay time being placed in an overcrowded field that was biased to one side. Reason I say it was okay, since we had a lot more fun later playing with my timmy and my friends spyder on how we could just interchange all the parts on them. It was sad how they fit so well. I was sitting talking to a Computer, Electronic, and Mechanical Engineers, with me (IT) and a CS major. We all seemed to be interested in the idea of R&D.

Darkstorm, that might be a good idea, we have some ideas of our own that we want to try out. Getting feedback from others we could easily accomplish this task(s).

Well imho, I think there is always room for improvement. When you say you can't, then that is when technology has a ression. Heat seeking paintballs or semi-bunker-permible paintballs hehe...j/k

MB my friends and I need a challange, someone or some company says we want to see this, but dont they have the time or means to do it.
-Doron

[nuclear zombie]

sure we've had leaps abounds aplenty, valve design , electronics , cnc cosmetic milling, just to name a few . We can look back about 20 years , and observe that paintball guns are still operating on the basic princeiple of expanding gas as a propellent.

You want to make a leap, design a paintball marker which opereates soley on electricity. The biggest problem I see in the paintball industry is that alot of fields can't afford HPA compressors or boosters and usually can only provide 2k psi off of standard nitro tanks.

You could use a large Lithium-Ion battery , a couple high speed DC motors, and make a mini pitching-machine for paintballs.

just my $.02

Good Luck
and check out the tinkers guild @ www.docsmachine.com they might help with some theories.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by nuclear zombie
[B]You want to make a leap, design a paintball marker which opereates soley on electricity.

Um, now you have left the realm of the practical. The firearms industry still uses expanding gasses as propellant, despite the advances in that technology over the last 700 years. We have been around for less than 30.

Before we do that, lets see about using those rumored bullet shaped paint marking projectiles (they are not balls anymore) that AGD invented the milatary, in a paintball game.

Ogre

[Darkstorm]

Hostage, I have enough stuff to keep you busy for a year. I 'll dump it into a deep blue thread and thing can get split into seperate thread from there.

BTW - you should pay attention to all posts for ideas....like "nuclear zombie" but not in the way he meant it. See you in deep blue.

[hostage]

So you think if we make a suggestion box and anything we make due to someone's ideas we give them one of the first prototypes?
-Doron

[RamboPreacher]

I am with AGD and Doc here.
Since about 93 or so, I wanted to have a HUD in my goggs with nightvision, shot count, time, temp, digital compas and countdown timer. I have approached several people several times, about it and some say it could be done, some don't even want to think about it.

Obviously that would not be for tournies (at least not with all that stuff, but maybe a tourney version) - but for scenarios and rec - that would be great. Okay, so the combined cost of all the seperate items might be a couple grand, but that shouldn't be if more folks wanted them. but will NEVER be if a manufacture doesn't make them and give them to a pro-team.

Same for markers. I had a clear autococker, way before others even thought of doing that kind of thing. everytime I want to do something I get knocked down, and kicked about. I am not an airsmith and I am not really an inventor, but I have possible ideas that I have tried to talk to "those that can", and normaly get "pocket-booked-out" because they dont' wnat to help and price to not sell, or just think I am crazy and wnat to get as much money as they can from me.

There have been trmendous leaps in marker technology (I am not saying they all are perfect), trap doors, boltless designs, dump chambers, and all the electronics that have been integrated is really amazing. But as AGD says, really it is about what we want. If "we" want to pay $2000 for a mouse-click trigger JAE, then they will make them. All the manufacture has to do is build a $700 marker, give it to a pro team, and see what the market does. those things will prolly sell like hotcakes and at double the price. (not against making a profit, that was only as an example).

On the other hand, I wnat a True Stock Class pumper that gets the max shot count out of a 12gramm and I have to pay the same price - no electronics, no mass manufacture, all hand-scratch built - because there are only a dozen or so of us that want to get something that "the pro's" don't have. (once again, an example - I could have used differnet versions of semi's)

As Doc said, we have self imposed limitations, and almost every thing limited is because of safety/insurance reasons. I am glad! I remember the days of (what's a chroney) shooting as fast as you can without breaking the balls in the marker (what a mess with oil based paint), and shop-goggles. Boy were we dumb back then. but we have grown, and we stsill are. Imagine another 15-20 years and looking back and saying "boy were we dumb back then".

Paintball is about fun (for me). I just wanna play. I don't care if John Doe super-pro has one or not. I want a trigger that is fast and has some tactile feedback, and not a clickity click. anyway, now i am ranting, sorry. - just my 2cents

[UThomas]

"Before we do that, lets see about using those rumored bullet shaped paint marking projectiles (they are not balls anymore) that AGD invented the milatary, in a paintball game."

They use to make those in the early 90's. They were a lot more expensive, used spring clips, and didn't work that well if memory serves. They also had an add on fin kit from another company. Same story. I'll see if I can dig up and old APG and find their add some time.

[luke]

Here’s an idea, it’s not mine originally, but it hasn’t been done yet...
Cordless Intell for a Warp.