Let's talk about Xball...

[cledford]

I first saw Xball at the IAO. I really understand the need for a TV/viewer friendly version of paintball to help move the sport forward. For the reason I'm not out to bash Xball - but am also put out about the fact that it's kinda become the defacto "new kid on the block" without much player input at all - although the big industry types seem to really be jumping on the wagon. I'm a little concerned that it was basically made up by one guy, with no real input from the players of the world. I also don't see it addressing other (possibly more serious) issues like cheating. finally, it'd great to see a lot of the big manufacturers getting on board, but just because it's a move in the right direction doesn't mean it should be a shoe-in. I'm a little concerned that there is such a rush to propel the sport forward to become more of an extreme sport (meaning extreme profits for those in the industry) that the "powers that be" might be in a rush to support ANYTHING better, even if it isn't "good enough." I mean come-on, we are talking about the successor to the game as we currently know it. If you think about it, it is even a bigger jump then moving the game from the woods to hyper/speed-ball format - as with regard to the latter 2 the tactics and play are the same - it's just that the field changed. With Xball the fields may look similar, but the game play is much different.

Again, I'm not out to bring it down - I think in general it's a good thing. But lets discuss it, talk about how it could be better - or even build our own "new" format that might be just as good. I think from a reffing, cheating, spectator perspective the current format has huge problems -and Xball is a move in the right direction. I've also developed some ideas on my own about how things could have been changed for the better - and also don't think Xball has gone far enough.

Anyhow, for my first suggestion regarding any style of play - come out with a set field size (or sizes based on number of players) and set field layouts. This will any team, anywhere to setup say field type "A" and practice drills, team "power plays", and special moves and be able to easily use them at events on the EXACT field they will be playing on in competition.. This would increase the spectator excitement, increase teamwork, and make it more fair to all teams.

-Calvin

P.S. This thread was started due to some thought that popped up when replying to Ogre's "cheating" thread...

[Automaggin2]

In all honesty, i think it is horrible. It was just someones dumb idea that came to life because of a company that but in the financial backing for it. If i had a million dollers i would invent my own type, AutomagginBall. Xball is a very premature idea, and it obvioulsy wasnt thought out to the fullest extent. I would quit paintball if XBall because the next big thing, and all tournaments revolved around it.

[pito189]

I can't really say anything about it, because I have not played. I have to say that having the score board, and the wireless chrono's I am a big fan of though. Quick turnaround times also.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Automaggin2
In all honesty, i think it is horrible. It was just someones dumb idea that came to life because of a company that but in the financial backing for it. If i had a million dollers i would invent my own type, AutomagginBall. Xball is a very premature idea, and it obvioulsy wasnt thought out to the fullest extent. I would quit paintball if XBall because the next big thing, and all tournaments revolved around it.

Good reply - you reflect some of my own concerns about it - mainly the "half-baked" part.

Any suggestions to make it better, or in general for what ever the "future" game consists of?

-Calvin

[cledford]

SCoreboard is a good idea. The tower is weak since it's not used for judging. I vote to keep the tower - but actually USE it for something useful.

To address the cheating problem I propose video cameras and judges in the "tower" to backup the on-field refs. There could be a horn to "freeze action" if someone needs to be pulled from play by a tower judge.

-Calvin

[demonguy8]

while ill admit it does need some work.. (mainly the cheating aspect)

I also think that this is the wave of the future and sure beats the heck out of the current formats for tourneys..


I dont really have any specific Ideas for the game, save to say that America won the nations cup and had more penalties by far than the other teams.. This is not the case in other sports... Ie football where the team with more than double the penalties usually loses... The sad thing is that the current xball penalty box system greatly caters to cheaters to try and make it more interesting.. (in case your wondering what im talking about whena players time in the box runs out he gets up and instantly jions the game nomatter how far along it is.. this causes chaos and some interesting plays nodoubt but also gives the team who got penalized a small suprise advantage.. ie its a 2 on 1 and while they work up the field on the one a guy gets out of the box so its a 2on2 now... entertaining?yeah. rewarding the cheaters with some of the best moves of the game? unfortunatly also yeah)

what it comes down to is it needs to find a new way to keep the game interesting while making it so that penalties actually do hurt the team..

now this little rant is in no way implying that america didnt deserve to win since they WHERE the best team out there (playing 2 on 5 and STILL winning 2 games is simply amazing)but with all the penalties.. a team like Russian Legion should have been in a better position to win

[cphilip]

Well I have been involved with it some at World Cup. I pod squaded for our Clemson Team. Its very interesting realy. Its very high paced with squads and such. I think it has a real future once an exact format is nailed down and so people can indeed train for it. The style there was capture the flag pretty much with games played in a timed fashion as many games as you could play in that time period. You had to realy have two squads so they could rest between games as one would start like two minutes or so after the other. Each time you eliminated a side you got a point. Each time you won by the other team throwin in the towel you got a point. If you got the flag too you got another point but you had to hang the flag within that games time period as well. The spectators can call positions but must be on the sepectators side only. The on field coach can call out to the field. Any off field coaches may coach only to the on field coach. Its realy something you have to be involved in and close to one time to understand but its pretty much speed ball center flag format realy. Just multiple games in halves and with coaching and points. And the spectators can be involved. I like it! :)

BTW there was no cheating in the College X ball nor was there much evidence of any bad sportsmanship. I do not think that is a part of this game at that level.

[cledford]

Regarding the Xball penalties hurting the team that the penalty was susposed to help - I agree.

Paintball needs dynamic, fluid play to entice spectators. Currently the style of play is make a bunker, hunker, shoot till it looks clear, move on if you like - or "camp out" - it's your choice. Static play is often rewarded.

I propose a series of "yardage" lines that you must reach within an allotted period of time - say every 60 seconds. I.e. If during a 3 man there is a back player on his 5 yard line (from his goal) (and his team is on opposition), the mid player is on the 15, and the front player is on the 20 - everyone MUST move forward one increment of 5 yards by an audible alert. (have a warning 5 seconds before the deadline) once a player moves to a new line, he can move back to any previous line held before and move laterally, but no more then 5 additional yards forward before the next whistle. (also when the whistle blows he must make the next "yardage" line based on his previous forward progress - regardless of how far back he may have moved.)

By controlling, forcing, but limiting forward movement, people taken out (either by elimination or penalty) can't reenter and get right into the thick of it causing an unfair advantage. They would have to enter from the back of the field - so the maximum down field they could move for the first 90 seconds back in play would be 5 yards. This would limit their impact on the game and keep a penalty a penalty because they would always be behind not being able to move further then 5 yards per whistle.

It would be tough to enforce - but I think it would help the penalties carry much more weight and FORCE players to make regular, dynamic moves. This would keep the game moving (good for viewers) and also create an atmosphere where team moves could be anticipated, planned and executed.

-Calvin

[AGD]

Most of you will never play Xball so I don't see why there should be a big concern unless your interested in it as a spectator. Xball is not going to be the tourney of the future for everyone, just the upper crust teams.

AGD

[lopxtc]

I remember thinking the same thing about tourny ball back at the start of the 90's ... now its almost the standard form of play even for rec players. Granted this format is almost impossible to pull off for rec players, it is still something that will influence the direction of paintball even if you do or do not play it.

Aaron


Originally posted by AGD
Most of you will never play Xball so I don't see why there should be a big concern unless your interested in it as a spectator. Xball is not going to be the tourney of the future for everyone, just the upper crust teams.

AGD

[shartley]

Originally posted by AGD
Most of you will never play Xball so I don't see why there should be a big concern unless your interested in it as a spectator. Xball is not going to be the tourney of the future for everyone, just the upper crust teams.

AGD
And most of you will never play Professional Football either, so there should be no big concern unless you are interested in it as a spectator. The rules of the game, the officiating, and all other aspects of it should not be discussed, or be your concern what so ever. ;)

XBall may be an event slated for teams that earn their way to that format, but I don’t think more “elitism” is what the sport needs. I have seen WAY too much of that as it is.

I say, talk about it….. discuss it…. analyze it…. and be concerned about every aspect of this sport we have chosen to be a part of. It’s all good.

[Archangel Damien]

is there anyplace for people to read up on xball if so where would that be:confused:

[Jonno06]

I think X-Ball is a great idea,and has a pretty good format to boot. The cheating thing...I highly doubt anyone will cheat with 1 million people watching him..the audience is kinda like the ref...i think..(?)

[cledford]

Originally posted by AGD
Most of you will never play Xball so I don't see why there should be a big concern unless your interested in it as a spectator. Xball is not going to be the tourney of the future for everyone, just the upper crust teams.

AGD

Tom,

When I started this thread I was thinking about the very first conversation you and I had. It was at the little grill next door to Pev's Fairfax store. I asked you what paintball needed to grow and move forward into the next generation and you instantly replied a TV friendly format. I think Xball is a move in the right direction - but could use a little input from the paintball community. If we cook up something even better it could be AO ball :)

I just really feel that with the cheating that became readily apparent at the 'cup that the sport needs to move in a new direction. On the other hand I don't think a few need to dictate (like the guy from Diablo) to the many. I'd like to see it more refined with input from the community.

I don't think I'd be interested in watching a sport I couldn't play and can't really think of one out there that is popular if the average Joe can't get involved or play himself in some local "bush" league. Whatever format becomes the next paintball I hope it develops into something we can all play in the future. As far as the current format - unless the cheating and the so called pros are taken care of it's got a dubious future. I've seen so much discussion on the boards about the rampet cheating ( The Salm thing was good in the respect that it opened the door to frank discussion about the issue) and it boils into 2 catagories: 1)those people disgusted who no longer (or are thinking twice) about being involved, or 2)those who have no problem with it and accept it as an intergral part of the game - one which if not used forfits victory. With attitudes like that the current format is going to die, or become "sports enterainment" like wrestling.

-Calvin

[demonguy8]

Originally posted by cphilip
BTW there was no cheating in the College X ball nor was there much evidence of any bad sportsmanship. I do not think that is a part of this game at that level.

Thats why I only used the pros as an example and not my school or any of the others that attended for the cup :cool: (altho I was one of the people that couldnt afford to go :( ) The thing is we dont really have xball at our level, it was just a promotion. The only real level this is played on will be the pros, which if the nations cup is any indication, The PSP needs to tweak some penalties in an effort to make the pros a tad more "honest"

and on a semi related subject
There was talk about initiating an x-ball section of the NCPA which would be seperate from the rest of league but the idea hit the wall when it became apparent that without at the very least a paint sponser for EVERY TEAM that participated there would be no practical(read: affordable) way to impliment it.

[SilverFox]

I have yet to see X-Ball played but i can't wait. If fact I am even more eager for this format to expand from a pro only style to a local league type tournies. I WANT TO PLAY!!!!!

It seems to be a great concept.

[Pstan]

I certainly dont see anything wrong with discussing something...........I thought that was what we were here for. As for X-BALL..........I dont see why it deserves any sort of special "coddling".

And I'll tell you why........


Cause what the pros do so will the kiddies do at the local field. At the last scenario I played there were 3 incidents of "SALM SNIPERS". I saw one kid hiding in the bushes behind the Pro-Shop. That, by the way, was a no mask area and had he been fired upon, somebody could have been injured...........seriously. Now just where did he get that Einsteinian Idea? hmmmm..........I wonder? So, a discussion on how Pro Ball is played/organized/officiated is a valid endevour in my opinion as it pertains to what we'll all see on our home fields.

[AGD]

Calvin,

You know I agree with your ideas. Xball has a lot of hype that is making everyone crazy. This "crazyness" is an old idea in the industry that just so happens to recycle itself every few years once we forgot about the last episode.

1990 "paintball will be in the Olympics"
1992 "speedball with put us on TV"
1995 "we are playing on Disney property, we are IN!!"
1998 " ESPN is showing paintball, IT WILL BE HUGE!!"
2000 " airball will make the sport great for spectators"
2003 " We will get on TV because we have a SCOREBOARD!!"

The fact is that if you want to get on TV you have to buy your way in. Thats how drag racing did it along with many others. If you want to get serious about TV you don't ask paintball players, you ask Steven Spielberg. Imagine what th movie Jaws would have been like if you had fishermen write and film it....

AGD

[cledford]

Tom,

3 things.

First, you posted twice in a thread :D (there was a thread about this earlier today)

Second, thanks for replying.

Third, you're right. Now that you mention it - you mentioned that in Pittsburg. It made sense then and still does now. Sorry, I forgot. I just wish that there was something that could be done about everything that is going + get us on TV. Now I see why the Shanter thing is something you've worked so hard on. (And I thought it was just because you wanted to shoot Captain Kirk)

-Calvin

P.S. Thanks for releasing the pump stuff!

[athomas]

Originally posted by cledford
Regarding the Xball penalties hurting the team that the penalty was susposed to help - I agree.

Paintball needs dynamic, fluid play to entice spectators. Currently the style of play is make a bunker, hunker, shoot till it looks clear, move on if you like - or "camp out" - it's your choice. Static play is often rewarded.

I propose a series of "yardage" lines that you must reach within an allotted period of time - say every 60 seconds

Calvin

Interesting idea.

Penalties should give a team an advantage, but like any sport the team gaining the advantage has to learn to take advantage of the situation when it presents itself and possibly pull back when the penalty is over. Its awareness on the field that wins games.

The idea of yardage lines that at must be reached got me thinking. What if bunkers were given point values that were counted within the first minute and every 5 minutes after or some other time frame. The point values could be simple like, no points awarded for back bunkers, 1 point awarded for bunkers beyond 10 yard mark, 2 pts for 20 yd, 3 pts for 30 yd, etc. The farther bunker you had off the break the more points your team would earn for a longer period of time. Plus you would be encouraged to keep the opposing team out of key bunkers, plus (big plus) penalized players wouldn't be getting points for the team. The flag hang would have to be worth a significant value as well, after all its the main objective. After the last player of the opposing team is eliminated off the field (any player in the penalty box doesn't count), the flag hang is automatically awarded to the team with the remaining players. This would prevent a team sitting and doing nothing while the clock continued to run with them getting more points as they control the bunkers.

The tower judges would be used to count bunker points and to direct field judges to check infractions that may be missed.

What do you think? Interesting concept?

Maybe its too complicated. That is the beauty of the current X-ball format. Its simple. Only one objective. Get the flag.

[Thordic]

As a comparison, breakaways are MUCH more common in Hockey when a player is coming out of the penalty box than during normal play. Often the man coming out of the box will make an absolutely crushing hit on someone who forgot the guy was coming out. Is that rewarding the penalized team? NO! The penalty is over, they already were penalized. Its the other teams fault for not playing good defense and not paying attention.

If they forget about the man coming out of the box, and he takes a breakaway for a goal, that is THEIR fault for pressing too hard and not watching for the man coming out of the box, pure and simple.

[cphilip]

Penalties are only supposed to even the game back up to as if the infraction had not occured. Wether they do or not, that is their purpose. NOT to give a team an advantage. But rather to put it back even again as if the infraction had not occured. What happens after that is supposed to be decided by that players in play.

I certainly think indeed if the "Big Dogs" play it. EVERYONE who aspires to be a Big dog some day will emulate it and try and play it. I do not think it will only be played at the top levels because if they play it there then it just might catch on and then it will spread. We shall have to wait and see if that happens.

I do not think it, in of itself, will get us on TV. But if we did for some reason get on TV, it would be more spectator friendly.