Trigger

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

A couple of tech questions for those of you who know Mags inside and out, all referring to manual style with RT Valve (no electrics or traditional valve)....

Do you actually need distance between the sear pin and the trigger? It seems when you shoot, especially if you're finding the sweet spot on the XValve or RT Valve, you always have some pressure against the trigger. Does this cause or risk problems such as shootdown or the sear chipping the bolt? Would having something pulling on the trigger towards the grip frame or a spring or something pushing on the trigger from the front without enough force to actually move the trigger (ie pushing 1/4 the weight of the trigger pull) cause problems? I know trigger stops cause the trigger to be slightly depressed already which is where the problem is, but having something cut back on what you have to use to pull it could make the manuals be more like the E-triggers.

The pressure we're feeling when pulling the trigger is the pressure of the on/off pin trying to go into the on/off valve right? Or is the sear against the bolt contributing to it?

With the Hyperframe and such, what causes the bolt to be chipped? Is it the sear reseting before the spring starts pushing the bolt back into position or is it the sear not getting back in position quick enough for the next shot so only the corner of it is in front of the bolt? Elaboration on this functionality of Automags and how the problem is caused would be appreciated.

Finally, how is the limit to BPS built into the Intelliframe? I saw that posted somewhere that although the RT Valve can acheive 22bps the Intelliframe limits that due to an agreement among dealers. What exactly is it about the frame that does this?

I hope someone who loves Mags and is skilled with them can provide some elaborate answers to these tech questions. Thanks!

[Dayspring]

I'm afraid I can't SPECIFICALLY answer your questions how you want them answered. HOWEVER, I suggest running a search in the forums, you may find the answers you seek.

My guess about the I-Frame limit though is that the frame can pull only to the limit of the valve. So the valve would be the limiting factor if the person could shoot that fast.

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY

The pressure we're feeling when pulling the trigger is the pressure of the on/off pin trying to go into the on/off valve right? Or is the sear against the bolt contributing to it?

Finally, how is the limit to BPS built into the Intelliframe? I saw that posted somewhere that although the RT Valve can acheive 22bps the Intelliframe limits that due to an agreement among dealers. What exactly is it about the frame that does this?

Thanks!

I THINK I can answer the above questions...

That pressure is the air forcing the On/Off pin back down, yes. this was a side effect of the RT valve when it was in developement. They were going for a faster recharging valve, and the reactive Trigger was an bonus side effect. They perfected it by enlarging the top of the On/Off Pin.

The limit on BPS of the iFrame is built into the users' finger. ;) The iFrame is a MECHANICAL frame, there is NO way to limit the BPS. It will shoot as fast as you can pull it. In fact, the iFrame will most likely allow you the highest BPS of all the double trigger frames made for the Mag. Dealers have nothing to do with this. The RT valve has been tested at 30bps without shootdown (Thanks, Butters), but there is NO way any human could get over 10 or 12 with a mechanical trigger.

Someone correct me if I'm woring about any of this. :)

Later ~ Jonesie

[johnny dee]

actually i think i heard one of the guys i play with saying that bob long outshot his warpfeed which is like 21 pbs so i think it is possible to shoot more tan 10-12 pbs but its very unlikely, remember i said i think i heard this so i may not be accurate and the guy may have been exaggerating a little bit

[Darkling]

Yes, Bob is a beast, but Jonesie was saying it would be pretty hard to get over 10-12 on a mechanical trigger. Bob usually pulls about 18-20 with his timmy.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thanks for the info so far, one correction on the info I'm seeking. I am finding out why the trigger PULL is as hard as it is, not how hard it releases. The gas pushes the trigger out, true, because it is refilling the chamber, but I meant why is it so hard to pull the trigger in the first place (like in regular valves) and can it be reduced? How is it related to the gun and how far does the pin have to move to have the pull short but not cause problems? If this is illegible I apologize, it's the end of my workday after alot to do and the people at PNL tell me their delivery with my Intelliframe is not there for the third week. So bear with me. :(

[TheTramp]

The reason it is hard to pull the trigger is that you are pulling against the opperating pressure of the valve (around 400-450psi). The firm Mag trigger is one of those things that some people love (me) and some people hate (those with very weak fingers :D ).

There isn't a proven way to lighten the trigger pull. Some mfg. of after-market on/off parts have made the claim but no one has proven that these really lighten anything and there is proof that they can (not always) cause shoot-down. Of course none of these are for the Retro.

[jwren00]

i know for a fact that you can get way higher than 12 bps with the iframe. i have one on my rt, and if i put my input pressure up around 900 i can just apply very light pressure on it and it will shoot higher than 15 bps all by itself, and continue to do so until i pull my finger off the trigger. i get refs coming up to me all the time telling me to take my gun off full auto.
to make this work well i adjusted my trigger so that the sear pin is touching the trigger when it is gassed up, and the trigger needs to only move a miniscule amount before the bolt slips off and the gun is fired. you need an air system that can keep up with the insane rate of fire though, i have a nitro duck mega reg. try it out

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by jwren00
i know for a fact that you can get way higher than 12 bps with the iframe. i have one on my rt, and if i put my input pressure up around 900 i can just apply very light pressure on it and it will shoot higher than 15 bps all by itself, and continue to do so until i pull my finger off the trigger. i get refs coming up to me all the time telling me to take my gun off full auto.
to make this work well i adjusted my trigger so that the sear pin is touching the trigger when it is gassed up, and the trigger needs to only move a miniscule amount before the bolt slips off and the gun is fired. you need an air system that can keep up with the insane rate of fire though, i have a nitro duck mega reg. try it out

There are two things wrong with this post. :)

#1 - The 'Full Auto' you are describing with the RT is called 'Run Away' and the Ref has every right to make you stop. It's quite illegal MOST places. :eek:

#2 - Sounds like you adjusted you're trigger rod from factory specs. That is a Cardinal Sin in the Order of the Mag. ;)

[jwren00]

i know its called runaway mode, but that's beside the point. I was merely trying to illustrate a way to achieve really high bps with the iframe.

and why is it a sin to adjust one's trigger?

i'm pretty sure there isn't anything "wrong" with my post...

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Runaway is not really a mode, it's a symptom of a broken gun. Mags are not designed to function like that and require pressure to build up when the pin and oring seal. What is going on with yours is that it's incorrectly tuned and adjusted.
The reason it's a "sin" is not because it's looked on negatively but that most people who adjust it end up with malfunctioning guns or ones that damage internal parts like the sear. Yours is "technically" malfunctioning and just because it seem great now, don't be suprised once it's worn in you get leaks and stuff. Adjusting the trigger rod is more trouble than it's worth.
If the sear is only catching the edge of the bolt you can end up with a chipped bolt and one that the sear is not securely holding. That's a safety issue too. If your gun gets bumped in the staging area, even with the safety on it could cause the sear to drop, releasing the bolt and shooting a ball. If that happens you'll get kicked out of the place for being a safety risk and I don't blame them. Safety is a key issue for fields and one accident could close them.
As for runaway mode, darn right it's illegal in most fields. Again, safety issue. Having people hold down the trigger and just swinging their gun around is dangerous (point blank shots, ref shots, etc) and accidental fires are too common. One pull, one shot is the almost universal rule. Some companies make that pull as light and short as possible but it's still the limit to make the game fair and safe. In any tourney and any rec field with a competent staff and good rules, this type of fire is banned and if a ref believes it is happening they will test the gun and disallow its use, it's almost as bad as shooting way too hot (340fps+) because of its safety issues. It's illegal for tourneys and good rec fields because it gives an unfair advantage that's not based on skill. It's blitzkrieg and the point where the line is stepped over.
AGD know what they're doing, they really focus on quality and their factory specs are done by an airsmith and the only people that should fine tune it is an AGD certified airsmith.

[athomas]

The pressure felt by the trigger is a combination of two components. First being the on/off pin. The second being the sear.

The on/off pin on a RT/retro valve has a small pin with a large top. When the valve is at rest the pressure in the chamber at around 350 - 400 psi pushes the pin out using pressure based on the diameter of the small pin. This keeps the trigger force as small as it can be without compromising the strength of the pin. When the trigger is pressed pushing the pin up into the valve the larger top section of the pin seals off the hole that actually fills the chamber. As the chamber empties, the regulator opens and full input pressure is applied to the top of the larger section of the on/off pin. Its this larger pressure applied to the larger diameter that results in the higher return trigger force and the rt effect.

The sear holds back the bolt. The force on the bolt pushing against the sear is a result of the 350 - 400 psi in the chamber pushing on the bolt stem. This force on the sear when transmitted to the trigger can be quite high, especially in pre level 10 valves. This is because the sear pull is sideways friction, plus the angle of the sear may cause a slight push back on the bolt itself in some mags.

The combination of the two forces gives you the trigger force required to fire the gun and the return force you feel after you fire the gun. You can alter the force by providing a forced assist such as a preloaded spring doing some of the work.

The trigger to rod spacing is to make sure any unseen tolerance issues don't force your gun to not fire. If your gun has the trigger rod tightened against the trigger rod, it may fire purfectly and be very crisp and responsive until you accidently bump the grip on a bunker and change the tolerances within the gun. Or the valve moves a slight bit within the body because of slight slop in the mounting screws. That being said, you can reduce the trigger to rod distance if you are willing to take the chance. In most instances it will work very nice. But like any high performance machine, the closer you get to the edge of performance, the more issues you have to be aware of.

Trigger stops are nice if done correctly. They prevent you from wasting time and pressure pulling the trigger past the firing point of the gun. If you put one on your gun make sure you adjust it so that it stops the trigger behind the firing point. Give a little extra distance to ensure firing on every pull.

The sear wear problem in the hyperframe is due to the short duration of the solenoid actuation and the position of the sear. The sear bairly holds the bolt (just by the tip). The shorter actuation means the bolt rides on the sear causing premature wear. Apparently these issues have been addressed by centerflag. An RT in runnaway mode has the same effect and it will wear the sear prematurely.

An intelliframe is a nice frame and is only limited by the rate at which you can pull the mechanical trigger.

Hopefully this helps.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

WOW. Thank you athomas that was exactly the level of info I was looking for. And I think you touched on exactly what I was thinking. Can you just clarify something on the stop? You said behind the firing point. Do you mean make sure it stops it a little ways before the firing point? Like where I'm starting to pull the trigger but it hasn't fired yet? Does doing this risk any wear on the sear for holding the bolt by the tip a little more? Would I need to shorten the sear pin just slightly to compensate for this? Does having it slightly depressed with the stop cause velocity dropoff or anything with the RT Valve? Like I said, I want to just cut the stroke a little but not go so close to the edge I risk repeat problems. Would polishing the sear edge a little bit help with the friction against the bolt and prevent scratching the bolt? I don't mean polish it down and reduce it, just smooth any rough edges.

Your input is really helpful man, thank you, As I said I'm just trying to do a little fine tuning to make the Mag rip more than it already does. I hate runaway but a shorter, easier pull and higher ROF would be just the think to make an Angel-owner cringe :D

[athomas]

The trigger stop should be set so that as you pull the trigger, the gun fires, and then if you continue to pull the trigger it makes contact with the trigger stop. Any further movement at this point would be a waste of energy. That is what the trigger stop is for. The on/off pin and sear is preset so that the air is shut off to the chamber and then the sear releases the bolt. No further movement is needed. No modification should be made to the on/off pin or the sear. They are pretimed for optimum performance. Polishing the sear is ok if you don't alter the shape, just remove burrs or roughness.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Oh, the stop goes behind the trigger so that once it's fired it can't go any further? I thought it went in front so when the trigger is released it reset only as far as it needed to, still keeping some pressure on the sear. What would be the ramifications of doing one in back to stop the pull once it had fired as you suggested and another in front so when it is resetting it has enough room to open and let air in but still press against it so it has tension from the start? It might require more input pressure but could work and result in a really short pull. The RT's recovery rate is the issue but since it can get up to 22bps normally and most people would still not get above 15-16, it could work. Ideas?

[jwren00]

ummmmmmm, my gun isn't broken... and my trigger has been set like this for two years, and the LX bolt and the sear are in great condition, i think you just need to let other people play with their guns and not get mad at them, i dont care what you think about how my trigger is set...

[athomas]

Putting a trigger stop in front of the trigger to prevent forward movement is not a good thing. You can stop the trigger from going forward but you have to make sure the trigger rod is fully forward at that point. You cannot maintain tension on the trigger rod. This would be the same as short stroking your mag. It would not fully open the on/off pin and the sear would not fully engage, which would cause premature wear.

[Dayspring]

Runaway is a malfunction. A purposeful one. You can choose to make it happen or not.

As for us caring? Where did you get that impression? :rolleyes:


Originally posted by jwren00
ummmmmmm, my gun isn't broken... and my trigger has been set like this for two years, and the LX bolt and the sear are in great condition, i think you just need to let other people play with their guns and not get mad at them, i dont care what you think about how my trigger is set...

[Skeetmaster]

greetings from across the pond!
Quincy: I have forward and rear travel stopscrews on my Intelli RT.
The trigger pull is about 1-2mm. I have a sound file of me pulling 15bps, NOT run away, the RT was running just under 700psi at the time. I also drew up a diagram for a fellow yank, which you are welcome to.
However, it is very important not to infringe on the normal operation too much, as has been mentioned. a very small amount of maintained preassure is acceptable, it may cause premature wear, but as mentioned a new sear and bolt is cheaper than one of those poxy Angel things!!!
Rear travel should be reduced to the absolute minimum necessary for the marker to cycle correctly. The RT valve is capable of 26 bps, so you wont get shoot down. As for "holding down the trigger" this is a missconception as the RT response pushes the trigger back, finger preassure then fires the marker again. I can still fire my marker one shot at a time if required.
Email me if you areinterested in the files.
Gaz

[jwren00]

exactly...

i use my rt only for senario games and woods ball, alamo and things of that nature, and i employ runaway mode to its fullest extent in an effort to keep people away from the base. you see i am still pulling my finger back for every single shot, the reactiveness is just doing the work in returning it forward after each shot, which is cheating, so i dont normally use my rt when i am playing in a regular game such as capture the flag or hyperball or anything like that...

[la690]

you guys know a lot. care to check my thread out and try to help me? http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64687
thanks