Paintball prank spurs crusade

[GeoffreyInNJ]

This article is taken from the Saturday 1/18/03 edition of the Daily Record. It is local newspaper here in Morris County NJ.

The link to the article can be found here.
http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/03/01/18/news5-paintball.htm

Paintball prank spurs crusade
By Pamela Isaacson, Daily Record

A few inches and Tom Sullivan could be blind.

With his window rolled down, Sullivan was driving on Harter Road on Dec. 26 when he felt a whack near the back of his head.

Because of the snowfall on Christmas Day, he assumed it was an ice ball.

He was wrong.

A paintball had been shot into his car from a nearby yard. It splattered white paint over the driver's seat and the back of his jacket and left Sullivan angry.

So angry that he chased the juveniles and called police.

So angry that he's contacted legislators about placing tighter restrictions on paintball guns. One New Jersey congressman said he has begun looking into the possibility of new paintball gun regulations.

"I am absolutely furious," said Sullivan, a councilman in Clinton Township. "Parents need to be sent a message that if you are going to provide your underage juveniles with these types of weapons, they need some control over them."

Current regulations say that juveniles can possess paintball guns, but only people over the age of 18 can buy them. However, there are no restriction on children purchasing parts for the gun, and anyone can purchase the actual paintball, a thin-skinned gelatin capsule with non-toxic colored liquid inside it, or a cartridge or tank refill, according to Mike Moore, manager of Paintball Depot in West Milford.

Sullivan is legally blind in his left eye. He sees shadows but little else. He said that if the paintball had hit about three inches higher, he could have lost sight in his right eye, as well.

"If something happened to my other eye, which was a great possibility that night, I could be blind right now," Sullivan said.

"I'm not looking to bust these parents, but we need people to know these guns are dangerous."

Eye protection is insisted upon at regulated paintball game parks, where teens and adults can join teams to play a capture-the-flag type of game with paintball guns.

At Paintball Depot, which operates a game park in West Milford, goggles are not only required, but also monitored by game referees.

"That's our major rule," said Moore. "If you take them off once, the referee marks your wristband. If it's twice, you're done."

Moore said that when used properly, paintball is a safe and fun sport that attracts people of all ages. He said a busy weekend at the game park, usually in the fall or spring, means 200 to 300 people are playing.

Paintball guns, or markers, run on either a cartridge or a tank of carbon dioxide or compressed air.

Make it inoperable

Sullivan said his son owns a paintball gun, but Sullivan has removed the carbon dioxide tank to make it inoperable.

"It's as simple as turning a light bulb and it renders the gun harmless," Sullivan said.

"He can have the gun in his room, but he can't shoot it. All of the mothers and fathers who bought guns for Christmas don't know that."

Sullivan said all parents should be held accountable if their underage children have access to what he considers a potential deadly weapon.

Morris Township Detective Kevin O'Shea said he was one of the officers on the scene after Sullivan called to report the incident.

Followed footprints

O'Shea said officers followed the juveniles' footprints in the snow through backyards and a golf course until the steps led to the boys' home.

"The parents had no idea the boys were out," O'Shea said, "but there were the dripping wet shoes and two paintball guns covered with snow on the back deck."

In New Jersey, paintball guns are classified as weapons instead of the more serious firearm classification.

"Under the statute, a slingshot could be a weapon," O'Shea said. "But, to look at this thing if somebody pointed it at you, you would think it's a gun."

O'Shea said the juveniles were charged with possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose and criminal mischief, lesser offenses than if the juveniles were using firearms.

"I think they should be treated the same as firearms because of all the trouble we're having," O'Shea said, adding that there are at least a dozen paintball guns in the police department's evidence room.

Unlawful purpose

Sullivan said he's approached local, state and federal politicians about legislation that would better control the use of paintball guns for an unlawful purpose.

U.S. Rep. Mike Ferguson, R-Hunterdon, said he's using his resources to determine the possibility of federal legislation.

"We're going to be working on different levels of elected officials to investigate and look into what might be appropriate in terms of helping to safeguard people from youngsters who might not take the responsibility of operating a paintball gun as seriously as they need to," Ferguson said.

"At the end of the day, it's probably something that is more appropriately addressed at the state or local level, but it's not to say we in Congress shouldn't have a role or a responsibility to work with state, local and county officials to see what the best course of action is."

According to the New Jersey Legislature Web site, there haven't been any bills proposed concerning paintball guns.

Sullivan said he's willing to go as far as necessary to make sure parents are held responsible if their children operate paintball guns in a dangerous manner.

But, even without legislation, Sullivan said he wants to educate parents.

"They need to know how easy it is to dismantle," he said. "Parents need to know what they can do."


Pamela Isaacson can be reached at pisaacson@gannett.com or (973) 267-8937.

[Ultimator]

Wow. Pretty soon we will have to have a firearms license to play paintball. Actually that's not a bad idea ... even though it isn't realistic. Maybe they should raise the minimum playing age to 13 or 14? I don't see that helping a whole lot though.

We have to be 17 or older to buy paintballs from stores here. At our local shop anyone can, but anyone educated enough to find a paintball shop and play there, I don't think, would resort to doing this.

[EsPo]

wow, ive never read about someone so stupid in my entire life. these are the kind of people who give paintball a bad name, and need to be taught a lesson.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by Ultimator
Maybe they should raise the minimum playing age to 13 or 14? I don't see that helping a whole lot though.


I think eliminating Young guns would increase the problem instead of solving it. In Vernal Utah we built a free entry BYOP field, and the vandalism problem went way down.

[shartley]

Kids and their parents should be held accountable for these types of actions. My kids NEVER have access to our markers without me being there, or giving them direct permission.

I also teach my kids to be responsible. And REAL responsibility for actions need to be taken.

The only thing that I can say however, is that this type of thing could happen with everything from snowballs, pellet guns, and a whole bunch of other things. I don’t really think MORE laws need to be made, I think current laws need to be enforced. And I would bet that this type of activity is already covered in that state’s assault laws already.

Folks most definitely need to be educated, and hold them accountable for their actions (or the actions of their children), but I don’t agree that more legislation is required. The only problem I can really see with this, is by trying to get additional legislation, it is a knee jerk reaction because the man was upset at what happened. Again, I think if he calms down (although it IS a serious issue) he would find that there are current laws already on the books that would cover this type of assault, and provides appropriate punishment for it.

ANYTHING can be used as a weapon. But do we need to run out and pass more legislation every time something happens? No. Again, current laws cover all forms of assault. USE THEM.

[tazman]

I have to agree with you Shantely. My son Never Touches any of my paintball guns when I have them out with asking. Then when I go to test them he always tells me "Dad where are your googles and or Mom says no playing paintball in the house"

Some of the problem with stuff like this is the media's bad portraly of paintball. I have thought long and hard about how to stop this and I think that I have finially come up with something.

What If the paintball manufactures ( airgun, worrgames, tippmann, etc,etc) sued the movie and tv industry for misreppresentation for the sport?? I think this might work. And as how to solve the vandelisum with paintball stuff I like what the apg's ezine is doing where they publish the names of anyone who has been misusing paintball. Anyone else have any ideas?

[GeoffreyInNJ]

How about just some parental responsibility and enforcing existing laws, rather than going to scumbag lawyers just looking to make a buck off a settlement?

If someone hit someone with a baseball bat, it would be assault with a weapon, no? You don't sue the makers of movies like CASINO where you see people beaten to death with baseball bats.

The authorities should just confiscate the guns, charge the little punks with assault and punish them to the fullest extent of the law. I'm aware the penalty won't be that harsh, especially for minors and a first offense, but a little community service and a fine never hurt anyone.

Then do YOUR best to show the game in a positive light to the uneducated masses.

[FutureMagOwner]

i dont see what the problem is if they do not hinder the people who play properly i think the article was accualy well written it is much better than others where they say its a war game of blood lust or some bull crock like that

[HoppysMag]

as long as it doesnt get taken too far, i think most of what hes saying is a good idea... hes just trying to cut down on vadalism, not ownership of markers.


If someone hit someone with a baseball bat, it would be assault with a weapon, no?

actualy yes it is... if i stab you witha spoon its assualt with a deadly weapon... heck i could beat you witha rainbow trout and thats probibly considered a deadly weapon.


i have all my markers and all paintball stuff at my disposal. it has been made clear that any miss use of said equipment ( including my 3 bb guns, compound bow, or any of my knives) would result in total *** kicking on behalf of my father. but theres a greater reason i dont abuse my markers and such, that is the love of the game. i dont want to see it get any bad rap, so i do my best to stop my friends from doing bad stuff to. and when people ask me what kinda marker to get and i think they will just endup using it for vandalism, i dont say anything.

[BajaBoy]

im about 30 mins away from that paintball depot. they let me buy anything at the age of 15. In fact my old friend in 6th grade bought a tippmenn from there and he was maybe 13? 12? im not even sure. but there is alota bad about paintball in this town. only thing people care about is haven enouph money to get paintballs.

ive seen people shooting houses myself. it was 3-4 years ago so i thought nothing of it, otherwise i would have said something. But i myself have Never doen bad with a gun

[*ArKfEaR*]

Kids are so stupid. Period.

I wouldnt of think of playing a game in my back yard. I have shot my gun at targets after i installed a new part or what not. But never played a game, feilds are the only way to go. Well at least Paintball Depot my main feild gets a little spotlight in the public. I know the owner so i guess thats cool at least.

[cheetah256]

Originally posted by HoppysMag


heck i could beat you witha rainbow trout and thats probibly considered a deadly weapon.




i don't know why, but that seems hilarious to me...

[Bigzamboni]

Referring to the guy playing in the picture as being a "victim" doesn't help much. Also many other terms used don't either. Being that that is the newspaper my family gets, I am likely going to write a letter to the editor.

[darklord]

This is a travesty. One thing that caught my eye was that "paintballs can be purchased by anyone", which is not true, at least in my area... you need to be 18 to purchase paintballs or get air.

The problem as I see it is, kids are always going to be able to get their hands on a paintball gun. Whether they choose to use it responsibly or not is up to them. If something has to be done, like educating parents about how to handle their child owning a paintball marker. Other than that I'm going to have to agree with GeoffreyinNJ's second post. If I got shot by someone, I wouldn't necessarily go out and sue Smith & Wesson for the damages.

[Jonno06]

I am only 16,and I have only been playing for 2 years,but i would NEVER do anything like that.And if I knew someone who did,I would totally kick their ***.I hate when people get the name of Paintball in trouble by acting like complete idiots.

[1stdeadeye]

These kids need a serious attitude readjustment by their fathers. Preferably in the woodshed!

Dummies like these are the reason people look down on our sport.

[cledford]

I think we should blame Brass Eagle - period. I have heard so many horror stories from my girl-friend (here friends knwo I play)and personally just since Xmas about stupid things that parents are allowing with paintball guns that I don't even get phased anymore.

It used to be that to buy paint, air or guns you had to walk into a paintball store with a vested interest in seeing a parent educated about eye safey and the guns. Now with JT, Brass Eagle, and Tippmann stuff avalable in every local Walmart, Kmart, Galyan's and Sports Authority - with no real training for the sales reps (who don't care about the sport anyhow) parent are buying these things "off the shelf" with no word of warning. I've got at least 2-3 people a week since Xmas who approach me at work (they know I play) and ask if it's safe if their kids "play out back" (unsupervised) and if goggles are really necessary. (They, in almost every case skimp on the goggles) I even had one person tell that it "wasn't that dangerous" because she made here son turn his marker down before going out to play.

Go figure.

-Calvin

[halB]

**poof** YOU KNOW BETTER!! AGD , and ignorant ones at that.

im 16 years old, i work in paintball, im also an amateur airsmith. i mean, i have NO trouble getting anything, i just buy it from my boss. but this is bull****. ok, heres where i stand

1) YES an adult should buy the paintgun, i dont think 10 year olds should be able to buy one
2) YES, the parenst should be RESPONSIBLE!!! in the incident in this article, the parents should have been charged with felony assault with a deadly weapon. tough? yes, but a parent should know about their childs whereabouts, especially where their paintball gun is.
3)NO, do not restrict a kids ability to get paintballs or parts or refills!! think about it, if a 12 year old kid goes to kmart to get paintballs, his dad probably drove him there. all your doing is pissing off the parents. the parents already bought them the damn gun, so why make them keep on going though crap?

god i hope that guy dies

[845]

If its such a problem the state should build a BYOP free firld as stated above. We really dont have that problem around me. There is always going to be some turd who has to go shoot up a sign, but he could do that just as easily with spray paint. You dont need a license to possess spray paint. Also this Sullivan guy is going on this crusade without knowing what he is doing. It is like trying to get golf banned because someone hit you with a golf ball. And you son owns golf clubs so that makes you a professor golf. Kids are immature and it is mainly other kids jobs to make sure they dont do stuff like that. I constantly have to tell the kids at my school that shooting cars/houses/etc is moronic.


Woh this is long.

[Emagster]

they is always the few people that will take everything to far. give um an inch and the take a mile. no matter how many people that are around that can actually be resposible with a paintball gun, people only see the people that misuse them.

[Automaggin2]

You people gotta stop complaining about how its giving the "sport" a bad name. who cares! every sport gets a bad name. football gets a bad name cause kids die or get paralyzed while playing it! and hockey, many see all the fights on TV and say hockey is all fighting.

everyone has to remember, there are always gonna be a idiots in life, just deal with it.

[SHAG]

Hi,

Paintball in NJ is screwed period. Liberals in this state love and wait for this stuff to happen. Some on here remember what happened a few years ago when Paintball made the New York news. Several people went about and shot a number of people with a paint gun in the Wayne area. Some cops got up and made a cry about this saying it was wrong and there should have something done.

This time it's different. A politican was named. when politicans get involved generally something happens, eventually.

Look at it this way. If paintball became regulated in NJ, alot of things would change. Stores would have to file paperwork on all marker transactions. Living in this state, I am sure the state would like some more cash by the way of transaction fees on each marker. That would hamper those in the state selling markers via the Internet. Paintballers would have to pay for a firearms ID card. At which point you have restricted those under 18. So anyone under 18 could not carry a marker. That's basically killing off alot of the honest playing population of that age group. Eventually, someone will factor in the number of fields we have in the state. So some how the state will figure something to charge them. Who knows NJ paintballers might have a "waiting period" for a marker! That borders rediculous for the average weekend warrior in this state.

So really there is money to be made.

Also to make another point, for years lawmakers thought of trying to catgorize paintball as a firearm sport.

In short, Paintball will be mired in red tape and beauracy for several "special" individuals. However, if the state of NJ made sensible laws (NJers insert chuckle here) something along the lines 18 or older to purchase and/or to play it might change things a little bit. It may hurt the younger player but allow a better less red tape approach to the matter. But as the old adage goes, only time will tell. NJers so band together if something does happen from all this, get our collective tails together, and fight it.


Now onto the second part, the mega sports stores and mega super stores like Wal mart are some responsible. Paintball explosive rise in popularity allowed these stores to gain access to the product and sell it. It's America and it's pretty much allowed. However, these same stores should stick to the basic sports and that s it. Seriously would you buy SCUBA equipment from Wal Mart? How come Wal mart does sell skateboard items? Sports Authority is the same boat. Stick to selling baseballs and basketballs. Leave the shooting sports to the outdoor stores or to those .

I was in Walmart the other day. I saw a BE Stingray with goggles, hopper and paint for 80 bucks. You get a 25 pack of CO2 for 12 bucks. So for about 90 bucks you get to cuase mischief and headaches for the 99 percent of us who are legit.

In short, Paintball will be mired in red tape and beauracy for several "special" individuals. However, if the state of NJ made sensible laws (NJers insert chuckle here) something along the lines 18 or older to purchase and/or to play it might change things a little bit. It may hurt the younger player but allow a better less red tape approach to the matter. But as the old adage goes, only time will tell. NJers so band together if something does happen from all this, get our collective tails together, and fight it.

Later,
Alan

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by Automaggin2
You people gotta stop complaining about how its giving the "sport" a bad name. who cares! every sport gets a bad name. football gets a bad name cause kids die or get paralyzed while playing it! and hockey, many see all the fights on TV and say hockey is all fighting.

everyone has to remember, there are always gonna be a idiots in life, just deal with it.

Hopefully you are the only person with that attitude else wise paintballs screwed for good... the differanc between paintball and football is the word GUN. you add gun infront of anything and some pissed off parent will start complaining.then add in the idotic youth ( that i reluctantly am a part of) of america ( god bless it, and shallow out the gene pool while your at it)that think bringing pain to others some how can make thier little shriveled manhood grow and sprout some balls, cause frankly your a big man shooting at people that are defenceless, un aware, and all out freaked after getting hit and you have to speed away in a car afterwards... i garrentee you if anyone ever shot me in a drive by paintballing i would personaly kill them on the spot.

we will see who cares when we cant play paintball anymore... oh and last time i checked kids wernt doing drive by puntings, or taking slap shots at houses.

[Automaggin2]

Im just stating my opinion, i mean some people flip out when someones dog gets shot and it makes it into the local newpaper in the section no one looks at. Like i said, people do stupid stuff, just ignore it. Its New Jersey, everything and anything is either illegal or regulated in this state, its just a matter of time before paintball gets regulated. Hell, i cant even ride a quad 2 feet from my house without gettin a damn ticket.

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by Automaggin2
Im just stating my opinion, i mean some people flip out when someones dog gets shot and it makes it into the local newpaper in the section no one looks at. Like i said, people do stupid stuff, just ignore it. Its New Jersey, everything and anything is either illegal or regulated in this state, its just a matter of time before paintball gets regulated. Hell, i cant even ride a quad 2 feet from my house without gettin a damn ticket.

hell if you shot my dog you wouldnt make it up the street with out atleast 10 or 20 pellets of buck shot in you....

if you ignore the stupid stuff it only gets worse... wanna know why you cant ride your quad? cause some one did something stupid and got killed, and nobody stopped them because "it doesnt matter"

[IAMJaws]

This to me is so-so article to me.

I don't agree with the proposed legal initatives, but informing parents of the basic saftey and operation of equipment I can certainly agree with that, Ignorance is far from bliss.

I think there needs to be more outreach to parents from the industry.

[mag-hatter]

paintball guns cause pain as flies cause garbage :rolleyes:

are they going to ban snowball fights or baseball bats? those cause pain as well.

[IAMJaws]

paintball guns cause pain as flies cause garbage

are they going to ban snowball fights or baseball bats? those cause pain as well.

you know hat every time sonthing like this comes up I hear that anology. Problem is that I only ever hear that on paintball forums, mags, etc. but never are these points made anywhere else. Every time one of these incidents happen there should be some one from the industry should be screaming (and I mean Screaming) Bloody Murder over this kind of thing.

that's all I got....

[einhander619]

We've all seen this before, and it's fairly obvious paintball is screwed. So everyone, on the day that paintball is made illegal everywhere, bunker a liberal.

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by shartley
Kids and their parents should be held accountable for these types of actions....

The only thing that I can say however, is that this type of thing could happen with everything from snowballs, pellet guns, and a whole bunch of other things. I don’t really think MORE laws need to be made, I think current laws need to be enforced. And I would bet that this type of activity is already covered in that state’s assault laws already....

ANYTHING can be used as a weapon. But do we need to run out and pass more legislation every time something happens? No. Again, current laws cover all forms of assault. USE THEM.

Oh so totally hit the nail on the head! Today's society is absolutely blameless - responsibility is always passed on to TV, Teacher and the Government - when will people stop and take responsibility for their own actions and that of their children?

The problem with "knee-jerk" reactions are that they are just that - ill prepared and often overstated remedies to issues that don't exists. Banning markers from children is like banning firearms - it isn't the responsible owners that need to be restricted, it is the criminals (YES DAMNIT - THESE ARE CRIMINALS) that need to be held accountable!

Again, just my 3:44am $0.02.

~Fred

[Smitty2k1]

I hate people.

[Tack]

The big problem with this type of vandalism and assault is usually it is don by kids without supervision by adults. Many times this lack of supervision is not because the kids sneak out in the dead of night but because the parents are more caught up in their own lives instead of caring about their children. That is why I feel the parents should be held responsible for the actions of their children. If a child leaves your house with his/her paintball gun, it should be the parent’s responsibility to find out where they are going, who they will be with, and why they have the paintball gun. If a parent doesn’t care what their child is doing it is just as bad as no parent at all. Should a parent be charged with assault if their child shoots someone on the street with a paintball? NO. Should they be forced to pay any medical bills, vehicle repair bills, and perhaps a fine? YES.

Also, I’m not sure who stated this and I’m too lazy to go back and search for it, but I don’t think that limiting the ownership, or not allowing kids to carry their paintball markers with them will kill the sport. Here is my suggestion. If it becomes a law that children under 18 cannot own, or carry a paintball gun in a vehicle or in public outside of a valid paintball field then why not leave the markers at the field. Lockers, or some other type of set up could be made or installed at each local field where underage players may keep their gear. Parents must be with the kids when they pick out their equipment, all equipment must stay at the field, When parents drop their kids off for a day of paintball the field will follow the regulations requiring adult supervision of children at all times while they are handling the equipment. After a day of play the kids can clean up their gear at the field, and lock it up in a designated locker.

Just a thought.

[painball]

I think its just those little 10 year olds who drool over Talons and Blades at Walmart and never actually play with them. I have heard of a bunch of kids my age (14) behaving inapropriatley(sp?). I never shoot my gun at other people and if some dumb kid doesn't wear it he's out. Even my friends today are a bunch of dicks with their guns and think their all big and bad. Going around and pointing it at someone in the head without their mask on is bad even if the safety is on.

It's just that "Jackass" society today thats seeming to cause all this havoc. Kids see Johnny Knoxville do something stupid on TV and it only urges them to go out and be jackasses. People are starting to not care about others and I doubt kids would care about how much we love our sport. The bottomline is people are just jackasses and don't care.

I hope that made any sence. o.0

[Blazingace]

Here we go again. Lets punish all the legally owned and used PB guns because a couple stupid kids ruin it for everyone else. As for calling a a deadly "weapon", that is BS. A rubber band and a paper clip can be a deadly "weapon" if used as such. Of course we all know that cars are deadly "weapons" too.

[theraidenproject]

Does paintball have a lobby group? I am against the concept of lobby groups, but unfortunatly they are necessary, since politicians have stopped serving people, and brown-nosing to big business (cough DMCA cough). Just think, with however many people play paintball a year giving a $5-per-visit, mandatory donation at fields and industry donations would get us one hell of a paintball lobby. If that's a litle broad, maybe NJ needs a player association to prevent anti-paintball legislation.

[halB]

Originally posted by theraidenproject
Does paintball have a lobby group? I am against the concept of lobby groups, but unfortunatly they are necessary, since politicians have stopped serving people, and brown-nosing to big business (cough DMCA cough). Just think, with however many people play paintball a year giving a $5-per-visit, mandatory donation at fields and industry donations would get us one hell of a paintball lobby. If that's a litle broad, maybe NJ needs a player association to prevent anti-paintball legislation. yes, but its sad and pathetic

[raehl]

I'm working on it (www.paintball-players.org) and hopefully we'll be up and running soon.

What we need:

1) No sales of paintball markers to people under 18.
2) No sales of paintballs to people under 18.
3) A significant fine to any retailer who does sell either of the above products to players under 18.
4) A moratoreum on the production of full-auto paintball markers, esp. as these are getting less and less expensive.
5) Industry self-regulation, including a standard sheet of information included in every paintball marker and with every case of paint sold. This sheet shoud emphasize the safety equipment requirements and legal consequences of using a paintball marker inappropriately. Kids *ARE* dumb, and you need to tell them that they're committing assault if they shoot someone with a marker because some just won't realize it.



Now, somewhat unrelated question:

Would you pay $40/year to support an organization that lobbied on behalf of paintball players?


- Chris

[theraidenproject]

Originally posted by raehl
Would you pay $40/year to support an organization that lobbied on behalf of paintball players?

Yes. I think a mandatory "donation" at fields would be better, like a visit to a museum is free, except for a small suggested (read: mandatory) donation. That way, Joe Six-Pack, who mostly plays with a few buddies on some land and only gets to a field a couple times a year, doesn't feel like he's shelling out money for nothing. I think you might end up with more money this way.

Originally posted by raehl
1) No sales of paintball markers to people under 18.
2) No sales of paintballs to people under 18.
Wait. Nevermind. Why would I PAY for my rights to be taken away? How about a paintball license for those under 18? It keeps markers out of the hands of vandals, and real enthusiats under 18 wouldn't mind. Perhaps a database, in addition to a physical photo license, that stores can look up. I would rather go through the hassle of that, than to have blanket bans.

[raehl]

Implementation of such a system is next to impossible and would be horrendously expensive - it doesn't make sense to charge $50 for a license to buy a $100 (or even $30) marker when a parent can simply make the purchase.

IF you can't get your parent to purchase your equipment for you, you shouldn't have it, period. The inconvenience and cost of supplying licenses to the under-18 purchaser would far outweigh the inconvenience and cost of involving parents in the purchase. Parents NEED to be involved in the purchase.


- Chris

[theraidenproject]

Originally posted by raehl
Implementation of such a system is next to impossible and would be horrendously expensive - it doesn't make sense to charge $50 for a license to buy a $100 (or even $30) marker when a parent can simply make the purchase.

IF you can't get your parent to purchase your equipment for you, you shouldn't have it, period. The inconvenience and cost of supplying licenses to the under-18 purchaser would far outweigh the inconvenience and cost of involving parents in the purchase. Parents NEED to be involved in the purchase.


- Chris
I'm just thinking out loud here, I'm sure you've thought about most of the ideas I could come up with about this. If you're 15-17, though, (depending on the state) and have a license/permit, you have the privledge to drive yourself to a paintball store, but not the privledge to buy a new marker or a case of paint without a parent there? That is absurd. I would add more, and back this up better, but it's 1:47am, and I"m falling asleep.

[raehl]

There's several points to consider here.

- A teenager has received explicit permission from their parents to have a drivers license.
- A teenager has gone through extensive training and a certification process to obtain the license.
- The teenager is most likely legally required to be insured in the event that they cause anyone injury while operating the vehicle
- There is a system for enforcing the proper use of automobiles and revoking the licenses of those who do not use them properly.
- You can't own a car if you're under 18.
- If said teenager does injure someone with their vehicle, no one is going to try and outlaw automobiles.


Now, if you want all of those things to be true in order to buy and use a paintball marker, then I would say it would be acceptable for 15-17 year olds to buy them without a parent present.


- Chris

[Thordic]

I think the way this guy is going about this is a lot better than it could have been.

This guy isn't screaming "Ban paintball!" or anything like that, he is asking for parents of kids with paintball guns to be more responsible. If kids are going to be that stupid, then maybe a law is needed. Because I'll tell you right now that everyone who owns a gun, especially younger players, are NOT going to police themselves no matter how much you wish they would, and if they are allowed to continue to cause havoc then paintball WILL face stronger legislation.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The car analogy is a good one, if you can get a license, car, insurance, and everything when you're under 18 without your parents ever knowing that would be quite an accomplishment, I agree people under 18 shouldn't be BUYING paintball gear, renting it from fields without consent, and Walmart and such shouldn't be carrying stuff without pros handling it. And under 16 shouldn't be playing without parent's consent either.

There are definitely way to many stupid, immature people playing our sport. We all know the safety rules but I've seen pros and all levels of players do stupid things that risk injury, and I'm sure it's not just newbies and under 18 year-old players doing stupid stuff with their guns. So every time you do, you're adding to the problem.

Solution? Your teammate screws around and shoots cars or something? Suspend him. He keeps it up, Fire him. I doubt this will actually happen as you're too preoccuppied with winning but if you want to lessen this problem it's what you need to do. You know someone shooting at others when no one's wearing masks, then Narc him. Report him to teachers, police, or if his parents actually care talk to them. It may seem bad at that time, but what will you say if he gets arrested, shot in the eye, or worse yet shoots you or someone else you care about in the eye? You're just as much to blame for that accident happening. If you don't do any of this, don't complain about them making a bad name because you're not doing a thing about it besides posting to people who already know it's wrong. And some people here probably do it themselves anyways.

[theraidenproject]

My parents support my paintball addiction, uh, I mean, hobby, but they shouldn't have to. I don't think I should be inconvenienced and hassled because some of those under 18 can't handle the reponsibility of a marker. Maybe some of those responding favorably to the under 18 restriction might look at it a little different if they were going to be directly affected. I, an underage person, sold my marker to another underage person, and bought a marker from another underage person. How would this ban affect the used market? Would I have to do paperwork and legal wrangling to have my mom technically selling my marker to his mom?

[shartley]

Originally posted by theraidenproject
My parents support my paintball addiction, uh, I mean, hobby, but they shouldn't have to. I don't think I should be inconvenienced and hassled because some of those under 18 can't handle the reponsibility of a marker. Maybe some of those responding favorably to the under 18 restriction might look at it a little different if they were going to be directly affected. I, an underage person, sold my marker to another underage person, and bought a marker from another underage person. How would this ban affect the used market? Would I have to do paperwork and legal wrangling to have my mom technically selling my marker to his mom?
This is an interesting post….

Let me start by saying that it is precisely because of the actions of others that ALL Laws exist. If common sense and respect for others was a trait that everyone possessed and exhibited all the time, we would not need the legal system at all.

We need licenses to drive cars… yes, even if you are 35, 65, or whatever. As soon as you reach the minimum age deemed responsible enough by each state is reached, a person must become licensed to drive legally. Then we also have to follow speed limits and all sorts of other laws that again, if everyone used common sense we would not need at all. But we DO need them.

I could sit and list such laws all day, but I think you get my point.

As for your parents being inconvenienced and hassled because you are under 18…. Paintball Markers are only ONE of countless inconveniences they face each and every day because you are not 18. Such is life. Paintball issues are no different.

And I for one don’t care how those under 18 feel about these restrictions. I know this may sound harsh, but it really isn’t. My taxes pay for the enforcement of our laws. And almost every time we see off field malicious shootings, and misuse of paintball markers, it is being done by people under the age of 18. And then there always seems to be an issue of what to charge the kids with (if ANYTHING), or what punishment should be taken, etc.… while if that person was over 18, the answer seems pretty clear. Double standards always seem to be just fine for kids when they end up with the better deal…… well, I for one am tired of it. If restricting these things, and enforcing current laws, helps the sport of Paintball and prevents these types of crimes, I am all for it.

Kids mess things up for themselves. It was not a 38 year old man who caused these problems. And you want to know another silly thing kids caused? The ability to purchase spray paint! Yup, most communities require you to be over 18 to purchase spray paint.. how silly is that?!?! And you know WHY, this is? Because the abuse of these products by those under 18 got so bad that authorities felt they had to do something to save lives. Again, this was not caused by some 38 year old man (note: my use of 38 is just an arbitrary number to represent adults.).

And before someone comes back and says that adults also misuse things….. that is correct. But adults already have laws to cover these misuses and their punishment is much harsher…. Not to mention, that those most affected (and causing the problems) were NOT adults, but children.

As for underage folks selling markers to other underage people…. I believe that this is probably illegal now anyways. If it is illegal for a store to sell a marker to someone under 18 without parental consent, then it would also seem reasonable to think that same standard would apply to ALL persons… it does with other such laws. So, I don’t see how any further legislation on this would effect private sales any more than current laws effect them now.

I hope this puts things in better perspective.

[shartley]

Originally posted by theraidenproject

I'm just thinking out loud here, I'm sure you've thought about most of the ideas I could come up with about this. If you're 15-17, though, (depending on the state) and have a license/permit, you have the privledge to drive yourself to a paintball store, but not the privledge to buy a new marker or a case of paint without a parent there? That is absurd. I would add more, and back this up better, but it's 1:47am, and I"m falling asleep.
You also have the privilege to drive yourself to the State Liquor Store too… but try to buy some alcohol. ;)

[raehl]

No one is more sensitive to the plight of sub-18 year olds who want to play paintball than I am. I'm only 24 myself, and when I was in high school I organized 70+ person recreational outings where the biggest hassle was making sure everyone got their underage consent forms signed and notarized. Yes, that's right, most places if you're under 18 and want to play paintball you need to either have your parent present, or drag your parent and the waiver to a notary public to have signed.

I'm also the President of the NCPA, and one of our main goals is to get more kids playing paintball. We even set up a whole high school league this year and do lots of work to help people get clubs started. I want nothing less than lots and lots of kids playing paintball.

But while I realize that kids think they're responsible adults, the fact of the matter is many of them are not. If I want to be able to have a fairly easy time getting kids to be able to have paintball clubs in their high school, the people who get to decide whether that club is allowed to exist or not have to think it's a good idea. If their experience with paintball is a bunch of the bad apples running around town misusing their equipment, then all of the good paintball players will not get their paintball club. Yes, it sucks that the people who do things right have to be inconvenienced, but requiring parents to be involved in a purchase forces at least a minimum level of parental involvement in what their kids are doing - or more likely, will discourage the bad apples from even trying ot buy the equipment in the first place.

Supervision WILL reduce misuse of paintball equipment, and reduction in misuse benefits everyone, especially those under 18 who are inconvenienced slightly by having to involve parents in their purchases (just like you have to involve them if you want to play at a commercial field or in a tournament.) You may only see that having to have your parent buy the marker for you is an annoyance, but that's not my concern - my concern is that if I don't annoy you, you won't be able to even possess, let alone buy, a marker at all. If we don't accept laws that require you to be 18 to purchase paintball equipment, we'll get laws that require you to be 18 to even HAVE paintball equipment.

The choice is not "Be able to buy paintball stuff, or have to have parents buy paintball stuff", the choice is "Have parents able to buy paintball stuff, or not be allowed to have paintball stuff at all."


- Chris

[theraidenproject]

Sharley and Raehl, you both make good points. I do think that something should be done to combat the rampant spread of stupidity on the part of many in the sport. I grudgingly admit that an under 18 ban, while inconvenient to me and my friends, would proabably serve the community better in the long run, as anyone genuinely into the sport would go through the hoops of getting paint and markers. Oh well, I guess I'll just grow a beard so I won't get carded. (Just for paintball stores, that is) :D ;)

edit - I am stil asking the question, how will this affect the second-hand market? Will I be able to personally buy or sell a marker? Or will I have to jump through legal hoops?

(and sorry for using the "jump through hoops" thing twice in one post :))

[raehl]

Ideally, this would be implemented by all of the paintball distributors adopting a policy to not sell to stores that sell to those under 18.

If it has to be implemented with legislation, ideally (and likely) that legislation would only target retail locations, and the second-hand market would remain unaffected. If it were to be affected, it would most likely be through some clause that regulates the transfer of a paintball marker to a minor through some general means other than sale. That seems a rather silly, ineffective, and excessively annoying, way of going about things.

- Chris

[ß.C.]

whoever thinks it should be classified as a firearm shold be beaten by a stick, makes me so angry that stupid people that don't know the 1st few things about paintball guns tell us where to catagorize our guns. STUPID SH*T, this is the 1st time I've ever been mad in a post, I want ot beat them personnally. And if I knew I were gonna die in a week, I'd seriously come after them and KILL THEM. BB guns are much more dangerous but they aren't firearms.

[shartley]

Originally posted by ß.C.
whoever thinks it should be classified as a firearm shold be beaten by a stick, makes me so angry that stupid people that don't know the 1st few things about paintball guns tell us where to catagorize our guns. STUPID SH*T, this is the 1st time I've ever been mad in a post, I want ot beat them personnally. And if I knew I were gonna die in a week, I'd seriously come after them and KILL THEM. BB guns are much more dangerous but they aren't firearms.
I can understand this… but I will also remind you that although bb guns are not “firearms”, they, and pellet guns, are often held to stricter standards than Paintball Markers by many people. And I would argue that bb guns are not more dangerous than paintball markers. Also add to that the fact that some parents seem to place more “importance” on the supervision of bb guns than on paintball markers, and you now have a situation that is prime for problems…. which we are seeing.

Where we get into “troubles” is when people want to classify paintball markers AS firearms, and put the same restrictions on them. I think this is a problem. But I see no problem with them being classified the same as other air powered “guns”, and many places do classify them the same. And following this line of thinking, I teach my children to treat our air pistols and paintball markers as if they WERE standard firearms. Because whether folks like it or not, they are pretty much the same things and can cause serious injury if used improperly.

I think because of the fact that it is too easy to become confused (for those not familiar with paintball), that we make sure WE don’t over react when others ignorantly misrepresent our sport or equipment. We need not fly off the handle and get all upset at them. What we DO need to do is educate them in a calm and rational manner.

We need to show the world that we as a group are more mature than those who misuse our sport’s equipment, and more rational than those who may want to ban or over restrict our sport and its equipment.

[Evil Bob]

California recently passed a new law with regards to victims of violent crimes, they can now sue the manufacturers of any guns used in said violent crime. The law is broad enough that if a BB or paintball gun was used in a crime in which someone got hurt, the victim could legally sue the manufacturer.

This law is so stupid and far reaching that Smith and Wesson is considering closing up shop and shutting down completely instead of continuing to operate under such conditions. Essentially the anti gun crowd will win if they can force the firearms manufacturers to shut down with threat of continued and repetitive litigation.

Unfortunately for you and me, these same anti gun nuts also want to ban paintball for being a "pro war game" that teaches young people violence and how to be marksmen for school shootings.

As much as I love California, its soon time to be moving out, the socialist party has taken over and all rational thought has gone out the window.

-Evil Bob

[ß.C.]

We need to show the world that we as a group are more mature than those who misuse our sport’s equipment, and more rational than those who may want to ban or over restrict our sport and its equipment.

BUT I WANNA BEAT THEM WITH A STICK

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Tell someone against paintball, especially it being played by youths, about your "beating with a stick" theory BC and they'll already have won their argunment without opening their mouths. The whole point is to get the idea of violence to not be associated with paintball, which is why incidents like the driveby paintballings and pranks such as the one discussed here are raising such furvor (anger, etc) on both sides. It makes legislators want to ban the game, it makes responsible players want to stop these jerks misusing their equipment so the game isn't banned.

The Smith and Wesson deal is weak because as long as the company is following all legislation and requirements they should not be responsible. A gun is a tool, unless it goes off by accident due to design malfunction it's the person holding it that is entirely to blame. Everybody needs scapegoats these days, it's lame.

Setting an 18+ to buy paintball equipment and making it illegal to sell even used paintball gear to someone under 18 is the first way to go. It helps decrease incidents of smoking as people selling tobacco don't want to risk the chance of large fines. The 18+ law would make the sport look good as safety legislation is being placed. It should be fine for someone to use their parent's equipment under parental supervision, but without these laws our sport risks troubles all created by the younger participants, and I got no problem putting all the penalties on them.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by ß.C.


BUT I WANNA BEAT THEM WITH A STICK

ROFLOL!:D

[ß.C.]

Tell someone against paintball, especially it being played by youths, about your "beating with a stick" theory BC and they'll already have won their argunment without opening their mouths. The whole point is to get the idea of violence to not be associated with paintball, which is why incidents like the driveby paintballings and pranks such as the one discussed here are raising such furvor (anger, etc) on both sides. It makes legislators want to ban the game, it makes responsible players want to stop these jerks misusing their equipment so the game isn't banned.

They wouldn't know that my attack would be paintball related, they'd just be a random guy attack someone with a stick.

[shartley]

Originally posted by ß.C.


They wouldn't know that my attack would be paintball related, they'd just be a random guy attack someone with a stick.
Okay…we get your point (no matter how inappropriate it is). I don’t think AO is the place to discuss the planning of, and execution of crimes. Like I said, we get what you are talking about and how you feel about it… I am just glad that paintball as a community is more mature than that, and has more common sense.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Evil Bob
California recently passed a new law with regards to victims of violent crimes, they can now sue the manufacturers of any guns used in said violent crime. The law is broad enough that if a BB or paintball gun was used in a crime in which someone got hurt, the victim could legally sue the manufacturer.

This law is so stupid and far reaching that Smith and Wesson is considering closing up shop and shutting down completely instead of continuing to operate under such conditions. Essentially the anti gun crowd will win if they can force the firearms manufacturers to shut down with threat of continued and repetitive litigation

Luckly, every single time someone has tried this the case has failed. I'm not sure about CA, but elsewhere several high profile lawsuits (some even backed by the Klinton regime) failed.

For the good of our society, I hope it satys that way - or where will it stop? You could sure the Beer manufacturer for the intoxicating product that caused someone to be drunk, the car manufacturer for producing a car that could be operated by someone intoxicated, and it could go on, and on and on...

-Calvin

[spacedtedybear]

In my opinion, if parents buy their paintball marker for their children who are under 18, they should be required to sign extra waver. In that waver should be a clause that holds the parents resposible for any sort of wreckless behavior by the children. The kids should be banned from all paintball fields in his/her state for whatever amount of time and be forced to attend safety classes and the like.

Frankly, CO2 and NO2 tanks should be locked away as if they were ammuntion for real firearms. If kids today are dumb enough to shoot other people in public, they're probably dumb enough to screw around with their tanks until 'BOOM!'.

[Ov3rmind]

I agree on the the idea that parents should be required to sign a form/waiver whenever a gun or paint is purchased by someone under 18. I'd be willing to go through some slight inconveniences myself to help the sport as a whole (only about two more years 'til I'm 18 anyway). Overall, I think we (under 18) should be allowed to own our own equiptment, just with several new laws implemented.

but without these laws our sport risks troubles all created by the younger participants, and I got no problem putting all the penalties on them.
You should have a problem putting the penalty on them. I know myself and many many other younger players are perfectly resposible to play this sport. Don't forget that without the sub-18 crowd, the paintball industry would go on a MASSIVE decline that would effect everyone.

[ogre55]

I have been reading this thread with some interest, however, at this point I have not contributed because all these because others have already made my points, however the following post (and thanks Calvin for giving me a reason to open my big mouth :D) requires that I comment.


Originally posted by cledford
I'm not sure about CA, but elsewhere several high profile lawsuits (some even backed by the Klinton regime) failed.


There is currently a bill on the table before the NYC legislature that would allow victims of gun violence to sure gun manufacturers. It seems the madness is spreading.
Thank god for that, but the quest coninues



For the good of our society, I hope it satys that way - or where will it stop? You could sure the Beer manufacturer for the intoxicating product that caused someone to be drunk, the car manufacturer for producing a car that could be operated by someone intoxicated, and it could go on, and on and on...


It could, it has and it will. This sad tale is again from my fair city of NYC. A mother of a pair of fat little...wait let me be PC about this...overwight adolescents has sued McDonalds because she fed them McDonalds food for ever meal, apparenly since they had teeth. Her claim is that she had no idea that McDonalds food was bad for the children.

I do not include this story to debate the merits of of the suit (there are none) but to show that people can and will try to sue for anything. Some (like this woman) because they are either stupid, or get talked into it by some lawyer, which also makes the them stupid. Others sue out of grief and a genuine feeling that they need/want justice.

My point is that people will sue for just about anything. It has been ridiculous. It will get worse. No one is immune.

Damn, and I was really hoped that I would be able to stay out of this thread.

Ogre

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by ogre55


It could, it has and it will. This sad tale is again from my fair city of NYC. A mother of a pair of fat little...wait let me be PC about this...overwight adolescents has sued McDonalds because she fed them McDonalds food for ever meal, apparenly since they had teeth. Her claim is that she had no idea that McDonalds food was bad for the children...




im sorry but if i were the judge id order the baylift to take the woman out back and shoot her...and then wipe the world clean of her genes... especialy the fat little POS that some people call "children" and being the fact i hate the whole PC "care about everyone and thier mothers" crap... its stupid, inbred,dumb, scum like that that put more fuel to my fire about why adding chlorine to the gene pool wouldnt be all that bad an idea... COMON PLAGUE!

I hate all things "PC" and all these people who try to pass the buck... TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS!
if you have to lie about what you did then whats your life worth? NOTHING!

[ogre55]

HoppysMag:

I think everyone can agree that this suit leaves alot to be desired in the whole logic/merit category. Your anger is understood, but I was only stating an outrageous (and unfortunately true) example to illustrate a point. There is no reason to get as upset as you are getting.

Ogre

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by ogre55
HoppysMag:

I think everyone can agree that this suit leaves alot to be desired in the whole logic/merit category. Your anger is understood, but I was only stating an outrageous (and unfortunately true) example to illustrate a point. There is no reason to get as upset as you are getting.

Ogre

im not upset at you, im upset at the fact that our society has declined to the point of this... im really not that upset, im just a really extreme hard liner;)

[Evil Bob]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
The Smith and Wesson deal is weak because as long as the company is following all legislation and requirements they should not be responsible. A gun is a tool, unless it goes off by accident due to design malfunction it's the person holding it that is entirely to blame. Everybody needs scapegoats these days, it's lame.

Yes, I agree, the gun is a tool like anything else you can pick up and use in a crime, unfortunately, the socialist republic of california is looking to do away with all firearms, they also declared that the second ammendment does not apply to private citizens, just goes to show you how far gone these people are.

Whether you and I see it as a tool and exercise common sense in the matter or not is not the point here, the point is that some people in high positions who have not one ounce of common sense have arbirarily given a potential victim a priviledge to sue the manufacturer of the tool used in the crime. I am just waiting for it to spread from the firearm industry to the automobile industry. They're doing a find job in removing all forms of responcibility from the individual, including the right of self defense, how long will it be before it affects paintball?

-Evil Bob

[ogre55]

Originally posted by HoppysMag


im not upset at you, im upset at the fact that our society has declined to the point of this... im really not that upset, im just a really extreme hard liner;)

Didn't think you were upset at me. You just seemed to be getting more riled up than neccassary, and doing so in public is almost never a good idea. ;)

Ogre

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by ogre55


Didn't think you were upset at me. You just seemed to be getting more riled up than neccassary, and doing so in public is almost never a good idea. ;)

Ogre


i express my opinions and views and worry about those things latter... cross that bridge after i burn it kinda thing... ;)

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Originally posted by raehl
I'm working on it (www.paintball-players.org) and hopefully we'll be up and running soon.

What we need:

1) No sales of paintball markers to people under 18.
2) No sales of paintballs to people under 18.
3) A significant fine to any retailer who does sell either of the above products to players under 18.
4) A moratoreum on the production of full-auto paintball markers, esp. as these are getting less and less expensive.
5) Industry self-regulation, including a standard sheet of information included in every paintball marker and with every case of paint sold. This sheet shoud emphasize the safety equipment requirements and legal consequences of using a paintball marker inappropriately. Kids *ARE* dumb, and you need to tell them that they're committing assault if they shoot someone with a marker because some just won't realize it.



Now, somewhat unrelated question:

Would you pay $40/year to support an organization that lobbied on behalf of paintball players?
- Chris

Ok, this is what I have to say about this. I'm in the 13-17 year old range, and honestly, my parents don't want anything to do with paintball. It's the same thing with most of my friends too. So basically by making those laws, you are saying that I can't play! I dish out $1000+ a year on paintball, and I'm not going to have anyone tell me that I'm not old enough to buy a gun, or I'm not old enough to buy paint. As someone stated earlier, the laws to regulate what people do with paintball markers probably allready exists, just there is no one around to enforce it. Another thing, you asking if we would pay $40/year, the answer for me is no. I spend thousands of dollars allready on equipment and paint, I think if it was that big of an issue, the manufactures make enough money to donate.


Supervision WILL reduce misuse of paintball equipment, and reduction in misuse benefits everyone, especially those under 18 who are inconvenienced slightly by having to involve parents in their purchases (just like you have to involve them if you want to play at a commercial field or in a tournament.) You may only see that having to have your parent buy the marker for you is an annoyance, but that's not my concern - my concern is that if I don't annoy you, you won't be able to even possess, let alone buy, a marker at all. If we don't accept laws that require you to be 18 to purchase paintball equipment, we'll get laws that require you to be 18 to even HAVE paintball equipment.

The choice is not "Be able to buy paintball stuff, or have to have parents buy paintball stuff", the choice is "Have parents able to buy paintball stuff, or not be allowed to have paintball stuff at all."

It won't slightly inconvenience me, it will make me unable to play. You act like you have control of the paintball industry or something. You are going to end up hurting the industry even more. I guarentee you they will have a decline in sales if you pass laws like that. The store that I go to will never follow those rules, and most stores I know of won't accept them either. You don't have to be 18+ to buy a baseball bat, so why have that for a paintball marker. I understand that they are different, but if you go and look it up, baseball bats have caused more deaths then paintball guns, I'm almost 100% sure of that. I'm not saying that those ideas are bad, but what I am saying is that they are bad ideas! Maybe they should have stricter restrictions on buying paintball markers, maybe they should have you get a license, but don't make our parents buy them. Most parents see paintball as a waste of money, and a bad idea allready, but if it will be a pain in the *** to buy paintball equipment, just forget it. Also, if you are responsible enough to drive, you are responsible enough to own a paintball marker, a car is more deadly then a marker, no matter if your parents get you a license or not, they won't be in the car with you everywhere you go. Just let us play our damn sport, **** everything else.

[Jonno06]

Saia is right.Passing such laws will enable teenagers now to be able to play,unless their parents will supply them with markers and paint. For me,and MANY other teens(which make up most of the paintball community),our parents dont really support our paintball lifestyle.

More than half of the people on these boards are teenager,THAT right there should tell you something. KIDS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

I am NOT going to be restricted from paintball just so you more "mature" adults can be the few,the proud,left to be able to play.

These laws will do nothing but increase the problem..


what we NEED,is to find a SOLUTION...not more PROBLEMS.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Jonno06
Saia is right.Passing such laws will enable teenagers now to be able to play,unless their parents will supply them with markers and paint. For me,and MANY other teens(which make up most of the paintball community),our parents dont really support our paintball lifestyle.

More than half of the people on these boards are teenager,THAT right there should tell you something. KIDS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

I am NOT going to be restricted from paintball just so you more "mature" adults can be the few,the proud,left to be able to play.

These laws will do nothing but increase the problem..


what we NEED,is to find a SOLUTION...not more PROBLEMS.

Um, paintball was started by adults and did just fine back then. First, just because it would make it tougher for some to play doesn't move me at all. There are plenty of kids out there who's parents will allow them to do so. Second, I'm not usually one for more laws - but they will not "increase" the problem. They *may* make you're life a little tougher until the age of 18 - but that's to bad. I went through the same thing when I was a kid. The funny thing was back then there wern't any laws - just common sense. My parents had to drive me to the store to buy the gun - why not supervise the purchase?

-Calvin

[cledford]

Originally posted by ogre55

There is currently a bill on the table before the NYC legislature that would allow victims of gun violence to sure gun manufacturers. It seems the madness is spreading.
Thank god for that, but the quest coninues.

Ogre

Ogre, For exactly reasons like these I *would* support tort reform. Then the thought of big business allowing bad products (real ones) to exist and not pulling them (like defective cars) - due to a calculated decision that WITH tort reform the cost of settlement/damages would be less then a recall- scares me back the other way.

I flip-flop back and forth on the matter daily :)

-Calvin

[shartley]

Originally posted by Jonno06
Saia is right.Passing such laws will enable teenagers now to be able to play,unless their parents will supply them with markers and paint. For me,and MANY other teens(which make up most of the paintball community),our parents dont really support our paintball lifestyle.

More than half of the people on these boards are teenager,THAT right there should tell you something. KIDS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

I am NOT going to be restricted from paintball just so you more "mature" adults can be the few,the proud,left to be able to play.

These laws will do nothing but increase the problem..


what we NEED,is to find a SOLUTION...not more PROBLEMS.
This it total hose hockey, sorry. Any new laws will not make it impossible to play the game. It will require parents to finally start doing their jobs again… parenting! And if your parents don’t want you playing paintball, so be it. This may not go over well, but I am sure there are many things parents don’t want their kids doing… and thus they DON’T do them.

As for kids not being the problem because more than half of the people here on AO are teens…. Another steaming pile of horse manure. The demographic posting on AO is NOT the demographic of paintball, or the only ones playing the game. I know that when I go to paintball fields (namely Adventure Games) there are girls all over the place. How many active female members do we have on AO? See my point?

And let’s bring in the fact that compared to kids, most adults do not GO to these types of forums. I have many adult friends and few of them do any more than skim the internet and send e-mails (if that). You can’t figure real world statistics and responsibility for problems on just internet numbers.

Also, I can not for the life of me figure out how the connection between teenagers posting on AO and kids not being the problem is being made.

These new laws have nothing to do with adults wanting to be the few and the proud left playing the game. They however, have EVERYTHING to do with trying to correct a problem that kids have caused for themselves. It is simple, if kids can’t police their own actions, the legal system must do it for them. And these laws also don’t say kids CAN’T play, but that they should always be supervised while doing so….. and that is how it should have been all along.

I can guarantee that these new laws or enforcing the ones we currently have, will not affect kids who are responsible and already have their parents consent to play and own the equipment. If your parents don’t want you to play, and these new laws will cause them to decide that you can’t play because they don’t want to supervise you or personally purchase everything you need…. That is THEIR decision, and you should direct your anger toward them. The Law did not keep you from playing, your parents did. After all, the LAW didn’t say you couldn’t play.

And if you get pissed at your folks for not letting you play, sorry I have only one thing to say (well two)…. First is, I don’t want to hear it. And second is that your childhood is a VERY short part of your life. 18 comes pretty quick believe it or not, and at that point you can do all sorts of things you can’t do now…… as well as be personally responsible for your own actions. 18 is a Pandora’s Box that too often kids forget comes with more than “fun”.

Now….for those that think Paintball will be greatly hurt by such laws because sales will drop and the number of players will drop to the point where they will REALLY feel it…… Sorry, not true. Now some of BE’s sales may drop, but paintball in general should not see any real problems. And contrary to what kids may think (and has been stated) Paintball was not a game made FOR them. It was created by adults and even without kids, it will continue to do just fine.

Is this saying that I don’t WANT kids playing? Hell no! I DO want them playing. But I want them controlled as well, and them and their parents held accountable for their actions. And their actions that can and have, hurt paintball far worse than passing stricter under 18 laws would do. After all, they ARE the reason these laws are being discussed. And that seems to be getting lost by a few kids here on AO. Adults did not just come in from the blue and say they wanted these laws, there was a cause and effect…. not just an effect.

Also, these laws would not be implemented in all communities. But I would not mind that one bit. And you know what? It would not affect my kids playing one bit. :D

[shartley]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
It won't slightly inconvenience me, it will make me unable to play. You act like you have control of the paintball industry or something. You are going to end up hurting the industry even more. I guarentee you they will have a decline in sales if you pass laws like that. The store that I go to will never follow those rules, and most stores I know of won't accept them either.
LOL It is irrational thinking like this that is the reasons many of children’s arguments fail. You begin by saying that sales will decline, but then in the very next breath say that stores will not follow the laws. So which is it? Will stores follow the laws and this causing sales to decline, or will they break the law and sales stay the same?

Honestly, I don’t see ANY real noticeable drop in sales for Pro Shops that would be caused by any stricter buying and using laws for those under 18.


Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
You don't have to be 18+ to buy a baseball bat, so why have that for a paintball marker. I understand that they are different, but if you go and look it up, baseball bats have caused more deaths then paintball guns, I'm almost 100% sure of that.
I am sure you are correct that bats have caused more DEATHS than paintball markers. But is that how we measure crimes? If the crime does not cause a death, it isn’t important, or does not need to be taken care of?

The ease of which an individual can vandalize, injure, or scare a person with a paintball marker is FAR more than that of a baseball bat. Most of these crimes committed with paintball markers would not have been committed with a baseball bat, and part of the reason is that you have to get CLOSE to your victim to do so. It is the “hee hee hee, I am not going to get caught” factor that enables a lot of these kids to DO what they do. It is also the distance involved that makes it easier.

No, your analogy is not quite fitting.


Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
I'm not saying that those ideas are bad, but what I am saying is that they are bad ideas!
You contradict yourself in the SAME sentence! LOL


Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
Maybe they should have stricter restrictions on buying paintball markers, maybe they should have you get a license, but don't make our parents buy them. Most parents see paintball as a waste of money, and a bad idea allready, but if it will be a pain in the *** to buy paintball equipment, just forget it. Also, if you are responsible enough to drive, you are responsible enough to own a paintball marker, a car is more deadly then a marker, no matter if your parents get you a license or not, they won't be in the car with you everywhere you go. Just let us play our damn sport, **** everything else.

You bring up two different issues. You use the argument about being able to drive a car under 18, but then use that as an excuse to not have to have parents BUY a paintball marker….. Please go right out today and try to BUY a car. ;) Also, there are already well established laws which are ENFORCED covering driving.

The problem is, is that there are also well established laws covering vandalism, assault, and other issues covered in the misuse of Paintball Markers…. but for some reason the legal system is getting a brain cramp when it comes to making the obvious connection with paintball markers and these laws. But while I see that enforcement of current laws would more than likely solve the problems we are having with underage abusers of the equipment, I don’t see how making tougher laws would HURT it or the industry. And now we see some kids crying about a reaction directly caused by other kids’ actions and acting like THEY (as a group) are not to blame for this…. it is EVIL adults… again, hogwash.

If it was adults that were causing the vast majority of these problems, we would be seeing outright BANS of paintball and paintball equipment, and not people only asking for stricter under 18 accountability and restrictions. But none of these restrictions would prevent kids from playing the sport. If you kids think THIS is bad, just hold on… once you turn 18 you will be suddenly assaulted with a WORLD of restrictions, responsibilities, and Laws that you have thus far been sheltered from.

Then you are also hit with the striking fact that once over 18 and living on your own, that it is not Laws that would prevent you from playing any time you want, but having to WORK and having to pay BILLS. When you are a kid, your money mostly goes to YOU and your fun, but when you become an adult, you work to pay for your housing, food, clothes, kids, etc. So these new laws would be NOTHING but a hiccup in your childhood, and even less in the grand scheme of life. ;)

[Tack]

I have to applaud Shartley for his above statements. The sad part of our sport is that even thought when I was younger I found it was easier to go to Wal-Mart and buy paint and gear, that is where many of the problems lie. As stated is earlier threads on this type of topic, most players who shell out their own money to buy their gear and own expensive set-ups will not endanger their hard earned equipment by using it for anything else besides what it is intended for. I agree with this statement except for the sad fact that I have personally witnessed some of this stupidity first hand.

I am 25 years old and have to common sense God gave me to know right from wrong. However several of my friends who are the same age, and some older do not have this sense. I have seen and heard their stories about playing in the dark near roads and shooting at cars, signs, and anything or everything they could find. I have never engaged in such behavior, and never will. The problem lies in the fact that there are a lot of people out there that would. This is where the under 18 crowd gets into the problem.

Many kids, no matter how well off you are, how smart, how good you are will feel the peer pressure to act stupid. I applaud you teenagers out there that feel you can, or have over came those feelings. However there are many upon many others that cannot. The reasons are as numerous as the stars. They want to look cool, they don’t think it is wrong, they don’t care of the consequences and I could go on and on. The fact of the matter is most of the vandalism, and assaults come from those kids. Many of which have snuck out of their homes, or their parents have no idea what they are doing.

Will forcing fines and regulations upon these parents force the children not to do these things. Yes, if parents of children who play paintball are faced with the realization that if their children are caught doing illegal things with their gear they will be held responsible, would open many of the parents eyes. However the sad thing about our country is that even with laws like this implemented there will still be children running wild with paintball markers.

How do we stop it? You ask. Well, there is no clear way to stop it. BUT! Creating legislation that will require parents or adult guardians to buy paintball markers, paint balls, and air tanks is a great way to start. The parents who like their kids playing will have no problem with this, while the parents who do not want their children playing will have a reason to be parents again and lay down the law. That’s right, the law. Many kids today feel that they have the same rights as adults. What you do not understand is that until you turn the age that your state had deemed responsible to be called an adult, you are nothing but a child. Your parents, your school, and yes any adult that for one reason or another has accepted responsibility for you may tell you what you can and can’t do.

Could this stop the vandalism, shootings, and injuries caused by wild kids, and yes even some stupid young adults? Not entirely, however it will put a major dent in the number of these kinds of illegal behavior.

As for the sale and trade of used equipment over the internet, Has anyone thought about where you have to go to mail this stuff off. Most of the time you can’t fit a paintball gun is a mail box. If a law is passed requiring the age of 18 to buy equipment, why not also stick it in there that you must be 18 to sell equipment as well. When you go to the post office you must have a parent or adult guardian with you to sign the forms required for such a transaction. When the marker is delivered a parent or adult guardian must sign for the marker.

The enforcement of old laws, the creation of new laws, and the participation of the paintball industry in helping state government officials to regulate the sale of paintball equipment to underage people will have a two fold result.
1: A serious decline in the amount of paintball related vandalism, assaults, and non playing injuries
2: A boost in respect, and a new found knowledge for the game by people who will see these laws in action.

[Tom Sparkman]

I've been following this discussion and every time I've marshalled my thoughts, I hit refresh and Shartley has posted and covered what I want to say, along with other thoughts above and beyond my little paragraph, that make me say:

"Yeah, what he said." :)

And kids, you can argue till you're blue in the face and most adults won't listen - why, because they've been there and know what's driving you.

A quote: "When I was 17 I thought my Dad was the dumbest person in the world, when I turned 25 I couldn't believe how smart he'd become" ;)

Tom

[cledford]

To be quite honest, these issuse have been going on for decades - the only thing that has changed is the medium. When I was a kid I accidentally shot out a neighbors window when I was out playing with a BB gun that shouldn't have been out of the house in the first place. My parents at least knew about the BB gun as you had to be 18 to buy it - so they had purchased it for me. They also found out that I'd taken out when I wasn't susposed to, which promptly got it taken away.

I knew kids while I was growing up who shot each other, innocent kids, pets, signs, windows and cars with their BB guns. To tell the honest truth, I didn't know one teenage boy didn't at some point blow something up with fire-crackers, snowball a moving car, egg a house, shoot something, or light something on fire that he wasn't susposed to. I'd even go as far as to say almost ALL boys in their mid-teens have some degree of vandal in them.

Enter the problem, must adults don't play with BB guns. A lot of adults would be PISSED if paintguns were outlawed or restricted. This brings to an important cross-roads - something needs to be done now to protect our freedom to own paintguns. I'd say (and I surprised to here this coming out of my mouth - I an avoid pro-gunner) create an "official" weapons designation of air-powered firearm and restrict the age limit to purchase to 18 and older. At least then parents would have to be involved in the purchase. Furthermore, since they bought it they could more easily be held accountable for it's misuse. I'm not suggesting registration, id cards, or licensing - but at least a minimum purchase age. I'd say that also any local laws that apply to airguns should also apply to paintguns. I.E. if you can't walk down the streets of your community with a BB rifle loaded and in plain view, then you can't with a paintgun either. This could have a negative effect on "outlaw" games but if I can only shoot real guns, air rifles and bows in designated areas (like ranges) I don't see a problem with this going for paintball also.

-Calvin

[cledford]

You what else I'd like to know? WHAT THE HELL THE ASTM IS DOING ABOUT THIS! Every time you turn around they are dictating some new regulation (um, my bad, that would recommendation) to the industry for BPS limits, no full-auto, size and weight of paintballs, what a mask should cover, safe FPS limits, yada, yada, yada. Why don't they get off of their duffs and require something useful? Like say to purchase a gun you have to prove goggle ownership or you must purchase goggles at the point of sale. This would be easy - bring the goggles to the store - walk out with a marker. No goggles, well come back or buy some. If parents are required to purchase the markers, and they find out about this goggle thing - again we've got a situation where they're being informed and at the minimum can't claim ignorance later.

Obviously the ASTM can't dictate law - but they do anyhow. By influencing the insurance industry - you are mad if you open yourself to litigation by not adopting their "suggestions."

-Calvin