Roller Trigger!! Concept to Product in 3 Days!!!

[AGD]

AO!

Here is your first look at our Roller Trigger design! We hope to have them for sale in the store TOMMOROW for those of you that want to test the protos.

The side plates bolt on to your existing trigger. You have to drill and tap holes with 4-40 threads to make it work. The kit has the two side plates, rollers and screws. The rest is up to you. It looks like something a shop could install for you and if you don't like it just take it off!

There are TWO configurations and only one is shown in these pics. Configuration #1 is for those of you with double finger emag triggers as shown. The roller looks like a bar bell so it will clear the hump in the middle and leave your magnet adjustment system in place.

Configuration #2 NOT SHOWN has a single roller that goes IN BETWEEN the plates for those running a blade trigger. We haven't made the roller yet but we are sure it will work.

I could not immediately get this thing to go fast for me and I think it definitely takes some getting used to. I lightened up the trigger pull and that worked better until our last battery died. These rollers are the same size as Chris’ but I think they could stand to be a little larger.

So here it is, what do ya think!!

AGD

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller1b.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller2b.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller3b.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller4b.jpg

[petefol]

that will work? it looks like the roller would be to big to easily roll your finger up and down.

[personman]

That sure is.. funny looking :p
I was thinking about buying one, but now the fact that I owe my mom $100 and I still need to buy things for my e-mag, and the fact that I dont really need that extra firepower, I'm not sure if I really want one.. It looks sweet though and if I had a chance to try it out and I liked it I would buy it.. any idea on the price?

[BTAutoMag]

i like the older version better. with it this way its like you have to use it like that, its too awkward to use any other way.

[darklord]

I don't like how the design changed, but it's good that you don't have to buy a whole new trigger. I can't wait to see configuration II! Thanks for keeping us posted, Tom.

[FutureMagOwner]

i like it but couldnt you not do it in a style similar to trigger pants but have it go around the back. it would be similar to trigger pants but goes back and when you screw it in it hooks to the other side or just the same as they work on autocockers would work too. i think there is a simpler solution to it other than drilling your trigger to get it to work

[Xerces]

i think you should take old triggers and make them like the protoype, you might even be able to do a trade in type thing. this one looks too big and looks like it wont work as well.

[petefol]

i think the point of this trigger is that its an easy mod to do to a stock trigger, the prototype tom originally showed would require alot of work.

[Kevmaster]

I cant wait to buy one tomorrow....for my non existant Xmag :(

[Boble86]

Will this work on the blade triggers by timmy?

[WARPED1]

No offense,still don't like it.I do like how,if you've installed it,you don't have to use it.Then it looks easily removable.Hell of a concept however,just not for me!

[Mossman]

I'll wait for a trigger like Chris'...that just dont look like it'd work the same.

Anyhow, AGD rocks and i cant believe how fast you tossed em together. I may be tempted to buy one for my soon to have micro EMag...but its gonna depend on price til u guys make a pretty one :)

[RRfireblade]

Hi Tom,
as a long time user of the "rub the nub" method,it's my opinion that the roller is FAR to large and protuding.For me anyways,the fastest method is to keep light contact with the trigger the whole time to guage your pressure against the "nub".It's seems to me,that with that config,you'd have to float your finger out there by the foller.Way to hard to master,never happen on the field.Good effort though.
I'd make 'em for blades only 'cause you don't really need the roller on a standard 2 finger anyway.

For what it's worth.(1.5-2cents)

Jay.

[JEDI]

Wait...What? Oh no, more contraptions.

[magman007]

thats um.....(trying to be nice here) Interesting?


I will deffinitely hold out and see what chris comes out with. IN the mean time, its ordering my self a nice new timmy trigger for my SFL

[nerobro]

A larger roller would be.. nice. Your finger will see a smoother surface. and it might be easier to go quicker.

Personally I've just used the hump in the dragun trigger to the same effect.

[cledford]

Man some people are picky! This is a proof of concept design - not a beauty pagent entry! I thought the other model looked "cleaner" also - but this was stated to be for "beta" purposes. I think it is obivious that they are trying to gauge how many people are interested and start a new trigger revolt prior to totally reworking the old trigger.

The other thing is -until the system is "blessed" there is no sense in making a permently modified trigger design. It could be a waste in a few months if NPPL bans the trigger.

Lighten up guys, I could understand if this was a final product and AGD was looking for feddback on the looks - but that doesn't appear to be the case. Remember - we're the only forum around with opportunities like these - lets take advantage of them, not bust AGD's chops!

I'll take several - I'm betting once they're gone people will want them. (Like usual - pump kits, z-grips, yada, yada...)

-Calvin

[manike]

Tom, To get the best from triggers like this you do need to make the pull quite light.

Some practice also helps, after a while you get used to the way it feels when it's going 'right' and can just sustain it.

manike

[JEDI]

Originally posted by cledford
Man some people are picky! This is a proof of concept design - not a beauty pagent entry! I thought the other model looked "cleaner" also - but this was stated to be for "beta" purposes. I think it is obivious that they are trying to gauge how many people are interested and start a new trigger revolt prior to totally reworking the old trigger.

The other thing is -until the system is "blessed" there is no sense in making a permently modified trigger design. It could be a waste in a few months if NPPL bans the trigger.

Lighten up guys, I could understand if this was a final product and AGD was looking for feddback on the looks - but that doesn't appear to be the case. Remember - we're the only forum around with opportunities like these - lets take advantage of them, not bust AGD's chops!

I'll take several - I'm betting once they're gone people will want them. (Like usual - pump kits, z-grips, yada, yada...)

-Calvin

Take it easy slick. This is a forum. We're allowed to have opinions. We dont have to drool over every hunk of metal Tom throws into the store. Calling something a "beta" test doesnt make it excluded from criticism. Sure its just an idea. Ok, no need to completely bash it. Tom is a smart man. I'm sure he knows that not every idea is gonna be welcomed 100%

I think its valuable that so many people had negative or "different" reactions. Its an honest opinion, and not the "I love crap on a stick 'cause AGD made it" attitude that sometimes runs rampant around here.

Besides, when did you become Protector of All That is Beta? :D

[Dragoon]

Well I'll take a 'blade' version of it for sure!

The worst case scenario is that I can't get it to work for me and I take it off.

Great work getting it done so fast AGD!!

Douglas

[shartley]

Originally posted by cledford
Man some people are picky! This is a proof of concept design - not a beauty pagent entry!
I would have to say that this is a bit much. ;) After all, Tom ASKED what folks thought. If he gets people who don’t like it for whatever reason, he did ask for people to tell him… right?

I am with those that see this as a good thing because AGD is trying… but think it departs a bit from the original concept to the point of being a bit too big to produce the same results. At least that is how it LOOKS.

Here is the new one:

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller1b.jpg

And here is the old one:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=600941

Now note how much larger the new one is. This is not a little difference, but a HUGE one. The original truly looks like it would work as a nub rolling thing, while the new one looks like it is a roller rolling thing. It looks way too large and clunky to produce the same results…. Heck look at the way one fits into the general design of the trigger and the other actually looks like it hampers the design of the trigger (I don’t know if I am making myself clear).

It is nice that AGD is trying to provide a “bolt on” solution for this, but honestly, someone with a dremel and a drill can make the original design. It is in essence a cut grove in the trigger and a roller placed in it with a pin.

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=600945

What is so complicated about that? Sure, it is EASIER to just bolt on the roller, but even with the new design, Tom already said you have to drill and thread the trigger anyway to put this bracket on. That is actually more work and not less for the customer.

The old design looks to be a total of 2 additional parts (pin and roller), one cut and one whole drilled…. No threading. The new one looks to be 7 new parts, and requires 2 holes to be drilled, and 4 threads be made. How is this a step forward?

Tom says the rollers are the same size, but I don’t see it (see pictures posted), and at a minimum, the roller is set WAY farther out.

If folks like this, great. I am only giving Tom my reaction to the changes. And like I said, the first one can be done at home by almost anyone with a dremel, drill, and hammer. They can even make the roller themselves with stacked small washers, and the pin out of a nail. It would look good too.

So, my opinion is that overall, the new one is a step backward from the simple and effective first design…. And that is confusing coming from a company that has always stresses simplicity.

(Added: I must add that the only thing I can see as a plus for this new one, is that it does not seem to affect the magnet system.)

[cledford]

Originally posted by JEDI


Take it easy slick. This is a forum. We're allowed to have opinions. We dont have to drool over every hunk of metal Tom throws into the store. Calling something a "beta" test doesnt make it excluded from criticism. Sure its just an idea. Ok, no need to completely bash it. Tom is a smart man. I'm sure he knows that not every idea is gonna be welcomed 100%

I think its valuable that so many people had negative or "different" reactions. Its an honest opinion, and not the "I love crap on a stick 'cause AGD made it" attitude that sometimes runs rampant around here.

Besides, when did you become Protector of All That is Beta? :D

Fair enough. But I would like to point out that Tom usually ASKS for appearance feedback when he wants it. In this case he has rushed a product to the market for us - to hopefully stimulate the sport in a slightly new direction. Does it look as "clean" as the original? Not quite, but that wasn't the point. I think people should look a little deeper into an offering then "Tom made this just for me and I don't like how it looks." I'm saying look, this was thought up, designed, and produced and will be on sale within 4 days and is to help move things for ALL OF PAINTBALL in a new direction. If you're looking for a pretty marker don't buy one - if your looking to help develop something new and exciting, over look the looks and give it a try. Think about it like this, the warp, z-grip and now this all suffer from great performance - questionable looks. One could even say the same for the power feed did as well when it first came out. AGD has a habit of producing products that push the limit to a new level. Sometimes they look "different." All to often they end of getting snubbed for the "look" and not the performance.

Here at AO we're AGD's official test bed and provide the company a resource that no other has. For this to be effective we can't turn our nose at every new idea that comes down the pike. AGD (like any business) is sensitive to public perception. If something id getting "downed" right out of the gate (before it's even been tried) what is the incentive for them to go forward to production? This is why you see the Zgrip gone - even though now they are the hottest thing going and SEVERAL other manufacturers are emulating them. Look at the power-feed - everyone I know hated it back when it first showed up - how many manufacturers have knocked it off since then?

One of AGD's (Toms) biggest irritations (I've gathered this through converstations and reading his posts- he hasn't outright said it) is that too many paintballers base way to many of their decisions on looks and not on performance - the Warp is a perfect example. I think that here we should give feedback on looks, but reserve final judgement until the performance is tested. I saw A LOT of support for the roller trigger before this thread, now we've got one that doesn't even have to stay on gun (designed to be easily removable) and everybody is down on it because it doesn't look like they thought it would. I'm saying that the beauty contest is LATER, right now buy it and see if it works FIRST.

Um, I'm not sure when I became protector of all things beta :)

-Calvin

[shartley]

cledford
First of all, Tom DID ask… LOL Read his post again to include his final sentence. ;)

As for companies being sensitive to public perception and getting discouraged when something they are making does not get high praise…. Come on…. If the company can not tell constructive input from noise, they don’t deserve to be in business… period. Also not everyone will like every product every company makes. And if businesses can’t deal with that simple fact, again, they don’t deserve to be in business.

Folks can not call AO AGD’s test bed but then act all indignant when something other than glowing reviews are given. Are we Tom’s test bed and feedback source or his cheering squad?

And not everyone was “down” on the trigger because of how it “looks” alone. I for one tried to take a rational view of it to cover many issues as I saw them and NONE of them were about how it looks alone. And I don’t see a single post here that was rude or malicious in nature.

(Added: You also bring up the power feed… well, if IT was met with skepticism yet went on to be a great product, what is to say THIS will not? You on one hand act like anything short of saying a product is GREAT will lead to it not being made at all….then show an example that not only was met with skepticism, but took off quite well. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways and still make a valid point. :))

[cledford]

Shartley,

Your post had very valid points - that no one else really made. You made critcisms based on actual factors OTHER then just how it looked. I think that is different then just downing something because you decide it doesn't look so hot. I think your post if what Tom was looking for.


I might have missed something but I thought this was a test, not a final product. If it is a final design then AGD will probably have to rethink it since the appearance is already hurting it with us - others out there won't be any more receptive. I understood it to be a trial and not the end product. In that case appearance doesn't count - just performance. I would like to see a final product more along the lines of the first roller trigger we saw.

-Calvin

[dre1919]

I agree with shartley's first post. I think this version is much larger and more clunky than the original pictures. When I saw the first photos of that mod I thought "Hey, I can make that at home with a dremel, pin, and a roller." That, and "why didn't I think of that?" I think if the consumer has already got to drill holes and whatnot on their own, then what the "kit" should come with is a pin and roller like the original picture one. That way, when the consumer gets it, all they have to do is cut a groove for it to sit in and drill a hole. I mean, there is already some work involved...why not do the modification to your trigger that provides the least obtrusive design possible? And the original design by Chris is still removable if you didn't like it.

[JEDI]

I think theres been several good points brought up in the past few replies. I for one think you can make decisions based on looks. I know how my Emag trigger works. I have an idea of scale, and looking at that roller, I can tell it looks too awkward. As far as performance, where is the proof this one works? Its different than the odyssey trigger. So in other words, its brand new, it lacks in testing, and it looks fugly.

I for one dont agree that we should just buy it, and then toss it after we dont like it. I dont approve of paying to be a tester. We are providing valuable info when we test something and offer input.

If Tom wants to venture in a new product, he should have to bare the cost of producing LIMITED models, then allow credible people to test them. I'm not impressed by "From drawing board to online store in 3 days". I think thats border-line negligent. Most magazines dont BUY their products that they review. They're doing the company in question a service. They might have to return the product, but theres nothing lost once finished.

[battlegroup]

Instead of making the bolt-on roller why not just make triggers with the roller already in them. I would buy another trigger to get this mod. How hard is it to just drop in another trigger?

[Fanatic]

i dont like the brass color
i would like it to match the trigger
could i use my tougue ring? it is a barbell after all
mmmmmm...intersting

[hitech]

Originally posted by manike
To get the best from triggers like this you do need to make the pull quite light.


Do you have any experence with hyperframes? If so, do you think they are light enough?

[manike]

Originally posted by hitech
Do you have any experence with hyperframes? If so, do you think they are light enough?

Yes I think a hyperframe would be light enough. Been a while since I shot one, but I think so.

[hitech]

Originally posted by battlegroup
Instead of making the bolt-on roller why not just make triggers with the roller already in them.
Cause that would leave me out (hyperframe). :(

[battlegroup]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by battlegroup
Instead of making the bolt-on roller why not just make triggers with the roller already in them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by hitech

Cause that would leave me out (hyperframe). :(

Sorry, So make both! One a mag trigger and a bolt on for the rest of the paintball world.

[cledford]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JEDI
[B]I for one dont agree that we should just buy it, and then toss it after we dont like it. I dont approve of paying to be a tester. We are providing valuable info when we test something and offer input.

First, how do you know that he isn't selling them at cost, like with the slug bodies?

Second - your comment about "from the drawing board to online store in 3 days" is flat out snobby in my opinion. Regardless of what you think about the looks of the kit, or what anyone else in thread has said AGD is trying to get something in our hands to test. I think that for a manufacturer to go to such lengths so quickly shows that they A) care about their customers, and B) really want to move forward with the product. If we were talking about a new gun here you would have a point, this is a simple trigger modification that might revolutionize the way we shoot our SEMI-AUTO markers and allow us to realize the speed that we all pay for but can rarely achieve. In Tom's case it's like he's damned either way. Normally they won't release something unless it's perfect and people cry because it takes to long - now he rushes something out to be at the for-front of the pack of people who will be doing this and he gets hammered because he didn't take long enough. I'll agree that it don't look great (compared to the first pictures) but again my point is - isn't this a beta? As far as not wanting to pay to test - I don't know what to say. Where else do you even get the opportunity at all?

With regard to the magazines - what does that have to do with anything? Magazines review final products and while they may offer some slight criticisms - it is usually unlikely. And never mind the fact that most articles are very biased and extremely under technical anyhow.

Feel free to have your opinion that it doesn't look great, I've said it now myself. I also acknowledge that in the last sentence of the post Tom did ask "What do you think" and I guess appearance is part of that open ended question.

Don't however come around here and get hoity-toity about not being compensated, having to pay to test, or products getting rushed through (in your opinion). First, no on requires you to even participate and second how do you know that you won't be compensated? AGD is THE ONLY paintball business I know of that FREQUENTLY offers trade-in and upgrade programs.

Everyone is so quick to rush to judgment these days – yet bases nothing on past behavior.

Jeez,

-Calvin


-Calvin

[Gunga]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
i like it but couldnt you not do it in a style similar to trigger pants but have it go around the back. it would be similar to trigger pants but goes back and when you screw it in it hooks to the other side or just the same as they work on autocockers would work too. i think there is a simpler solution to it other than drilling your trigger to get it to work

If it were done the way you suggest, the metal from the bracket would reduce the amount of travel that the trigger has...and thus most likely would cause manual mode to become inoperative. With the reduced travel, the trigger couldn't push the trigger rod in far enough to fire the gun.

And before you suggest it, no, you can't just lengthen the trigger rod. That causes other problems.

[JEDI]

Come on Calvin- Its a forum based on opinion. Thats my opinion. It doesnt do any good to argue people's arguments. It turns into a pissing contest.

I'm not trying to come off snobby. I agree, you cant have it both ways as far as "I want it now" , or "You made it too quickly" I've been guilty in the past of complaining about AGDs lengthy time line.

I have no answer to your remark about "being compensated". To some degree you're correct. I didnt literally mean we should get compensated for testing AGD stuff. I have in the past seen fairly well conducted beta tests that didnt involve the purchase of the object being tested.

I was simply being scepticle about a trigger that turned up in one form a few days ago, and now looks completely different, and is up for testing/purchase less than a week later.

Over all, I'd say you're correct Calvin. I applaud AGD for presenting prototype stuff to us. We're lucky in that respect. I for one just take it with a grain of salt, and would rather see the efforts directed to more important things within AGD. (there's another OPINION :) )

[FutureMagOwner]

hehe i wasnt going to suggest that but then to just do it like trigger pants and have it screw into the side or to have a gap in it where the trigger rod goes. and there is no trigger rod on other guns;)

[cledford]

Originally posted by JEDI
Come on Calvin- Its a forum based on opinion. Thats my opinion. It doesnt do any good to argue people's arguments. It turns into a pissing contest.

I'm not trying to come off snobby. I agree, you cant have it both ways as far as "I want it now" , or "You made it too quickly" I've been guilty in the past of complaining about AGDs lengthy time line.

I have no answer to your remark about "being compensated". To some degree you're correct. I didnt literally mean we should get compensated for testing AGD stuff. I have in the past seen fairly well conducted beta tests that didnt involve the purchase of the object being tested.

I was simply being scepticle about a trigger that turned up in one form a few days ago, and now looks completely different, and is up for testing/purchase less than a week later.

Over all, I'd say you're correct Calvin. I applaud AGD for presenting prototype stuff to us. We're lucky in that respect. I for one just take it with a grain of salt, and would rather see the efforts directed to more important things within AGD. (there's another OPINION :) )

Sorry, I just "caought up in the moment" when discussing these things sometimes. You've got some good points as well.

-Calvin

[Gunga]

Originally posted by shartley
It is nice that AGD is trying to provide a “bolt on” solution for this, but honestly, someone with a dremel and a drill can make the original design. It is in essence a cut grove in the trigger and a roller placed in it with a pin.

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=600945

What is so complicated about that? Sure, it is EASIER to just bolt on the roller, but even with the new design, Tom already said you have to drill and thread the trigger anyway to put this bracket on. That is actually more work and not less for the customer.

(Added: I must add that the only thing I can see as a plus for this new one, is that it does not seem to affect the magnet system.)

The problem with the original trigger (see pic above) is that it takes away your ability to adjust the position of the magnet that activates the Hall Effect Sensor...and that adjustment is a huge part of you being able to customize the E/X-mag's trigger pull.

On another note, the new version of the roller trigger may look ugly, look wierd, look uncomfortable, or whatever you want to say about it...but all of you guys who are saying all this negative stuff...have you actually tried it?

The answer is no. None of you have tried out the roller trigger.

Certainly, it may not end up being a 'gotta have' kind of thing, but shouldn't you at least give it a try?

Here's a common scenario...what if everyone based their puchase decision on mere looks? Certainly, that is a large portion of purchases today. If looks were the ONLY thing people based their equipment decisions on, we wouldn't have the Warp Feed today. When it came out, a lot of people said it was ugly, looked unwieldy, looked stupid, etc. Some still do. But it works, doesn't it? The Warp Feed isn't for everyone...but then, what is?

All I'm trying to say is give the roller trigger a chance. Try it out. If it's not for you, fine. Just don't condemn it because you think it looks stupid/bad/uncomfortable/whatever. I don't know about you, but I never look at my trigger when I'm playing, so I could care less what it looks like.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Gunga


The problem with the original trigger (see pic above) is that it takes away your ability to adjust the position of the magnet that activates the Hall Effect Sensor...and that adjustment is a huge part of you being able to customize the E/X-mag's trigger pull.

On another note, the new version of the roller trigger may look ugly, look wierd, look uncomfortable, or whatever you want to say about it...but all of you guys who are saying all this negative stuff...have you actually tried it?

The answer is no. None of you have tried out the roller trigger.

Certainly, it may not end up being a 'gotta have' kind of thing, but shouldn't you at least give it a try?

Here's a common scenario...what if everyone based their puchase decision on mere looks? Certainly, that is a large portion of purchases today. If looks were the ONLY thing people based their equipment decisions on, we wouldn't have the Warp Feed today. When it came out, a lot of people said it was ugly, looked unwieldy, looked stupid, etc. Some still do. But it works, doesn't it? The Warp Feed isn't for everyone...but then, what is?

All I'm trying to say is give the roller trigger a chance. Try it out. If it's not for you, fine. Just don't condemn it because you think it looks stupid/bad/uncomfortable/whatever. I don't know about you, but I never look at my trigger when I'm playing, so I could care less what it looks like.
I would like to start out by saying that I made note of the magnet adjustment in my other post.

As for the rest…. If Tom does not want to hear opinions (yes to include looks) then he should not post that he wants folks to tell him what they think. And if he does that, and people tell him, they should not be met with post about how no one has tried it, or that they are not giving it a chance, etc. After all, in my post I tried to address all the issues that I saw when looking at the trigger and the information Tom posted. I tried to follow the spirit of Tom’s asking for opinions.

I for one an not saying to NOT give it a chance, but I don’t think people should dissuade HONEST comments and opinions on items Tom posts and asks for opinions about. Of course no one has tried it… that is a no brainer. Tom said the beta versions should be available soon, but he didn’t ask that folks NOT comment until they buy one and try it. It is all about discussion and feedback… ALL feedback, not just those wanting to shake their pom poms.

AO has always been open to all opinions, now is not the time to try and make people feel guilty for posting what they think, even if it is not supportive of a product.

[magman007]

hmmm, jj, Why doesnt chris Use the adjustment set screw like timmy did? that way, we can all get our triggers nice and light, adjust them, and be happy! and, in most peoples upinion, it will look good. Also i ask, will Chris stil be releasing the other style? if so, why do we all have our panties in a bunch?


Also, his shooting method, has already been stated, to not be everyones favorite, so it still may not be for everyone.

[Gunga]

Originally posted by shartley

I would like to start out by saying that I made note of the magnet adjustment in my other post.

As for the rest…. If Tom does not want to hear opinions (yes to include looks) then he should not post that he wants folks to tell him what they think. And if he does that, and people tell him, they should not be met with post about how no one has tried it, or that they are not giving it a chance, etc. After all, in my post I tried to address all the issues that I saw when looking at the trigger and the information Tom posted. I tried to follow the spirit of Tom’s asking for opinions.


I wasn't targeting you specifically, Sam. I was just utilizing your post to illustrate some of the other considerations in designing such a product. Most everyone was focusing on looks and how they thought it'd feel. There are reasons why the 'new version' of the roller trigger looks the way it looks. I was trying to point out some of the design considerations involved in the roller trigger.

You've got some good points. And I did see the note you had in the previous quote. I thought I had included it in my quote of you (in my previous post), but I guess not. :)

Anyway, the intention of my post was for people to not get all hung up on the looks at this point in time. After all, it's just a prototype. Get it working first and worry about looks later.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Gunga
I wasn't targeting you specifically, Sam. I was just utilizing your post to illustrate some of the other considerations in designing such a product. Most everyone was focusing on looks and how they thought it'd feel. There are reasons why the 'new version' of the roller trigger looks the way it looks. I was trying to point out some of the design considerations involved in the roller trigger.

You've got some good points. And I did see the note you had in the previous quote. I thought I had included it in my quote of you (in my previous post), but I guess not. :)

Anyway, the intention of my post was for people to not get all hung up on the looks at this point in time. After all, it's just a prototype. Get it working first and worry about looks later.
Thank you, point taken. :)

I will add to that that I agree folks need to seriously think about things and try to make a constructive opinion post.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Gunga

all I'm trying to say is give the roller trigger a chance. Try it out. If it's not for you, fine. Just don't condemn it because you think it looks stupid/bad/uncomfortable/whatever.

This is where I have issues with the beta test process. If Tom wants us to be a test group for certain products fine. What happens after the "If it's not for you, fine" part? I would rather AGD develope their own tests, using their own employees, and then provide us with Great Reviews of its success.

Or, option two: Clearly state the terms of the beta test, such as; Buy my trigger, help with the development, give us feed back, and we'll offer a full refund if you dont like it. I know thats a hassle to deal with a bunch of returns, but thats not our problem. AGD is a business, and has to make certain sacrifices.

No one said compensation is out of the question, (super bolt I) but I dont like buying things on blind faith. I cant afford to just "try out" new stuff thats not tested. Why bother to post regarding "what do you think" if you're then gonna throw it in our faces that we havent tried it.

[hitech]

If you don't like the terms of the beta test, don't participate. Wait for everyone else to and read their "reviews".

I like the idea. I also think drilling and taping holes is easier than cutting a slot with a dremel, but that's just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions... ;)

[Aegis]

I am wondering if you couldn't accomplish the same thing with a "ring" on your finger, like used to play slide guitar, or something like this:

http://www.jetslide.com/images/palm.jpg

[AGD]

Hummm... looks like this one is going down like the Titanic.. Here is the last chance to save her. This is the single roller version on a blade trigger. Note that this is NOT compatible with current stock Emag triggers.

AGD

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller5.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller6.jpg

[darklord]

Originally posted by AGD
Hummm... looks like this one is going down like the Titanic.. Here is the last chance to save her. This is the single roller version on a blade trigger. Note that this is NOT compatible with current stock Emag triggers.

AGD

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller5.jpg

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/roller6.jpg On the right track... make the wheel a little closer to the trigger so it's lined up with the bottom of the trigger, and I'd buy one!

[jah871]

i like the first one a lot better. the mount on ones just look hard to fire. i could be wrong, gotta try one first!:)

[RRfireblade]

Well,
My opinion still stands.Way to protuding.Looks like it even makes the 2 finger uncomfortable on the bottom as it sharpens the radius where your finger would rest.
As I stated previously,that method works fine without the roller so to improve on that I think you need to maintain the original contour of the trigger much like the inset roller of the 1st proto.

Jay.

[cledford]

My opinion is exactly where it started - to many people complaining about the look before they even tried it. Now it looks like the project might even get abandoned :( Just what I was afraid of...

I'm not sure what good it will be on the blade trigger since I don't think anyone with an emag even has a blade.

Not to jump on the picky wagon, but I'm more them happy to put one on the existing trigger - but I'm a little hesitant to pick up a blade and go to all of the trouble to make it work in my Emag. Will it even work in the Emag? It needs a magnet I guess...

-Calvin

[Scootyd]

Ok I feel the need to voice my opinion on this one. Cledford is right in the fact that nobody has even tried it yet and it is already getting dogged.

My shooting style is to fan the nub on the double trigger already. I think that the version with the rollers on the outside has it's advantages over the roller in the center. With the rollers on the sides you can keep your shooting hand in flatter on the gun. The roller in the middle would force you to bend your wrist around to reach the roller.

While fanning the nub I normally hit the outer edge where the external rollers will be sitting.

I am waiting to try it and do think it will help me keep my rythm on the trigger. Plus it still allows me to adjust my trigger magnet and is easily removeable should I not like it.

Kudos to Tom for bringing out of the box ideas to life.

Tom if you decide to ditch the idea, I would still like to get one of the stock that you already have.

[dre1919]

I like the second one Tom posted (on the blade trigger) better from a looks standpoint, but I do agree with the points that were made about trying them out first and then deciding if they work well or not. I may not think the first trigger design Tom showed is very attractive, but I don't want to see the idea scrapped before I see some test results or do some of my own.

[Eric_AGD]

As a person that spent a little time on this project, let me shed some light for you. All though I work for Airgun, the opions expressed below are mine, and they may not reflect the opions of Airgun.

1. We started with Chris' design. The biggest problem being the adjustment for the hall magnet. It is easy to make a trigger with a stationary magnet work on 1 gun. We would like to manufacture more than 1 of something, so we need adjustments. That leaves us with roughly .100" between the front of the trigger and the magnet adjustment. That is a very small wheel and axel pin. And you cannot adjust the magnet without removing the wheel assembly. For the average user, It is difficult to remove a .062 pin pressed into a wheel, without damaging the pin.

2. The next option was to make the wheel on the side of the trigger, instead of down the middle, so we could make it bigger that a .125" diameter. The problem with this is still the adjustment. Which brings us back to the problem of pin removal listed above.

3. The third option was to keep the wheels on the outside of the trigger, and secure it in a different manner. That is where we are now.

As for the blade style trigger, as a manufacturing company it is always nice to make a common part that works in multiple situations. The main purpose of the roller trigger is to work with our current Emag double triggers, especially since we dont make a blade trigger for the Emag. However, we know that some people have them, and we made sure that the roller design would work with them also.

I understand that most of the critism on this is going to be looks. Mainly because it is an entirely new concept. If we were designing a new front grip, everybody would know what they like, of don't like, about its location, feel, size, and function, because they have experience with them. As far as I know, only 1 person on this forum has experience with the roller trigger, so most people cannot comment on the function. It is kind of a catch22. Looks are the only thing people have to comment on, but we didn't want to spend the time and money on looks if people don't like the fuction of the design.

As far as this project sinking like the Titanic, I don't see it that way. There we roughly 44 replys between the original post and the blade trigger post. Of those there were 11 unique posts that clearly stated they dont like it, and 6 that stated they did like it. I think people perceive it as negative because some people posted as many as 5 times, and were very detailed why they dont like it. Where as somebody that liked it, said it in a sentence or two. Therefor you spend a lot more time reading negative comments, instead of the positive. I am not saying it is a runaway hit, but I feel it is still open.

Beta testing. We have done the free testing programs before. The problem is accurate test results. If people spend their money on something, they are more likely to test it out as soon as they can, and they are more likely to let everybody know if they think it is worth the money. Free stuff doesn't get the same reactions. Not only does it test the product, it also tests the price range.

I haven't talked to Chris but as far as I can tell, his roller has a diameter of .250". Ours ended up being .300".

I hope that cleared some things up.

[shartley]

If Tom ditches this idea because of what people posed, it is Tom’s decision and he is responsible for it, not those who posted.

Again, I am sure he can tell constructive comments from pure noise.

Also, who cares if ANYONE has tried this or not That was not a criteria for posting thoughts on the matter. Tom asked for people’s thoughts KNOWING that no one has actually tested it. And I think it is wrong to constantly point out that folks have not tried it and somehow that makes their comments less valid (or wrong) than those who ALSO have not tested it but think it is great.

This thread was not to talk about what we think about other people’s comments, but what we think about the product Tom posted. And then Tom can read them ALL and make a rational and educated decision from a solid position. Then, as I said, if Tom decides to not make the product, it is not because some folks said they did not like it, but because Tom felt that for whatever reason it either needs more work, or will not be cost effective for him to make and sell.

You can NOT pass the blame on AO members speaking their minds… and less so when it was ASKED that they do so. That is totally unfair and could possibly cause folks to never want to post their opinions again. AO is about getting a wide range of opinions and perspectives. Tom uses that to help him determine the path of his products… and yes, that includes opinions that may not be supportive of every product or portion of a product.

[cledford]

Originally posted by shartley

You can NOT pass the blame on AO members speaking their minds… and less so when it was ASKED that they do so. That is totally unfair and could possibly cause folks to never want to post their opinions again. AO is about getting a wide range of opinions and perspectives. Tom uses that to help him determine the path of his products… and yes, that includes opinions that may not be supportive of every product or portion of a product.

Sam,

To certain extent you're right. In the future maybe certain parameters would help - I.E. "Guys let me know what you think - but keep in mind this is first generation", "this one isn't for looks - but to prove it works." Something to help shape the feedback. I personally don't like a product getting whacked (especially if I'm intersted in it) because people think it looks fugly - but then again I guess it's better for Tom to know upfront before investing to much time in it. I would have liked to at lease seen it tested, but oh well.

I'm getting the feeling now that the design posted (which I thought was a beta) is actually the final design. I still would like to try it out as the performance would greatly out way any heartburn over the "look." Unfortunately, most of the rest of the paintball world (Sadly even AO) seems to PRIMARILY evaluate things on looks first, then function - so from that perspective maybe it is dead. If everyone continues to look at and say "Yuck" then it will suffer a fate similar to the z-grip and the Warp. Both great products, one dead now the other frozen in development because they weren't selling well enough to keep them going. The funny part is that the zgrip and the pump kit are the 2 the 2 most sought after AGD products ever - AFTER their removal from the line up. And look how WDP and a host of smaller companies are making grips for Angels, Vikings, Impulses, and 'Trixs that all emulate the Z. AGD (it appears) has a real problem releasing products 4-5 years before the world is ready for them ;)

Anyhow, another thought about AGD products (unbtil the Xmag) things were never marketed on looks, but rather performance. One of the reasons AGD never needed a marketing campain was because the equipment sold it's self in the field. Some guy always shows up with something new from AGD and everyone goes "Man, that looks wierd!" and then once they see the product in action they become belivers. This has happened to me on many occasions -especially with the Warp. Anyhow, I think the roller trigger could have been such a product - but someone has got to be willing to get it out there for others to see.

Maybe a video of the HALO guys using it (the AGD version) to shoot like 19bps (with paint) would help.

-Calvin

[Dragoon]

I think it looks pretty different, but... I want to give it a try!

Bottom line is why not! I thought the warp looked pretty different too at first.

Tom, I hope you at least send a few of these out to Beta testers and not just drop it. I for one would be more than willing to give it a go. Afterall... If I don't like it I'll just take it off. Isn't that the point.

Douglas

[magman007]

No one as answered my question. Why cant you use the set screw like in timmy 63's blde trigger? It works, and it works well. Your all saying adjustment is key, well it works to adjust. the olny problem with them was the magnet being at a slight angle, and not allowing some people to fire in manual mode. I never encountered this problem.


Try using chris's design, and timmy's set screw. that will fly off the shelves, just watch. that idea makes sence!

[314159]

i just questioned how long the design would be legal.... but i do like it. ^_^

i hope this doesn't get scraped for good.

[hitech]

I hope this doesn't get scraped for good.

So do I. Assumeing it isn't very expensive I wanted to give it a try. And I only have a hyperframe that's capped at 13 bps.

[CNickerson]

All I can say is wow. What other company would think of making not a solid triger, but one with moving parts on its surface. The last thing I saw in trigger innovation was the Turbo Trigger(from dye, for angels) and this blows it out of the water. Don't give up on this Tom, let some people try it, and if it rips, who cares about looks (I mean, its a really small part on the gun, if it was a new kind of feed tube or something, I would definitely care about looks, but c'mon, who stares at the trigger when they see a gun?). It's just gonna look like a double trigger from a bigger hump in the middle from 10 feet away.

[FutureMagOwner]

i dont think it should be undone im just saying theres is an easier way to put it on besides having to thread the trigger an all sorts of other contraptions

[RRfireblade]

This is amazing,there's more fighting over OTHER peoples opinions than there's discusion of the product.
FYI, Looks factor into EVERTHING so deal with it.Before the Xmag all you heard was AGD rocks to bad there stuff isn't pretty.I suppose if the Xmag was milled like a aluminum brick offered only in black they would still be sold out. NOT!
Second of all,I really question whether zgrips and pumps are AGD most sought after products.As for z grips,it's 90* grips that are hot right now not z grips.Big difference IMO.
Third,I will bet ANYONE a large sum of money that if people start showing up at tournys with that GIANT obvously aftermarket contraption bolted to their trigger and shooting 20bps+, YOU WILL NEVER SEE ONE AGAIN.So looks are tremendously important.
If you really like it and want it,it must be made to apear WAY more intregal and not be a huge billboard saying LOOK AT MY BOLT ON ENHANCEMENT without which I'm only good for like 10bps max.
Anyway,sorry if that sounded harsh,it's not directed at anyone(and I mean that cledford
;) but I feel it's the truth.

Jay.

[Ghost24]

Hey Tom lets stay the course with this. Is it possible to have both versions tested by AOers? You can deal with the final appearance later. Lets give these ideas a fair evaluation period. I for one, are not sure if I want it or need this trigger. But trust me, if the feedback from the beta testing is overwhelming positive, one of those triggers would end up on my X-Mag in their current form and it would still be the best looking marker on the market. We already know AGD markers are the best performing markers out there. Function is more important than form, usually ;).

The best piece of advice my Father ever gave me is, "if you give a person room to succeed you must give them room to fail". So Tom, go give it the ole college try.

[thecavemankevin]

so, is this going to go on sale today?

I figure i will give it a shot for my hyperframe

[hardr0ck68]

im plannin on buyin one, i could care less about looks, im a man who loves rate of fire and if this is gonna make my shoot more than im happy to add it to my marker

[minimag2k3]

hey i dont no y people r dissing this part soo much it looks pretty cool in my opinion. i was thinking about getting it and i have a regular minimag i dont no theres a first time for everything and if u dont try n e thing you will never know whats its like i hope this dosnt go "down like the titanic" and also if it does i still would be interested in buying this part

the only thing i could sujest is trying to get it closer to the trigger itself and not so far away from it this way it wont cram up ur fingers inside the frame (not that its that big n e ways but just sugjesting hope this part turns out great :D )

[Xerces]

its back FROM THE DEAD!!!

is your period key broken?

[minimag2k3]

ok no need to get all nuts about it i was just talking about it lol. ok see it works now.

[minimag2k3]

ok well i bout this trigger part and when i got it i new i was going to have to drill holes, but i didnt no that it wasnt going to come with insturctions for the dirll sizes. i spent an hour seacrching for the rite size bit. i rly think you guys can do better then that. i mean its raly anoying when u have to drill into something that is the size of a babys pinky finger 6 times to get the right bit size. also what u might think of doing in the future is telling them to drill strait though the triiger an instead of giveing us 4 secew u can use the a bolt type one. this way alls u have to do is slide the pin part through and put the screw rite into the pin. i dont no just a sujestion, because after the drilling the holes you urself have to make the treads in the trigger what a paint in the *** that was!!!!! after it was done it looke reletivly well and it works just fine which is the piont of the product. so its a great product but its just a real pain in the *** to install.

[Xerces]

your question should be in the technical forum, please do not bring back dead threads.

[WarBUCKs]

Alright Call me stupid....

I can understand the rolling part, but how the hell is this suppose to help me shoot faster? Is that what it is suppose to do? Can someone explain a trigger pull for me... Do you rub it or something?

[Miscue]

It's more of a tickle than a rub... there's some technique involved... I'd suggest that you watch an action vid.

Getting back to the roller trigger, yes... it will help you to shoot at an obscene ROF.

[minimag2k3]

its hard to shoot fatser at first but i have small hands and i can hold it sorta like the z frame and shoot very fast with it so u can try it but it owrks for me. as for the roling down likea walk the dog shot its a real pain to do and it only slows u down when u shoot.

[Chronobreak]

did agd drop this idea? assuming they have where did the extra ones go and does anyone else make one or willing to?

[Q01]

what the therory behind a roller trigger how do they work, what purpose do they serve

[AGDlover]

whats the point of this?

[68magOwner]

for raking

[AGDlover]

o i c me=no rakey

[dwab3000]

i thought it was you pull the trigger and roll the one thing, which fired the marker, which could achieve a high rof...

[tony3]

No you move your finger up and down across the roller to make it fire. The first patch of these went out of the store like nuts, then after that, none sold, that's about what Tom was saying.

[dwab3000]

i think it was tourney legal...and i want one

[jdev]

who revives a thread like this, seriously..

I have one though, never installed. ill sell it for 5 million dollars.