Efficency

[Dslexik]

Over X-mas break in San Diego, I picked up one of those Radarchrons (the little yellow ones) to do some testing for my 68 classic. I loved the chron, works great, and really shows what my gun is doing, totally worth it.

However I'm not very happy with my guns efficency. I picked the gun up a little less than a year ago, brand new from paintballgear.com (TKO package). I've used it about 20 times. I was using a 20 oz tank with a 12" teardrop barrel and was getting a little over 600 shots per fill. I tested it 3 times with relatively the same results. A little after 600 I would really notice drop off.

I took off the barrel and etc... gassed it up and dunked it in the bathtub to check for leaks after the first tank fill. I found one minor leak and fixed it after totally drying, cleaning and oiling the gun.

I've checked for leaking out the back, down barrel etc, nothing. I know the barrel plays a part in this. Just wondering what other people get for efficency and any other ideas.

[BajaBoy]

it liquid going into the valve? one shot of liquid is = to 10 shots of air.

[battlegroup]

Off of a 20oz I would get 1200+ out of my classic mag. Are you getting a full 20oz fill? Weigh your tank completely empty and then after they fill it. If it isn't 20oz heavier you are not getting a full fill. I had this problem with a local field that would only give about 12oz fills in a 20oz tank. Also what velocity did you check your efficiency at? Before or after the leak was fixed? Are you running an expansion chamber? Remote? Both?

[PsychoBaller]

Battle..... lol... u shouldnt post things that are completley unrealistic and overexaggerated.

U will not get 1200 shots off of a 20oz Tank on a Mag.
lol

~da "that was insanely funny" baller

[la690]

yea, battle. impossible.

[battlegroup]

Say what you will, in scenario games I carry 10 110 round pods and a hopper and I have shot it all. Ask anyone from team shootist from Panama City Florida that have played with Bill! In a tourney I shot one hopper and 8 (110rd) pods in a game off a 20oz co2 filled by me to a true 20 oz. That's 1080 and I wasn't running out of air. Now I will say I run a 3.5 oz expansion chaber that will hold 100+ extra shots when I change bottles but I get well over a thousand every time. And I don't have a problem proving it. Phil from AO lives near me and the next time I play CO2 I'll have him as a witness. Well over a thousand!

Read these threads on what some other players are getting! I may be on the high side of this but I have been shooting this mag for 7 years, I shoot a good paint to barrel match and barrel with very little porting. I know what I get.

Especially read the one where the manual says you should get 400 shots off a 7oz. I checked my manual and on page 9 it says a MINIMUM of 400 off a 7oz.

Hmmm 7oz X3 = 21oz 400 X3 =1200. Are you saying Tom's wrong?

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13539&highlight=shots+20+oz+tank
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12782&highlight=shots+20+oz+tank

Da "I Guarantee it" baller!

Maybe you don't get full 20oz fills!

[PsychoBaller]

First off.. I use a 68/4500 Geddon on my SFL Emag.
On a technical note. A little info for you on Expansion Chambers since your comments are a tad bit off.

Expansion chambers dont hold that much gas when u change bottles, maybe a couple, but nowhere near 100shots. Expansion chambers are meant to expand the liquid CO2 moreso than having a Tank directly screwed into your gun, so that the Liquid expands to gas form before it enters. When u unscrew a tank, most of that gas will disapate*, an expansion chamber will hold between anywhere from 5-40ish shots. Nowhere close to 100.

Secondly, Temperature conditions also affect the amount of shots you get when using CO2, if your playing in hot weather the stuff will expand more easily, and in cold more stubbornly*. I guess I failed to notice your comment on living in FL so I will now take that into consideration (I tend to skim).

3rd. Those posts you used are not very good examples when comparing to what you said, when the max anyone said they got on a 20oz tank was 900 on good days. (the kid saying 1000 doesnt count for he was using a Palmer Regulator which is cheating :D )

#4, Mocking is not the best way to win an argument.
#5, Don't try so hard to impress people by explaining who you know and such, just shows weakness that you are trying to hard to prove a point, just use facts. If you need others to back you up, than it doesnt suggest a very strong moral or strength in personality (glad I minored in Psychology - really help in the long run)

#6, and best of all.... "you SHOULD get 400 shots off a 7oz"... not "you WILL get" many manuals only provide averages of what expected performance should be. with different setups and additions comes varied performance.

~da "not completely incorrect, but not entirely right in earlier post" baller

[battlegroup]

First, I use the largest expansion chamber out there, a 3.5 ounce bottle with a cooper-t bottom line on off. No baffles, no extra junk, just a verticly mounted 3.5oz tank. There is a lot of room there for air. Plus, I don't use an anti sipon so there is the possibility of sucking some liquid up there that doesn't initially expand. And I know I get liquid up there because when I degass my gun at the end of the day, sometimes I get frozen liquid out of the expansion chamber. Unless my bottle is completely empty I should have at least 800psi of air (the pressure of a bottle with liquid and gaseous co'2 in it.) So I should have 3.5 oz of CO2 at 800psi. I have forgotten to turn on my on/off after putting a new bottle on and shot half a hopper. So yes about a hundred. The last few had drop off, that's how I knew to look for the problem.

Second, and my biggest point/fact. The manual says a "MINIMUM of 400 shots off a 7oz"(taken directly out of my automag manual page 9). It doesn't sound like a "you SHOULD get 400 shots off a 7oz"...i'm sure they did testing to get this number. This right here proves that It is possible get 1200 shots off a 20oz tank with a large expansion chamber. Even if it was a "should", then I "should" get close. Not "completley unrealistic and overexaggerated." Either that or Tom isn't doing the research on his guns before he prints the manual, and we both know that isn't true by the reputation of AGD.

Third, I use a palmer sideline reg in addition to the expansion chamber but i don't see how a second reg improves my efficiency? I use it for consistency

Forth, I clean and oil my entire gun after every day of use. I change bolt springs and orings often. I polish my barrels with Mothers Mag and aluminum polish every couple of weekends to make sure there is no build up. If your gun or barrel is dirty you will lose efficiency.

Fifth, How was I trying to impress you with who I know. I mentioned the team I play with the most (which I guarantee most of you have never heard of, but you could find their website) because there are a lot of people on the team (scenario team) that see how much paint I use on a 20oz. Second an AOer (Phil) lives near me, I don't know the guy. we have sent a couple of e-mails back and forth but he could be an unbiased third party to prove my claim? How am I throwing names around?

Sixth, If you mock, you get mocked!

Seventh, so what if you use an armageddon, I do too now an 88/45 that I will be putting on my x-mag when it gets here, we are talking about CO2. All that tells me is you may not know much about CO2 if all you use is HPA. I used a 20oz bottle for 4 years.

Eighth, how did the threads not prove my point. The first had the quote about the manual and the second showed someone else getting over a thousand (which you immediatly dismissed) No one thought he was riduculous. Plus do the math.
"i used a 14 oz last wednesday, shot 750 and hadnt dropped yet. maybe im just effecient. who knows." (Third to last post in the second thread) That's 1071 off a 20oz
"I get like 700-800 off my 16oz with 5 stage expansion with macro!!!!!"(next to last post in the second) That's 1000 off a 20oz.
"i got like 600-700 on a 12oz with a 14" SP AA."(last post in the second thread)Do the math and that's 1166 of a 20oz.
That's three other people in one thread that with their set ups got greater than 50 balls an ounce. which on a 20 would beover a thousand.

I still claim on my set up I get over 1200 shots on a 20oz tank. If you don't get that much, get a new setup. If you want to see it come on down, I'd be glad to show you.

BTW how much do you think I should get?

[ghideon]

Before I got my EMag my Tippy 98 was getting 1500 shots off of a 20z. Palmer male Stab and anti-siphon. Tippmann's aren't exactly known as the most efficient guns (nor are Mags).

[rikkter]

why do peopel argue about the littlest thigs

he may get 1200 shots off his 20 oz.(WHICH IS BELIEVABLE) if so. GOOD FOR HIM. why argue about it? psycho,the guys showing you facts left and right. even offered to PROOVE it to you.. like he said. do the math

[ShooterJM]

I ran a 14 oz. Verticle mount and stablizer. Mostly used in 50-80 degrees. Off a true fill I rarely get less then 750. I averaged somewhere around 800-900.

Out of curiosity are you taking your tank off after every game? You can blow off a lot of gas doing that.

EDIT: I shoot 250fps too

[athomas]

I used to get about 650 shots off a 12oz CO2 tank. That's approximately 55 shots/oz. Based on that a 20oz tank would give 1100 shots.

battlegroup is not off the mark based on my observations, especially if he is shooting at a slightly lower velocity or is using a good barrel for the conditions and paint.


Dslexik:

It appears you are suffering from severe inefficiencies somewhere. The teardrop barrels aren't the most efficient barrels to use on the mag to begin with. Because of the large amount of porting, they require a greater amount of CO2 to get the ball up to final velocity in a shorter distance. If you are shooting a ball that is too small or too large for the barrel, the inefficiency is exagerated.

Check that you are getting a full 20oz of CO2 in your tank during a fill as well.

[hitech]

In testing I got 500+ shots of a 2000 psi/68ci fill with a level 10 classic mag. Just adding my stats. :D

[Dslexik]

Hey guys thanks for the input (and the debate).

For the questions asked....

I do have an ACI expansion chamber, (sorry no pics) and my 20oz has an anti-siphon and smart parts on-off valve. And I know I'm not getting CO2 in the gun, I've had that before and know the difference. I don't unscrew the tank after games, just turn the knob off. I checked the tank for leaks after a full fill and couldn't find any.

I don't know if I am getting a true 20oz fill, gonna have to check that next time. I was using marbalizer at the time of testing, which I thought was a very good paint match. I usually use JT which seemed a little better.

I consistently chronoed at 280 every time, hopefully the chrono isn't off. I'm gonna test the gun again now that I'm back in Hawaii. I usually did a little better out here but not much more.

Thanks again

[battlegroup]

I usually chrono below 280, (field limit). I get about 60 shots per ounce. I try very hard to get a good paint to barrel match and I polish the inside of my barrels all the time to make sure they are clean with no build up.
Dslexic I think you have a small leak somewhere or not getting a full 20oz fill. Get a scale and weigh your tank empty and after they fill it. If it's not 20oz heavier you are getting gyped at the fill station!